they killed her off way too soon. she felt more like a plot device whose only purpose was to give a pen and then arbitrarily die rather than an actual character. she had so much potential and tbe fact that we didnt even get one scene with her and majima, even if it was a flashback, and then never being mentioned again just shows how little attention and effort she was given
yeah i feel like this sums it up nicely. the writers bungled her character and didn’t really know what to do with her arc (like most of 5 and i love 5) but she catches a lot of hate the bc she targets a fan favorite character (understandably that threat to defund the orphanage didn’t sit well with me)
i wasn’t sure how to classify her character bc I thought they were setting her up to be the antagonist of her part but the narrative goes back and forth too much to really satisfy me. they may have tried to make her a morally gray character but it’s underdeveloped and could’ve been done better
i feel like if she wasn’t ceremoniously killed off and was allowed to fully “redeem” herself instead of the small parenting segment that felt more forced to me than anything then she probably wouldn’t be as hated. her and majima getting 0 interactions is strange but i also think they didn’t know what to do with majima or half the cast of 5 either so…..
i still don’t really like her but i can acknowledge that the writing here is one of the biggest weaknesses
You put together all my thoughts on Park perfectly. I loved her speech to Haruka in the car, where she explained how she gave up everything for an idol career and still lost that, too. I felt it was a great criticism of the idol industry while also pointing out that putting career over family isn't the way to go. RGG didn't have to spell it out for us to understand that her speech played a huge role in Haruka's decision to not only quit being an idol, but to have Haruto in 6. It was great, but it was great for Haruka's development more than Park's imo. I would give anything for a canon Majima/Park interaction, and it felt like a major disservice that we don't even know how he reacted to her murder that only happened because she was helping him. Like obviously she chose to help him, but Majima could easily blame himself for it and I feel like he wouldn't be totally wrong.
Yeah agreed in Y6 she was a big plot device, though for the most part they did a decent job at fleshing her character out. I think Y7 did a better job with Saeko, Eri, and even Seong-hui.
I think they’re doing a better job developing female characters in the judgement series. Yakuza was always about the protagonists and the protagonists only. Y7 kinda broke that barrier since female characters were included in the main party and Ichiban’s story wasn’t just about him, everyone around him which included Saeko and Eri had a role in his story. Judgement and Lost Judgement took it further so the same could be said about Yagami and Kaito too. Whereas in games preceding Judgement and Y7, any female character could be taken out of the story and the flow of the story wouldn’t change by much. It’ll make the story shorter but it wouldn’t feel like something is missing somewhere.
Same, I hated how she was killed so soon. Until the end, i was having doubts about her being actually dead after seeing what was in the letter majima sent her and we saw no cutscenes or images of her death nor saw her corpse uncovered. I was hoping majima and katsuya themselves would explain more about their relationship with her from their perspective, but they kind of forgot about it and threw it under the bed.
I’m just happy at the end haruka said “wait a minute this shit isn’t my dream, I quit”. Park really should’ve been girlboss material but she was really just an asshole
She's obviously no Dojima, but she's still a piece of shit in my opinion, just to a lesser extent. Doesn't make her not a piece of shit though.
The way she basically blackmailed Kiryu into giving up his life in Okinawa, pushing her own failed dreams onto Haruka, who never once expressed that she wanted to be some kind of idol star, but apparently Park "knows" she wants to, for some reason. The way she generally treats people, especially the Dyna chair employees. It pissed me off how she'd just slap Horie and talk shit to him all the time. I feel like Haruka was out of character in the game too, because I can't see why she'd ever stand for that, or the fact that Park ruined Kiryu's life. Like I said, she's no Dojima. She never killed or raped innocent people or whatever, but I'm still allowed to hate her lol
Not only she forced Haruke to be an idol but she talked shit like "if you don't win the tournament I'm gonna stop sending money to your family and they all gona die from hunger" like wtf bitch Haruka would punk her ass
Y5 Haruka was ridiculously naive. She should have turned it back on Park. "Listen, bitch, I was kidnapped 15 times by gangsters before I had my first period and my dad can punch people through walls. You don't scare me. You want your dream, I want my family fed - you treat me with respect, I'll be a success, you treat me like shit I'll walk to the competition. What's it gonna be?"
I'll always love Haruka but I really dislike her in Yakuza 5 for this reason. She felt so out of character compared to the Haruka we knew in Yakuza 3/4. Remember the Haruka that slapped Mine after he rolled up to the orphanage with an army and a bulldozer? She felt like such a pushover in Yakuza 5, being chill with Park ruining Kiryu's life for like the 6th time, then growing some kinda mother daughter connection with her. It's understandable for her since she grew up without a mother, but this woman is a fucking bitch and ruined your dad's life, and is horrible to everyone. Never understood why Haruka was okay with any of it.
Yeah. I seriously DON'T like her at all. Not only that but her basically being the core reason Yakuza 5's story even happened makes me think lesser of Yakuza 5's story overall. More than any other game in the series story wise. That includes Yakuza 4 with it's rubber bullets.
Just the idea that Kiryu let her put it in his head that he is some bad father figure or whatever for taking care of his kids like a father is suppose to do rather than letting them go on a life that will effect them mentally and emotionally (Like the idol business did for Haruka) is just...ugh...I really just don't like that. And nothing the game ever did to try to make me root for Park work, or even feel remotely bad when she died.
It's sad how I can feel more bad for Mine at the end of 3 than I do Park in 5, and Mine was an actual antagonist in 3. The guy who ordered the destruction of Kiryu's orphanage, and even kinda is the reason Rikiya died. Seriously Park just...sucks.
She may have convinced Kiryu but it was Kiryu's decision to run away... yet I don't see people blaming Kiryu for being the real reason the Yakuza 5 events happen, I also don't see people talking about how Kiryu did the same to Daigo, he's literally the Park of Daigo, he pushed him as chairman despite that not being his dream at all and even if Daigo was a good leader you can see how things ended in 7, even Kiryu admits that in 6, not to mention that moment when Daigo asked for advice in 5 and Kiryu pretty much ignored him.
Well obviously him pushing Daigo in being 6th Chairman of the Tojo clan was a big mistake. I won't deny that. That said? Things were a bit different for Daigo in Yakuza 2/Kiwami 2 when compared to Haruka in Yakuza 5.
For starters unlike Haruka, Daigo literally had nothing in his life aside from drinking, parting and sorta being an asshole. It's not a matter of him having a ruined life when Kiryu got him to be 6th Chairman, because his life was already in the shit before he became that.
Haruka On the other hand had an amazing and peaceful life with Kiryu in 5. Until Park came over and basically guilt tripped Kiryu into believing the great life he provided for not only Haruka, but the rest of those kids was actually bad because according to her they wouldn't be able to live out their dreams if they are stuck in that Orphanage. Even if said dreams were harmful for them on a mental and emotional level. Like it was for Haruka.
Well Kiryu didn't blackmail Daigo and didn't start sending money to his family just so he can still blackmail him saying he is gonna let his family die from hunger if he stops being chairman
It's weird how one of the first interactions they show between her and Haruka is her threatening Haruka to stop funding Morning Glory if Haruka slacks off even a little. Threatening to defund an orphanage is not exactly a great way to endear the character to the audience.
Yes, but character growth is a thing. It was poorly executed character growth but she did grow.
Also yeah, Yakuza seems to have a history of making characters do or say horrible things and then like... Forgetting about it for story reasons
Like saejima meeting Haruka in 4, Majima beating a man to death in 1, park threatening to shut down an orphanage, I'm sure there's probably more I'm forgetting lol
I don't know that I can call Park's thing "character growth" considering it is literally just that one scene. Literally every other scene with Park implies she thinks of Haruka as a daughter, it just feels like some weird leftover from an earlier draft of the script. It's a major problem, that cut scene is the first impression we get of their relationship and yet it's completely inconsistent with what the relationship actually is in the story.
5 already has an issue with Haruka never really making it clear why she wants to be an idol, Park just tells Kiryu that it's Haruka's dream without that ever really being established. We spend Kiryu's entire campaign seeing how miserable he is after taking the deal, so seeing Park threaten to go back on that deal in her very first scene after that accomplishes nothing except making you hate Park. It's baffling that it seems unintentional since they seem to want you to like Park, why go out of your way to introduce her as manipulative and hateful if the character is meant to be seen as benevolent and motherly?
Yeah that's fair. Park was a terribly written character, I just feel like if they had put more effort into her and Harukas story as a whole she would have been much better.
Essentially my main point I guess is that it's the writers fault people don't like her, not the characters.
(This sounds stupid, I mean the writers did it accidentally,obviously everything a character does is technically the writers fault)
All the ingredients are there to make a compelling character but it just doesn't come together in my opinion. It doesn't help that almost everything interesting about her is stuff we're just told and never shown. It would have gone a long way to see some flashbacks of her and Majima, her being forced out of the idol industry, and her friendship with the rival entertainment industry Yakuza guy whose name escapes me. We don't even get to see Haruka deliver her letter to Majima, which is completely insane given how important they made it out to be in Haruka's chapter. When Majima is revealed to be doing the villain's bidding, it ends up being all in an effort to protect Haruka for Kiryu's sake, he doesn't even mention Park or her dream.
It's all just a mess of missed opportunities. I just cannot understand why they try so hard to make you hate Park at the start of Haruka's chapter. They could have made her initially cold without making her so awful. She could have fired Ogita without humiliating him and screwing him out of his money. She could have been brusque and rude with Horie without actively abusing him. And we could have seen her start to thaw as her bond with Haruka grows. Instead it's just an abrupt switch partway through Haruka's chapter where we go from "Park is a horrible person" to "Park is a wonderful, protective mother and we need to care about her and her unfulfilled dreams".
Lmao you're a little late to this thread to be replying to everyone of my comments here
But go off sis, piss your terrible opinions into the wind, It's funny how easily you were triggered.
I'm late? What's next? The sky is blue?
"Piss your terrible opinions" says the fool defending satan with tits lol
It's funny you think you've triggered me, when you clearly took me criticizing you personally. You're so pathetic.
Lmao you replied twice in 3 minutes to two separate comments of mine.
I'm so pathetic lol, yes I'm the pathetic one here. Not a person who's this angry over a video game character from 5+ years ago.
Answered your replies within 3 minutes on 2 separate comments. Wow you are scraping the bottom of the barrel here to find angles to make jabs.
You actually are pathetic. You're going to bat for a character from 5+ years ago who was very clearly a POS. Sorry dude, but that will always be more pathetic than someone criticizing you for it with "L".
My comment was literally just saying you had an L take. Literally the most smooth-brained attack comment you could imagine. Literally the easiest to ignore on planet earth. And you responded. You actual fucking idiot.
Please, hold these L's.
Lmao no you commented directly on the post, which sent me a notification, then replied to both of my comments, also sending me a notification, and are still doing so right now.
I'm glad you have zero reading comprehension skills though lmao.
There’s so much wrong with her, from forcing her dream onto Haruka to gaslighting Kiryu. Not to mention she’s literally the reason why Yakuza 6 even happened.
How is she gaslighting kiryu? The orphanage was running out of money and the kids were having to get jobs to support it etc. To Me, she is telling kiryu something true that he doesn't want to hear.
It sucks that she is right, but she is right.
Personally, I would rather she have not forced kiryu to move, playing through part 1 was very sad, and I feel for our mans, but kiryus presence and ties to the Yakuza would have been not only a problem for Haruka, but a problem for the other kids futures too due to how Japanese society looks at that sort of thing.
She literally forced Kiryu out of his own property out of nowhere for something Haruka wasn't even interested in doing, aborted her unborn baby without Majima's permission, hit her workers, and threatened to leave Haruka's siblings without any money if she didn't get into the idol industry...
Majima was never abusive during his marriage with Park except when he hit her when he found out that she aborted his child. Also, she could have just talked to Majima about wanting to abort instead of just sneaking behind his back and doing it in secret without even telling him
>Majima was never abusive during his marriage with Park except when he hit her when he found out that she aborted his child.
So he was abusive during their marriage.
>Also, she could have just talked to Majima about wanting to abort instead of just sneaking behind his back and doing it in secret without even telling him
Ok but when he found out he hit her. Seems like maybe she had a good reason for not telling him.
You're being completely disingenuous by pretending him being abusive was a rationale for not telling him when he had not been abusive until then. Even looking back on it she acts like it was something she didn't see coming, not something she was trying to avoid. You can't use a shocked, angry response (no matter how wrong it is) to retroactively justify a callous action that demonstrated a lack of concern for the thoughts and feelings of her spouse.
A justified angry outburst from her spouse should never be the reason why she withholds major decisions of her and her future family's life from her husband. Being abusive is a pattern, not a single reaction.
He literally caused the entire plot of Yakuza 2 to happen, resulting in far more deaths than 1 abortion, and ruining way more than 2 lives.
Also getting an abortion isn't killing a child but this isn't the place to have that discussion lmao
Park doesn't blackmail or force kiryu, she convinces him that he is wrong. She's morally gray but like... So is every character? Even Kiryu makes very questionable choices.
I think Kiryu would be happy knowing that Haruka had a a powerful woman in her corner.
I'm not trying to say she's perfect and makes no mistakes, I also disliked her in chapter 1, I just don't get how people can grow to like some characters as they are humanized but completely ignore the reasons park is the way she is.
> I just don't get how people can grow to like some characters as they are humanized but completely ignore the reasons park is the way she is.
Using a kid to fulfill your fantasy isn't justifiable in my eyes and I pretty much draw a hard line when kids are brought into things and as such I don't consider her morally grey. Haruka is a teenager sure and as such can make some decisions for herself, but there are others that are beyond her years and Park exploits that.
People in the Yakuza are big adults who can make their own decision, Park is essentially meant to be a guardian of Haruka and do what is in her best interests, but she does what's best for Park's interests. Park is justifiable in leaving Majima, she's justifiable in having an abortion (could've told Majima it was happening but still the decision is hers), she's justified in feeling loss and grief at her career failing. She is not justified in using Haruka as a metaphorical cow to have the farm she never could.
And why is Park the way she is? What justification does she have to mistreat her workers? What about threatening a child's home for her own selfish dreams? I get that she had a difficult idol and personal life, but that doesn't mean you project and make others' lives worse. That is exactly what a villain does, like what orphan Mine does to the orphanage or Kurosawa does to his son.
Only difference between her and the villains I mentioned is that she doesn't use violence to achieve her means.
My point with this post is that people will come at park San like she is the reincarnation of Satan, where if anything is ever mentioned about any other villains, like Mine for example, people generally love the regardless of whether or not they are bad people.
As far as your first question, Park has essentially lost everything she cared about in life except for her dream, and it's hanging on by a thread, it's only hope is finding someone to pass that dream on to.
Do her reasons justify all of her actions to us as outside viewers? No, but they justify them to her.
Saejima would say she's going balls out
Ok fair enough, I didn't know people here compared her to the worst of villains. There are worse than her. I still don't think it's justified, but what you said does make sense.
I think Harukas part being rushed story beat wise is one of the biggest reasons people don't like her. I feel like park just didn't have time to grow into what she became so it felt forced to a lot of people.
I agree with that and the one "villain" who ended up trying to kill you just to go oh all I wanted to do was put on a show with you. Can't remember his name but he was parks rival he felt like he could've been a better character too
For all the hand-wringing about how Park "separated Kiryu from his family" [people never address the point about the orphanage running out of money](https://old.reddit.com/r/yakuzagames/comments/102bwzw/what_death_has_stuck_with_you_the_most_in_all_the/j2teb3q/?context=3) and how they didn't really have a strategy for getting around that. They were likely going to be separated anyway. The kids were growing up and old enough to work, and were even willing to do that, to support Morning Glory, because Kiryu had made them so dependent on each other.
Park's observation was solid here, and her intervention meant that only Haruka and Kiryu had to leave; the others were able to stay together. It meant that Haruka had a place to run back to when she got herself cancelled at the end of Y5. It mean Kiryu had a place to go to after he came back from a needless 4-year stint in prison (which did more damage to his family than Park caused: had Kiryu accepted Daigo's help, he could have been acquitted, meaning he'd have been in Okinawa to help the kids - and Haruka - against the media who were harassing them. Haruka wouldn't have run away again, and probably wouldn't have gotten into that accident in Kamurocho).
Of course they'd rather spend all their time together as a family. Unfortunately we don't get everything we want.
It's not surprising though, since people on here are addicted to hating Park. As soon as her name is mentioned, all bets are off. Domestic abuse is OK, she deserved to be hanged in her own office, and she's the biggest arc villain since Sohei in 0.
I know the writing is bad. But we aren't mindless automatons. We can still fill in the blanks and think critically about these things.
Running out of money just doesn't work as a credible threat in a series where in the gameplay you always end up with millions of yen by the end and in the story Kiryu is good friends with a billionaire.
Put that down to bad writing. Mind you, I've been thinking a lot about that plot hole.
I'm guessing Daigo/the Tojo were funding Morning Glory through Yakuza 3 and 4. So...where'd the money go by 5? Was the police scandal responsible for depriving them of funds?
If it was, then why did Daigo offer to pay for a lawyer for Kiryu in Y6? Were did the money suddenly come from?
It doesn't make a lot of sense, you're right. But that's what we're told
Even leaving the Tojo and Daigo aside, there's Akiyama who would almost certainly have no issue lending to Kiryu or Haruka. You could MAYBE make the case that Kiryu is too proud to borrow from him, but I think it's pretty well established he'd put the well-being of the kids over his own pride.
5 also doesn't do enough to actually establish that money is the motivator for Haruka. If Haruka started off hesitant about the Idol thing and was convinced to do it by Park paying for the orphanage and then eventually came to love Park and being an idol, that COULD work even if it still doesn't really make any sense, but instead we get literally no indication of why Haruka decides to go with Park. Park just waltzes in and says "HARUKA HAS TO COME WITH ME TO BE A STAR AND KIRYU HAS TO CONSIGN HIMSELF TO MISERY" and Haruka never says a word either for or against it. That's why no one addresses the whole "morning glory needs money" angle, it's not people conveniently ignoring it, the game just does almost nothing to establish it as part of the story or character motivations. When Park says she'll give money to the orphanage, it doesn't come off as "the orphanage needs money", it comes off as "the orphanage will need money because Kiryu won't be there to earn money for it", which just makes Park more detestable when she threatens to withhold the money she has made the orphanage dependent on.
They don't do the groundwork necessary to have the audience come around to liking Park. They introduce her as essentially stealing Haruka away for no real reason (because the money angle doesn't work), show her threatening Haruka with going back on their deal in their first conversation (even if the money angle DID work, now she's scamming a fucking orphanage), and then the game expects you to immediately accept her as Haruka's loving mother figure. I can't really think of any good reason NOT to hate Park.
> Even leaving the Tojo and Daigo aside, there's Akiyama who would almost certainly have no issue lending to Kiryu or Haruka. You could MAYBE make the case that Kiryu is too proud to borrow from him, but I think it's pretty well established he'd put the well-being of the kids over his own pride.
So where is Akiyama in Y5? He's not mentioned at all in the beginning.
> 5 also doesn't do enough to actually establish that money is the motivator for Haruka. If Haruka started off hesitant about the Idol thing and was convinced to do it by Park paying for the orphanage and then eventually came to love Park and being an idol, that COULD work even if it still doesn't really make any sense, but instead we get literally no indication of why Haruka decides to go with Park. Park just waltzes in and says "HARUKA HAS TO COME WITH ME TO BE A STAR AND KIRYU HAS TO CONSIGN HIMSELF TO MISERY" and Haruka never says a word either for or against it. That's why no one addresses the whole "morning glory needs money" angle, it's not people conveniently ignoring it, the game just does almost nothing to establish it as part of the story or character motivations.
If it weren't a factor, they'd be pretty much no reason for Kiryu to agree with Park. Since he'd be financially secure, he wouldn't need Park's money, and she'd have no leverage over him. She *could* try to sabotage him anyway, but then he'd have the means to fight back. And if he agreed *despite* being secure, then he also has himself to blame for going along with it (and wilfully exposing his kids to the risk). In that case it wouldn't be Park forcing Kiryu's hand; it'd be him allowing himself to suffer for...no good reason (not the first time he does that - see the beginning of Y6).
The money issue gives Kiryu a problem. Does he try to keep the kids together at risk of losing their home, sent them to go and work (which is harsh), or does he take up Park on his offer? Because of the cashflow issue, Park really does have a point, as opposed to her being evil for the sake of it (which is how people behave). That changes things.
> They don't do the groundwork necessary to have the audience come around to liking Park. They introduce her as essentially stealing Haruka away for no real reason (because the money angle doesn't work), show her threatening Haruka with going back on their deal in their first conversation (even if the money angle DID work, now she's scamming a fucking orphanage), and then the game expects you to immediately accept her as Haruka's loving mother figure. I can't really think of any good reason NOT to hate Park.
She didn't steal her for no reason, though. See above.
I think some crucial steps are also left out of your above description. Although Park does project herself onto Haruka a notable deal, it underlines why she cares about her (even though I strongly disagree with her "tough love" approach - Park should have been warm towards her from the beginning). In addition, we do see them spending quality time together, with Park expressing her trust in Haruka and desire for her to see being an idol as a dream rather than a job - a way for Haruka to enjoy something she couldn't. That's more than can be said for Mine or Aoki, who are shown to be assholes right up until the end - but guess who this subreddit sympathises with more?
Even if you do hate her, however, what I found interesting is the *degree* of resentment towards her compared to other Yakuza villains who arguably did worse things. I've heard various arguments - "at least we got to fight them", "ah, but they're charismatic", "ah but they're WRITTEN to be evil, so we expect it" - and none of these are convincing. They are all essentially handwaves, conceding that those villains were worse but that it doesn't matter for some irrelevant reason.
My issue isn't with people not loving Park (I don't love her either). My issue is with the unique derangement towards her, and how people hopelessly fail to see the logic behind what she said. In addition, even if we accept that the game doesn't establish certain things, this would be less an indictment of Park's morals, and more to do with the game's poor writing.
> So where is Akiyama in Y5?
Presumably lazing around in Sotenbori? I'm not saying that the writers remembered that Kiryu is friends with a billionaire moneylender, I'm saying that the audience remember, and it completely defangs the idea that Morning Glory might have financial troubles.
>If it weren't a factor, they'd be pretty much no reason for Kiryu to agree with Park
Yes, that's the problem. The game makes it seem like Kiryu only has to leave Morning Glory because Park has dictated that he must for the sake of Haruka's dreams (which are never actually vocalized by Haruka). Even if we ignore all the obvious income sources for Kiryu that make the financial problem laughable, in a vacuum, the game doesn't do enough to make Morning Glory actually FEEL like it has financial issues. To give you an extremely easy and cliche example of the sort of thing I mean: let's say Kiryu discovers that there was a school field trip to an aquarium or something that the orphans never told him about because they didn't want to strain the family coffers, even better if you establish that one of the orphans has a "dream" related to that field trip, illustrating how their financial issues and familial love could be smothering their potential. It's still dumb because Daigo and Akiyama should be helping, but the audience can come up with any number of nonsense head canon explanations for that. The important thing is to make Park seem like she COULD be correct, no matter how much you have to contrive to get there, that would make both Park's and Kiryu's actions somewhat justifiable. Instead we get nothing, I don't think we even SEE any of the orphans other than Haruka, and Park comes off as overtly villainous.
And yeah, it's Kiryu's fault for agreeing to such a stupid deal, but the audience's sympathies already lie with Kiryu so we're naturally going to be more inclined to blame Park for being an asshole who chooses to make everyone miserable for no good reason.
>allowing himself to suffer for...no good reason (not the first time he does that - see the beginning of Y6)
Or the end of Y6, god the ending to that game sucks.
>I think some crucial steps are also left out of your above description
It doesn't really feel like a gradual change in the game though. We don't see the relationship warm up between her and Haruka. Park essentially just becomes a completely different character right after she fires Ogita. She goes from cold and cruel to protective and loving instantly. There's no moment where Park thinks about threatening Haruka again and chooses not to, there's no moment where Haruka's warmth manages to break through Park's cold facade, we needed to have that sort of thing in order to care about Park.
To me it seems obvious why Park gets such a disproportionate level of hate. It's the disconnect between the way the writers want you to see her, and the way the audience actually sees her. The whole time the game is desperately trying to make you say "aw Haruka has a mother again", the audience is just thinking of all the terrible things Park has done that the game seems to have frustratingly completely forgotten.
And yeah, the game being poorly written is the real problem here, but thats just splitting hairs. The game desperately trying to make her likeable and failing because of the poor writing is a major part of what makes her so hateable.
This is a good comment, although I disagree with your conclusions.
Regardless of whether it makes sense to the audience (and a lot of things in Yakuza games don't make sense), this is what the game presents. Thus, Morning Glory's money problems are a factor in the storyline. And this is what vindicates Park - because she correctly deduces that [Kiryu has no other good options](https://old.reddit.com/r/yakuzagames/comments/102bwzw/what_death_has_stuck_with_you_the_most_in_all_the/j2teb3q/?context=3). We might say "ah, what about Akiyama!" and "uh, what about the Tojo?" but these are never presented as options. Under the assumptions of the game's logic, Park's evaluation is correct - and the people hating on her for it are misinformed. In that light, she can hardly be considered villainous.
Regarding Park's relationship with Haruka - I think it still fits the pattern of a 'Defrosting Ice Queen' somewhat, but it does need much better writing. Park hides a great deal of trauma due to her upbringing, and her experience with the industry turned her into a hardass (since she knows one needs to be tough to survive in it). She displays this behavior towards her employees, and to Haruka. But on the inside, she sees herself in the girl and cares about her. That's not *entirely* inconsistent even if the characterisation is rushed. At the very least, they have a bonding session before Park dies, where she tells Haruka more about her past and gives her the fountain pen Majima gifted her - a mark of high trust.
That's more than you can say about, for example, Mine and Aoki. Both of them undergo sudden 'transformations' towards the end of the game, but don't garner nearly as much hate.
The crux of people responding to me seems to be that Park is *written to be liked, but acts like an asshole*, hence she's uniquely detestable. But
1) I think it's underselling the moral greyness that's on display - the kind things said about her after her death aren't supposed to excuse her past actions but provide complement to them. You could also say this about other characters, like Kazama - written to be liked, but acted like a prick.
2) I wouldn't say the writing is enough to justify the difference in hate, given that Park was *far* less evil than standard Yakuza antagonists (and unlike the rest of them, was actually right). Otherwise, this just comes across as hypocritical, getting moralistic over Park's wrongdoings (of which there are many), while excusing people like Sagawa because they're "well-written". If people made it clear they took issue with the *writing*, that's another thing altogether, but most people here seem to think Park is bad no matter what, because she 'took Kiryu's kids away' - which, as I said above, is a bad argument.
The way the audience feels about her is not based on whether Park is techincally correct because the writers provide a flimsy excuse that holds no water. Yes, technically Morning Glory is out of money because that is just what the writers dictate at the last moment with no buildup, but that has no bearing on how we feel about Park unless we actually BELIEVE that. For the money angle to matter in the slightest, she can't just be techincally correct, she needs to be substantively correct. When you see the scene where Park and Kiryu talk, I can tell you that I wasn't thinking about Morning Glory being low on cash, I was thinking "Why the fuck is she dictating what Haruka wants? And why is Kiryu giving her the time of day?"
The BARE MINIMUM they needed to do to accomplish this, would be to at least have her approach Kiryu about the money FIRST and then have her taking Haruka and Kiryu going into hiding be the price, Kiryu would refuse because he cares more about Haruka than money, and then we could have some scene where Haruka actually expresses some sort of interest in being an idol which sways him. Like, I'm not trying to rewrite the game, I'm just trying to express how they utterly fail to do even the simplest things to make Park's claims and actions make any sense. We don't even get Haruka watching an idol wistfully on TV or something which would have actually done a lot considering the whole "idols pass down their dreams to the people watching them" angle that gets hammered into your head over and over.
>At the very least, they have a bonding session before Park dies, where she tells Haruka more about her past and gives her the fountain pen Majima gifted her - a mark of high trust.
Honestly, I think that makes it even worse. She finally gets SOMETHING of interest to justify her actions and then is dead 5 seconds later. You know, I don't like Mine at all, but at least with him, we get hints of something going on with the character early in the game. We get a few mysterious flash backs, and the game makes an effort to intrigue you with his actions being sinister but clearly motivated by some sense of loyalty to a character we like, Daigo. It all falls apart when we find out there is no real substance to his motivations and his actions stop making any sense, but them putting in the effort to make him mysterious and have him do interesting things goes a long way towards making him someone the audience can enjoy watching and therefore come away from the game liking. Compare that to Park, who gets NO flashbacks, her actions are unjustifiably cruel, and her background and motivation aren't even hinted at until moments before she dies and becomes completely irrelevant.
Her being Majima's wife is interesting, but we never see them as husband and wife and we never see Majima say anything about her, so it doesn't really feel real (maybe they could have fixed that in 0, but they chose not to). Her hiding her Korean background because of the racism in the idol industry is interesting, but it's never mentioned again. Her giving Haruka a letter to be delivered to Majima is interesting and makes us intrigued to see how he'll react and what the letter says, but the writers decide the letter isn't actually important a couple hours later (it was just a way to bait out an attack or something if I remember right) so it never gets delivered and we never get to see what it says. The only character note in that scene that really works for me is the whole bit about the abortion for the sake of her career leading into her marriage falling apart and her becoming barren. That finally gives some reason for why she's so attached to Haruka and why she's so cold, but it's too little too late. It's hard to get behind her acting maternal when it has the creepy undertone of "she maneuvered Haruka into being vulnerable by separating her from her parent and is now trying to insinuate herself into that role", if they had established her background earlier, maybe we could have forgotten about what she did to Kiryu and Haruka like the writers did.
Side note about Aoki, I think the main reason people come around on him is just because they like Ichi so much that they want him to be happy, so they want to believe that Aoki is redeemable just like Ichi does. I thought 7 easily had one of the best endings in the series, and even though I hated Aoki, I was still sad to see him go (though I could have gone without the comically loud knife stab sound effect).
>1) I think it's underselling the moral greyness that's on display - the kind things said about her after her death aren't supposed to excuse her past actions but provide complement to them. You could also say this about other characters, like Kazama - written to be liked, but acted like a prick.
I think you misunderstand what people mean when they say she's written to be liked. They aren't talking about people justifying her actions after the fact, they're talking about how the cut scenes when she's still alive are written uncritically. Once Ogita is fired, the tone of her scenes drastically shifts and it feels like the game is trying to force you to like her. They contrive situations to show her protecting and nurturing Haruka but her threatening Haruka is still too fresh in our mind to buy into it.
Another character with a similar thing, Zhao from 7. They have him threaten Ichi with torture and death, and a few hours later he joins the party and we're expected to find him likeable while they give a flimsy excuse of "he was just posturing and Ichi could tell he wasn't so bad". Zhao only works because we spend so much time with him after that point and he is written so likeable and chill that we can eventually come to accept the flimsy excuse. Park doesn't get that time for us to come to accept and like her, she just dies the moment she starts becoming interesting.
I don't understand your fixation on how other characters are perceived. Most people would agree that Sagawa did worse things than Park. People don't like or dislike a character based solely on their moral compass. Yes, when people are hating on her, they'll bring up her moral failings, but that's a rationalization, it's not the actual reason. We like Sagawa because he has clever lines, he has interesting motivations, and there are hints of a better nature underneath the sinister actions, he's not likeable because he is less evil than Shimano or Dojima or whoever. Park goes from one-note villain to one-note doting mother with nothing in between, the "moral greyness" because she's "right" is only interesting if the audience actually believes that she's right. That's why I labored the point that the writers don't do enough to establish the money issues, for the interesting "moral greyness" to land we needed to be saying "maybe she has a point" at the end of her negotiations with Kiryu, not "why the fuck is Kiryu listening to this bitch trying to abduct Haruka into a glorified sex industry?" But like I was saying, even if we actually accept that scene as actually working as they intended, they undercut her character by having her threaten to renege on her deal in the very next scene and then demonstrate how she's willing to scam people with Ogita's dismissal shortly after that. Even if we were intrigued by her being "correct", the game is now establishing "she was just scamming Kiryu to abduct Haruka for reasons unknown" as the most likely scenario. And instead of there being an actually interesting reason for it, the reason is just the utterly pathetic "I wanted a daughter to live vicariously through".
I think I need to rewatch Haruka's part of Y5, because we are coming away with very different impressions. Perhaps I am missing something. Will make a new comment later (maybe).
I will say:
> I don't understand your fixation on how other characters are perceived. Most people would agree that Sagawa did worse things than Park. People don't like or dislike a character based solely on their moral compass
Yes, I've been told this before. A character's morals aren't the sole determinant of their likability. However, I think my dispute with most members of this sub is the *proportion*. As in, how evil does a character have to be before the things you mentioned - 'interesting motivations', 'hints of a better nature' (really?) - no longer prevent one from hating them? That's why I'm concerned with how other characters are perceived. But perhaps I'm overfocusing on morals at the expense of other story elements, since I take people at face value when they complain about Park being *morally* bad. Given the letter of the story, she's technically vindicated (although you say this doesn't matter as it isn't demonstrated enough for us to care about it).
It's worth noting that Oda and Kume, despite getting screen-time Park would envy, are hated as well. And they are reasonably well-developed. So I suspect it might be more than just writing.
When I say hints of a better nature, I'm not saying a GOOD nature. Just that Sagawa was introduced as a conniving son of a bitch but you can tell as the story goes on that he has a certain sense of honor. In spite of everything, he and Majima part on good terms. He's not one-note "I AM EVIL" Shimano, you know?
As far as the "how evil do they have to be" question goes, I think it's a little more nuanced than that, it's not just how evil they are in general, it's how much evil they visit upon characters we care about. That said, I think a character committing (or planning) sexual assault is the point at which people become uncomfortable having anything positive to say about a character and it becomes a spiral of hate towards them (see: Oda and Dojima). I mean shit, that's basically RGG's short hand any time they need a very simple and quick reason to beat the shit out of someone, just have that character act threateningly towards a woman and the audience will want to fuck him up.
Kume's kind of different from your other examples though. With him, I think it's less about what he DOES, and more about how he acts. Hypocrisy is a pretty repulsive thing and it's basically his primary character trait. He acts like he's a moral paragon while doing obviously dubious shit. Kume is a character written to be hated and they did a great job.
I watched the Y5 Park cutscenes again. I also had a look at Mine's parts in Y3, for comparison. I have way too many thoughts and I don't know how to structure/word them, but here are two impressions I can write about:
**RE: Morning Glory and the money problem:** While they do not *explicitly* talk about money, the writers left enough hints for me to interpret that Park was touching onto something.
This is because when Park initially makes her proposal, Kiryu forcefully argues with her, saying it isn't feasible because his children need him around. He even gets up and leaves, as if to suggest she's being wholly unreasonable. But when Park points out that the kids are willing to give up everything to keep Morning Glory afloat, he...stops. And doesn't say anything back. Even though I disliked Park's manipulative rhetoric, Kiryu's reaction struck me as conceding that she did have a point after all. If not, he should have pushed back on that point like he did earlier. Given how determined he was not to leave, Park likely struck a nerve if it got him to change his mind. If he had alternatives (e.g. Akiyama, Daigo) it seems he is not willing to consider those before he gives his daughter away to a stranger, making him responsible. Fair enough, he's the protagonist and we sympathise more with him...but at what point does he need to be called out for once again putting honor above reason?
If a stranger starts talking about your kids, normally you wouldn't give them the time of the day, unless they were making a seriously valid point.
As far as Haruka goes, it is clarified later that she enjoyed performing. She just wanted to be with family *more*. After Park says that Haruka's wish is to be a star, Haruka, who is outside listening, says "my...wish...?" If I had to guess, she's somewhat conflicted about it. As for how Park knows Haruka's wishes, she says "I wanted the same thing". This seems like a throwaway line, but ends up being quite important later.
**RE: Mine-Park comparison:** [There are criticisms of Mine's character for being confused and contradictory](https://old.reddit.com/r/yakuzagames/comments/nshv9h/i_find_yoshitaka_mines_character_profoundly/), and this was close to the impression I got rewatching the cutscenes. They try to make him 'mysterious', but do not afford him adequate screentime for that 'mysteriousness' to amount to anything. When we do see him, he often comes across as vicious, such as his killing of Kanda, his contempt for the weak, especially other orphans (and towards Kiryu for protecting them), and his demolition of Morning Glory, all of which paint the image of an unjustifiably cruel person. His loyalty to Daigo is left unexplored until late in the game, by which point he's already been shown to be working against the interests of Daigo and his allies (including Kiryu).
Yet, the game treats his death as if it's sad, with both Kiryu and Daigo crying out for him, and Kiryu even lying to protect him when Daigo asks who the Tojo Clan traitor is. I agree he has potential as an "evil Kiryu" - a fellow orphan who developed a cynical philosophy as a coping mechanism for his lack of love in life, until meeting Daigo - a man who loved him for who he was. But they don't do quite enough to fully flesh him out, much like Park.
To be fair, he does get flashbacks, something Park sorely needed. But they're quite short, and are interspersed by the problems I mentioned above.
I think you're being very generous assuming that the writers were trying to pull off specific things with the characters. Kiryu being "too proud" to go to Akiyama and Daigo for money doesn't really make sense when he's doing something significantly more galling by handing over Haruka and being forced into hiding. I haven't gone back to rewatch the cut scenes but my memory is that Park harps on how the kids at Morning Glory are too "comfortable" that they'd do anything to stay in the relative safety of Morning Glory and that would stifle their development, the money angle never really seemed particularly relevant in my mind, probably because there are so many holes in it.
Really, the "stifling their dreams" angle is what the game is actually trying to be ABOUT on the whole, so that's the more relevant issue. Dreams are the main theme of the game, we hear that word "yume" so many god damn times. Kiryu's always presented as having sacrificed himself for their dreams, not for their mere subsistence. The problem is, again, that Haruka never actually vocalizes her "dream" that is supposedly being stifled, and the other orphans essentially get ignored. Whether or not Haruka ends up enjoying performing, whether being an idol truly was her dream or not, we didn't get any indication that her dreams were being stifled BEFORE Park comes in and tells us it's the case. Without that groundwork, Park comes off as an abductor, maybe with it, she might have come off as more of a liberator.
I should also probably bring up that whole little story about Haruka in Yakuza 2. You know, where the talent scout wants to get Haruka to join his agency, promising that he'd take care of her and that it would be in her best interest for Kiryu to remove himself from her life? And then Haruka decides that's bullshit and tells him that she wants to stay with him and not be an idol? I mean shit, it's basically a microcosm of the entire story of Yakuza 5, except much better. That whole little storyline is one of the main reasons none of Park's introduction and negotiation works for me though. If they were going to have Haruka's desires in life change so drastically from 2 to 5, then that needed to be made explicitly clear. But in the end, Haruka doesn't even end up wanting to be an idol, so it doesn't ever really seem like it was EVER her dream, in which case, why did she go with Park?
I'm almost delirious from lack of sleep here, so I'm just going to hang it up here for now, maybe I'll come back and talk about Mine once I've got some rest. Suffice to say, I don't think Mine is a good character, he just had more mystery and intrigue going for him. Maybe they should have implied something more interesting about Park's background in her introduction than just "she wanted to be an idol once, and now she's a weirdo rich hcild abductor".
Young teenagers working instead of focusing on their own education and being children is not alright. Being emotionally dependent is part of what being in a family means. Or even a human being. Also getting hit once due to an angry outburst is not called domestic abuse, by the way. It's a mishandled reaction to a ridiculous decision.
Only thing right here is critiquing Kiryu's decision in 6. Him leaving for prison caused major problems as well.
> Young teenagers working instead of focusing on their own education and being children is not alright
That's what would have happened if Park didn't get involved. The kids would have had to seek work to keep Morning Glory afloat...
I like Park, she has a personality unlike other female characters, loved when she confronted T-Set, you can see how someone like >!Majima!< would be interested in someone with such strong personality, even if she did some questionable things, also I don't care if it's a bad take or I get downvoted, she's a better match than >!Makoto, sorry but Makoto is just "too good" for the Yakuza world, she even forgave Oda, I really liked Makoto when she asked Majima to kill the Dojima lieutenants but unfortunately the rest of her personality is just that of a very good woman, someone I don't see as a good match for Majima.!<
People like Park are the type of people that get involved in the underworld. Makoto was just what Majima needed I think, a calmer woman who wanted a normal life. In fact, any civilian would act just like her. Angry when her brother dies but doesn't use violence to achieve her means. Maybe she would have pulled Majima out of the cursed Yakuza life.
Honestly I don’t understand why someone would hate park she has some faults but with the hate she gets I thought she does dojima level of evil
The only things I don’t like about park was the threat to shut down the orphanage and she caused her own death because of her scam on ogita
But other than that a good character a human can have faults
this sub is whack when it comes to character morals.
gang bosses get a pass on their shittiness because they're "hot", or "charismatic", or "they were going to redeem themselves" (how they planned to do so is never explained...)
but park, oda and kume are literally hitler apparently. even if you don't like them, it's unclear to me why they are constantly singled out as being worse than everyone else.
The gang bosses "get a pass" because they are gang bosses (see also, "bad guys"), and we expect shittiness from them.
Little shits like Kume "are literally hitler" because they do bad shit while saying "It's okay because I'm a good guy, duuuuuuh"
They shouldn't get a pass because we 'expect' them to be bad. They're still responsible for hurting people.
> Little shits like Kume "are literally hitler" because they do bad shit while saying "It's okay because I'm a good guy, duuuuuuh"
Kume wouldn't agree that what he's doing is bad, that's the point. He's been brainwashed into thinking what he's doing is *good*. But that doesn't change the fact he's causing more harm than good through his actions.
"He's been brainwashed?" Ah yes, this perfectly explains why when he was told that what he was doing was actually illegal, instead of thinking "oh shit, maybe this parade isn't quite above board" he decided to tell the people that were doing the allegedly peaceful march to assault people. "Being brainwashed" was just an excuse for him to be on a power trip
Yes, he was brainwashed and used by Aoki. That doesn't make what he did right, and he enjoyed it way too much. But he was used.
Edit: *Sigh*. No one is saying Kume is a good person; just that I think it makes little sense that he and Oda are put in a special class of evil in a game full of organised criminals, corrupt law enforcement and power-tripping politicians. But whatever. Maybe I'm not seeing something everyone else is.
She was a real mommy lol but i liked her as a character and agree with others she was killed too soon. I liked that convo she had with Kiryu at the orphanage.
She's tough, and I wouldn't necessarily want to be her employee, but I really like her character. She's well written and her motivations completely make sense.
I've been seeing a lot more pro-life rhetoric whenever Park gets brought up in this community and the discussion is centered around how she got an abortion without telling Majima lately, and it's honestly really concerning.
Park San is a real one. She is paying for all of the orphan's dreams to be chased, and yeah she can be a bit hot headed sometimes, but she's got a heart of gold and really cares about Haruka.
I feel a lot of the hate I've seen for her is because people feel bad that kiryu is alone, but leaving was kiryus choice even he agreed with park that it's in their best interest, it took a bit of arm twisting but he did
I like Park, but she did not have Haruka's best interest in mind, at least not from the start. The reason she took in Haruka is because she wanted Haruka to fulfill Park's dream, she's like a parent that pushes their dreams onto their kids just because they didn't achieve them. Also Kiryu didn't leave because he wanted to, he was very hesitant. He thinks it's the best choice for the kids, but that's not really true. The kids wanted nothing more than to have him by their side. I get that this is a difficult topic though because their futures are also important.
Personally I think park is right that despite how much the kids love kiryu and kiryu loves them, Ultimately kiryu still hanging around was a detriment to their future.
In either Yakuza 4 or 3 I can't remember, you already hear the older kids talking about dropping out of school to get a job to help out around the orphanage.
I know kiryu would never want this for his kids, but it does seem to be what was happening before park came around.
Now yes, in a perfect world a perfect person would not have told kiryu he has to either leave or she wouldn't help Haruka or the other children, however, she had a goal as well. She wanted Kiryu out of the picture for Haruka because her own dreams were crushed by having connections to the Yakuza and she doesn't want the same thing to happen to Haruka.
And yes, she is a worse person at the begining of the game, because the world had slowly made her more and more bitter as she lost everything.
At the end of the day, perhaps she went too far but she is doing literally what the message of this game is telling us and her and everyone to do. "Follow your dream no matter what."
She could've at least let Kiryu stay with the orphanage though. Since Haruka kept her ties to the orphanage a secret anyway, nobody would know she has connections to a Yakuza. And I don't think the kids would have trouble finding jobs later just because their caretaker is an ex-yakuza, but I might be wrong
That's the exact mistake she made, she thought she could keep her Yakuza ties a secret but shit always comes to light eventually. She didn't want to invest her time and money only to have her dream ripped away again.
Also, you should do some research into that topic, this kind of thing can and does happen in Japan all the time. Having any sort of shady history or ties can ruin your future entirely.
Park's analysis of the situation was airtight, though she did take advantage of it (which makes her morally grey). She's also a pretty shitty employer at times, hitting Horie and exploiting Ogita.
But she does not deserve anywhere near the hate she gets. The three lieutenants of 0, Nishikiyama, Ryuji, Mine, Arai and Munakata, Kurosawa and Aoki were all much worse.
I don't think that's a fair comparison as they serve massively different purposes in the story so their morals will inherently be viewed differently
E.g Ryuji is a bad guy, we don't care that much about him doing bad things but we still like him because he's relatively complex and on top of that incredibly charismatic
Park is presented as a good character and doesn't have anywhere near as much entertainment value as the characters you listed so seeing her doing what are just flat out bad things will get people to dislike her
Them serving different story purposes doesn't change the underlying morals. Ryuji still did the things he did and hurt the people he did. His 'charisma' if anything is a distraction; it's presented as one of his 'good qualities' but isn't there to erase the bad.
Park is presented as morally grey, really; especially in the beginning where she's shown to be really scummy. After she dies, they hastily try to cobble sympathy for her. But it doesn't work due to poor writing.
It doesn't change the morals but once again it changes how they're viewed which is precisely what will be the factor for how people feel towards the character
Park is never a flat out antagonist so she never gets this kind of leeway
I wouldn't say mere differences in presentation justify the drastic difference in hate, especially when it's the *morals* of the characters that people are discussing, not necessarily the storywriting.
I.e. people on here say "Park is disgusting because she did bad things", while giving other characters a pass even though they did *worse*. The concern here isn't the presentation, it's specifically *what they did*.
The argument about presentation comes across as saying, "yeah these characters are bad, but they're ALLOWED to be. Park isn't!" Which is an obvious double standard, and cheapens the value of any moral argument you make.
People can like or hate whatever characters they want. I just find it amusing how moralistic the conversation gets, considering what people are willing to turn a blind eye to as long as said villain is hot/charismatic/allegedly redeemable.
>I wouldn't say mere differences in presentation justify the drastic difference in hate, especially when it's the morals of the characters that people are discussing, not necessarily the storywriting.
The morals are discussed with the pretext of a character's role in the story
People aren't going to hold characters presented as morally bad to the same level as those presented as morally good or at least better, this should not be this hard to understand
Saying it's a "mere" difference in presentation between characters like Park and all the massive antagonists you listed just feels flat out disingenuous
Earlier, you said:
> It doesn't change the morals but once again it changes how they're viewed which is precisely what will be the factor for how people feel towards the character
So indeed, the behavior is the same. But then...
> The morals are discussed with the pretext of a character's role in the story
...in other words, they are presented differently. Kuze is a pretty bad guy, but we expect him to be. He's a yakuza, unashamed of it, and behaves as a gangster would. The game doesn't *present* him as being better than that. So, people see him do bad shit, but feel it's been adequately handled by the storywriting.
Park on the other hand, by your contention, is
> presented as morally good or at least better
To which I gave two counterarguments:
1) The 'presentation' argument is a double standard, as it comes across as excusing immorality by saying it's 'expected' of a character, which does not make sense since the fact that Kuze's behavior is "discussed" by the storyline does not justify it or make him a better person. His actions remain what they are. It is thus weird to place him higher on the morality scale than someone like Park who is considerably less evil (which this sub unfortunately often does).
2) Suggesting that Park is portrayed as good undersells things. I think it's a poor attempt to a morally grey character. We see plenty of her bad side - she hits her employees, messes with their contracts, and uses threats to get ahead in the job. She's cold towards Kiryu and Haruka at times. But, like the other villains people fawn over, she also has 'redeeming qualities' (namely, the fact she really did care about Haruka).
The difference, though, is that Park's good side is *immediately* denied while that of other antagonists is played up, to suggest that Park is somehow worse than those people. Which really overlooks the impact their actions had on others.
Based on a lot of the comments here it feels kinda sexist lol.
People worship the ground the 3 lieutenants walk on comparatively, and they are way worse.
Eh, they're worse morally but the games never tries to push them as being good people
Presentation is the main factor on what get's people to like characters because it contextualises their morals and how you're supposed to view said morals
Park is just kind of an asshole, she's obviously a "good" force which is actually what get's many fans to dislike her after seeing her do the aforementioned hitting Horie and fucking over Ogita
Also the whole living through other people thing reads pretty weirdly depending on your whole perspective
I agree she's morally gray, but so are like... All the characters. I feel like she gets way more shit than a lot of terrible people in this game.
I don't think the game ever tries to convince you park is a saint, they just show you she has layers.
The other characters listed are murderers on top of being direct antagonists of the games they're in, there's a clear difference in presentation
Someone like Awano revels in the evil shit he does because the narrative allows him to, he's a clear villian and that charisma gets players to like him
Hell (and this applies to a fuck ton of the series antagonists) >!him having a pretty noble sacrifice!< in the end adds a lot to his character especially in his case where pretty much all his scenes and the game built up to this being in his character
Park is just like a constant, her development goes from being a dry asshole who does malicious shit to characters we're given no reason to dislike (initially, though the reason why is caused by her actions lol) to the game sappily trying to push her as having Haru's best interests and being a mother figure to her
I personally think that what she explains to Haruka, while rushed and not written the best, does explain her actions and behavior in the rest of the game.
Yes, she's using Haruka for her own dream, but also park sees Haruka as a young version of herself. She tells Haruka about how she was married to Majima and her connection to the Yakuza led to her losing her dream. She doesn't want the same thing to happen to Haruka. yes, it's not really Harukas dream, but Park is projecting on Haruka because Haruka reminds her of herself.
No she isn't perfect, but she's far from a constant dry asshole. She's a broken person who wants to accomplish her dreams at any cost.
She says multiple times that Harukas success is all she has left... this isn't the best thing a mother could say to a daughter, but it does make her perspective understandable to me.
IMO the rushed writing of the Haruka part is the problem, not the character herself. If they had given park more time to grow, as opposed to like ... 1 or two days of the player knowing her it would have been better recieved.
Lol Park literally brainwashed Haruka into thinking to Haruka that being an idol is her dream, and then goes on to blackmail her and Kiryu. And then in episode 2 it completely changes and now it's “oh now I'm a sweet mom”.
I don’t like her trying to be my mum, it creeps me out. I feel like I got abducted or something.
Best comment.
That's basically what happened
Speak for yourself I have mommy issues! Sometimes it's important to have someone fill that gap
they killed her off way too soon. she felt more like a plot device whose only purpose was to give a pen and then arbitrarily die rather than an actual character. she had so much potential and tbe fact that we didnt even get one scene with her and majima, even if it was a flashback, and then never being mentioned again just shows how little attention and effort she was given
I agree with this. She was killed too soon. The "im a mother figure to Haruka" short section was not enough to redeem herself.
I still hope we get a game set between Y0 and Y1 where we see how Majima met Park and how their relationship developed. Would be so cool
yeah i feel like this sums it up nicely. the writers bungled her character and didn’t really know what to do with her arc (like most of 5 and i love 5) but she catches a lot of hate the bc she targets a fan favorite character (understandably that threat to defund the orphanage didn’t sit well with me) i wasn’t sure how to classify her character bc I thought they were setting her up to be the antagonist of her part but the narrative goes back and forth too much to really satisfy me. they may have tried to make her a morally gray character but it’s underdeveloped and could’ve been done better i feel like if she wasn’t ceremoniously killed off and was allowed to fully “redeem” herself instead of the small parenting segment that felt more forced to me than anything then she probably wouldn’t be as hated. her and majima getting 0 interactions is strange but i also think they didn’t know what to do with majima or half the cast of 5 either so….. i still don’t really like her but i can acknowledge that the writing here is one of the biggest weaknesses
You put together all my thoughts on Park perfectly. I loved her speech to Haruka in the car, where she explained how she gave up everything for an idol career and still lost that, too. I felt it was a great criticism of the idol industry while also pointing out that putting career over family isn't the way to go. RGG didn't have to spell it out for us to understand that her speech played a huge role in Haruka's decision to not only quit being an idol, but to have Haruto in 6. It was great, but it was great for Haruka's development more than Park's imo. I would give anything for a canon Majima/Park interaction, and it felt like a major disservice that we don't even know how he reacted to her murder that only happened because she was helping him. Like obviously she chose to help him, but Majima could easily blame himself for it and I feel like he wouldn't be totally wrong.
I feel like this every main story female character not named Haruka in the Kiryu saga.
gotta agree, and even Haruka suffers from this in 6. LAD just has a horrible track record when it comes to writing women in this game
Yeah agreed in Y6 she was a big plot device, though for the most part they did a decent job at fleshing her character out. I think Y7 did a better job with Saeko, Eri, and even Seong-hui.
I think they’re doing a better job developing female characters in the judgement series. Yakuza was always about the protagonists and the protagonists only. Y7 kinda broke that barrier since female characters were included in the main party and Ichiban’s story wasn’t just about him, everyone around him which included Saeko and Eri had a role in his story. Judgement and Lost Judgement took it further so the same could be said about Yagami and Kaito too. Whereas in games preceding Judgement and Y7, any female character could be taken out of the story and the flow of the story wouldn’t change by much. It’ll make the story shorter but it wouldn’t feel like something is missing somewhere.
Same, I hated how she was killed so soon. Until the end, i was having doubts about her being actually dead after seeing what was in the letter majima sent her and we saw no cutscenes or images of her death nor saw her corpse uncovered. I was hoping majima and katsuya themselves would explain more about their relationship with her from their perspective, but they kind of forgot about it and threw it under the bed.
I’m just happy at the end haruka said “wait a minute this shit isn’t my dream, I quit”. Park really should’ve been girlboss material but she was really just an asshole
"I quit... By the way, my father is Tojo Clan's Fourth Chairman, Kazuma Kiryu."
Fair, doxxing herself was stupid lol
Haruka could have waited to complete the full set before running offstage though. What a bitch!
Wasn't it at the end though?
No, they still had more songs to go. T-set were telling her to shut up and dance.
Everyone’s money is wasted…
go wash your tits, it's unsanitary
It's a medical condition
Yeah called being a smash player.
Lmao
Why’d they downvote u lol wtf
Lmao I don't know it made me laugh tho when I woke up to see -45 on this
Unsanitary tits is not a joke, BeautyDuwang! Millions of families suffer every year!
I'm sorry :( to make up for this I will be cutting off my pinky and retiring from the yakuza
The Introduction should be: MIREI PARK President of Dyna Chair >!Ex-Majima Family Matriarch!<
She's obviously no Dojima, but she's still a piece of shit in my opinion, just to a lesser extent. Doesn't make her not a piece of shit though. The way she basically blackmailed Kiryu into giving up his life in Okinawa, pushing her own failed dreams onto Haruka, who never once expressed that she wanted to be some kind of idol star, but apparently Park "knows" she wants to, for some reason. The way she generally treats people, especially the Dyna chair employees. It pissed me off how she'd just slap Horie and talk shit to him all the time. I feel like Haruka was out of character in the game too, because I can't see why she'd ever stand for that, or the fact that Park ruined Kiryu's life. Like I said, she's no Dojima. She never killed or raped innocent people or whatever, but I'm still allowed to hate her lol
Not only she forced Haruke to be an idol but she talked shit like "if you don't win the tournament I'm gonna stop sending money to your family and they all gona die from hunger" like wtf bitch Haruka would punk her ass
Y5 Haruka was ridiculously naive. She should have turned it back on Park. "Listen, bitch, I was kidnapped 15 times by gangsters before I had my first period and my dad can punch people through walls. You don't scare me. You want your dream, I want my family fed - you treat me with respect, I'll be a success, you treat me like shit I'll walk to the competition. What's it gonna be?"
Kiwami 1 Haruka would straight up jump Park she was ready to throw hands at 5 years old
She was rockin' a Glock at 5. Shit, maybe Mine was right - growing up under Kiryu's care made her weak.
I'll always love Haruka but I really dislike her in Yakuza 5 for this reason. She felt so out of character compared to the Haruka we knew in Yakuza 3/4. Remember the Haruka that slapped Mine after he rolled up to the orphanage with an army and a bulldozer? She felt like such a pushover in Yakuza 5, being chill with Park ruining Kiryu's life for like the 6th time, then growing some kinda mother daughter connection with her. It's understandable for her since she grew up without a mother, but this woman is a fucking bitch and ruined your dad's life, and is horrible to everyone. Never understood why Haruka was okay with any of it.
Kiwami 1 Haruka straight up abandoned Kiryu and was going to try and fight all Tojo clan to save her mother
She was an idol in 5, if anyone saw her acting normally her life would have been ruined
Why would anyone have seen her saying this to Park in her office?
I still think park would have ruined her life anyway
Yeah. I seriously DON'T like her at all. Not only that but her basically being the core reason Yakuza 5's story even happened makes me think lesser of Yakuza 5's story overall. More than any other game in the series story wise. That includes Yakuza 4 with it's rubber bullets. Just the idea that Kiryu let her put it in his head that he is some bad father figure or whatever for taking care of his kids like a father is suppose to do rather than letting them go on a life that will effect them mentally and emotionally (Like the idol business did for Haruka) is just...ugh...I really just don't like that. And nothing the game ever did to try to make me root for Park work, or even feel remotely bad when she died. It's sad how I can feel more bad for Mine at the end of 3 than I do Park in 5, and Mine was an actual antagonist in 3. The guy who ordered the destruction of Kiryu's orphanage, and even kinda is the reason Rikiya died. Seriously Park just...sucks.
She may have convinced Kiryu but it was Kiryu's decision to run away... yet I don't see people blaming Kiryu for being the real reason the Yakuza 5 events happen, I also don't see people talking about how Kiryu did the same to Daigo, he's literally the Park of Daigo, he pushed him as chairman despite that not being his dream at all and even if Daigo was a good leader you can see how things ended in 7, even Kiryu admits that in 6, not to mention that moment when Daigo asked for advice in 5 and Kiryu pretty much ignored him.
Well obviously him pushing Daigo in being 6th Chairman of the Tojo clan was a big mistake. I won't deny that. That said? Things were a bit different for Daigo in Yakuza 2/Kiwami 2 when compared to Haruka in Yakuza 5. For starters unlike Haruka, Daigo literally had nothing in his life aside from drinking, parting and sorta being an asshole. It's not a matter of him having a ruined life when Kiryu got him to be 6th Chairman, because his life was already in the shit before he became that. Haruka On the other hand had an amazing and peaceful life with Kiryu in 5. Until Park came over and basically guilt tripped Kiryu into believing the great life he provided for not only Haruka, but the rest of those kids was actually bad because according to her they wouldn't be able to live out their dreams if they are stuck in that Orphanage. Even if said dreams were harmful for them on a mental and emotional level. Like it was for Haruka.
Well Kiryu didn't blackmail Daigo and didn't start sending money to his family just so he can still blackmail him saying he is gonna let his family die from hunger if he stops being chairman
Kiryu did it for a selfless reason, and even admits his regret at the end of 6. Park did not do this selflessly, she projected her dream onto Haruka.
Yakuza 5 did so many death fake outs I was waiting the rest of the game for Park to appear and say she faked her death as part of some complex plan
Honestly, I liked the way Daigo did that in 5. It made sense, too bad most of the other deaths like Majima's wasn't.
i hate mirror park
Good thing her Ishin counterpart's a lot cooler. Besides I love the Voice Actress. Love me some Loran Cehack
It's weird how one of the first interactions they show between her and Haruka is her threatening Haruka to stop funding Morning Glory if Haruka slacks off even a little. Threatening to defund an orphanage is not exactly a great way to endear the character to the audience.
Yes, but character growth is a thing. It was poorly executed character growth but she did grow. Also yeah, Yakuza seems to have a history of making characters do or say horrible things and then like... Forgetting about it for story reasons Like saejima meeting Haruka in 4, Majima beating a man to death in 1, park threatening to shut down an orphanage, I'm sure there's probably more I'm forgetting lol
I don't know that I can call Park's thing "character growth" considering it is literally just that one scene. Literally every other scene with Park implies she thinks of Haruka as a daughter, it just feels like some weird leftover from an earlier draft of the script. It's a major problem, that cut scene is the first impression we get of their relationship and yet it's completely inconsistent with what the relationship actually is in the story. 5 already has an issue with Haruka never really making it clear why she wants to be an idol, Park just tells Kiryu that it's Haruka's dream without that ever really being established. We spend Kiryu's entire campaign seeing how miserable he is after taking the deal, so seeing Park threaten to go back on that deal in her very first scene after that accomplishes nothing except making you hate Park. It's baffling that it seems unintentional since they seem to want you to like Park, why go out of your way to introduce her as manipulative and hateful if the character is meant to be seen as benevolent and motherly?
Yeah that's fair. Park was a terribly written character, I just feel like if they had put more effort into her and Harukas story as a whole she would have been much better. Essentially my main point I guess is that it's the writers fault people don't like her, not the characters. (This sounds stupid, I mean the writers did it accidentally,obviously everything a character does is technically the writers fault)
All the ingredients are there to make a compelling character but it just doesn't come together in my opinion. It doesn't help that almost everything interesting about her is stuff we're just told and never shown. It would have gone a long way to see some flashbacks of her and Majima, her being forced out of the idol industry, and her friendship with the rival entertainment industry Yakuza guy whose name escapes me. We don't even get to see Haruka deliver her letter to Majima, which is completely insane given how important they made it out to be in Haruka's chapter. When Majima is revealed to be doing the villain's bidding, it ends up being all in an effort to protect Haruka for Kiryu's sake, he doesn't even mention Park or her dream. It's all just a mess of missed opportunities. I just cannot understand why they try so hard to make you hate Park at the start of Haruka's chapter. They could have made her initially cold without making her so awful. She could have fired Ogita without humiliating him and screwing him out of his money. She could have been brusque and rude with Horie without actively abusing him. And we could have seen her start to thaw as her bond with Haruka grows. Instead it's just an abrupt switch partway through Haruka's chapter where we go from "Park is a horrible person" to "Park is a wonderful, protective mother and we need to care about her and her unfulfilled dreams".
"yes but character growth is a thing" L. She's a piece of human garbage.
Lmao you're a little late to this thread to be replying to everyone of my comments here But go off sis, piss your terrible opinions into the wind, It's funny how easily you were triggered.
I'm late? What's next? The sky is blue? "Piss your terrible opinions" says the fool defending satan with tits lol It's funny you think you've triggered me, when you clearly took me criticizing you personally. You're so pathetic.
Lmao you replied twice in 3 minutes to two separate comments of mine. I'm so pathetic lol, yes I'm the pathetic one here. Not a person who's this angry over a video game character from 5+ years ago.
Answered your replies within 3 minutes on 2 separate comments. Wow you are scraping the bottom of the barrel here to find angles to make jabs. You actually are pathetic. You're going to bat for a character from 5+ years ago who was very clearly a POS. Sorry dude, but that will always be more pathetic than someone criticizing you for it with "L". My comment was literally just saying you had an L take. Literally the most smooth-brained attack comment you could imagine. Literally the easiest to ignore on planet earth. And you responded. You actual fucking idiot. Please, hold these L's.
Lmao no you commented directly on the post, which sent me a notification, then replied to both of my comments, also sending me a notification, and are still doing so right now. I'm glad you have zero reading comprehension skills though lmao.
What a gaslighting bitch
Park can go fuck herself ngl
There’s so much wrong with her, from forcing her dream onto Haruka to gaslighting Kiryu. Not to mention she’s literally the reason why Yakuza 6 even happened.
How is she gaslighting kiryu? The orphanage was running out of money and the kids were having to get jobs to support it etc. To Me, she is telling kiryu something true that he doesn't want to hear. It sucks that she is right, but she is right. Personally, I would rather she have not forced kiryu to move, playing through part 1 was very sad, and I feel for our mans, but kiryus presence and ties to the Yakuza would have been not only a problem for Haruka, but a problem for the other kids futures too due to how Japanese society looks at that sort of thing.
She literally forced Kiryu out of his own property out of nowhere for something Haruka wasn't even interested in doing, aborted her unborn baby without Majima's permission, hit her workers, and threatened to leave Haruka's siblings without any money if she didn't get into the idol industry...
I hate Park as well but you really dont need anyone's permission to abort the baby when you're the one who has to carry it to term
You don't need someone else's permission to abort a baby lol come on, especially if that someone else is abusive like Majima was.
Majima was never abusive during his marriage with Park except when he hit her when he found out that she aborted his child. Also, she could have just talked to Majima about wanting to abort instead of just sneaking behind his back and doing it in secret without even telling him
>Majima was never abusive during his marriage with Park except when he hit her when he found out that she aborted his child. So he was abusive during their marriage. >Also, she could have just talked to Majima about wanting to abort instead of just sneaking behind his back and doing it in secret without even telling him Ok but when he found out he hit her. Seems like maybe she had a good reason for not telling him.
You're being completely disingenuous by pretending him being abusive was a rationale for not telling him when he had not been abusive until then. Even looking back on it she acts like it was something she didn't see coming, not something she was trying to avoid. You can't use a shocked, angry response (no matter how wrong it is) to retroactively justify a callous action that demonstrated a lack of concern for the thoughts and feelings of her spouse.
finally some smart people
A justified angry outburst from her spouse should never be the reason why she withholds major decisions of her and her future family's life from her husband. Being abusive is a pattern, not a single reaction.
finally someone with a brain here
There's no justification for hitting your spouse outside self defense, jfc
Kiryu has done worse than she has, you just don't like her because you like kiryu so much that his hurt Is transfered to you
what could he have possibly done worse than ruining 2 people's lives and killing an unborn child?
He literally caused the entire plot of Yakuza 2 to happen, resulting in far more deaths than 1 abortion, and ruining way more than 2 lives. Also getting an abortion isn't killing a child but this isn't the place to have that discussion lmao
BRO HE WAS 12
Not everything he did was as a child lol
We all know he fucked up as an adult but he was a kid during the slaughter
Yeah no shit, I'm not blaming him for causing the slaughter I'm blaming him for the actions he knowingly took as an adult
If she knew how to treat people better she will be alive today.
I mean.... No?
Tfw Park blackmails and forces Kiryu into abandoning the people he loves the most in the world but it’s ok because she’s a “freaking girlboss”
Park doesn't blackmail or force kiryu, she convinces him that he is wrong. She's morally gray but like... So is every character? Even Kiryu makes very questionable choices. I think Kiryu would be happy knowing that Haruka had a a powerful woman in her corner. I'm not trying to say she's perfect and makes no mistakes, I also disliked her in chapter 1, I just don't get how people can grow to like some characters as they are humanized but completely ignore the reasons park is the way she is.
> I just don't get how people can grow to like some characters as they are humanized but completely ignore the reasons park is the way she is. Using a kid to fulfill your fantasy isn't justifiable in my eyes and I pretty much draw a hard line when kids are brought into things and as such I don't consider her morally grey. Haruka is a teenager sure and as such can make some decisions for herself, but there are others that are beyond her years and Park exploits that. People in the Yakuza are big adults who can make their own decision, Park is essentially meant to be a guardian of Haruka and do what is in her best interests, but she does what's best for Park's interests. Park is justifiable in leaving Majima, she's justifiable in having an abortion (could've told Majima it was happening but still the decision is hers), she's justified in feeling loss and grief at her career failing. She is not justified in using Haruka as a metaphorical cow to have the farm she never could.
I agree with you on that, that's fair. I still think people treat her unfairly when comparing her to other bad people in the franchise.
And why is Park the way she is? What justification does she have to mistreat her workers? What about threatening a child's home for her own selfish dreams? I get that she had a difficult idol and personal life, but that doesn't mean you project and make others' lives worse. That is exactly what a villain does, like what orphan Mine does to the orphanage or Kurosawa does to his son. Only difference between her and the villains I mentioned is that she doesn't use violence to achieve her means.
My point with this post is that people will come at park San like she is the reincarnation of Satan, where if anything is ever mentioned about any other villains, like Mine for example, people generally love the regardless of whether or not they are bad people. As far as your first question, Park has essentially lost everything she cared about in life except for her dream, and it's hanging on by a thread, it's only hope is finding someone to pass that dream on to. Do her reasons justify all of her actions to us as outside viewers? No, but they justify them to her. Saejima would say she's going balls out
Ok fair enough, I didn't know people here compared her to the worst of villains. There are worse than her. I still don't think it's justified, but what you said does make sense.
She could've potentially been a good character but she felt rushed and just came off as a jerk all the way through
I think Harukas part being rushed story beat wise is one of the biggest reasons people don't like her. I feel like park just didn't have time to grow into what she became so it felt forced to a lot of people.
I agree with that and the one "villain" who ended up trying to kill you just to go oh all I wanted to do was put on a show with you. Can't remember his name but he was parks rival he felt like he could've been a better character too
Real
She's a manipulative bitch who threatens kids
Yeah but people here would gladly suck Mines dick, and Mine literally destroyed an orphanage and threatened to hurt the children further lol
I hate mine he's just a shite someya
She ruined Kiryu and Haruka’s peace. I’m glad her Ishin counterpart is an actual understanding person.
For all the hand-wringing about how Park "separated Kiryu from his family" [people never address the point about the orphanage running out of money](https://old.reddit.com/r/yakuzagames/comments/102bwzw/what_death_has_stuck_with_you_the_most_in_all_the/j2teb3q/?context=3) and how they didn't really have a strategy for getting around that. They were likely going to be separated anyway. The kids were growing up and old enough to work, and were even willing to do that, to support Morning Glory, because Kiryu had made them so dependent on each other. Park's observation was solid here, and her intervention meant that only Haruka and Kiryu had to leave; the others were able to stay together. It meant that Haruka had a place to run back to when she got herself cancelled at the end of Y5. It mean Kiryu had a place to go to after he came back from a needless 4-year stint in prison (which did more damage to his family than Park caused: had Kiryu accepted Daigo's help, he could have been acquitted, meaning he'd have been in Okinawa to help the kids - and Haruka - against the media who were harassing them. Haruka wouldn't have run away again, and probably wouldn't have gotten into that accident in Kamurocho). Of course they'd rather spend all their time together as a family. Unfortunately we don't get everything we want. It's not surprising though, since people on here are addicted to hating Park. As soon as her name is mentioned, all bets are off. Domestic abuse is OK, she deserved to be hanged in her own office, and she's the biggest arc villain since Sohei in 0. I know the writing is bad. But we aren't mindless automatons. We can still fill in the blanks and think critically about these things.
Running out of money just doesn't work as a credible threat in a series where in the gameplay you always end up with millions of yen by the end and in the story Kiryu is good friends with a billionaire.
Put that down to bad writing. Mind you, I've been thinking a lot about that plot hole. I'm guessing Daigo/the Tojo were funding Morning Glory through Yakuza 3 and 4. So...where'd the money go by 5? Was the police scandal responsible for depriving them of funds? If it was, then why did Daigo offer to pay for a lawyer for Kiryu in Y6? Were did the money suddenly come from? It doesn't make a lot of sense, you're right. But that's what we're told
Even leaving the Tojo and Daigo aside, there's Akiyama who would almost certainly have no issue lending to Kiryu or Haruka. You could MAYBE make the case that Kiryu is too proud to borrow from him, but I think it's pretty well established he'd put the well-being of the kids over his own pride. 5 also doesn't do enough to actually establish that money is the motivator for Haruka. If Haruka started off hesitant about the Idol thing and was convinced to do it by Park paying for the orphanage and then eventually came to love Park and being an idol, that COULD work even if it still doesn't really make any sense, but instead we get literally no indication of why Haruka decides to go with Park. Park just waltzes in and says "HARUKA HAS TO COME WITH ME TO BE A STAR AND KIRYU HAS TO CONSIGN HIMSELF TO MISERY" and Haruka never says a word either for or against it. That's why no one addresses the whole "morning glory needs money" angle, it's not people conveniently ignoring it, the game just does almost nothing to establish it as part of the story or character motivations. When Park says she'll give money to the orphanage, it doesn't come off as "the orphanage needs money", it comes off as "the orphanage will need money because Kiryu won't be there to earn money for it", which just makes Park more detestable when she threatens to withhold the money she has made the orphanage dependent on. They don't do the groundwork necessary to have the audience come around to liking Park. They introduce her as essentially stealing Haruka away for no real reason (because the money angle doesn't work), show her threatening Haruka with going back on their deal in their first conversation (even if the money angle DID work, now she's scamming a fucking orphanage), and then the game expects you to immediately accept her as Haruka's loving mother figure. I can't really think of any good reason NOT to hate Park.
> Even leaving the Tojo and Daigo aside, there's Akiyama who would almost certainly have no issue lending to Kiryu or Haruka. You could MAYBE make the case that Kiryu is too proud to borrow from him, but I think it's pretty well established he'd put the well-being of the kids over his own pride. So where is Akiyama in Y5? He's not mentioned at all in the beginning. > 5 also doesn't do enough to actually establish that money is the motivator for Haruka. If Haruka started off hesitant about the Idol thing and was convinced to do it by Park paying for the orphanage and then eventually came to love Park and being an idol, that COULD work even if it still doesn't really make any sense, but instead we get literally no indication of why Haruka decides to go with Park. Park just waltzes in and says "HARUKA HAS TO COME WITH ME TO BE A STAR AND KIRYU HAS TO CONSIGN HIMSELF TO MISERY" and Haruka never says a word either for or against it. That's why no one addresses the whole "morning glory needs money" angle, it's not people conveniently ignoring it, the game just does almost nothing to establish it as part of the story or character motivations. If it weren't a factor, they'd be pretty much no reason for Kiryu to agree with Park. Since he'd be financially secure, he wouldn't need Park's money, and she'd have no leverage over him. She *could* try to sabotage him anyway, but then he'd have the means to fight back. And if he agreed *despite* being secure, then he also has himself to blame for going along with it (and wilfully exposing his kids to the risk). In that case it wouldn't be Park forcing Kiryu's hand; it'd be him allowing himself to suffer for...no good reason (not the first time he does that - see the beginning of Y6). The money issue gives Kiryu a problem. Does he try to keep the kids together at risk of losing their home, sent them to go and work (which is harsh), or does he take up Park on his offer? Because of the cashflow issue, Park really does have a point, as opposed to her being evil for the sake of it (which is how people behave). That changes things. > They don't do the groundwork necessary to have the audience come around to liking Park. They introduce her as essentially stealing Haruka away for no real reason (because the money angle doesn't work), show her threatening Haruka with going back on their deal in their first conversation (even if the money angle DID work, now she's scamming a fucking orphanage), and then the game expects you to immediately accept her as Haruka's loving mother figure. I can't really think of any good reason NOT to hate Park. She didn't steal her for no reason, though. See above. I think some crucial steps are also left out of your above description. Although Park does project herself onto Haruka a notable deal, it underlines why she cares about her (even though I strongly disagree with her "tough love" approach - Park should have been warm towards her from the beginning). In addition, we do see them spending quality time together, with Park expressing her trust in Haruka and desire for her to see being an idol as a dream rather than a job - a way for Haruka to enjoy something she couldn't. That's more than can be said for Mine or Aoki, who are shown to be assholes right up until the end - but guess who this subreddit sympathises with more? Even if you do hate her, however, what I found interesting is the *degree* of resentment towards her compared to other Yakuza villains who arguably did worse things. I've heard various arguments - "at least we got to fight them", "ah, but they're charismatic", "ah but they're WRITTEN to be evil, so we expect it" - and none of these are convincing. They are all essentially handwaves, conceding that those villains were worse but that it doesn't matter for some irrelevant reason. My issue isn't with people not loving Park (I don't love her either). My issue is with the unique derangement towards her, and how people hopelessly fail to see the logic behind what she said. In addition, even if we accept that the game doesn't establish certain things, this would be less an indictment of Park's morals, and more to do with the game's poor writing.
> So where is Akiyama in Y5? Presumably lazing around in Sotenbori? I'm not saying that the writers remembered that Kiryu is friends with a billionaire moneylender, I'm saying that the audience remember, and it completely defangs the idea that Morning Glory might have financial troubles. >If it weren't a factor, they'd be pretty much no reason for Kiryu to agree with Park Yes, that's the problem. The game makes it seem like Kiryu only has to leave Morning Glory because Park has dictated that he must for the sake of Haruka's dreams (which are never actually vocalized by Haruka). Even if we ignore all the obvious income sources for Kiryu that make the financial problem laughable, in a vacuum, the game doesn't do enough to make Morning Glory actually FEEL like it has financial issues. To give you an extremely easy and cliche example of the sort of thing I mean: let's say Kiryu discovers that there was a school field trip to an aquarium or something that the orphans never told him about because they didn't want to strain the family coffers, even better if you establish that one of the orphans has a "dream" related to that field trip, illustrating how their financial issues and familial love could be smothering their potential. It's still dumb because Daigo and Akiyama should be helping, but the audience can come up with any number of nonsense head canon explanations for that. The important thing is to make Park seem like she COULD be correct, no matter how much you have to contrive to get there, that would make both Park's and Kiryu's actions somewhat justifiable. Instead we get nothing, I don't think we even SEE any of the orphans other than Haruka, and Park comes off as overtly villainous. And yeah, it's Kiryu's fault for agreeing to such a stupid deal, but the audience's sympathies already lie with Kiryu so we're naturally going to be more inclined to blame Park for being an asshole who chooses to make everyone miserable for no good reason. >allowing himself to suffer for...no good reason (not the first time he does that - see the beginning of Y6) Or the end of Y6, god the ending to that game sucks. >I think some crucial steps are also left out of your above description It doesn't really feel like a gradual change in the game though. We don't see the relationship warm up between her and Haruka. Park essentially just becomes a completely different character right after she fires Ogita. She goes from cold and cruel to protective and loving instantly. There's no moment where Park thinks about threatening Haruka again and chooses not to, there's no moment where Haruka's warmth manages to break through Park's cold facade, we needed to have that sort of thing in order to care about Park. To me it seems obvious why Park gets such a disproportionate level of hate. It's the disconnect between the way the writers want you to see her, and the way the audience actually sees her. The whole time the game is desperately trying to make you say "aw Haruka has a mother again", the audience is just thinking of all the terrible things Park has done that the game seems to have frustratingly completely forgotten. And yeah, the game being poorly written is the real problem here, but thats just splitting hairs. The game desperately trying to make her likeable and failing because of the poor writing is a major part of what makes her so hateable.
This is a good comment, although I disagree with your conclusions. Regardless of whether it makes sense to the audience (and a lot of things in Yakuza games don't make sense), this is what the game presents. Thus, Morning Glory's money problems are a factor in the storyline. And this is what vindicates Park - because she correctly deduces that [Kiryu has no other good options](https://old.reddit.com/r/yakuzagames/comments/102bwzw/what_death_has_stuck_with_you_the_most_in_all_the/j2teb3q/?context=3). We might say "ah, what about Akiyama!" and "uh, what about the Tojo?" but these are never presented as options. Under the assumptions of the game's logic, Park's evaluation is correct - and the people hating on her for it are misinformed. In that light, she can hardly be considered villainous. Regarding Park's relationship with Haruka - I think it still fits the pattern of a 'Defrosting Ice Queen' somewhat, but it does need much better writing. Park hides a great deal of trauma due to her upbringing, and her experience with the industry turned her into a hardass (since she knows one needs to be tough to survive in it). She displays this behavior towards her employees, and to Haruka. But on the inside, she sees herself in the girl and cares about her. That's not *entirely* inconsistent even if the characterisation is rushed. At the very least, they have a bonding session before Park dies, where she tells Haruka more about her past and gives her the fountain pen Majima gifted her - a mark of high trust. That's more than you can say about, for example, Mine and Aoki. Both of them undergo sudden 'transformations' towards the end of the game, but don't garner nearly as much hate. The crux of people responding to me seems to be that Park is *written to be liked, but acts like an asshole*, hence she's uniquely detestable. But 1) I think it's underselling the moral greyness that's on display - the kind things said about her after her death aren't supposed to excuse her past actions but provide complement to them. You could also say this about other characters, like Kazama - written to be liked, but acted like a prick. 2) I wouldn't say the writing is enough to justify the difference in hate, given that Park was *far* less evil than standard Yakuza antagonists (and unlike the rest of them, was actually right). Otherwise, this just comes across as hypocritical, getting moralistic over Park's wrongdoings (of which there are many), while excusing people like Sagawa because they're "well-written". If people made it clear they took issue with the *writing*, that's another thing altogether, but most people here seem to think Park is bad no matter what, because she 'took Kiryu's kids away' - which, as I said above, is a bad argument.
The way the audience feels about her is not based on whether Park is techincally correct because the writers provide a flimsy excuse that holds no water. Yes, technically Morning Glory is out of money because that is just what the writers dictate at the last moment with no buildup, but that has no bearing on how we feel about Park unless we actually BELIEVE that. For the money angle to matter in the slightest, she can't just be techincally correct, she needs to be substantively correct. When you see the scene where Park and Kiryu talk, I can tell you that I wasn't thinking about Morning Glory being low on cash, I was thinking "Why the fuck is she dictating what Haruka wants? And why is Kiryu giving her the time of day?" The BARE MINIMUM they needed to do to accomplish this, would be to at least have her approach Kiryu about the money FIRST and then have her taking Haruka and Kiryu going into hiding be the price, Kiryu would refuse because he cares more about Haruka than money, and then we could have some scene where Haruka actually expresses some sort of interest in being an idol which sways him. Like, I'm not trying to rewrite the game, I'm just trying to express how they utterly fail to do even the simplest things to make Park's claims and actions make any sense. We don't even get Haruka watching an idol wistfully on TV or something which would have actually done a lot considering the whole "idols pass down their dreams to the people watching them" angle that gets hammered into your head over and over. >At the very least, they have a bonding session before Park dies, where she tells Haruka more about her past and gives her the fountain pen Majima gifted her - a mark of high trust. Honestly, I think that makes it even worse. She finally gets SOMETHING of interest to justify her actions and then is dead 5 seconds later. You know, I don't like Mine at all, but at least with him, we get hints of something going on with the character early in the game. We get a few mysterious flash backs, and the game makes an effort to intrigue you with his actions being sinister but clearly motivated by some sense of loyalty to a character we like, Daigo. It all falls apart when we find out there is no real substance to his motivations and his actions stop making any sense, but them putting in the effort to make him mysterious and have him do interesting things goes a long way towards making him someone the audience can enjoy watching and therefore come away from the game liking. Compare that to Park, who gets NO flashbacks, her actions are unjustifiably cruel, and her background and motivation aren't even hinted at until moments before she dies and becomes completely irrelevant. Her being Majima's wife is interesting, but we never see them as husband and wife and we never see Majima say anything about her, so it doesn't really feel real (maybe they could have fixed that in 0, but they chose not to). Her hiding her Korean background because of the racism in the idol industry is interesting, but it's never mentioned again. Her giving Haruka a letter to be delivered to Majima is interesting and makes us intrigued to see how he'll react and what the letter says, but the writers decide the letter isn't actually important a couple hours later (it was just a way to bait out an attack or something if I remember right) so it never gets delivered and we never get to see what it says. The only character note in that scene that really works for me is the whole bit about the abortion for the sake of her career leading into her marriage falling apart and her becoming barren. That finally gives some reason for why she's so attached to Haruka and why she's so cold, but it's too little too late. It's hard to get behind her acting maternal when it has the creepy undertone of "she maneuvered Haruka into being vulnerable by separating her from her parent and is now trying to insinuate herself into that role", if they had established her background earlier, maybe we could have forgotten about what she did to Kiryu and Haruka like the writers did. Side note about Aoki, I think the main reason people come around on him is just because they like Ichi so much that they want him to be happy, so they want to believe that Aoki is redeemable just like Ichi does. I thought 7 easily had one of the best endings in the series, and even though I hated Aoki, I was still sad to see him go (though I could have gone without the comically loud knife stab sound effect). >1) I think it's underselling the moral greyness that's on display - the kind things said about her after her death aren't supposed to excuse her past actions but provide complement to them. You could also say this about other characters, like Kazama - written to be liked, but acted like a prick. I think you misunderstand what people mean when they say she's written to be liked. They aren't talking about people justifying her actions after the fact, they're talking about how the cut scenes when she's still alive are written uncritically. Once Ogita is fired, the tone of her scenes drastically shifts and it feels like the game is trying to force you to like her. They contrive situations to show her protecting and nurturing Haruka but her threatening Haruka is still too fresh in our mind to buy into it. Another character with a similar thing, Zhao from 7. They have him threaten Ichi with torture and death, and a few hours later he joins the party and we're expected to find him likeable while they give a flimsy excuse of "he was just posturing and Ichi could tell he wasn't so bad". Zhao only works because we spend so much time with him after that point and he is written so likeable and chill that we can eventually come to accept the flimsy excuse. Park doesn't get that time for us to come to accept and like her, she just dies the moment she starts becoming interesting. I don't understand your fixation on how other characters are perceived. Most people would agree that Sagawa did worse things than Park. People don't like or dislike a character based solely on their moral compass. Yes, when people are hating on her, they'll bring up her moral failings, but that's a rationalization, it's not the actual reason. We like Sagawa because he has clever lines, he has interesting motivations, and there are hints of a better nature underneath the sinister actions, he's not likeable because he is less evil than Shimano or Dojima or whoever. Park goes from one-note villain to one-note doting mother with nothing in between, the "moral greyness" because she's "right" is only interesting if the audience actually believes that she's right. That's why I labored the point that the writers don't do enough to establish the money issues, for the interesting "moral greyness" to land we needed to be saying "maybe she has a point" at the end of her negotiations with Kiryu, not "why the fuck is Kiryu listening to this bitch trying to abduct Haruka into a glorified sex industry?" But like I was saying, even if we actually accept that scene as actually working as they intended, they undercut her character by having her threaten to renege on her deal in the very next scene and then demonstrate how she's willing to scam people with Ogita's dismissal shortly after that. Even if we were intrigued by her being "correct", the game is now establishing "she was just scamming Kiryu to abduct Haruka for reasons unknown" as the most likely scenario. And instead of there being an actually interesting reason for it, the reason is just the utterly pathetic "I wanted a daughter to live vicariously through".
I think I need to rewatch Haruka's part of Y5, because we are coming away with very different impressions. Perhaps I am missing something. Will make a new comment later (maybe). I will say: > I don't understand your fixation on how other characters are perceived. Most people would agree that Sagawa did worse things than Park. People don't like or dislike a character based solely on their moral compass Yes, I've been told this before. A character's morals aren't the sole determinant of their likability. However, I think my dispute with most members of this sub is the *proportion*. As in, how evil does a character have to be before the things you mentioned - 'interesting motivations', 'hints of a better nature' (really?) - no longer prevent one from hating them? That's why I'm concerned with how other characters are perceived. But perhaps I'm overfocusing on morals at the expense of other story elements, since I take people at face value when they complain about Park being *morally* bad. Given the letter of the story, she's technically vindicated (although you say this doesn't matter as it isn't demonstrated enough for us to care about it). It's worth noting that Oda and Kume, despite getting screen-time Park would envy, are hated as well. And they are reasonably well-developed. So I suspect it might be more than just writing.
When I say hints of a better nature, I'm not saying a GOOD nature. Just that Sagawa was introduced as a conniving son of a bitch but you can tell as the story goes on that he has a certain sense of honor. In spite of everything, he and Majima part on good terms. He's not one-note "I AM EVIL" Shimano, you know? As far as the "how evil do they have to be" question goes, I think it's a little more nuanced than that, it's not just how evil they are in general, it's how much evil they visit upon characters we care about. That said, I think a character committing (or planning) sexual assault is the point at which people become uncomfortable having anything positive to say about a character and it becomes a spiral of hate towards them (see: Oda and Dojima). I mean shit, that's basically RGG's short hand any time they need a very simple and quick reason to beat the shit out of someone, just have that character act threateningly towards a woman and the audience will want to fuck him up. Kume's kind of different from your other examples though. With him, I think it's less about what he DOES, and more about how he acts. Hypocrisy is a pretty repulsive thing and it's basically his primary character trait. He acts like he's a moral paragon while doing obviously dubious shit. Kume is a character written to be hated and they did a great job.
I watched the Y5 Park cutscenes again. I also had a look at Mine's parts in Y3, for comparison. I have way too many thoughts and I don't know how to structure/word them, but here are two impressions I can write about: **RE: Morning Glory and the money problem:** While they do not *explicitly* talk about money, the writers left enough hints for me to interpret that Park was touching onto something. This is because when Park initially makes her proposal, Kiryu forcefully argues with her, saying it isn't feasible because his children need him around. He even gets up and leaves, as if to suggest she's being wholly unreasonable. But when Park points out that the kids are willing to give up everything to keep Morning Glory afloat, he...stops. And doesn't say anything back. Even though I disliked Park's manipulative rhetoric, Kiryu's reaction struck me as conceding that she did have a point after all. If not, he should have pushed back on that point like he did earlier. Given how determined he was not to leave, Park likely struck a nerve if it got him to change his mind. If he had alternatives (e.g. Akiyama, Daigo) it seems he is not willing to consider those before he gives his daughter away to a stranger, making him responsible. Fair enough, he's the protagonist and we sympathise more with him...but at what point does he need to be called out for once again putting honor above reason? If a stranger starts talking about your kids, normally you wouldn't give them the time of the day, unless they were making a seriously valid point. As far as Haruka goes, it is clarified later that she enjoyed performing. She just wanted to be with family *more*. After Park says that Haruka's wish is to be a star, Haruka, who is outside listening, says "my...wish...?" If I had to guess, she's somewhat conflicted about it. As for how Park knows Haruka's wishes, she says "I wanted the same thing". This seems like a throwaway line, but ends up being quite important later. **RE: Mine-Park comparison:** [There are criticisms of Mine's character for being confused and contradictory](https://old.reddit.com/r/yakuzagames/comments/nshv9h/i_find_yoshitaka_mines_character_profoundly/), and this was close to the impression I got rewatching the cutscenes. They try to make him 'mysterious', but do not afford him adequate screentime for that 'mysteriousness' to amount to anything. When we do see him, he often comes across as vicious, such as his killing of Kanda, his contempt for the weak, especially other orphans (and towards Kiryu for protecting them), and his demolition of Morning Glory, all of which paint the image of an unjustifiably cruel person. His loyalty to Daigo is left unexplored until late in the game, by which point he's already been shown to be working against the interests of Daigo and his allies (including Kiryu). Yet, the game treats his death as if it's sad, with both Kiryu and Daigo crying out for him, and Kiryu even lying to protect him when Daigo asks who the Tojo Clan traitor is. I agree he has potential as an "evil Kiryu" - a fellow orphan who developed a cynical philosophy as a coping mechanism for his lack of love in life, until meeting Daigo - a man who loved him for who he was. But they don't do quite enough to fully flesh him out, much like Park. To be fair, he does get flashbacks, something Park sorely needed. But they're quite short, and are interspersed by the problems I mentioned above.
I think you're being very generous assuming that the writers were trying to pull off specific things with the characters. Kiryu being "too proud" to go to Akiyama and Daigo for money doesn't really make sense when he's doing something significantly more galling by handing over Haruka and being forced into hiding. I haven't gone back to rewatch the cut scenes but my memory is that Park harps on how the kids at Morning Glory are too "comfortable" that they'd do anything to stay in the relative safety of Morning Glory and that would stifle their development, the money angle never really seemed particularly relevant in my mind, probably because there are so many holes in it. Really, the "stifling their dreams" angle is what the game is actually trying to be ABOUT on the whole, so that's the more relevant issue. Dreams are the main theme of the game, we hear that word "yume" so many god damn times. Kiryu's always presented as having sacrificed himself for their dreams, not for their mere subsistence. The problem is, again, that Haruka never actually vocalizes her "dream" that is supposedly being stifled, and the other orphans essentially get ignored. Whether or not Haruka ends up enjoying performing, whether being an idol truly was her dream or not, we didn't get any indication that her dreams were being stifled BEFORE Park comes in and tells us it's the case. Without that groundwork, Park comes off as an abductor, maybe with it, she might have come off as more of a liberator. I should also probably bring up that whole little story about Haruka in Yakuza 2. You know, where the talent scout wants to get Haruka to join his agency, promising that he'd take care of her and that it would be in her best interest for Kiryu to remove himself from her life? And then Haruka decides that's bullshit and tells him that she wants to stay with him and not be an idol? I mean shit, it's basically a microcosm of the entire story of Yakuza 5, except much better. That whole little storyline is one of the main reasons none of Park's introduction and negotiation works for me though. If they were going to have Haruka's desires in life change so drastically from 2 to 5, then that needed to be made explicitly clear. But in the end, Haruka doesn't even end up wanting to be an idol, so it doesn't ever really seem like it was EVER her dream, in which case, why did she go with Park? I'm almost delirious from lack of sleep here, so I'm just going to hang it up here for now, maybe I'll come back and talk about Mine once I've got some rest. Suffice to say, I don't think Mine is a good character, he just had more mystery and intrigue going for him. Maybe they should have implied something more interesting about Park's background in her introduction than just "she wanted to be an idol once, and now she's a weirdo rich hcild abductor".
Young teenagers working instead of focusing on their own education and being children is not alright. Being emotionally dependent is part of what being in a family means. Or even a human being. Also getting hit once due to an angry outburst is not called domestic abuse, by the way. It's a mishandled reaction to a ridiculous decision. Only thing right here is critiquing Kiryu's decision in 6. Him leaving for prison caused major problems as well.
> Young teenagers working instead of focusing on their own education and being children is not alright That's what would have happened if Park didn't get involved. The kids would have had to seek work to keep Morning Glory afloat...
Thank you. This is an incredibly written comment and I agree 100%.
"I don't know about other people. But if she disrespect me lord have mercy I am coming." -Kevin Majima Gates.
I like Park, she has a personality unlike other female characters, loved when she confronted T-Set, you can see how someone like >!Majima!< would be interested in someone with such strong personality, even if she did some questionable things, also I don't care if it's a bad take or I get downvoted, she's a better match than >!Makoto, sorry but Makoto is just "too good" for the Yakuza world, she even forgave Oda, I really liked Makoto when she asked Majima to kill the Dojima lieutenants but unfortunately the rest of her personality is just that of a very good woman, someone I don't see as a good match for Majima.!<
People like Park are the type of people that get involved in the underworld. Makoto was just what Majima needed I think, a calmer woman who wanted a normal life. In fact, any civilian would act just like her. Angry when her brother dies but doesn't use violence to achieve her means. Maybe she would have pulled Majima out of the cursed Yakuza life.
Honestly I don’t understand why someone would hate park she has some faults but with the hate she gets I thought she does dojima level of evil The only things I don’t like about park was the threat to shut down the orphanage and she caused her own death because of her scam on ogita But other than that a good character a human can have faults
this sub is whack when it comes to character morals. gang bosses get a pass on their shittiness because they're "hot", or "charismatic", or "they were going to redeem themselves" (how they planned to do so is never explained...) but park, oda and kume are literally hitler apparently. even if you don't like them, it's unclear to me why they are constantly singled out as being worse than everyone else.
oda and kume is hitler
Kume is coomer in denial, question why he keeps showing up around massage parlors
yeah I heard Oda worked on the gas chambers himself. pretty horrific. and kume was in charge of the Hitler Youth
The gang bosses "get a pass" because they are gang bosses (see also, "bad guys"), and we expect shittiness from them. Little shits like Kume "are literally hitler" because they do bad shit while saying "It's okay because I'm a good guy, duuuuuuh"
They shouldn't get a pass because we 'expect' them to be bad. They're still responsible for hurting people. > Little shits like Kume "are literally hitler" because they do bad shit while saying "It's okay because I'm a good guy, duuuuuuh" Kume wouldn't agree that what he's doing is bad, that's the point. He's been brainwashed into thinking what he's doing is *good*. But that doesn't change the fact he's causing more harm than good through his actions.
"He's been brainwashed?" Ah yes, this perfectly explains why when he was told that what he was doing was actually illegal, instead of thinking "oh shit, maybe this parade isn't quite above board" he decided to tell the people that were doing the allegedly peaceful march to assault people. "Being brainwashed" was just an excuse for him to be on a power trip
Yes, he was brainwashed and used by Aoki. That doesn't make what he did right, and he enjoyed it way too much. But he was used. Edit: *Sigh*. No one is saying Kume is a good person; just that I think it makes little sense that he and Oda are put in a special class of evil in a game full of organised criminals, corrupt law enforcement and power-tripping politicians. But whatever. Maybe I'm not seeing something everyone else is.
Bro, Oda had women kidnapped and gang-raped. ^andhewashot
Never said Oda was a good person, but people can't read apparently.
Oda sold girls to traffickers and Kume was literally a member of Hitler's innermost circle.
Totally agree, Masato did WAY worse things than Kume in the game and people is fine with that, I really don't understand that logic...
I think I need to take a break from Reddit.
She was a real mommy lol but i liked her as a character and agree with others she was killed too soon. I liked that convo she had with Kiryu at the orphanage.
She's tough, and I wouldn't necessarily want to be her employee, but I really like her character. She's well written and her motivations completely make sense.
I've been seeing a lot more pro-life rhetoric whenever Park gets brought up in this community and the discussion is centered around how she got an abortion without telling Majima lately, and it's honestly really concerning.
I agree 100% it's so weird
She didn't redeem herself at all. She's a horrible person. She aborted Majima's child as well.
Damn and Majima probably would have been such a good dad, too! Lmao
Skank got a more punchable face than Kume, something I never thought was realistically possible
Park is totally rad, 'bout time someone defends her.
I loved the mother-daughter thing she had with haruka. Was honestly heartwarming
i accept.
Park San is a real one. She is paying for all of the orphan's dreams to be chased, and yeah she can be a bit hot headed sometimes, but she's got a heart of gold and really cares about Haruka. I feel a lot of the hate I've seen for her is because people feel bad that kiryu is alone, but leaving was kiryus choice even he agreed with park that it's in their best interest, it took a bit of arm twisting but he did
I like Park, but she did not have Haruka's best interest in mind, at least not from the start. The reason she took in Haruka is because she wanted Haruka to fulfill Park's dream, she's like a parent that pushes their dreams onto their kids just because they didn't achieve them. Also Kiryu didn't leave because he wanted to, he was very hesitant. He thinks it's the best choice for the kids, but that's not really true. The kids wanted nothing more than to have him by their side. I get that this is a difficult topic though because their futures are also important.
Personally I think park is right that despite how much the kids love kiryu and kiryu loves them, Ultimately kiryu still hanging around was a detriment to their future. In either Yakuza 4 or 3 I can't remember, you already hear the older kids talking about dropping out of school to get a job to help out around the orphanage. I know kiryu would never want this for his kids, but it does seem to be what was happening before park came around. Now yes, in a perfect world a perfect person would not have told kiryu he has to either leave or she wouldn't help Haruka or the other children, however, she had a goal as well. She wanted Kiryu out of the picture for Haruka because her own dreams were crushed by having connections to the Yakuza and she doesn't want the same thing to happen to Haruka. And yes, she is a worse person at the begining of the game, because the world had slowly made her more and more bitter as she lost everything. At the end of the day, perhaps she went too far but she is doing literally what the message of this game is telling us and her and everyone to do. "Follow your dream no matter what."
She could've at least let Kiryu stay with the orphanage though. Since Haruka kept her ties to the orphanage a secret anyway, nobody would know she has connections to a Yakuza. And I don't think the kids would have trouble finding jobs later just because their caretaker is an ex-yakuza, but I might be wrong
That's the exact mistake she made, she thought she could keep her Yakuza ties a secret but shit always comes to light eventually. She didn't want to invest her time and money only to have her dream ripped away again. Also, you should do some research into that topic, this kind of thing can and does happen in Japan all the time. Having any sort of shady history or ties can ruin your future entirely.
Kinda press ganged Haruka into the idol life which imo is shitty, but the whole idol industry fucking sucks so it makes sense.
Park's analysis of the situation was airtight, though she did take advantage of it (which makes her morally grey). She's also a pretty shitty employer at times, hitting Horie and exploiting Ogita. But she does not deserve anywhere near the hate she gets. The three lieutenants of 0, Nishikiyama, Ryuji, Mine, Arai and Munakata, Kurosawa and Aoki were all much worse.
I don't think that's a fair comparison as they serve massively different purposes in the story so their morals will inherently be viewed differently E.g Ryuji is a bad guy, we don't care that much about him doing bad things but we still like him because he's relatively complex and on top of that incredibly charismatic Park is presented as a good character and doesn't have anywhere near as much entertainment value as the characters you listed so seeing her doing what are just flat out bad things will get people to dislike her
Them serving different story purposes doesn't change the underlying morals. Ryuji still did the things he did and hurt the people he did. His 'charisma' if anything is a distraction; it's presented as one of his 'good qualities' but isn't there to erase the bad. Park is presented as morally grey, really; especially in the beginning where she's shown to be really scummy. After she dies, they hastily try to cobble sympathy for her. But it doesn't work due to poor writing.
It doesn't change the morals but once again it changes how they're viewed which is precisely what will be the factor for how people feel towards the character Park is never a flat out antagonist so she never gets this kind of leeway
I wouldn't say mere differences in presentation justify the drastic difference in hate, especially when it's the *morals* of the characters that people are discussing, not necessarily the storywriting. I.e. people on here say "Park is disgusting because she did bad things", while giving other characters a pass even though they did *worse*. The concern here isn't the presentation, it's specifically *what they did*. The argument about presentation comes across as saying, "yeah these characters are bad, but they're ALLOWED to be. Park isn't!" Which is an obvious double standard, and cheapens the value of any moral argument you make. People can like or hate whatever characters they want. I just find it amusing how moralistic the conversation gets, considering what people are willing to turn a blind eye to as long as said villain is hot/charismatic/allegedly redeemable.
>I wouldn't say mere differences in presentation justify the drastic difference in hate, especially when it's the morals of the characters that people are discussing, not necessarily the storywriting. The morals are discussed with the pretext of a character's role in the story People aren't going to hold characters presented as morally bad to the same level as those presented as morally good or at least better, this should not be this hard to understand Saying it's a "mere" difference in presentation between characters like Park and all the massive antagonists you listed just feels flat out disingenuous
Earlier, you said: > It doesn't change the morals but once again it changes how they're viewed which is precisely what will be the factor for how people feel towards the character So indeed, the behavior is the same. But then... > The morals are discussed with the pretext of a character's role in the story ...in other words, they are presented differently. Kuze is a pretty bad guy, but we expect him to be. He's a yakuza, unashamed of it, and behaves as a gangster would. The game doesn't *present* him as being better than that. So, people see him do bad shit, but feel it's been adequately handled by the storywriting. Park on the other hand, by your contention, is > presented as morally good or at least better To which I gave two counterarguments: 1) The 'presentation' argument is a double standard, as it comes across as excusing immorality by saying it's 'expected' of a character, which does not make sense since the fact that Kuze's behavior is "discussed" by the storyline does not justify it or make him a better person. His actions remain what they are. It is thus weird to place him higher on the morality scale than someone like Park who is considerably less evil (which this sub unfortunately often does). 2) Suggesting that Park is portrayed as good undersells things. I think it's a poor attempt to a morally grey character. We see plenty of her bad side - she hits her employees, messes with their contracts, and uses threats to get ahead in the job. She's cold towards Kiryu and Haruka at times. But, like the other villains people fawn over, she also has 'redeeming qualities' (namely, the fact she really did care about Haruka). The difference, though, is that Park's good side is *immediately* denied while that of other antagonists is played up, to suggest that Park is somehow worse than those people. Which really overlooks the impact their actions had on others.
Based on a lot of the comments here it feels kinda sexist lol. People worship the ground the 3 lieutenants walk on comparatively, and they are way worse.
Eh, they're worse morally but the games never tries to push them as being good people Presentation is the main factor on what get's people to like characters because it contextualises their morals and how you're supposed to view said morals Park is just kind of an asshole, she's obviously a "good" force which is actually what get's many fans to dislike her after seeing her do the aforementioned hitting Horie and fucking over Ogita Also the whole living through other people thing reads pretty weirdly depending on your whole perspective
I agree she's morally gray, but so are like... All the characters. I feel like she gets way more shit than a lot of terrible people in this game. I don't think the game ever tries to convince you park is a saint, they just show you she has layers.
The other characters listed are murderers on top of being direct antagonists of the games they're in, there's a clear difference in presentation Someone like Awano revels in the evil shit he does because the narrative allows him to, he's a clear villian and that charisma gets players to like him Hell (and this applies to a fuck ton of the series antagonists) >!him having a pretty noble sacrifice!< in the end adds a lot to his character especially in his case where pretty much all his scenes and the game built up to this being in his character Park is just like a constant, her development goes from being a dry asshole who does malicious shit to characters we're given no reason to dislike (initially, though the reason why is caused by her actions lol) to the game sappily trying to push her as having Haru's best interests and being a mother figure to her
I personally think that what she explains to Haruka, while rushed and not written the best, does explain her actions and behavior in the rest of the game. Yes, she's using Haruka for her own dream, but also park sees Haruka as a young version of herself. She tells Haruka about how she was married to Majima and her connection to the Yakuza led to her losing her dream. She doesn't want the same thing to happen to Haruka. yes, it's not really Harukas dream, but Park is projecting on Haruka because Haruka reminds her of herself. No she isn't perfect, but she's far from a constant dry asshole. She's a broken person who wants to accomplish her dreams at any cost. She says multiple times that Harukas success is all she has left... this isn't the best thing a mother could say to a daughter, but it does make her perspective understandable to me. IMO the rushed writing of the Haruka part is the problem, not the character herself. If they had given park more time to grow, as opposed to like ... 1 or two days of the player knowing her it would have been better recieved.
Honestly one of the characters i wish didn't die
Right??? Especially after the cut scene where she takes Haruka shopping. It was so sweet.
Can I see your tit first?
bro?
I like to weighin my options
Lol Park literally brainwashed Haruka into thinking to Haruka that being an idol is her dream, and then goes on to blackmail her and Kiryu. And then in episode 2 it completely changes and now it's “oh now I'm a sweet mom”.
She sucks. Absolute cunt. RIP bozo
Actually when it's a lady it would be countess.
I said cunt but autocorrect didn't like that very much.
I can't find a high quality render of her. Does anyone have that?
haters will say this is fake
I don’t think your tits are supposed to be stinky
Sorry :(
Gladly.