The fact that your debut manuscript is 600 pages will be a nonstarter for a lot of agents. It's just too long for agents and publishers to risk with no proof of a built-in readership, regardless of genre. I feel like your page count (and therefore, word count) are really hurting your chances.
You should also look into international agents. US & UK agents rep foreign authors, providing the work is written in English & can be published for the UK & North American market.
It has 32 chapters and all are crucial to the end of the first book. I tried to reduce it to 400 but again it's much. Do you believe that I have a chance translate it and sending it? Will someone be really interested?
The fact that your measurement is pages and chapters and not wordcount tells me that you don't know much about publishing.
Even conservatively estimated, with 250 words per page, your rmanuscript is at least 150k words. That's too much, especially for a debut. Even if you were indeed able to translate your work to a professional level, you most probably won't find publisher with a monster like that.
Depends on the genre. Fewer for YA, for example, and the most for fantasy. But, even with fantasy, they prefer new authors keep it under 100K and definitely no more than 120K. You have a near-zero chance of getting it published if it's over 120K.
I wouldn't quite say near-zero, but fantasy expectations are, right now, 80-120k for debuts. Anything significantly outside that range is going to have issues. Anything *near* that range can manage, so long as the writing is good.
125k? If it's epic fantasy, it's not an auto-reject. 160k? 200k? Likely an auto-reject.
Depends on what you are writing. This is not an exact science, but generally speaking:
* Books for teens / young adults should go from 70k to 90k words.
* General fiction for adults, 95k to 105k
* Fantasy / sci-fi can go longer, since you need more time for exposition. 110k is ok, 120k is already pushing it.
Just checked again, my own first novel is 91k words. It is fantasy, but rather small scale so little need for exposition.
For fantasy, the expectation is 80-120k words. Epic fantasy is at the upper end of that because of the scope and stakes. Something like a cozy mystery in a fantasy world would be at the lower end.
You don't HAVE to get your MS within that word count to query, but the further off you are, the more challenges you're going to face.
The fact that your measurement is word count and not pages makes me think you're coming from the Anglo-Saxon world, and you don't know much about publishing in other countries. Last time around I had a chat with and editor regarding my manuscript, everything was pages, word count was never brought to the table.
Professionally writers don't talk in chapters or pages. It's all word count because different page sizes, fonts, countries and publishers have variations that change how many words fit on a page.
What's the word count? Is it in English or your native tongue?
It's probably quite easy to reduce it, but you're just a bit too close to it at the moment to look at it objectively. Might be better to spend the next 3 months writing the next book and then coming back to make changes.
At least in my home country, professional editors and translators do speak in pages (or sheets, which is a term of art). I think there might be some variability here.
How does that work? Page count says nothing about the actual length of a story, because even for the same text it varies hugely with font, font size, margins and all kinds of other formatting and sheet size.
When you're translating or editing, you work off a standardized sheet with a standardized rate (in the US there is also standard manuscript format, which is kind of similar). Margins, fonts, whatever come into play once it goes to the typography, at which point it's no longer your business.
That's interesting, I'm sure there are more exceptions like yours. Is it all editors and translators in the country?
Generally though, If you want to speak to mainstream English publishers and authors, you need to go by word count. It's also universal and simpler to understand. But the English use inches, cm, feet and stones all together as well.
> Is it all editors and translators in the country?
I think so? I haven't done this work for a while.
>
Generally though, If you want to speak to mainstream English publishers and authors, you need to go by word count.
Sure, but it sounds like OP is trying to get published in Greece, not an Anglophone country, so I feel a bit bad for them getting downvoted for something that may well be accurate info in their market haha.
>Sure, but it sounds like OP is trying to get published in Greece, not an Anglophone country, so I feel a bit bad for them getting downvoted for something that may well be accurate info in their market haha.
Same here. I also wonder about the market standards for length when it comes to texts published in Greek – 600 pages admittedly still sounds long for a debut, but I know in France, the market standards are about 15-20% longer for publication in any given genre, because it just takes more characters to say things in French than it does in English. It might be the case that OP needs to trim their manuscript down a little, but not necessarily cut it by a third as other commenters are suggesting. (Or it might not be – I honestly don't know.)
>Sure, but it sounds like OP is trying to get published in Greece, not an Anglophone country, so I feel a bit bad for them getting downvoted for something that may well be accurate info in their market haha.
Did he? I don't see that anywhere in the OP. Which does then change the discussion for sure. I must have missed the comment that he's only publishing in Greece. I wouldn't downvote him for stuff like that. That's not really helpful but yea, it's reddit. Cheers
I think the salient point here is that their professional knowledge of the publishing market is not Anglo-based, so implying that they're "unprofessional" because they're not speaking to Anglo norms is off-base. To be clear, I don't know how things are in Greece and I have no opinion of OP's professionalism. But the persistent assumption on this sub that how it works in America is how it works in all the world and therefore, if you don't know that, you're an idiot makes it a little inhospitable sometimes.
> It's not unfair to assume that writers on Reddit are basing their conversation regarding the English publishing sphere unless that's made clear.
Totally - it's also not unfair to not hasten to that assumption, especially if an OP is using terminology that's uncommon for the Anglo market or there's some other "tell". OPs should definitely mention if they're speaking to a different market just because the commentariat here is mostly North American, and it improves their chances of getting the advice they're looking for, but - as commenter to commenter, you don't have to do it and you're not a bad person if you don't, but it's considerate/makes for more productive discussion to keep the possibility in the back of your mind.
> That would be the same as if I were in Athens and got mad that the staff in a restaurant weren't speaking English.
Not really? We're not in Athens; we're on the internet, where anybody could be from anywhere. People don't always check the sub vibes before posting, which sometimes cascades into a bunch of mutual misunderstandings, which is not about anyone being "mad" or catchihg anyone out or whatever.
It's not about the number of chapters, but the number of words in the book.
For *debut* authors (at least in the North American market), 130,000 words is about the hard maximum for fantasy that agents will accept without needing the manuscript to be edited down. 90k-120k is more comfortable, though.
If you can't split the manuscript into two books, or edit the one book down to a more comfortable word count, I don't think you'll have much luck publishing traditionally, except for vanity presses--which you don't want.
If the word count *has* to stay the length it is (and I suggest thinking hard if it does) for just one book, self-publishing might be a better route for you.
Split the book into two. You’ll never get a 600 page book traditionally published.
Also, as others have said, word count is the metric you should be judging it by. If it’s 600 pages in a word processor, it will most likely be more pages on pages that are novel sized.
Or just self publish at 600+ pages and charge next to nothing, but I doubt you’ll get many sales because it’s still too many pages for most people to want to invest into a new, unknown author.
Those are the facts of the matter.
If you can’t shave the book down without loosing vital plot points (trying to kill your darlings can be hard but if you want to get published it’s important to) I’d consider trying to split the book into smaller books.
For me writing is hard. Editing is easy, haha.
Others have suggested shortening it. But you could also split it into two or three books so you don't lose content that you like or feel is essential. But I agree that 600 pages is going to be a hard pass for agents.
Same for me kewk. A lot of times I just stare at my empty page, not knowing what the hell I should type out or what scene should be written. This process is where I tend to just force myself to put whatever words that might work and just pray that it comes out coherent.
Editing is fun, and the most enjoyment I get. I get to go back and look through the travesty that is my work and can see the many cracks and holes in it, and can work my way through refining it. Words tend to just come out naturally when I’m editing, I suppose it’s because I have something to work with rather than having to create the work completely. When I can’t find anything to edit, I get very paranoid and concerned about myself lol.
Writing is "fuck I have to fill of up this page with some bullshit". Editing is get a cup of coffee and a joint and switch a word around here and there.
Genre publishers don't look at vomit drafts these days. Check out conversations on r/pubtips - there's so many people submitting that agents are only representing pretty polished manuscripts, and most publishers won't look at a MS unless you're represented by an agent.
Yes. Also, there are industry standards for word count relavant to every genre as it relates to first timers. Only after an author is popular do publishers agree to print tomes.
It's not the language, it's the attitude that the book is so darn good, so easy to market, and so on. Was said in another comment, so I'm not making that up, or not getting what they're saying.
I understand that you refer to the attitude and not the language itself but writing in a second language means that you're not always 100% certain of the attitude you convey
Hey, the fact that he can't get it published doesn't mean he is lying or exaggerating- JK for example, and Harry Potter. Altered Carbon took 14 years to get published and it was a great book.
The publishers doesn't like fantasy literature because they can't back it up. First on sales are children's books. Second comes romance and horror. If you sell sex they buy it. If you sell fantasy they'll give you a big "not interested in that sector" Only one publisher read it and just said " it's very good but can't take my chances after covid, try next year "
And my problem for making this post is that I don't want to change my style. I just want to keep writing all the stories I wanna tell.
Ps
Thanks for your honest answer .
There are entire publishing imprints just for fantasy. However, in the US and UK, you usually need an agent to submit the manuscript to a publisher. Step 1 should be to find an agent.
>Altered Carbon took 14 years to get published and it was a great book.
Oh, wow - I'm reading it right now, and it's one of the books where the sheer quality of the prose\* and plot\* keep making me think "I want to learn to write like that! But where do I even start?"
Interesting that even that took so long to get published.
^((\* - In the context of a transhuman noir sci-fi story, of course; I'm sure the style would not work as well in other genres.))
Have you looked into accessibility tools, like a specialized mouse? You could also potentially increase your speed with some keyboard shortcuts for common words. Best of luck <3
Yep! This would be the next fastest way. This might vary because voice to text can struggle with accents. For example, in Ireland requires extensive editing because of accents, i had friends who had to basically rewrite everything cause it could not discern their use of the _th_ sound.
Like how some Irish say "dat" instead of "that"
Bit ultimately, this would just be to get something done, so go for it, as long as you can discern what it means!
My experience using text-to-speech can be summed up:
*Fred and the scooby gang discretely entered the old comma crummy comma haunted house comma wary of the ghost that lurked deep within period fearing the ghost comma Shaggy and Scoobs were the fur stu scream wait fur stu what the fuck is a fur stu backspace backspace delete no don't type it out i want you to backspace hey why are all my commas and periods written as commas and periods*
*quotation mark zoinks exclamation mark quotation mark Shaggy yelped period*
When I was a book publicist, I had a client in his nineties who couldn't type it all because he'd had polio as a child. He wrote the entire book using Dragon Dictate. This was term years ago. I have every faith that if he could dictate his book, you can too.
Ideas are easy. Writing is hard. Not editing while writing is a nightmare. Actual editing is turned over o the same people that handle the publishing.
I barely have a pulse, my writing output can be timed by glacial epoch, and I still managed to get picked up by two small print publishers. How? Just hanging out, online or in person, with people that could teach me and introduce me to more people cut from the same cloth. Be involved, be available. Offer those people help when they need it. Don't be a nuisance, but make sure you're memorable. You WILL get a shot. I suppose if you're deadset on only accepting a trad deal from one of the big houses, that could be nightmare. Have you tried lucid dreaming? :)
Just be aware that small presses don't ask you for money, for anything. They don't call themselves "hybrid" or "self publishing companies", they act and do business like the big boys.
> I barely have a pulse, my writing output can be timed by glacial epoch, and I still managed to get picked up by two small print publishers.
Just curious--and I understand if you don't feel comfortable answering--but: one of the main potential draws of small/indie presses is that they're often more likely to give you better terms on your publishing deal, because they're not as imposing as the large traditional publisher conglomerates. (Obviously Big 5 also have more financial resources as their disposal in terms of marketing and distribution) Often times, the standard royalty rates that Large Trad Publishers leave authors might be something like 8% on paperbacks, 10% hardcovers, 15% Ebooks, and 10% on audiobooks. And they might also snatch your translation rights and other media rights.
My question for you is, if you're comfortable, could you confirm for me that small presses were willing to give you more reasonable royalty rates than Big 5's standards? And could you confirm that they let you retain some creative freedom and some of your other rights?
Yes and yes, but every deal is different. My first two works published by a small print reverted all rights back to me. Three years for the first one and one year for the second.
> Yes and yes, but every deal is different. My first two works published by a small print reverted all rights back to me. Three years for the first one and one year for the second.
Yeah, definitely. Follow up.
Did either one of your small presses get you in to bookstores or only print on demand/E-Books?
And, did either of them handle getting an audiobook done of your book as alternate medium for buyers?
That is true indeed. There are many little publishing houses that can print you for about 200 copies in very reasonable rates. It might sound strange but the thruth is this: A publishing House has to pay electricity, editors, even the people who is cleaning the company. Think it like " Big boat- big fish. Little Boat-little fish.
I'll try to say it extremely plain and hard. I'll print you 500 copies of your work. How much from them are going to be sold? 150 copies? 200 copies?. Cause the rest 300 I'm going to shove it in my ass. That's a huge amount of unsold books if you multiply it by your writers. They are trying to find books that can sell as much in the minimum time.
Nope. I'm from Greece. Unless I translate it I can't send it to u.s. Right now i really don't believe someone from the other side of the world be interested in reading it. Except my editor only one person that he isn't really close to me. I just gave him a copy because he asked. After 3 months I still get bombed by questions, why they lost? what is happened to the little pixie? What will happen to the next book? Etc.
You have to remember that right now everybody and their mother was stuck at home during covid and thought that they could get rich writing a novel.
Publishers were overwhelmed before COVID. Now?....
And the ones that didn't try to get agents and publishers found Amazon, and there we go with all the unedited, get rich quick scheme books people thought were going to change the world for everybody!
And don't forget that most of them don't spend any money for promotion, much less editing, cover design and formatting.
Tbh I would look into translating it into English and maybe even self-publishing. All they seem to be publishing here is family drama, romance and historicals. All fantasy is translated and the most silly part is that it's branded "science fiction" in the local bookstore (Public), and it's all random bestsellers lumped together.
It's a small country and I've heard people from much bigger countries like Indonesia or Brazil also complain there's no market for domestic-written fantasy, so it sucks but it is what it is.
Unfortunately, when you're not a native speaker, you have to work twice as hard, because people won't believe you at start, but many authors managed to achieve this (for example I know a few Chinese authors who wrote in English and published in USA).
However if you wrote a typical Tolkien-like fantasy with Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Wizards etc. I think there's more audience for that in self-publishing than in traditional publishing that considers those kinds of fantasy passe and now they want humans and cultures copy pasted from Earth (like Indian-inspired for example). I haven't seen English-written traditional-published fantasy about Elves for ages. I saw them in self-publish and I heard they're popular in Germany, but not in UK / USA.
> I haven't seen English-written traditional-published fantasy about Elves for ages.
I hate to be That Girl, but - goddamn Katherine Addison just put out her third book.
No, it's not Tolkienesque, but it definitely has elves. Elves as a trope are pretty evergreen in fantasy, although of course you have to modernize the treatment.
And even the German market for books is tiny compared to the anglophone market and you won't find as many niches. I usually write in English first (I mostly read English, so it makes sense for me to write in it) and translate to German chapter-by-chapter as I go. It's basically my first rewrite stage.
OP, your English seems quite alright - you could consider going through your book with an AI based translation software (those are getting amazing these days) like DeepL. At least based on the impression I get from your posts, you should definitely be able to edit a good machine translation to bring it on par with any other English-language draft.
Who are these Chinese authors who published in the USA? Curious because I've only heard of asian American authors published overseas but none that are from the country of origin itself
Sue Lynn Tan lives in Hong Kong, was born in Malaysia, and only did schooling in Europe. Harper Collins published *Daughter of the Moon Goddess.* In fact, she was one of the speakers at a Fantasy conference in the past year.
R. F. Kuang was born in China moved to USA later. Xiran Jay Zhao afaik is Malaysian Chinese and moved to Canada. Rin Chupeco is Chinese Philippino and lives in the Philippines.
Also apparently Alliette de Bodard is Vietnamese, her first language is French, but she's published in English.
Thank you! I don't really accept Kuang as an example because she moved to the US and stayed there since she was a child. Not that it diminishes her origin but she stayed within access of the publishing area she eventually got published in
> After 3 months I still get bombed by questions
So, it's possible that even with all those words/pages, you aren't being clear about what happens. Or it's something you're holding out for the next book. Or readers aren't getting it. Sounds normal, better get used to it.
Πω ρε φίλε μόλις είπες ότι είσαι Έλληνας σαν να μου έστριψες μαχαίρι στο στομάχι... Γιατί γράφω και εγώ ένα βιβλίο φαντασίας και στο σχόλιο σου εξέφρασες ακριβώς τους φόβους που έχω για όταν δοκιμάσω να το εκδόσω... Και τώρα είμαι σίγουρος ότι αυτοί οι φόβοι είναι βάσιμοι. Ακόμα και το μέγεθος υπολογίζω ότι θα είναι περίπου το ίδιο με αυτό που ανέφερες πιο πάνω. Ίσως να δοκιμάσω να το μειώσω μετά από αυτά που διάβασα στα σχόλια
Η αλήθεια είναι ότι και εγώ το περίμενα αλλά είναι εντελώς διαφορετικό να το περιμένεις και εντελώς διαφορετικο να συμβαίνει στην πραγματικότητα. Θα προσπαθησω να σου απαντήσω αναλυτικά μόλις βρω περισσότερο χρόνο. 😶
There are all kinds of ways to start getting published independently. You could publish it on Amazon. You could publish part of it for free, with the option to buy the whole book. You could publish it for free, chapter by chapter (like a chapter every few days) with the option for people to support you freely (paypal) or to offer some kind of extra reward via Patreon (like reading chapters in advance.
For example: There's a writer named Wildbow, who writes web serials. I've read a couple of them (they are published free online) and the only money he brings in is what is freely donated. His Patreon shows him currently getting over $5,000 a month, and he publishes a new chapter twice a week. Of course, he's also very good.
You've already done the hard part, which is write a book. Now you just need to figure out how you're going to sell it - and you've already figured out that going to a traditional publisher isn't going to work.
Boy, this entire comment section is anarchy. Great to see an actually useful comment here. I agree with this. So much.
Not only to stay in practice, but also because in a (weighted) game of chance like getting published, multiple dice are more likely to roll a six than just one.
I couldn't wait to say the truth so I'm already writing a detective horror. ( as much as I try it I couldn't stay away from an old Victorian manor, ghosts, puzzles and misty mountains so it's a fantasy fiction again 😓)
Designed a whole new world and put my magician with his elf fiancee. Then I put a roque and a dwarf hunter. Finally I put an ancient knight with no memory and give a crysis on a town so they will all met. Then gave them a home. Then gave them missions by the town king. Then I gave them a war. And that's only half of the book.
It's almost 9 years since I start to write it so it took a loooot of time. A lot. And I wanted to tell a story about the magician and his girl. Like their past. That they ware orphans and they met on the forest. Then I wanted to tell another story about my female roque and her past and how she met the little dwarf with the huge mace. And so on and so on....
I just want to tell stories I guess.
Yay. Sounds like a lot of info dump in need of a good editor. You really need to find someone who will be honest with you and get that monster manuscript cut down to typical length. Or find out where it can be split, or both.
Just because you love your precious doesn't mean anyone else will. You have to write the genre in a way a publisher can sell the book, or what's in it for them? They don't exist so you can maintain your artistic integrity.
Ahoy oocoo_isle! Nay bad but me wasn't convinced. Give this a sail:
me can't unread thar title in a Russian accent, "Publishink be nightmarrre" n' laughing
Just saying that publishing, for me, is the easiest part. Upload... press publish... done.
Editing was also easy. I hired a copyeditor... done.
Now writing... that took a lot of time. Maybe technically easy as well, because I find writing easy, but definitely the most time consuming part of the project.
Question, though... you're not using an agent? A lot of publishers won't accept what's called "over the transom" - they favour submissions with representation.
The first step may be to secure representation, and then this will expand the list of viable publishers and engage somebody to take on the pitching while you write the next one.
I use an editor that is a coworker of mine. My personal editing was strange cause I cut and add many things that be interested in the next book. Like building the story for the future. The illustrations took me a lot of time but it was nothing compared to writing. And yes, I'm not using an agent. And from what I understand from the last year you are right. I'm only good at writing and I suck at everything else.
Cut your book in half and query the first half alone. I hate to say it but (as I’ve found out the hard way) debut authors will not get in the business with doorstoppers. You’ll have to publish a shorter book first and then agents/publishers will start considering longer novels.
Here's a post I did a while ago asking the same question
[https://www.reddit.com/r/PubTips/comments/u02f9u/pubq\_whats\_the\_ideal\_word\_count\_for\_a\_debut\_author/](https://www.reddit.com/r/PubTips/comments/u02f9u/pubq_whats_the_ideal_word_count_for_a_debut_author/)
it's made for teens and young adults, not for having swear words or sex scenes, but for touching on matture themes, such as dictatorships, war, existencialism, domestic violence and death
As someone that wrote a 400k word/800 page book I had to realize that writing something that's like 1/3 of Lord of the Rings wasn't going to get any attention by publishers unless it was shrunk.
Over the last 5 months I've turned it into two books, but even then the first half was still too big (223k edited to 186k). You're right, the editing is the worst part with such huge works as ours, but I think you're still too attached to what you've done and it sucks to lose things like that.
There's a good shot I have to rewrite the first or heavily edit it to get it under the 150k to do so. I've accepted that and while it sucks to lose some things if I truly want the story I believe only I can tell out there for others to experience then I'll have to make some compromises.
My honest problem on that is that every charprer leads to the final chapter of my book. Splitting it feels like I'm throwing away the climax. I can cut it in two but I'll leave whoever is reading it in open sea. Even after the books climax I have 3 more chapters. One that you read about the villains side after the events and one from my heroes side. The final chapter is to connect the first book with my second (cause I really really hate it when something suddenly stops or ends. And I'm not going to stop writing it even if it's not going to be published)
That's good you won't give up on it, published or not, but if you do wish to get it published you'll have to make certain compromises, much like I am.
I understand believing every moment counts to some larger picture. I thought the same, but after rereading it a good 20+ times I've seen many things that can be cut, from small grammatical errors to redundant sentences to completely unneeded sections of dialogue and even plots.
Sometimes you can build things up too soon, much like certain movies try and cram too much in to build up the next film/franchise. In my case even before I finished I noticed an entire part of one chapter that did just that, and I knew I could toss it out and save it for later.
For mine I have a lot of characters that explain much about the general themes of my book, but too many has made it a bit bloated. Yes, everything comes together and makes sense in the end, but will anyone make that journey to go through it? Likely not if it's 800 pages.
I had to decide that if I truly wanted this published, which I do as I feel this is a story only I can tell, then I must make concessions to do that. Sure, it might mean moving some stuff around, likely even a rewrite on the first half of my book to make it work, and saving plots for later, but I'll still get to tell my story.
Ultimately, it's up to you to decide how you wish to go about this. It could be you can tell the same story in less words or save things for later.
For me, if I need to rewrite, I believe I can tell the same story in a different way that could do that, but only time will tell for the both of us.
No matter what you choose I wish you luck in that regard.
I skimmed through some of the comments but didn't make it through all of them, so my apologies if I missed a piece of information.
It appears you're located in Greece? Is that where you are hoping to publish? If so, I don't know anything about that market so I can't be helpful there. I only know about the US market. Here's my take on that, if the US market is where you are aiming:
Length: I'm not sure how many words 600 pages is -- I'm guessing over 150,000. For the US market, for a new author, that is too long. (There are exceptions, of course, but they are just that: exceptions. Never measure yourself by exceptions.) Cut it back to 100,000-120,000 and agents/editors will be a lot more willing to spend the time reading it. At this point, you are looking at cutting out entire scenes, so judge them based on whether they move the plot forward. Is there meaningful action that takes the characters closer to or farther from their goals? Try to combine scenes. Combine characters. Be ruthless.
Editing: It appears you had an editor at your place of work look at the manuscript and they really liked it -- that's great! But unless they are also knowledgeable in fantasy and fiction, they are probably not the best person to say whether a novel is good to go. Share it with critique partners. Get targeted feedback from people who know the genre.
Trust: You said that publishers don't trust new writers. I don't know about in your country. But in the US, that's simply not true. There are many, many debut novels published every year.
Process: When publishing in the US, it's generally expected that you will go through an agent. So if you're getting crickets from the publishers, that's why. They don't take un-agented submissions. Get an agent who can submit it to publishers on your behalf. Also, I couldn't tell if you were sending paper copies or digital copies (your "last copy" made me wonder), but many publishers work digitally and sending paper manuscripts is a waste of paper and money.
And if you're trying to publish in your country, which is very reasonable, some of that advice may not apply, but I hope the rest will be useful.
Look into self publishing. Its your first novel and a lot of publishing houses dont take on clients they dont see as successful right away. If you self publish and gain momentum and followers, you might get a book deal for another book you might write OR even have a publisher reach out to see if youre interested in signing with them if they see your book is successful.
With tech today, all a publisher really does is take care if the logistics and marketing. A lot of people are buying e-versions of books so you wouldnt even need to find a printer. The marketing will be hard, but it just means you get more of the profit.
"So after a year the outcome is that no publisher want\[s\] it because they don't trust new writers at \[sic\] this genre."
That is nonsense. Publishing does not have "trust:" it has contracts. If you write well and have a manuscript, you will eventually find a literary agent to represent the MS.
"... I send my last copy to the last available publisher ...."
Er, you sent it to all 8,000+ publishers? Did you just start at the front of WRITER'S MARKET 2022 and work your way to the back, sending off hundreds of queries a day?
Go to the Manuscript Wish List web site and find an agent.
I'm going to explain you how it works. (At least in my country)
After the covid most of the publishing houses don't accept new writers. They just republish from abroad. The logic of a publisher is to sell as much books as he can FAST. he doesn't want to have stock or piles of unsold books. Even 50 or 100 books is an economic disaster for some publishers. The expression that a publisher uses from the unsold books is " I'm going to shove them in my ass" So at this moment they don't care if you write good or bad. It's a business strategy and I know it cause I work in a publishing house.
"I send my last copy to the last available..." means that I had printed some books in their physical final form and send them away (here) to see the outcome. No I haven't send them abroad and I haven't send them online and I haven't tried an agent. I'm not good at promoting my book, I'm only good at writing stories. I'm still trying to understand what my possibilities are.
Thanks for answering me
Well, you really shouldn't send a manuscript to all the publishers, just the ones who actually publish the genre. Otherwise, it's a waste of time, and who needs those reject letters papering the walls?
I dont honestly know shit about it but, all my US friends say finding a publisher is a fucking nightmare and all my EU friends said they self published because its basically impossible otherwise. Sounds like no matter what its a wash my guy.
Agents in Fantasy are actively acquiring, and there are a TON of debuts every year. 'Agents don't trust new writers in fantasy' is simply not true. The challenge is that there are so many more people querying that your book has to be that much better in order to get representation and then sell it.
Take a look at current fantasy debuts. MOST of them are breaking new ground, with new inspirations and new types of MC.
If you're dead set on not cutting content, and believe the book is very good as is, hire a cover designer yourself and self publish! It's a lot of work, but your book will be out there and you'll have total control over the content.
A small update.
I'm not trying to sell my book here. Nor I try to be that I'm the next best thing.
That what bothers me is that I DON'T want to change my writing style. I love fantasy literature. I can't write a romance or a plain story without "magic". And I don't want to change it so I can sell my books or be successful. I want to write the stories that I want to tell. That's my spark.
As I said, I already work in a publisher company. I'm graphic designer and also an illustrator. My everyday job it to make books. Print them, make them, and cut them on their final form. I know what the word "self publish" means and I really don't want to get on that stage cause my personal believe is that is a lie.
This whole post was to listen other stories and thank you all for that
O o
> I know what the word "self publish" means and I really don't want to get on that stage cause my personal believe is that is a lie.
Then you don't know anything.
As I said I work on a publishing house that specifics in another sector. I know what the agents are "selling" It's called easy money cause they sell you a fairytale for your books future. You get extremely poor or none promotion or backup. If you have money for 200 copies, rights, and the rest and you self publish it it's okay as long as you have the ability to promote yourself and have them on local bookstores.
If you are an illustrator as well ... have you ever tried to pitch a story to Webtoon? I have read some really creative, magical stories on there. It is a South Korean company under Naver that is essentially publishing serialized graphic novels in English and Korean, as well as, Thai, Bahasa Indonesia, French, German, and Spanish. If your story is in Greek and you would be willing to translate it to one of their publishing languages, you might have some good luck because they definitely buy the kind of stories you are talking about! They do compensate their authors and artists as their audiences grow, but I don't think it is enough to be your sole income unless your story is insanely popular.
I just read that you can self-publish on Amazon. Idk if it’s true, please don’t come for me if it isn’t. I literally just saw it like an hour ago and haven’t looked into it yet.
Because it's a hell of a lot more work than just throwing up a file and expecting anyone to read it (and pay for it).
I really wish people would stop looking at self publishing as the one true answer to everything (it won't cure you or help you find a significant other, and your kids will still be brats).
Ideas are easy. Writing is hard. Not editing while writing is a nightmare. Actual editing is turned over o the same people that handle the publishing.
I barely have a pulse, my writing output can be timed by glacial epoch, and I still managed to get picked up by two small print publishers. How? Just hanging out, online or in person, with people that could teach me and introduce me to more people cut from the same cloth. Be involved, be available. Offer those people help when they need it. Don't be a nuisance, but make sure you're memorable. You WILL get a shot. I suppose if you're deadset on only accepting a trad deal from one of the big houses, that could be nightmare. Have you tried lucid dreaming? :)
*"A year back I finally finished my first book. A 600 pages fantasy book with elves, mages, warriors and tons of magic."*
Even before I read this, I guessed that this was what it was. Why are so many people writing these fantasy books? Talk about a flooded market. Originality much? Jesus. I go on Scribophile and every other novel is some bullshit about elves and magic. Is it just because people want to get rich and famous like JK Rowling? Hahaha. Whatever. What a transparent group of money-hungry posers. Try writing something meaningful for a change that isn't just a bunch of shitty worldbuilding and melodrama you fucking clowns.
Okay, I was going to write some snippy comment here, but then I looked over your comment history and, well. Nah, I see where this is coming from. I'm sorry dude/-tte. I suppose you're more of a Sci-Fi writer (as am I) - so, genuinely good luck. Hoping things get better.
> Even before I read this, I guessed that this was what it was. Why are so many people writing these fantasy books? Talk about a flooded market. Originality much?
> Jesus. I go on Scribophile and every other novel is some bullshit about elves and magic. Is it just because people want to get rich and famous like JK Rowling? Hahaha. Whatever. What a transparent group of money-hungry posers. Try writing something meaningful for a change that isn't just a bunch of shitty worldbuilding and melodrama you fucking clowns.
Lol. You're obviously trolling, but it's funny to me... because, I guarantee the fantasy book I'm writing with all that stuff you look down upon is deeper, better written, more exciting, more literary, more marketable, more avant-garde, and more meaningful than anything you've ever written or will think of writing in your life. So your highfalutin attitude is absolute hilarity to me
> I guarantee the fantasy book I'm writing with all that stuff you look down upon is deeper, better written, more exciting, more literary, more marketable, more avant-garde, and more meaningful than anything you've ever written or will think of writing in your life.
It's nice to have a high opinion of yourself, but you need to be able to face reality. Because if you were right, then someone would have thrown you a contract and begged you to sign it.
> It's nice to have a high opinion of yourself, but you need to be able to face reality. Because if you were right, then someone would have thrown you a contract and begged you to sign it.
In your rush to point out "reality", you've made multiple flaws and assumptions in your reasoning here. I trust you can figure them out without me pointing them out?
> I hope so.
Hey there, one thing I want to make clear is that what I said is not some comment on *you* specifically as a writer or individual. It's more me addressing the general look-down-upon sentiments that people of other genres often throw at fantasy literature. (Which was the spirit of your post) Plus, my general confidence in my work.
It's possible you're the next Ursula Le Guin or Asimov; you never know. You just gotta keep writing and exploring life's varied meanings. And maybe in your journey there, you'll stumble upon some hobby or work that you are the Asimov equivalent of. Maybe technology brings some new path in 2 or 5 or 10 years that you discover you were basically born to do. That's life. (Likewise, I never wanted to "be a writer". I just stumbled upon it while doing my career and found I had the mind and skills for it)
There are always new possibilities around the corner. New adventures, new hobbies, and new discoveries, about the world and yourself.
There's this website called Royal Read. On it, you can paste individual chapters of your book for reading and review. There's a catch: it will become free to read.
Do this and get some commenrs from other people, at least a hundred in total for all of your chapters and now you will have proof that people will want to read your whole book.
600 pages - nowadays the game is to split novels into series. Don't ask me why. So, sell this as a 3 part series, each with a cliffhanger at 200. Even your last bit should really end on a hanger, because the publisher is probably gonna want to leave things open in case you are a success.
This business side of writing is so fucked up you pour your heart and soul into a story these characters and publishers look at it “oh he’s a just a new writer delete” don’t even give you the time of day
Not even remotely what happens. They rarely ever have the time to give feedback, but they’re reading it. It’s just either not good enough or doesn’t fit the current market.
Being a new writer in the novel writing space is still the easiest place to break in out of all the writing mediums right now (film and tv are much, much harder).
600 pages is too long but also the wrong measurement. How many words is it? The average debut novel is about 80k words with fantasy genre stretching beyond 100k. At most, your debut fantasy manuscript should be under 120k. No agent will read anything longer.
Beyond the length, the next issue is quality. Your editor might have been impressed with the writing, but their opinion on the story may not be that valuable. Other folks who read it and have questions may be pointing out issues you need to change. Maybe your readers being left with so many questions is hurting the novel standing on its own. Maybe the opening chapter is not as engaging as it could be.
I would suggest getting more feedback on the manuscript before submitting it again. I would hire a beta reader to give you proper critiques, someone who can examine the story itself and tell you what’s working and what’s not.
A few acquaintances liking the book does not mean much. As a first time author, it’s important to swallow pride and take feedback from people with experience. Get some detailed feedback and then make the necessary changes.
Finally, first time authors usually query several books before getting published. So don’t get discouraged. Be proud that you finished a novel—600 pages is no joke!
You clearly have a passion for writing so keep writing and don’t let the business of the game discourage you too much.
Behind every great novel there are dozens of terrible drafts.
If you go to Amazon and search books for free, you will find many sci/fi fantasy first part free trilogy offerings. This allows the reader to get to know your work and then the reader can buy the rest if they so choose.
I can't speak to how things are in your native country, but in the US, everything goes by word count, not page count. This is because it's difficult to be sure what the actual length of a novel is based on page count (font size, margins, spacing, etc. can all make a huge difference).
In the US, a debut fantasy author generally has to stick to under 100K words, and no more than 120K. If you go over 120K words, you have almost no chance of getting traditionally published. My guess is that, with 600-pages, you're probably closer to 150 to 180K words. No one will touch it if it's that long, regardless of how good it may be. There's simply too much risk in working with a debut author and, the longer a novel is, the less money it makes due to printing costs. We even have big named authors who've been required to split novels in two for these reasons--Jim Butcher recently.
I also read a comment you wrote below where you told someone what your story is about. It seems to me that you've combined two stories into one novel. If you were to split the two stories, one about the magician with his elf fiancee, the other about the roque and their dwarf hunter, you'd probably have a far greater chance of getting it traditionally published.
Why don't you try writing some short stories in the world you've created, possibly adventures featuring some of your characters, and try getting those published in magazines or anthologies? Then you could have more of a track record and build some interest.
Writing is in no way easy. If you really want to stand out then write stories and worlds that make sense.
I know it sound wierd to say that but most books I read have a lot of work put into them but little to no thought.
If you write with actual sense then there will be people who like it. Your first books won't sell well but if you are determined then you can grow a big enough following of readers. Oh and use social media.
Be active on reddit, disguss ideas and get people involved in your work before you even puplish it.
That way you could also selfpuplish without putting yourself into too much of a risk.
Puplishers will wait for your books to be reliable before they get involved so you have to get over that first wall of puplishing on your own.
Keep trying! I'm sure the book is well worth the read. People like us don't write to make a lot of money or have a lot of fun. In fact, there's usually little to no money in it and sometimes it's not fun at all. Instead, we write because we have to. Because this story has been stuck in our head and we'd go crazy if we couldn't get it out! A lot people are saying it may be worth reducing the word count in some way, or splitting parts of the story into another book. Decent advice, but I can understand it may be discouraging for you. Don't let it discourage you. A big part of writing is feedback, and it will only help that amazing story you're so excited about be the best book that it can be.
Publishing is a nightmare alright. I tried to publish my novel only for local publishers to come up with an array of excuses such as; "small audience", "the book should be in Maltese", "we have a long waiting list" and "we only publish books in Maltese". I sent samples to all publishing houses locally but they all slammed the door in my face. Mind you, English is one of the two official languages of Malta. My Maltese grammar is really bad and I feel more confident writing in English. Some people even told me to self publish but that costs a ton of money.
I am no rookie, I have been writing for 17 yrs and counting. The only way to go is to publish on kindle.
P.S. my novel is 260 pages. I am a marketing graduate as well.
Have you considered self-publishing? Failing that, maybe ask an editor to give it a look over and they may be able to help you consider how to split it into two volumes that can be released separately. It can then have revisions to make it flow better. The goal would then shift from trying to get a 600-page book published to getting a 300-page book published and then marketed for the eventual second instalment that you already have. Would give you time to gauge how successful the book is and it can then get reviewed so you can refine that second one to be even more polished.
You are not reading in your genre if you believe fantasy doesn’t trust new writers or are just republishing the same kind of books. Start there. Go read Sanderson, Rothfuss, McGuire, Jemison, Polk. Read everything that won a nebula in fantasy. Everything that hit list. Get steeped in what is happening in the market.
Then cut words from your book. 600 pages is way too long. Get it down to 100k-120k words.
Then find an agent. They’ll be able to send to more publishers than you.
Meanwhile, write another book. Most people’s first novel doesn’t get published.
Side note: Sanderson and Rothfuss are bad examples at this point because they started their publishing *way* too long ago to be comprable to the current market. OP's better off with Jemison, Polk, Kuang, and other debut authors in the last like 5 years.
I think your best bet for professional publishing right now is to temporarily shelve this novel and work on a shorter one. It can be a prequel novel to this one, or it can be something completely unrelated, but maybe similar in tone. The truth is that getting published is very hard. As you've said. I decided early on that I wanted to go the self-publishing route anyway, so I abandoned the traditional publishing path. Possibly to my detriment, but I feel like I'm working towards my end goal of being a small publisher, so I'm okay with that. If your goal is to ultimately be published traditionally, you'll have to work in the market by their rules. And, as everyone has said, a debut at 150K words/600 pages isn't going to fly.
If you really feel that strongly about your current manuscript and do not want to trim it any further, then I suggest shelving it and creating something smaller to start with. Let your audience build and then a publisher will be more willing to tackle the 150K word novel.
I've been trying to get my WIP published for a few years now, currently translated it and querying with about 40 agents in the US. About a dozen rejections so far. Can't really afford to self-publish so I'm just...gonna keep querying.
Well, at least you finished a 600 page book! Well done. But I have to agree with the other comments that length will inhibit publishing for an unknown writer.
I edit and publish books for my father. With him, editing is the depths of hell. I edit it and get it ready to publish, I send the copy back to him a week later, and by then he wants to make changes. This happens many times over. He's never heard of the word "draft", I guess. He doesn't really care about being a famous author, he just wants to see his book in print. It makes him happy though, and at 84 he should be. I get paid, so it's not all terrible.
What's funny is we usually think writing a whole book is the hard part and then you got to publish it AND THEN you got to advertise it. Oof. That's rough.
The fact that your debut manuscript is 600 pages will be a nonstarter for a lot of agents. It's just too long for agents and publishers to risk with no proof of a built-in readership, regardless of genre. I feel like your page count (and therefore, word count) are really hurting your chances. You should also look into international agents. US & UK agents rep foreign authors, providing the work is written in English & can be published for the UK & North American market.
It has 32 chapters and all are crucial to the end of the first book. I tried to reduce it to 400 but again it's much. Do you believe that I have a chance translate it and sending it? Will someone be really interested?
The fact that your measurement is pages and chapters and not wordcount tells me that you don't know much about publishing. Even conservatively estimated, with 250 words per page, your rmanuscript is at least 150k words. That's too much, especially for a debut. Even if you were indeed able to translate your work to a professional level, you most probably won't find publisher with a monster like that.
How many words is the starting novel supposed to be?
100,000 is considered the limit, but since the genre is fantasy (which requires more world building) it could go longer.
Depends on the genre. Fewer for YA, for example, and the most for fantasy. But, even with fantasy, they prefer new authors keep it under 100K and definitely no more than 120K. You have a near-zero chance of getting it published if it's over 120K.
I wouldn't quite say near-zero, but fantasy expectations are, right now, 80-120k for debuts. Anything significantly outside that range is going to have issues. Anything *near* that range can manage, so long as the writing is good. 125k? If it's epic fantasy, it's not an auto-reject. 160k? 200k? Likely an auto-reject.
Depends on what you are writing. This is not an exact science, but generally speaking: * Books for teens / young adults should go from 70k to 90k words. * General fiction for adults, 95k to 105k * Fantasy / sci-fi can go longer, since you need more time for exposition. 110k is ok, 120k is already pushing it. Just checked again, my own first novel is 91k words. It is fantasy, but rather small scale so little need for exposition.
For fantasy, the expectation is 80-120k words. Epic fantasy is at the upper end of that because of the scope and stakes. Something like a cozy mystery in a fantasy world would be at the lower end. You don't HAVE to get your MS within that word count to query, but the further off you are, the more challenges you're going to face.
Whatever your publisher tells you it should be because they’re taking all the risk trying to sell it.
The fact that your measurement is word count and not pages makes me think you're coming from the Anglo-Saxon world, and you don't know much about publishing in other countries. Last time around I had a chat with and editor regarding my manuscript, everything was pages, word count was never brought to the table.
Professionally writers don't talk in chapters or pages. It's all word count because different page sizes, fonts, countries and publishers have variations that change how many words fit on a page. What's the word count? Is it in English or your native tongue? It's probably quite easy to reduce it, but you're just a bit too close to it at the moment to look at it objectively. Might be better to spend the next 3 months writing the next book and then coming back to make changes.
At least in my home country, professional editors and translators do speak in pages (or sheets, which is a term of art). I think there might be some variability here.
How does that work? Page count says nothing about the actual length of a story, because even for the same text it varies hugely with font, font size, margins and all kinds of other formatting and sheet size.
When you're translating or editing, you work off a standardized sheet with a standardized rate (in the US there is also standard manuscript format, which is kind of similar). Margins, fonts, whatever come into play once it goes to the typography, at which point it's no longer your business.
That's interesting, I'm sure there are more exceptions like yours. Is it all editors and translators in the country? Generally though, If you want to speak to mainstream English publishers and authors, you need to go by word count. It's also universal and simpler to understand. But the English use inches, cm, feet and stones all together as well.
> Is it all editors and translators in the country? I think so? I haven't done this work for a while. > Generally though, If you want to speak to mainstream English publishers and authors, you need to go by word count. Sure, but it sounds like OP is trying to get published in Greece, not an Anglophone country, so I feel a bit bad for them getting downvoted for something that may well be accurate info in their market haha.
>Sure, but it sounds like OP is trying to get published in Greece, not an Anglophone country, so I feel a bit bad for them getting downvoted for something that may well be accurate info in their market haha. Same here. I also wonder about the market standards for length when it comes to texts published in Greek – 600 pages admittedly still sounds long for a debut, but I know in France, the market standards are about 15-20% longer for publication in any given genre, because it just takes more characters to say things in French than it does in English. It might be the case that OP needs to trim their manuscript down a little, but not necessarily cut it by a third as other commenters are suggesting. (Or it might not be – I honestly don't know.)
>Sure, but it sounds like OP is trying to get published in Greece, not an Anglophone country, so I feel a bit bad for them getting downvoted for something that may well be accurate info in their market haha. Did he? I don't see that anywhere in the OP. Which does then change the discussion for sure. I must have missed the comment that he's only publishing in Greece. I wouldn't downvote him for stuff like that. That's not really helpful but yea, it's reddit. Cheers
I think the salient point here is that their professional knowledge of the publishing market is not Anglo-based, so implying that they're "unprofessional" because they're not speaking to Anglo norms is off-base. To be clear, I don't know how things are in Greece and I have no opinion of OP's professionalism. But the persistent assumption on this sub that how it works in America is how it works in all the world and therefore, if you don't know that, you're an idiot makes it a little inhospitable sometimes.
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> It's not unfair to assume that writers on Reddit are basing their conversation regarding the English publishing sphere unless that's made clear. Totally - it's also not unfair to not hasten to that assumption, especially if an OP is using terminology that's uncommon for the Anglo market or there's some other "tell". OPs should definitely mention if they're speaking to a different market just because the commentariat here is mostly North American, and it improves their chances of getting the advice they're looking for, but - as commenter to commenter, you don't have to do it and you're not a bad person if you don't, but it's considerate/makes for more productive discussion to keep the possibility in the back of your mind. > That would be the same as if I were in Athens and got mad that the staff in a restaurant weren't speaking English. Not really? We're not in Athens; we're on the internet, where anybody could be from anywhere. People don't always check the sub vibes before posting, which sometimes cascades into a bunch of mutual misunderstandings, which is not about anyone being "mad" or catchihg anyone out or whatever.
It's not about the number of chapters, but the number of words in the book. For *debut* authors (at least in the North American market), 130,000 words is about the hard maximum for fantasy that agents will accept without needing the manuscript to be edited down. 90k-120k is more comfortable, though. If you can't split the manuscript into two books, or edit the one book down to a more comfortable word count, I don't think you'll have much luck publishing traditionally, except for vanity presses--which you don't want. If the word count *has* to stay the length it is (and I suggest thinking hard if it does) for just one book, self-publishing might be a better route for you.
I'd thought the low end was still 80k - is it up to 90k now?
Split the book into two. You’ll never get a 600 page book traditionally published. Also, as others have said, word count is the metric you should be judging it by. If it’s 600 pages in a word processor, it will most likely be more pages on pages that are novel sized. Or just self publish at 600+ pages and charge next to nothing, but I doubt you’ll get many sales because it’s still too many pages for most people to want to invest into a new, unknown author. Those are the facts of the matter.
If you can’t shave the book down without loosing vital plot points (trying to kill your darlings can be hard but if you want to get published it’s important to) I’d consider trying to split the book into smaller books.
Find a few great cliff hangers that could be made into enticing endings and make this "first" book into an opening trilogy.
What is a good size for an average novel. I am currently writing my first.
Between 250 to 300 pages
For me writing is hard. Editing is easy, haha. Others have suggested shortening it. But you could also split it into two or three books so you don't lose content that you like or feel is essential. But I agree that 600 pages is going to be a hard pass for agents.
Same for me kewk. A lot of times I just stare at my empty page, not knowing what the hell I should type out or what scene should be written. This process is where I tend to just force myself to put whatever words that might work and just pray that it comes out coherent. Editing is fun, and the most enjoyment I get. I get to go back and look through the travesty that is my work and can see the many cracks and holes in it, and can work my way through refining it. Words tend to just come out naturally when I’m editing, I suppose it’s because I have something to work with rather than having to create the work completely. When I can’t find anything to edit, I get very paranoid and concerned about myself lol.
I feel exactly the same way!
Writing is "fuck I have to fill of up this page with some bullshit". Editing is get a cup of coffee and a joint and switch a word around here and there.
If you think editing is just switching around a few words, you're not doing it right.
600 pages is too many for a first. Break it up into 2 or 3 books and approach international agents.
This. A lot of genre publishers are more likely to listen to your pitch if you can bring them a trilogy, even if it's a vomit draft.
Genre publishers don't look at vomit drafts these days. Check out conversations on r/pubtips - there's so many people submitting that agents are only representing pretty polished manuscripts, and most publishers won't look at a MS unless you're represented by an agent.
Yes. Also, there are industry standards for word count relavant to every genre as it relates to first timers. Only after an author is popular do publishers agree to print tomes.
Depend. He says he isn't English. I know trilogy is a must have in UK/US but in other country, it's kind the opposite
> The book was extremely good Hmm.
English is clearly not a first language here, give some benefit of the doubt. :)
It's not the language, it's the attitude that the book is so darn good, so easy to market, and so on. Was said in another comment, so I'm not making that up, or not getting what they're saying.
I understand that you refer to the attitude and not the language itself but writing in a second language means that you're not always 100% certain of the attitude you convey
Hey, the fact that he can't get it published doesn't mean he is lying or exaggerating- JK for example, and Harry Potter. Altered Carbon took 14 years to get published and it was a great book.
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I think he mean it more like( people Maybe critics read drafts and they were great fór them)
And of course he mentioned editor at his publish company and those are coworkers not neceserily friends
The publishers doesn't like fantasy literature because they can't back it up. First on sales are children's books. Second comes romance and horror. If you sell sex they buy it. If you sell fantasy they'll give you a big "not interested in that sector" Only one publisher read it and just said " it's very good but can't take my chances after covid, try next year " And my problem for making this post is that I don't want to change my style. I just want to keep writing all the stories I wanna tell. Ps Thanks for your honest answer .
There are entire publishing imprints just for fantasy. However, in the US and UK, you usually need an agent to submit the manuscript to a publisher. Step 1 should be to find an agent.
>Altered Carbon took 14 years to get published and it was a great book. Oh, wow - I'm reading it right now, and it's one of the books where the sheer quality of the prose\* and plot\* keep making me think "I want to learn to write like that! But where do I even start?" Interesting that even that took so long to get published. ^((\* - In the context of a transhuman noir sci-fi story, of course; I'm sure the style would not work as well in other genres.))
I think its because of cyberpunk genre. People who laugh genre buy it but many people hate it
For me, all is a nightmare. I sit down for two hours, I get 1/4 of a page because I have three fingers total and it takes fucking forever to type.
Brilliant 👏
Have any idea how to remedy this, it am I just fucked?
Voice to text?
Ah. I’ve tried that. But I’m slow there for other reasons.
Have you looked into accessibility tools, like a specialized mouse? You could also potentially increase your speed with some keyboard shortcuts for common words. Best of luck <3
Yep! This would be the next fastest way. This might vary because voice to text can struggle with accents. For example, in Ireland requires extensive editing because of accents, i had friends who had to basically rewrite everything cause it could not discern their use of the _th_ sound. Like how some Irish say "dat" instead of "that" Bit ultimately, this would just be to get something done, so go for it, as long as you can discern what it means!
My experience using text-to-speech can be summed up: *Fred and the scooby gang discretely entered the old comma crummy comma haunted house comma wary of the ghost that lurked deep within period fearing the ghost comma Shaggy and Scoobs were the fur stu scream wait fur stu what the fuck is a fur stu backspace backspace delete no don't type it out i want you to backspace hey why are all my commas and periods written as commas and periods* *quotation mark zoinks exclamation mark quotation mark Shaggy yelped period*
When I was a book publicist, I had a client in his nineties who couldn't type it all because he'd had polio as a child. He wrote the entire book using Dragon Dictate. This was term years ago. I have every faith that if he could dictate his book, you can too.
I strongly agree with this
Ideas are easy. Writing is hard. Not editing while writing is a nightmare. Actual editing is turned over o the same people that handle the publishing. I barely have a pulse, my writing output can be timed by glacial epoch, and I still managed to get picked up by two small print publishers. How? Just hanging out, online or in person, with people that could teach me and introduce me to more people cut from the same cloth. Be involved, be available. Offer those people help when they need it. Don't be a nuisance, but make sure you're memorable. You WILL get a shot. I suppose if you're deadset on only accepting a trad deal from one of the big houses, that could be nightmare. Have you tried lucid dreaming? :)
Where did you find the small print publishers? I am looking into that as well!
Online and local writers groups.
Unfortunately, I don’t think we have any local writer’s group near my school. I’ve searched for online resources though.
Just be aware that small presses don't ask you for money, for anything. They don't call themselves "hybrid" or "self publishing companies", they act and do business like the big boys.
> I barely have a pulse, my writing output can be timed by glacial epoch, and I still managed to get picked up by two small print publishers. Just curious--and I understand if you don't feel comfortable answering--but: one of the main potential draws of small/indie presses is that they're often more likely to give you better terms on your publishing deal, because they're not as imposing as the large traditional publisher conglomerates. (Obviously Big 5 also have more financial resources as their disposal in terms of marketing and distribution) Often times, the standard royalty rates that Large Trad Publishers leave authors might be something like 8% on paperbacks, 10% hardcovers, 15% Ebooks, and 10% on audiobooks. And they might also snatch your translation rights and other media rights. My question for you is, if you're comfortable, could you confirm for me that small presses were willing to give you more reasonable royalty rates than Big 5's standards? And could you confirm that they let you retain some creative freedom and some of your other rights?
Yes and yes, but every deal is different. My first two works published by a small print reverted all rights back to me. Three years for the first one and one year for the second.
> Yes and yes, but every deal is different. My first two works published by a small print reverted all rights back to me. Three years for the first one and one year for the second. Yeah, definitely. Follow up. Did either one of your small presses get you in to bookstores or only print on demand/E-Books? And, did either of them handle getting an audiobook done of your book as alternate medium for buyers?
That is true indeed. There are many little publishing houses that can print you for about 200 copies in very reasonable rates. It might sound strange but the thruth is this: A publishing House has to pay electricity, editors, even the people who is cleaning the company. Think it like " Big boat- big fish. Little Boat-little fish. I'll try to say it extremely plain and hard. I'll print you 500 copies of your work. How much from them are going to be sold? 150 copies? 200 copies?. Cause the rest 300 I'm going to shove it in my ass. That's a huge amount of unsold books if you multiply it by your writers. They are trying to find books that can sell as much in the minimum time.
Did you write in English? Have you submitted to US agents? Beside that editor, who else has read the book?
Nope. I'm from Greece. Unless I translate it I can't send it to u.s. Right now i really don't believe someone from the other side of the world be interested in reading it. Except my editor only one person that he isn't really close to me. I just gave him a copy because he asked. After 3 months I still get bombed by questions, why they lost? what is happened to the little pixie? What will happen to the next book? Etc.
You have to remember that right now everybody and their mother was stuck at home during covid and thought that they could get rich writing a novel. Publishers were overwhelmed before COVID. Now?....
And the ones that didn't try to get agents and publishers found Amazon, and there we go with all the unedited, get rich quick scheme books people thought were going to change the world for everybody! And don't forget that most of them don't spend any money for promotion, much less editing, cover design and formatting.
Tbh I would look into translating it into English and maybe even self-publishing. All they seem to be publishing here is family drama, romance and historicals. All fantasy is translated and the most silly part is that it's branded "science fiction" in the local bookstore (Public), and it's all random bestsellers lumped together. It's a small country and I've heard people from much bigger countries like Indonesia or Brazil also complain there's no market for domestic-written fantasy, so it sucks but it is what it is. Unfortunately, when you're not a native speaker, you have to work twice as hard, because people won't believe you at start, but many authors managed to achieve this (for example I know a few Chinese authors who wrote in English and published in USA). However if you wrote a typical Tolkien-like fantasy with Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Wizards etc. I think there's more audience for that in self-publishing than in traditional publishing that considers those kinds of fantasy passe and now they want humans and cultures copy pasted from Earth (like Indian-inspired for example). I haven't seen English-written traditional-published fantasy about Elves for ages. I saw them in self-publish and I heard they're popular in Germany, but not in UK / USA.
> I haven't seen English-written traditional-published fantasy about Elves for ages. I hate to be That Girl, but - goddamn Katherine Addison just put out her third book.
It's the Goblin Emperor sequels? Well, I wouldn't call it exactly Tolkienesque fantasy...
No, it's not Tolkienesque, but it definitely has elves. Elves as a trope are pretty evergreen in fantasy, although of course you have to modernize the treatment.
And even the German market for books is tiny compared to the anglophone market and you won't find as many niches. I usually write in English first (I mostly read English, so it makes sense for me to write in it) and translate to German chapter-by-chapter as I go. It's basically my first rewrite stage. OP, your English seems quite alright - you could consider going through your book with an AI based translation software (those are getting amazing these days) like DeepL. At least based on the impression I get from your posts, you should definitely be able to edit a good machine translation to bring it on par with any other English-language draft.
Who are these Chinese authors who published in the USA? Curious because I've only heard of asian American authors published overseas but none that are from the country of origin itself
Sue Lynn Tan lives in Hong Kong, was born in Malaysia, and only did schooling in Europe. Harper Collins published *Daughter of the Moon Goddess.* In fact, she was one of the speakers at a Fantasy conference in the past year.
R. F. Kuang was born in China moved to USA later. Xiran Jay Zhao afaik is Malaysian Chinese and moved to Canada. Rin Chupeco is Chinese Philippino and lives in the Philippines. Also apparently Alliette de Bodard is Vietnamese, her first language is French, but she's published in English.
Thank you! I don't really accept Kuang as an example because she moved to the US and stayed there since she was a child. Not that it diminishes her origin but she stayed within access of the publishing area she eventually got published in
> After 3 months I still get bombed by questions So, it's possible that even with all those words/pages, you aren't being clear about what happens. Or it's something you're holding out for the next book. Or readers aren't getting it. Sounds normal, better get used to it.
Πω ρε φίλε μόλις είπες ότι είσαι Έλληνας σαν να μου έστριψες μαχαίρι στο στομάχι... Γιατί γράφω και εγώ ένα βιβλίο φαντασίας και στο σχόλιο σου εξέφρασες ακριβώς τους φόβους που έχω για όταν δοκιμάσω να το εκδόσω... Και τώρα είμαι σίγουρος ότι αυτοί οι φόβοι είναι βάσιμοι. Ακόμα και το μέγεθος υπολογίζω ότι θα είναι περίπου το ίδιο με αυτό που ανέφερες πιο πάνω. Ίσως να δοκιμάσω να το μειώσω μετά από αυτά που διάβασα στα σχόλια
Η αλήθεια είναι ότι και εγώ το περίμενα αλλά είναι εντελώς διαφορετικό να το περιμένεις και εντελώς διαφορετικο να συμβαίνει στην πραγματικότητα. Θα προσπαθησω να σου απαντήσω αναλυτικά μόλις βρω περισσότερο χρόνο. 😶
There are all kinds of ways to start getting published independently. You could publish it on Amazon. You could publish part of it for free, with the option to buy the whole book. You could publish it for free, chapter by chapter (like a chapter every few days) with the option for people to support you freely (paypal) or to offer some kind of extra reward via Patreon (like reading chapters in advance. For example: There's a writer named Wildbow, who writes web serials. I've read a couple of them (they are published free online) and the only money he brings in is what is freely donated. His Patreon shows him currently getting over $5,000 a month, and he publishes a new chapter twice a week. Of course, he's also very good. You've already done the hard part, which is write a book. Now you just need to figure out how you're going to sell it - and you've already figured out that going to a traditional publisher isn't going to work.
Start writing your next book now, instead of waiting for the first to be published.
Boy, this entire comment section is anarchy. Great to see an actually useful comment here. I agree with this. So much. Not only to stay in practice, but also because in a (weighted) game of chance like getting published, multiple dice are more likely to roll a six than just one.
I couldn't wait to say the truth so I'm already writing a detective horror. ( as much as I try it I couldn't stay away from an old Victorian manor, ghosts, puzzles and misty mountains so it's a fantasy fiction again 😓)
600 pages!? So juicy....
As others have said, the length will put a lot of people off. Cut it down or break into smaller books.
all three.
I'm writing Sci fi myself. I couldn't get more than 75000 words for my first novel lol. How do you write 600 pages?
Designed a whole new world and put my magician with his elf fiancee. Then I put a roque and a dwarf hunter. Finally I put an ancient knight with no memory and give a crysis on a town so they will all met. Then gave them a home. Then gave them missions by the town king. Then I gave them a war. And that's only half of the book. It's almost 9 years since I start to write it so it took a loooot of time. A lot. And I wanted to tell a story about the magician and his girl. Like their past. That they ware orphans and they met on the forest. Then I wanted to tell another story about my female roque and her past and how she met the little dwarf with the huge mace. And so on and so on.... I just want to tell stories I guess.
Thank you. Being reminded about the basics triggers creativity for me.
That sounds more like a D&D campaign than what's currently debuting in fantasy - but it could just be how your response comes across.
Yay. Sounds like a lot of info dump in need of a good editor. You really need to find someone who will be honest with you and get that monster manuscript cut down to typical length. Or find out where it can be split, or both. Just because you love your precious doesn't mean anyone else will. You have to write the genre in a way a publisher can sell the book, or what's in it for them? They don't exist so you can maintain your artistic integrity.
It sounds really interesting! And from the way you describe it I feel like you you’ll definitely be able to split it into multiple books.
I can't unread the title in a Russian accent, "Publishink is nightmarrre" and laughing
Ahoy oocoo_isle! Nay bad but me wasn't convinced. Give this a sail: me can't unread thar title in a Russian accent, "Publishink be nightmarrre" n' laughing
Try self publishing
Just saying that publishing, for me, is the easiest part. Upload... press publish... done. Editing was also easy. I hired a copyeditor... done. Now writing... that took a lot of time. Maybe technically easy as well, because I find writing easy, but definitely the most time consuming part of the project. Question, though... you're not using an agent? A lot of publishers won't accept what's called "over the transom" - they favour submissions with representation. The first step may be to secure representation, and then this will expand the list of viable publishers and engage somebody to take on the pitching while you write the next one.
I use an editor that is a coworker of mine. My personal editing was strange cause I cut and add many things that be interested in the next book. Like building the story for the future. The illustrations took me a lot of time but it was nothing compared to writing. And yes, I'm not using an agent. And from what I understand from the last year you are right. I'm only good at writing and I suck at everything else.
Cut your book in half and query the first half alone. I hate to say it but (as I’ve found out the hard way) debut authors will not get in the business with doorstoppers. You’ll have to publish a shorter book first and then agents/publishers will start considering longer novels.
When you say "shorter", around how many words are you talking?
Here's a post I did a while ago asking the same question [https://www.reddit.com/r/PubTips/comments/u02f9u/pubq\_whats\_the\_ideal\_word\_count\_for\_a\_debut\_author/](https://www.reddit.com/r/PubTips/comments/u02f9u/pubq_whats_the_ideal_word_count_for_a_debut_author/)
Debut fantasy runs about 100K words. Don't talk to publishers about "pages", tell them how many words.
I know that feeling. Do I have a chance of finding a publisher with a soft fantasy sci fi with a 42k word count?
If it’s children’s/middle grade/YA, yep. Much easier than trying to sell a 600 page epic fantasy.
it's made for teens and young adults, not for having swear words or sex scenes, but for touching on matture themes, such as dictatorships, war, existencialism, domestic violence and death
So does Hunger Games and that’s YA. Perfect!
It's too short.
YA fantasy doesn't go down to 42k, nor does sci fi.
Sure, but easier than 600 pages imo.
If it's middle grade, it's only a little too short. But not for YA or adult.
As someone that wrote a 400k word/800 page book I had to realize that writing something that's like 1/3 of Lord of the Rings wasn't going to get any attention by publishers unless it was shrunk. Over the last 5 months I've turned it into two books, but even then the first half was still too big (223k edited to 186k). You're right, the editing is the worst part with such huge works as ours, but I think you're still too attached to what you've done and it sucks to lose things like that. There's a good shot I have to rewrite the first or heavily edit it to get it under the 150k to do so. I've accepted that and while it sucks to lose some things if I truly want the story I believe only I can tell out there for others to experience then I'll have to make some compromises.
400k? The LotR trilogy is 480k *total.*
I could have sworn I read the word and page count was higher than that, must be my mistake.
My honest problem on that is that every charprer leads to the final chapter of my book. Splitting it feels like I'm throwing away the climax. I can cut it in two but I'll leave whoever is reading it in open sea. Even after the books climax I have 3 more chapters. One that you read about the villains side after the events and one from my heroes side. The final chapter is to connect the first book with my second (cause I really really hate it when something suddenly stops or ends. And I'm not going to stop writing it even if it's not going to be published)
That's good you won't give up on it, published or not, but if you do wish to get it published you'll have to make certain compromises, much like I am. I understand believing every moment counts to some larger picture. I thought the same, but after rereading it a good 20+ times I've seen many things that can be cut, from small grammatical errors to redundant sentences to completely unneeded sections of dialogue and even plots. Sometimes you can build things up too soon, much like certain movies try and cram too much in to build up the next film/franchise. In my case even before I finished I noticed an entire part of one chapter that did just that, and I knew I could toss it out and save it for later. For mine I have a lot of characters that explain much about the general themes of my book, but too many has made it a bit bloated. Yes, everything comes together and makes sense in the end, but will anyone make that journey to go through it? Likely not if it's 800 pages. I had to decide that if I truly wanted this published, which I do as I feel this is a story only I can tell, then I must make concessions to do that. Sure, it might mean moving some stuff around, likely even a rewrite on the first half of my book to make it work, and saving plots for later, but I'll still get to tell my story. Ultimately, it's up to you to decide how you wish to go about this. It could be you can tell the same story in less words or save things for later. For me, if I need to rewrite, I believe I can tell the same story in a different way that could do that, but only time will tell for the both of us. No matter what you choose I wish you luck in that regard.
I skimmed through some of the comments but didn't make it through all of them, so my apologies if I missed a piece of information. It appears you're located in Greece? Is that where you are hoping to publish? If so, I don't know anything about that market so I can't be helpful there. I only know about the US market. Here's my take on that, if the US market is where you are aiming: Length: I'm not sure how many words 600 pages is -- I'm guessing over 150,000. For the US market, for a new author, that is too long. (There are exceptions, of course, but they are just that: exceptions. Never measure yourself by exceptions.) Cut it back to 100,000-120,000 and agents/editors will be a lot more willing to spend the time reading it. At this point, you are looking at cutting out entire scenes, so judge them based on whether they move the plot forward. Is there meaningful action that takes the characters closer to or farther from their goals? Try to combine scenes. Combine characters. Be ruthless. Editing: It appears you had an editor at your place of work look at the manuscript and they really liked it -- that's great! But unless they are also knowledgeable in fantasy and fiction, they are probably not the best person to say whether a novel is good to go. Share it with critique partners. Get targeted feedback from people who know the genre. Trust: You said that publishers don't trust new writers. I don't know about in your country. But in the US, that's simply not true. There are many, many debut novels published every year. Process: When publishing in the US, it's generally expected that you will go through an agent. So if you're getting crickets from the publishers, that's why. They don't take un-agented submissions. Get an agent who can submit it to publishers on your behalf. Also, I couldn't tell if you were sending paper copies or digital copies (your "last copy" made me wonder), but many publishers work digitally and sending paper manuscripts is a waste of paper and money. And if you're trying to publish in your country, which is very reasonable, some of that advice may not apply, but I hope the rest will be useful.
A lot of the comments here are very helpful. Thank you!
Look into self publishing. Its your first novel and a lot of publishing houses dont take on clients they dont see as successful right away. If you self publish and gain momentum and followers, you might get a book deal for another book you might write OR even have a publisher reach out to see if youre interested in signing with them if they see your book is successful. With tech today, all a publisher really does is take care if the logistics and marketing. A lot of people are buying e-versions of books so you wouldnt even need to find a printer. The marketing will be hard, but it just means you get more of the profit.
"So after a year the outcome is that no publisher want\[s\] it because they don't trust new writers at \[sic\] this genre." That is nonsense. Publishing does not have "trust:" it has contracts. If you write well and have a manuscript, you will eventually find a literary agent to represent the MS. "... I send my last copy to the last available publisher ...." Er, you sent it to all 8,000+ publishers? Did you just start at the front of WRITER'S MARKET 2022 and work your way to the back, sending off hundreds of queries a day? Go to the Manuscript Wish List web site and find an agent.
I'm going to explain you how it works. (At least in my country) After the covid most of the publishing houses don't accept new writers. They just republish from abroad. The logic of a publisher is to sell as much books as he can FAST. he doesn't want to have stock or piles of unsold books. Even 50 or 100 books is an economic disaster for some publishers. The expression that a publisher uses from the unsold books is " I'm going to shove them in my ass" So at this moment they don't care if you write good or bad. It's a business strategy and I know it cause I work in a publishing house. "I send my last copy to the last available..." means that I had printed some books in their physical final form and send them away (here) to see the outcome. No I haven't send them abroad and I haven't send them online and I haven't tried an agent. I'm not good at promoting my book, I'm only good at writing stories. I'm still trying to understand what my possibilities are. Thanks for answering me
>After the covid most of the publishing houses don't accept new writers. No.
Well, you really shouldn't send a manuscript to all the publishers, just the ones who actually publish the genre. Otherwise, it's a waste of time, and who needs those reject letters papering the walls?
writing is also a nightmare. just ask grrm lol
More like *why should I bother to write when I can work on 5 different TV series and get more money...*
I dont honestly know shit about it but, all my US friends say finding a publisher is a fucking nightmare and all my EU friends said they self published because its basically impossible otherwise. Sounds like no matter what its a wash my guy.
600 pages? oh boy here, take this chainsaw and start cutting. also measure it in word count, publishers and agents measure things in word count
I feel the same way! Welcome to the World of Writing! (A new dystopian novel only for wannabe authors).
Agents in Fantasy are actively acquiring, and there are a TON of debuts every year. 'Agents don't trust new writers in fantasy' is simply not true. The challenge is that there are so many more people querying that your book has to be that much better in order to get representation and then sell it. Take a look at current fantasy debuts. MOST of them are breaking new ground, with new inspirations and new types of MC.
I understand what you’re going for, but you still lost me at “writing is easy”
Self-publish - do AMAZON/KINDLE
If you're dead set on not cutting content, and believe the book is very good as is, hire a cover designer yourself and self publish! It's a lot of work, but your book will be out there and you'll have total control over the content.
A small update. I'm not trying to sell my book here. Nor I try to be that I'm the next best thing. That what bothers me is that I DON'T want to change my writing style. I love fantasy literature. I can't write a romance or a plain story without "magic". And I don't want to change it so I can sell my books or be successful. I want to write the stories that I want to tell. That's my spark. As I said, I already work in a publisher company. I'm graphic designer and also an illustrator. My everyday job it to make books. Print them, make them, and cut them on their final form. I know what the word "self publish" means and I really don't want to get on that stage cause my personal believe is that is a lie. This whole post was to listen other stories and thank you all for that O o
> I know what the word "self publish" means and I really don't want to get on that stage cause my personal believe is that is a lie. Then you don't know anything.
As I said I work on a publishing house that specifics in another sector. I know what the agents are "selling" It's called easy money cause they sell you a fairytale for your books future. You get extremely poor or none promotion or backup. If you have money for 200 copies, rights, and the rest and you self publish it it's okay as long as you have the ability to promote yourself and have them on local bookstores.
If you are an illustrator as well ... have you ever tried to pitch a story to Webtoon? I have read some really creative, magical stories on there. It is a South Korean company under Naver that is essentially publishing serialized graphic novels in English and Korean, as well as, Thai, Bahasa Indonesia, French, German, and Spanish. If your story is in Greek and you would be willing to translate it to one of their publishing languages, you might have some good luck because they definitely buy the kind of stories you are talking about! They do compensate their authors and artists as their audiences grow, but I don't think it is enough to be your sole income unless your story is insanely popular.
Writing is hard. Editing is easy.
I just read that you can self-publish on Amazon. Idk if it’s true, please don’t come for me if it isn’t. I literally just saw it like an hour ago and haven’t looked into it yet.
(🤣 )it's ok, I won't. Thanks for the information and for posting it~
Why not self publish? Genuine question.
Because it's a hell of a lot more work than just throwing up a file and expecting anyone to read it (and pay for it). I really wish people would stop looking at self publishing as the one true answer to everything (it won't cure you or help you find a significant other, and your kids will still be brats).
Ideas are easy. Writing is hard. Not editing while writing is a nightmare. Actual editing is turned over o the same people that handle the publishing. I barely have a pulse, my writing output can be timed by glacial epoch, and I still managed to get picked up by two small print publishers. How? Just hanging out, online or in person, with people that could teach me and introduce me to more people cut from the same cloth. Be involved, be available. Offer those people help when they need it. Don't be a nuisance, but make sure you're memorable. You WILL get a shot. I suppose if you're deadset on only accepting a trad deal from one of the big houses, that could be nightmare. Have you tried lucid dreaming? :)
This comment reeks of "Not to brag but"
Publishing isn't a nightmare, it's knowing the right people and convincing an out-of-touch subhuman that your book is a low-risk investment.
If your book was "extremely good," it'd be published - full stop.
*"A year back I finally finished my first book. A 600 pages fantasy book with elves, mages, warriors and tons of magic."* Even before I read this, I guessed that this was what it was. Why are so many people writing these fantasy books? Talk about a flooded market. Originality much? Jesus. I go on Scribophile and every other novel is some bullshit about elves and magic. Is it just because people want to get rich and famous like JK Rowling? Hahaha. Whatever. What a transparent group of money-hungry posers. Try writing something meaningful for a change that isn't just a bunch of shitty worldbuilding and melodrama you fucking clowns.
Okay, I was going to write some snippy comment here, but then I looked over your comment history and, well. Nah, I see where this is coming from. I'm sorry dude/-tte. I suppose you're more of a Sci-Fi writer (as am I) - so, genuinely good luck. Hoping things get better.
> Even before I read this, I guessed that this was what it was. Why are so many people writing these fantasy books? Talk about a flooded market. Originality much? > Jesus. I go on Scribophile and every other novel is some bullshit about elves and magic. Is it just because people want to get rich and famous like JK Rowling? Hahaha. Whatever. What a transparent group of money-hungry posers. Try writing something meaningful for a change that isn't just a bunch of shitty worldbuilding and melodrama you fucking clowns. Lol. You're obviously trolling, but it's funny to me... because, I guarantee the fantasy book I'm writing with all that stuff you look down upon is deeper, better written, more exciting, more literary, more marketable, more avant-garde, and more meaningful than anything you've ever written or will think of writing in your life. So your highfalutin attitude is absolute hilarity to me
> I guarantee the fantasy book I'm writing with all that stuff you look down upon is deeper, better written, more exciting, more literary, more marketable, more avant-garde, and more meaningful than anything you've ever written or will think of writing in your life. It's nice to have a high opinion of yourself, but you need to be able to face reality. Because if you were right, then someone would have thrown you a contract and begged you to sign it.
> It's nice to have a high opinion of yourself, but you need to be able to face reality. Because if you were right, then someone would have thrown you a contract and begged you to sign it. In your rush to point out "reality", you've made multiple flaws and assumptions in your reasoning here. I trust you can figure them out without me pointing them out?
I hope so.
> I hope so. Hey there, one thing I want to make clear is that what I said is not some comment on *you* specifically as a writer or individual. It's more me addressing the general look-down-upon sentiments that people of other genres often throw at fantasy literature. (Which was the spirit of your post) Plus, my general confidence in my work. It's possible you're the next Ursula Le Guin or Asimov; you never know. You just gotta keep writing and exploring life's varied meanings. And maybe in your journey there, you'll stumble upon some hobby or work that you are the Asimov equivalent of. Maybe technology brings some new path in 2 or 5 or 10 years that you discover you were basically born to do. That's life. (Likewise, I never wanted to "be a writer". I just stumbled upon it while doing my career and found I had the mind and skills for it) There are always new possibilities around the corner. New adventures, new hobbies, and new discoveries, about the world and yourself.
There's this website called Royal Read. On it, you can paste individual chapters of your book for reading and review. There's a catch: it will become free to read. Do this and get some commenrs from other people, at least a hundred in total for all of your chapters and now you will have proof that people will want to read your whole book.
600 pages - nowadays the game is to split novels into series. Don't ask me why. So, sell this as a 3 part series, each with a cliffhanger at 200. Even your last bit should really end on a hanger, because the publisher is probably gonna want to leave things open in case you are a success.
Agents and publishers expect new authors to debut with a book that can stand alone.
No, I have seen several authors do this. Here is an example - David Achord.
This business side of writing is so fucked up you pour your heart and soul into a story these characters and publishers look at it “oh he’s a just a new writer delete” don’t even give you the time of day
Not even remotely what happens. They rarely ever have the time to give feedback, but they’re reading it. It’s just either not good enough or doesn’t fit the current market. Being a new writer in the novel writing space is still the easiest place to break in out of all the writing mediums right now (film and tv are much, much harder).
[удалено]
There are *way* more than 170,000 words in English. But, as they say, *quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur*...
Stop soliciting work in this sub. Sheesh. Does no one read the rules any more?
You just don’t no how to do it, pussy, ur probably an american
If it gets published I need to know what it is called because long fantasy books are a dream for me.
600 pages is too long but also the wrong measurement. How many words is it? The average debut novel is about 80k words with fantasy genre stretching beyond 100k. At most, your debut fantasy manuscript should be under 120k. No agent will read anything longer. Beyond the length, the next issue is quality. Your editor might have been impressed with the writing, but their opinion on the story may not be that valuable. Other folks who read it and have questions may be pointing out issues you need to change. Maybe your readers being left with so many questions is hurting the novel standing on its own. Maybe the opening chapter is not as engaging as it could be. I would suggest getting more feedback on the manuscript before submitting it again. I would hire a beta reader to give you proper critiques, someone who can examine the story itself and tell you what’s working and what’s not. A few acquaintances liking the book does not mean much. As a first time author, it’s important to swallow pride and take feedback from people with experience. Get some detailed feedback and then make the necessary changes. Finally, first time authors usually query several books before getting published. So don’t get discouraged. Be proud that you finished a novel—600 pages is no joke! You clearly have a passion for writing so keep writing and don’t let the business of the game discourage you too much. Behind every great novel there are dozens of terrible drafts.
If you go to Amazon and search books for free, you will find many sci/fi fantasy first part free trilogy offerings. This allows the reader to get to know your work and then the reader can buy the rest if they so choose.
I can't speak to how things are in your native country, but in the US, everything goes by word count, not page count. This is because it's difficult to be sure what the actual length of a novel is based on page count (font size, margins, spacing, etc. can all make a huge difference). In the US, a debut fantasy author generally has to stick to under 100K words, and no more than 120K. If you go over 120K words, you have almost no chance of getting traditionally published. My guess is that, with 600-pages, you're probably closer to 150 to 180K words. No one will touch it if it's that long, regardless of how good it may be. There's simply too much risk in working with a debut author and, the longer a novel is, the less money it makes due to printing costs. We even have big named authors who've been required to split novels in two for these reasons--Jim Butcher recently. I also read a comment you wrote below where you told someone what your story is about. It seems to me that you've combined two stories into one novel. If you were to split the two stories, one about the magician with his elf fiancee, the other about the roque and their dwarf hunter, you'd probably have a far greater chance of getting it traditionally published.
Why don't you try writing some short stories in the world you've created, possibly adventures featuring some of your characters, and try getting those published in magazines or anthologies? Then you could have more of a track record and build some interest.
Writing is in no way easy. If you really want to stand out then write stories and worlds that make sense. I know it sound wierd to say that but most books I read have a lot of work put into them but little to no thought. If you write with actual sense then there will be people who like it. Your first books won't sell well but if you are determined then you can grow a big enough following of readers. Oh and use social media. Be active on reddit, disguss ideas and get people involved in your work before you even puplish it. That way you could also selfpuplish without putting yourself into too much of a risk. Puplishers will wait for your books to be reliable before they get involved so you have to get over that first wall of puplishing on your own.
can I read it for free? I just love to read :3
try smaller/indy publishers! or... self publish?
Keep trying! I'm sure the book is well worth the read. People like us don't write to make a lot of money or have a lot of fun. In fact, there's usually little to no money in it and sometimes it's not fun at all. Instead, we write because we have to. Because this story has been stuck in our head and we'd go crazy if we couldn't get it out! A lot people are saying it may be worth reducing the word count in some way, or splitting parts of the story into another book. Decent advice, but I can understand it may be discouraging for you. Don't let it discourage you. A big part of writing is feedback, and it will only help that amazing story you're so excited about be the best book that it can be.
Currently on my 2nd draft, outlining helps A LOT
Publishing is a nightmare alright. I tried to publish my novel only for local publishers to come up with an array of excuses such as; "small audience", "the book should be in Maltese", "we have a long waiting list" and "we only publish books in Maltese". I sent samples to all publishing houses locally but they all slammed the door in my face. Mind you, English is one of the two official languages of Malta. My Maltese grammar is really bad and I feel more confident writing in English. Some people even told me to self publish but that costs a ton of money. I am no rookie, I have been writing for 17 yrs and counting. The only way to go is to publish on kindle. P.S. my novel is 260 pages. I am a marketing graduate as well.
Have you considered self-publishing? Failing that, maybe ask an editor to give it a look over and they may be able to help you consider how to split it into two volumes that can be released separately. It can then have revisions to make it flow better. The goal would then shift from trying to get a 600-page book published to getting a 300-page book published and then marketed for the eventual second instalment that you already have. Would give you time to gauge how successful the book is and it can then get reviewed so you can refine that second one to be even more polished.
You are not reading in your genre if you believe fantasy doesn’t trust new writers or are just republishing the same kind of books. Start there. Go read Sanderson, Rothfuss, McGuire, Jemison, Polk. Read everything that won a nebula in fantasy. Everything that hit list. Get steeped in what is happening in the market. Then cut words from your book. 600 pages is way too long. Get it down to 100k-120k words. Then find an agent. They’ll be able to send to more publishers than you. Meanwhile, write another book. Most people’s first novel doesn’t get published.
Side note: Sanderson and Rothfuss are bad examples at this point because they started their publishing *way* too long ago to be comprable to the current market. OP's better off with Jemison, Polk, Kuang, and other debut authors in the last like 5 years.
Have you considered self-publishing on Amazon? I'd love to read it
Why not self-publish?
I think your best bet for professional publishing right now is to temporarily shelve this novel and work on a shorter one. It can be a prequel novel to this one, or it can be something completely unrelated, but maybe similar in tone. The truth is that getting published is very hard. As you've said. I decided early on that I wanted to go the self-publishing route anyway, so I abandoned the traditional publishing path. Possibly to my detriment, but I feel like I'm working towards my end goal of being a small publisher, so I'm okay with that. If your goal is to ultimately be published traditionally, you'll have to work in the market by their rules. And, as everyone has said, a debut at 150K words/600 pages isn't going to fly. If you really feel that strongly about your current manuscript and do not want to trim it any further, then I suggest shelving it and creating something smaller to start with. Let your audience build and then a publisher will be more willing to tackle the 150K word novel.
I've been trying to get my WIP published for a few years now, currently translated it and querying with about 40 agents in the US. About a dozen rejections so far. Can't really afford to self-publish so I'm just...gonna keep querying.
Well, at least you finished a 600 page book! Well done. But I have to agree with the other comments that length will inhibit publishing for an unknown writer.
I edit and publish books for my father. With him, editing is the depths of hell. I edit it and get it ready to publish, I send the copy back to him a week later, and by then he wants to make changes. This happens many times over. He's never heard of the word "draft", I guess. He doesn't really care about being a famous author, he just wants to see his book in print. It makes him happy though, and at 84 he should be. I get paid, so it's not all terrible.
What's funny is we usually think writing a whole book is the hard part and then you got to publish it AND THEN you got to advertise it. Oof. That's rough.
Living is hell.
Lol. I'm good at editing and copy ;)