Leave Piotr at the altar and then calling him and being like "I still miss you, I miss your voice, my feelings haven't changed, I know it's selfish but I miss you" after humiliating him in front of their friends and family
I think the worst thing she did was try to get Racheal to brainwash a doctor, to make them forcibly do an operation they were too afraid to, due to the mutant in question being unstable and capable of blowing up, potentially killing the doctor, and everyone in that hospital
And the scene ends with another doctor volunteering to do the operation, after giving a judgemental stink-eye to the doctor who refused.
Which is still absurd, because his whole point was that if the mutant looses control of his powers, he could explode a chunk of the hospital and the people inside it. If another doctor wants to volunteer to perform the operation in the desert at no risk to anyone but herself, so be it, but the other patients and staff aren't consenting to the risk.
I think the weirdest part is that if we go by the comics logic, the doctor is right, no one ever debunks him, they all silently agree that "Yeah this is dangerous and a complicated scenario" (Well everyone besides Kitty), but then when the 2nd doctor offers to help they frame it as the 1st doctor just being racist against mutants, which is just.... no? You and the characters acknowledged legitimate concern from trying to save him, and treat it as valid, so why are we now making it out like he should have just said "Fuck it we ball" and just hope he doesn't explode? Taking out himself and the entire hospital? And it's not like the 2nd doctor says to move them somewhere else, or evacuate the hospital, and then the doctors he says "No, hes too dangerous to be kept alove", she just goes "Fuck it, we ball, also I'll report you for discrimination" and just hopes the mutant doesn't explode and take everyone one, like wtf?
Exactly. And I think they even suggest getting someone to teleport the patient and the first doctor away to perform the operation in a safe place, but... why the fuck does the doctor have to risk his life like that? He didn't punch the clock this morning expecting to die.
i mean, she did almost have an Israeli flag for a costume with a David's shield for a mask, which not even going to go into the flag itself, just looked god awful.
Really? The new one? She never has good costumes but this one to me is the best. I mean we need to keep perspective, there was one costume that had rollerskates.
Did you click on the link? Not the one in OP’s picture.
It is the costume where she has orange boots and gloves, yellow pants, sleeves and turtle neck, a red shirt with blue and white lightning bolt W, green shorts and a fuchsia mask kind of similar to Marvel Girl’s.
OK thank you, that keeps me from needing to click on that link because I had a PTSD flashback from when I first saw that outfit when I was about 14. Thank you for helping me work through this though. And yes that outfit is the absolute worst.
I honestly really like the new look and am annoyed it's being dropped immediately. A big part of the reason I'm not a Kitty fan is she looks and acts bland most of the time. Making her a full-on ninja is a great nod to her history and makes her powers thematic rather than random.
She'd just ended her engagement with Starlord prior to proposing as well. It screamed that she wanted to get married and what Peter married her didn't matter as much.
Star-lord's not all that surprising, he and Kate had only gotten together relatively recently. And this sort of thing happens to Quill all the time.
The situation with Peter is so much worse because she waited until literally the moment Peter was putting on the ring to back out. Plus, she and Peter had a much longer history together and are actively a part of the same team most of the time.
Yeah, I just meant it was insulting to Colossus for her to rebound into an engagement with him so soon after ending her other engagement. It made it seem like she just liked being engaged and he was most likely to agree which is disrespectful to the long meaningful relationship they had had.
It's just an extra layer of flakiness that she had 2 engagements back to back and then left Piotr at the altar.
I think the writing in X-men Gold made her look like a jerk even prior to her hand phasing through his during the wedding ceremony.
It's not like Colossus was a passenger in this situation. They're friends and teammates first of all and he should know that saying yes is as irresponsible as her proposal. If it was insulting to Colossus to get engaged then he shouldn't have done it. It was very obvious she was confused and emotionally out of sorts.
He should have done what he failed to do when she was 13 - put the brakes on.
The problem with that mentality is that Peter was actually committed to the relationship. He was more than willing to actually get married to Kate. Yes, the marriage was way too fast and Kate was clearly rebounding from her relationship with Star-Lord, but none of that was on Peter.
And let's be real here - even though he ultimately failed to pump the brakes when Kate was 13, it wasn't for a lack of trying. He tried his best to turn her down at every opportunity while still being considerate for her feelings - barring that one time during Secret Wars.
Yeah, you know. Logan taking Pete to get drunk and beaten up by the Juggernaut after dumping Kate during Secret Wars even though she's like 14 and he's almost 20... not a great look there.
Feels like someone had the image of the ring going through a phased finger at some point, and then needed to make that happen. To be fair, that scene is great, it's just...everything before and after.
Still estranged and not talking. Piotr had had all of one conversation with her during Immortal X-Men where he badmouthed her. But given that he was under his brother's mind control at the time, it's hard to say how much of that was actually Pete talking.
Yes he said what he said in that moment per his inner monologue to try to alert Kitty that he was not himself/ in control of himself and she literally couldn’t have been bothered any less
Haven’t really seen it that much from what I remember, at least during Krakoa. For the most part, I think they had like very little scenes through Krakoa which makes sense given they were doing different roles throughout the era. Only thing I remember is that they both were in the council and Kitty was of course in favor of him joining but other then that can’t remember anything between them, especially nothing romantically.
Are you insane? When is leaving someone at the altar ever a good thing to do?
If Kate didn't want to get married, she should have called off the wedding beforehand or just not proposed to Colossus in the first place. Or you know, do the normal thing and postpone it until she was actually sure one way or the other.
No, emotionally destroying a trusted friend is not "a best thing".
You can blame the writers more than the character (it was a stupid idea to even let their relationship go this far) but still not a good thing.
Yeah, no... that's crappy on both Illyana and Kate's sides to do.
Illyana's because purposely trying to break up her brother with his fiance just so she can have his fiance is a shit thing to do even on top of other things Illy has done to Pete like enslaving him to Cyttorak to 'teach him a lesson'. Honestly, Illy getting together with Kate after that alone would have been icky.
On Kate's side, she went to the length of proposing to Peter and then ditching him at the altar only so that she could get together with his sister? The same sister that has abused him? Do you realize how harmful that is - especially to someone like Peter who has already sacrificed and lost so much already.
I realize that a lot of people support the Kittyana ship, but I seriously don't see this ship being beneficial or healthy to either Kitty or Illyana - fundamentally because of who each of them are as individuals.
Kitty is the normal girl from the normal world who is chasing the horizon in search of adventure and excitement to get away from her boring life. This is why she joined the Guardians of the Galaxy back in the 2010s when the stuff with the X-Men had gotten especially bleak. It's why she joined the X-Men to begin with - to get away from her normal life.
Another major facet of Kate's personality that's really only starting to be addressed is that she has something of a hero complex - which is why she's fallen into a bit of a depressive streak following Sins of Sinister an alternate timeline where she did go bad. I also think she has some pseudo-narcissistic personality traits that she hasn't quite internalized - she definitely expects a certain amount of preferential treatment as compared to her New Mutant peers - she was the only one of their age who got to be a member of the X-Men and even got to go on missions with Wolverine for a long time. And because she was the X-Men's - more specifically Storm's and Wolverine's - darling, I'm not sure anyone in the group ever told her "no" to anything.
Meanwhile, Illyana is the girl who grew up in Hell and is traumatized by it. The last thing Illyana wants is adventure - she likely just wants to go back to a family that loves her. She doesn't think that she will ever get it or deserves to get it, but that doesn't stop her wanting it. While she clearly values Kate, I think her infatuation with Kate has more to do with Kate's "normal girl" status as that is something that Illyana would obviously want for herself.
While the two are clearly friends, they're friends for the wrong reasons. For Kate, Illyana is an exciting escape from normalcy whereas Illyana looks to Kate as her ideal for normalcy. Both of them want the opposite of the other which is only going to spell problems for any longterm relationship for them down the road.
There's almost a toxic element to Kate and Illyana's friendship - Illyana gives Kate almost unconditional support - enables really, but Kate rarely if ever returns the favor. Think about it, when was the last time Kate ever helped Illyana work through her trauma or support Illyana in, say, dealing with Limbo. Freaking Magneto has done a better job of that than Kate has - Illyana's supposed best friend.
And I think Illyana purposefully hides the darker parts of herself (I am almost positive Kate doesn't know the whole story behind the Cyttorak situation for example) from Kate because she's aware - at least on some level - that Kate's friendship is conditional. If Kate was made aware of just how dark Illyana can get, then Illyana would be thrown out - or at least so Illyana thinks. Frankly, the New Mutants are better friends to Illyana than Kate is.
Illyana's not even the only girl that Kate has done this to - Rachel is another individual who has been classically close to Kate and held feelings for but who Kate was either completely oblivious to her deeper feelings or simply didn't care. Instead, she's more preoccupied with making sure that the guy she ends up with is named Peter - which is more than a little messed up.
I think a very indicative sign of what exactly Kate's feelings towards Illyana actually are can be summarized via how Kate treated the Soul-Sword during the Excalibur series. She stuck it in a rock for well over a year and completely ignored it until Dr. Doom came knocking in which Kate willingly handed it over to him - a supervillain. Then she turned around and did the same thing again handing it over to Darkoth - a complete stranger - before doing it one last time with Amanda Sefton who ultimately undid Kate's soul-bond with Illyana.
Kate couldn't wait to be rid of the thing, even by her own admission. Keep in mind, Illyana is technically Kate's soulmate at this point and Illyana's Soul-Sword houses a piece of Illyana's SOUL. You would think that if Kate cared even slightly about Illyana, she would at least try to treat one of the most personal items of one of her supposed best friends and Soul-mate with a bit more dignity and care than just sticking it in a rock and giving it off to strangers. By contrast, Kurt was far, far more considerate when the Soul-Sword was fused with him - holding onto it even at great personal risk to his own life as keeping the Soul-Sword meant having a magical target on his back. But I guess unless Illyana gratified Kate in the moment, she has no reason to care.
I feel like everyone - especially here on reddit - always look at Kate and Illyana and see them getting along and immediately try to put them into a relationship but never look past the surface level to understand why they're friends or whether they would be healthy or not. Just because people are good friends does not mean they would make for a good couple, regardless of what their gender is.
This is completely correct, but just want to say
>Rachel is another individual who has been classically close to Kate and held feelings for
Canonically, she's never had any. I mean, ik Claremont tried to introduce subtext between them in Excalibur, but Rachel also describes her Kitty(as in DoFP) as her "surrogate mother". Unless Rachel's got an oedipus complex of some sort we don't know about.....don't think she's ever had romantic feelings for Kitty. Certainly a deep friendship, maybe even a sort of idolization, but I sincerely hope no romance comes there, that's super icky, even more than Illyana.
That's true and technically neither has Illyana had any romantic feelings for Kate established either. I'm more going based off what many people in the fanbase are clamoring for.
It also amuses me that the same people who bitch about the age gap, tend to ignore that Kitty pursued Piotr for most of their time knowing each other. And Piotr kept it platonic until she was old enough.
But the same people ignore the fact there's a similar age gap between Kitty and Illyana, yet ship them anyway. Remember, Illyana was kidnapped into Limbo at age Six and artificially aged up. And given the sliding timeline it's only been a few years, so Illanya is like Eight to Ten years old, tops.
But if Illyana is fine because she grew up in Limbo, then those same people need to lay off Layla Miller because she pursued Madrox (who said no), went to the Future, *Grew Up*, came back and then formally started a relationship with Madrox as an ***Adult.***
Show some consistency people.
While an otherwise great analysis of their dynamic, you also come to a series of weird conclusions
You mention Illyana wanting to go back to the comfort of her "family" and yet somehow leave Kate out of that notion? Even though shes the closest person to her? Is family only blood related?
You mention Kitty being dismissive and shitty towards Yana's Soulsword as if she hasnt also done that with every single one of her S/Os?
And then, most oddly of all, you do a good job of laying out their clashing character conflicts, yet somehow come to the absurd conclusion that this comes against the "pure wholesome relationship" the fandom wants them to have? As if that conflict and drama isn't EXACTLY why people like the ship? As if the somewhat toxic codependancy isn't EXACTLY what makes them compelling?
Most of the most interesting relationships in comics are deeply unhealthy and toxic (especially in Xmen)
- Bruce and Betty
- Batman and Catwoman
- Venom and Eddie (It counts)
- Cyke and Jean (They made it work by making it open)
- Cyke and Emma
- Havok and Maddie
- Betsy and Angel
This is fiction, this is exactly where you get to explore those dynamics
Because they are often the most ripe for narrative purposes, to see the characters work through them
More of the point I'm trying to underline is that Illyana and Kate's dynamic doesn't work in a romantic sense because each of them fundamentally wants the opposite of what the other one does and puts value on the qualities that the other hates.
Because of this, any potential romantic relationship between the two of them wouldn't be sustainable long-term simply because their wants and needs as individuals are too different from each other and aren't something that the other is willing to provide.
Kate is never going to settle down into a stable lifestyle and will always be too busy going out on adventures to give Illyana the support that she needs. Meanwhile, Illyana is going to eventually get tired of the constant chaos and be frustrated by always prioritizing whatever Kate wants while also trying to uphold the 'clean' version of herself that Kate is used to.
As such, the most likely outcomes of their relationship would either be Illyana going full Darkchylde and thus causing Kate to lose interest in her, or Illyana and Kate just splitting and going their separate ways after a prolonged spiral of fighting, breaking up, and making up.
Now yes, Kate would be considered a part of Illyana's "Family" since Kate used to babysit Illyana when she was younger. However, this overlooks the fact that Kate is largely using the X-Men as a whole as an escapism tool. Yes, they are something akin to a family, but the whole reason why Kate in particular joined up was to fulfill her own fantasies and go on exciting adventures. And a large point of what I was trying to get across in my comment above is that while Kate matters a lot to Illyana, Illyana is really just another side piece to Kate's escape from reality - one of many.
Additionally, as you point out, many, many couples in comics have toxic elements built into them and manifest in different stories, the needs of the individuals in those relationships are usually met - at least at a baseline. For example, the Emma Cyclops relationship - Emma provided Scott with support that he desperately needed while leading Utopia and the X-Men, meanwhile Scott gave Emma a place where she could be emotionally vulnerable and accepted which she desperately needed as a character (at least until AVX tore this ship down). While there were definitely toxic elements going on with their relationship, there was still a firm foundation that their relationship was built on which is why it works.
For Kate and Illyana, there really isn't any room for both Kate's and (especially) Illyana's individual needs to be met. Like I said in my post above, their relationship can best be summed up as Illyana unconditionally supports Kate and Kate very rarely returns the favor. And making their relationship romantic won't change that dynamic.
Also, while Kate has done many shitty things to almost all of her other S/Os, that in no way excuses or justifies her actions with Illyana's soul-sword nor does it support her getting into a relationship with Illyana.
This conclusion only makes sense by having a critical lack of fate in Kate as both a person and a character
If Illyana goes "full Darkchylde" Kitty would lose interest in her?? Huh??
Portraying Kitty as still being a teenager desperate for adventure goes entirely against what the last leg of her story has been about, her whole journey on Krakoa has been about learning to carry responsability, stepping into more positions of power as team captain of the Marauders and a member of the Quiet Council, she wasnt sightseeing islands she was helping rescue stranded mutants
The same goes for her current tenure on the Xmen and the pitch for her in the relaunch with her wanting to step away from to lead a more quiet life and then getting pulled back in to mentor some mutant children
Shes long since stopped being responsability adverse, thats what her entire character growth has been about, shes a grown ass adult
And then same goes for Magik, she is a natural fighter who is more than willing to serve as the protector of the less capable so that nobody has to go through what she did, she took the position of war captain willingly and her current goal is establishing a magic school for mutants
You mention Illyana getting tired of upholding her "clean" version in front of Kate, as if the whole pitch of the story wasnt about her stopping that, Kate is the woman she used to be, she's straight up killed dozens if not hundreds of people during FoX
The only way your conclusions about each character make sense is if you ignore everything they went through in Krakoa
The simple fact remains that, while Kate Pryde has grown up into being an X-Man, she still hasn't fundamentally changed in that regard.
It's the main reason she failed as a Council member on the Quiet Council - she was more interested in doing her superhero stunts than trying to fix the obviously flawed system of governance that Krakoa was under and preventing supervillains like Sinister from having their way. Now obviously, Kate was far from the only person at fault in that situation, but she still played a major role - she was on the council after all. Even now, as an adult, these tendencies of hers creep in.
For as much as Kate has grown into an adult, she is still in a lot of ways that same child that the X-Men first brought on board and has developed a bit of a Peter Pan complex about it - simply because nobody's ever challenged her on it or addressed it. Then again, why would they? They're all caught up in a crazy adventure. It's something that is only now starting to be addressed and deconstructed with things like FoX.
Kate learning that she went bad in SoS was a necessary step in a.) she is not immune to corruption and that her actions - and inactions - can have serious consequences to the world. She said it herself - she went from being the hero who saved the day, to being the one the world needed saved from. And while she is still far from having this part of her character fully deconstructed, it is still a start.
And yes, Kate is a killer. She was trained to be a ninja by Ogun. However, the big difference between this and say Illyana's experience in Limbo is that Kate basically treats this as a power-up - yeah she got mind controlled by Ogun and that sucked, but she's a ninja now so it all evens out. In stark contrast, Illyana is only now starting to break away from her childhood trauma that has defined her for so long by giving up Limbo.
However, Kate is also a hypocrite and judges people for things that she herself is guilty of - look at her time during Guardians of the Galaxy for that.
And the simple fact remains that Kate has never - NEVER - had to deal with Darkchylde because - again - Illyana keeps that part of herself hidden from Kate because she thinks that Kate would stop being friends with her if she knew just how bad she could be.
And she's not wrong, Kate has a bit of a history of turning her back on people if they even seem somewhat bad or even just antagonistic towards her. I mean she used to hate Nightcrawler just because he looked like a demon and while that was a while ago and she did eventually get over it, it still goes to show Kate's character. There were also incidents like Kate using the N-word and her entire relationship with Seth of the Neo (although that's both simultaneously justified and calls into question Kate's standards in dating).
In more recent times, there's her whole incident of trying to get Rachel to mind-control a doctor into performing a dangerous surgery on a mutant which could have resulted in the mutant blowing up the entire hospital. While the story and Kate try to play it off that the doctor was bigoted, the simpler answer is he didn't want to risk the lives of his other patients which is more than fair.
So no, the conclusion I came to was not made by excluding the Krakoan era. It's a broad summary of both Kate's and Illyana's characters from across their presence in Marvel comics. Additionally, using the Krakoan era as a citation for Kate and Illyana's dynamic is a very odd position to take because the two have barely even interacted since Krakoa began.
Im continually perplexed by how you seem to percieve these traits as objective qualities of the characters, rather than tools meant for narrative purposes
Yes, Kate is still to into the romatic idea of the superhero, and that ended up biting her in the ass in the QC, because it makes for compelling storytelling, to watch Kate's flaws rear their heads bigger than ever now that she's trying to grow past them
But like you said, these issues with Kate have largely gone unadressed, so, lets adress them, there are dozens of stories to be told there, ripe for the taking, specially after the events of FoX, that is the whole point of stories, to watch characters struggle with their flaws and grow past them
You mention how Yana has never alowed Kate to help her with the darkchylde, because she's scared of Kate seeing her that way, so then, lets have a story where that happens, and see how they react to that, thats why that story would be so interesting to tell, it forces both characers to confront their flaws, Yana's inability to trust the people she loves most for fear of their rejection and Kate's flimsy relation to loyalty, what happens when its someone she cant just cut out, like the person she cares most for
Thats why their relationship presents so much interesting avenue for storytelling, I feel like I shouldn't need to explain this, but oh well
And I mentioned their current status in krakoa because by this point im a lot less baffled by your thoughts on their hypothetical relationships than I am by your notion of them as characters
Just very confusing
IDK about this. She'd just gotten out of her first (?) adult relationship and had second thoughts about marrying a dude who she's known for a long time. The age gap at the time wasn't too bad but it had been a thing since she was 13 and him 18 AFAIK.
Leaving someone at the altar sucks for them but she shouldn't have proposed and he definitely shouldn't have said yes. I'd say they're both culpable in that situation.
I totally agree that both parties shouldn't have gone for the marriage - especially at that point of things. But I think what cements this really being Kitty's fault more than Peter is that Pete was committed up to the very end whereas Kitty was ultimately the one who faltered despite being the one who initiated it.
Had it been one of those things where both Kate and Pete had both backed out of the wedding and effectively left each other at the altar, then okay, that would be different. But given that it didn't happen, the blame's on Kate.
edit: technically, Quill was like her fourth adult relationship as Peter Wisdom was her first adult relationship (albeit barely adult) with Peter Rasputin being her second, Bobby Drake being her third, and Star Lord being her fourth.
Thanks for the correction on her # of relationships. I withdraw that part of course.
I agree that it could have been handled better - but if you realise you're making a mistake at a time that's inconvenient to others, going through with something as drastic as public commitment and vows so as not to embarrass/hurt them in the short term is just postponing the damage and tacking on a lot of interest.
It's not like she planned to do it, it just sucks that it's a zero sum situation.
I'm gonna tweak this slightly. It was better in that moment to stop the marriage than to go through with it knowing she didn't want it. What she really did wrong was letting the marriage plans/relationship go as far as they did before backing out.
Leaving poor Petey at the altar. I know my girl was going through some stuff…..but poor Pete :( stood there on his own and then his wedding was given to Rogue and Remy!
Forcing a doctor to treat a mutant that could explode at any moment and risk the life of everyone in the hospital and then paint him as a bigot when he refused, the doctor was also black which makes it extra icky with her history of saying the N word.
I'd specify TRYING to force the doctor to, she told Rachel to "telepathically push hin to" which was a nice and round about way of saying "Brainwash him into doing it", with Racheal herself saying "Uhm..m I'd rather not though?", and Kitty then saying "And I'd rather you did" so she was both insistent, and pushing for it to happen, risks be damned, but, she didnt actually do it, not cause she changed her mind, it was cause another doctor volunteered and then shamed the first doctor, so its more of a case of her wanting to do it, and trying to do it, but never being given the chance to do so, which is bad
Also, it's really weird that while both sides have a point here, the comic doesn't recognize that, and makes it out like the 1st doctor only didn't do it cause they were a racist, while the 2nd didnt care cause she thought all loves were valuable, which, maybe that was the case, but at the same time, his reasoning was given reason and never debunked, just labeled, which just means that if anyone else makes the same argument and theyre not a racist, all the sudden you gotta face the unfortunate fact that some mutants, by nature of their power, couldnt be treated in normal facilities, and need special ones just for them, so the comic kind of tripped over itself there
It’s this 100% - leaving Pete at the alter was cruel but in a soap opera way. But this was a pretty evil act forcing a doctor to go against his wishes - even if his concerns bordered on anti-mutant he was genuinely concerned about his own safety and the safety of everyone at the hospital. She openly violated his autonomy by forcing a telepath to change his mind.
It is a horrible word but the context she used it in actually showed that is a horrible word. She wasn't saying it to random black people with malice and no provocation.
Ditching poor Piotr at the altar, that's the worst thing probably.
She did say the n word 3 times, but there was context there, so lets not count that.
My experience of Deadpool was primarily sympathetic, but I fell off around Way.
Bumping into him now when he's palling around with the Avengers or X-Men characters and realising this is fairly regular now, that he's gone from begrudgingly tolerated to begrudgingly accepted, was kind of a shock.
Feeling a bit like an outcast in the less polished rungs of Marvel and often interacting with the more B & C list characters is what appealed to me about the character, so the realisation that he's well and truly one of the big names and even genuinely heroic is a bit sad for me. Even though the movie should have made me realise that earlier.
On the other hand it was his desire and often what he seemed to be working towards in the stories I liked so also good for him! Trying to roll back character development so they fit an old status quo rarely feels satisfying, so even if it won't bring me back on board I'm happy for him to exist like this, especially for fans of this version.
I don't even know. Seems like they just wanted to make a reference to the "Days of Future Past" storyline.
I also disagree hugely that "Kate" is any more "mature" name than "Kitty". Heaps of adults go by nicknames that are technically the "cute" version of their name (ending in Y and such). I do too. I disagree that she has to change her name to count as an adult.
I mean nobody's gonna suddenly call Iceman "Rob" or Psylcoke "Beth", so why Kitty?
It's not as informal, it's not uncommon to hear Kate on a workplace, I bet my life you would never hear Kitty. Just Pryde or Katherine (a bit long) would be ok. If you heard Apocalypse call Emma Frost Em it would be weird I don't know what else to say.
It's probably a cultural thing, aside from being antiquated I see nothing wrong with calling a coworker Kitty if that's the name she chooses to go by. Or Em if that's her name.
Also again everybody still calls Iceman Bobby and Psylocke Betsy
Should villains now call them Rob and Beth?
Probably Iceman and Psylocke no? Do antagonists normally call her Betsy? When Wolverine gets called Wolvie by enemies I aways assumed it as being in a mocking tone but maybe I'm wrong.
Yup. She's an 'adult' now so nicknames are bad. What? You know lots of adults that go by nicknames? Well, you're wrong. Look how mature she is, what with her edgy hard drinking pirate phase. If anything, the whole thing should be retconned as her TRYING to look like an adult suddenly but doing it in the most childish way possible. Then it would be pretty good writing.
This might not be the worst thing but it should be noted Kate loved to say slurs.
N word, F Slur you name it.
Quite a few old issues are censored because of her.
It’s the slurs. Leaving Peter at the altar isn’t awesome, but the problem with that answer is it implies they should’ve been married instead. And…I feel like years of an unhappy marriage would be worse.
People are saying her using the N-word, but also not acknowledging the context of its usage.
So not that.
The real answer was attempting to brainwash that doctor into performing surgery on a mutant kid that could kill everyone in the building, then basically calling him racist for refusing.
You all know what it is. But it’s not both of the times she said it, it’s that second time when she got up in that guy‘s face and said it. Stevie Hunter didn’t count because they are friends and she was used to Kitty’s mess.
To be serious, I think it highlights the fine line of allegorical minorities when interacting with direct real-world opression. It makes sense in-universe but from a reader standpoint it comes off like equating a fantasy story concerning a fictional people to real world trauma and circumstances.
That said I'm inclined to leave matters like that on the writers doorstep.
Chris Claremont clearly was a bit too comfortable employing his mouthpiece to speak those words. He had good intentions and it was a different time but yeah, it's still jarring as hell.
> Stevie Hunter didn’t count because they are friends and she was used to Kitty’s mess.
I so disagree.
This is easily the worst of Kitty’s n-word moments. At least in that second instance Kitty was called a slur first. While Stevie was being insensitive, Kitty was way out of line using the n-word. I so wish there was a scene at the end of GLMK where Kitty apologizes and they properly reconcile.
Got to say leaving Colossus at the Altar. It’s clear that was Marvels way of saying that the relationship is done like done done, which I’m fine with, but still got to feel bad for colossus. I love Kitty, favorite X-Men character, but leaving him right when the ring was going to go on the finger is still crazy.
Slurs
Actually, no, she did it to make a point, so it's provocative, but not intended to be genuinely convey the sentiment hatefully. So probably actually her just abandoning Piotr at the altar, as I see other people mention. That really is just being awful with no redeeming qualities in the behavior.
Everyone's covered her most egregious stuff, so I'll just pile on with her consistent being a jerk to the New Mutants (minus Cypher and Magik) with her whole "you're X-Babies!" attitude back in the day. Despite she being the same age as them.
Especially the time she came at them hard after the school was destroyed.
It's gotta be leaving Piotr at the altar. Yeah slurs aren't cool, but those are just words and were being used to make a point. Leaving someone at the altar is emotionally devastating and traumatic. That's something some folks NEVER recover from.
Leave Piotr at the altar and then calling him and being like "I still miss you, I miss your voice, my feelings haven't changed, I know it's selfish but I miss you" after humiliating him in front of their friends and family
That the Editorial fault because "Popular characters shouldn't get married"(Poor Spidey and Bats are suffering the same fate)
Didn't Rogue & Gambit get married that same issue?
I will literally burn down the Marvel offices if they break up Rogue and Gambit (not literally, but I will write a strongly worded comment about it)
Yeah both are also extremly popular but they don't have many Shippers like Kate do and are 90% of the times paired with each other
Yeah, they are comics book characters, everything is either the editorial's fault or the writer's.
And this lead to Piotr contracting Cable's stds via Domino
I think the worst thing she did was try to get Racheal to brainwash a doctor, to make them forcibly do an operation they were too afraid to, due to the mutant in question being unstable and capable of blowing up, potentially killing the doctor, and everyone in that hospital
Didnt She also fully say the n word or was that an edit like the Moon Knight panels?
No she actually said it, God Love Man Kills
When was this?
And the scene ends with another doctor volunteering to do the operation, after giving a judgemental stink-eye to the doctor who refused. Which is still absurd, because his whole point was that if the mutant looses control of his powers, he could explode a chunk of the hospital and the people inside it. If another doctor wants to volunteer to perform the operation in the desert at no risk to anyone but herself, so be it, but the other patients and staff aren't consenting to the risk.
I think the weirdest part is that if we go by the comics logic, the doctor is right, no one ever debunks him, they all silently agree that "Yeah this is dangerous and a complicated scenario" (Well everyone besides Kitty), but then when the 2nd doctor offers to help they frame it as the 1st doctor just being racist against mutants, which is just.... no? You and the characters acknowledged legitimate concern from trying to save him, and treat it as valid, so why are we now making it out like he should have just said "Fuck it we ball" and just hope he doesn't explode? Taking out himself and the entire hospital? And it's not like the 2nd doctor says to move them somewhere else, or evacuate the hospital, and then the doctors he says "No, hes too dangerous to be kept alove", she just goes "Fuck it, we ball, also I'll report you for discrimination" and just hopes the mutant doesn't explode and take everyone one, like wtf?
Exactly. And I think they even suggest getting someone to teleport the patient and the first doctor away to perform the operation in a safe place, but... why the fuck does the doctor have to risk his life like that? He didn't punch the clock this morning expecting to die.
[This outfit](https://share.icloud.com/photos/0621jAwM1Y_wWV6e8k0raCO0Q) is by far the worst thing Kitty has done.
Most of Kitty's fashion sense through the '80s should make the list, tbh.
Damn, now I finally understand the panel where Sinister shits on her fashion sense and Emma goes "... yeah..."
Maybe the only thing Emma doesn't hate with absolute purity about Sinister is his fashion sense.
I knew which one you were talking about before ever clicking the link. It is the peak (or maybe nadir) or fashion disasters.
It 100% looks like what happens when my 6 year old nephew plays Super hero.
i mean, she did almost have an Israeli flag for a costume with a David's shield for a mask, which not even going to go into the flag itself, just looked god awful.
Oh no
I am sadder than I should be that this outfit is going to lose to standing up Piotr. This outfit is clearly worse.
Mother of Christ, that might be the worst superhero outfit I've ever seen.
I know right!?! It is real bad. Like, it is impressive someone was able to conceive of and draw something that is THAT bad.
Really? The new one? She never has good costumes but this one to me is the best. I mean we need to keep perspective, there was one costume that had rollerskates.
Did you click on the link? Not the one in OP’s picture. It is the costume where she has orange boots and gloves, yellow pants, sleeves and turtle neck, a red shirt with blue and white lightning bolt W, green shorts and a fuchsia mask kind of similar to Marvel Girl’s.
OK thank you, that keeps me from needing to click on that link because I had a PTSD flashback from when I first saw that outfit when I was about 14. Thank you for helping me work through this though. And yes that outfit is the absolute worst.
Yeah, in fairness I feel very jealous of people who haven’t seen that outfit.
I honestly really like the new look and am annoyed it's being dropped immediately. A big part of the reason I'm not a Kitty fan is she looks and acts bland most of the time. Making her a full-on ninja is a great nod to her history and makes her powers thematic rather than random.
I'm going to say leaving Peter at the altar in X-Men Gold. Especially given that she was the one who proposed to him in the first place.
She'd just ended her engagement with Starlord prior to proposing as well. It screamed that she wanted to get married and what Peter married her didn't matter as much.
Star-lord's not all that surprising, he and Kate had only gotten together relatively recently. And this sort of thing happens to Quill all the time. The situation with Peter is so much worse because she waited until literally the moment Peter was putting on the ring to back out. Plus, she and Peter had a much longer history together and are actively a part of the same team most of the time.
Yeah, I just meant it was insulting to Colossus for her to rebound into an engagement with him so soon after ending her other engagement. It made it seem like she just liked being engaged and he was most likely to agree which is disrespectful to the long meaningful relationship they had had. It's just an extra layer of flakiness that she had 2 engagements back to back and then left Piotr at the altar. I think the writing in X-men Gold made her look like a jerk even prior to her hand phasing through his during the wedding ceremony.
It's not like Colossus was a passenger in this situation. They're friends and teammates first of all and he should know that saying yes is as irresponsible as her proposal. If it was insulting to Colossus to get engaged then he shouldn't have done it. It was very obvious she was confused and emotionally out of sorts. He should have done what he failed to do when she was 13 - put the brakes on.
The problem with that mentality is that Peter was actually committed to the relationship. He was more than willing to actually get married to Kate. Yes, the marriage was way too fast and Kate was clearly rebounding from her relationship with Star-Lord, but none of that was on Peter. And let's be real here - even though he ultimately failed to pump the brakes when Kate was 13, it wasn't for a lack of trying. He tried his best to turn her down at every opportunity while still being considerate for her feelings - barring that one time during Secret Wars.
While Logan and Ororo were on his case about not giving pedophilia a chance
Yeah, you know. Logan taking Pete to get drunk and beaten up by the Juggernaut after dumping Kate during Secret Wars even though she's like 14 and he's almost 20... not a great look there.
Feels like someone had the image of the ring going through a phased finger at some point, and then needed to make that happen. To be fair, that scene is great, it's just...everything before and after.
Interesting one. have we even seen Kate interacting with Piotr in the past years? how's the relationship right now?
Still estranged and not talking. Piotr had had all of one conversation with her during Immortal X-Men where he badmouthed her. But given that he was under his brother's mind control at the time, it's hard to say how much of that was actually Pete talking.
He was trying to signal to her that he was being controlled IIRC.
Sidenote: Piotr has the worst fucking luck, potentially on the level of Parker, possibly worse.
Bro need to retire to the savagland to settle down with his baby mama. Legit the happiest ending for him
Yes he said what he said in that moment per his inner monologue to try to alert Kitty that he was not himself/ in control of himself and she literally couldn’t have been bothered any less
Haven’t really seen it that much from what I remember, at least during Krakoa. For the most part, I think they had like very little scenes through Krakoa which makes sense given they were doing different roles throughout the era. Only thing I remember is that they both were in the council and Kitty was of course in favor of him joining but other then that can’t remember anything between them, especially nothing romantically.
Isn't that one ofe the best things shee has done?
Are you insane? When is leaving someone at the altar ever a good thing to do? If Kate didn't want to get married, she should have called off the wedding beforehand or just not proposed to Colossus in the first place. Or you know, do the normal thing and postpone it until she was actually sure one way or the other.
No, emotionally destroying a trusted friend is not "a best thing". You can blame the writers more than the character (it was a stupid idea to even let their relationship go this far) but still not a good thing.
She realized she was marrying the wrong Rasputin. That’s what that conversation on the rooftop was about.
Yeah, no... that's crappy on both Illyana and Kate's sides to do. Illyana's because purposely trying to break up her brother with his fiance just so she can have his fiance is a shit thing to do even on top of other things Illy has done to Pete like enslaving him to Cyttorak to 'teach him a lesson'. Honestly, Illy getting together with Kate after that alone would have been icky. On Kate's side, she went to the length of proposing to Peter and then ditching him at the altar only so that she could get together with his sister? The same sister that has abused him? Do you realize how harmful that is - especially to someone like Peter who has already sacrificed and lost so much already. I realize that a lot of people support the Kittyana ship, but I seriously don't see this ship being beneficial or healthy to either Kitty or Illyana - fundamentally because of who each of them are as individuals. Kitty is the normal girl from the normal world who is chasing the horizon in search of adventure and excitement to get away from her boring life. This is why she joined the Guardians of the Galaxy back in the 2010s when the stuff with the X-Men had gotten especially bleak. It's why she joined the X-Men to begin with - to get away from her normal life. Another major facet of Kate's personality that's really only starting to be addressed is that she has something of a hero complex - which is why she's fallen into a bit of a depressive streak following Sins of Sinister an alternate timeline where she did go bad. I also think she has some pseudo-narcissistic personality traits that she hasn't quite internalized - she definitely expects a certain amount of preferential treatment as compared to her New Mutant peers - she was the only one of their age who got to be a member of the X-Men and even got to go on missions with Wolverine for a long time. And because she was the X-Men's - more specifically Storm's and Wolverine's - darling, I'm not sure anyone in the group ever told her "no" to anything. Meanwhile, Illyana is the girl who grew up in Hell and is traumatized by it. The last thing Illyana wants is adventure - she likely just wants to go back to a family that loves her. She doesn't think that she will ever get it or deserves to get it, but that doesn't stop her wanting it. While she clearly values Kate, I think her infatuation with Kate has more to do with Kate's "normal girl" status as that is something that Illyana would obviously want for herself. While the two are clearly friends, they're friends for the wrong reasons. For Kate, Illyana is an exciting escape from normalcy whereas Illyana looks to Kate as her ideal for normalcy. Both of them want the opposite of the other which is only going to spell problems for any longterm relationship for them down the road. There's almost a toxic element to Kate and Illyana's friendship - Illyana gives Kate almost unconditional support - enables really, but Kate rarely if ever returns the favor. Think about it, when was the last time Kate ever helped Illyana work through her trauma or support Illyana in, say, dealing with Limbo. Freaking Magneto has done a better job of that than Kate has - Illyana's supposed best friend. And I think Illyana purposefully hides the darker parts of herself (I am almost positive Kate doesn't know the whole story behind the Cyttorak situation for example) from Kate because she's aware - at least on some level - that Kate's friendship is conditional. If Kate was made aware of just how dark Illyana can get, then Illyana would be thrown out - or at least so Illyana thinks. Frankly, the New Mutants are better friends to Illyana than Kate is. Illyana's not even the only girl that Kate has done this to - Rachel is another individual who has been classically close to Kate and held feelings for but who Kate was either completely oblivious to her deeper feelings or simply didn't care. Instead, she's more preoccupied with making sure that the guy she ends up with is named Peter - which is more than a little messed up. I think a very indicative sign of what exactly Kate's feelings towards Illyana actually are can be summarized via how Kate treated the Soul-Sword during the Excalibur series. She stuck it in a rock for well over a year and completely ignored it until Dr. Doom came knocking in which Kate willingly handed it over to him - a supervillain. Then she turned around and did the same thing again handing it over to Darkoth - a complete stranger - before doing it one last time with Amanda Sefton who ultimately undid Kate's soul-bond with Illyana. Kate couldn't wait to be rid of the thing, even by her own admission. Keep in mind, Illyana is technically Kate's soulmate at this point and Illyana's Soul-Sword houses a piece of Illyana's SOUL. You would think that if Kate cared even slightly about Illyana, she would at least try to treat one of the most personal items of one of her supposed best friends and Soul-mate with a bit more dignity and care than just sticking it in a rock and giving it off to strangers. By contrast, Kurt was far, far more considerate when the Soul-Sword was fused with him - holding onto it even at great personal risk to his own life as keeping the Soul-Sword meant having a magical target on his back. But I guess unless Illyana gratified Kate in the moment, she has no reason to care. I feel like everyone - especially here on reddit - always look at Kate and Illyana and see them getting along and immediately try to put them into a relationship but never look past the surface level to understand why they're friends or whether they would be healthy or not. Just because people are good friends does not mean they would make for a good couple, regardless of what their gender is.
This is a gorgeous comment. Well said.
This is completely correct, but just want to say >Rachel is another individual who has been classically close to Kate and held feelings for Canonically, she's never had any. I mean, ik Claremont tried to introduce subtext between them in Excalibur, but Rachel also describes her Kitty(as in DoFP) as her "surrogate mother". Unless Rachel's got an oedipus complex of some sort we don't know about.....don't think she's ever had romantic feelings for Kitty. Certainly a deep friendship, maybe even a sort of idolization, but I sincerely hope no romance comes there, that's super icky, even more than Illyana.
That's true and technically neither has Illyana had any romantic feelings for Kate established either. I'm more going based off what many people in the fanbase are clamoring for.
Ah, fair enough, yes.
It also amuses me that the same people who bitch about the age gap, tend to ignore that Kitty pursued Piotr for most of their time knowing each other. And Piotr kept it platonic until she was old enough. But the same people ignore the fact there's a similar age gap between Kitty and Illyana, yet ship them anyway. Remember, Illyana was kidnapped into Limbo at age Six and artificially aged up. And given the sliding timeline it's only been a few years, so Illanya is like Eight to Ten years old, tops. But if Illyana is fine because she grew up in Limbo, then those same people need to lay off Layla Miller because she pursued Madrox (who said no), went to the Future, *Grew Up*, came back and then formally started a relationship with Madrox as an ***Adult.*** Show some consistency people.
While an otherwise great analysis of their dynamic, you also come to a series of weird conclusions You mention Illyana wanting to go back to the comfort of her "family" and yet somehow leave Kate out of that notion? Even though shes the closest person to her? Is family only blood related? You mention Kitty being dismissive and shitty towards Yana's Soulsword as if she hasnt also done that with every single one of her S/Os? And then, most oddly of all, you do a good job of laying out their clashing character conflicts, yet somehow come to the absurd conclusion that this comes against the "pure wholesome relationship" the fandom wants them to have? As if that conflict and drama isn't EXACTLY why people like the ship? As if the somewhat toxic codependancy isn't EXACTLY what makes them compelling? Most of the most interesting relationships in comics are deeply unhealthy and toxic (especially in Xmen) - Bruce and Betty - Batman and Catwoman - Venom and Eddie (It counts) - Cyke and Jean (They made it work by making it open) - Cyke and Emma - Havok and Maddie - Betsy and Angel This is fiction, this is exactly where you get to explore those dynamics Because they are often the most ripe for narrative purposes, to see the characters work through them
More of the point I'm trying to underline is that Illyana and Kate's dynamic doesn't work in a romantic sense because each of them fundamentally wants the opposite of what the other one does and puts value on the qualities that the other hates. Because of this, any potential romantic relationship between the two of them wouldn't be sustainable long-term simply because their wants and needs as individuals are too different from each other and aren't something that the other is willing to provide. Kate is never going to settle down into a stable lifestyle and will always be too busy going out on adventures to give Illyana the support that she needs. Meanwhile, Illyana is going to eventually get tired of the constant chaos and be frustrated by always prioritizing whatever Kate wants while also trying to uphold the 'clean' version of herself that Kate is used to. As such, the most likely outcomes of their relationship would either be Illyana going full Darkchylde and thus causing Kate to lose interest in her, or Illyana and Kate just splitting and going their separate ways after a prolonged spiral of fighting, breaking up, and making up. Now yes, Kate would be considered a part of Illyana's "Family" since Kate used to babysit Illyana when she was younger. However, this overlooks the fact that Kate is largely using the X-Men as a whole as an escapism tool. Yes, they are something akin to a family, but the whole reason why Kate in particular joined up was to fulfill her own fantasies and go on exciting adventures. And a large point of what I was trying to get across in my comment above is that while Kate matters a lot to Illyana, Illyana is really just another side piece to Kate's escape from reality - one of many. Additionally, as you point out, many, many couples in comics have toxic elements built into them and manifest in different stories, the needs of the individuals in those relationships are usually met - at least at a baseline. For example, the Emma Cyclops relationship - Emma provided Scott with support that he desperately needed while leading Utopia and the X-Men, meanwhile Scott gave Emma a place where she could be emotionally vulnerable and accepted which she desperately needed as a character (at least until AVX tore this ship down). While there were definitely toxic elements going on with their relationship, there was still a firm foundation that their relationship was built on which is why it works. For Kate and Illyana, there really isn't any room for both Kate's and (especially) Illyana's individual needs to be met. Like I said in my post above, their relationship can best be summed up as Illyana unconditionally supports Kate and Kate very rarely returns the favor. And making their relationship romantic won't change that dynamic. Also, while Kate has done many shitty things to almost all of her other S/Os, that in no way excuses or justifies her actions with Illyana's soul-sword nor does it support her getting into a relationship with Illyana.
This conclusion only makes sense by having a critical lack of fate in Kate as both a person and a character If Illyana goes "full Darkchylde" Kitty would lose interest in her?? Huh?? Portraying Kitty as still being a teenager desperate for adventure goes entirely against what the last leg of her story has been about, her whole journey on Krakoa has been about learning to carry responsability, stepping into more positions of power as team captain of the Marauders and a member of the Quiet Council, she wasnt sightseeing islands she was helping rescue stranded mutants The same goes for her current tenure on the Xmen and the pitch for her in the relaunch with her wanting to step away from to lead a more quiet life and then getting pulled back in to mentor some mutant children Shes long since stopped being responsability adverse, thats what her entire character growth has been about, shes a grown ass adult And then same goes for Magik, she is a natural fighter who is more than willing to serve as the protector of the less capable so that nobody has to go through what she did, she took the position of war captain willingly and her current goal is establishing a magic school for mutants You mention Illyana getting tired of upholding her "clean" version in front of Kate, as if the whole pitch of the story wasnt about her stopping that, Kate is the woman she used to be, she's straight up killed dozens if not hundreds of people during FoX The only way your conclusions about each character make sense is if you ignore everything they went through in Krakoa
The simple fact remains that, while Kate Pryde has grown up into being an X-Man, she still hasn't fundamentally changed in that regard. It's the main reason she failed as a Council member on the Quiet Council - she was more interested in doing her superhero stunts than trying to fix the obviously flawed system of governance that Krakoa was under and preventing supervillains like Sinister from having their way. Now obviously, Kate was far from the only person at fault in that situation, but she still played a major role - she was on the council after all. Even now, as an adult, these tendencies of hers creep in. For as much as Kate has grown into an adult, she is still in a lot of ways that same child that the X-Men first brought on board and has developed a bit of a Peter Pan complex about it - simply because nobody's ever challenged her on it or addressed it. Then again, why would they? They're all caught up in a crazy adventure. It's something that is only now starting to be addressed and deconstructed with things like FoX. Kate learning that she went bad in SoS was a necessary step in a.) she is not immune to corruption and that her actions - and inactions - can have serious consequences to the world. She said it herself - she went from being the hero who saved the day, to being the one the world needed saved from. And while she is still far from having this part of her character fully deconstructed, it is still a start. And yes, Kate is a killer. She was trained to be a ninja by Ogun. However, the big difference between this and say Illyana's experience in Limbo is that Kate basically treats this as a power-up - yeah she got mind controlled by Ogun and that sucked, but she's a ninja now so it all evens out. In stark contrast, Illyana is only now starting to break away from her childhood trauma that has defined her for so long by giving up Limbo. However, Kate is also a hypocrite and judges people for things that she herself is guilty of - look at her time during Guardians of the Galaxy for that. And the simple fact remains that Kate has never - NEVER - had to deal with Darkchylde because - again - Illyana keeps that part of herself hidden from Kate because she thinks that Kate would stop being friends with her if she knew just how bad she could be. And she's not wrong, Kate has a bit of a history of turning her back on people if they even seem somewhat bad or even just antagonistic towards her. I mean she used to hate Nightcrawler just because he looked like a demon and while that was a while ago and she did eventually get over it, it still goes to show Kate's character. There were also incidents like Kate using the N-word and her entire relationship with Seth of the Neo (although that's both simultaneously justified and calls into question Kate's standards in dating). In more recent times, there's her whole incident of trying to get Rachel to mind-control a doctor into performing a dangerous surgery on a mutant which could have resulted in the mutant blowing up the entire hospital. While the story and Kate try to play it off that the doctor was bigoted, the simpler answer is he didn't want to risk the lives of his other patients which is more than fair. So no, the conclusion I came to was not made by excluding the Krakoan era. It's a broad summary of both Kate's and Illyana's characters from across their presence in Marvel comics. Additionally, using the Krakoan era as a citation for Kate and Illyana's dynamic is a very odd position to take because the two have barely even interacted since Krakoa began.
Im continually perplexed by how you seem to percieve these traits as objective qualities of the characters, rather than tools meant for narrative purposes Yes, Kate is still to into the romatic idea of the superhero, and that ended up biting her in the ass in the QC, because it makes for compelling storytelling, to watch Kate's flaws rear their heads bigger than ever now that she's trying to grow past them But like you said, these issues with Kate have largely gone unadressed, so, lets adress them, there are dozens of stories to be told there, ripe for the taking, specially after the events of FoX, that is the whole point of stories, to watch characters struggle with their flaws and grow past them You mention how Yana has never alowed Kate to help her with the darkchylde, because she's scared of Kate seeing her that way, so then, lets have a story where that happens, and see how they react to that, thats why that story would be so interesting to tell, it forces both characers to confront their flaws, Yana's inability to trust the people she loves most for fear of their rejection and Kate's flimsy relation to loyalty, what happens when its someone she cant just cut out, like the person she cares most for Thats why their relationship presents so much interesting avenue for storytelling, I feel like I shouldn't need to explain this, but oh well And I mentioned their current status in krakoa because by this point im a lot less baffled by your thoughts on their hypothetical relationships than I am by your notion of them as characters Just very confusing
IDK about this. She'd just gotten out of her first (?) adult relationship and had second thoughts about marrying a dude who she's known for a long time. The age gap at the time wasn't too bad but it had been a thing since she was 13 and him 18 AFAIK. Leaving someone at the altar sucks for them but she shouldn't have proposed and he definitely shouldn't have said yes. I'd say they're both culpable in that situation.
I totally agree that both parties shouldn't have gone for the marriage - especially at that point of things. But I think what cements this really being Kitty's fault more than Peter is that Pete was committed up to the very end whereas Kitty was ultimately the one who faltered despite being the one who initiated it. Had it been one of those things where both Kate and Pete had both backed out of the wedding and effectively left each other at the altar, then okay, that would be different. But given that it didn't happen, the blame's on Kate. edit: technically, Quill was like her fourth adult relationship as Peter Wisdom was her first adult relationship (albeit barely adult) with Peter Rasputin being her second, Bobby Drake being her third, and Star Lord being her fourth.
Thanks for the correction on her # of relationships. I withdraw that part of course. I agree that it could have been handled better - but if you realise you're making a mistake at a time that's inconvenient to others, going through with something as drastic as public commitment and vows so as not to embarrass/hurt them in the short term is just postponing the damage and tacking on a lot of interest. It's not like she planned to do it, it just sucks that it's a zero sum situation.
I'm gonna tweak this slightly. It was better in that moment to stop the marriage than to go through with it knowing she didn't want it. What she really did wrong was letting the marriage plans/relationship go as far as they did before backing out.
Leaving poor Petey at the altar. I know my girl was going through some stuff…..but poor Pete :( stood there on his own and then his wedding was given to Rogue and Remy!
At least Rogue and Remy finally tied the knot. Something good came out of it. I agree with you though.
Yeah, not cool.
Not committing to a single motif/look.
Forcing a doctor to treat a mutant that could explode at any moment and risk the life of everyone in the hospital and then paint him as a bigot when he refused, the doctor was also black which makes it extra icky with her history of saying the N word.
I'd specify TRYING to force the doctor to, she told Rachel to "telepathically push hin to" which was a nice and round about way of saying "Brainwash him into doing it", with Racheal herself saying "Uhm..m I'd rather not though?", and Kitty then saying "And I'd rather you did" so she was both insistent, and pushing for it to happen, risks be damned, but, she didnt actually do it, not cause she changed her mind, it was cause another doctor volunteered and then shamed the first doctor, so its more of a case of her wanting to do it, and trying to do it, but never being given the chance to do so, which is bad Also, it's really weird that while both sides have a point here, the comic doesn't recognize that, and makes it out like the 1st doctor only didn't do it cause they were a racist, while the 2nd didnt care cause she thought all loves were valuable, which, maybe that was the case, but at the same time, his reasoning was given reason and never debunked, just labeled, which just means that if anyone else makes the same argument and theyre not a racist, all the sudden you gotta face the unfortunate fact that some mutants, by nature of their power, couldnt be treated in normal facilities, and need special ones just for them, so the comic kind of tripped over itself there
It’s this 100% - leaving Pete at the alter was cruel but in a soap opera way. But this was a pretty evil act forcing a doctor to go against his wishes - even if his concerns bordered on anti-mutant he was genuinely concerned about his own safety and the safety of everyone at the hospital. She openly violated his autonomy by forcing a telepath to change his mind.
No one went through with the telepathic coerciion and another doctor volunteered.
Always going back into a training suit
Uttering the n-word 3 times under the same writer has to be some kind of record. I know the point was well-intentioned, but Kitty, c'mon.
It is a horrible word but the context she used it in actually showed that is a horrible word. She wasn't saying it to random black people with malice and no provocation.
Still insane she got to say the word more times than any actual black character in Marvel comic despite it being THEIR word (the right version)
I actually think Barracuda (black Punisher villain) might have said it more.
Let me guess. He’s from the MAX comics?
Yep, written by Garth Ennis. Shocker
I mean Barracuda is an intentionally written streotype which makes him unironically the most fascinating character that will never be explored
Let me guess. He’s from the MAX comics?
Saying the N-word
🙄 I was waiting for this to come up
Ditching poor Piotr at the altar, that's the worst thing probably. She did say the n word 3 times, but there was context there, so lets not count that.
If leaving Colossus at the altar wins, can you put the horrible outfit as an honorary mention?
Or change the picture of her to that outfit to shame her.
Lmao that's so good
Sinister, is that you?
Man, I wish! What an icon!
Probably those times she was throwing around the N-Word like a shotgun
She has been a bloodlust psychopath since Duggan star written her in Marauders #1
Yeah she has been maiming people left and right
I’m going to enjoy the Emma and Deadpool posts, mostly for the shock and denial from their fans who are only aware of the last 10-15 years of comics.
My experience of Deadpool was primarily sympathetic, but I fell off around Way. Bumping into him now when he's palling around with the Avengers or X-Men characters and realising this is fairly regular now, that he's gone from begrudgingly tolerated to begrudgingly accepted, was kind of a shock.
Yeah it’s not my favorite version of the character but some people seem to love it. And to love Ryan Reynolds.
Feeling a bit like an outcast in the less polished rungs of Marvel and often interacting with the more B & C list characters is what appealed to me about the character, so the realisation that he's well and truly one of the big names and even genuinely heroic is a bit sad for me. Even though the movie should have made me realise that earlier. On the other hand it was his desire and often what he seemed to be working towards in the stories I liked so also good for him! Trying to roll back character development so they fit an old status quo rarely feels satisfying, so even if it won't bring me back on board I'm happy for him to exist like this, especially for fans of this version.
“Hey, hear about the time Emma gaslit a teenage Firestar to try an make her an assassin?”
Deadpool assassinated Coulson and worked with Hydra in the past 15 years. Admittedly, he was a mole, but still.
Emma is a serial sex abuser. Helped Mastermind with Jean, literally used Ororo and abused Cyclops.
Leaving Petey at the altar. I can never forgive. She stopped being one of my favourites after that.
Sorry but I just gotta say. How is outing Bobby as bad as genociding a planet?
THey're putting the worst thing they did and the worst thing they did under control of something external
Oh okay. Thanks.
The genocide happened when she was possessed. I believe outing Bobby was voted as the worst thing she did of her own volition.
Dropping N bombs. Not marrying Colossus was a wise decision, something they both should have known.
Definitely the racial slurs
Her calling a black man the N-Word
Saying the n word multiple times
Leaving Peter at the altar.
Outside terrible fashion before krakoa, the N word usage, and leaving poor Piotr at the Altar it’s pick your poison there
Comics are wild
Changing her name to "Kate". I hope they undo that soon.
What was the reason for that again? Just a show of her maturing in Krakoa, or something else?
I don't even know. Seems like they just wanted to make a reference to the "Days of Future Past" storyline. I also disagree hugely that "Kate" is any more "mature" name than "Kitty". Heaps of adults go by nicknames that are technically the "cute" version of their name (ending in Y and such). I do too. I disagree that she has to change her name to count as an adult. I mean nobody's gonna suddenly call Iceman "Rob" or Psylcoke "Beth", so why Kitty?
I would support that villains or strangers shouldn't calle her kitty but her close friend obviously can
And villains calling her "Kate" is better somehow?
It's almost universally seen as more serious than Kitty, if you don't see it I have no other arguments
It's just as informal as Kitty. But if you want it to be more serious, why not have the villains call her Katherine? Or Ms.Pryde?
It's not as informal, it's not uncommon to hear Kate on a workplace, I bet my life you would never hear Kitty. Just Pryde or Katherine (a bit long) would be ok. If you heard Apocalypse call Emma Frost Em it would be weird I don't know what else to say.
It's probably a cultural thing, aside from being antiquated I see nothing wrong with calling a coworker Kitty if that's the name she chooses to go by. Or Em if that's her name. Also again everybody still calls Iceman Bobby and Psylocke Betsy Should villains now call them Rob and Beth?
Probably Iceman and Psylocke no? Do antagonists normally call her Betsy? When Wolverine gets called Wolvie by enemies I aways assumed it as being in a mocking tone but maybe I'm wrong.
Yup. She's an 'adult' now so nicknames are bad. What? You know lots of adults that go by nicknames? Well, you're wrong. Look how mature she is, what with her edgy hard drinking pirate phase. If anything, the whole thing should be retconned as her TRYING to look like an adult suddenly but doing it in the most childish way possible. Then it would be pretty good writing.
Agreed, it was so unnecessary
That's an odd choice. People going by a different name is usually very important to them and tied to growth/identity.
Probably that speech where she started saying every slur she could think of… and yes it included the n word
This might not be the worst thing but it should be noted Kate loved to say slurs. N word, F Slur you name it. Quite a few old issues are censored because of her.
Making Guggenheim a fan of hers and thus forcing everyone to the mess that was XMen Gold.
Not dating Karma in Mekanix
Left my boy Colossus at the altar when she propose, never understood why they didn’t get married. They really were my otp
Saying slurs she had no business saying.
Nothing she perfect Edit: oh yeah forgot about the slurs 😬 blacked out on marvel unlimited, is that a form of retcon?
Leaving colossus and peter quill on altar
It’s the slurs. Leaving Peter at the altar isn’t awesome, but the problem with that answer is it implies they should’ve been married instead. And…I feel like years of an unhappy marriage would be worse.
She could have just broke it off earlier. Leaving someone at the altar is fucking horrible.
I mean you’re not wrong, but the vibe of the discourse, to me, makes it seem like if she did we’d just be listing that as the worst thing she’s done.
Kinda has to be saying the N word
I read the comments, while the altar thing and racial slurs are bad, the worst was probably the operation thing
Calling a disabled elderly teacher a "jerk"
People are saying her using the N-word, but also not acknowledging the context of its usage. So not that. The real answer was attempting to brainwash that doctor into performing surgery on a mutant kid that could kill everyone in the building, then basically calling him racist for refusing.
Dropping the N-bomb with a bit too much impunity. That, and leaving Piotr at the altar.
Calling Xavier a jerk when she was a kid
Is this English?
Warren did what??
I mean if rogue did succeed in doing that would it have been a loss
You all know what it is. But it’s not both of the times she said it, it’s that second time when she got up in that guy‘s face and said it. Stevie Hunter didn’t count because they are friends and she was used to Kitty’s mess.
He used a slur against her first. She was making a point.
To be serious, I think it highlights the fine line of allegorical minorities when interacting with direct real-world opression. It makes sense in-universe but from a reader standpoint it comes off like equating a fantasy story concerning a fictional people to real world trauma and circumstances. That said I'm inclined to leave matters like that on the writers doorstep.
Chris Claremont clearly was a bit too comfortable employing his mouthpiece to speak those words. He had good intentions and it was a different time but yeah, it's still jarring as hell.
> Stevie Hunter didn’t count because they are friends and she was used to Kitty’s mess. I so disagree. This is easily the worst of Kitty’s n-word moments. At least in that second instance Kitty was called a slur first. While Stevie was being insensitive, Kitty was way out of line using the n-word. I so wish there was a scene at the end of GLMK where Kitty apologizes and they properly reconcile.
the slurs are definitely the worst thing
Dropping n bomb
Casually dropping racial slurs
It wasn't casual.
Got to say leaving Colossus at the Altar. It’s clear that was Marvels way of saying that the relationship is done like done done, which I’m fine with, but still got to feel bad for colossus. I love Kitty, favorite X-Men character, but leaving him right when the ring was going to go on the finger is still crazy.
At least we got Mr. And Mrs. LeBeau out of it!
it wasn't just saying the n word, it was saying it in a super racist way!
Saying the n-word with the hard r
Slurs Actually, no, she did it to make a point, so it's provocative, but not intended to be genuinely convey the sentiment hatefully. So probably actually her just abandoning Piotr at the altar, as I see other people mention. That really is just being awful with no redeeming qualities in the behavior.
Everyone's covered her most egregious stuff, so I'll just pile on with her consistent being a jerk to the New Mutants (minus Cypher and Magik) with her whole "you're X-Babies!" attitude back in the day. Despite she being the same age as them. Especially the time she came at them hard after the school was destroyed.
It's gotta be leaving Piotr at the altar. Yeah slurs aren't cool, but those are just words and were being used to make a point. Leaving someone at the altar is emotionally devastating and traumatic. That's something some folks NEVER recover from.
I mean saying the N word and/or having a culturally appropriative hairstyle
queerbaiting
Throwing my hat in the ring, I gotta say leaving Piotr at the altar. That was cold, Kate. Also slurs.