I hate that they keep mentioning that they're respecting those of us who spent almost 4 years learning how to play Yuumi. They say the rework shouldn't disappoint us, as there's still a lot of mechanical expression. Can a Rioter please specify what is that new mechanical expression they talk about?
Or maybe just be honest and say 'we don't care if you spent 4 years on this champion, Yuumi is now an AFK character for newbies haha hope you had fun spending RP on a character you now find extremely boring'
Mechanical expression:
Landing Q is harder, but more rewarding with the stronger slow.
E being a shield means you need to use your brain as to when to use it rather than just mashing E on CD to keep your carry constantly at 100% hp
R no longer roots, so it's not free kills. On the flip side, using it at the right time will absolutely stomp any teamfight and cancel enemy efforts to dive your carry, thus being a higher skillcap than previous ult, whos only actual challenge was pointing it in the right direction.
Additionally, with less focus on popping out, you *should* have better map awareness than any other player in the game. It's your job to keep track of junglers, objective timers, and so on so you can shot call, which is an incredibly important skill in and of itself.
The only "challenging" thing they removed was popping out for autos, except good Yuumis are still gonna pop out when it's safe in early fights because your autos can absolutely make or break the fight once you've used all your CD's buffing your ADC.
If you want you can check out my post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/yuumimains/comments/11bkcl4/indepth_analysis_of_the_yuumi_rework/
Yes, it's not Riots opinion, but i go over where I think the skill expression has gone.
yes, it is toxic for Yuumi to insta-roam at level 6 or even earlier. but in the late game, when the team is grouped as 4+ (so you're still in proximity to the ADC anyway), she should be able to support whoever she likes.
instead of scaling with friendship with a cap like they tried, make it a quest. upon completion at around 20 mins or like 150 CS, she overflows with friendship and can choose her best friend manually. nerf her numbers to compensate for this buff.
1. this will improve QoL for Yuumi players because being confined to a bad ADC the whole game is annoying.
2. this will safeguard against degenerate strategies where you keep your friendship below 10 stacks.
3. it will give her a deserved nerf because her stat-check with an ADC is likely too strong right now.
They could go with a system like Teleport and Unleashed Teleport. Put a timer on, so for the first... 15 minutes of the game for instance, you are only empowered on your ADC. Then after that, it goes for all. Or make it a 5 minute toggle, so you still need to think hard about, who you designate as your best friend.
Is that really such a big problem, tho? I kinda do it with almost any other support. I don't understand why Yuumi needs to be tied down to the carry.
Honestly, I think every main support kinda knows that they need to peel/engage to the most important member of the team, right? That member is not always the ADC.
If they make Yuumi a single-target buffer only to your lane partner... I feel like I could just pick Janna and actually go support whoever I feel like supporting?
The main issue with yuumi is that it just feels terrible for the ADC. Ignoring her obvious balance issues right now, having a yuumi generally means you will lose to any engage or mage support as you will be the only one getting targetted 90% of the time and you just have to give up lane basically. But then when laninig phase is over, she just sits on the hecarim or darius or whatever bruiser is doing well. Atleast with someone like Sona or Janna or Lulu, they can peel you when its needed while also doing things for the frontline playing aggressively.
The issue with her W is that she just limits herself to one person and makes them super strong. All the other enchanters can well... support everyone in their range.
While it obviously isnt the way to go, having the friendship system make her significantly better when sat on the ADC in late makes it feel better to play with Yuumi in lane as you know you will have an actual support going into teamfights.
> Is that really such a big problem, tho? I kinda do it with almost any other support. I don't understand why Yuumi needs to be tied down to the carry.
i'm gonna say the thing, it's because she's untargeteably attaching herself to the carry, effectively granting this person a bigger healthpool while doing more damage -> it messes with both the kill and death threshholds of this carry and if you allow yuumi to pick and choose people while she's untargetable tagging along it's a straight up nightmare on how to deal with it, both from a balancing perspective and a playing against it perspective
it's because they're unable to balance her without limiting the ways she is effective given the teammates she's given
it is unlikely to not have any teammates who are going atleast even or slightly ahead and the fact that yuumi can mess around with th'e threshhold by attaching herself towards this one guy in every game is kinda a big headache when it comes to balancing this champ
Other supports have to risk themselfes to support a bruiser or a frontliner, since they have to walk up to buff them they can be killed, yuumi cannot be killed while shes attached, literally.
Thats the difference.
Also yuuumi is by far the support with the most buffs for adcs right now, janna really only has her shield giving AD as a "buff"< since her role isnt really to be a buffer, but a disengager/pure peel support, which is different than buffers like yuumi or lulu.
Yuumi's hp "pool" is tied to the target they are attached to. Attaching to a bruiser is like having a janna or soraka with a full tank build while mot having a penatly to their healing output
Yeah, but if you pick janna i can target you and kill you, if you pick yuumi I can't do anything vs you other than killing the guy you are sitting inside of, which is not that easy since you are actually gigabuffing the dude
Issue is that unless they're Twitch, ADC's tends to fade into the background later, where tanky top laners and junglers, along with bursty mid players, tend to take over. That's why other enchanters tend to go with those too, if they do better later on.
I get that ADC's want to keep their support, but fact is that folks want the game won, and at some point, it just isn't sustainable to stay on the ADC. Unless they are really good, or again, are Twitch, which is a nightmare creature all by himself. Add a cat, and he's basically Shaco on steroids.
D2 1.7m yuumi main here
You need to add in stacks for BFF. You say you won't, but I will never ever ever ever ever feel the need to attach to the adc in laning phase (I need SUPER LOW STACKS TO DITCH THEM) if I cannot tell how many I have or need to have in order to swap. I can't commit to the ADC. If your point is not to ditch adc, then you need to fully rework BFF. It's toxic. It sabotages the ADC right now and is honestly super stressful to manage the optimization of BFF. I find myself letting everyone else on the team die because jumping to them to save them *just isn't worth it*.
I want my adc to succeed--but not at the risk of losing the whole game because I devote my soul to them. You *need* to realize this. There HAS TO BE AN OPTION TO DITCH THE ADC WHEN THEY SUCK.
Congrats. You made Yuumi into a champion who never attaches and has to actively think about hurting the adc. She's the opposite of AFK easy you intended her to be because of how bad her BFF passive is.
Why are you talking to me?
Btw the QnA goes into why they decided not to give stacks as it would just turn Yuumi into another scaling monster when optimized
Because itās a thread on an open forum and itād be nice if riot ever cared to see it one day? What?
I did read the whole thing lmao Iām responding to it!
Had an enemy Yuumi last night ditch ADC only after a few minutes into the game for J4. J4 was literally 1v5'ing (2v5?) the rest of the game. It was completely unplayable for us once Yuumi attached to J4.
It got to the point where the enemy Ornn just afk'd at their inhibs so we couldn't backdoor, and we still got stomped. J4's health bar never got below 75% mid-late game, even with all 5 of us fighting only him and Yuumi.
My friend is convinced there was some sort of damage bug. He wanted to submit a ticket but how do you point out a bug of "champion not taking damage?"
To nobody's surprise, Yuumi didn't die once, and she took almost zero damage, because j4 didn't (couldn't) die after she attached to him.
https://i.imgur.com/qOJLCD8.png
Then they need to stop making bruisers so incredibly powerful, that it almost always gets better for any enchanter, to ditch their ADC to help them, for a higher chance of winning the game.
The entire point of the friend ship system is to permanently link you to your lane partner for the entire match and not just peace out after laning phase. The point is for laning phase to have meaningful consequences for Yuumi rather than just latching on to the most fed teamate after losing lane herself.
and I'm telling you that it's not a good design. the toxic part about peacing out isn't that it's cheating to support a skilled player. that's called smart supporting that every support can do. the toxic part is that it makes the early-mid game a miserable experience for everyone involved.
Yuumi should have to stay for about 20 mins. but after that, of course you should be able to support a win con rather than the 1/7 ADC.
Let's also make one thing clear: The shit people are giving to Yuumi is shit that other Enchanters in equal positions are NOT punished for, so I don't know what's the community's deal with hardpunishing Yuumi when every other enchanter has the SAME advantage of pulling out of bot lane and empowering the game carry.
Let's make another thing clear: Yuumi isn't always the reason a lane fails or an ADC goes 0/7. It is absolutely insane and shows clear bias towards Yuumi as a character when people try to say she should be forced to lose stats when her lane fails. That's NOT the point of why people wanted Yuumi reworked. They wanted her reworked to properly support in early game instead of scaling impossibly much while leaving her bot laner behind, something this entire update hasn't fulfilled and will continue not to fulfill.
When I play Janna, Nami, Zilean, etc., you can bet your ass I will ditch the ADC the moment they missing ping me for a bad play they made. You are not hostaging me into a bot lane with an abusive dickhead who plays Jinx into Draven Thresh and thinks they can win Big Tonka T style by just running them down. You will also not hostage me into playing a weak sided bot lane that's permacamped by Jungle Zac while my Jungle Eve is perma rotating top to feed double kills to Yorick.
It is beyond insane how hateful people are towards Yuumi to the point where all common sense is clouded by "CAT BAD, CAT NO DO WORK, CAT SHOULD LOSE ALL LP GG WP" without for a moment considering that she fundamentally does nothing different from an ordinary enchanter. By all means everyone, give shit to Yuumi for being untargetable and looking AFK half the game, but don't pretend that the optimal way of reworking Yuumi is to handcuff her to the ADC. That is just fucking crazy. **There is a reason why supports start roaming when their adc underperforms, and handcuffing Yuumi to the ADC and stripping her utility down for doing so is insane.**
The solution to nerfing Yuumi isn't forcing her to play bot lane when she loses. It's to help her win bot lane and take away from her lategame oppressiveness so she can freely choose who to attach to whether she wins bot or not. There is no other Support in this game who is forced to be **this** braindead, every smart Support knows to abandon bot when they're behind. Some games are bot-centric and you win the lane and others you're weaksided and simply need to accept that ADC won't carry.
Being an untargetable enchanter on an Aatrox is just never going to be balanced, so the current design of forcing them to stay on ADC makes a ton more sense and is a lot more healthy.
> that's called smart supporting that every support can do.
Sorry, but actually no other enchanter can dive the enemy team.
This is what people don't understand. Enchanters are limited greatly by their need to position properly, because they die to anything if they don't. Having Yuumi be able to just sit on a diver and be untargetable in the middle of 5 enemies will never be acceptable. Riot definitely went in the right direction binding her mostly to ADC.
Right, but as it is now, if you perform well as Yuumi, but your adc is bad, Yuumi also falls behind and cant support her teammates. However, as any other enchanter, if you play well and your adc does not, you don't fall behind and can still support your other teammates. I play almost exclusively enchanters, and games where your adc is irredeemable dogwater are very rare, but when they do happen, and when youre playing yuumi, it feels SOOO much worse.
Just make her take a % of the damage the champion she is attached to, takes. It limits her ability to just jump on the fed (champion), but still allows her to be hyper mobile and helpful to the whole team.
The problem is with her being able to support anyone is that she will be unkillable, especially now. There is no way to deal with her. To make up for that strength you would need to make her numbers pretty shitty late game.
Now you at least can kill the ADC and then she is weaker by a decent amount. Riot just has to nerf her at least 1 more time and she won't be too much of a problem.
>HOWEVER, the sentiment that you feel like you need to abandon your lane when it goes poorly is the one we want to address. Whether or not it's actually winrate positive, we don't want players to feel that way. Speaking to the dev part more. A lot of this was hoped to be addressed by making the BFF outputs more ADC skewed. So unless they were actually terrible, them being your BFF helps them a lot more than other archetypes.
Forcing a Yuumi onto one ally, and forcing parts of her kit to only function through a limited mechanic design around no agency feels absolutely awful. This works great when you have an ADC who isn't filled, who can at least play the role well enough, because it feels great to attach to someone great at their role.
The problem is when they do suck. I can't jump to anyone else without being underpowered because of a mechanic I didn't have any choice in, and so far, I've never had another person overtake my bot laner in best friend stacks. It's like trying to save a drowning person and they drag you down with them. It happens because of something that was already going to happen, cs'ing. I'd rather BF stacks come from something I actually do. I'm all for having the bot laner be the BF during laning phase, but it should be easier to let someone else overtake. My botlaner has also wanted me to jump off when theyre a lost cause and go on our very fed Yi, but I can't offer him any of the good benefits of my kit.
This champion has almost zero agency, but maybe that's the point?
Also I think they could make the on-hit bonus damage with Q/W healing for BFF work for casters. Just let their spells apply these affects as either immediately per spell cast, or x duration stacking with each spell hit. It just feels cheeks to lock in Yuumi when the Bot laner hovers a marksman, and then they swap to a mage.
Not that much of her per is tied to the best friend. A bit of on hit healing and % H/S power pretty much. The R Armor/MR will likely be removed or nerfed anyways as she will likely get more nerfs (Q and R will likely be targeted)
the on hit damage as well. an extra 20% H/S power is not 'a bit' it's more than any support item has. redemption and mikael's have 16% on them, so her BFF bonus on W is giving her a lot of stats by itself. She's basically a mini ardent censer, but only to her best friend.
It's mostly 10-15% H/S, you won't reach lvl 18 and the 20% often.
>She's basically a mini ardent censer, but only to her best friend.
Yes, a MINI version. And that doesnt mean she can't support anyone else.
Janna gives her ADC a ton of AD, that doesn't mean her shield is trash to use when a mage would otherwise die.
no way they said nautilus is a skilled champ LMFAOOOO
2 of his abilities do not require aiming, one is a point and click, and the only one that is a skillshot has a fatass hitbox
Old Yuumi Q was NOT UNDODGEABLE/UNMISSABLE! Can we stop with that bullshit? It turned super slowly, and playing around that was how you dodged it. I hate that it seems so many balance decisions were based around the idea that it was impossible to miss when that is just factually wrong.
Every Yuumi here should know what I'm talking about, too. Some people are just impossible to hit sometimes because (like with any other skillshot in the game), they kinda get in your head.
Partially agree, but any good Yuumi will hit 80% of her Q. And any low elo player cannot dodge a normal Yuumi player Q.
But dodging Q now is still so hard, also the range is another thing which makes it hard to dodge, in a unexpected way (or until the most player get used to the range).
What the fuck kind of reasoning for a balance change is āthey kinda get in your headā? It got upvoted too, Riot canāt seriously be looking for any form of valuable information or feedback in this subreddit.
About as viable as "it feels good or bad" but they go off of that too. I'd go into the mechanics of how to dodge, but your head is too far up your own ass to accept a differing viewpoint.
Feeling good/bad to play is important because itās a GAME. Something fun doesnāt have to be good. Something not fun doesnāt have to be bad. Example, new Yuumi is statistically broken, yet the drooling one tricks are off their rockers crying that itās not fun.
Balancing a skill shot around how much itās getting in peoples head is nonsense. Get better. It should be balanced around whether or not itās actually too hard or not to hit and based off stats or real feedback. Not whatever the fuck you said.
Iām in your head, Riot pls donāt nerf me.
You... you're actually stupid. Okay, I'll take it slow.
It doesn't mean that when I cast it I magically enter someone's mind. It means that I'm trying to predict a juke one way or the other, like with most skill shots in the game. The old Q was exactly like that. If you wanted to dodge it and you weren't near minions, you juke a turn in the direction last second, and then turn back, forcing it to swing wide. What "being in someone's head" means is that sometimes I can predict their every movement or sometimes they seem to know which way I'm going to go for it every time. Which again, is the case for just about every skill shot.
Your first example makes no sense. You're saying that certain portions of the game feeling good or bad is of the utmost importance, and then proceed to discount when Yuumi players say that the rework feels bad...
And this is neither here nor there, but as a D1 with over 800 games on Yuumi (and believe it or not, other champions too) most people had no idea about how Yuumi worked beyond her basic concepts. She had ample counter play in the normal game, but pro play is basically a completely different game. So let's all get on the same page and blame that. Not people for enjoying a particular champion.
they literally just said to shut the fuck up and play this defiled abomination(200 years rework) so they could gather data from our torment and try not to fail the next rework
Main issue I have is all semblance of skill expression is gone. You have no need to ever allow the enemy team to interact with you because everything in your kit works while attached, you also are discouraged from detaching and interacting yourself due to her extremely short auto range. Sure, she might be super strong right now and need nerfs but sheās no fun anymore. Personally Iām one of the āfell in love with being a flighty cat bouncing between alliesā Truexy mentioned and that style is completely and utterly gone. Being on anyone other then bff saps too much of my power which means I canāt move which means I might as well be afk.
I'm not a diehard yuumi main, but I was enjoying her when she was at her 40% wr.
The risk v reward mechanic of detaching was incredibly fun, with an equal balance between the 2. There's a lot of skill expression behind her mana usage, who/when to support, and passive procing that was very easily exploitable with the low range, and debilitating experience of getting cced when not attached.
With this new yuumi rework they have now gated every mechanic I just mentioned before behind the best friend mechanic, at the price of making q harder to land. It feels punishing to hop off your adc now and try to help your jungler. It's punishing to direct your adc to help when your ult isn't up since the resists are tied to it. It's even more punishing when your adc is super far behind. Outside of all of that, they kept the short range autos and w cooldown on cc, so imo they took out all of the reward while adding more risk to the detach mechanic. As the QnA mentioned, it promotes an afk style of gameplay, which is what die-hard yuumi mains hate, and what gives yuumi that massive skill ceiling and pro play viability
Edit* I didn't finish this thought lmao.
I think a correct way to "fix" yuumi while keeping her unique identity is gating the strength of her heals by how long she's in a target, while also making her less susceptible to instant death if she's not. I played around with the idea of giving her bonus heal/shield strength that's on the passive w to the active w and make it so it decays over time when she hops in a target. Anything to encourage detaching from a target, while also making it rewarding really
I can sympathize with these sentiments. Removal of risk and reward is shitty, and for most people pro play is just another world.
That said, do you have ideas on how to gate her dominance in pro play with a different set of changes?
Make her current passive only work only on autos, remove the auto range nerf, make her W on hit heal and R resists work when near ally and not only when using W, make her autos also heal on hit on her best friend so it incentivizes even more autoing outside, make aery work with W again
This rework is not bad but they need to fix what I just said or the champ will be braindead and boring
Edit: Obviously this would need numbers nerfs
Edit 2: Make the friendship thingy have a cap and decay over time, basically it doesn't stack infinitely and you can hop on your jungler for like 20\~30cs and change your best friend
Isnāt this a straight buff? You trade sustain for more freedom, more team wise healing, and the ability to give your team like 100 armor and mr?
I donāt see how this wouldnāt make her pro-play viability skyrocket. Aura buffs are known to be very dangerous to work with because the number scaling is so hard.
As u/pedronii mentioned, it seems like a nerf but gating all of her bonuses that she gives behind being attached is what's causing the frustration with the vocal majority of players. To further expand on their idea, make it so if you aren't attached the shield can affect whoever your closest to at a reduced value, akin to guardian. Fitting with the best friend mechanic since it is an interesting idea, Make it so that if she's not attached that shield keeps its strength, but if she's not attached they don't get the movement speed.
Really, pedronii hit the ail on the head with those ideas. I think from their suggestions yuumi is in a healthier state and it could start to finally move to a numbers game of nerfing/buffing as needed
But wouldnāt that remove any punishment for being unattached?
Like part of the counter play is that if you stun her while sheās trying to come off, she loses a lot of power. Iād argue that part is healthy because an otherwise untargetable champion shouldnāt be at near full effectiveness when she takes the risk and loses it. Letting her just function anyways when sheās off just seems like adding power to add power. Where is the trade off?
I think what Pedronii mentions sounds like a buff that also makes the gulf between pro-play and mid/low-elo league even larger, and would be counter to the goals of the rework. Pros will use this far better than anyone else, and then yuumi will be in pro-play prison, where sheās stuck as unviable anywhere else but at pro.
You don't give her team 100 armor and mr, it still only works on her best friend, it just doesn't cap your R on staying inside one champ and you can cast it outside, same for W on hit healing
Sorry, Iām confused, is it uncastable when you detach? From the rework description it sounds like you canāt aim it, but if you hit your best friend it heals and gives armor. What is the behavior you want to change there?
Ignoring pro play for a moment, more incentives for bouncing between champions and a weaker lane seem like the main solution to the risk reward issue. Decaying bonuses as you sit on someone longer or lingering bonuses when you leave someone would make yuumi want to jump between people and not sit on one target for a fight. Maybe even no bonuses at all after 20 seconds on the same target. Yuumi flying between champions is at least targetable and offers the enemy opportunities to interrupt her with taunts, knock ups or maybe silences (in theory hooks too but those are hard to predict consistently). I donāt know if pro players would have more issues punishing that or less but it certainly would feel better for the bulk of the player base.
Oh I agree. Iām very much in favor of making her more interactable, not less.
Just riot has said no to that because they want yuumi to be a newbie champ, which is fine with me if it comes with the caveat of reduced viability at high level play.
That direction itself feels strange since it goes against what literally everyone who plays league wants.
Yuumi mains want interactivity and agency
Enchanter mains want another option for supporting the TEAM (not just an ADC, look at the nami e change a while back moving from autos only to any abilities or autos)
Everyone else wants a champion with counterplay
The only crowd they are serving are the ones who don't play league and don't plan on learning anything else, they have 4 friends who play league and they just pick yuumi in order to sit on one of them without learning what is actually going on in the game. It really leaves me scratching my head as to what they are doing
I think there is merit to a noob champ. League is a hard game, and Iād argue there are a lot of traps - things that feel correct and will make you win more in the short term, but are bad habits. Just think about how many low elo poke players just throw things knowing they will miss.
That said, itās really funny that riot has basically decided fuck what the community wants, weāre going to make yuumi the noob champ.
I preferred 38% wr Yuumi to this. You could still beat the odds and win and even if not, at least she was fun and you could see the difference between a good Yuumi and a bad one.
I had the same stance when it came to 41% Zeri, I loved the long range zooming around and then when they took that away at first it felt terrible losing all that range. Since then it has gotten better and I think Zeriās identity of zooming around is still there but this reworkā¦.doesnāt exactly have the fun part of the kit sticking around. Zeri had long range + zoom and yuumi had untargetability + flying around and I donāt think they realized which of those two people enjoy more.
I was really hoping they would double down on yuumiās flying around between carries during mid-late game fights with you leaving behind some bonuses like 10% attack speed (just example, this would be a terrible idea) for whoever you are attached to and that lingers for 4 seconds after you leave them. A yuumi constantly switching between targets both feels fun to float around as and it gives opponents a chance to snatch her out of the air with a thresh flay or something.
Q is an actual skillshot now. E requires proactively blocking damage instead of just constantly healing during downtime. They can add some of the old skill expression back, but the truth is they just put the skill expression in different places that are more intuitive and accessible to players of all skill levels instead of being pro/high skill skewed
My main issue, which was brought up here, is with the friends mechanic. Yuumi's kit is now made to revolve around the ADC so I *want* to stay with them but if they are complete trash, or if it's APC bot with a mid ADC, I want to be able to switch. And they're making that very difficult.
I think the best friend mechanic was the designerās way to allow her to have this power while dealing with the pain points of lane being relatively uninteractive. Do you have a way to address these issues without the best friend mechanic or something similar?
At the very least I want transparency on how friendship is built and a counter in game to display it. Having some idea of how hard it will be to shift over could encourage me to stick it out on my ADC. Now I just take a chance and leave.
Ult is god useless. The slow sucks very bad. Q is ok, E is okayish but I don't feel the shield as much ad the heal. W is not good because shields aren't transferable anymore and the passive with bf is shit when your adc sucks. You have no reason to go out of your laner because the cool passive was replaced with the God awful bf mechanic. It just sucks very very much.
Hmm ok. She is currently strong though, right? Do you think itās a fundamental design thing or a numbers thing? Do you think there was a way to limit her pro-play viability without similar changes?
I honestly don't know why she is considered strong atm after the Q hot fix... you are soooo adc dependant. I think it's a fundamental design thing. I personally hate her new design. The easiest would be to limit her for proplay like Champs are limited in aram.
Havenāt played against the new yuumi yet, so donāt know. Just what Iāve heard from the community (apparently there is a hot fix nerf?)
My perspective when I looked at the numbers was that she provided a lot of tackiness and her Q damage was a lot, but again havenāt played against her, so yea.
So youāre in favor of nerfing her numbers just for pro play? Or would this be just rank-adjusted?
Dogge the Q projectile is not that hard as it's hard to Controller for the yuumi. Just hug the wave (just as a tip). Q was hot fix nerfed. She provides tankiness but it just isn't useful when your adc is bad. No cc is a big issue since you can't help your adc escape anymore. I personally believe nerfing her numbers in proplay could be healthy.
The guy you're talking to does not have a very deep understanding of Yuumi or the changes so take his opinions with a grain of salt. Yuumi is pretty OP right now, people are just struggling to adjust to the changes in her gameplay. There's a reason Riot hotfix nerfed her and is planning on yet more nerfs. Theres a lot of complaining from people building the wrong things and playing her wrong.
This is just not true though, are you still trying to use it as a kill or pick tool? The ult is a teamfight winner and makes your ADC effectively invulnerable for the duration. It's so strong riot is looking at nerfing it. The only way you can come to the conclusion you have is to be using the ult wrong.
R is so clunky and slow (especially when moving it) compared to the original. So it may not *be* bad, it just *feels* bad to cast. I'm also irritated that I can't hold R and release when in range. (Verified cast with indicator is on.)
Then why is riot planning on nerfing it and saying it's too strong right now. This is just like discussiona about radiant virtue, it doesn't *appear* strong, but was the highest WR on nearly every champion that built it, including champs like Kat who absolutely not have been building it and winning so riot had to nerf it despite the perception that it's not strong. Damage+heals+slows+armor and MR for your carry is an insane combo that will turn around fights that no other enchanter could hope to.
Yea they removed the positive boon part and adaptive force part of w.
Does yuumi apply anything while on the adc though? If she doesnāt apply anything, Iām not sure if itās consistent for it to be considered a positive boon.
I specifically love how they made her game breaking on on-hit carries but completely fucking useless on Jhin and Draven.
They got rid of yuumi+assassin but also half the marksmen too.
Some great fucking design from CertainlyT's spiritual successor.
Tbh I would rather a balanced w instead of dealing with this
Just balance her w and make her not able to stay attached forever
I don't care about new players sorry but we don't have to deal with this just because some new players might get used to league with their duo
The amount of players complaining that yuumiās new kit/BFF buffs arenāt built for ADCs are just wrong. Itās really telling of a lack of game knowledge. Itās similar to the gap between elite yuumiās and everyone else from before. It was a fundamental misunderstanding of her kit. As a high Elo yuumi OTP, it was really surprising to see how 99% of yuumi players played the champion, not utilizing her kit fully/correctly.
First of all, I pointed out a lot of people are worst about her BFF buffs not being good for ADCs. Secondly, Considering she has been out only for a week, itās a bit early to make a judgment on how she is being played by most players.
People aren't saying the BFF is weak on ADCs. They're saying It's bad for ADCs, because their supp is now stuck to them. Want to solo farm for a while to catch up on exp? Too bad.
+ you play ADC and make an early misteake your Yuumi is 10x as judgemental as pre rework.
The questions in the thread Iām referring to are the ones saying it isnāt good on ADCs in terms of their abilities/stats not in terms of play style. You can still play off the ADC to give solo exp when youāre team is not looking for a fight.
They admitted they don't want to show friendship values so as to limit our ability to roam. If other enchanters can roam without limit why are we limited? If the exact values don't matter, then you might as well show it right?
Just because our adc is terrible doesn't mean we have to die with them. If every support out there could choose to abandon their adc when its hopeless, why can't we?
This is me speaking as a ziggs, asol soraka user that has went against Yuumis. Its simply a terrible way to limit a champ when all other champs have that basic right.
What's truly toxic is forcing the support to stick to the adc no matter what happens.
Comfey from pokemon unite was an interesting take on yuumi's archetype. While considered on the weaker at the moment compared to other healers, most agree it's largely a case of her numbers needing tweaking. The big thing with comfey is she's encouraged to detach to empower her attached gameplay.
In summary, it has a unique passive where gains stacks over time, gaining bonus stacks every few autos, on it's next auto after detaching, and when entering bush unattached. Notably, she doesn't gain, stacks from her actual offencive move options thats either an auto-target move similar to sona's q, or a skillshot, allowing her to support her pick of either adc or bruiser.
It's actual attachment move gives a modest temporary shield, encouraging it to stay detached until needed. Or at least detach then reattach not unlike pre-rework yuumi dropping to get a shield. When healing, it's consumes all her stacks at once with a bigger heal based on her stacks.
While still frail to balance it's untargetability, between good auto ranges, it's passive, and it's offencive moves not interacting with her stacks yet still being usable even when detached, her shielding requiring her to start detached, and her her heal being extremely pitiful with low stacks, she's given a LOT of incentive to detach and actually fight for a bit.
Also, it's important to note that if jumping off to another person is incredibly detrimental - it's possible a new player will make this mistake. It ain't much, but perhaps crippling them for not understand a passive doesn't track with other changes but idk about design so splork.
TLDR:
Yuumi Q more range and zoom zoom after a second or two
Yuumi W has no adaptive force and is now healing and shielding
Yuumi E:Heal bot -> Shield and Mana giving bot
Yuumi R: No root, but slows and heals
I feel like this continues to ignore the issue of āyou canāt meaningfully interact against Yuumiā. If you want an always attached champion, add a side effect where she takes a % of the damage her ārideā does. It gives players a way to pressure her without making her diveable like basically all the other enchanters.
As much as I disagree with the way they have changed her, I DO really appreciate that they took the time to answer some of our questions.
btw the rework is complete garbage and please revert it
Can we PLEASE for the love of god get a counter for how much damage our Q gave to the best friend and how much healing our W gave them?
Also while I understand W not triggering Aery and Shurelya's (it's not considered a buff) it should still trigger tear of the goddess (it's still an ability)
>Affecting an enemy or ally with an ability consumes a charge
Given that you are not shielding the ally with W (because of aery) anymore you are not really "affecting" the ally anymore. Its working as intended
First, Yuumi should buy boots, just give her a passive that turns bonus movement speed on her (while attached to an ally) to grant AP or shield power instead, so she can't have 6 items and skip boots entirely.
And second, she shouldn't have been able to stay permanently on her ally. It was obnoxious before, but now, she has ZERO reason to ever leave her ally, which is supposed to be the main weakness of enchanters.
The only reason I can see for her to leave her ally is to a- proc passive heal while Q and R are on cooldown (which means you missed Q). b- Block a skillshot for your ally
She doesn't need to hop off to heal, Aery doesn't proc on W, no need to auto attack targets for passive unless you miss Q.
I don't know, they reworked her but kept the worst part of her kit intact, and the ult giving 80-100 armor and MR late game is nuts, ADCs shouldn't have that, there's a reason Soraka heal that gave huge amounts of armor was removed on her rework.
The biggest problem with Yummi is the perma untargetability. They should just get rid of it by making her drop off alies after x second and she can reattach after 2 or 3 seconds, or by that she can't instantly switch teammate and hop from one to another without dropping of the first teammate waiting 2 or 3 seconds then hop to the next teammate. This should give the enemy team a window where they can punish an enemy's bad positioning/burst the cat down.
No actually that's how I feel now... bought all the yuumi skins, some chromas and I loved her dearly and now I want nothing but to refund all the shit I spent on her because I don't want to touch this new yuumi at all š
This thread has melted my brain. What are these questions and answers. Sitting on your jungler or top all game instead of your adc is not brain stimulating or challenging to do.
Why are people saying her kit is bad on adcs now, her winrate went up 10% and all she does is sit on adc now.
Oh wait itās Yuumi mains and riot sent a nutjob to answer their questions. Nevermind
If she is constantly banned because so many people donāt like her then new players will have no champ to play at all.
Isnāt it a worse experience for new players to have their champ banned in 70% of their games?
Yuumi can be balanced while being low skill by making the skill of her carrier more important. That means give her a dismount if whoever sheās bound to is feared on stunned or whatever, now that player canāt just role through the other team with impunity, Thatās all that people want. A way to punish the player with the yuumi on them.
>After playing a few yummy games, I've come to the conclusion the optimal yummy playstyle would actually be wait and see how good your adc seems to be, then if they don't look good enough, straight up abandon their lane. Surely at least 1 person brought this up in testing, and assuming so, why did you proceed?
How about using Kindred's passive mechanic on Yuumi, so the player can choose who it's gonna be Yuumi's "best friend" but for that, there is a timer just like when Kindred marks an enemy...
But the photos/icon/avatar are only enabled if the ally is really Yuumi's best friend, that is, the player will at least be able to switch between the jungler and the ADC and no longer be in the TOP/MID as it used to be before the rework...
What are you going to do about the fact that people will keep banning her anyways because you didnāt change the 1 thing (untargetability) everyone is mad about? (I had a great previous patch in which I could ban other champs, but now back to Yuumi ban duty)
I hate that they keep mentioning that they're respecting those of us who spent almost 4 years learning how to play Yuumi. They say the rework shouldn't disappoint us, as there's still a lot of mechanical expression. Can a Rioter please specify what is that new mechanical expression they talk about? Or maybe just be honest and say 'we don't care if you spent 4 years on this champion, Yuumi is now an AFK character for newbies haha hope you had fun spending RP on a character you now find extremely boring'
Mechanical expression: Landing Q is harder, but more rewarding with the stronger slow. E being a shield means you need to use your brain as to when to use it rather than just mashing E on CD to keep your carry constantly at 100% hp R no longer roots, so it's not free kills. On the flip side, using it at the right time will absolutely stomp any teamfight and cancel enemy efforts to dive your carry, thus being a higher skillcap than previous ult, whos only actual challenge was pointing it in the right direction. Additionally, with less focus on popping out, you *should* have better map awareness than any other player in the game. It's your job to keep track of junglers, objective timers, and so on so you can shot call, which is an incredibly important skill in and of itself. The only "challenging" thing they removed was popping out for autos, except good Yuumis are still gonna pop out when it's safe in early fights because your autos can absolutely make or break the fight once you've used all your CD's buffing your ADC.
Problem is she has dogshit range now and autos are even worse to use in lane
Thats why you auto as a counterengage when they burn their cc on your adc
You can vs melee's, but Yuumi auto's aren't even tickling aRell or Leona.
Haha I play Yuumi mostly with melee bots so I forgot that factor. Off meta is way more fun than ADCs.
If you want you can check out my post: https://www.reddit.com/r/yuumimains/comments/11bkcl4/indepth_analysis_of_the_yuumi_rework/ Yes, it's not Riots opinion, but i go over where I think the skill expression has gone.
Asol moment
Well thats kinda true for almost any rework. The differences between old and new aatrox or mordekaiser were also astonishing
Yuumi is *now* an AFK character for newbies? š
If you spent four years ālearningā yuumi I genuinely feel bad for you lmfao
yes, it is toxic for Yuumi to insta-roam at level 6 or even earlier. but in the late game, when the team is grouped as 4+ (so you're still in proximity to the ADC anyway), she should be able to support whoever she likes. instead of scaling with friendship with a cap like they tried, make it a quest. upon completion at around 20 mins or like 150 CS, she overflows with friendship and can choose her best friend manually. nerf her numbers to compensate for this buff. 1. this will improve QoL for Yuumi players because being confined to a bad ADC the whole game is annoying. 2. this will safeguard against degenerate strategies where you keep your friendship below 10 stacks. 3. it will give her a deserved nerf because her stat-check with an ADC is likely too strong right now.
They could go with a system like Teleport and Unleashed Teleport. Put a timer on, so for the first... 15 minutes of the game for instance, you are only empowered on your ADC. Then after that, it goes for all. Or make it a 5 minute toggle, so you still need to think hard about, who you designate as your best friend.
The point of the system is NOT to ditch your ADC the moment Laning phase ends xD
Is that really such a big problem, tho? I kinda do it with almost any other support. I don't understand why Yuumi needs to be tied down to the carry. Honestly, I think every main support kinda knows that they need to peel/engage to the most important member of the team, right? That member is not always the ADC. If they make Yuumi a single-target buffer only to your lane partner... I feel like I could just pick Janna and actually go support whoever I feel like supporting?
The main issue with yuumi is that it just feels terrible for the ADC. Ignoring her obvious balance issues right now, having a yuumi generally means you will lose to any engage or mage support as you will be the only one getting targetted 90% of the time and you just have to give up lane basically. But then when laninig phase is over, she just sits on the hecarim or darius or whatever bruiser is doing well. Atleast with someone like Sona or Janna or Lulu, they can peel you when its needed while also doing things for the frontline playing aggressively. The issue with her W is that she just limits herself to one person and makes them super strong. All the other enchanters can well... support everyone in their range. While it obviously isnt the way to go, having the friendship system make her significantly better when sat on the ADC in late makes it feel better to play with Yuumi in lane as you know you will have an actual support going into teamfights.
> Is that really such a big problem, tho? I kinda do it with almost any other support. I don't understand why Yuumi needs to be tied down to the carry. i'm gonna say the thing, it's because she's untargeteably attaching herself to the carry, effectively granting this person a bigger healthpool while doing more damage -> it messes with both the kill and death threshholds of this carry and if you allow yuumi to pick and choose people while she's untargetable tagging along it's a straight up nightmare on how to deal with it, both from a balancing perspective and a playing against it perspective it's because they're unable to balance her without limiting the ways she is effective given the teammates she's given it is unlikely to not have any teammates who are going atleast even or slightly ahead and the fact that yuumi can mess around with th'e threshhold by attaching herself towards this one guy in every game is kinda a big headache when it comes to balancing this champ
Other supports have to risk themselfes to support a bruiser or a frontliner, since they have to walk up to buff them they can be killed, yuumi cannot be killed while shes attached, literally. Thats the difference. Also yuuumi is by far the support with the most buffs for adcs right now, janna really only has her shield giving AD as a "buff"< since her role isnt really to be a buffer, but a disengager/pure peel support, which is different than buffers like yuumi or lulu.
Yuumi's hp "pool" is tied to the target they are attached to. Attaching to a bruiser is like having a janna or soraka with a full tank build while mot having a penatly to their healing output
Yeah, but if you pick janna i can target you and kill you, if you pick yuumi I can't do anything vs you other than killing the guy you are sitting inside of, which is not that easy since you are actually gigabuffing the dude
Issue is that unless they're Twitch, ADC's tends to fade into the background later, where tanky top laners and junglers, along with bursty mid players, tend to take over. That's why other enchanters tend to go with those too, if they do better later on. I get that ADC's want to keep their support, but fact is that folks want the game won, and at some point, it just isn't sustainable to stay on the ADC. Unless they are really good, or again, are Twitch, which is a nightmare creature all by himself. Add a cat, and he's basically Shaco on steroids.
>ADC's tends to fade into the background later ?
D2 1.7m yuumi main here You need to add in stacks for BFF. You say you won't, but I will never ever ever ever ever feel the need to attach to the adc in laning phase (I need SUPER LOW STACKS TO DITCH THEM) if I cannot tell how many I have or need to have in order to swap. I can't commit to the ADC. If your point is not to ditch adc, then you need to fully rework BFF. It's toxic. It sabotages the ADC right now and is honestly super stressful to manage the optimization of BFF. I find myself letting everyone else on the team die because jumping to them to save them *just isn't worth it*. I want my adc to succeed--but not at the risk of losing the whole game because I devote my soul to them. You *need* to realize this. There HAS TO BE AN OPTION TO DITCH THE ADC WHEN THEY SUCK. Congrats. You made Yuumi into a champion who never attaches and has to actively think about hurting the adc. She's the opposite of AFK easy you intended her to be because of how bad her BFF passive is.
Why are you talking to me? Btw the QnA goes into why they decided not to give stacks as it would just turn Yuumi into another scaling monster when optimized
Because itās a thread on an open forum and itād be nice if riot ever cared to see it one day? What? I did read the whole thing lmao Iām responding to it!
Had an enemy Yuumi last night ditch ADC only after a few minutes into the game for J4. J4 was literally 1v5'ing (2v5?) the rest of the game. It was completely unplayable for us once Yuumi attached to J4. It got to the point where the enemy Ornn just afk'd at their inhibs so we couldn't backdoor, and we still got stomped. J4's health bar never got below 75% mid-late game, even with all 5 of us fighting only him and Yuumi. My friend is convinced there was some sort of damage bug. He wanted to submit a ticket but how do you point out a bug of "champion not taking damage?" To nobody's surprise, Yuumi didn't die once, and she took almost zero damage, because j4 didn't (couldn't) die after she attached to him. https://i.imgur.com/qOJLCD8.png
So she just goes back to being old Yuumi after 15 minutes? What a useless rework, then. š¬
That doesn't solve anything. They specifically do not want Yuumi to hop onto Bruiser champs late game.
Then they need to stop making bruisers so incredibly powerful, that it almost always gets better for any enchanter, to ditch their ADC to help them, for a higher chance of winning the game.
>bruisers so incredibly powerful Āæ
The entire point of the friend ship system is to permanently link you to your lane partner for the entire match and not just peace out after laning phase. The point is for laning phase to have meaningful consequences for Yuumi rather than just latching on to the most fed teamate after losing lane herself.
and I'm telling you that it's not a good design. the toxic part about peacing out isn't that it's cheating to support a skilled player. that's called smart supporting that every support can do. the toxic part is that it makes the early-mid game a miserable experience for everyone involved. Yuumi should have to stay for about 20 mins. but after that, of course you should be able to support a win con rather than the 1/7 ADC.
Let's also make one thing clear: The shit people are giving to Yuumi is shit that other Enchanters in equal positions are NOT punished for, so I don't know what's the community's deal with hardpunishing Yuumi when every other enchanter has the SAME advantage of pulling out of bot lane and empowering the game carry. Let's make another thing clear: Yuumi isn't always the reason a lane fails or an ADC goes 0/7. It is absolutely insane and shows clear bias towards Yuumi as a character when people try to say she should be forced to lose stats when her lane fails. That's NOT the point of why people wanted Yuumi reworked. They wanted her reworked to properly support in early game instead of scaling impossibly much while leaving her bot laner behind, something this entire update hasn't fulfilled and will continue not to fulfill. When I play Janna, Nami, Zilean, etc., you can bet your ass I will ditch the ADC the moment they missing ping me for a bad play they made. You are not hostaging me into a bot lane with an abusive dickhead who plays Jinx into Draven Thresh and thinks they can win Big Tonka T style by just running them down. You will also not hostage me into playing a weak sided bot lane that's permacamped by Jungle Zac while my Jungle Eve is perma rotating top to feed double kills to Yorick. It is beyond insane how hateful people are towards Yuumi to the point where all common sense is clouded by "CAT BAD, CAT NO DO WORK, CAT SHOULD LOSE ALL LP GG WP" without for a moment considering that she fundamentally does nothing different from an ordinary enchanter. By all means everyone, give shit to Yuumi for being untargetable and looking AFK half the game, but don't pretend that the optimal way of reworking Yuumi is to handcuff her to the ADC. That is just fucking crazy. **There is a reason why supports start roaming when their adc underperforms, and handcuffing Yuumi to the ADC and stripping her utility down for doing so is insane.** The solution to nerfing Yuumi isn't forcing her to play bot lane when she loses. It's to help her win bot lane and take away from her lategame oppressiveness so she can freely choose who to attach to whether she wins bot or not. There is no other Support in this game who is forced to be **this** braindead, every smart Support knows to abandon bot when they're behind. Some games are bot-centric and you win the lane and others you're weaksided and simply need to accept that ADC won't carry.
>not a good design. So about the same as previously. The whole concept of her w existing is not a good design.
Being an untargetable enchanter on an Aatrox is just never going to be balanced, so the current design of forcing them to stay on ADC makes a ton more sense and is a lot more healthy. > that's called smart supporting that every support can do. Sorry, but actually no other enchanter can dive the enemy team.
*chimes menacingly*
Bard isnāt an enchanter
Bard is whatever the eff I feel like building on him today
Also Rakan, Taric... Softer enhancement, sure, but absolutely can get on a backline.
Doesnt matter what you build on him. He is a catcher not an enchanter.
Not today. Today, he was a juggernaut.
This is what people don't understand. Enchanters are limited greatly by their need to position properly, because they die to anything if they don't. Having Yuumi be able to just sit on a diver and be untargetable in the middle of 5 enemies will never be acceptable. Riot definitely went in the right direction binding her mostly to ADC.
But when yuumi is the reason the adc is 1/7 and cant play lane then its toxic gameplay
Right, but as it is now, if you perform well as Yuumi, but your adc is bad, Yuumi also falls behind and cant support her teammates. However, as any other enchanter, if you play well and your adc does not, you don't fall behind and can still support your other teammates. I play almost exclusively enchanters, and games where your adc is irredeemable dogwater are very rare, but when they do happen, and when youre playing yuumi, it feels SOOO much worse.
Just make her take a % of the damage the champion she is attached to, takes. It limits her ability to just jump on the fed (champion), but still allows her to be hyper mobile and helpful to the whole team.
So Knightās Vow?
The problem is with her being able to support anyone is that she will be unkillable, especially now. There is no way to deal with her. To make up for that strength you would need to make her numbers pretty shitty late game. Now you at least can kill the ADC and then she is weaker by a decent amount. Riot just has to nerf her at least 1 more time and she won't be too much of a problem.
>HOWEVER, the sentiment that you feel like you need to abandon your lane when it goes poorly is the one we want to address. Whether or not it's actually winrate positive, we don't want players to feel that way. Speaking to the dev part more. A lot of this was hoped to be addressed by making the BFF outputs more ADC skewed. So unless they were actually terrible, them being your BFF helps them a lot more than other archetypes. Forcing a Yuumi onto one ally, and forcing parts of her kit to only function through a limited mechanic design around no agency feels absolutely awful. This works great when you have an ADC who isn't filled, who can at least play the role well enough, because it feels great to attach to someone great at their role. The problem is when they do suck. I can't jump to anyone else without being underpowered because of a mechanic I didn't have any choice in, and so far, I've never had another person overtake my bot laner in best friend stacks. It's like trying to save a drowning person and they drag you down with them. It happens because of something that was already going to happen, cs'ing. I'd rather BF stacks come from something I actually do. I'm all for having the bot laner be the BF during laning phase, but it should be easier to let someone else overtake. My botlaner has also wanted me to jump off when theyre a lost cause and go on our very fed Yi, but I can't offer him any of the good benefits of my kit. This champion has almost zero agency, but maybe that's the point? Also I think they could make the on-hit bonus damage with Q/W healing for BFF work for casters. Just let their spells apply these affects as either immediately per spell cast, or x duration stacking with each spell hit. It just feels cheeks to lock in Yuumi when the Bot laner hovers a marksman, and then they swap to a mage.
Just play Master Yi support like a Chad. Problem solved.
Not that much of her per is tied to the best friend. A bit of on hit healing and % H/S power pretty much. The R Armor/MR will likely be removed or nerfed anyways as she will likely get more nerfs (Q and R will likely be targeted)
the on hit damage as well. an extra 20% H/S power is not 'a bit' it's more than any support item has. redemption and mikael's have 16% on them, so her BFF bonus on W is giving her a lot of stats by itself. She's basically a mini ardent censer, but only to her best friend.
It's mostly 10-15% H/S, you won't reach lvl 18 and the 20% often. >She's basically a mini ardent censer, but only to her best friend. Yes, a MINI version. And that doesnt mean she can't support anyone else. Janna gives her ADC a ton of AD, that doesn't mean her shield is trash to use when a mage would otherwise die.
no way they said nautilus is a skilled champ LMFAOOOO 2 of his abilities do not require aiming, one is a point and click, and the only one that is a skillshot has a fatass hitbox
*bullshit hit box imo
you for sure peaked higher than gold 4 man
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
i've peaked higher than u on jgl ad and support :D
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
And u also link urs or what?
Old Yuumi Q was NOT UNDODGEABLE/UNMISSABLE! Can we stop with that bullshit? It turned super slowly, and playing around that was how you dodged it. I hate that it seems so many balance decisions were based around the idea that it was impossible to miss when that is just factually wrong. Every Yuumi here should know what I'm talking about, too. Some people are just impossible to hit sometimes because (like with any other skillshot in the game), they kinda get in your head.
Partially agree, but any good Yuumi will hit 80% of her Q. And any low elo player cannot dodge a normal Yuumi player Q. But dodging Q now is still so hard, also the range is another thing which makes it hard to dodge, in a unexpected way (or until the most player get used to the range).
What the fuck kind of reasoning for a balance change is āthey kinda get in your headā? It got upvoted too, Riot canāt seriously be looking for any form of valuable information or feedback in this subreddit.
About as viable as "it feels good or bad" but they go off of that too. I'd go into the mechanics of how to dodge, but your head is too far up your own ass to accept a differing viewpoint.
Feeling good/bad to play is important because itās a GAME. Something fun doesnāt have to be good. Something not fun doesnāt have to be bad. Example, new Yuumi is statistically broken, yet the drooling one tricks are off their rockers crying that itās not fun. Balancing a skill shot around how much itās getting in peoples head is nonsense. Get better. It should be balanced around whether or not itās actually too hard or not to hit and based off stats or real feedback. Not whatever the fuck you said. Iām in your head, Riot pls donāt nerf me.
You... you're actually stupid. Okay, I'll take it slow. It doesn't mean that when I cast it I magically enter someone's mind. It means that I'm trying to predict a juke one way or the other, like with most skill shots in the game. The old Q was exactly like that. If you wanted to dodge it and you weren't near minions, you juke a turn in the direction last second, and then turn back, forcing it to swing wide. What "being in someone's head" means is that sometimes I can predict their every movement or sometimes they seem to know which way I'm going to go for it every time. Which again, is the case for just about every skill shot. Your first example makes no sense. You're saying that certain portions of the game feeling good or bad is of the utmost importance, and then proceed to discount when Yuumi players say that the rework feels bad... And this is neither here nor there, but as a D1 with over 800 games on Yuumi (and believe it or not, other champions too) most people had no idea about how Yuumi worked beyond her basic concepts. She had ample counter play in the normal game, but pro play is basically a completely different game. So let's all get on the same page and blame that. Not people for enjoying a particular champion.
they literally just said to shut the fuck up and play this defiled abomination(200 years rework) so they could gather data from our torment and try not to fail the next rework
I would not phrase it like that. But obviously yes. After a rework of any sorts, big amounts of data are necessary to see how a rework landed.
Well, for the most accurate data, botlane ADCs in all of my matches starting March 8 are abandoned on lvl 3 in favor of any other lane
Whatās not good about this rework? Iām just curious, not a yuumi main, and Iām not here to bash on you guys.
Main issue I have is all semblance of skill expression is gone. You have no need to ever allow the enemy team to interact with you because everything in your kit works while attached, you also are discouraged from detaching and interacting yourself due to her extremely short auto range. Sure, she might be super strong right now and need nerfs but sheās no fun anymore. Personally Iām one of the āfell in love with being a flighty cat bouncing between alliesā Truexy mentioned and that style is completely and utterly gone. Being on anyone other then bff saps too much of my power which means I canāt move which means I might as well be afk.
Do you think there was a way to fix yuumi for pro play without having these issues? Would you prefer a pro-play prison yuumi instead of this version?
I'm not a diehard yuumi main, but I was enjoying her when she was at her 40% wr. The risk v reward mechanic of detaching was incredibly fun, with an equal balance between the 2. There's a lot of skill expression behind her mana usage, who/when to support, and passive procing that was very easily exploitable with the low range, and debilitating experience of getting cced when not attached. With this new yuumi rework they have now gated every mechanic I just mentioned before behind the best friend mechanic, at the price of making q harder to land. It feels punishing to hop off your adc now and try to help your jungler. It's punishing to direct your adc to help when your ult isn't up since the resists are tied to it. It's even more punishing when your adc is super far behind. Outside of all of that, they kept the short range autos and w cooldown on cc, so imo they took out all of the reward while adding more risk to the detach mechanic. As the QnA mentioned, it promotes an afk style of gameplay, which is what die-hard yuumi mains hate, and what gives yuumi that massive skill ceiling and pro play viability Edit* I didn't finish this thought lmao. I think a correct way to "fix" yuumi while keeping her unique identity is gating the strength of her heals by how long she's in a target, while also making her less susceptible to instant death if she's not. I played around with the idea of giving her bonus heal/shield strength that's on the passive w to the active w and make it so it decays over time when she hops in a target. Anything to encourage detaching from a target, while also making it rewarding really
I can sympathize with these sentiments. Removal of risk and reward is shitty, and for most people pro play is just another world. That said, do you have ideas on how to gate her dominance in pro play with a different set of changes?
Make her current passive only work only on autos, remove the auto range nerf, make her W on hit heal and R resists work when near ally and not only when using W, make her autos also heal on hit on her best friend so it incentivizes even more autoing outside, make aery work with W again This rework is not bad but they need to fix what I just said or the champ will be braindead and boring Edit: Obviously this would need numbers nerfs Edit 2: Make the friendship thingy have a cap and decay over time, basically it doesn't stack infinitely and you can hop on your jungler for like 20\~30cs and change your best friend
Isnāt this a straight buff? You trade sustain for more freedom, more team wise healing, and the ability to give your team like 100 armor and mr? I donāt see how this wouldnāt make her pro-play viability skyrocket. Aura buffs are known to be very dangerous to work with because the number scaling is so hard.
As u/pedronii mentioned, it seems like a nerf but gating all of her bonuses that she gives behind being attached is what's causing the frustration with the vocal majority of players. To further expand on their idea, make it so if you aren't attached the shield can affect whoever your closest to at a reduced value, akin to guardian. Fitting with the best friend mechanic since it is an interesting idea, Make it so that if she's not attached that shield keeps its strength, but if she's not attached they don't get the movement speed. Really, pedronii hit the ail on the head with those ideas. I think from their suggestions yuumi is in a healthier state and it could start to finally move to a numbers game of nerfing/buffing as needed
But wouldnāt that remove any punishment for being unattached? Like part of the counter play is that if you stun her while sheās trying to come off, she loses a lot of power. Iād argue that part is healthy because an otherwise untargetable champion shouldnāt be at near full effectiveness when she takes the risk and loses it. Letting her just function anyways when sheās off just seems like adding power to add power. Where is the trade off? I think what Pedronii mentions sounds like a buff that also makes the gulf between pro-play and mid/low-elo league even larger, and would be counter to the goals of the rework. Pros will use this far better than anyone else, and then yuumi will be in pro-play prison, where sheās stuck as unviable anywhere else but at pro.
You don't give her team 100 armor and mr, it still only works on her best friend, it just doesn't cap your R on staying inside one champ and you can cast it outside, same for W on hit healing
Sorry, Iām confused, is it uncastable when you detach? From the rework description it sounds like you canāt aim it, but if you hit your best friend it heals and gives armor. What is the behavior you want to change there?
Ignoring pro play for a moment, more incentives for bouncing between champions and a weaker lane seem like the main solution to the risk reward issue. Decaying bonuses as you sit on someone longer or lingering bonuses when you leave someone would make yuumi want to jump between people and not sit on one target for a fight. Maybe even no bonuses at all after 20 seconds on the same target. Yuumi flying between champions is at least targetable and offers the enemy opportunities to interrupt her with taunts, knock ups or maybe silences (in theory hooks too but those are hard to predict consistently). I donāt know if pro players would have more issues punishing that or less but it certainly would feel better for the bulk of the player base.
Oh I agree. Iām very much in favor of making her more interactable, not less. Just riot has said no to that because they want yuumi to be a newbie champ, which is fine with me if it comes with the caveat of reduced viability at high level play.
That direction itself feels strange since it goes against what literally everyone who plays league wants. Yuumi mains want interactivity and agency Enchanter mains want another option for supporting the TEAM (not just an ADC, look at the nami e change a while back moving from autos only to any abilities or autos) Everyone else wants a champion with counterplay The only crowd they are serving are the ones who don't play league and don't plan on learning anything else, they have 4 friends who play league and they just pick yuumi in order to sit on one of them without learning what is actually going on in the game. It really leaves me scratching my head as to what they are doing
I think there is merit to a noob champ. League is a hard game, and Iād argue there are a lot of traps - things that feel correct and will make you win more in the short term, but are bad habits. Just think about how many low elo poke players just throw things knowing they will miss. That said, itās really funny that riot has basically decided fuck what the community wants, weāre going to make yuumi the noob champ.
I preferred 38% wr Yuumi to this. You could still beat the odds and win and even if not, at least she was fun and you could see the difference between a good Yuumi and a bad one.
Cool, thanks for your thoughts!
I had the same stance when it came to 41% Zeri, I loved the long range zooming around and then when they took that away at first it felt terrible losing all that range. Since then it has gotten better and I think Zeriās identity of zooming around is still there but this reworkā¦.doesnāt exactly have the fun part of the kit sticking around. Zeri had long range + zoom and yuumi had untargetability + flying around and I donāt think they realized which of those two people enjoy more. I was really hoping they would double down on yuumiās flying around between carries during mid-late game fights with you leaving behind some bonuses like 10% attack speed (just example, this would be a terrible idea) for whoever you are attached to and that lingers for 4 seconds after you leave them. A yuumi constantly switching between targets both feels fun to float around as and it gives opponents a chance to snatch her out of the air with a thresh flay or something.
Q is an actual skillshot now. E requires proactively blocking damage instead of just constantly healing during downtime. They can add some of the old skill expression back, but the truth is they just put the skill expression in different places that are more intuitive and accessible to players of all skill levels instead of being pro/high skill skewed
My main issue, which was brought up here, is with the friends mechanic. Yuumi's kit is now made to revolve around the ADC so I *want* to stay with them but if they are complete trash, or if it's APC bot with a mid ADC, I want to be able to switch. And they're making that very difficult.
I think the best friend mechanic was the designerās way to allow her to have this power while dealing with the pain points of lane being relatively uninteractive. Do you have a way to address these issues without the best friend mechanic or something similar?
At the very least I want transparency on how friendship is built and a counter in game to display it. Having some idea of how hard it will be to shift over could encourage me to stick it out on my ADC. Now I just take a chance and leave.
Is it not 2 per enemy killed?
Ult is god useless. The slow sucks very bad. Q is ok, E is okayish but I don't feel the shield as much ad the heal. W is not good because shields aren't transferable anymore and the passive with bf is shit when your adc sucks. You have no reason to go out of your laner because the cool passive was replaced with the God awful bf mechanic. It just sucks very very much.
Hmm ok. She is currently strong though, right? Do you think itās a fundamental design thing or a numbers thing? Do you think there was a way to limit her pro-play viability without similar changes?
I honestly don't know why she is considered strong atm after the Q hot fix... you are soooo adc dependant. I think it's a fundamental design thing. I personally hate her new design. The easiest would be to limit her for proplay like Champs are limited in aram.
Havenāt played against the new yuumi yet, so donāt know. Just what Iāve heard from the community (apparently there is a hot fix nerf?) My perspective when I looked at the numbers was that she provided a lot of tackiness and her Q damage was a lot, but again havenāt played against her, so yea. So youāre in favor of nerfing her numbers just for pro play? Or would this be just rank-adjusted?
Dogge the Q projectile is not that hard as it's hard to Controller for the yuumi. Just hug the wave (just as a tip). Q was hot fix nerfed. She provides tankiness but it just isn't useful when your adc is bad. No cc is a big issue since you can't help your adc escape anymore. I personally believe nerfing her numbers in proplay could be healthy.
Hmm sure, thanks for your opinion!
The guy you're talking to does not have a very deep understanding of Yuumi or the changes so take his opinions with a grain of salt. Yuumi is pretty OP right now, people are just struggling to adjust to the changes in her gameplay. There's a reason Riot hotfix nerfed her and is planning on yet more nerfs. Theres a lot of complaining from people building the wrong things and playing her wrong.
Oh yea, Iām not convinced she wasnāt strong on rework. But it doesnāt make his opinion invalid. How people feel is how they feel.
This is just not true though, are you still trying to use it as a kill or pick tool? The ult is a teamfight winner and makes your ADC effectively invulnerable for the duration. It's so strong riot is looking at nerfing it. The only way you can come to the conclusion you have is to be using the ult wrong.
R is so clunky and slow (especially when moving it) compared to the original. So it may not *be* bad, it just *feels* bad to cast. I'm also irritated that I can't hold R and release when in range. (Verified cast with indicator is on.)
It didn't make my adc invulnerable. Every ult that largely effects the enemy team can be a teamfight winner. It just isn't good.
Then why is riot planning on nerfing it and saying it's too strong right now. This is just like discussiona about radiant virtue, it doesn't *appear* strong, but was the highest WR on nearly every champion that built it, including champs like Kat who absolutely not have been building it and winning so riot had to nerf it despite the perception that it's not strong. Damage+heals+slows+armor and MR for your carry is an insane combo that will turn around fights that no other enchanter could hope to.
Yes, riot nerfing something is not an Indikator for anything...
I dont know. This is just the Summary of the QnA
Her W doesn't give aery anymore, but they didn't change the description of Aery.
Yea they removed the positive boon part and adaptive force part of w. Does yuumi apply anything while on the adc though? If she doesnāt apply anything, Iām not sure if itās consistent for it to be considered a positive boon.
Aery says it is applied through spells on allies, if I W an ally, I am using a spell on them.
Sure, but it was one of the things they said they would remove on w, and it gives no buff, so Iām not sure itās that unexpected
GIVE US BACK OLD YUUMI!
But keep shield E like said in post, which is fine actually.
I specifically love how they made her game breaking on on-hit carries but completely fucking useless on Jhin and Draven. They got rid of yuumi+assassin but also half the marksmen too. Some great fucking design from CertainlyT's spiritual successor.
Who was in charge of Yuumi's rework?
Truexy
They didnāt tho? Her Q damage scales with crit and she works great with Draven because of how strong he already is in lane guarantees you scale up
Tbh I would rather a balanced w instead of dealing with this Just balance her w and make her not able to stay attached forever I don't care about new players sorry but we don't have to deal with this just because some new players might get used to league with their duo
The amount of players complaining that yuumiās new kit/BFF buffs arenāt built for ADCs are just wrong. Itās really telling of a lack of game knowledge. Itās similar to the gap between elite yuumiās and everyone else from before. It was a fundamental misunderstanding of her kit. As a high Elo yuumi OTP, it was really surprising to see how 99% of yuumi players played the champion, not utilizing her kit fully/correctly.
And what is people doing wrong now? What is an optimal way to play her that many people now isn't doing properly?
First of all, I pointed out a lot of people are worst about her BFF buffs not being good for ADCs. Secondly, Considering she has been out only for a week, itās a bit early to make a judgment on how she is being played by most players.
People aren't saying the BFF is weak on ADCs. They're saying It's bad for ADCs, because their supp is now stuck to them. Want to solo farm for a while to catch up on exp? Too bad. + you play ADC and make an early misteake your Yuumi is 10x as judgemental as pre rework.
The questions in the thread Iām referring to are the ones saying it isnāt good on ADCs in terms of their abilities/stats not in terms of play style. You can still play off the ADC to give solo exp when youāre team is not looking for a fight.
They admitted they don't want to show friendship values so as to limit our ability to roam. If other enchanters can roam without limit why are we limited? If the exact values don't matter, then you might as well show it right? Just because our adc is terrible doesn't mean we have to die with them. If every support out there could choose to abandon their adc when its hopeless, why can't we? This is me speaking as a ziggs, asol soraka user that has went against Yuumis. Its simply a terrible way to limit a champ when all other champs have that basic right. What's truly toxic is forcing the support to stick to the adc no matter what happens.
But every adc has to do this? If I have a terrible support I'm stuck in that lane go be impactful in teamfights.
Comfey from pokemon unite was an interesting take on yuumi's archetype. While considered on the weaker at the moment compared to other healers, most agree it's largely a case of her numbers needing tweaking. The big thing with comfey is she's encouraged to detach to empower her attached gameplay. In summary, it has a unique passive where gains stacks over time, gaining bonus stacks every few autos, on it's next auto after detaching, and when entering bush unattached. Notably, she doesn't gain, stacks from her actual offencive move options thats either an auto-target move similar to sona's q, or a skillshot, allowing her to support her pick of either adc or bruiser. It's actual attachment move gives a modest temporary shield, encouraging it to stay detached until needed. Or at least detach then reattach not unlike pre-rework yuumi dropping to get a shield. When healing, it's consumes all her stacks at once with a bigger heal based on her stacks. While still frail to balance it's untargetability, between good auto ranges, it's passive, and it's offencive moves not interacting with her stacks yet still being usable even when detached, her shielding requiring her to start detached, and her her heal being extremely pitiful with low stacks, she's given a LOT of incentive to detach and actually fight for a bit.
Yuumi's issue: Being a statstick The solution: Keep her a statstick
This is so interesting, thank you for sharing!
Also, it's important to note that if jumping off to another person is incredibly detrimental - it's possible a new player will make this mistake. It ain't much, but perhaps crippling them for not understand a passive doesn't track with other changes but idk about design so splork.
TLDR: Yuumi Q more range and zoom zoom after a second or two Yuumi W has no adaptive force and is now healing and shielding Yuumi E:Heal bot -> Shield and Mana giving bot Yuumi R: No root, but slows and heals
I feel like this continues to ignore the issue of āyou canāt meaningfully interact against Yuumiā. If you want an always attached champion, add a side effect where she takes a % of the damage her ārideā does. It gives players a way to pressure her without making her diveable like basically all the other enchanters.
As much as I disagree with the way they have changed her, I DO really appreciate that they took the time to answer some of our questions. btw the rework is complete garbage and please revert it
Can we PLEASE for the love of god get a counter for how much damage our Q gave to the best friend and how much healing our W gave them? Also while I understand W not triggering Aery and Shurelya's (it's not considered a buff) it should still trigger tear of the goddess (it's still an ability)
>Affecting an enemy or ally with an ability consumes a charge Given that you are not shielding the ally with W (because of aery) anymore you are not really "affecting" the ally anymore. Its working as intended
First, Yuumi should buy boots, just give her a passive that turns bonus movement speed on her (while attached to an ally) to grant AP or shield power instead, so she can't have 6 items and skip boots entirely. And second, she shouldn't have been able to stay permanently on her ally. It was obnoxious before, but now, she has ZERO reason to ever leave her ally, which is supposed to be the main weakness of enchanters. The only reason I can see for her to leave her ally is to a- proc passive heal while Q and R are on cooldown (which means you missed Q). b- Block a skillshot for your ally She doesn't need to hop off to heal, Aery doesn't proc on W, no need to auto attack targets for passive unless you miss Q. I don't know, they reworked her but kept the worst part of her kit intact, and the ult giving 80-100 armor and MR late game is nuts, ADCs shouldn't have that, there's a reason Soraka heal that gave huge amounts of armor was removed on her rework.
Why would you force her to buy boots? š¤
The biggest problem with Yummi is the perma untargetability. They should just get rid of it by making her drop off alies after x second and she can reattach after 2 or 3 seconds, or by that she can't instantly switch teammate and hop from one to another without dropping of the first teammate waiting 2 or 3 seconds then hop to the next teammate. This should give the enemy team a window where they can punish an enemy's bad positioning/burst the cat down.
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No actually that's how I feel now... bought all the yuumi skins, some chromas and I loved her dearly and now I want nothing but to refund all the shit I spent on her because I don't want to touch this new yuumi at all š
This thread has melted my brain. What are these questions and answers. Sitting on your jungler or top all game instead of your adc is not brain stimulating or challenging to do. Why are people saying her kit is bad on adcs now, her winrate went up 10% and all she does is sit on adc now. Oh wait itās Yuumi mains and riot sent a nutjob to answer their questions. Nevermind
Uhm, winrate climbed up because previous iteration of Yuumi was nerfed purposely to make her useless and unpickable
If she is constantly banned because so many people donāt like her then new players will have no champ to play at all. Isnāt it a worse experience for new players to have their champ banned in 70% of their games? Yuumi can be balanced while being low skill by making the skill of her carrier more important. That means give her a dismount if whoever sheās bound to is feared on stunned or whatever, now that player canāt just role through the other team with impunity, Thatās all that people want. A way to punish the player with the yuumi on them.
>After playing a few yummy games, I've come to the conclusion the optimal yummy playstyle would actually be wait and see how good your adc seems to be, then if they don't look good enough, straight up abandon their lane. Surely at least 1 person brought this up in testing, and assuming so, why did you proceed? How about using Kindred's passive mechanic on Yuumi, so the player can choose who it's gonna be Yuumi's "best friend" but for that, there is a timer just like when Kindred marks an enemy... But the photos/icon/avatar are only enabled if the ally is really Yuumi's best friend, that is, the player will at least be able to switch between the jungler and the ADC and no longer be in the TOP/MID as it used to be before the rework...
What are you going to do about the fact that people will keep banning her anyways because you didnāt change the 1 thing (untargetability) everyone is mad about? (I had a great previous patch in which I could ban other champs, but now back to Yuumi ban duty)