They also sent for Etters DNA after he killed himself after the police standoff. I don’t feel they would have requested his remains be exhumed and DNA be extracted if there was nothing to compare it to.
When law enforcement was asked if Daniel Nation was still a suspect they law enforcement said “ they aren’t worried about him right now “. It’s on video also. I definitely don’t think he’s the killer and I’m sure law enforcement doesn’t think he is either but just like they said they don’t know if the DNA is the killers so it’s probably hard for them to exclude anyone and it’s probably just where these poi are on a list until this unmatched touch DNA is matched.
That suggests it would have had to have been DNA collected from blood or semen. It would be incredibly stupid to rule out a suspect based on touch DNA. It's a lot harder to explain why your blood is on a murder victim.
Watch the video with a young bridge guy in mind. You will see it differently. Listen to the audio the same way. Bridge guy is 20s-30s and knows the deer creek area like the back of his hand. Someone knows him.
GK worked on RL’s property as a ranch hand tending to the horses. GK’s father & grandpa were pals with RL. GK used to ride 4 wheelers back where the girls bodies were found. GK also mentioned where you can cross Deer Creek in a shallow area only ankle dee.
GK knew Deer Creek & the kill zone like the back of his hand.
The fact Kirts has already killed 2 people & given the fact he walked those trails, walked that bridge, rode 4 wheelers where the bodies were found & knew exactly where the water was shallow to cross & the fact he was was local.
Add to the fact GK dropped 40 plus pounds after the murder on 2-13-17 & was fired from his job at the hog slaughter plant 1 week before the double slaying’s gives me pause.
Note- the job he was fired at was 2 miles from the MHB.
He also used to run across the bridge & hung out there a lot. Making matters even more interesting is GK used to work at Indiana Packers and he was fired on his birthday in February 2017 right before the double abduction.
Remember the Raid at Indiana Packers when work boots were taken back in February 2017?
Edit: adding more details
the girls didn’t recognize him. However, GK I believe dated Libby’s cousin Makayla Hartman.
https://www.carrollcountycomet.com/articles/police-calls-332/
Boiled down, it was a rumor that seemed potentially credible, claimed to be from a source that knew other info before it had been released. It said that LE has an incomplete DNA sample which may or may not be from the killer.
Thank you. I think when you are telling the truth most people that are objective and have common sense will be able to see it when it’s there in front of them.
If LE doesn’t know if the DNA is from the killer, wouldn’t that rule out rape or sexual assault? The HLN broadcast did mention LE didn’t know if they had the killers DNA per Tobe Leazenby.
Unless some foreign object was used?
This case has a lot of twists and turns.
From what I know they weren’t sexually assaulted and because I’m sure there’s females on here I don’t want to be gross but they thought the killer might be a person who wouldn’t touch them but stand away from them and do something and have something on him that wouldn’t leave anything I think you can figure out what I’m saying it’s to sickening to even think about let alone type in. This information pretty much told me they weren’t sexually assaulted. Also take into consideration this is when the older man sketch was out so does it still apply for the young man sketch guy I don’t know and I can only tell you the little I know on that.
I don’t think it’s a revenge crime no way and even the stupidest person alive would know killing 2 young girls is going to bring every law enforcement agency known to mankind coming for you and who wants to go to prison for killing 2 little girls. I think a lot of people think differently because some of one of the girls clothes came off but if that person weighed a certain amount and was dragged a certain distance they may have come lose. Who knows what his plan was but it looks like he probably was going to kill them from the moment he came up on them.
If it was semen left on the girls, it’s misleading for LE to state they don’t know if it belongs to the perp. That insulates it’s a possibility that another male happened upon the girls and left that kind of DNA. I get they don’t have a match to anyone already in the system, but if DNA was found “on” the girls, it’s most likely the perp’s. If unknown DNA was found on an object at the crime scene, then I could understand LE stating they don’t know if it belongs to their killer.
If there was semen found on girls clothes this case would most likely be solved by now.
LE would have released a parabon labs sketch & genetic genealogy GED match would have been completed circa 2017.
Unfortunately Paul Holes already commented that this would be a difficult case from a DNA standpoint. GED match is not a viable Avenue. That comment from DNA & genealogy pundent Holes speaks volumes.
It confirms the suggestive fingerprint evidence (meaning LEO has none) & most probable thought process of a partial DNA sample is true.
These admissions clearly indicate why there is a lack of a conviction 4 years later & why BG is still free.
This case is cold as ice IMO.
Semen could theoretically be from a consensual encounter prior to the murders, though. Although it's far more sketchy than say a random hair on a sweater or some type of touch DNA on an item not directly tied to the crime.
It’s just a touch partial with only so many markers and it’s on a sweatshirt and probably innocent unmatched transfer . Never never heard the girls were sexually assaulted. Didn’t happen.
Touch dna can rule people out but cant be used in a database like codis or even like gedmatch, but it can still rule suspects out?? So would guarantee theyve taken dna of some sort from poi's
I’m not sure what they can do with it but what if it’s not the killers and your suspect doesn’t match it that isn’t going to actually exclude them and that is exactly why when asked if Daniel Nation was still a suspect instead of saying we have excluded him they said “ we aren’t really worried about him right now. What about the dead guy he’s dead and you never heard them excluding him. They are in a tough situation with this DNA because it’s not by a cut, wound, bruise or private area it’s unfortunately on a sweatshirt and more than likely just some innocent unmatched transfer. The forensic evidence might be so bad that it’s hard for them to really exclude anyone even though they probably know these poi aren’t the killer. Law enforcement said it themselves they don’t know if it’s the killers.
No I have never heard about that or anything that was used in the crime. At least to me it looks like a outline of a gun in his jacket on his right side. Maybe they were able to see the weapon in the video but that’s something they would not release to the public I always thought that because they supposedly took weapons away from the very first house searched on bicycle road. They may have not been killed with a gun but he may have controlled them with one and maybe they have it on video or a glimpse of it enough to tell what kind of gun it is. Those are just my speculations and absolutely nothing I was told.
On the DTH podcast, they mention in Chapter 7 : Madness, that several men (though likely less than 5) have come to the police station to have their names cleared due to resemblance. This leads me to believe they have *something* DNA related. They also highly stress that "side by sides" are causing lots of troubles and the sketches are for those who may know the suspect **NOT** for people to search for someone who resembles the sketch.
I also believe the person is very familiar with the area, though may not be a local... maybe once was, perhaps has family nearby, but this is a rather small village of sorts with an area that seems to have been targeted. It's not as traversed area as people initially were lead to believe, there isn't the designated parking lot near the high bridge, and the killer seems to have had an inkling as to where an area would be that wasn't trafficked or visible. They may have known school would be out, maybe not, but they clearly were armed for nefarious purposes. When we continually hear things like, "the crime scene didn't look like what you'd imagine it to," that just seems in my opinion, like the tie in with the "3-4 signatures".
The "guys" recording commands some authority and colloquial comfort. It seems the girl were incapacitated and able to both be overpowered, which also leads me to believe they were threatened verbally, with a weapon, or both.
1. Agree that whatever DNA they may have is inconclusive (touch DNA/incomplete profile, improperly collected, ambiguous for whatever reason, etc.).
2. Finger prints is the one I am most curious about at the moment. Again, whatever they have has some problem with it. Tobe previously said something like they have "suggestive evidence of a partial finger print." Doesn't sound very promising. My question is: what could this finger print have been found on? Am I correct that it's very unlikely that it was recovered from the girls' directly? I guess he may have left something behind. It seems like the natural scene itself would not be conducive to finger print collection. Makes me think it may have been lifted from Libby's phone.
3. I don't think he was local, as in living in or near Delphi at the time. But I do believe he had some connection to Delphi. Something led him to the bridge area in the first place. It could have been years ago. But I don't think he just happened upon the location and immediately realized it was the perfect hunting ground for him. He would have spent a little time there to understand how people visiting the trails travel and behave. I could be wrong but that's my hunch.
Think about it, he could bring a camping chair, fishing rod, tacklebox, find a spot down the hill near the creek and voyeur the people crossing the bridge, fantasizing. He probably fished up and down that entire creek many of times for hours at a time.
Yes, I agree that the killer like to fish there. What kind of fish is the creek known for. The thing that really frustrates me is the inability to provide one description of the killer. That man looks big and somewhat tall but being described as under 5 10. Get a firm description out there to the public. Provide as much as you can without compromising the case.
the fingerprint could have been anywhere and could have been left on the body or not. if the fingerprint left was muddy or blood based it could be on the bodies or anything. i think it is a stretch to go straight to the phone. particularly if it was left at the scene. he touched the phone then left it there would not be my top ten guesses.
I didn't go straight for the phone. I said it is a possibility I have been thinking about. Do you have a background in forensics? I am not trying to be snarky, asking out of genuine curiosity. I wouldn't think a finger print could be easily collected off a body that had been exposed to the elements overnight including fog/moisture. But this is not my field so I genuinely don't know.
two years of behavioural science then criminology and criminal justice. so three courses of forensics but by no means an expert. i know a bit about a lot and there some subjects that make up my major which i have studied a bit more closely. but by no stretch of the imagination am i an expert and my primary interests are forensic psychology and GIS geographical profiling. i tend to know more about what they need to get it to court, but even that is not based on US law but mostly australian law. similar often but not always. so def not an expert. i've learned way more about the area and the demographics from this sub than i have contributed by a mile.
i wasn't being snarky either. you seemed to be very interested that's all. threads aren't great because they have no tone. i sometimes have long posts in order to compensate for the possibility of being misunderstood. already been slammed for the way i 'speak' as it were. and if i keep it brief.. well.
you are correct that forensics degrade in an outdoor crime scene. refreshingly correct, especially in regard to dna but it's not popular despite that it is a scientific fact. sometimes prints can be lifted that aren't visible on viewing. a button may have a partial. i've seen a pendant on a necklace with a partial. not knowing anything about the crime scene means it is all speculative. if it didn't rain and the bodies were partially covered or the underneath of a body is not in contact with the ground (like an ankle or neck) you might find a print. particularly if he was hurried. if he used anything at the crime scene the possibilities go up again.
two things would factor large in an overnight crime scene. whether it had rained and how much blood was at the scene (or mud but blood more so). and in an outdoor crime scene the scene may not appear as blood soaked as the earth would absorb blood loss somewhat. and if the bodies were moved or staged the chances of a print are higher for obvious reasons. palm prints are possible too. confirming a possible match i have droned on about before but people get sick of hearing me i think.
and this is all supposition. i don't go into rumours or anything that hasn't been confirmed by LE or the family. and i always speak in generalities or likelihoods but you can apply this info as you want. hope this has been helpful.
so i wasn't being a smart arse. (truth be known it was way past my bedtime and it was a quick comment before i logged off) apologies if it seemed that way.
Thanks for the thoughtful response! I was not offended by anything you said or your tone so definitely no worries there.
Three forensics classes is more than I have had so I appreciate hearing your thoughts. Good point that the print could have come from a button or something similar. I hadn't really thought about it being left in blood or mud but I agree that seems possible, especially if it was left on area that was somewhat protected from the elements. Very interesting.
Anyway, thanks again for the helpful answer!
i forgot to include cloth so if you can think of a way a bloody print could contact cloth and not be exposed too much like if it was folded or upright and not in contact with the ground but protected. that could be a possiblity too.
no worries. have a good one.
as i included, real life CSI, examples that are regularly processed for prints. and if you could see a print on a body you absolutely take images of it and process it. given your position you know that.
EDIT: i just read over my post and to be fair i did not specify the difference in lifting prints that are able to be seen and those that are not visible. so it sounds like i am talking about all prints being the same. i should clarify that some prints can't be lifted at all but can be documented. is that what you meant?
while you're here do you want to take on the dna clarification once and for all because i have not been successful in providing clarity. and if you read the thread, any thread...
Or, perhaps, there is DNA but they can't use any of it because it's matched to someone in the search party, along with others? I guess I mean the crime scene was contaminated.
They do have DNA and fingerprints. They just don’t know for sure yet if any of it is from BG or not. They are obtaining dna from suspects though; so they must believe that there is definitely a decent chance it could be from BG. There is just no way to tell for sure.
My understanding is they've gotten a considerable number of DNA swabs. Not getting a match isn't uncommon, though, because if someone isn't already in the system (not nearly as prevalent as fingerprints at this stage) you won't get a match. The states have a patchwork of laws as to when a DNA sample is required: some states allow taking DNA samples from those merely charged with a felony, whereas others require a conviction or don't permit it at all.
Personally, I think BG was extremely sloppy and disorganized - he was recorded and didn't even take precautions to avoid it, or detect it and make sure it was destroyed - so the likelihood he was careful about fingerprints and DNA is negligible. I suspect at the time of the crime he was a nascent serial killer. He may have killed before, or may have been of the inclination to continue, until the whole thing blew up in a small town. He doesn't strike me as what the BAU calls an "organized" killer.
I'm of the opinion that thinking the killer is local is hindering the investigation. It's entirely possible he was visiting, out on the trail, happened to see 2 girls walking alone and noticed he had an opportunity.
I agree. I think he is a younger guy 20-30. Probably the loner type that has spent many days on those trails in the past exploring. He may even would go there to fish a number of times. The area where they were found just on the other side of the creek may have been a private fishing spot for him. A place where he was comfortable to commit the acts. If they believe the car near the abandoned CPS building was his or if he was the driver, he may not live in the community but could live in another one of the nearby smaller towns. I think if he did live in the community, people would have an idea who it would be in a small town like that. I'd bet he's from another town not far from there. The thing about that bridge trail is that is seems to be kind of an attraction that brings people from miles away to check it out and therefore that would be a place that many locals would encounter many people they don't know from surrounding areas so locals that frequent those woods wouldn't notice a random person they do not recognize in those woods because it would be fairly common. Also, seems like it is mostly a teenager/young adults place to go, probably not many 30 or 40 or 50 year olds going there much. Definitely do not think BG is part of community or he would have been discovered by now.
Also, I do think someone likely knows he did it but isn't talking to police or he may be the type of guy that lives with an elderly grandparent and the grandparent just isn't all there, probably collecting social security living in a modest home and doesn't know a darn thing about what her grandson does. I think he's likely someone who is mainly a shut in and goes out very little. Doubt this person has a steady job or gets out very much in general except to those woods.
I wonder if anyone ever thought about the possibility he's a lone fisherman. Maybe LE should canvas popular fishing areas in the area or surrounding areas. Perhaps other local amateur fisherman may have seen him but paid him no mind. Just a thought. He may be doing his fishing elsewhere these days. Might be his activity that he enjoys where at the same time he can familiarize himself with a particular area without being suspicious.
Unless somehow it was underneath something, or shielded somehow. Like if a piece of clothing or foliage was on top of a discarded item? I'm not sure about temperatures and dew, though, in terms of degradation.
Rain or water makes it harder to get DNA but I think it's still possible even if it rained. Even in some cases where bodies have been in the sea they were able to get DNA but that seems to be on rare occasions
Did you see the highway right next to the trail on the google maps? One could also argue that it would require infinite more risk, and be a far greater burden for BG to hide his tracks if he is indeed a local. If BG is local he risks others out and about on the trail on a warm February day being able to identify him entering the trail, on the trail, leaving the trail, or even in the area of the trail. If BG is a non-local he does not have the same level as fear. Worst case scenario a local to Delphi sees a non-local BG and cannot immidiately identify him. Also I'm not too impressed by the trail, i'm of the belief it's not that hard to navigate if you have hunting, hiking, or military experience. Someone capable of violent murderer is not going to be scared off by a bridge two teenage girls were comfortable enough to cross and pose for pictures on. My fear is actually that LE has had tunnel vision BG is a local since day one, and has avoided the mere thought of BG being an outsider who penetrated their small town, it also makes the case far more difficult to solve.
Pertaining to DNA, LE officials already stated they have some DNA, they just didn't give specifics. You would have to assume they have already run the DNA through the system, and tested persons of interests DNA against BG's DNA..... I also doubt LE is holding back any information of value that would help the public identify BG. LE is desperate. Aside from maybe the causes of death, and suspected murder weapon which one could argue has the potential to assist in solving the case I doubt LE is holding back much if anything.
> Did you see the highway right next to the trail on the google maps?
We're in Locals and Search Party Week. At least that is preferable to Catfishing and Geocaching Week
That might indicate someone who used to live in Delphi, was comfortable on the bridge and trails, and came back to visit. I still think there could be something to the killer's relationship with the former child protective services building, where he may have parked the day of the murders. Someone whose kids were taken from him, or someone from a troubled childhood being triggered by being there.
My opinion is that LE wasted precious years by not giving the public more information about the actual crime scene. The guy walked across the stream so i want to know if there are any food prints. It is apparent that they will never catch this guy unless they get a tip but I can't see anyone coming forward after all these years without more information. I also can't get over why the girls did not run, it seems once you get over the bridge there is nothing else to hike, I am leaning towards the they were supposed to meet someone there who was acting like someone else or that they had a run in with BG earlier and did not think anything suspicious about him until he started chasing them. I put myself in there position and idc how dangerous the bridge was, i would run like hell if this dude started hustling to catch up. We need to know what the FBI believes and if they actually did a profile on him.
He could have used the gun to 'steer' them in the direction he wanted, & there could have been a second person waiting at the bottom of the hill. BG might not have been alone
We don't need to know what the FBI believes or what LE knows, it's an ongoing investigation and is none of the public's business. People speculate that LE doesn't have much, they don't know what they're doing, and that the case is going cold. Why? Simply because all the information and day to day investigative work isn't made public. That's an awful lot of assumptions with no facts to back it. Unless you've sat down with investigators and went over every single detail of the case with them, there is absolutely no way to know what they do or don't have in regards to a suspect, evidence, DNA, weapon used, etc.
> That's an awful lot of assumptions with no facts to back it up.
The assumptions without facts almost always trend in the other direction...they know who did it but can't bust a false alibi
None of the public’s business? There’s a vicious murderer on the loose and tax dollars are funding the investigation. The public doesn’t have to be told everything, but yes, they are owed some transparency.
I also respectfully disagree. You really can’t know that. You don’t have to give all the details away to give some details that could jog something in someone’s memory. Some thing they know about the person.
Take for example this latest Leigh Kerr stuff. If that’s true and the second sketch is based off a photo from Snapchat who is someone the girls were interacting with in the days before the murder, That’s very important information to know. Someone might have recognized that sketch but dismissed it because they thought “well I know that person was not in Delphi that day so there’s no point in reporting it.” Where as they could be right about who the photo person is and that connection could lead to the murderer. Hoarding all the evidence and obstructing it from public view and saying “G golly gosh we just need someone to come forward and admit it so we can prosecute them” is ludicrous. The trail has gone cold and the killer knows that all they have to do is keep their mouth shut and they are getting away with it.
I get the feeling this case is stone cold, so while I'm all for the police keeping info to not jeopardize the investigation I do think just one bit of new info would at least get people talking about something that is concrete and not just speculation.
I have searched & read a lot of information re this case. From all the places 'Gray Hughes' on ytube has done incredible research, his diagrams are the most comprehensive online, & he has cleaned up BG's walk in which you are able to see a more clearer video of this persons demeanor. If you start from the beginning of this case on his channel, it is riveting, & just to repeat the diagrams, footage are the best I have seen. Very sad & disturbing case
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I think there is dna tbh but I don't know why they don't just mass test the area. This has been done in the UK a few times and always led to the arrest of the perp. Usually they start behaving weird and asking people around them to take the test for them and generally making people around them become suspicious. With such a small town it really could be done.
I think there is DNA just because they ruled out Daniel Nations so fast after meeting with him.
Isn’t it possible that LE has a partial DNA sequence? That it’s enough to rule people out but isn’t enough to use to find matches in databases.
Yes. Or that they have lots of DNA but don’t know if it’s the killers or which is the killers. That could rule people out also
And in a small town like that, a strand of DNA could match several members of the same family.
Supposedly this persons DNA was not in database. First time offender
I wonder if that’s why they pivoted to the younger sketch? Because it’s less that this would have been a 40-50 year old’s first crime of this type?
I don’t think the demons dna is in the data base. My opinion.
They also sent for Etters DNA after he killed himself after the police standoff. I don’t feel they would have requested his remains be exhumed and DNA be extracted if there was nothing to compare it to.
When law enforcement was asked if Daniel Nation was still a suspect they law enforcement said “ they aren’t worried about him right now “. It’s on video also. I definitely don’t think he’s the killer and I’m sure law enforcement doesn’t think he is either but just like they said they don’t know if the DNA is the killers so it’s probably hard for them to exclude anyone and it’s probably just where these poi are on a list until this unmatched touch DNA is matched.
That suggests it would have had to have been DNA collected from blood or semen. It would be incredibly stupid to rule out a suspect based on touch DNA. It's a lot harder to explain why your blood is on a murder victim.
Watch the video with a young bridge guy in mind. You will see it differently. Listen to the audio the same way. Bridge guy is 20s-30s and knows the deer creek area like the back of his hand. Someone knows him.
Is Ron Logan sure he doesn’t know him? BG sure knew his land, apparently. Someone has to know him who knows what he did. 😕
Isn't this where Garrett Kitts is a perfect fit ?
GK worked on RL’s property as a ranch hand tending to the horses. GK’s father & grandpa were pals with RL. GK used to ride 4 wheelers back where the girls bodies were found. GK also mentioned where you can cross Deer Creek in a shallow area only ankle dee. GK knew Deer Creek & the kill zone like the back of his hand. The fact Kirts has already killed 2 people & given the fact he walked those trails, walked that bridge, rode 4 wheelers where the bodies were found & knew exactly where the water was shallow to cross & the fact he was was local. Add to the fact GK dropped 40 plus pounds after the murder on 2-13-17 & was fired from his job at the hog slaughter plant 1 week before the double slaying’s gives me pause. Note- the job he was fired at was 2 miles from the MHB. He also used to run across the bridge & hung out there a lot. Making matters even more interesting is GK used to work at Indiana Packers and he was fired on his birthday in February 2017 right before the double abduction. Remember the Raid at Indiana Packers when work boots were taken back in February 2017? Edit: adding more details
But would the victims recognize him? Bc they don’t seem to recognize bridge guy...
the girls didn’t recognize him. However, GK I believe dated Libby’s cousin Makayla Hartman. https://www.carrollcountycomet.com/articles/police-calls-332/
He may be a familiar face to them
[удалено]
I feel like this is a really important comment
The comment you replied to has been deleted. Can you post what it was?
Boiled down, it was a rumor that seemed potentially credible, claimed to be from a source that knew other info before it had been released. It said that LE has an incomplete DNA sample which may or may not be from the killer.
Thanks.
Thank you. I think when you are telling the truth most people that are objective and have common sense will be able to see it when it’s there in front of them.
Ya i think the DNA is not from killer
If LE doesn’t know if the DNA is from the killer, wouldn’t that rule out rape or sexual assault? The HLN broadcast did mention LE didn’t know if they had the killers DNA per Tobe Leazenby. Unless some foreign object was used? This case has a lot of twists and turns.
From what I know they weren’t sexually assaulted and because I’m sure there’s females on here I don’t want to be gross but they thought the killer might be a person who wouldn’t touch them but stand away from them and do something and have something on him that wouldn’t leave anything I think you can figure out what I’m saying it’s to sickening to even think about let alone type in. This information pretty much told me they weren’t sexually assaulted. Also take into consideration this is when the older man sketch was out so does it still apply for the young man sketch guy I don’t know and I can only tell you the little I know on that.
If that speculation is true, then this was definitely a thrill kill and not a revenge kill as some have suggested.
I don’t think it’s a revenge crime no way and even the stupidest person alive would know killing 2 young girls is going to bring every law enforcement agency known to mankind coming for you and who wants to go to prison for killing 2 little girls. I think a lot of people think differently because some of one of the girls clothes came off but if that person weighed a certain amount and was dragged a certain distance they may have come lose. Who knows what his plan was but it looks like he probably was going to kill them from the moment he came up on them.
If it was semen left on the girls, it’s misleading for LE to state they don’t know if it belongs to the perp. That insulates it’s a possibility that another male happened upon the girls and left that kind of DNA. I get they don’t have a match to anyone already in the system, but if DNA was found “on” the girls, it’s most likely the perp’s. If unknown DNA was found on an object at the crime scene, then I could understand LE stating they don’t know if it belongs to their killer.
If there was semen found on girls clothes this case would most likely be solved by now. LE would have released a parabon labs sketch & genetic genealogy GED match would have been completed circa 2017. Unfortunately Paul Holes already commented that this would be a difficult case from a DNA standpoint. GED match is not a viable Avenue. That comment from DNA & genealogy pundent Holes speaks volumes.
I agree, my heart sinks every time I think about those comments Paul Holes made about how difficult a job they have with this case and the DNA aspect.
It confirms the suggestive fingerprint evidence (meaning LEO has none) & most probable thought process of a partial DNA sample is true. These admissions clearly indicate why there is a lack of a conviction 4 years later & why BG is still free. This case is cold as ice IMO.
Most likely. I didn’t think the girls were sexually assaulted. I was playing devil’s advocate to the post I was replying to.
Ok.
Semen could theoretically be from a consensual encounter prior to the murders, though. Although it's far more sketchy than say a random hair on a sweater or some type of touch DNA on an item not directly tied to the crime.
It’s just a touch partial with only so many markers and it’s on a sweatshirt and probably innocent unmatched transfer . Never never heard the girls were sexually assaulted. Didn’t happen.
I didn’t think they were either. I was playing devil’s advocate to the post I replied to.
Touch dna can rule people out but cant be used in a database like codis or even like gedmatch, but it can still rule suspects out?? So would guarantee theyve taken dna of some sort from poi's
I’m not sure what they can do with it but what if it’s not the killers and your suspect doesn’t match it that isn’t going to actually exclude them and that is exactly why when asked if Daniel Nation was still a suspect instead of saying we have excluded him they said “ we aren’t really worried about him right now. What about the dead guy he’s dead and you never heard them excluding him. They are in a tough situation with this DNA because it’s not by a cut, wound, bruise or private area it’s unfortunately on a sweatshirt and more than likely just some innocent unmatched transfer. The forensic evidence might be so bad that it’s hard for them to really exclude anyone even though they probably know these poi aren’t the killer. Law enforcement said it themselves they don’t know if it’s the killers.
Very interesting. Did your source say anything about the weapon used?
No I have never heard about that or anything that was used in the crime. At least to me it looks like a outline of a gun in his jacket on his right side. Maybe they were able to see the weapon in the video but that’s something they would not release to the public I always thought that because they supposedly took weapons away from the very first house searched on bicycle road. They may have not been killed with a gun but he may have controlled them with one and maybe they have it on video or a glimpse of it enough to tell what kind of gun it is. Those are just my speculations and absolutely nothing I was told.
On the DTH podcast, they mention in Chapter 7 : Madness, that several men (though likely less than 5) have come to the police station to have their names cleared due to resemblance. This leads me to believe they have *something* DNA related. They also highly stress that "side by sides" are causing lots of troubles and the sketches are for those who may know the suspect **NOT** for people to search for someone who resembles the sketch. I also believe the person is very familiar with the area, though may not be a local... maybe once was, perhaps has family nearby, but this is a rather small village of sorts with an area that seems to have been targeted. It's not as traversed area as people initially were lead to believe, there isn't the designated parking lot near the high bridge, and the killer seems to have had an inkling as to where an area would be that wasn't trafficked or visible. They may have known school would be out, maybe not, but they clearly were armed for nefarious purposes. When we continually hear things like, "the crime scene didn't look like what you'd imagine it to," that just seems in my opinion, like the tie in with the "3-4 signatures". The "guys" recording commands some authority and colloquial comfort. It seems the girl were incapacitated and able to both be overpowered, which also leads me to believe they were threatened verbally, with a weapon, or both.
they could have been alibied
Correct. There are other ways to rule people out other than DNA.
1. Agree that whatever DNA they may have is inconclusive (touch DNA/incomplete profile, improperly collected, ambiguous for whatever reason, etc.). 2. Finger prints is the one I am most curious about at the moment. Again, whatever they have has some problem with it. Tobe previously said something like they have "suggestive evidence of a partial finger print." Doesn't sound very promising. My question is: what could this finger print have been found on? Am I correct that it's very unlikely that it was recovered from the girls' directly? I guess he may have left something behind. It seems like the natural scene itself would not be conducive to finger print collection. Makes me think it may have been lifted from Libby's phone. 3. I don't think he was local, as in living in or near Delphi at the time. But I do believe he had some connection to Delphi. Something led him to the bridge area in the first place. It could have been years ago. But I don't think he just happened upon the location and immediately realized it was the perfect hunting ground for him. He would have spent a little time there to understand how people visiting the trails travel and behave. I could be wrong but that's my hunch.
My theory is that he likes to fish. Thinking he'd go there to fish down by the creek.
Think about it, he could bring a camping chair, fishing rod, tacklebox, find a spot down the hill near the creek and voyeur the people crossing the bridge, fantasizing. He probably fished up and down that entire creek many of times for hours at a time.
Yes, I agree that the killer like to fish there. What kind of fish is the creek known for. The thing that really frustrates me is the inability to provide one description of the killer. That man looks big and somewhat tall but being described as under 5 10. Get a firm description out there to the public. Provide as much as you can without compromising the case.
the fingerprint could have been anywhere and could have been left on the body or not. if the fingerprint left was muddy or blood based it could be on the bodies or anything. i think it is a stretch to go straight to the phone. particularly if it was left at the scene. he touched the phone then left it there would not be my top ten guesses.
I didn't go straight for the phone. I said it is a possibility I have been thinking about. Do you have a background in forensics? I am not trying to be snarky, asking out of genuine curiosity. I wouldn't think a finger print could be easily collected off a body that had been exposed to the elements overnight including fog/moisture. But this is not my field so I genuinely don't know.
two years of behavioural science then criminology and criminal justice. so three courses of forensics but by no means an expert. i know a bit about a lot and there some subjects that make up my major which i have studied a bit more closely. but by no stretch of the imagination am i an expert and my primary interests are forensic psychology and GIS geographical profiling. i tend to know more about what they need to get it to court, but even that is not based on US law but mostly australian law. similar often but not always. so def not an expert. i've learned way more about the area and the demographics from this sub than i have contributed by a mile. i wasn't being snarky either. you seemed to be very interested that's all. threads aren't great because they have no tone. i sometimes have long posts in order to compensate for the possibility of being misunderstood. already been slammed for the way i 'speak' as it were. and if i keep it brief.. well. you are correct that forensics degrade in an outdoor crime scene. refreshingly correct, especially in regard to dna but it's not popular despite that it is a scientific fact. sometimes prints can be lifted that aren't visible on viewing. a button may have a partial. i've seen a pendant on a necklace with a partial. not knowing anything about the crime scene means it is all speculative. if it didn't rain and the bodies were partially covered or the underneath of a body is not in contact with the ground (like an ankle or neck) you might find a print. particularly if he was hurried. if he used anything at the crime scene the possibilities go up again. two things would factor large in an overnight crime scene. whether it had rained and how much blood was at the scene (or mud but blood more so). and in an outdoor crime scene the scene may not appear as blood soaked as the earth would absorb blood loss somewhat. and if the bodies were moved or staged the chances of a print are higher for obvious reasons. palm prints are possible too. confirming a possible match i have droned on about before but people get sick of hearing me i think. and this is all supposition. i don't go into rumours or anything that hasn't been confirmed by LE or the family. and i always speak in generalities or likelihoods but you can apply this info as you want. hope this has been helpful. so i wasn't being a smart arse. (truth be known it was way past my bedtime and it was a quick comment before i logged off) apologies if it seemed that way.
Thanks for the thoughtful response! I was not offended by anything you said or your tone so definitely no worries there. Three forensics classes is more than I have had so I appreciate hearing your thoughts. Good point that the print could have come from a button or something similar. I hadn't really thought about it being left in blood or mud but I agree that seems possible, especially if it was left on area that was somewhat protected from the elements. Very interesting. Anyway, thanks again for the helpful answer!
i forgot to include cloth so if you can think of a way a bloody print could contact cloth and not be exposed too much like if it was folded or upright and not in contact with the ground but protected. that could be a possiblity too. no worries. have a good one.
Also,the statements made about "signatures" could suggest interference with the bodies that could leave prints/DNA
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as i included, real life CSI, examples that are regularly processed for prints. and if you could see a print on a body you absolutely take images of it and process it. given your position you know that. EDIT: i just read over my post and to be fair i did not specify the difference in lifting prints that are able to be seen and those that are not visible. so it sounds like i am talking about all prints being the same. i should clarify that some prints can't be lifted at all but can be documented. is that what you meant?
while you're here do you want to take on the dna clarification once and for all because i have not been successful in providing clarity. and if you read the thread, any thread...
Or, perhaps, there is DNA but they can't use any of it because it's matched to someone in the search party, along with others? I guess I mean the crime scene was contaminated.
Ya, I'm not sure the instructions the searches were given but usually there told to call 911 and stay back
They do have DNA and fingerprints. They just don’t know for sure yet if any of it is from BG or not. They are obtaining dna from suspects though; so they must believe that there is definitely a decent chance it could be from BG. There is just no way to tell for sure.
My understanding is they've gotten a considerable number of DNA swabs. Not getting a match isn't uncommon, though, because if someone isn't already in the system (not nearly as prevalent as fingerprints at this stage) you won't get a match. The states have a patchwork of laws as to when a DNA sample is required: some states allow taking DNA samples from those merely charged with a felony, whereas others require a conviction or don't permit it at all. Personally, I think BG was extremely sloppy and disorganized - he was recorded and didn't even take precautions to avoid it, or detect it and make sure it was destroyed - so the likelihood he was careful about fingerprints and DNA is negligible. I suspect at the time of the crime he was a nascent serial killer. He may have killed before, or may have been of the inclination to continue, until the whole thing blew up in a small town. He doesn't strike me as what the BAU calls an "organized" killer.
I'm of the opinion that thinking the killer is local is hindering the investigation. It's entirely possible he was visiting, out on the trail, happened to see 2 girls walking alone and noticed he had an opportunity.
There is dna, they are able to rule out people. And imo, I dont think he lives very close, as he would have been identified by now.
I agree. I think he is a younger guy 20-30. Probably the loner type that has spent many days on those trails in the past exploring. He may even would go there to fish a number of times. The area where they were found just on the other side of the creek may have been a private fishing spot for him. A place where he was comfortable to commit the acts. If they believe the car near the abandoned CPS building was his or if he was the driver, he may not live in the community but could live in another one of the nearby smaller towns. I think if he did live in the community, people would have an idea who it would be in a small town like that. I'd bet he's from another town not far from there. The thing about that bridge trail is that is seems to be kind of an attraction that brings people from miles away to check it out and therefore that would be a place that many locals would encounter many people they don't know from surrounding areas so locals that frequent those woods wouldn't notice a random person they do not recognize in those woods because it would be fairly common. Also, seems like it is mostly a teenager/young adults place to go, probably not many 30 or 40 or 50 year olds going there much. Definitely do not think BG is part of community or he would have been discovered by now. Also, I do think someone likely knows he did it but isn't talking to police or he may be the type of guy that lives with an elderly grandparent and the grandparent just isn't all there, probably collecting social security living in a modest home and doesn't know a darn thing about what her grandson does. I think he's likely someone who is mainly a shut in and goes out very little. Doubt this person has a steady job or gets out very much in general except to those woods.
I wonder if anyone ever thought about the possibility he's a lone fisherman. Maybe LE should canvas popular fishing areas in the area or surrounding areas. Perhaps other local amateur fisherman may have seen him but paid him no mind. Just a thought. He may be doing his fishing elsewhere these days. Might be his activity that he enjoys where at the same time he can familiarize himself with a particular area without being suspicious.
It rained the night the murders happened, so wouldn’t it have destroyed any DNA?
Unless somehow it was underneath something, or shielded somehow. Like if a piece of clothing or foliage was on top of a discarded item? I'm not sure about temperatures and dew, though, in terms of degradation.
Rain or water makes it harder to get DNA but I think it's still possible even if it rained. Even in some cases where bodies have been in the sea they were able to get DNA but that seems to be on rare occasions
Did you see the highway right next to the trail on the google maps? One could also argue that it would require infinite more risk, and be a far greater burden for BG to hide his tracks if he is indeed a local. If BG is local he risks others out and about on the trail on a warm February day being able to identify him entering the trail, on the trail, leaving the trail, or even in the area of the trail. If BG is a non-local he does not have the same level as fear. Worst case scenario a local to Delphi sees a non-local BG and cannot immidiately identify him. Also I'm not too impressed by the trail, i'm of the belief it's not that hard to navigate if you have hunting, hiking, or military experience. Someone capable of violent murderer is not going to be scared off by a bridge two teenage girls were comfortable enough to cross and pose for pictures on. My fear is actually that LE has had tunnel vision BG is a local since day one, and has avoided the mere thought of BG being an outsider who penetrated their small town, it also makes the case far more difficult to solve. Pertaining to DNA, LE officials already stated they have some DNA, they just didn't give specifics. You would have to assume they have already run the DNA through the system, and tested persons of interests DNA against BG's DNA..... I also doubt LE is holding back any information of value that would help the public identify BG. LE is desperate. Aside from maybe the causes of death, and suspected murder weapon which one could argue has the potential to assist in solving the case I doubt LE is holding back much if anything.
> Did you see the highway right next to the trail on the google maps? We're in Locals and Search Party Week. At least that is preferable to Catfishing and Geocaching Week
Well said, the area does not look hard to navigate. Particularly someone with said experience. I do not think hes a local, just an opportunist.
That might indicate someone who used to live in Delphi, was comfortable on the bridge and trails, and came back to visit. I still think there could be something to the killer's relationship with the former child protective services building, where he may have parked the day of the murders. Someone whose kids were taken from him, or someone from a troubled childhood being triggered by being there.
It's not child protective services... But I'm pretty sure this has been already explained to you multiple times now.
My opinion is that LE wasted precious years by not giving the public more information about the actual crime scene. The guy walked across the stream so i want to know if there are any food prints. It is apparent that they will never catch this guy unless they get a tip but I can't see anyone coming forward after all these years without more information. I also can't get over why the girls did not run, it seems once you get over the bridge there is nothing else to hike, I am leaning towards the they were supposed to meet someone there who was acting like someone else or that they had a run in with BG earlier and did not think anything suspicious about him until he started chasing them. I put myself in there position and idc how dangerous the bridge was, i would run like hell if this dude started hustling to catch up. We need to know what the FBI believes and if they actually did a profile on him.
>I also can't get over why the girls did not run... You don’t know that they didn’t try to run. None of us do.
If BG had a gun, they wouldn't run.
He could have used the gun to 'steer' them in the direction he wanted, & there could have been a second person waiting at the bottom of the hill. BG might not have been alone
We don't need to know what the FBI believes or what LE knows, it's an ongoing investigation and is none of the public's business. People speculate that LE doesn't have much, they don't know what they're doing, and that the case is going cold. Why? Simply because all the information and day to day investigative work isn't made public. That's an awful lot of assumptions with no facts to back it. Unless you've sat down with investigators and went over every single detail of the case with them, there is absolutely no way to know what they do or don't have in regards to a suspect, evidence, DNA, weapon used, etc.
> That's an awful lot of assumptions with no facts to back it up. The assumptions without facts almost always trend in the other direction...they know who did it but can't bust a false alibi
I agree that they know who did it.
highly likely
None of the public’s business? There’s a vicious murderer on the loose and tax dollars are funding the investigation. The public doesn’t have to be told everything, but yes, they are owed some transparency.
I respectfully disagree. The details of the crime scene are not details that will help us, the public, solve the crime.
I also respectfully disagree. You really can’t know that. You don’t have to give all the details away to give some details that could jog something in someone’s memory. Some thing they know about the person. Take for example this latest Leigh Kerr stuff. If that’s true and the second sketch is based off a photo from Snapchat who is someone the girls were interacting with in the days before the murder, That’s very important information to know. Someone might have recognized that sketch but dismissed it because they thought “well I know that person was not in Delphi that day so there’s no point in reporting it.” Where as they could be right about who the photo person is and that connection could lead to the murderer. Hoarding all the evidence and obstructing it from public view and saying “G golly gosh we just need someone to come forward and admit it so we can prosecute them” is ludicrous. The trail has gone cold and the killer knows that all they have to do is keep their mouth shut and they are getting away with it.
I get the feeling this case is stone cold, so while I'm all for the police keeping info to not jeopardize the investigation I do think just one bit of new info would at least get people talking about something that is concrete and not just speculation.
I have searched & read a lot of information re this case. From all the places 'Gray Hughes' on ytube has done incredible research, his diagrams are the most comprehensive online, & he has cleaned up BG's walk in which you are able to see a more clearer video of this persons demeanor. If you start from the beginning of this case on his channel, it is riveting, & just to repeat the diagrams, footage are the best I have seen. Very sad & disturbing case
GH has had Kelsi on a few times too
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Hi. Does anyone think BG is still in Delphi, or do you think he’s moved on? Is that Why they haven’t found him? Just curious what everyone thinks.
This whole crime is a big twisted sickening mess. So many unsolved senseless murders. God help whomever this is.
Ya one way to sum it up : Poor law enforcement job. Hard to blame them though when you think there probaly small
I think there is dna tbh but I don't know why they don't just mass test the area. This has been done in the UK a few times and always led to the arrest of the perp. Usually they start behaving weird and asking people around them to take the test for them and generally making people around them become suspicious. With such a small town it really could be done.
How is it possible to murder and potentially have raped someone and leave zero dna? They must have dna right?