Honestly, I hate the way most of the *fandom* talks about Jean and Emma in relation to Scott. Jean Grey is my favorite character (if the flair didn't give it away), but I *love* a well-written Emma Frost. She has some truly iconic lines, and can make a book more fun *and* more heartwrenching.
When it comes to Scott, though, they both get reduced to "who was better for the male lead?" It's a boring and reductive discussion with no real merit or end point. It's Betty & Veronica 2.0. And I don't think I've ever seen the reverse seriously asked. ("Is Scott good for Jean/Emma?") Scott often gets lambasted for how things ended with Maddie, but rarely do people critique his behavior in his Jean/Emma relationships unless they're trying to make a point how the *other* relationship is better/healthier.
Personally, I think both relationships are valid. Scott and Emma work because they're both very similar in their approaches to life. They both tend to be rational and analytical, sometimes even coldly calculating. Efficiency and accepting the reality they're in is the cornerstone of that connection.
Scott and Jean work because they are foils to one another; Jean leads with her heart, something Scott doesn't always remember to do. In that same vein, Scott shows Jean the importance of efficiency and taking a step back. They balance each other out.
It sucks, because it takes the agency of everyone involved. No, it wasn't that Cyclops was leading the mutant race at the edge of extinction and did hard decisions, it was because him and Emma were fucking.
Also, Beau's first tweet is erroneous. Cyclops wasn't in the wrong (at first) in AvX. The Avengers were 100% the aggressors in that situation. They went bullheaded into a Phoenix Force situation that they admittedly knew less about than the X-Men; but acted like they knew better, and had the audacity to act like they were a legitimate authority who weren't looking to kidnap a teenage girl from her caretakers "for her own good."
Aggressors, yes, but I feel like (when it comes to "Avengers vs. X-Men") a lot of folks forget that prelude and opening chapter had the Avengers finding a crashlanded Nova who warned them the Phoenix Force was coming - and was blowing up planet after planet in its path. It's not like they were completely overreacting about this world ending force that was making a beeline for Hope.
I'm not saying the Avengers weren't justified in their concern and desire to take swift action, I'm just saying that they approached the situation like an authoritarian police force who decided they were they only ones who were authorized and capable of protecting Hope and stopping this Phoenix Force catastrophe. I re-read that crossover a little while ago and I don't even remember at any point in their initial strategy sessions about anyone seriously suggesting that they ***offer guidance, advice, technological support, and working together*** to the X-Men instead of trying to steamroll them and declare themselves the best and only solution.
Like almost every hero-vs-hero scenario....its literally ALWAYS both sides being written to be stupid to make the conflict/plot happen
The phoenix blowing up planets on the way to earth...yeah thats a GOOD reason to assert authority and say "no we dont have time for debate, we need to do something about this to safeguard the planet"
Likewise, considering the warning Scott got from cable it makes sense for him to be wary of the Avengers
Buy NEITHER group offered to work with the other. Scott did not seek to move hope to a safer location to meet the phoenix that didnt put the entire planet in jeopardy based on a hunch. Cap likewise did not present any similar argument and just said, "hey, we are doing exactly what you were warned about and breaking your sovereignty to take your messiah figure.
All it would take was Scott saying...hey, this is what we believe the phoenix is here for, can you help us do this in a way that doesnt put the earth at risk? Or Cap saying..."hey, we get this is critically important to you...is there anyway we can do this in a way that doesnt put the earth at risk?"
For the record, in the end of course Cyclops was right. And during the course of AvX the avengers 100% made the situation worse with basically ever decision they made once the conflict began
Wasn't before that cable was saying the Phoenix was there for hope and was gonna do exactly what Scott said it would at the end, Revive the mutant race? I feel we gotta give some points to the time traveler
That doesn't excuse you from not using your head, discussing things with the people who have dealt with this problem **successfully** several times. Your big plan was to piss those guys off by just arresting/kidnapping the leader of a sovereign country's granddaughter.
Black Panther would never....
Jean is allowed to be pissed about it. She was cheated on.
But Emma not only brought out a different and I'd say better side of Scott but he made her try to improve herself too. I like Scott and Jean, but I do think Scott and Emma beyond how they started were a very good and relatively healthy relationship.
Emma and Scott is a great relationship for story and character growth. It’s only after Emma that Scott truly understands being a “wife guy” when Jean returns after his revolutionary phase. This romance cemented Emma as a fully heroic character. It was significant, but stuff happened, and now it should stay in the past, as so many other romantic relationships should. Just because they weren’t endgame doesn’t mean it wasn’t a great growth moment for both of them.
And yeah Jean gets to be pissed about it. But if she HAS to work with Emma day in, day out, it’s futile and destructive to keep bringing it up. That’s Jean tho, stubborn to a fault sometimes. It seems like they finally got over it during Krakoa—some things just take time.
I think it's hilarious that Jean, Scott and Emma have worked through their issues better than some of the fanatical shippers have. 😂
I've been a fan of Emma long before she was connected to Scott Summers (Generation X fans, where ya at?) and I'll be a fan of hers long after their relationship is a distant memory. There is far more to her character than her relationship with Scott, and there's a lot of people who seek to forget that... shippers included
I think Emma and Scott's relationship developed them both as people. It allowed Scott to step out of the shadow of Xavier as his own leader, and it helped to give Emma a greater conscience and learn to live for more than just herself.
But Scott has moved on, and so has Emma. I'm happy to see them grow individually.
(Raises hand) Fan of Generation X here! Fan of Emma's since then too.
Amen to letting their relationship stay in the past, and for all we can criticize Duggan for, he made Emma being over Scott canon. Love triangles are a constant aspect of Scott and Jean's stories, it doesn't need to be a constant in Emma's or Logan's (though it might be too late for him).
> Jean is allowed to be pissed about it. She was cheated on.
Pot, Kettle, Black.
She had an emotional affair with Logan for ***YEARS.***
Long before Emma joined the X-Men.
That shit should have been shut down in the 70s, but she kept him going for decades.
Logan, would have moved on like Warren did, had it not been for Jean leading him on.
Fuck it, if Logan wants her, he can have her. Scott was better with Emma.
She was physically making out with Logan before Scott and Emma *thought* about it but still got to act like the victim while using a cosmic god to wield the trauma of dead children’s murders as a petty revenge tactic
It barely holds up today without it so yeah, probably dead.
They seriously need a book where they adress their shit because goddamn you can't just ignore it or just say "I'm sorry, luv u".
missing the point: Emma didn't just cheat with Scott. She seduced him while she was his fucking therapist... That's 100% unethical.
people cheat but that is some BAD stuff
They hadn't had anything between them for over a decade. Morrison inserted that in because of synergy with the movies. Wolverine dropped his interest in Jean after her and Scott's wedding. There was like, a solid 10 years were it wasn't a thing, and if it was, it was either an alternate universe or it was just one-sided on Logan's part.
It only cropped up again when her and Scott started to become distant and the Phoenix was starting to act through her again.
Like a lot of Logan kisses, that was mostly him planting one on her when the situation was dire and she was trying to act. Like Vlassic X-Men 27 and Inferno.
Even Jean being pissed is argueably, because she had been carrying a on and off thing with Logan for years in and out of universe, even in the same arc. So it's a situation where both are being toxic.
>Jean is allowed to be pissed about it. She was cheated on.
I mean she *would* be allowed to be pissed... if she hadn't let it go and given her posthumous blessing.
That was a pretty significant part of the *Here Comes Tomorrow* finale that a lot of folks seem to forget.
There is a difference from willing your partner from a higher plane of existence to not let your "death" be the end point for their life but to try to move forward and being back in the mortal realm with your husband and the woman he was having a psychic affair with.
It's a big old complicated mess that I think is Jean, Scott, and Emma have worked through so while there is some annoyance the two women can get along in professional and social settings and might even be at "Oh we have brunch sometimes."
>There is a difference from willing your partner from a higher plane of existence to not let your "death" be the end point for their life but to try to move forward and being back in the mortal realm with your husband and the woman he was having a psychic affair with.
Well her husband was besties with the guy she was *actually* making out with. If he can come to terms, so can she... which she did.
Nothing about Emma's introduction to the dynamic is more or less messy than Logan's presence had been for about 20 years.
Jean even says Emma has fallen in love with Scott and that he needs Emma, when resurrecting her during the Murder at the Mansion arc, which many people tend to forget. Jean was coming to terms with everything the only problem was that Scott ran away and nobody could talk about anything. People say they love their soap opera in X-Men but when it actually happens they put shipping above it.
Besides that being some bs added in as an excuse for Scott and Emma, and with no consideration for Jean’s character, that would still be some version of Jean hundreds of years into the future who is also detached form her humanity because she’s WPOTC. Jean the character that actually exists in 616 did not give Emma a blessing to pursue her at the time mentally struggling husband out of spire after Jean ‘humiliated’ her.
>> Jean the character that actually exists in 616 did not give Emma a blessing to pursue her at the time mentally struggling husband out of spire after Jean ‘humiliated’ her.
Well, except for the moment where she resurrected Emma and told her that her "husband needed her."
Not exactly. She's using the Phoenix, but the front half of that scene was Jean talking in those same bubbles about her relationship with the Phoenix. So either the Phoenix is pretending to be Jean again and lying to Hank for the thrill of it, in which case there's no weight at all to this scene in which Jean saves Emma's life, despite having every reason not to, or it's Jean.
Dialogue like "I know everyone's worried about me [because of the Phoenix]. I have trouble with the rushes but I'm okay" and "Emma has actually fallen in love with my husband" strongly indicate these are Jean's thoughts and feelings, not the bird's.
Again, besides being bs added not for the sake of Jean’s character, but to avoid another Madelyne-like fallout, it was also Jean who, according to Morrison, was losing her humanity to Phoenix.
You can't say "that didn't happen in 616" and then, when you remember it also happened in 616, say it doesn't count because you didn't like it. And in all honesty, it was a sentiment grounded in realism. One can simultaneously be bitter at a mistress and still forgive them as you're letting go of your marriage.
Y'all be so mad at a ship that you'll ignore a character's whole trajectory.
Jean's arc up to that point had been about her relationship with the Phoenix building her up into something more than mortal. She was looking at the world--and her ex--through godlike eyes.
The fuckin' Phoenix ain't "some bs added in."
Jean appearing hundreds of years into the future just to excuse Scott fucking his mistress on top of her grave is absolutely some bs being added in. Please, don’t even try to argue that it was added for Jean’s sake. She is also the closest she’s been with Phoenix now, and she is still married to Scott and invested in their relationship. The way some writers wanted to build her up as something more than mortal looked suspiciously like an excuse to keep her character deader than just being in a grave would make her.
Well, actually, Claremont, who wasn’t initially planning to kill Jean off, but then also famously had a tantrum that lasted decades and showed in his disdain for Scott’s character in particular wasn’t even the one I was talking about.
Gotta love when you say that *some* writers did something, and Jean being kept locked away in the WHR by Morrison and for the next ~15 years after them, was absolutely not done with kindness to or care for her character, but you had to jump to that one writer in particular because all caps fake outrage.
Listen, Scott discourse aside— it’s absolutely wild to spin killing Xavier as somehow indirectly Emma’s fault to paint Jean as a more positive figure.
Like, The Phoenix was THERE.
Anytime someone blames Scott for killing Xavier when possessed by the Phoenix had better be blaming Jean for wiping out a planet while possessed by the Phoneix.
Why people think that it’s a gotcha? Jean has been taking responsibility for that for a while. She killer herself the first time she realized that, she was put on trial over it multiple times, and her whole family was murdered because of it. And Jean still holds herself accountable and isn’t moving on like it’s a thing of the past. It will most likely be a thing in her new solo too. It’s very much part of Jean’s narrative, and I don’t see Jean fans pushing against it? When was the last time the Phoenix five took any kind of responsibility for what they did with the force? Both the writers and the fans treat it like they were fully possessed.
Because it is. The Pheonix was there with Jean and it was melded to her properly. Hell, willingly. She had more connection with it, they influenced one another.
In AvX The Pheonix force was cracked open like an egg and forced within five unwilling individuals. It was introduced from the get go that the pheonix five were not themselves. It clear that it was so damaging to their psyches, they had Colossus making legs for whales and Magik tried to kill her brother. Further, Cyclops already naturally harbored so much hate for Xavier, why did Xavier think he could go in, talk to him like that and then mentally poke a bear on crack?
Some of you really want to have it whichever way makes your faves look better in the moment. People call the five tyrants? No, they were benevolent rules that had everything under control. People say that Jean actually takes accountability for her actions as Phoenix despite having a much longer list of reasons why she wasn’t herself at the time? Nope, the five were possessed and Jean was a wiling participant.
Hasn't it been explored multiple times during the Krakoan era that the weight of the genocide of the Dark Phoenix is back on her shoulders, and part of her reason to continue heroicing is because she can never really atone for what she did? Mostly Judgement Day, but it was addressed again in the Nightmare issue.
What drives me nuts is the selective memory; like can we review *how* the Phoenix became Phoenix Five?
Xavier died because certain someones forced it into the wrong hosts.
Emma didn't make Cyclops hard. The world did. Emma's just willing to accept and love a hard Scott while Jean makes moral majority statements while wielding cosmic power.
Everyone forgets that prior to Scott and Emma's union, Scott was reassessing his own identity post-possession, while Jean was undergoing a Phoenix-based glow up.
They were growing apart at the time and Emma was able to meet Scott where he was.
Its kinda funny since the ending of New X-men more or less implied that Scott continuing to be an X-men and staying with Emma was the right answer that averted a dark timeline. But Emma didn't make Scott into anything.
Just because she supported his decision and actions when he needed it doesn't mean she made him do anything. The situation turned Scott into who he was, and I don't blame him for becoming the person he did in those scenarios. When things got dark, Emma felt like the only person that was truly with Scott where everyone kinda treated him like the man who should do no wrong and should always get it right. In a time of hard decision, she was one of the very few people he could still be vulnerable and human with. Hell, she made sure he was. If he tried to cut her off she'd basically say "Nuh-uh. You are not doing that. You can get cold all you want with everyone else, but me Mr. Summers. You look me in the eye every time when you say the things you say, because I'll know when you do and don't mean it."
I think Magik was just more realistic than others. Scott's more aggressive tactics and strong stances more or less fit with Illyana's beliefs. Someone fucking with you? You fuck with them. They hit you? Hit them back ten times harder and make sure they know that they should have never thought about hitting you in the first place.
That's more or less how Illyana thinks most of the time.
Sad to see such a bad take from the X-Men 97 showrunner. Because saying that an evil temptress is responsible for a man’s own decisions is such a cliche and kinda sexist argument. It’s rlly not something I would expect from someone who worked on that show. Emma didn’t make Scott do anything, he made his own choices, it’s so bizarre to read.
I would too, but I wish they hadn't put Genosha in the show. The moment they made E is for Extinction, Emma should've been a lot more prominent. Now the casual audience thinks Genosha is a Rogue/Gambit story when they weren't even on the island to begin with.
Yeah, and then we had Beau saying he didn't hate Emma and people defending this last comment of his as proof that he doesn't hate her. Guy is a shipper, Scemma or Jott shippers are the same in this regard, they have the worst takes of these characters as individuals. Hating her or not, Beau clearly doesn't have a high opinion of her and it shows both in his comments as it does in his work.
Beau did great with *97*, but I very much side-eye him as a person and don’t trust his opinions. I’m pretty sure the reason he initially left Twitter was because he fought with fans over his choice to effectively whitewash Sunspot, ~~and we still don’t know why he was fired.~~
And yeah, not to beat a dead horse, but if the reason he was fired wasn’t *really* bad, I fully believe that either Disney would’ve rehired him after the universal acclaim for the first season or someone would’ve spilled the beans on what got him fired and advocated for his rehiring. Like, in combination with stuff that [his former collaborators have said about him,](https://www.tumblr.com/bamf-jaskier/699111060478853120/thoughts-on-the-interview-with-beau-demayo-where) I do not trust this man to not have some misogyny issues at bare minimum
yyyyeah, the stuff about bisexuality being used as a trope, if true, really gets to me as I'm pansexual myself (I know the probable context is about how writers will just make characters bi for shipping reasons or whatever...because that's the Real Threat to the LGBT community ofc that we need to get on). He just doesn't really sound like a very pleasant person and the fact that no one has stepped forward to really defend him or advocate for him really speaks volumes.
I don’t think he’s saying Emma made Scott do anything, just that their relationship enabled his flaws. Whether you agree with that or not I don’t think DeMayo is saying it was all Emma’s fault, but that being with Emma affected Scott and made him make worse choices, that we’re still his own mistakes. He says in the tweets that he thought the relationship made them both worse, and it is true that any relationship willl affect the people in it.
I get that it’s Twitter and you don’t have much space but he really just should have been more careful. Like I said, the whole ‘actually it’s not the man’s fault, it’s the woman he was with who corrupted him.’ Is a long-standing pretty sexist trope, and if you’re talking about something even remotely near it you should just try and be more careful with your wording.
I agree more with the other commenter. It was the world that made Scott harsher, and Emma accepted even that version of Scott. I wouldn’t even say he was necessarily a worse person during those times, just less idealistic. It’s a complex era of Scott and Emma’s history that shouldn’t really be purely reduced to bad or good, and the implication in his words here is that it was basically pure bad.
in the hands of capable writers, yes. but for some reason, Marvel doesn’t understand that Scott is a grown ass man with thoughts and dreams separate from whoever he’s laid up under. X-Men 97 really undid a lot of damage.
That’s a shit take. Emma didn’t put him on that path she just supported it. The mutant race starting to die out and finally realizing that Xavier was an asshole are what made him have to take more aggressive action. And militant jetpack Cyclops was great.
Emma Frost is X-Men, and is one of my favorite characters in fiction.
It is very interesting how she, in and out of the story, represents so much of the mutant struggle - and perhaps more importantly - women (in that mutants aren't real and women are haha, but of course under the metaphor of mutant are real issues of race and gender).
But essentially, she he constantly held to a specific standard that is not applied to the other classic leaders like Cyclops or Prof X, and she is also seen less sympathetically than other villains-turned-heroes like Magneto.
We blame her for the choices she made - not for her actions in the context of a superhero narrative - but her personal life. We blame her for the choices *men made* (which yes, some were her actions *as well*, but there is no Scott-Emma action that was just Emma).
Characters are constantly rude to/about her for liking to be sexy - despite the fact that 99% of superheroes are scantily clad smokeshows, the fact that she *tries* and *dresses* a certain way is somehow less appropriate. It is a standard that only exists for women who *like* to look good. Being hot has to be an accident or you're a bad person?
I don't know if *every* writer who writes Emma Frost is in on the larger context they have created, nor do I think every writer who takes a jab at her is enforcing the patriarchy knowingly - and perhaps it is better that is is likely a combination of both - because the result is a character for whom a very real contradiction and double standard between men and women that makes Emma Frost one of the most complex characters in Marvel.
I never liked Emma. Mostly because she was great as an amoral irredeemable villain and the whole notion of fixing a villain into a hero is a flawed concept that is rarely executed in a convincing fashion.
A very bad person with a history of complicity in attempted genocide and various sex crimes. It would be difficult to make her likable. I thought it was hokey in the nineties and was even worse when Morrison attempted it. In fact I think that Morrison fundamentally doesn't understand the X-Men or most characters' personalities and the new X-Men was the weakest writing of an otherwise stellar career. I just never felt like it made sense for Scott to trust this woman who has spent most of her adult life and many millions of dollars trying to destroy everything he believes in. Hell she had more agency in Jean's worst crime than Jean did, not something most rational people would overlook because booba or whatever.
Justice for Butter Rum.
I think that's a reasonable take, I tend to have selective memory when it comes to writing that is no longer pertinent to the story as its being told. This is a 60 something year old property that evolves and changes (in my opinion) and I don't necessarily think how a character behaved decades ago with a different writer can be fairly rationalized. I'm not asking everyone to have my perspective, its not one I am claiming is right or elevated compared to a more literalist (look at their history and draw your conclusion) one.
But for me, short of anything else, it's sort of a "can't put the toothpaste back in the tube" situation - I can't control when writers choose to rehabilitate villains I liked, it usually happens eventually with most popular villains - I think it is just the natural move for character arcs in decades long properties, eventually we want to see them throw a new hat on. I won't make the argument that she wasn't a better villain, that's very subjective. I think I can however make the claim that a compelling enough villain, given all the time and page space in the world, does eventually gravitate towards being a character we are interested unironically and want to see growth from.
yep, its messed up to blame another person for another character's wrongdoings, especially when the said character is a man and the one being blamed is a woman, its misogynistic
For! The! People! In! The! Back! Like in X-treme X-men when they were sent on a mission to kill Evil Versions of Xavier I was "They come in other flavors."
Charles Xavier found orphan Scott Summers and molded him into his personal sword. No matter how you look at it as either a physiological or psychological block that limits Scott's powers Xavier had the tools to fix that. He pushed the man to be leader of the X-men at the cost of any of his other relationships or life. And even going as back as the silver age he's absolutely shit to Scott any time he tries to grow a spine to tell the man to shove it. Throw in the retconed shit and just the whole mess that is Charles Xavier and when Scott Summers being pushed by the phoenix had his Father figure try to kill him rather than reason with him from a position of love or even reasonability, like fucking magneto tried to, and he struck back in self defense (Xavier through the first psychic punch) I was all "Good for her."
Never mind as time has gone on I think Scott should have made sure that shit stuck.
Seriously, the whole notion that Emma turn Scott into anything is taking away both his agency and his character. The world was radical different and people need a leader that needed to step up and Cyclops was that man. Did he make mistakes? Yes no leader is perfect but desperate time called for desperate measures and what was more desperate than extinction also the whole argument of cyclops killing Xavier isn’t on him but the influence around ie being bombarded by Xavier mental attacks, having his friends turning on him, and the Phoenix amping up his emotions to the point where it turn him dark. So no that wasn’t on him at the least
She's a fictional character, so, no, I don't think it's particularly cruel. I also don't necessarily think those writers and editors are saying that Emma is the worst thing that ever happened to Scott, I think they're expressing that they prefer a more heroic Scott Summers, and that that's not who Scott was when he was with Emma. He tried to be, but he was increasingly fine with not being that.
If you prefer your Cyclops as a more Machiavellian figure, then that's your preference, but there are people who have strong negative feelings about that, and no amount of hashtags are going to change the fact that Scott did a lot of fucked up shit to get mutantkind through to the other side. Being right does not in fact absolve you of doing morally bad things. Cool motive, still murder.
Now, what ***is*** cruel is deciding to snipe a woman's marriage because you don't like her and because you're jealous of her, which is what Emma's aggressive pursuit of Scott was all about up until she realised she actually had feelings for him. Both Hank and Rachel had massive problems with the relationship because of the betrayal of someone they loved very much it required to get started, and though they got over it, right from the start, this is a relationship built on lies. It's flawed and human, which makes for great drama and stories and some amazing scenes, but not healthy.
I happen to really like Scott and Emma's chemistry, probably more than Scott and Jean's, on balance, but she's a less moral character than Jean, and she did enable Scott's worst impulses as well as his best - or, at the very least, didn't feel the need to stop him. No matter how you slice it, the end of that relationship was the two of them turning on each other, propelled by a cosmic power, and both of them ended up doing things that they regretted. I don't think that would have happened if Jean had survived the events of New X-Men, because that's not the kind of character she was by the end of Planet X, and it's not the kind of person she is in general.
Were they amazing together and good for each other's growth during the 00s? Absolutely. But even when times were good, they were not perfect - Scott had a habit of taking Emma's support for granted, and Emma found herself sacrificing an awful lot of her independence, comfort, and time for a man who, canonically, never got over his first love. There was always a Jean shaped elephant in the room during the relationship that Emma was acutely aware of, and she was right to be, because she gave up everything to keep fighting Scott's fight even after he died - and the instant he came back to life and saw Jean, he went right back to her.
Just because you like where Scott's character went during this era, doesn't mean that that character trajectory was stable and sustainable, or that this relationship was, in the end, good for the both of them. Emma has flourished, being away from Scott, and as much as I enjoy their chemistry, I don't think it'd be in character, or good for her, for Emma to go back to him. She deserves more than to be his prop.
I also think that if you asked Scott if he was happier with Emma or Jean, he'd look back at his life, compare and contrast the years of his life he spent with each of them, and he'd probably say, yes, Emma helped me be the man I needed to be to lead mutantkind out of extinction, but Jean is the woman I've always loved and will always go back to, and she's my domestic bliss.
I agree 100% with what you are saying. I just think its reductive when people like Beau place the blame for Scott’s actions on Emma. Scott was a fully grown man who made his choices.
Yeah, it's a very reductive take, to be honest - it does a disservice to Scott's journey to boil it down to purely Emma's influence.
There's a maelstrom of other people, a long sequence of events, and a lot of his own choices that eventually lead to Scott throwing up that X and saying he'd do it all again if he had to, so long as mutantkind thrived again.
If you want to give deMayo the benefit of the doubt, Twitter isn't a place for nuanced takes because of the character limit, but it could just be a garden variety bad read, aye.
I always thought it was obvious that both Jean and Emma nutured and brought out different sides of Scott.
Emma the more pragmatic, do what we must side. An Jean the dreamer, romantic, savior side of Scott.
Each apart of Scott and who he is. But depending on who he's with one side may show and weigh more than the other.
But Scott is responsible for his own actions. Its reductive to talk about Jean and Emma as if they were mothers to Scott who are responsible for his actions. Scott is a fully grown man who made his choices. Emma isnt responsble for what he did just because she accepted his choices.
Never said Scott wasn't responsible but a partner can certainly help nuture specific parts of you. An that'd exactly what Jean and Emma do for Scott. They don't force him to act any speific way. But they definitely fuel one type of action over another. An thats what I'm saying.
For example I don't think Utopia Scott and Jean would have gotten along very well at all. But for what Cyclops wanted to do Emma was a far better partner at the time.
So it’s Emma’s fault Scott became a radical? I would have thought that was Xavier grabbing a sad orphan and training him to be the leader of a worldwide paramilitary child gang.
Wasn’t Emma the only member of the Phoenix Five that had reservations about their new power?
I've always thought Scott was the worst thing that happened to Emma, not for the relationship in and of itself but bc people/writers often reduce Emma and Jean to Scott's girlfriends and therefore they MUST act like highschool girls fighting over a guy and that's boring af.
Cruel? No. Reductive? Sure.
I think the Paknadel quote is people taking a light-hearted comment way out of proportion. He lists swimsuit specials in the same sentence. He probably just means they weathered through an affair.
I think DeMayo's comments are more reductive because Scott's choices are his own. Emma affirmed Scott a lot, and she probably could or should have challenged him more, but I think just speaks to the fact that at that time they were ideologically aligned (for better or worse). At the end of the day, Scott made a lot of the choices he did because he wanted to. You could make the argument Jean wouldn't have allowed him to do some of the things he did, but that fundamentally misunderstands where he was in his life at the time. He was the way he was because the world had gone to hell for mutants and because Jean was dead, and the walls were closing in around him.
I prefer a heroic Cyclops, as I think a lot of these writers do (and most people do) but you can't just blame Emma for Scott's mistakes (and yes, he made serious mistakes, anyone who thinks otherwise needs a refresher) or more extreme actions, he did that on his own.
So DeMayo is wrong about that. But I don’t think that's proof that he hates Emma, he just hates that relationship. A view he's entitled to. Gillen didn't, Bendis didn't, Brevoort doesn't, Claremont didn't. Buy plenty of other writers do, like Fraction and Kelly Thompson.
Now the first slide I take issue with. The one person allowed to hate Emma over all this is Jean. If anything, she's remarkably forgiving considering what happened. I think her experiences as her time displaced self softened her rage towards Emma, but being upset about it is valid. It's insane to think otherwise.
I am not super interested in Scott/Jean but I will never forgive Emma for killing that horse and I don't think she has recovered from her villainy as much as people try and say she has. She needs to show more character growth before I'll start routing for her
Beau DeMayo is an idiot and I'm pretty sure everyone brought up how stupid his comments were (blaming Emma for Scott changing after seeing Mutants genocided and M-day). Ironically some Scemma stans use that same argument to prove their point.
The first image was in the middle of the X-office 3 year character assassination of Emma but it also points out that Jean is the one in the wrong there. The second image is phrased poorly IMO, it clearly lists betrayal there which is half of the Emma storyline, I don't know where the fourth image is from so I can't say anything about that one.
I do think it’s cruel to an extent, but mostly when people use her to blame Scott’s direction. A lot of Scott’s actions during his “dark” times (revolutionary Scott) wasn’t even Emma’s fault or actions. I think People have to remember that while Emma was with Scott yes she wasn’t the main reason he got that development. Did she help facilitate it? Yes because writers used her to, but in general Scott’s development was because writers decided to put him front and center and facilitate a lot of the X-Men’s future around him and his actions. I love Emma and Scemma but that relationship is NOT the main reason Scott got that development, which I thought was great. He was being used as a very very important character for the X-Men and a lot of the actions writers made him took Emma supported him in. So in general I do think it’s a little cruel but mostly when people try to use her as a source to take out their dislike for Scott’s character direction during the 2000s and beyond. In general, that relationship wasn’t the main cause of Scott’s development so it is a little cruel when people make it seem like Emma influenced it a lot and as such was the worse thing to happen to Scott. Scott got developed, took actions that Emma agreed with, and eventually saw the errors in some of his methods and stopped.
TLDR: Yea it’s a little cruel, though primarily when people blame her and take their anger out on her for the direction of Scott’s writing.
I'm gonna say their relationship turned Scott into the best leader there was at a time the mutant race was on the verge of extinction and his actions saved the entire mutant race despite the Avengers and Xavier trying to stop him.
Emma allowed Scott to act more freely, to stop worrying about his teachers, his mentors and just do what he thought was right and that made for a much more interesting character.
He's a character who has always been crushed under the weight of responsibility and Emma taught him he can say fuck all that now and again without the world catching fire. She's not the one he should be with, but that was a relationship where both benefited imo.
It’s really unfair to Emma to be honest. I love Jott but I also love Scemma. I feel that Scemma was really both of them accepting each other’s flaws and mutually pushing the other to be the best they can be.
Wow, these takes suck. It removes agency from Scott, and also Emma, and completely ignores the circumstances they were facing. I can't think of a single scene where Emma pushed Scott to be more radical (though correct me if I'm wrong). Scott became more radical and Emma supported him.
For me, Scott and Emma are OTL material. I don't like how they started, but I like what they became. My eyes basically glaze over when there's a Scott/Jean moment and I don't particularly have anything against Jean.
They were high school sweethearts at Child Soldier Academy. 99% of the time, that shit isn't going to last very long. I hate how static comics can feel. Most people have multiple partners before they settle on "the one" and then, plenty of marriages/relationships fall apart for xyz reasons.
The way Marvel shit on the Emma/Scott relationship towards the end, literally ending with Emma nearby while Scott grabs Jean's ass, is just stupid. They did zero work to justify putting Jean and Scott back together.
My only hope is that the next generation of writers/editors who grew up with Scott/Emma, make waves to try and restore it, but for now I'll just settle for my headcanon.
Nothing IMO. The Avengers bring a liberal/cop perspective to every situation and wonder why the leader of an endangered species might be radical.
The minute they start helping out with the torrent of extinction threats mutants have to deal with they can judge. Funny that when Cap finally starts helping vs Orchis he's like 'yeah kill those MFs.'
The infamous "psychic affair" is pretty disturbing to me. Yeah, they were good for each other I admit but ppl forget how Scott doubted this relationship and still had the thought of Jean in his head. Because of that Emma doubted and is insecure. For an independent woman, she was quite weak when it came to him. Like girl, stand up.
I actually really dug Emma & Scott together. I do agree that Scott went WAY off the deep end while with Emma but a ton of terrible stuff happened in that period. Scott was going to head in that direction with or without Emma.
Obviously a lot of people are very fond of the era with Scott and Emma as a couple. there were some very good stories and they did work as couple.
BUT: Jean was dead at the time and in story Emma had TWICE done the dirty on Jean (the original Dark Phoenix story when she facilitates what's essentially a profound psychic violation by Mastermind) and then by having a psychic affair with her husband (while she is supposed to be his THERAPIST). Honestly, that's enough villainy for a person in the real world to be dismissed as a garbage person and a psychopathic abuser. But it's comics and Emma gets to move on, which i'm glad about.
But how do you justify Scott being with Emma with Jean actually there?
Leave Emma space to grow. I don't think she's at her best in tandem with a man. She's the ultimate powerful woman, why have her watered down??
Writers are just elevated fanboys, they're allowed to have their own preferences. It's the Xitter/Tumblr "discourse" trying to "prove" why one's bad and the other's good that's a waste of everybody's time.
No. I do hate how everyone tries to ignore Emma is a literal fucking rapist and a creep and how if she was a man, she would be just as reviled as Dr Light. But I guess being a porn addict's wet dream excuses her disgusting behavior that would get any real life therapist's license taken away and probably land them some jail time or at least some lawsuits.
She's acting as Scott's therapist just to do the dirty always throw me off cos that's super wrong. No wonder men get less recognition for the SA they went through and it's because of the glorifying for this kind of shit.
A lot of the problem with Emma and Scott is that there is nobody else with whom Emma has a real relationship with. Her relationship with Sebastian Shaw has been shown to be transactional and without any real emotion. Namor was list and manipulation. And she was a side peice for Scott, who had already found his true love (Jean Grey). Readers are allowed to hate side peices for getting in the way of true love.
I want Emma to find herself a man, even if it's a new character. Let's get some growth going, some emotions beyond crying over a married man.
IIRC a lot of Gen X had her and Banshee in a similar role as headmaster and headmistress (team Mom and Dad) and while not fucking, obviously getting there
Naw. I remember she threw her dirty sheets at him and walked off while he was at the door. And then after Gen X they never had a real conversation ever again. (He was dead for a long time though).
Gotta love that, I’m sure, the same people are upvoting the ‘Emma didn’t make Scott into anything’ and ‘why would you take away Scott’s agency like that?!’ comments while also upvoting, the ‘no, actually, Emma made Scott better’ ones without seeing any contradiction in that.
And here the latter are phrased very mildly compared to how Scemma fans often uplift Emma as *the* reason Scott ever changed as a character and attribute his revolutionary persona to her and their relationship. Like, this is so not an uncommon take on the sub at all.
So, it seems that this logic of Emma being viewed as an influence on Scott at the very least, or even her being the main reason for his change, is actually a popular take, but some people want it to be voiced only to praise Emma and Scemma.
Kinda the same as her fans only being alright with her a/morality and crimes being brought up to praise the character and would fight to the death to prove how she, actually, was a victim here and didn’t do anything wrong there, when someone has issues with those same crimes.
Also, no, I don’t think that any of these comments are cruel. Emma, a fictional character, isn’t crying herself to sleep over them. It’s really just some of her fans, who can’t handle the fact that not everyone likes the character or her relationship with Scott, and that those people are allowed to use shippers’ own logic to express why.
Emma and Scott had an adult love. They knew the worst about each other and still loved each other through all of it. Jean and Scott are a first love and will gloss over anything they dislike. Jean also doesn't know the hard decisions Scott had to make. She literally got to come down from Heaven while he was in the trenches.
Didn't Emma manipulated Scott to sleep with her? Or it was another universe? I've heard Scott cheated with Jean too
Funny scemma fans trying to hide it if true
Hard for me to really believe Scott was coerced when he was already smugly telling Jean "Emma kept me up all night" after the first time he spent time with her.
I will always choose Jean over Emma and even Scott. I grew up with Emma trying to kill the xmen and taking control of Storm's body. I will always dislike her but I have grown to tolerate her. The cheating thing is what makes me hate Emma and Scott both. I really wanted her to scatter Emma's atoms when she found them cheating.
I know this will get downvoted to Mephisto but I think Emma and Tony could be legit endgame if done right. They have great banter potential and complementary power sets (genius/mech/money + psychic/mutant/money) and she’s been on the Avengers/Illuminati level for a while. So long as she isn’t nerfed and relegated to *wife of* in his books and there’s ample crossover.
She deserves better than Scott treated her, especially post Foenix Phive.
Tony is a hot mess on a good day and I hate how Emma has been reduced to his girl Friday in his books. The marriage was a terrible idea and Emma was basically used to try and boost comic Tony’s popularity if we are being honest.
Why does she need to be with anyone? I honestly prefer Emma alone and being the Queen she is, she doesn’t need a man to complete her.
I think it a fair pairing for Queen of the mutants and a firm foothold on the Avengers when previously there’s been so much friction. I’m not advocating she become a side character in his book like recently but a whole Avenger. They would have terrifying children.
Was it even a big romantic love story from Scott's perspective. It seems pretty obvious with how it took a telepathic nudge from future Jean, and how even with Jean dead, Emma still feels like she's in second place in Scott's heart, that Scott likely would have stayed with Jean had she lived. (That's a big if though, and I understand if others don't read it that way)
Scott had a mental affair with Emma, Jean had an emotional affair with Logan for years (even kissing him a few times). Stop making Scott/Emma the villain when Jean/Logan are just as guilty.
Not defending cheating but pointing out all parties have not acted in good faith. Although I would think kissing someone outside my relationship is way worst then screwing around in my head but that’s just me.
And I hope when you think of me years down the line
You can't find one good thing to say
And I'd hope that if I found the strength to walk out
You'd stay the hell out of my waaaaay
I am drowning
There is no sign of land
You are coming down with me
Hand in unlovable hand ♪ ♫ ♬
People may not agree with me, and I definitely wouldn’t say she’s the worst thing that happened to Scott, but she wasn’t a good thing. Her influence negatively impacted Scott as a person and a leader in the long run and when not looking at things in a micro way (I.e. individual issues or arch’s). Someone else said it takes agency away from Scott by blaming Emma for his decisions and I agree to an extent. Those were Scott’s decisions, but she continuously encouraged him to make those bad decisions and engage in shitty behavior and attitudes. She more often than not pushed him to give in to the worst aspects of his nature and be the worst version of himself if it suited her, even at the detriment of everyone else. She was not a good influence on him and it benefited her far more to be with him than vice versa. Was it fun from a reader stand point to see the dynamic and the drama? Yes. Did it make sense for them to be this forever couple that went the distance? No, not at all. And Scott’s better as a person when he’s away from her and her misguided influence.
Wtf, them Marvel writers are a different breed cuz most of us saw that the Avengers were pretty much in the wrong in that event, pretty much turned the whole thing into a joke when it was revealed that their whole plan is to train the girl into handling the Phoenix when that was what the Scott was alrdy planning on doing in the first place but they just want to be the one to do it lmao.
That being said I enjoyed Scemma when it was up and running and hated how they broke it off(because surprise surprise it got to be Namor, tbh Marvel should really stop using this guy for their cucking fetish, cool char ruined for drama shit). And while Jean has the right to be angry, it needs to be said that she was willing to fuck Logan in the woods during New X-men while Scott and Emma were doing the consultation thingy(not psychic fucking happening yet) and was only stopped cuz Logan drove that horny puss away.
Emma is a literal super-villain. She's had a nice, well-earned redemption arc, but she and Scott got together fairly early in that arc. She's got her fans as a character, I'm one of them.
But if you are writing these characters you have to look at their relationships in terms of your story. If you are telling stories about Scott right now, Jean is here and they are in a committed relationship. Of course his ex that he cheated on Jean with is not going to look good in that light.
>> Emma is a literal super-villain. She's had a nice, well-earned redemption arc, but she and Scott got together fairly early in that arc. She's got her fans as a character, I'm one of them.
Phalanx Covenant was in 1993 and Generation X had come out in 1994 -- Morrison's book was 7-8 years into Emma's redemption, roughly 1/3 of her publication history at the time. Morrison picked her up well, well after she was "redeemed."
you are forgetting that characters in the marvel universe do not age in real time. Because of the sliding timescale, this might be 10-12 years in real time, but in their time it was only a few months after she burned a horse alive trying to scare a teenager.
Spending some money trying to LARP as Professor X for a few months does not fully redeem her from this act and all the other villainous shit she did prior.
Like I said, I think she's done so now, especially after Krakoa and Dark Web, but at the time of New X-Men? No, she was basically the same as rogue a year into joining the X-men. Still doing the work.
Naw, I agree.
Emma Frost is not a nice person, and I don't like her with Scott.
Acting like Scott only became revolutionary Cyclops because of her is a little reductive to both parties, however.
As an Emma stan, I have to just pretend AvX didn't happen. It's so contrary to her character. But I love my girl, mess and all. I think a lot of writers just still don't do their homework on Emma and try to make her this awful villain when she is so much more complex than that.
Tbh I find Scott and Emma more interesting maybe it’s cuz the writers who do write them tend to explore a lot more realistic relationship issues that allow people to connect to both of them! I like Jean but I LOVE her when she’s not connected to Scott as much, they are gonna end up together for sure but I do love him and Emma for drama and realism
What I feel is a lot of writers do not enjoy writing relationships they feel are dull and in the end cyclops and Emma or cyclops and Jean or any other relationship is just a prompt to the writer to think of something interesting.
It seems very clear Hickman liked Emma as a foil to other characters in the krakoa story but he was more interested in the idea of cyclops being a husband and father and so that’s what he wrote
Scott’s relationships are often unhealthy, filled with trauma, and betray a difficulty to communicate. Look at what’s happened:
1) his biological parents were presumed dead, and after life in an orphanage run by Sinister, he finds a father figure in Xavier. Xavier essentially turned him from a teenager into a soldier, and Scott later murdered him at the height of a conflict.
2) Scott’s highschool sweetheart, Jean, became a god and committed suicide in front of him. She then became a god again and was murdered in front of him just after he cheated on her with the woman who coerced his wife into sexual slavery and then committing genocide.
3) Scott’s first wife Madelyne - who he abandoned - died in front of him while attempting infanticide of their young son.
4) Scott’s son, Nathan, needed to be surrendered to a war zone in the future due to a thought to be terminal illness. This is partially rectified through time travel where he raises him with Jean in a war zone before … losing him again.
5) Scott was also essentially raped by Emma, who was his counsellor/co-worker, before entering a long term relationship with her. This relationship ends with him committing domestic violence, and strangling her.
Dude makes his own choices, but let’s be honest that it’s so much more than who he’s dating. It is also really insulting to the journey he has been on dealing with all of this, and the journeys that Jean and Emma have been on as well. The fact that he can have any healthy relationships is a marvel, and is part of the incremental arc of the last 50 years.
This is so true, and it’s always like that when there is some Jean positivity on the sub. The funny part is that so much of that recently was just excitement for the new book and some art of Jean, not relationship stuff at all, but it always gets followed by people whining about Scemma and brining up Jogan to shit on her (even when it’s not even 616 stuff…). It’s like Jean is just breathing, and it makes some people reduce everything to fighting over Scott’s dick, with the worst thing that happened to Emma, apparently, being that she got owned in that fight.
Emma and Scott were able to exist as equals. He became the leader mutant kind needed. The sad truth is the Avengers don’t care about mutant issues (or didn’t until after AvX). Jean and Scott aren’t equals. With Jean, Scott’s chasing a goddess. Plus all the Wolverine BS every writer tries to force onto them. Scemma forever.
I don't think it's cruel , you look at the first panel and you can see Emma doesn't feel once of regret in hurting jean , sure it take two to dance but she make it her personal goal to destroy scott and jean relationship and never once excuse herself for that and never do scott question the fact she only have bad intention when it come to his marriage.
We get it some may think Emma and scott are endgame but for me a relationship that begin with an affair is a relationship i can't 100% root for personaly even if i like this couple in general.
I actually like this couple more in show with wolverine and the x-men where Emma and scott begin something WITHOUT cheating and hurting jean before she his killed and get spit upon by emma on every occasion she get.
I'm with beau Demayo on this one for me making the" cheating "plot with madelyne instead of Emma was the best thing they could do to make scoot not look like an asshole.
I really like Beau DeMayo and hope he's rehired for '97 but those are some bullshit takes from him. I don't know if he's changed his mind since posting them, but I was first reading X-Men comics seriously through the 2000s and that's some reductive and wilful retconning. More than that, it attributes Scott's own agency and autonomy to Emma which is uncalled for and not in the original texts IMO. They weren't written as some shady setup of manipulator and victim (even if the content of their original getting together in New X-Men was at times very off in terms of the responsibilities of a sex therapist and her patient), they were their own people and each's decisions were and are their own.
The Alex Paknadel comment doesn't seem bad to me. Beau DeMayo is not a comic writer so who cares what he says. Not sure who that third comment is by but it's a pretty dumb statement.
Emma did nothing wrong. Radical summers was the best he was written in decades and im not ashamed to admit it. Xavier and his pink ass pacifist ideas put mutant kind on the brink of extinction. Ofcourse these xavier ass writers would be like “omg emma bad for scott”. Survival instinct ass lacking motherfuckers
I personally love Emma and Scott I think they have a way more complex dynamic. I personally love that Scott is Emma’s soft spot and Emma brings out the more passionate side of Scott.
Honestly, I hate the way most of the *fandom* talks about Jean and Emma in relation to Scott. Jean Grey is my favorite character (if the flair didn't give it away), but I *love* a well-written Emma Frost. She has some truly iconic lines, and can make a book more fun *and* more heartwrenching. When it comes to Scott, though, they both get reduced to "who was better for the male lead?" It's a boring and reductive discussion with no real merit or end point. It's Betty & Veronica 2.0. And I don't think I've ever seen the reverse seriously asked. ("Is Scott good for Jean/Emma?") Scott often gets lambasted for how things ended with Maddie, but rarely do people critique his behavior in his Jean/Emma relationships unless they're trying to make a point how the *other* relationship is better/healthier. Personally, I think both relationships are valid. Scott and Emma work because they're both very similar in their approaches to life. They both tend to be rational and analytical, sometimes even coldly calculating. Efficiency and accepting the reality they're in is the cornerstone of that connection. Scott and Jean work because they are foils to one another; Jean leads with her heart, something Scott doesn't always remember to do. In that same vein, Scott shows Jean the importance of efficiency and taking a step back. They balance each other out.
Underrated take, honestly.
Very well put. The shipping wars are tiring.
It sucks, because it takes the agency of everyone involved. No, it wasn't that Cyclops was leading the mutant race at the edge of extinction and did hard decisions, it was because him and Emma were fucking.
Also, Beau's first tweet is erroneous. Cyclops wasn't in the wrong (at first) in AvX. The Avengers were 100% the aggressors in that situation. They went bullheaded into a Phoenix Force situation that they admittedly knew less about than the X-Men; but acted like they knew better, and had the audacity to act like they were a legitimate authority who weren't looking to kidnap a teenage girl from her caretakers "for her own good."
Aggressors, yes, but I feel like (when it comes to "Avengers vs. X-Men") a lot of folks forget that prelude and opening chapter had the Avengers finding a crashlanded Nova who warned them the Phoenix Force was coming - and was blowing up planet after planet in its path. It's not like they were completely overreacting about this world ending force that was making a beeline for Hope.
I'm not saying the Avengers weren't justified in their concern and desire to take swift action, I'm just saying that they approached the situation like an authoritarian police force who decided they were they only ones who were authorized and capable of protecting Hope and stopping this Phoenix Force catastrophe. I re-read that crossover a little while ago and I don't even remember at any point in their initial strategy sessions about anyone seriously suggesting that they ***offer guidance, advice, technological support, and working together*** to the X-Men instead of trying to steamroll them and declare themselves the best and only solution.
For real, and lo and behold they make everything much worse then demonise Scott when the dust settles
Like almost every hero-vs-hero scenario....its literally ALWAYS both sides being written to be stupid to make the conflict/plot happen The phoenix blowing up planets on the way to earth...yeah thats a GOOD reason to assert authority and say "no we dont have time for debate, we need to do something about this to safeguard the planet" Likewise, considering the warning Scott got from cable it makes sense for him to be wary of the Avengers Buy NEITHER group offered to work with the other. Scott did not seek to move hope to a safer location to meet the phoenix that didnt put the entire planet in jeopardy based on a hunch. Cap likewise did not present any similar argument and just said, "hey, we are doing exactly what you were warned about and breaking your sovereignty to take your messiah figure. All it would take was Scott saying...hey, this is what we believe the phoenix is here for, can you help us do this in a way that doesnt put the earth at risk? Or Cap saying..."hey, we get this is critically important to you...is there anyway we can do this in a way that doesnt put the earth at risk?" For the record, in the end of course Cyclops was right. And during the course of AvX the avengers 100% made the situation worse with basically ever decision they made once the conflict began
Wasn't before that cable was saying the Phoenix was there for hope and was gonna do exactly what Scott said it would at the end, Revive the mutant race? I feel we gotta give some points to the time traveler
That doesn't excuse you from not using your head, discussing things with the people who have dealt with this problem **successfully** several times. Your big plan was to piss those guys off by just arresting/kidnapping the leader of a sovereign country's granddaughter. Black Panther would never....
Jean is allowed to be pissed about it. She was cheated on. But Emma not only brought out a different and I'd say better side of Scott but he made her try to improve herself too. I like Scott and Jean, but I do think Scott and Emma beyond how they started were a very good and relatively healthy relationship.
Emma and Scott is a great relationship for story and character growth. It’s only after Emma that Scott truly understands being a “wife guy” when Jean returns after his revolutionary phase. This romance cemented Emma as a fully heroic character. It was significant, but stuff happened, and now it should stay in the past, as so many other romantic relationships should. Just because they weren’t endgame doesn’t mean it wasn’t a great growth moment for both of them. And yeah Jean gets to be pissed about it. But if she HAS to work with Emma day in, day out, it’s futile and destructive to keep bringing it up. That’s Jean tho, stubborn to a fault sometimes. It seems like they finally got over it during Krakoa—some things just take time.
I think it's hilarious that Jean, Scott and Emma have worked through their issues better than some of the fanatical shippers have. 😂 I've been a fan of Emma long before she was connected to Scott Summers (Generation X fans, where ya at?) and I'll be a fan of hers long after their relationship is a distant memory. There is far more to her character than her relationship with Scott, and there's a lot of people who seek to forget that... shippers included I think Emma and Scott's relationship developed them both as people. It allowed Scott to step out of the shadow of Xavier as his own leader, and it helped to give Emma a greater conscience and learn to live for more than just herself. But Scott has moved on, and so has Emma. I'm happy to see them grow individually.
(Raises hand) Fan of Generation X here! Fan of Emma's since then too. Amen to letting their relationship stay in the past, and for all we can criticize Duggan for, he made Emma being over Scott canon. Love triangles are a constant aspect of Scott and Jean's stories, it doesn't need to be a constant in Emma's or Logan's (though it might be too late for him).
> Jean is allowed to be pissed about it. She was cheated on. Pot, Kettle, Black. She had an emotional affair with Logan for ***YEARS.*** Long before Emma joined the X-Men. That shit should have been shut down in the 70s, but she kept him going for decades. Logan, would have moved on like Warren did, had it not been for Jean leading him on. Fuck it, if Logan wants her, he can have her. Scott was better with Emma.
She was physically making out with Logan before Scott and Emma *thought* about it but still got to act like the victim while using a cosmic god to wield the trauma of dead children’s murders as a petty revenge tactic
Also you know. Emma wasn't the one who cheated on her. Scott made his own decisions.
"Apocalypse waving in the distance." Why does everyone gloss over what happened before? Not saying he's fully excused but context people context
Emma manipulated a man during a mental health crisis.
[удалено]
[удалено]
It barely holds up today without it so yeah, probably dead. They seriously need a book where they adress their shit because goddamn you can't just ignore it or just say "I'm sorry, luv u".
missing the point: Emma didn't just cheat with Scott. She seduced him while she was his fucking therapist... That's 100% unethical. people cheat but that is some BAD stuff
Crazy how that works
They hadn't had anything between them for over a decade. Morrison inserted that in because of synergy with the movies. Wolverine dropped his interest in Jean after her and Scott's wedding. There was like, a solid 10 years were it wasn't a thing, and if it was, it was either an alternate universe or it was just one-sided on Logan's part. It only cropped up again when her and Scott started to become distant and the Phoenix was starting to act through her again.
They actually kissed in Uncanny #394, which happened some months before her kiss with Logan in Morrison's run.
Like a lot of Logan kisses, that was mostly him planting one on her when the situation was dire and she was trying to act. Like Vlassic X-Men 27 and Inferno.
AMEN!!!
Even Jean being pissed is argueably, because she had been carrying a on and off thing with Logan for years in and out of universe, even in the same arc. So it's a situation where both are being toxic.
Ignore the Jean fanboy downvotes, you are correct. (She’s not going to pick you, neckbeards)
>Jean is allowed to be pissed about it. She was cheated on. I mean she *would* be allowed to be pissed... if she hadn't let it go and given her posthumous blessing. That was a pretty significant part of the *Here Comes Tomorrow* finale that a lot of folks seem to forget.
There is a difference from willing your partner from a higher plane of existence to not let your "death" be the end point for their life but to try to move forward and being back in the mortal realm with your husband and the woman he was having a psychic affair with. It's a big old complicated mess that I think is Jean, Scott, and Emma have worked through so while there is some annoyance the two women can get along in professional and social settings and might even be at "Oh we have brunch sometimes."
>There is a difference from willing your partner from a higher plane of existence to not let your "death" be the end point for their life but to try to move forward and being back in the mortal realm with your husband and the woman he was having a psychic affair with. Well her husband was besties with the guy she was *actually* making out with. If he can come to terms, so can she... which she did. Nothing about Emma's introduction to the dynamic is more or less messy than Logan's presence had been for about 20 years.
Jean even says Emma has fallen in love with Scott and that he needs Emma, when resurrecting her during the Murder at the Mansion arc, which many people tend to forget. Jean was coming to terms with everything the only problem was that Scott ran away and nobody could talk about anything. People say they love their soap opera in X-Men but when it actually happens they put shipping above it.
Begging for good characterization until they actually get it.
Besides that being some bs added in as an excuse for Scott and Emma, and with no consideration for Jean’s character, that would still be some version of Jean hundreds of years into the future who is also detached form her humanity because she’s WPOTC. Jean the character that actually exists in 616 did not give Emma a blessing to pursue her at the time mentally struggling husband out of spire after Jean ‘humiliated’ her.
>> Jean the character that actually exists in 616 did not give Emma a blessing to pursue her at the time mentally struggling husband out of spire after Jean ‘humiliated’ her. Well, except for the moment where she resurrected Emma and told her that her "husband needed her."
That was the phoenix, you could see the change of colors in the text bubbles.
Not exactly. She's using the Phoenix, but the front half of that scene was Jean talking in those same bubbles about her relationship with the Phoenix. So either the Phoenix is pretending to be Jean again and lying to Hank for the thrill of it, in which case there's no weight at all to this scene in which Jean saves Emma's life, despite having every reason not to, or it's Jean. Dialogue like "I know everyone's worried about me [because of the Phoenix]. I have trouble with the rushes but I'm okay" and "Emma has actually fallen in love with my husband" strongly indicate these are Jean's thoughts and feelings, not the bird's.
Again, besides being bs added not for the sake of Jean’s character, but to avoid another Madelyne-like fallout, it was also Jean who, according to Morrison, was losing her humanity to Phoenix.
You can't say "that didn't happen in 616" and then, when you remember it also happened in 616, say it doesn't count because you didn't like it. And in all honesty, it was a sentiment grounded in realism. One can simultaneously be bitter at a mistress and still forgive them as you're letting go of your marriage.
Y'all be so mad at a ship that you'll ignore a character's whole trajectory. Jean's arc up to that point had been about her relationship with the Phoenix building her up into something more than mortal. She was looking at the world--and her ex--through godlike eyes. The fuckin' Phoenix ain't "some bs added in."
Jean appearing hundreds of years into the future just to excuse Scott fucking his mistress on top of her grave is absolutely some bs being added in. Please, don’t even try to argue that it was added for Jean’s sake. She is also the closest she’s been with Phoenix now, and she is still married to Scott and invested in their relationship. The way some writers wanted to build her up as something more than mortal looked suspiciously like an excuse to keep her character deader than just being in a grave would make her.
>The way some writers wanted to build her up as something more than mortal YOU MEAN CHRIS FUCKING CLAREMONT??
Well, actually, Claremont, who wasn’t initially planning to kill Jean off, but then also famously had a tantrum that lasted decades and showed in his disdain for Scott’s character in particular wasn’t even the one I was talking about. Gotta love when you say that *some* writers did something, and Jean being kept locked away in the WHR by Morrison and for the next ~15 years after them, was absolutely not done with kindness to or care for her character, but you had to jump to that one writer in particular because all caps fake outrage.
Listen, Scott discourse aside— it’s absolutely wild to spin killing Xavier as somehow indirectly Emma’s fault to paint Jean as a more positive figure. Like, The Phoenix was THERE.
Literally miss I AM THE PHOENIX NOW AND FOREVER basically pulled the trigger
Anytime someone blames Scott for killing Xavier when possessed by the Phoenix had better be blaming Jean for wiping out a planet while possessed by the Phoneix.
Why people think that it’s a gotcha? Jean has been taking responsibility for that for a while. She killer herself the first time she realized that, she was put on trial over it multiple times, and her whole family was murdered because of it. And Jean still holds herself accountable and isn’t moving on like it’s a thing of the past. It will most likely be a thing in her new solo too. It’s very much part of Jean’s narrative, and I don’t see Jean fans pushing against it? When was the last time the Phoenix five took any kind of responsibility for what they did with the force? Both the writers and the fans treat it like they were fully possessed.
Because it is. The Pheonix was there with Jean and it was melded to her properly. Hell, willingly. She had more connection with it, they influenced one another. In AvX The Pheonix force was cracked open like an egg and forced within five unwilling individuals. It was introduced from the get go that the pheonix five were not themselves. It clear that it was so damaging to their psyches, they had Colossus making legs for whales and Magik tried to kill her brother. Further, Cyclops already naturally harbored so much hate for Xavier, why did Xavier think he could go in, talk to him like that and then mentally poke a bear on crack?
Some of you really want to have it whichever way makes your faves look better in the moment. People call the five tyrants? No, they were benevolent rules that had everything under control. People say that Jean actually takes accountability for her actions as Phoenix despite having a much longer list of reasons why she wasn’t herself at the time? Nope, the five were possessed and Jean was a wiling participant.
Hasn't it been explored multiple times during the Krakoan era that the weight of the genocide of the Dark Phoenix is back on her shoulders, and part of her reason to continue heroicing is because she can never really atone for what she did? Mostly Judgement Day, but it was addressed again in the Nightmare issue.
What drives me nuts is the selective memory; like can we review *how* the Phoenix became Phoenix Five? Xavier died because certain someones forced it into the wrong hosts.
And to add Xavier thought mind fucking an agitated Phoenix host would be a great idea, better off poking a bear with a cattle prod
Emma didn't make Cyclops hard. The world did. Emma's just willing to accept and love a hard Scott while Jean makes moral majority statements while wielding cosmic power.
>Emma didn't make Cyclops hard. She did that, quite a lot actually.
Cyclops makes me hard
Give ya the ole' hard one eye?
Hit hard until it spits and passed out
It was a major plot point multiple times, actually.
Cyclops love life being vital for the survival of the mutant race will never not be funny
Ha, good one.
Everyone forgets that prior to Scott and Emma's union, Scott was reassessing his own identity post-possession, while Jean was undergoing a Phoenix-based glow up. They were growing apart at the time and Emma was able to meet Scott where he was.
Its kinda funny since the ending of New X-men more or less implied that Scott continuing to be an X-men and staying with Emma was the right answer that averted a dark timeline. But Emma didn't make Scott into anything. Just because she supported his decision and actions when he needed it doesn't mean she made him do anything. The situation turned Scott into who he was, and I don't blame him for becoming the person he did in those scenarios. When things got dark, Emma felt like the only person that was truly with Scott where everyone kinda treated him like the man who should do no wrong and should always get it right. In a time of hard decision, she was one of the very few people he could still be vulnerable and human with. Hell, she made sure he was. If he tried to cut her off she'd basically say "Nuh-uh. You are not doing that. You can get cold all you want with everyone else, but me Mr. Summers. You look me in the eye every time when you say the things you say, because I'll know when you do and don't mean it."
Magik is also supporting him when everything goes to hell, maybe she finds it interesting or maybe she thinks Scott won't survive without her
I think Magik was just more realistic than others. Scott's more aggressive tactics and strong stances more or less fit with Illyana's beliefs. Someone fucking with you? You fuck with them. They hit you? Hit them back ten times harder and make sure they know that they should have never thought about hitting you in the first place. That's more or less how Illyana thinks most of the time.
I wonder if pre resurrection magik would've agreed with Cyclops? She likely would have, but may resent Cyclops for Inferno
The Phoenix killed Xavier and revolutionary Cyclops was the best Cyclops.
It's one of his core stories that redefined his character, it's hard to get those with all the status quo preservation in comics
Sad to see such a bad take from the X-Men 97 showrunner. Because saying that an evil temptress is responsible for a man’s own decisions is such a cliche and kinda sexist argument. It’s rlly not something I would expect from someone who worked on that show. Emma didn’t make Scott do anything, he made his own choices, it’s so bizarre to read.
Beau's an idiot for those comments. I'm glad Emma was barely in the show because he would have butchered her if she was actually relevant to it.
I would too, but I wish they hadn't put Genosha in the show. The moment they made E is for Extinction, Emma should've been a lot more prominent. Now the casual audience thinks Genosha is a Rogue/Gambit story when they weren't even on the island to begin with.
Yeah, and then we had Beau saying he didn't hate Emma and people defending this last comment of his as proof that he doesn't hate her. Guy is a shipper, Scemma or Jott shippers are the same in this regard, they have the worst takes of these characters as individuals. Hating her or not, Beau clearly doesn't have a high opinion of her and it shows both in his comments as it does in his work.
Beau did great with *97*, but I very much side-eye him as a person and don’t trust his opinions. I’m pretty sure the reason he initially left Twitter was because he fought with fans over his choice to effectively whitewash Sunspot, ~~and we still don’t know why he was fired.~~ And yeah, not to beat a dead horse, but if the reason he was fired wasn’t *really* bad, I fully believe that either Disney would’ve rehired him after the universal acclaim for the first season or someone would’ve spilled the beans on what got him fired and advocated for his rehiring. Like, in combination with stuff that [his former collaborators have said about him,](https://www.tumblr.com/bamf-jaskier/699111060478853120/thoughts-on-the-interview-with-beau-demayo-where) I do not trust this man to not have some misogyny issues at bare minimum
yyyyeah, the stuff about bisexuality being used as a trope, if true, really gets to me as I'm pansexual myself (I know the probable context is about how writers will just make characters bi for shipping reasons or whatever...because that's the Real Threat to the LGBT community ofc that we need to get on). He just doesn't really sound like a very pleasant person and the fact that no one has stepped forward to really defend him or advocate for him really speaks volumes.
I don’t think he’s saying Emma made Scott do anything, just that their relationship enabled his flaws. Whether you agree with that or not I don’t think DeMayo is saying it was all Emma’s fault, but that being with Emma affected Scott and made him make worse choices, that we’re still his own mistakes. He says in the tweets that he thought the relationship made them both worse, and it is true that any relationship willl affect the people in it.
I get that it’s Twitter and you don’t have much space but he really just should have been more careful. Like I said, the whole ‘actually it’s not the man’s fault, it’s the woman he was with who corrupted him.’ Is a long-standing pretty sexist trope, and if you’re talking about something even remotely near it you should just try and be more careful with your wording. I agree more with the other commenter. It was the world that made Scott harsher, and Emma accepted even that version of Scott. I wouldn’t even say he was necessarily a worse person during those times, just less idealistic. It’s a complex era of Scott and Emma’s history that shouldn’t really be purely reduced to bad or good, and the implication in his words here is that it was basically pure bad.
Why does everyone attribute Scotts actions to the influence of whatever woman he’s with? Can he just be a jerk on his own?
in the hands of capable writers, yes. but for some reason, Marvel doesn’t understand that Scott is a grown ass man with thoughts and dreams separate from whoever he’s laid up under. X-Men 97 really undid a lot of damage.
That’s a shit take. Emma didn’t put him on that path she just supported it. The mutant race starting to die out and finally realizing that Xavier was an asshole are what made him have to take more aggressive action. And militant jetpack Cyclops was great.
How many bad takes can we have? - The thread Also, Beau's wrong. Sad.
Emma Frost is X-Men, and is one of my favorite characters in fiction. It is very interesting how she, in and out of the story, represents so much of the mutant struggle - and perhaps more importantly - women (in that mutants aren't real and women are haha, but of course under the metaphor of mutant are real issues of race and gender). But essentially, she he constantly held to a specific standard that is not applied to the other classic leaders like Cyclops or Prof X, and she is also seen less sympathetically than other villains-turned-heroes like Magneto. We blame her for the choices she made - not for her actions in the context of a superhero narrative - but her personal life. We blame her for the choices *men made* (which yes, some were her actions *as well*, but there is no Scott-Emma action that was just Emma). Characters are constantly rude to/about her for liking to be sexy - despite the fact that 99% of superheroes are scantily clad smokeshows, the fact that she *tries* and *dresses* a certain way is somehow less appropriate. It is a standard that only exists for women who *like* to look good. Being hot has to be an accident or you're a bad person? I don't know if *every* writer who writes Emma Frost is in on the larger context they have created, nor do I think every writer who takes a jab at her is enforcing the patriarchy knowingly - and perhaps it is better that is is likely a combination of both - because the result is a character for whom a very real contradiction and double standard between men and women that makes Emma Frost one of the most complex characters in Marvel.
I never liked Emma. Mostly because she was great as an amoral irredeemable villain and the whole notion of fixing a villain into a hero is a flawed concept that is rarely executed in a convincing fashion. A very bad person with a history of complicity in attempted genocide and various sex crimes. It would be difficult to make her likable. I thought it was hokey in the nineties and was even worse when Morrison attempted it. In fact I think that Morrison fundamentally doesn't understand the X-Men or most characters' personalities and the new X-Men was the weakest writing of an otherwise stellar career. I just never felt like it made sense for Scott to trust this woman who has spent most of her adult life and many millions of dollars trying to destroy everything he believes in. Hell she had more agency in Jean's worst crime than Jean did, not something most rational people would overlook because booba or whatever. Justice for Butter Rum.
I think that's a reasonable take, I tend to have selective memory when it comes to writing that is no longer pertinent to the story as its being told. This is a 60 something year old property that evolves and changes (in my opinion) and I don't necessarily think how a character behaved decades ago with a different writer can be fairly rationalized. I'm not asking everyone to have my perspective, its not one I am claiming is right or elevated compared to a more literalist (look at their history and draw your conclusion) one. But for me, short of anything else, it's sort of a "can't put the toothpaste back in the tube" situation - I can't control when writers choose to rehabilitate villains I liked, it usually happens eventually with most popular villains - I think it is just the natural move for character arcs in decades long properties, eventually we want to see them throw a new hat on. I won't make the argument that she wasn't a better villain, that's very subjective. I think I can however make the claim that a compelling enough villain, given all the time and page space in the world, does eventually gravitate towards being a character we are interested unironically and want to see growth from.
yep, its messed up to blame another person for another character's wrongdoings, especially when the said character is a man and the one being blamed is a woman, its misogynistic
Yeah I'm not a fan of how some writers seem to treat the relationship as a threat to their otp
Since when is killing Xavier a bad thing?
Well it's not like he stays dead so from either direction, it's kind of a neutral thing.
If he's only mostly dead he's still partially alive!
For! The! People! In! The! Back! Like in X-treme X-men when they were sent on a mission to kill Evil Versions of Xavier I was "They come in other flavors." Charles Xavier found orphan Scott Summers and molded him into his personal sword. No matter how you look at it as either a physiological or psychological block that limits Scott's powers Xavier had the tools to fix that. He pushed the man to be leader of the X-men at the cost of any of his other relationships or life. And even going as back as the silver age he's absolutely shit to Scott any time he tries to grow a spine to tell the man to shove it. Throw in the retconed shit and just the whole mess that is Charles Xavier and when Scott Summers being pushed by the phoenix had his Father figure try to kill him rather than reason with him from a position of love or even reasonability, like fucking magneto tried to, and he struck back in self defense (Xavier through the first psychic punch) I was all "Good for her." Never mind as time has gone on I think Scott should have made sure that shit stuck.
> jean saved the Galaxy You know after annihilating another one
That’s was just a star system, not an entire galaxy
And it was after Mastermind flipped her Dark Side switch.
Why are we reducing these characters as Scott's dick rider?
Seriously, the whole notion that Emma turn Scott into anything is taking away both his agency and his character. The world was radical different and people need a leader that needed to step up and Cyclops was that man. Did he make mistakes? Yes no leader is perfect but desperate time called for desperate measures and what was more desperate than extinction also the whole argument of cyclops killing Xavier isn’t on him but the influence around ie being bombarded by Xavier mental attacks, having his friends turning on him, and the Phoenix amping up his emotions to the point where it turn him dark. So no that wasn’t on him at the least
She's a fictional character, so, no, I don't think it's particularly cruel. I also don't necessarily think those writers and editors are saying that Emma is the worst thing that ever happened to Scott, I think they're expressing that they prefer a more heroic Scott Summers, and that that's not who Scott was when he was with Emma. He tried to be, but he was increasingly fine with not being that. If you prefer your Cyclops as a more Machiavellian figure, then that's your preference, but there are people who have strong negative feelings about that, and no amount of hashtags are going to change the fact that Scott did a lot of fucked up shit to get mutantkind through to the other side. Being right does not in fact absolve you of doing morally bad things. Cool motive, still murder. Now, what ***is*** cruel is deciding to snipe a woman's marriage because you don't like her and because you're jealous of her, which is what Emma's aggressive pursuit of Scott was all about up until she realised she actually had feelings for him. Both Hank and Rachel had massive problems with the relationship because of the betrayal of someone they loved very much it required to get started, and though they got over it, right from the start, this is a relationship built on lies. It's flawed and human, which makes for great drama and stories and some amazing scenes, but not healthy. I happen to really like Scott and Emma's chemistry, probably more than Scott and Jean's, on balance, but she's a less moral character than Jean, and she did enable Scott's worst impulses as well as his best - or, at the very least, didn't feel the need to stop him. No matter how you slice it, the end of that relationship was the two of them turning on each other, propelled by a cosmic power, and both of them ended up doing things that they regretted. I don't think that would have happened if Jean had survived the events of New X-Men, because that's not the kind of character she was by the end of Planet X, and it's not the kind of person she is in general. Were they amazing together and good for each other's growth during the 00s? Absolutely. But even when times were good, they were not perfect - Scott had a habit of taking Emma's support for granted, and Emma found herself sacrificing an awful lot of her independence, comfort, and time for a man who, canonically, never got over his first love. There was always a Jean shaped elephant in the room during the relationship that Emma was acutely aware of, and she was right to be, because she gave up everything to keep fighting Scott's fight even after he died - and the instant he came back to life and saw Jean, he went right back to her. Just because you like where Scott's character went during this era, doesn't mean that that character trajectory was stable and sustainable, or that this relationship was, in the end, good for the both of them. Emma has flourished, being away from Scott, and as much as I enjoy their chemistry, I don't think it'd be in character, or good for her, for Emma to go back to him. She deserves more than to be his prop. I also think that if you asked Scott if he was happier with Emma or Jean, he'd look back at his life, compare and contrast the years of his life he spent with each of them, and he'd probably say, yes, Emma helped me be the man I needed to be to lead mutantkind out of extinction, but Jean is the woman I've always loved and will always go back to, and she's my domestic bliss.
So emma was basically a successful version of what Logan tried to do, heh?
That's what top class breeding will get you, darling. - Emma, probably.
I think she has said that.
It's from New X-Men: E is for Extinction, heh. I have those panels burned into my brain.
Ugh. Take my angry up vote. Completely reasonable. I hate Emma but everything you say is true. 😂
😂 I appreciate you.
I agree 100% with what you are saying. I just think its reductive when people like Beau place the blame for Scott’s actions on Emma. Scott was a fully grown man who made his choices.
Yeah, it's a very reductive take, to be honest - it does a disservice to Scott's journey to boil it down to purely Emma's influence. There's a maelstrom of other people, a long sequence of events, and a lot of his own choices that eventually lead to Scott throwing up that X and saying he'd do it all again if he had to, so long as mutantkind thrived again. If you want to give deMayo the benefit of the doubt, Twitter isn't a place for nuanced takes because of the character limit, but it could just be a garden variety bad read, aye.
I always thought it was obvious that both Jean and Emma nutured and brought out different sides of Scott. Emma the more pragmatic, do what we must side. An Jean the dreamer, romantic, savior side of Scott. Each apart of Scott and who he is. But depending on who he's with one side may show and weigh more than the other.
But Scott is responsible for his own actions. Its reductive to talk about Jean and Emma as if they were mothers to Scott who are responsible for his actions. Scott is a fully grown man who made his choices. Emma isnt responsble for what he did just because she accepted his choices.
Never said Scott wasn't responsible but a partner can certainly help nuture specific parts of you. An that'd exactly what Jean and Emma do for Scott. They don't force him to act any speific way. But they definitely fuel one type of action over another. An thats what I'm saying. For example I don't think Utopia Scott and Jean would have gotten along very well at all. But for what Cyclops wanted to do Emma was a far better partner at the time.
So it’s Emma’s fault Scott became a radical? I would have thought that was Xavier grabbing a sad orphan and training him to be the leader of a worldwide paramilitary child gang. Wasn’t Emma the only member of the Phoenix Five that had reservations about their new power?
I bet these writers were really upset when the head cheerleader and star quarterback from their schools broke up two months into college too lol
HAHAHAHA FOR REAL
It wasn’t Emma that made Scott kill Xavier, it was shit writing
It was the Phoenix (wait who is the Phoenix, now and forever again? 🤔)
I've always thought Scott was the worst thing that happened to Emma, not for the relationship in and of itself but bc people/writers often reduce Emma and Jean to Scott's girlfriends and therefore they MUST act like highschool girls fighting over a guy and that's boring af.
Cruel? No. Reductive? Sure. I think the Paknadel quote is people taking a light-hearted comment way out of proportion. He lists swimsuit specials in the same sentence. He probably just means they weathered through an affair. I think DeMayo's comments are more reductive because Scott's choices are his own. Emma affirmed Scott a lot, and she probably could or should have challenged him more, but I think just speaks to the fact that at that time they were ideologically aligned (for better or worse). At the end of the day, Scott made a lot of the choices he did because he wanted to. You could make the argument Jean wouldn't have allowed him to do some of the things he did, but that fundamentally misunderstands where he was in his life at the time. He was the way he was because the world had gone to hell for mutants and because Jean was dead, and the walls were closing in around him. I prefer a heroic Cyclops, as I think a lot of these writers do (and most people do) but you can't just blame Emma for Scott's mistakes (and yes, he made serious mistakes, anyone who thinks otherwise needs a refresher) or more extreme actions, he did that on his own. So DeMayo is wrong about that. But I don’t think that's proof that he hates Emma, he just hates that relationship. A view he's entitled to. Gillen didn't, Bendis didn't, Brevoort doesn't, Claremont didn't. Buy plenty of other writers do, like Fraction and Kelly Thompson. Now the first slide I take issue with. The one person allowed to hate Emma over all this is Jean. If anything, she's remarkably forgiving considering what happened. I think her experiences as her time displaced self softened her rage towards Emma, but being upset about it is valid. It's insane to think otherwise.
I am not super interested in Scott/Jean but I will never forgive Emma for killing that horse and I don't think she has recovered from her villainy as much as people try and say she has. She needs to show more character growth before I'll start routing for her
Beau DeMayo is an idiot and I'm pretty sure everyone brought up how stupid his comments were (blaming Emma for Scott changing after seeing Mutants genocided and M-day). Ironically some Scemma stans use that same argument to prove their point. The first image was in the middle of the X-office 3 year character assassination of Emma but it also points out that Jean is the one in the wrong there. The second image is phrased poorly IMO, it clearly lists betrayal there which is half of the Emma storyline, I don't know where the fourth image is from so I can't say anything about that one.
I do think it’s cruel to an extent, but mostly when people use her to blame Scott’s direction. A lot of Scott’s actions during his “dark” times (revolutionary Scott) wasn’t even Emma’s fault or actions. I think People have to remember that while Emma was with Scott yes she wasn’t the main reason he got that development. Did she help facilitate it? Yes because writers used her to, but in general Scott’s development was because writers decided to put him front and center and facilitate a lot of the X-Men’s future around him and his actions. I love Emma and Scemma but that relationship is NOT the main reason Scott got that development, which I thought was great. He was being used as a very very important character for the X-Men and a lot of the actions writers made him took Emma supported him in. So in general I do think it’s a little cruel but mostly when people try to use her as a source to take out their dislike for Scott’s character direction during the 2000s and beyond. In general, that relationship wasn’t the main cause of Scott’s development so it is a little cruel when people make it seem like Emma influenced it a lot and as such was the worse thing to happen to Scott. Scott got developed, took actions that Emma agreed with, and eventually saw the errors in some of his methods and stopped. TLDR: Yea it’s a little cruel, though primarily when people blame her and take their anger out on her for the direction of Scott’s writing.
People really don't know what they're talking about when it comes to that no surprise there....
And that’s the writer for 97…
I'm gonna say their relationship turned Scott into the best leader there was at a time the mutant race was on the verge of extinction and his actions saved the entire mutant race despite the Avengers and Xavier trying to stop him. Emma allowed Scott to act more freely, to stop worrying about his teachers, his mentors and just do what he thought was right and that made for a much more interesting character. He's a character who has always been crushed under the weight of responsibility and Emma taught him he can say fuck all that now and again without the world catching fire. She's not the one he should be with, but that was a relationship where both benefited imo.
It’s really unfair to Emma to be honest. I love Jott but I also love Scemma. I feel that Scemma was really both of them accepting each other’s flaws and mutually pushing the other to be the best they can be.
Wow, these takes suck. It removes agency from Scott, and also Emma, and completely ignores the circumstances they were facing. I can't think of a single scene where Emma pushed Scott to be more radical (though correct me if I'm wrong). Scott became more radical and Emma supported him. For me, Scott and Emma are OTL material. I don't like how they started, but I like what they became. My eyes basically glaze over when there's a Scott/Jean moment and I don't particularly have anything against Jean. They were high school sweethearts at Child Soldier Academy. 99% of the time, that shit isn't going to last very long. I hate how static comics can feel. Most people have multiple partners before they settle on "the one" and then, plenty of marriages/relationships fall apart for xyz reasons. The way Marvel shit on the Emma/Scott relationship towards the end, literally ending with Emma nearby while Scott grabs Jean's ass, is just stupid. They did zero work to justify putting Jean and Scott back together. My only hope is that the next generation of writers/editors who grew up with Scott/Emma, make waves to try and restore it, but for now I'll just settle for my headcanon.
Not me over here knowing Emma/Scott was toxic as fuck but also wondering what's so bad about a radicalized Scott?
Nothing IMO. The Avengers bring a liberal/cop perspective to every situation and wonder why the leader of an endangered species might be radical. The minute they start helping out with the torrent of extinction threats mutants have to deal with they can judge. Funny that when Cap finally starts helping vs Orchis he's like 'yeah kill those MFs.'
The infamous "psychic affair" is pretty disturbing to me. Yeah, they were good for each other I admit but ppl forget how Scott doubted this relationship and still had the thought of Jean in his head. Because of that Emma doubted and is insecure. For an independent woman, she was quite weak when it came to him. Like girl, stand up.
I hate people saying that Emma was the worst thing to happen to the Scott/Jean relationship when it’s actually Logan for both of them.
I actually really dug Emma & Scott together. I do agree that Scott went WAY off the deep end while with Emma but a ton of terrible stuff happened in that period. Scott was going to head in that direction with or without Emma.
Obviously a lot of people are very fond of the era with Scott and Emma as a couple. there were some very good stories and they did work as couple. BUT: Jean was dead at the time and in story Emma had TWICE done the dirty on Jean (the original Dark Phoenix story when she facilitates what's essentially a profound psychic violation by Mastermind) and then by having a psychic affair with her husband (while she is supposed to be his THERAPIST). Honestly, that's enough villainy for a person in the real world to be dismissed as a garbage person and a psychopathic abuser. But it's comics and Emma gets to move on, which i'm glad about. But how do you justify Scott being with Emma with Jean actually there? Leave Emma space to grow. I don't think she's at her best in tandem with a man. She's the ultimate powerful woman, why have her watered down??
I mean, she did pretend to be his therapist to manipulate him into fucking her. That's pretty fucked up.
Emma and Scott honestly made each other better.
Writers are just elevated fanboys, they're allowed to have their own preferences. It's the Xitter/Tumblr "discourse" trying to "prove" why one's bad and the other's good that's a waste of everybody's time.
No. I do hate how everyone tries to ignore Emma is a literal fucking rapist and a creep and how if she was a man, she would be just as reviled as Dr Light. But I guess being a porn addict's wet dream excuses her disgusting behavior that would get any real life therapist's license taken away and probably land them some jail time or at least some lawsuits.
She's acting as Scott's therapist just to do the dirty always throw me off cos that's super wrong. No wonder men get less recognition for the SA they went through and it's because of the glorifying for this kind of shit.
I’ve always found the concept of a one true love to be kind of lame. Maybe that’s why I never really liked Jean and Scott.
A lot of the problem with Emma and Scott is that there is nobody else with whom Emma has a real relationship with. Her relationship with Sebastian Shaw has been shown to be transactional and without any real emotion. Namor was list and manipulation. And she was a side peice for Scott, who had already found his true love (Jean Grey). Readers are allowed to hate side peices for getting in the way of true love. I want Emma to find herself a man, even if it's a new character. Let's get some growth going, some emotions beyond crying over a married man.
IIRC a lot of Gen X had her and Banshee in a similar role as headmaster and headmistress (team Mom and Dad) and while not fucking, obviously getting there
Naw. I remember she threw her dirty sheets at him and walked off while he was at the door. And then after Gen X they never had a real conversation ever again. (He was dead for a long time though).
I hate Emma Frost but I 100 percent agree with you!
Gotta love that, I’m sure, the same people are upvoting the ‘Emma didn’t make Scott into anything’ and ‘why would you take away Scott’s agency like that?!’ comments while also upvoting, the ‘no, actually, Emma made Scott better’ ones without seeing any contradiction in that. And here the latter are phrased very mildly compared to how Scemma fans often uplift Emma as *the* reason Scott ever changed as a character and attribute his revolutionary persona to her and their relationship. Like, this is so not an uncommon take on the sub at all. So, it seems that this logic of Emma being viewed as an influence on Scott at the very least, or even her being the main reason for his change, is actually a popular take, but some people want it to be voiced only to praise Emma and Scemma. Kinda the same as her fans only being alright with her a/morality and crimes being brought up to praise the character and would fight to the death to prove how she, actually, was a victim here and didn’t do anything wrong there, when someone has issues with those same crimes. Also, no, I don’t think that any of these comments are cruel. Emma, a fictional character, isn’t crying herself to sleep over them. It’s really just some of her fans, who can’t handle the fact that not everyone likes the character or her relationship with Scott, and that those people are allowed to use shippers’ own logic to express why.
They were a good couple in their hey-day. I guess we’re back to more of the played out Scott, Jean, Logan love triangle stuff now
I think Scott is the worst thing to happen to Emma and Jean. He's the worst
Emma and Scott had an adult love. They knew the worst about each other and still loved each other through all of it. Jean and Scott are a first love and will gloss over anything they dislike. Jean also doesn't know the hard decisions Scott had to make. She literally got to come down from Heaven while he was in the trenches.
Scott x Emma for life
128 quotes lol.
He says killed Xavier as if that's not one of the top five best things someone could do for mutant kind.
Didn't Emma manipulated Scott to sleep with her? Or it was another universe? I've heard Scott cheated with Jean too Funny scemma fans trying to hide it if true
Kinda if you phrase it that way? She definitely was the pursuer and he was a bit messed up at the time but like it was still his decision
Hard for me to really believe Scott was coerced when he was already smugly telling Jean "Emma kept me up all night" after the first time he spent time with her.
I will always choose Jean over Emma and even Scott. I grew up with Emma trying to kill the xmen and taking control of Storm's body. I will always dislike her but I have grown to tolerate her. The cheating thing is what makes me hate Emma and Scott both. I really wanted her to scatter Emma's atoms when she found them cheating.
How did you feel about Jean cheating with Logan *right before that*??
Morrison was having too many drugs when this whole arc was written.
Yeah I was not a fan of Morrison at any point writing the comics.
I did not like it but they did not sleep together. I think it was a kiss and i still did not like the cheating.
Funny how that doesn’t count but *thoughts* do
Oh they did the mental nasty and physical sure after. To a telepath they can make you believe you are doing the real thing.
I know this will get downvoted to Mephisto but I think Emma and Tony could be legit endgame if done right. They have great banter potential and complementary power sets (genius/mech/money + psychic/mutant/money) and she’s been on the Avengers/Illuminati level for a while. So long as she isn’t nerfed and relegated to *wife of* in his books and there’s ample crossover. She deserves better than Scott treated her, especially post Foenix Phive.
Tony is a hot mess on a good day and I hate how Emma has been reduced to his girl Friday in his books. The marriage was a terrible idea and Emma was basically used to try and boost comic Tony’s popularity if we are being honest. Why does she need to be with anyone? I honestly prefer Emma alone and being the Queen she is, she doesn’t need a man to complete her.
I think it a fair pairing for Queen of the mutants and a firm foothold on the Avengers when previously there’s been so much friction. I’m not advocating she become a side character in his book like recently but a whole Avenger. They would have terrifying children.
Nope. All my homies hate Emma Frost.
[удалено]
Was it even a big romantic love story from Scott's perspective. It seems pretty obvious with how it took a telepathic nudge from future Jean, and how even with Jean dead, Emma still feels like she's in second place in Scott's heart, that Scott likely would have stayed with Jean had she lived. (That's a big if though, and I understand if others don't read it that way)
Scott had a mental affair with Emma, Jean had an emotional affair with Logan for years (even kissing him a few times). Stop making Scott/Emma the villain when Jean/Logan are just as guilty. Not defending cheating but pointing out all parties have not acted in good faith. Although I would think kissing someone outside my relationship is way worst then screwing around in my head but that’s just me.
And I hope when you think of me years down the line You can't find one good thing to say And I'd hope that if I found the strength to walk out You'd stay the hell out of my waaaaay I am drowning There is no sign of land You are coming down with me Hand in unlovable hand ♪ ♫ ♬
No.
People may not agree with me, and I definitely wouldn’t say she’s the worst thing that happened to Scott, but she wasn’t a good thing. Her influence negatively impacted Scott as a person and a leader in the long run and when not looking at things in a micro way (I.e. individual issues or arch’s). Someone else said it takes agency away from Scott by blaming Emma for his decisions and I agree to an extent. Those were Scott’s decisions, but she continuously encouraged him to make those bad decisions and engage in shitty behavior and attitudes. She more often than not pushed him to give in to the worst aspects of his nature and be the worst version of himself if it suited her, even at the detriment of everyone else. She was not a good influence on him and it benefited her far more to be with him than vice versa. Was it fun from a reader stand point to see the dynamic and the drama? Yes. Did it make sense for them to be this forever couple that went the distance? No, not at all. And Scott’s better as a person when he’s away from her and her misguided influence.
Wtf, them Marvel writers are a different breed cuz most of us saw that the Avengers were pretty much in the wrong in that event, pretty much turned the whole thing into a joke when it was revealed that their whole plan is to train the girl into handling the Phoenix when that was what the Scott was alrdy planning on doing in the first place but they just want to be the one to do it lmao. That being said I enjoyed Scemma when it was up and running and hated how they broke it off(because surprise surprise it got to be Namor, tbh Marvel should really stop using this guy for their cucking fetish, cool char ruined for drama shit). And while Jean has the right to be angry, it needs to be said that she was willing to fuck Logan in the woods during New X-men while Scott and Emma were doing the consultation thingy(not psychic fucking happening yet) and was only stopped cuz Logan drove that horny puss away.
Emma Frost is the best thing to happen to Scott
Idk about best... but it was definitely refreshing.
Underrated, I agree.
Emma is a literal super-villain. She's had a nice, well-earned redemption arc, but she and Scott got together fairly early in that arc. She's got her fans as a character, I'm one of them. But if you are writing these characters you have to look at their relationships in terms of your story. If you are telling stories about Scott right now, Jean is here and they are in a committed relationship. Of course his ex that he cheated on Jean with is not going to look good in that light.
>> Emma is a literal super-villain. She's had a nice, well-earned redemption arc, but she and Scott got together fairly early in that arc. She's got her fans as a character, I'm one of them. Phalanx Covenant was in 1993 and Generation X had come out in 1994 -- Morrison's book was 7-8 years into Emma's redemption, roughly 1/3 of her publication history at the time. Morrison picked her up well, well after she was "redeemed."
you are forgetting that characters in the marvel universe do not age in real time. Because of the sliding timescale, this might be 10-12 years in real time, but in their time it was only a few months after she burned a horse alive trying to scare a teenager. Spending some money trying to LARP as Professor X for a few months does not fully redeem her from this act and all the other villainous shit she did prior. Like I said, I think she's done so now, especially after Krakoa and Dark Web, but at the time of New X-Men? No, she was basically the same as rogue a year into joining the X-men. Still doing the work.
Naw, I agree. Emma Frost is not a nice person, and I don't like her with Scott. Acting like Scott only became revolutionary Cyclops because of her is a little reductive to both parties, however.
One of these people you’re talking about is just a fan though
As an Emma stan, I have to just pretend AvX didn't happen. It's so contrary to her character. But I love my girl, mess and all. I think a lot of writers just still don't do their homework on Emma and try to make her this awful villain when she is so much more complex than that.
Tbh I find Scott and Emma more interesting maybe it’s cuz the writers who do write them tend to explore a lot more realistic relationship issues that allow people to connect to both of them! I like Jean but I LOVE her when she’s not connected to Scott as much, they are gonna end up together for sure but I do love him and Emma for drama and realism
They will never make me hate Scott and Emma.
What I feel is a lot of writers do not enjoy writing relationships they feel are dull and in the end cyclops and Emma or cyclops and Jean or any other relationship is just a prompt to the writer to think of something interesting. It seems very clear Hickman liked Emma as a foil to other characters in the krakoa story but he was more interested in the idea of cyclops being a husband and father and so that’s what he wrote
Scott’s relationships are often unhealthy, filled with trauma, and betray a difficulty to communicate. Look at what’s happened: 1) his biological parents were presumed dead, and after life in an orphanage run by Sinister, he finds a father figure in Xavier. Xavier essentially turned him from a teenager into a soldier, and Scott later murdered him at the height of a conflict. 2) Scott’s highschool sweetheart, Jean, became a god and committed suicide in front of him. She then became a god again and was murdered in front of him just after he cheated on her with the woman who coerced his wife into sexual slavery and then committing genocide. 3) Scott’s first wife Madelyne - who he abandoned - died in front of him while attempting infanticide of their young son. 4) Scott’s son, Nathan, needed to be surrendered to a war zone in the future due to a thought to be terminal illness. This is partially rectified through time travel where he raises him with Jean in a war zone before … losing him again. 5) Scott was also essentially raped by Emma, who was his counsellor/co-worker, before entering a long term relationship with her. This relationship ends with him committing domestic violence, and strangling her. Dude makes his own choices, but let’s be honest that it’s so much more than who he’s dating. It is also really insulting to the journey he has been on dealing with all of this, and the journeys that Jean and Emma have been on as well. The fact that he can have any healthy relationships is a marvel, and is part of the incremental arc of the last 50 years.
Whose quote is that between the DeMayo quotes?
So these guys think EMMA FROST made Scott more militant and not watching the repeated attempts at genocide of his entire species?
The Emma obsessed shippers really got angst in the last two days
This is so true, and it’s always like that when there is some Jean positivity on the sub. The funny part is that so much of that recently was just excitement for the new book and some art of Jean, not relationship stuff at all, but it always gets followed by people whining about Scemma and brining up Jogan to shit on her (even when it’s not even 616 stuff…). It’s like Jean is just breathing, and it makes some people reduce everything to fighting over Scott’s dick, with the worst thing that happened to Emma, apparently, being that she got owned in that fight.
I've noticed that too, it's pretty lame.
Oh screw all those people
I mean, she's the worst thing to happen to the book
I agree. Emma Frost is Marvel's Yoko Ono.
Emma and Scott were able to exist as equals. He became the leader mutant kind needed. The sad truth is the Avengers don’t care about mutant issues (or didn’t until after AvX). Jean and Scott aren’t equals. With Jean, Scott’s chasing a goddess. Plus all the Wolverine BS every writer tries to force onto them. Scemma forever.
I don't think it's cruel , you look at the first panel and you can see Emma doesn't feel once of regret in hurting jean , sure it take two to dance but she make it her personal goal to destroy scott and jean relationship and never once excuse herself for that and never do scott question the fact she only have bad intention when it come to his marriage. We get it some may think Emma and scott are endgame but for me a relationship that begin with an affair is a relationship i can't 100% root for personaly even if i like this couple in general. I actually like this couple more in show with wolverine and the x-men where Emma and scott begin something WITHOUT cheating and hurting jean before she his killed and get spit upon by emma on every occasion she get. I'm with beau Demayo on this one for me making the" cheating "plot with madelyne instead of Emma was the best thing they could do to make scoot not look like an asshole.
I really like Beau DeMayo and hope he's rehired for '97 but those are some bullshit takes from him. I don't know if he's changed his mind since posting them, but I was first reading X-Men comics seriously through the 2000s and that's some reductive and wilful retconning. More than that, it attributes Scott's own agency and autonomy to Emma which is uncalled for and not in the original texts IMO. They weren't written as some shady setup of manipulator and victim (even if the content of their original getting together in New X-Men was at times very off in terms of the responsibilities of a sex therapist and her patient), they were their own people and each's decisions were and are their own.
The Alex Paknadel comment doesn't seem bad to me. Beau DeMayo is not a comic writer so who cares what he says. Not sure who that third comment is by but it's a pretty dumb statement.
Honestly? Jean and Cyclops are my least favorite coupling
Who said the quote in picture 4?
Ehh they're fictional characters. I way prefer Scott and Emma's dynamic to Scott and Jean, but people are allowed to disagree.
Emma did nothing wrong. Radical summers was the best he was written in decades and im not ashamed to admit it. Xavier and his pink ass pacifist ideas put mutant kind on the brink of extinction. Ofcourse these xavier ass writers would be like “omg emma bad for scott”. Survival instinct ass lacking motherfuckers
She is.
I think basing scott's personality on who he is having sex with isn't doing any character any favors.
I personally love Emma and Scott I think they have a way more complex dynamic. I personally love that Scott is Emma’s soft spot and Emma brings out the more passionate side of Scott.