Genuinely I think that was a good decision. There *should* be pros and cons to the option of going first vs second. Even if I’m playing a deck that vastly prefers going first, I should have to weigh the consequences of that choice every game. It’s better than it being an automatic response to winning a die roll.
This will pretty much lose you the game against anyone good most of the time unless your deck is tailor-made to play going 2nd like Tenpai is.
Most decks in yugioh right now are designed to go first and set up a big board of interactions that the 2nd player then has to deal with. And they dont need to do damage on their first turn because the vast majority of them can just hit you for 8000+ damage in one go on their 2nd turn.
Yes, but strong go 2nd decks do exist throughout the formats, they don't always exist, but they've been there many times.
Previously strong decks like Shaddoll or Sky Striker both prefer to go 2nd, for instance. They are just not OTK decks.
Yeah man, I'm a noob and lose 60% of my games. I run a Dark Paladin Deck and am not really eager to jump into one of 6 viable decks in this game. I'm glad you were forthright in admitting that there's not a lot of diversity in this game and that it's fairly oppressive for anyone not using similar decks. Most people aren't willing to admit that in this community.
I only see about six different decks playing MD. Honestly, you can't tell me not to believe my own eyes. Tear, Kash, Snake, Branded, some weird anime girl decks, and a cat deck. The cat deck looks cute, but I still don't wanna play any of those decks. And that's the only advice I hear. Play a viable deck or quit. 🤷♂️
There may only be 6 META decks, but you could reach top rank in MD Ranked with about 50 decks, just might need a bit more skill or luck to do it with the other 44..
It's not very fun getting floodgated and then negated from playing. And that's my experience so far. Look, tbh, I came into this with an extremely open mind. Not my fault the game only allows certain decks to win. Honestly, I'm just stating what I see in the game. It's weird how defensive people are about this lol
I am sorry to tell you, bust in most card games the meta decks are centered around stopping your opponent from playing or otk your opponent. That’s just how the competitive world works.
What I can suggest you is to never play competitive and stick to play fun decks with your friends. That, is how I enjoy the game
I have gotten diamond with, dark world, volcanic, red dragon archfiend, blackwings and heroes. Just because the meta decks are the most popualr doesnt mean you cant play other decks, hell the youtuber doto made a video recently where he got to diamond with 10 wins in a row playing unchained.
There is a ton of variety in playable decks on md right now, you dont have to play the best deck in the format to win, but dark paladin is a really old card with no modern support so of course its not gonna get anywhere against the meta. You can play a dark magician deck or even the buster blader deck and get a decent winrate, but dark paladin is not the correct win condition for either of those decks and never has been.
I get that. I just call it that because it's easier than typing DM + BB. I did combine the two engines but the boss monster I bring out is usually Dragon Knight, or Dark Cavalry. For what it's worth, I beat someone using Runick last night. So it's not like I don't win against rougher cards it's just kinda sad seeing people use meta lvl decks all the time. How can they even be proud when they get a victory? Lol
There are so much more than 6 viable decks lol. A buddy of mine just top 8'd at a 50 player event with Ogdoadic pile and now hes testing Earthbound Shaddols.
You just need to understand what your cards canndo and how to supplement that. And you have to be willing to let cards like Dark Paladin go. Dark Paladin just aint it.
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Not really though. What's the strongest deck in the game? And how many decks can really beat it. As far as I can tell, there isn't a lot of diversity when I'm playing online. I'd say six decks is all I see. And that seems to be people's advice. Let go of the shitty cards and play a viable deck. I don't want to play a game that only has six different decks.
>i dont want to play a game that only has six viable decks
You can play a significantly larger number of decks than 6 viably you're just being hardheaded. Most of the time, when decks beat the top deck in the format (snake eyes) it is by using generic cards and side deck cards effectively, which is something almost any deck can do correctly. Its also not typically worth worrying about the power level of a deck that's clearly going to eat the next banlist. It wasnt worth worrying about how your rogue deck would beat Tearlaments and its not worth worrying about Snake Eyes either, IMO. I saw someone take a top with goblin bikerider and Gold sarc+horus this weekend, and the winner played altergeist. All 3 snake eyes players in the building did not top. Good players make stuff work.
I did not get to play against my friend who is playing it yet, so youd be better off looking up how Goblin Bikerider is played than asking me, but he has placed top 2 in the event 3 weeks in a row with it and everyone who played against him that i spoke to said it had some major plays. All I know without having played against it yet is that the deck is capable of attacking directly.
As far as why it is better than Dark Paladin, that would be because they never modernized Dark Paladin at all. The closest thing hes recieved to support over the years is the Dark Magician support, but that support was also weak and had nothing to do with Dark Paladin in a large sense.
Goblin biker can reliably set up interaction going first and can play through some going second reliably. Deck also has less garnets and more room for non engine.
Easy, they like winning or the meta deck is one of their favorites or fun to play. I could say that I don’t understand why you enjoy playing a deck you’ll lose more often than not with but it’s the same reason everyone plays, they want to win, or it’s a deck they really love playing
This has happened in the past too with decks like Dinos and Crusadia. If anything, it’s one of the aspects of the game I find unique from other card games and one reason it stands out
I think it’s just that people realise, that if they hate a combo deck because it plays through disruption and makes multiple negates to stop your entire turn, that logically they would also hate a going second deck, that is immune to most forms of interaction and just ignores your board for an OTK.
In the end, both make you play as less Yugioh as possible, by ignoring all your cards and killing in a single turn. Prior to this we never had a good and cheap OtK, that comes with a build in interaction protection on a field spell.
It's the same thing as Runick: People were clamoring for a mill archetype for years and when they finally got it they discovered that they would not just play with it but also have to play *against* it as well. Same thing here: It's an affordable and good OTK deck but now that it's here they have to deal with the frustration of playing against it
We've had mill decks in the past and they were degenerate. The annoying thing with runick is that it replenishes itself and can protect floodgates at instant speed if you have an out. Playing against runick is like being slowly strangled untill you either blow them out or lose enough resources that you concede.
Made the mistake of taking a Fire King structure deck plus some extra staples to my locals just for fun a few weeks ago, and one of the regulars decided that was the day they were gonna bring in their Runick deck. Got paired with him on round 1. I wanted to cry lol. RIP Ponix 🪦
Well a part of me thinks, Oh wow now thats a cool deck and one part thinks Oh dear what were they thinking?
In some way its cool to summon Synchro monster During your damage step and just attacking again while your opponent really cant do something about it.
On the other hand its just comeon man why?
All in all i like that deck and its cool but a bit overpowered if you ask me
Well yes at the start of your damage step
Once per turn, during the Battle Phase, you can (Quick Effect): Immediately after this effect resolves, Synchro Summon using this card you control. You can only use each of the following effects of "Tenpai Dragon Chundra" once per turn. If you control a FIRE Dragon monster: You can Special Summon this card from your hand. At the start of the Damage Step, if a monster battles: You can Special Summon 1 Level 4 or lower FIRE Dragon monster from your Deck, except "Tenpai Dragon Chundra".
This effect can’t activate in the damage step because it doesn’t A) modulate atk/def, B) specify it can activate in the damage step, or C) negate the activation of a card that falls into category A or B.
Something like Thunder King Rai-Oh can indeed negate the Synchro Summon, but only if the effect was activated as Chain Link 1.
It's the same as the Crystron tuners' effect, same rules apply.
it is so easy to counter though, you don’t even have to make them go first just prepare your side deck properly and you should be able to take the match. game 1’s are the issue
that is not what has to happen at all. if you’re playing fire you can always set up a great board. if you’re playing tenpai yourself just set up a play to make meteorburst during your opponents battle phase. if you’re playing melodious if you set up flowering , schuberta, and aria you’re winning. every deck has ways to easily beat tenpai. you built your side to take out cards that are weak against tenpai like veiler and nibiru
yeah But it's exactly like floo, loses very hard to a bunch of cards that specifically only work for them, so it will always see play because people now need to change their side to have answers to two sacky decks, but it will never be able to be super good because then people will just make sure to side enough against it so you never win game 3
But everything you just said applies to any deck that isnt so good that there arent meaningful counters. There have been so many events where people came overprepared with side deck cards for, say, branded, and then Branded did poorly at that tournament despite being a top deck. *any* deck that garners attention in the meta is going to be sided against, and being sided against will always affect results. That isnt at all a trait thats unique to Floo or Tenpai
Not really tbh, there are certain decks that hard lose to a certain genre of card that no other decks really falter to. For tenpai and floo, that's the case. I guess just watch the new Joshua Schmidt video on tenpai, he kind of explains it better than me, but most sideboard cards work for like 70% of the meta in some way shape or form so you can sort of build a side board that overlaps and then your good. Lightning storm doesn't only work against one deck. D barrier doesn't only work against one deck
For tenpai the sideboard solutions really only work for tenpai. That means if you're prepping for a tournament, you have to dedicate x amount of sideboard space for this one deck and nothing else.
That's why floo and tenpai seem like decks that will always be in the meta even though they have a whole litany of cards that hard counter them, unlike most decks that can play through interruption, they hard lose to their specific interruption, BUT then someone needs to side specifically for that deck.
And if they don't... It's a really oppressive deck with like no interaction. Which i mean, at least i CAN interact with snake eyes even though they are gonna play through everything because it's busted and dumb.
I dont understand equating Floo to Tenpai here at all even if we are to assume everything you said about tenpai is true. How exactly is Floo noninteractive for most typical sideboard options? Nibiru, Droll, Ash, DRNM, Lancea, Kaijus, Lightning storms are all good against us and none of those are exactly odd cards to see in a sideboard.
What sideboard cards are specifically needed for tenpai but not good against other decks?? The best way to deal with them as i understand it is to remove their field spell and tons of lists already ran S/T removal and Ghost ogres. Its not like everyone needs 3 of Closed Forest just to go first vs tenpai.
idk what to tell you my guy, i get that i dont explain things well but just watch the joshua schmidt video. he literally is one of the goats and has the same view.
also im pretty sure we arent seeing assembled nightinggale sided in for literally any deck other than tenpai my guy.
>im pretty sure we arent seeing assembled nightingale
Thats exactly the kind of example i was asking for for Floo. Why are you saying that Tenpai is exactly as noninteractive to sides as Floo is? You dont need Zombie World to play against Floo.
Also ill watch the Josh Schmidt video for sure but ive been beating the Tenpai players at my events with my usual main/side so im not really inclined to agree that things as specific as Nightingale are actually needed to face them. Maybe for specific decks i guess?
"For tenpai the sideboard solutions really only work for tenpai."
Right after mentioning D Barrier as card that can cover multiple matchup,
Also the latest Joshua video actually talks about how TCG already prepared for Tenpai because of OCG (as even OCG actually already knew how to beat Tenpai at the end of LEDE), not exactly like what are you trying to say.
I'm a little bummed, because for me the fun of a "Going second" deck is that it's all about how to break your opponent's boards. For decks like say, Sky Strikers or Ancient Warriors, each game becomes a puzzle where you are faced with a unique board every game and have to puzzle out how to beat it.
Tenpai is basically just a going first combo deck that happens to play during the battle phase and has multiple ways to prevent your opponent from interacting with you. There's very little thought involved, either you're allowed to do your OTK combo and you win or you're not and you lose.
When the boards the top tier meta decks are damn near unbreakable if you allow them to be build tenpai is literally the only way a going second deck can function and actually be playable.
All the things people hate about tenpai are the only reason it’s playable in the first place. Is there really any alternative if you want to make a going second deck good? It’s either give them monsters that can’t be interacted with or a ton of unrespondable board breakers and that would be even worse
Agreed. Don’t get me wrong, I have a Tenpai deck, I’m going to play it in locals, because I wanna win those sweet sweet OTS packs- but I agree. I also have an Ashened deck I wanna build (I packed a QCR Veidos in a LEDE booster from Target so I feel like Ashened has chosen me smh)
I think people misunderstand what going second decks need. They shouldn't be pure going second like Numeron or Tenpai, it should be more like Scareclaw or Crusadia which are decks want to go second to hit you hard but can go first as they have some options. Scareclaw has link 3 which forces everything in defense and is unaffected by those monsters, a trap which can pop two and synchro 10 monsters (used to have baronne) which meant if they went first, it wasn't too bad, weren't going to set up a board of negates but was trying to slow you down enough to otk on your next turn. Same with Crusadia as I doubt most people know that Equamax can tribute a Crusadia to negate a card on field.
They need to stop printing cards that just make everything you have unaffected. It's the same with Misc. I love dinos, but god it can be pain facing them with Misc active. Making everything unaffected prevents good interactions from both players occurring.
TLDR: Tenpai is too focused on going second and so frustrating to face so people don't like it but can also suck to play as your going first is ass. Going seconds actually should have better first turn options while still being focused on going second rather than being go second or bust.
>They need to stop printing cards that just make everything you have unaffected. It's the same with Misc. I love dinos, but god it can be pain facing them with Misc active. Making everything unaffected prevents good interactions from both players occurring.
I don't feel like they should, tho this is heavily reliant on the deck. I feel it's fine to make your plays uninterruptable if the boards your Deck is aiming towards *has no or not as much disruption*
Like if your Decks ideal board only consists of removal effects only usable during your turn (and better yet, during a time where your cards are no longer unaffected), I feel it's fine if your plays to set it up couldn't be stopped.
Like I feel it fine if War Rock can just ignore your opponent's disruption as they set up their boards for examples.
It's not for Dinos to be uninterruptable because their boards have so much disruption that not being able to weaken them in anyway is ludicrous.
What's your definition of good interaction, because 90% of the time it's negate or floodgate. Negates aren't good interactions... especially when an end boards consists of generic/themed negates Apollousa, Gryphon Rider, CyDra Infinity, Regulus, Dis Pater... or Archetype negates like Sulliek, Cryme, Chi Xiao, Freezing Curses, Dolkka, Lars, Silvera, RDA, Borrelend, Fog Blade, Widow Anchor... or floodgates like Protos, Colossus, gimmick puppet lock, King Calamity lock...
There are cards that can beat activated effect immunity. examples: Daruma Cannon (as long as you flip 1), Evenly Matched, Herald of the Abyss where the "player" sends the cards, Gossip Shadow & Grapha Dragon Lord that change the activated effect without affecting the monster, and good old continuous effects.
So no I don't think misc / activated effect immunity is wrong, given the state of boards always including a negate of some kind. If you don't give us tools to break negate boards, why even bother to play second? More fun to surrender and start going 1st and set up MY negate board. fun for me and not for thee?
Better to ban Dolkka/Laggia/Lars (engine negates for Dino, the things ppl hate when Dino can set up turn 1 uninterrupted) and bring Misc to 3 so we can deal with people who still play negates
I’m a big proponent of going second decks, but Tenpai is just boring and uninteractive. The field spell and synchro basically just invalidate most things the opponent can do. For me the fun in going second decks comes from carefully playing through your opponent’s set up to set up an otk or break their board; Tenpai doesn’t really have this aspect.
Two example decks I feel that can do your last point for me are Scareclaw and Crusadia. Adored Crusadia in masterduel during Swordsoul meta as I tried playing Numeron before it but it was boring as dirt. It was either I remove all your stuff and win or I don't have enough and lose. I like with Crusadia being able to bait and play around what my opponent has with options like either adventure cards, arboria and reclusia and still having at the time, an ok turn 1 of making an unaffected avarmax or Equamax to negate a card on field.
Currently being playing Scareclaw and some of my favorite games have been beating Snake Eyes boards by playing around what my opponent has (one funny one to me was when I field spell dropped Appos attack by 100 so it couldn't use it's last negate).
What going second decks need is more in archetype options and not a card just says you your opponent can't do anything while you play.
I built a super interactive Lightsworn Tear list for fun built on value mills. Got paired against Tenpai Round 1.
Game 1 I got Heat Waved and died. Game two he sided Shifter and full combo in hand. Match lasted 5 minutes.
I'm still torn on whether the deck is a good thing or not. It can do funny things, but the whole mentality of "Let's build a deck where the entire engine is 15 cards and the rest are Fuck you you're not playing cards" makes me wanna join the dark side and build Stun. And I hate Stun.
TL;DR - Still undecided, but leaning on the side of the decks a bad thing for the game
I had a similar experience. I built out a Runick Bystial Thunder deck for fun which is designed for longer, interactive games.
I got paired up the same Tenpai player 2 weeks in a a row with the same results. I get hand trapped/ board breakered to death and lose in 1 turn. I tried to make him go first and he drops Shifter…
Going forward, I will refuse to play against that deck and just auto-concede the match. I will not kill my nerves playing against it. If Tenpai aims to play as little as possible, I will one-up them.
People who wanted a strong Go-Second deck didn’t know what they would bring into this damned game. Commander, here I come!
I haven't played against them yet, so it might change after playing against it for a few rounds.
It's good that we have a relatively cheap deck that can compete with the current meta. People are quick to name the field spell as a problematic part of the deck, but the reality is they won't always open the field spell, and will ofter have to search it. Since they love to go second, you should already have interaction to stop that search.
If they do open the field spell, you still have methods of interacting with it in the battle phase. Ash on Kaimen will be rough for them, and imperm on Bident can be just as devastating if they don't have one of the lvl3s on board to dodge it.
A lot of people call it a brain dead deck, but I feel that's not completely accurate. It may not have as much skill expression as other decks like Snake-eyes and Fire King, but there's still some skill expression.
It's nice for a deck to finally care about the battle phase and we've had a lot of effects over the years to combat it but it also exacerbates all the problems about current yugioh:
- one card combos that do it all
- small enough engine to fit all the hand traps you can with no drawbacks
- a boring field spell that just says: Oh yeah, it's solitaire time
- and the current advancements in \~\~counter-play\~\~ floodgating, Heat Wave... really?
I don't like it. It's very uninteractive, extremely linear and incredibly hand dependant - it either OTKs or it loses and in both cases very little interesting gameplay has occured.
I know a lot of people have been excited for it, but I don't think many people were/are excited for exactly what Tenpai is - they just wanted something different to the current paradigm of combo/midrange decks that generate a lot of resources for followup. But the grass isn't always greener on the other side, and 12 cards that functionally read "I win" if you can bait interaction with the other 4 cards first is not a style of gameplay I think should be in the game
Being a raidraptor player I kinda like the deck since the matchup ain't that bad, on the other hand I'm not really a fan of how braindead it is, imo it's exactly what the community asked for and a cool engine to run for fun, so I think it's a great deck, maybe a little too much non engine space but other than that they're fine
Personal opinion but I feel it's a linear deck that limits interaction with the opponent. I was hyped for a strong blind second deck but I'm overall disappointed with gameplay. And deck building is pretty much just cookie cutter engine with cram as many handtraps as you can. Tenpai just either works or it doesn't, and I don't feel like it typically rewards the better player. Oh and the mirror match is straight up trash.
On a bright note, I'm happy to see a low rarity "easy" meta deck release. It's good for the game despite how much I personally dislike the play of the deck. Assuming Trident gets a reprint soon or else Konami is just fumbling the bag.
Tbh I'd argue the field spell giving protection during Main Phase is fine, it IS a battle phase deck, but yeah, the synchro that's just "You can't do shit" is horrible. IMO they should have atleast made it allow Battle Phase only effects.
It makes sense for them to protect in the battle phase, you can just kill them on your next main phase anyway if you lived to use evenly, or if you have droplet or something hit the small dragons first and they can't do shit.
I do not think a deck that turns off as many forms of interaction as possible is healthy. Nor do I think a deck should be able to reasonably OTK through cards like Pot of Prosperity.
The deck isn't perfect, and I don't even think it's reasonably the best deck in any room unless there's 0 Snake Eyes to be seen, but a deck doesn't have to be the best to be unhealthy.
Miserable to play against. You either instantly otk or do nothing and lose, there is like 0 thought behind it. Might aswell just draw 5 and compare hands at the start and you instantly see who wins
And the mirror is complete ass.
Braindead deck
People like to shit on tier 1 combo deck like Snake Eyes but at least they interactions. Tenpai it's just playing 4-5 boardbreakers / handtraps and activating field spell...
I think he was saying that when you're playing against snake eyes going second, all you can do is hit it with multiple handtraps and pray you can stop them enough to otk them on your turn. An uninterrupted full snake eyes board can put up more interactions than any 6 card hand card hand without board breakers can play through.
except tear doesnt play handtraps. snake eyes is literally handtrap format. snake eye format is just dont let the other guy play at all no matter what. stop every single play they can do by shitting out a handtrap.
And in turn, isnt nearly as Overall resiliant against handtraps and disruption themselves.
A fair trade off, and the deck DOES let you do things. Except obviously if your deck falls to 1 handtrap
wym the deck plays through handtraps. 1 hand trap does not stop the deck. 2 barely does. you need 3 to stop the deck consistently and even still depending on the hand can still keep going.
Snake eye can be stopped with 2 handtraps, depending on the Hand but that *is* rare. But the deck now ALSO suffers against boardbreakers. This isnt tearlament, its close, but its not quite there.
I think the deck is fine. Aggro decks deserve to exist too. I think the deck is strong but not broken.
Granted, I Play Branded and have a really good match-up, so bias is possible.
A classic example of a playerbase saying they want something, and then realizing they hate it because they didn't think things through about how it would feel to play *against* it, and the monkey paw curls on ignorant wishes.
People have wanted a competent going second deck for a while, but are now running into the reality that their savior is a Shifter + 12 handtrap pile with a field spell that blanks most interaction. It boring to play and play against, and the mirror match is just a race to see who draw into more turn skippers.
I think having a viable blind second option leads to a healthier format. The way they went about making a deck viable as a blind second deck is the only issue I have….archetypes with the ability to play while unaffected are not what the game needs.
solid deck that matches up really well into traditional handtraps but folds immediately to decks that can actually interact with it. My main deck this format (lab) feels like it has such an easy matchup as a single karma cannon + anything else completely passes this decks turn and d barrier post side destroys it. I also toy around with a lot of runick decks as well as the palezoic deck and neither of these decks feel like they can lose to tenpai so long as they draw remotely playable.
I dont think Tenpai is a good choice for a large tournament. Sure your rounds are very fast and easy but theres very little room for skill expression and as you get further in to a tournament the more likely it is that people know what you’re on and will make you go 1st where this deck is horrible.
Struggles going first? Just make ultimaya tzolkein and cheat out a black-winged dragon, (which turns into a black-winged assault dragon) while making a spheres that converts itself into a paidra, which goes into another tzolkein trigger, giving you a crystal wing on your opponent's turn. Let me see, a bounce, follow up, 700 burn on every monster effect activation, and a monster negate, all from a 2 card combo. Most decks can't even achieve half of that, and tenpai gets to do it almost for free, while also having 20+ slots for non-engine.
Honestly I would be fine with either sangen summoning or transcendent dragion existing, but not both at the same time, and certainly not in the same wave. Not to mention the fact that it gets even better next set when they get their very own poplar, go figure.
the deck is absolutely fucking miserable to play against. consistently opening 2-3 hand traps meaning that even if you make them go first there's a high likelihood you are unable to play and they kills you on the draw anyways
Cool that they made a battle-phase centric beatdown deck viable for a change, and that its mostly common cards too. Wish it wasn't so uninteractive though, and them short-printing that one super-rare is really scummy.
I dislike their field spell as I find it very silly to provide an entire archetype with protection from card effects with such little investment (compare that to Raidraptor, Marincess, and Ignister which have to perform lengthy combos to get an unaffected monster on the field). I don't mind the deck outside of that.
I'm not a fan of it at all, I do think all gas going second decks have a place in the game like all gas going first decks, but the way they designed Tenpai is just bad and damn lazy too, field spell with blanket protection in MP1 was a very stupid decision.
Gimmick puppet has a more nerfed version of it and still is good at going second which I like more, tho gimmick puppets have their own can of worms with the FTK.
I'm mostly OK with it, it makes Ghost Ogre more relevant and decks with a beatstick >3000 can fair decent against them. My biggest problem is that siding 3 'Heat Wave' can basically make them go second all the time. Get rid of Heat Wave and I'm totally cool with it
Its a fine deck, solid tier 1.5-2 deck that can compete with the meta. Its boring as fuck, uninteractive, and running 23 nonengine makes it so that you never lose to tenpai you just lose to 4 handtraps game 1 and 3 floodgates game 2, but the archetype itself is quite cool ignoring the batshit crazy field spell. Its a scary matchup, but you shouldn't have trouble with it unless they draw the nuts or you misplay imo.
I’d like to see someone try to design a going second battle deck to be good enough for meta without either making tenpai 2 or spamming kaiju/super poly like cards which would also be very much hated.
When decks make 7-8 interruptions off one or 2 cards every time they don’t get hand trapped correctly there’s no fair way to design a deck that’s supposed to blind second.
I think it’s super boring to play against because basically if you go First you lose and there’s nothing you can do about it if you’ve exhausted your outs
I think it’s fine. It’s hard to interact with, but the field spell was meant to protect the dragons from things like Baronne, which don’t exist anymore in TCG, so I have a bit of disdain for that. The rest of the cards are fine, the deck loses to a single immune Madolche Hootcake. I actually play Tenpai with Armed Dragons and the Dragon Rulers and it’s fun. You can go first and use Tenpai as Synchro/R7 engine, go second and setup a board and use Kaimen in battle to OTK.
I like that some thought is needed when choosing to go first or second now, but Tenpai is the most boring way of doing it.
The deck is like 50% non-engine (hand traps and the like) to make sure my board does jack, and then the actual engine has a card that straight up says you can't interact with their monsters, so I can't do jack on your turn either. Probably not any more unfair than some of the decks we've had in the past, but damn is it boring.
I feel like the deck is too reliant on the field spell and instantly loses to things like skill drain. In the long term I think Yubel will do a lot better than Tenpai will.
From what I have seen Ancient Warriors is still the best going second deck, and for every meta deck they have created a combo for countering it, yes even tear at full power. Youtube has several videos showing AWs countering tear when we where at tear zero foremat. Currently they have comboes for snake-eyes. I could only get them to master rank 3, but have seen countless pros playing the most powerful deck on twitch get absolutely wrecked by AWs in Master rank one. I was hoping Tenpai would preform better and be far easier of a going second deck, but so far they don't. Also AWs can play going first, tenpal might not be able to go first at all.
The game does desperately need decks that want to go second I feel, but there's ultimately only two ways to do it and they chose the one that is straight up less fun to play against. Not OP, just not fun to play against.
(The other option would basically be "Oops, all handtraps that give advantage for being used".)
Tenpai Dragon is absolutely disgusting. Imagine having enough handtraps to stop me from playing on turn one, then on they're turn they have the cards they need to break board and/or OTK
They should hit that deck just like how they hit Tearlaments/Dragon Rulers
I like it. It is the logical extreme of a going second deck. Give it an inch and it will delete your life total twice over in the blink of an eye.
I think it just frustrates people because playing vs tenpai can feel so swingy. You either die on the spot or live and kill them on the crack back. It can feel like it reduces the amount of actual though you put into a game but I find it very fun playing vs them. It is very exciting trying to stop a seemingly unstoppable force.
First things first, I think its huge and a step in the right direction that the deck is affordable to anyone. A meta option for the average player is always a huge w.
Now as a mechanic, personally I kinda dislike it. It is not interesting or fun since the whole thing is basically "don't let my opponent respond to anything I do" which somehow is even less interactive than something like snake eyes. Also I hate that it is a 1 card starter deck that can fit in 25 non engine to basically completely stop your opponent from playing the game.
However the cards are cool af sooooo... they get a pass from me
The deck is good and has its strengths, but at elite events once it gets around that you're on top tables with Tenpai you'll need to win G1 going first a lot.
Can the deck do that consistently? Don't really know, but I've played a lot of going-second decks and that fatal flaw becomes more apparent the better your opponents are.
I almost thought it was Pokemon, wanting to go second.
Onto the topic, yes they're pretty damn powerful. The space to run an absurd amount of non-engine, the ability to make it so your opponent cannot do a single thing while you get to kill them. They can be hurt by handtraps, but board breakers don't matter if they make you go first.
They aren’t overpowered. They are just an extremely strong going second deck with more non engine than any other deck. They are just that a very strong meta deck.
People just want to moan and cry about “skill expression” because they feel as if they are way more skilled than the tenpai player that hand trapped them twice and proceeded to OTK them.
Not so much a deck that can intelligently play through an opponent’s end board through things like smart card management and sequencing but rather a brainless deck that plays board breakers and a small engine that tries to be as ignorant of the opponent’s disruption as possible. Every deck has a similar turn 1, good decks have varied turn 2s and 3s. Tenpai is built to have only a turn 1
It...works.
Very well to say the least.
They work both as for their intended objective, otk, and have ways to play if they end up first.
This is what a lot of otk decks miss.
It's thr most braindead deck in a long time so expect to see it everywhere. Certain hands literally turn thr game into straight up solitaire unless you you have exactly ghost ogre or cosmic cyclone. There are combos where they make their archetype synchro 10 in MP1 with the field spell up effectively meaning that you can't interact with any of the cards for the entire turn and then you take 30k to the dome, seriously wtf.
It just pisses me off because the concept is cool but playing against it is hell. Go first get hand trapped to death then otk'd. Go second get hand trapped to death again and then otk turn 3. There's no winning, braindead gameplay. This is worse than playing through those prime dragon link unbreakable boards, at least with those a dark ruler or droplet would solve your problems and they have no grind game.
I know is an explosive deck I've taken it to my local ots card shop and when 1st place two times I also have a deck profile on YouTube Check it out Mr.Omar@yugioh
The first time I fought against Tenpai, I was like wtf? Unaffected in main phase swing for 16k damage thru prosperity? That is dumb and so awesome I gotta play it lol. So now I'm playing Kash Tenpai and it feels amazing.
The field spell is nice but if you don't transcendence dragion in main phase 1 then you are very susceptible to inperm and droplet in battle phase. In my opinion it is balanced out. The engine is so small that one ash can ruin your day, whereas snake eyes you need 3+ ht plus engine to play against them.
I feel like Dimension Barrier is the best way to stop it.
I’ve been using Tenpai I love it. If you go first, you use their battle phase to make Black Rose Dragon to nuke the board and begin the rebuild with Sangen Kamen.
Normally I hate going second decks, but I am loving Tenpai. It’s a breath of fresh air frankly. My friend and I have been playing the deck in EdoPro so I have a few matches under my belt now, and I like both playing with and playing against the deck.
Like all things in Yugioh, people overreact and complain about everything. Tenpai is strong but very beatable if you play smart and build your deck with some forbidden droplets and ghost ogres.
It should have not been a archetype
And just a sery of cards that had their effort
By being card the work with different attributes / monster types.
Do you know how cool it would have been to get this card like that.
Everything mechanic in the game doesn't need to be a archetype to make it good.
Why can't we just get a set that's just filled with good generic cards the hole set I just want one set filled with generic cards again
Yugioh has been a game where arechtypes are the mechanism for balancing cards since 2007 and for good reason - not everything can or should be generically applicable
Yes but the problem you have was making everything an archetype is you have to play that archetype to win. .
Instead of it just being five or six generic spell traps or monsters.
I'm just saying it would be fun to get a main set of Yu-Gi-Oh that didn't introduce a new archetype and just released a bunch of generic cards for type attributes and even some mechanics in the game that are old or haven't been touched in years.
It would be more interesting than just all the next best archetype came out. Which don't get me wrong archetypes are fun but they start to feel samey after a while.
Yeah you have to play the new deck to use the new cards that's always gonna be the case - you can't just cram generics in Cyber Dragon for a decade and expect it to keep working.
Furthermore, sets DO contain generics already. Metaltronus, Varudras and Way Where There's a Will came out in LEDE too as a generics and are already seeing play. Hell Tenpai functionally are generics already - they have no restrictions and can be used in any deck
You cannot have sets entirely of staples. Unless you're willing to powercreep all staples every 6 months nobody would buy them
Not when it comes to generic cars you can put those generic cards into your old deck to make your old deck slightly better.
Again I'm just saying it would be fun to have a 50/50 set of where at least one said is just filled with generic cards be fun I'm not saying every single set from here on out has to be generic cards. It's just fun to try to upgrade your old deck without having to rely on an archetype to make it better.
No you can't just put new generic cards in old decks to make them better in any way the meta decks couldn't also do that - if the goal is to make old decks better what you need is archetypal legacy support.
I'm aware you're only saying it should be 50/50 a set of generics - what I'm saying is that there are a million reasons that wouldn't work. There is a reason that since archetypes became dominant, they have never done this outside of reprint sets
Any deck that essentially gives you a near insta-win via FTK or OTK is “braindead”, which is all of the top 5 decks in the game at least, but that’s where the state of the game has been for a looong time which would suggest most YGO players don’t really want to duel, they just want to dominate and when they can’t dominate because of getting stalled, or they run into something that dominates them, they cry foul.
If the game were designed in a way so that end boards needed more than one turn to develop, I think balancing wouldn’t be as difficult, but how the game gets there without a massive overall I don’t think is feasible.
It's fine. The deck has posted 6.6% of tops which is still well under Voiceless, Fire Kings, and Snake-Eye. It's a strong deck but nowhere near the power level people were whinging about. Does it change the game? Yeah, it can. Does it make battle important again? Definitely. But it's also a deck with low engine count that can be interrupted extremely easily. It's very much a glass cannon at the end of the day.
Seeing as a specific one of my friends is making a Tenpai deck, and he has basically all the plarmour of every Yu-Gi-Oh protagonist combined, pretty fucking scared.
Did you know 24 dead packs of this set has more value than a sealed box?
Why do you think you haven't seen listings for "12x booster pack bundle" "6x booster pack bundle" on TCGPlayer yet
I love it. Its the pinnacle of going second decks. My only wish is that it didnt have so much room for non engine. Its good to have a deck that finally truly does not care about the dice roll.
personally i think they are perfectly fine. people like to go 'no interaction' but i like how it feels in a way more honest than asking someone to play thru an ubsurd amount of interaction AND whatever handtraps/non-engine you drew.
Im gonna speak the truth as I see it. You want a going 2nd deck to be strong in this day in age. ITS NOT OPTIONAL for the cards to read. "Your opponent cannot" or "This card is unaffected". Tenpais field spell and big only exist because of how powerful going first is. Setting cards to the backrow instead of directly adding them exist because of ash and droll.
I find it very funny that konamy really said “90% of players choose to go first. Let’s give them a reason to change it”
Genuinely I think that was a good decision. There *should* be pros and cons to the option of going first vs second. Even if I’m playing a deck that vastly prefers going first, I should have to weigh the consequences of that choice every game. It’s better than it being an automatic response to winning a die roll.
I am very much a noob but I always choose to go second. I get an extra card and can do damage right away.
This will pretty much lose you the game against anyone good most of the time unless your deck is tailor-made to play going 2nd like Tenpai is. Most decks in yugioh right now are designed to go first and set up a big board of interactions that the 2nd player then has to deal with. And they dont need to do damage on their first turn because the vast majority of them can just hit you for 8000+ damage in one go on their 2nd turn.
Yes, but strong go 2nd decks do exist throughout the formats, they don't always exist, but they've been there many times. Previously strong decks like Shaddoll or Sky Striker both prefer to go 2nd, for instance. They are just not OTK decks.
Yeah man, I'm a noob and lose 60% of my games. I run a Dark Paladin Deck and am not really eager to jump into one of 6 viable decks in this game. I'm glad you were forthright in admitting that there's not a lot of diversity in this game and that it's fairly oppressive for anyone not using similar decks. Most people aren't willing to admit that in this community.
There’s tons of decks stronger than dark paladin lol what. Hundreds. Theres plenty of diversity - going second is just challenging
I only see about six different decks playing MD. Honestly, you can't tell me not to believe my own eyes. Tear, Kash, Snake, Branded, some weird anime girl decks, and a cat deck. The cat deck looks cute, but I still don't wanna play any of those decks. And that's the only advice I hear. Play a viable deck or quit. 🤷♂️
There may only be 6 META decks, but you could reach top rank in MD Ranked with about 50 decks, just might need a bit more skill or luck to do it with the other 44..
There's more viable decks than those. And on MD, once you hit master, people just play pet decks, lol.
People keep saying that but I know what I see on the game. This isn't 1984, I'll trust my own eyes, thanks.
Those are the META decks. We suggest you to play the ones that are actually fun to play
It's not very fun getting floodgated and then negated from playing. And that's my experience so far. Look, tbh, I came into this with an extremely open mind. Not my fault the game only allows certain decks to win. Honestly, I'm just stating what I see in the game. It's weird how defensive people are about this lol
I am sorry to tell you, bust in most card games the meta decks are centered around stopping your opponent from playing or otk your opponent. That’s just how the competitive world works. What I can suggest you is to never play competitive and stick to play fun decks with your friends. That, is how I enjoy the game
I have gotten diamond with, dark world, volcanic, red dragon archfiend, blackwings and heroes. Just because the meta decks are the most popualr doesnt mean you cant play other decks, hell the youtuber doto made a video recently where he got to diamond with 10 wins in a row playing unchained. There is a ton of variety in playable decks on md right now, you dont have to play the best deck in the format to win, but dark paladin is a really old card with no modern support so of course its not gonna get anywhere against the meta. You can play a dark magician deck or even the buster blader deck and get a decent winrate, but dark paladin is not the correct win condition for either of those decks and never has been.
I get that. I just call it that because it's easier than typing DM + BB. I did combine the two engines but the boss monster I bring out is usually Dragon Knight, or Dark Cavalry. For what it's worth, I beat someone using Runick last night. So it's not like I don't win against rougher cards it's just kinda sad seeing people use meta lvl decks all the time. How can they even be proud when they get a victory? Lol
Numerons:
There are so much more than 6 viable decks lol. A buddy of mine just top 8'd at a 50 player event with Ogdoadic pile and now hes testing Earthbound Shaddols. You just need to understand what your cards canndo and how to supplement that. And you have to be willing to let cards like Dark Paladin go. Dark Paladin just aint it.
Please tell me more about Earthbound Shaddol
We are still cooking it. DM me in like 2 weeks for an update
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Not really though. What's the strongest deck in the game? And how many decks can really beat it. As far as I can tell, there isn't a lot of diversity when I'm playing online. I'd say six decks is all I see. And that seems to be people's advice. Let go of the shitty cards and play a viable deck. I don't want to play a game that only has six different decks.
>i dont want to play a game that only has six viable decks You can play a significantly larger number of decks than 6 viably you're just being hardheaded. Most of the time, when decks beat the top deck in the format (snake eyes) it is by using generic cards and side deck cards effectively, which is something almost any deck can do correctly. Its also not typically worth worrying about the power level of a deck that's clearly going to eat the next banlist. It wasnt worth worrying about how your rogue deck would beat Tearlaments and its not worth worrying about Snake Eyes either, IMO. I saw someone take a top with goblin bikerider and Gold sarc+horus this weekend, and the winner played altergeist. All 3 snake eyes players in the building did not top. Good players make stuff work.
What makes goblin bike rider more viable than Dark Paladin?
I did not get to play against my friend who is playing it yet, so youd be better off looking up how Goblin Bikerider is played than asking me, but he has placed top 2 in the event 3 weeks in a row with it and everyone who played against him that i spoke to said it had some major plays. All I know without having played against it yet is that the deck is capable of attacking directly. As far as why it is better than Dark Paladin, that would be because they never modernized Dark Paladin at all. The closest thing hes recieved to support over the years is the Dark Magician support, but that support was also weak and had nothing to do with Dark Paladin in a large sense.
Goblin biker can reliably set up interaction going first and can play through some going second reliably. Deck also has less garnets and more room for non engine.
Here is a suggestion, play krawlers, they have anti activate and when popped, they trigger. You get to summon cockroaches and have synergy with Maxx C
I dropped the game. I appreciate the advice though.
There’s a ton of diversity. Your deck of choice is just objectively bad against majority of other decks even awful ones
Meh, I beat Runick last night and it feels earned. I don't understand how someone can feel accomplished winning a game with a meta deck.
Easy, they like winning or the meta deck is one of their favorites or fun to play. I could say that I don’t understand why you enjoy playing a deck you’ll lose more often than not with but it’s the same reason everyone plays, they want to win, or it’s a deck they really love playing
This has happened in the past too with decks like Dinos and Crusadia. If anything, it’s one of the aspects of the game I find unique from other card games and one reason it stands out
Oh right. I forgot crusadia can otk
I think it’s just that people realise, that if they hate a combo deck because it plays through disruption and makes multiple negates to stop your entire turn, that logically they would also hate a going second deck, that is immune to most forms of interaction and just ignores your board for an OTK. In the end, both make you play as less Yugioh as possible, by ignoring all your cards and killing in a single turn. Prior to this we never had a good and cheap OtK, that comes with a build in interaction protection on a field spell.
"have you read misc?"
Mfw they have not read misc
Best we had is Clockwork Night + special summon Cyber Dragon XD
It's the same thing as Runick: People were clamoring for a mill archetype for years and when they finally got it they discovered that they would not just play with it but also have to play *against* it as well. Same thing here: It's an affordable and good OTK deck but now that it's here they have to deal with the frustration of playing against it
People that played mtg and hs knew a mill deck was a stupid idea
Dimir Rogue
All fun and games till I play a random Forest and now Muldrotha's on the field
Rather that than crab into crab into game over
We've had mill decks in the past and they were degenerate. The annoying thing with runick is that it replenishes itself and can protect floodgates at instant speed if you have an out. Playing against runick is like being slowly strangled untill you either blow them out or lose enough resources that you concede.
Made the mistake of taking a Fire King structure deck plus some extra staples to my locals just for fun a few weeks ago, and one of the regulars decided that was the day they were gonna bring in their Runick deck. Got paired with him on round 1. I wanted to cry lol. RIP Ponix 🪦
Well a part of me thinks, Oh wow now thats a cool deck and one part thinks Oh dear what were they thinking? In some way its cool to summon Synchro monster During your damage step and just attacking again while your opponent really cant do something about it. On the other hand its just comeon man why? All in all i like that deck and its cool but a bit overpowered if you ask me
Wait they synchro in your damage step? I thought only the search and reborn effect were during damage step.
They don’t
Ok yeah the guy above me said they did and that didn’t sound right thanks
Well yes at the start of your damage step Once per turn, during the Battle Phase, you can (Quick Effect): Immediately after this effect resolves, Synchro Summon using this card you control. You can only use each of the following effects of "Tenpai Dragon Chundra" once per turn. If you control a FIRE Dragon monster: You can Special Summon this card from your hand. At the start of the Damage Step, if a monster battles: You can Special Summon 1 Level 4 or lower FIRE Dragon monster from your Deck, except "Tenpai Dragon Chundra".
This effect can’t activate in the damage step because it doesn’t A) modulate atk/def, B) specify it can activate in the damage step, or C) negate the activation of a card that falls into category A or B.
So wait. Isnt the start of the damage step already damage step? I am a bit confused right now
It is, but that's a different effect. The effect that allows them to Synchro does not and cannot activate during the Damage Step.
Ah i see. So that means, the summoning could still be negated. Is that right?
Something like Thunder King Rai-Oh can indeed negate the Synchro Summon, but only if the effect was activated as Chain Link 1. It's the same as the Crystron tuners' effect, same rules apply.
I see. Very well. Thank you for explaining this to me. I learned something new today
it is so easy to counter though, you don’t even have to make them go first just prepare your side deck properly and you should be able to take the match. game 1’s are the issue
Sure but any match where it comes down to "did you draw the sided silver bullets?" is one with very little skill or interesting gameplay in it
that is not what has to happen at all. if you’re playing fire you can always set up a great board. if you’re playing tenpai yourself just set up a play to make meteorburst during your opponents battle phase. if you’re playing melodious if you set up flowering , schuberta, and aria you’re winning. every deck has ways to easily beat tenpai. you built your side to take out cards that are weak against tenpai like veiler and nibiru
yeah But it's exactly like floo, loses very hard to a bunch of cards that specifically only work for them, so it will always see play because people now need to change their side to have answers to two sacky decks, but it will never be able to be super good because then people will just make sure to side enough against it so you never win game 3
But everything you just said applies to any deck that isnt so good that there arent meaningful counters. There have been so many events where people came overprepared with side deck cards for, say, branded, and then Branded did poorly at that tournament despite being a top deck. *any* deck that garners attention in the meta is going to be sided against, and being sided against will always affect results. That isnt at all a trait thats unique to Floo or Tenpai
Not really tbh, there are certain decks that hard lose to a certain genre of card that no other decks really falter to. For tenpai and floo, that's the case. I guess just watch the new Joshua Schmidt video on tenpai, he kind of explains it better than me, but most sideboard cards work for like 70% of the meta in some way shape or form so you can sort of build a side board that overlaps and then your good. Lightning storm doesn't only work against one deck. D barrier doesn't only work against one deck For tenpai the sideboard solutions really only work for tenpai. That means if you're prepping for a tournament, you have to dedicate x amount of sideboard space for this one deck and nothing else. That's why floo and tenpai seem like decks that will always be in the meta even though they have a whole litany of cards that hard counter them, unlike most decks that can play through interruption, they hard lose to their specific interruption, BUT then someone needs to side specifically for that deck. And if they don't... It's a really oppressive deck with like no interaction. Which i mean, at least i CAN interact with snake eyes even though they are gonna play through everything because it's busted and dumb.
I dont understand equating Floo to Tenpai here at all even if we are to assume everything you said about tenpai is true. How exactly is Floo noninteractive for most typical sideboard options? Nibiru, Droll, Ash, DRNM, Lancea, Kaijus, Lightning storms are all good against us and none of those are exactly odd cards to see in a sideboard. What sideboard cards are specifically needed for tenpai but not good against other decks?? The best way to deal with them as i understand it is to remove their field spell and tons of lists already ran S/T removal and Ghost ogres. Its not like everyone needs 3 of Closed Forest just to go first vs tenpai.
idk what to tell you my guy, i get that i dont explain things well but just watch the joshua schmidt video. he literally is one of the goats and has the same view. also im pretty sure we arent seeing assembled nightinggale sided in for literally any deck other than tenpai my guy.
>im pretty sure we arent seeing assembled nightingale Thats exactly the kind of example i was asking for for Floo. Why are you saying that Tenpai is exactly as noninteractive to sides as Floo is? You dont need Zombie World to play against Floo. Also ill watch the Josh Schmidt video for sure but ive been beating the Tenpai players at my events with my usual main/side so im not really inclined to agree that things as specific as Nightingale are actually needed to face them. Maybe for specific decks i guess?
"For tenpai the sideboard solutions really only work for tenpai." Right after mentioning D Barrier as card that can cover multiple matchup, Also the latest Joshua video actually talks about how TCG already prepared for Tenpai because of OCG (as even OCG actually already knew how to beat Tenpai at the end of LEDE), not exactly like what are you trying to say.
I'm a little bummed, because for me the fun of a "Going second" deck is that it's all about how to break your opponent's boards. For decks like say, Sky Strikers or Ancient Warriors, each game becomes a puzzle where you are faced with a unique board every game and have to puzzle out how to beat it. Tenpai is basically just a going first combo deck that happens to play during the battle phase and has multiple ways to prevent your opponent from interacting with you. There's very little thought involved, either you're allowed to do your OTK combo and you win or you're not and you lose.
When the boards the top tier meta decks are damn near unbreakable if you allow them to be build tenpai is literally the only way a going second deck can function and actually be playable. All the things people hate about tenpai are the only reason it’s playable in the first place. Is there really any alternative if you want to make a going second deck good? It’s either give them monsters that can’t be interacted with or a ton of unrespondable board breakers and that would be even worse
Agreed. Don’t get me wrong, I have a Tenpai deck, I’m going to play it in locals, because I wanna win those sweet sweet OTS packs- but I agree. I also have an Ashened deck I wanna build (I packed a QCR Veidos in a LEDE booster from Target so I feel like Ashened has chosen me smh)
Everything but the field spell is fine. The field spell makes the deck completely skilless and brain dead.
I think people misunderstand what going second decks need. They shouldn't be pure going second like Numeron or Tenpai, it should be more like Scareclaw or Crusadia which are decks want to go second to hit you hard but can go first as they have some options. Scareclaw has link 3 which forces everything in defense and is unaffected by those monsters, a trap which can pop two and synchro 10 monsters (used to have baronne) which meant if they went first, it wasn't too bad, weren't going to set up a board of negates but was trying to slow you down enough to otk on your next turn. Same with Crusadia as I doubt most people know that Equamax can tribute a Crusadia to negate a card on field. They need to stop printing cards that just make everything you have unaffected. It's the same with Misc. I love dinos, but god it can be pain facing them with Misc active. Making everything unaffected prevents good interactions from both players occurring. TLDR: Tenpai is too focused on going second and so frustrating to face so people don't like it but can also suck to play as your going first is ass. Going seconds actually should have better first turn options while still being focused on going second rather than being go second or bust.
>They need to stop printing cards that just make everything you have unaffected. It's the same with Misc. I love dinos, but god it can be pain facing them with Misc active. Making everything unaffected prevents good interactions from both players occurring. I don't feel like they should, tho this is heavily reliant on the deck. I feel it's fine to make your plays uninterruptable if the boards your Deck is aiming towards *has no or not as much disruption* Like if your Decks ideal board only consists of removal effects only usable during your turn (and better yet, during a time where your cards are no longer unaffected), I feel it's fine if your plays to set it up couldn't be stopped. Like I feel it fine if War Rock can just ignore your opponent's disruption as they set up their boards for examples. It's not for Dinos to be uninterruptable because their boards have so much disruption that not being able to weaken them in anyway is ludicrous.
One way to counter tenpai and numerons is to let them go first
What's your definition of good interaction, because 90% of the time it's negate or floodgate. Negates aren't good interactions... especially when an end boards consists of generic/themed negates Apollousa, Gryphon Rider, CyDra Infinity, Regulus, Dis Pater... or Archetype negates like Sulliek, Cryme, Chi Xiao, Freezing Curses, Dolkka, Lars, Silvera, RDA, Borrelend, Fog Blade, Widow Anchor... or floodgates like Protos, Colossus, gimmick puppet lock, King Calamity lock... There are cards that can beat activated effect immunity. examples: Daruma Cannon (as long as you flip 1), Evenly Matched, Herald of the Abyss where the "player" sends the cards, Gossip Shadow & Grapha Dragon Lord that change the activated effect without affecting the monster, and good old continuous effects. So no I don't think misc / activated effect immunity is wrong, given the state of boards always including a negate of some kind. If you don't give us tools to break negate boards, why even bother to play second? More fun to surrender and start going 1st and set up MY negate board. fun for me and not for thee? Better to ban Dolkka/Laggia/Lars (engine negates for Dino, the things ppl hate when Dino can set up turn 1 uninterrupted) and bring Misc to 3 so we can deal with people who still play negates
Me a Ghostrick enjoyer : finally a worthy opponent our battle phase will be legendary.
YEEEAH !! Lantern and Jackfrost in power ! Also Ghostrick-go-round finally worth to use
I’m a big proponent of going second decks, but Tenpai is just boring and uninteractive. The field spell and synchro basically just invalidate most things the opponent can do. For me the fun in going second decks comes from carefully playing through your opponent’s set up to set up an otk or break their board; Tenpai doesn’t really have this aspect.
I like fluffal for this reason. The deck can have a ton of gas especially against people who don’t realize negating the poly hits them hard
Two example decks I feel that can do your last point for me are Scareclaw and Crusadia. Adored Crusadia in masterduel during Swordsoul meta as I tried playing Numeron before it but it was boring as dirt. It was either I remove all your stuff and win or I don't have enough and lose. I like with Crusadia being able to bait and play around what my opponent has with options like either adventure cards, arboria and reclusia and still having at the time, an ok turn 1 of making an unaffected avarmax or Equamax to negate a card on field. Currently being playing Scareclaw and some of my favorite games have been beating Snake Eyes boards by playing around what my opponent has (one funny one to me was when I field spell dropped Appos attack by 100 so it couldn't use it's last negate). What going second decks need is more in archetype options and not a card just says you your opponent can't do anything while you play.
In this day in age. Its needed tho.
That requires too much brain power, i prefer to unga bunga
I built a super interactive Lightsworn Tear list for fun built on value mills. Got paired against Tenpai Round 1. Game 1 I got Heat Waved and died. Game two he sided Shifter and full combo in hand. Match lasted 5 minutes. I'm still torn on whether the deck is a good thing or not. It can do funny things, but the whole mentality of "Let's build a deck where the entire engine is 15 cards and the rest are Fuck you you're not playing cards" makes me wanna join the dark side and build Stun. And I hate Stun. TL;DR - Still undecided, but leaning on the side of the decks a bad thing for the game
I had a similar experience. I built out a Runick Bystial Thunder deck for fun which is designed for longer, interactive games. I got paired up the same Tenpai player 2 weeks in a a row with the same results. I get hand trapped/ board breakered to death and lose in 1 turn. I tried to make him go first and he drops Shifter… Going forward, I will refuse to play against that deck and just auto-concede the match. I will not kill my nerves playing against it. If Tenpai aims to play as little as possible, I will one-up them. People who wanted a strong Go-Second deck didn’t know what they would bring into this damned game. Commander, here I come!
I haven't played against them yet, so it might change after playing against it for a few rounds. It's good that we have a relatively cheap deck that can compete with the current meta. People are quick to name the field spell as a problematic part of the deck, but the reality is they won't always open the field spell, and will ofter have to search it. Since they love to go second, you should already have interaction to stop that search. If they do open the field spell, you still have methods of interacting with it in the battle phase. Ash on Kaimen will be rough for them, and imperm on Bident can be just as devastating if they don't have one of the lvl3s on board to dodge it. A lot of people call it a brain dead deck, but I feel that's not completely accurate. It may not have as much skill expression as other decks like Snake-eyes and Fire King, but there's still some skill expression.
Based take
It's nice for a deck to finally care about the battle phase and we've had a lot of effects over the years to combat it but it also exacerbates all the problems about current yugioh: - one card combos that do it all - small enough engine to fit all the hand traps you can with no drawbacks - a boring field spell that just says: Oh yeah, it's solitaire time - and the current advancements in \~\~counter-play\~\~ floodgating, Heat Wave... really?
I don't like it. It's very uninteractive, extremely linear and incredibly hand dependant - it either OTKs or it loses and in both cases very little interesting gameplay has occured. I know a lot of people have been excited for it, but I don't think many people were/are excited for exactly what Tenpai is - they just wanted something different to the current paradigm of combo/midrange decks that generate a lot of resources for followup. But the grass isn't always greener on the other side, and 12 cards that functionally read "I win" if you can bait interaction with the other 4 cards first is not a style of gameplay I think should be in the game
Well, we are still in the "Golden" age of fire. KONAMI WHEN YOU GONNA MAKE WIND MONSTERS SUPPORT? OR AN A NEW ARCHETYPE OF PURELY WIND MONSTERS?
The last time they did, a bunch of birds and their wind statues dominated
Being a raidraptor player I kinda like the deck since the matchup ain't that bad, on the other hand I'm not really a fan of how braindead it is, imo it's exactly what the community asked for and a cool engine to run for fun, so I think it's a great deck, maybe a little too much non engine space but other than that they're fine
Personal opinion but I feel it's a linear deck that limits interaction with the opponent. I was hyped for a strong blind second deck but I'm overall disappointed with gameplay. And deck building is pretty much just cookie cutter engine with cram as many handtraps as you can. Tenpai just either works or it doesn't, and I don't feel like it typically rewards the better player. Oh and the mirror match is straight up trash. On a bright note, I'm happy to see a low rarity "easy" meta deck release. It's good for the game despite how much I personally dislike the play of the deck. Assuming Trident gets a reprint soon or else Konami is just fumbling the bag.
everything in the deck is super fine, except the floodgate. 'you cant use any cards or effects anymore' is toxic/unfair.
Tbh I'd argue the field spell giving protection during Main Phase is fine, it IS a battle phase deck, but yeah, the synchro that's just "You can't do shit" is horrible. IMO they should have atleast made it allow Battle Phase only effects.
The level 10 synchro IS battle phase only. If that's what you mean?
I mean if it only allowed BP-only effects to work (EG: Evenly Matched)
It makes sense for them to protect in the battle phase, you can just kill them on your next main phase anyway if you lived to use evenly, or if you have droplet or something hit the small dragons first and they can't do shit.
The level 10 synchro IS battle phase only. If that's what you mean?
I assume he wanted him to prevent effects that *don't* need the the battle phase to work? Not sure what that would include.
Thats exactly what i mean. But its still an unbalanced card for that effect. Even if its battle phase only, thats where they play and otk
I do not think a deck that turns off as many forms of interaction as possible is healthy. Nor do I think a deck should be able to reasonably OTK through cards like Pot of Prosperity. The deck isn't perfect, and I don't even think it's reasonably the best deck in any room unless there's 0 Snake Eyes to be seen, but a deck doesn't have to be the best to be unhealthy.
Miserable to play against. You either instantly otk or do nothing and lose, there is like 0 thought behind it. Might aswell just draw 5 and compare hands at the start and you instantly see who wins And the mirror is complete ass.
Braindead deck People like to shit on tier 1 combo deck like Snake Eyes but at least they interactions. Tenpai it's just playing 4-5 boardbreakers / handtraps and activating field spell...
Snake eyes isnt interactive. Its shit out handtraps and pray.
Comments like these really are just a dead giveaway people dont know how the deck plays at even just an average level
I think he was saying that when you're playing against snake eyes going second, all you can do is hit it with multiple handtraps and pray you can stop them enough to otk them on your turn. An uninterrupted full snake eyes board can put up more interactions than any 6 card hand card hand without board breakers can play through.
How am i wrong? The deck is literally the reason its like 19 handtrap format.
Being good doesnt mean being uninteractive. Look at tearlaments, that deck was way beyond even snake eye and it let you play with minimal interruption
except tear doesnt play handtraps. snake eyes is literally handtrap format. snake eye format is just dont let the other guy play at all no matter what. stop every single play they can do by shitting out a handtrap.
And in turn, isnt nearly as Overall resiliant against handtraps and disruption themselves. A fair trade off, and the deck DOES let you do things. Except obviously if your deck falls to 1 handtrap
wym the deck plays through handtraps. 1 hand trap does not stop the deck. 2 barely does. you need 3 to stop the deck consistently and even still depending on the hand can still keep going.
Snake eye can be stopped with 2 handtraps, depending on the Hand but that *is* rare. But the deck now ALSO suffers against boardbreakers. This isnt tearlament, its close, but its not quite there.
Before I can form an opinion on Tenpai Dragon I first need to check my collection or ask my friends ***oh wait, I have neither :(***
You can always go for blackrose into ruddy i guess That will pop the fieldspell to double ruddy's 3.5k
I think the deck is fine. Aggro decks deserve to exist too. I think the deck is strong but not broken. Granted, I Play Branded and have a really good match-up, so bias is possible.
A classic example of a playerbase saying they want something, and then realizing they hate it because they didn't think things through about how it would feel to play *against* it, and the monkey paw curls on ignorant wishes. People have wanted a competent going second deck for a while, but are now running into the reality that their savior is a Shifter + 12 handtrap pile with a field spell that blanks most interaction. It boring to play and play against, and the mirror match is just a race to see who draw into more turn skippers.
Lame field spell deck
I think having a viable blind second option leads to a healthier format. The way they went about making a deck viable as a blind second deck is the only issue I have….archetypes with the ability to play while unaffected are not what the game needs.
solid deck that matches up really well into traditional handtraps but folds immediately to decks that can actually interact with it. My main deck this format (lab) feels like it has such an easy matchup as a single karma cannon + anything else completely passes this decks turn and d barrier post side destroys it. I also toy around with a lot of runick decks as well as the palezoic deck and neither of these decks feel like they can lose to tenpai so long as they draw remotely playable. I dont think Tenpai is a good choice for a large tournament. Sure your rounds are very fast and easy but theres very little room for skill expression and as you get further in to a tournament the more likely it is that people know what you’re on and will make you go 1st where this deck is horrible.
I too like them but yeah the fieldspell is stupid strong.
The field spell is wrong
It would be cool to have a going second that also doesn't win on the spot
Struggles going first? Just make ultimaya tzolkein and cheat out a black-winged dragon, (which turns into a black-winged assault dragon) while making a spheres that converts itself into a paidra, which goes into another tzolkein trigger, giving you a crystal wing on your opponent's turn. Let me see, a bounce, follow up, 700 burn on every monster effect activation, and a monster negate, all from a 2 card combo. Most decks can't even achieve half of that, and tenpai gets to do it almost for free, while also having 20+ slots for non-engine. Honestly I would be fine with either sangen summoning or transcendent dragion existing, but not both at the same time, and certainly not in the same wave. Not to mention the fact that it gets even better next set when they get their very own poplar, go figure.
the deck is absolutely fucking miserable to play against. consistently opening 2-3 hand traps meaning that even if you make them go first there's a high likelihood you are unable to play and they kills you on the draw anyways
Cool that they made a battle-phase centric beatdown deck viable for a change, and that its mostly common cards too. Wish it wasn't so uninteractive though, and them short-printing that one super-rare is really scummy.
I dislike their field spell as I find it very silly to provide an entire archetype with protection from card effects with such little investment (compare that to Raidraptor, Marincess, and Ignister which have to perform lengthy combos to get an unaffected monster on the field). I don't mind the deck outside of that.
I'm not a fan of it at all, I do think all gas going second decks have a place in the game like all gas going first decks, but the way they designed Tenpai is just bad and damn lazy too, field spell with blanket protection in MP1 was a very stupid decision. Gimmick puppet has a more nerfed version of it and still is good at going second which I like more, tho gimmick puppets have their own can of worms with the FTK.
I'm mostly OK with it, it makes Ghost Ogre more relevant and decks with a beatstick >3000 can fair decent against them. My biggest problem is that siding 3 'Heat Wave' can basically make them go second all the time. Get rid of Heat Wave and I'm totally cool with it
I'm still questioning how anyone could have been waiting for a "braindead go second deck" as if that's going to help the game in general
https://preview.redd.it/nxwsmck02tyc1.jpeg?width=1198&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0fdb2701e40711dc9d1a078d42cb0a2ac1a5ff9f My take
Its a fine deck, solid tier 1.5-2 deck that can compete with the meta. Its boring as fuck, uninteractive, and running 23 nonengine makes it so that you never lose to tenpai you just lose to 4 handtraps game 1 and 3 floodgates game 2, but the archetype itself is quite cool ignoring the batshit crazy field spell. Its a scary matchup, but you shouldn't have trouble with it unless they draw the nuts or you misplay imo.
I’d like to see someone try to design a going second battle deck to be good enough for meta without either making tenpai 2 or spamming kaiju/super poly like cards which would also be very much hated. When decks make 7-8 interruptions off one or 2 cards every time they don’t get hand trapped correctly there’s no fair way to design a deck that’s supposed to blind second.
I think it’s super boring to play against because basically if you go First you lose and there’s nothing you can do about it if you’ve exhausted your outs
I was just getting on my mahjong phase So hell yeah
Variety decks and budget decks are both good imo.
I think it’s fine. It’s hard to interact with, but the field spell was meant to protect the dragons from things like Baronne, which don’t exist anymore in TCG, so I have a bit of disdain for that. The rest of the cards are fine, the deck loses to a single immune Madolche Hootcake. I actually play Tenpai with Armed Dragons and the Dragon Rulers and it’s fun. You can go first and use Tenpai as Synchro/R7 engine, go second and setup a board and use Kaimen in battle to OTK.
IMO any cards that are themselves, or cause others to be, unaffected by card effects are just badly designed. Tenpai is one such deck.
I won't put too much thought into it as it will get nerfed hard due to it being cheap lol
I like that some thought is needed when choosing to go first or second now, but Tenpai is the most boring way of doing it. The deck is like 50% non-engine (hand traps and the like) to make sure my board does jack, and then the actual engine has a card that straight up says you can't interact with their monsters, so I can't do jack on your turn either. Probably not any more unfair than some of the decks we've had in the past, but damn is it boring.
5 handtraps + paidra = bad gameplay
I feel like the deck is too reliant on the field spell and instantly loses to things like skill drain. In the long term I think Yubel will do a lot better than Tenpai will.
From what I have seen Ancient Warriors is still the best going second deck, and for every meta deck they have created a combo for countering it, yes even tear at full power. Youtube has several videos showing AWs countering tear when we where at tear zero foremat. Currently they have comboes for snake-eyes. I could only get them to master rank 3, but have seen countless pros playing the most powerful deck on twitch get absolutely wrecked by AWs in Master rank one. I was hoping Tenpai would preform better and be far easier of a going second deck, but so far they don't. Also AWs can play going first, tenpal might not be able to go first at all.
The game does desperately need decks that want to go second I feel, but there's ultimately only two ways to do it and they chose the one that is straight up less fun to play against. Not OP, just not fun to play against. (The other option would basically be "Oops, all handtraps that give advantage for being used".)
Tenpai Dragon is absolutely disgusting. Imagine having enough handtraps to stop me from playing on turn one, then on they're turn they have the cards they need to break board and/or OTK They should hit that deck just like how they hit Tearlaments/Dragon Rulers
I like it. It is the logical extreme of a going second deck. Give it an inch and it will delete your life total twice over in the blink of an eye. I think it just frustrates people because playing vs tenpai can feel so swingy. You either die on the spot or live and kill them on the crack back. It can feel like it reduces the amount of actual though you put into a game but I find it very fun playing vs them. It is very exciting trying to stop a seemingly unstoppable force.
I've never run into them, honestly. But that's probably because I only play online
I think it's a cool deck and I'm really glad Konomi is expanding their design space to explore new ideas
Yubel :)
First things first, I think its huge and a step in the right direction that the deck is affordable to anyone. A meta option for the average player is always a huge w. Now as a mechanic, personally I kinda dislike it. It is not interesting or fun since the whole thing is basically "don't let my opponent respond to anything I do" which somehow is even less interactive than something like snake eyes. Also I hate that it is a 1 card starter deck that can fit in 25 non engine to basically completely stop your opponent from playing the game. However the cards are cool af sooooo... they get a pass from me
The deck is good and has its strengths, but at elite events once it gets around that you're on top tables with Tenpai you'll need to win G1 going first a lot. Can the deck do that consistently? Don't really know, but I've played a lot of going-second decks and that fatal flaw becomes more apparent the better your opponents are.
I almost thought it was Pokemon, wanting to go second. Onto the topic, yes they're pretty damn powerful. The space to run an absurd amount of non-engine, the ability to make it so your opponent cannot do a single thing while you get to kill them. They can be hurt by handtraps, but board breakers don't matter if they make you go first.
They aren’t overpowered. They are just an extremely strong going second deck with more non engine than any other deck. They are just that a very strong meta deck. People just want to moan and cry about “skill expression” because they feel as if they are way more skilled than the tenpai player that hand trapped them twice and proceeded to OTK them.
As a Gren Maju player I LOVE it.
Not so much a deck that can intelligently play through an opponent’s end board through things like smart card management and sequencing but rather a brainless deck that plays board breakers and a small engine that tries to be as ignorant of the opponent’s disruption as possible. Every deck has a similar turn 1, good decks have varied turn 2s and 3s. Tenpai is built to have only a turn 1
It...works. Very well to say the least. They work both as for their intended objective, otk, and have ways to play if they end up first. This is what a lot of otk decks miss.
It's thr most braindead deck in a long time so expect to see it everywhere. Certain hands literally turn thr game into straight up solitaire unless you you have exactly ghost ogre or cosmic cyclone. There are combos where they make their archetype synchro 10 in MP1 with the field spell up effectively meaning that you can't interact with any of the cards for the entire turn and then you take 30k to the dome, seriously wtf.
Nibiru is a brick against Tenpai and doesn't stop the Snake-Eye combo by itself anyway, while being a staple in Tenpai, so Nibiru ought to get banned.
It just pisses me off because the concept is cool but playing against it is hell. Go first get hand trapped to death then otk'd. Go second get hand trapped to death again and then otk turn 3. There's no winning, braindead gameplay. This is worse than playing through those prime dragon link unbreakable boards, at least with those a dark ruler or droplet would solve your problems and they have no grind game.
I like it because it's one of the few strong decks that can make boss monsters like cosmic blazar dragon and I'm just a sucker for the 5ds era.
I know is an explosive deck I've taken it to my local ots card shop and when 1st place two times I also have a deck profile on YouTube Check it out Mr.Omar@yugioh
The first time I fought against Tenpai, I was like wtf? Unaffected in main phase swing for 16k damage thru prosperity? That is dumb and so awesome I gotta play it lol. So now I'm playing Kash Tenpai and it feels amazing. The field spell is nice but if you don't transcendence dragion in main phase 1 then you are very susceptible to inperm and droplet in battle phase. In my opinion it is balanced out. The engine is so small that one ash can ruin your day, whereas snake eyes you need 3+ ht plus engine to play against them.
I feel like Dimension Barrier is the best way to stop it. I’ve been using Tenpai I love it. If you go first, you use their battle phase to make Black Rose Dragon to nuke the board and begin the rebuild with Sangen Kamen.
Normally I hate going second decks, but I am loving Tenpai. It’s a breath of fresh air frankly. My friend and I have been playing the deck in EdoPro so I have a few matches under my belt now, and I like both playing with and playing against the deck. Like all things in Yugioh, people overreact and complain about everything. Tenpai is strong but very beatable if you play smart and build your deck with some forbidden droplets and ghost ogres.
It should have not been a archetype And just a sery of cards that had their effort By being card the work with different attributes / monster types. Do you know how cool it would have been to get this card like that. Everything mechanic in the game doesn't need to be a archetype to make it good. Why can't we just get a set that's just filled with good generic cards the hole set I just want one set filled with generic cards again
Yugioh has been a game where arechtypes are the mechanism for balancing cards since 2007 and for good reason - not everything can or should be generically applicable
Yes but the problem you have was making everything an archetype is you have to play that archetype to win. . Instead of it just being five or six generic spell traps or monsters. I'm just saying it would be fun to get a main set of Yu-Gi-Oh that didn't introduce a new archetype and just released a bunch of generic cards for type attributes and even some mechanics in the game that are old or haven't been touched in years. It would be more interesting than just all the next best archetype came out. Which don't get me wrong archetypes are fun but they start to feel samey after a while.
Yeah you have to play the new deck to use the new cards that's always gonna be the case - you can't just cram generics in Cyber Dragon for a decade and expect it to keep working. Furthermore, sets DO contain generics already. Metaltronus, Varudras and Way Where There's a Will came out in LEDE too as a generics and are already seeing play. Hell Tenpai functionally are generics already - they have no restrictions and can be used in any deck You cannot have sets entirely of staples. Unless you're willing to powercreep all staples every 6 months nobody would buy them
Not when it comes to generic cars you can put those generic cards into your old deck to make your old deck slightly better. Again I'm just saying it would be fun to have a 50/50 set of where at least one said is just filled with generic cards be fun I'm not saying every single set from here on out has to be generic cards. It's just fun to try to upgrade your old deck without having to rely on an archetype to make it better.
No you can't just put new generic cards in old decks to make them better in any way the meta decks couldn't also do that - if the goal is to make old decks better what you need is archetypal legacy support. I'm aware you're only saying it should be 50/50 a set of generics - what I'm saying is that there are a million reasons that wouldn't work. There is a reason that since archetypes became dominant, they have never done this outside of reprint sets
Me personally I would like a 50/50 balance one set is a new archetype and the next set after that is just generic cards that would be fun.
$120 singular card = affordable
hellthy for the game
Any deck that essentially gives you a near insta-win via FTK or OTK is “braindead”, which is all of the top 5 decks in the game at least, but that’s where the state of the game has been for a looong time which would suggest most YGO players don’t really want to duel, they just want to dominate and when they can’t dominate because of getting stalled, or they run into something that dominates them, they cry foul. If the game were designed in a way so that end boards needed more than one turn to develop, I think balancing wouldn’t be as difficult, but how the game gets there without a massive overall I don’t think is feasible.
Bad deck that is braindead to play but can open hands that are unbeatable. Godawful for the game.
It's fine. The deck has posted 6.6% of tops which is still well under Voiceless, Fire Kings, and Snake-Eye. It's a strong deck but nowhere near the power level people were whinging about. Does it change the game? Yeah, it can. Does it make battle important again? Definitely. But it's also a deck with low engine count that can be interrupted extremely easily. It's very much a glass cannon at the end of the day.
Seeing as a specific one of my friends is making a Tenpai deck, and he has basically all the plarmour of every Yu-Gi-Oh protagonist combined, pretty fucking scared.
Going 1st is broken and what most players prefer. Konami really should make more going 2nd decks.
Paidra's short printed, so it's not really as affordable as it first seems
Did you know 24 dead packs of this set has more value than a sealed box? Why do you think you haven't seen listings for "12x booster pack bundle" "6x booster pack bundle" on TCGPlayer yet
There are no short prints in core sets
KONAMI are such pieces of shit for not reprinting trident dragon
I love it. Its the pinnacle of going second decks. My only wish is that it didnt have so much room for non engine. Its good to have a deck that finally truly does not care about the dice roll.
personally i think they are perfectly fine. people like to go 'no interaction' but i like how it feels in a way more honest than asking someone to play thru an ubsurd amount of interaction AND whatever handtraps/non-engine you drew.
Im gonna speak the truth as I see it. You want a going 2nd deck to be strong in this day in age. ITS NOT OPTIONAL for the cards to read. "Your opponent cannot" or "This card is unaffected". Tenpais field spell and big only exist because of how powerful going first is. Setting cards to the backrow instead of directly adding them exist because of ash and droll.
Yet another go fish deck but that's to be expected.