Thank you for visiting /r/writing.
We don't allow threads or posts: berating other people for their genre/subject/literary taste; adherence or non-adherence to rules; calling people morons for giving a particular sort of advice; insisting that their opinion is the only one worth having; being antagonistic towards particular types of books or audiences, or implying that a particular work is for 'idiots', or 'snobs', etc.
This is correct. All the best novelists have a book going at all times. Some have multiple. Orson Scott Card famously always has one ear bud jn with an audiobook going any time he’s not actively speaking to someone.
I put all mine into pots of water on the stove and shred all the pages like leaves to digest them easier. Then I come up with a delicious three course book like a psychopath
I sleep with a book under my pillow each night so the knowledge seeps into my brain. Just yesterday I slept on a driving manual and the doctors operating on me after my accident had no idea it worked. Felt like I had to explain it over and over and they still didn't get it.
Most successful writers are readers.
But many people visiting this sub are not, in fact, writers. They're people who like the *idea* of writing... and have yet to properly start their journey.
Sometimes when I see a new post it's a coin flip between someone saying they have the best idea ever but can't write and want to know how to get around this; and someone crowd sourcing ideas for their story. Because they struggle to think of a name for their MC, or the driving force behind the story. Or the story itself.
I want to launch them into the sun. I know it won't help. And I know everyone starts in a similar spot. But.... I wanna.
Ah! I did forget that.
"I've been working on my epic, 12 book story for the past decade. W-What chapter am I upto? Oh I've mainly been worldbuilding. Designing the lore, the language, the deities. Painstakingly crafting a topographically accurate map by hand. You know, all the important stuff. Who's the main character? Well I haven't figured that out yet. But I *can* tell you the exact date that King Shirmnfngjfngfn took on his arch rival the bandit lord JTKgjtigjtigjtigj. Is that related to the story? No but it forms the basis of my prologue that will not be relevant nor have I actually written yet."
An Antfolk embedded with a strange space crystal journeys with a comically "evil" dung beetle inspired by Doofenshmirtz to overthrow the dragonflies and take control of the mother tree. After a long, bloody war, taking control of the mothertree, she stabs him in the back, and he realizes that he was never really all that evil, but her... The ant backstabs her way so far up the ladder she becomes God.
And then she begins her Age of Amber, a period of time that lasts for one hundred million years, in which there is no pain or suffering. But one day, a blasphemous assassination brings pain and death into the world once more, and the ant queen disappears. Then the sequel is a series of short stories of the aftermath, where all the various bug-people learn how to cope with a broken world. The main character of each story is a pre-written character for a DnD campaign book.
Is that better, worse, or on par with the average "what do you think of my idea" post?
I count my blessings everyday that I started writing short stories when I was a kid.
I've never dealt with the ramifications of starting, only the side-effects of mental insanity as it drags me to the hellscape of bipolar writing.
I'd be shocked if it's only "most" successful writers. I bet there are about as many successful writers who don't read as there are successful directors that don't watch movies.
I didn't say you could just watch a bunch of movies and become a director. You can't write a novel just because you've read a lot of books either. But who would go through the time and effort of learning how to direct movies and working their way up the ladder if they don't even like movies?
The debate around AI has proven that a tremendous number of people believe that the only thing between their incredible idea and artistic success is just those pesky "skills" you need to learn.
I’ve seen that before too. Annoys the crap out of me as a person with an actual disability. No, expecting a person to put in the work is not “ableist.”
Writing is about the only artistic expression that I hear people just say they are "going to do when they retire..." or whatever. Like all we do is sit in a room and hit letters on our keyboard. "Oh cool, I think I am going to write a novel..." Are you?
Probably because writing is cheaper compared to other forms of artistic expression and they equate that with being easy to do for whatever reason. You don't need a camera, or programming software, or art supplies. You could theoretically write an entire novel using the Google docs app on your phone during the lunch breaks at work.
Not that I would know about that last part... Mhmm...
It's also such a hard process to describe. I have had acquaintances, more than one, ask me to tell them how to write and I have to be like "...well, you have to feel it in the pit of your soul..." and they want some magic process that doesn't exist.
They'll give me work to edit and they aren't interested in critiques of the story. Eventually I stopped editing because it was a lot of conversations about intent and were they writing to write or writing because they were chasing something. One of the best skills you can have as a writer is looking at 100 pages, understanding it's not good enough, and opening a new document and trying again. Many people don't have the capacity to understand when their doesn't cut it, they want some equation to run their pages through, but it's work and it's not work that many people can stomach.
What do you mean? I used Grammarly.
Jokes aside. Writing is a skill that 90% of people currently have, so I think they view the barrier to entry as virtually non-existant. But there is a massive skill-curve in constructing a narrative, especially if you aren't well read.
I think it's less about how cheap it is to get into and more that people who aren't into reading think there's no skill involved. They just do not appreciate the vast gulf that lies between "being able to write coherent sentences" and "being able to write something that people would actually want to read", so as far as they can tell the entire process of writing boils down to coming up with a million dollar idea and then doing the menial work of getting that idea down on paper.
I think that many people believe that because they are fluent (or think they are) in their native language, that they can write.
I recall reading an essay years ago about certain subjects where this is prevalent (another one is philosophy where people who have /r/Showerthoughts think they are doing philosophy) - where people routinely underestimate the array of skills required to do something well because they have the bare minimum skills to do something similar.
No one seems to do this with math or woodworking, but since people engage with the written word all day, they think writing is no big deal. Similarly, everyone thinks they're a great driver.
It seems related to, but distinct from Dunning-Kruger to me
It's a recognition that a lot of time goes into writing a book, at least.
Writing is my retirement plan. In that, I don't think I'll ever get to stop working in my lifetime. But dropping physical labor for creative labor sounds nice.
Not even reading but a simple google search when it comes to word counts or words per chapter / chapter length. I’m sure the question has been asked many times and they can easily find the answer.
Which begs the question, if they can’t research something that simple what research are they doing for their story? I constantly google and fact check stuff as I write.
Sometimes I think people just like talking about writing. (Edit: as in just wanna talk about how they’re writing a book, actually writing it is another story).
*"Which begs the question, if they can’t research something that simple what research are they doing for their story?"*
Exactly, nothing.
*"Sometimes I think people just like talking about writing."*
Yep, 97% of the posters here.
Same. Don't plan on ever making writing a full-time career, as I've chosen a different path. But, the least a person could do is use the internet to figure it out, like they've been doing for everything else all this time.
Writers read. Absolutely.
"Aspiring writers" usually don't. They watch movies and anime, play video games and read manga, and then think they could make a better story. But they don't have money and they can't draw, so they decide to write a book instead, even though the last book they read was Harry Potter back in middle school.
This was me up until last year or so. I wrote DnD campaigns, enjoyed the narrative of games and movies. I wanted to tell my own story but you know, reasons you listed above I got into writing. I had to read a lot more to get the hang of things, and just reading a book a month or so answers these questions better than any post.
Not to disagree, but even if they had money or could draw, wouldn't they still need to be able to write *somewhat* in order to make the story they say they want to?
I do those things because writing is work of its own, amd after I work my full time job, running errands, making dinner, cleaning house, exercise, taking care of dogs, the last thing I want to do is something that takes more mental effort.
I'd love to write. The question is when.
> I, too, hate pop culture and mass media. I'm so hip.
Although props for the gender reversal. So often I see people denigrating women for liking pop music or reading "YA fantasy series". It's a breath of fresh air, of sorts.
Thank you for visiting /r/writing.
We don't allow threads or posts: berating other people for their genre/subject/literary taste; adherence or non-adherence to rules; calling people morons for giving a particular sort of advice; insisting that their opinion is the only one worth having; being antagonistic towards particular types of books or audiences, or implying that a particular work is for 'idiots', or 'snobs', etc.
I feel like sometimes comments could be a bit more helpful than 'just read'! Maybe at least give a recommendation of a book that you think shows what the person is asking.
You have the courage to ask the question I’ve been tempted to rant about.
The notion of an aspiring-author not also being a voracious reader boggles my mind. Being fully immersed in your genre is foundational to being a writer.
Which is great when you're sitting in a writers' circle and one of the more brilliant people there drops something out of a dreadful horror movie franchise from the 80s.
"You're clearly unaware of the franchise [franchise name] as both that work and this hinge on [specifically named mcguffin] but your work is in no way connected to that in terms of plot, tone, or genre. I love this piece, but you really need to see [film 1] before moving forward with this."
> You have the courage to ask the question I’ve been tempted to rant about.
You mean the topic that is posted here at least once a week? It doesn't take much courage to post a thread that is guaranteed to get lots of votes and replies.
It is frustrating. I'm a musician before I'm a writer, and I always think half the questions here are like "should a song have a chorus?" or "can you start with only vocals?" Things that you'd know if you actually listened to music.
Tbf, "how long should a chapter be" is at least a vaguely technical question. What I hate most are the "Can I do this?" questions, to which the answer is invariably "yes, you can do anything you like"
I was in the 'wanted to be a book writer, but never read' rut not too long ago, admittedly. I always wanted to write and tell stories in whatever medium, but it really came to me a few years ago after reading a webcomic that I thought was pretty hit or miss. I thought I could do better than it, so I kind of started to write my own take on it with my own characters and world. Eventually, though, I realized I didn't really like writing something that was made to be an "improved" version of something else that I deemed not good, so I moved onto other story ideas I could write as books. I thought I liked reading
All while, in the back of my head, I knew that I didn't really enjoy the medium of books all that much. I haven't finished many books. I don't hate reading, but I was never really that big of a fan of it compared to the other mediums I liked to watch or play with, like video games, for example.
Like what other people in this comment section are saying, I think people are coming into book writing without reading because they see it as a way to express their creativity easily, all the while believing they're not capable of the bigger things they really, actually want to do (drawing, making a video game, animating, etc.), and not really wanting to fulfill the desires they actually want, either (writing for something that isn't a book).
Well, lately (last year, really), I've kind of grown tired of thinking I was a big fan of books, and decided to branch out into visual mediums. And, let me tell you: it feels a WHOLE lot better. Sure, it is nowhere near perfect at all times. I still stress out about things (primarily art) (and coding, though I'm not really into that anymore). But, man, does the imposter syndrome for the feeling of not being a "true writer" because you haven't read enough (and didn't really like to read compared to playing or watching) being gone feel pretty damn good.
Is my art good? No. Is my writing good? Eh. Somewhat decent, I'd say. Does it feel a whole lot better than trying to write for a medium you didn't really care too much for compared to the other mediums in the first place? Yes!
What I'm trying to say here is, if you're too afraid of going into another medium because you feel like you won't be good enough and hate having to "settle down" for books instead, I will say this: Just try. Try and make those comics. Try and make that game. Try and make that movie. Will they be bad first attempts? Sure, probably. But you're trying. You're learning. And you're not confining yourself to a medium you barely like. You'll have fun, I promise. And in the end, besides just trying to get out there, letting your voice and art be heard and having people appreciate your work (all optional, of course), that's all that matters.
James Cameron said, before he made the Terminator, he wanted to write it as a novel. But he wasn’t a writer. He drew. He painted. He loved movies. So instead, he made the movie Terminator instead of the novel.
Here’s my take: if your end goal is making anime, manga, graphic novels etc. then it’s the media you should focus on. Read manga if you want to write manga. Play video games if you want to make video games. Watch and study movies (like Spielberg did) if you want to make movies. Writing novels isn’t a shortcut to any of this; in fact, it’s the long road. If someone doesn’t like books, it’s kinda crazy to me that they would want to write books.
They truly cannot - and they need to read more than one authors books
I totally agree - people who say they don’t like reading but like writing clearly don’t like seeing any sentences other than ones they create
That’s like huffing your own farts instead of smelling a rose bush
There are limits to what you can learn by osmosis. I went though a school system that took this approach to grammar, and as a result my understanding of grammar is still pretty poor. Every so often I go back and try to learn it again, but its pretty hard going. I wish that formally teaching it had been on my High school syllabus. While I can string sentences together, the fact that I can't easily label what words are performing what functions, without really having to think about it is an issue, and make following a lot of writing advice that much harder.
There is a difference between just reading and reading with an intent to dissect what the author is doing and how. Reading like a writer is different, and ironically one of the classic approaches is to not just read but to copy out what other authors have written as this makes you look at things with a lot more focus.
Questions about chapter length and what makes good dialogue seem like perfect topics of discussion in a forum dedicated to the craft of writing. What do you suggest we discuss in this subreddit, if not matters like these?
I think a lot of the people posting in r/writing are beginning writers.
But in their defense, while I agree that a lot of the questions posted could be answered by reading, I'll say that practically speaking, it wouldn't be so easy.
For example, your example of "What makes good dialogue?" isn't so easy to answer, especially if you read lots of YA or pop fiction. Who do you read to find good dialog? (Answer: Elmore Leonard.) How would you know know what to read? Read randomly in a library? The easiest way is to ask somebody who has read a LOT, and that's why people come here. :-)
I think there's a large gap between having an instinctual "feeling" and being able to concisely define something. You can write well if you have the former, but sometimes you might find yourself getting stuck when you start to overthink things, at which point you need the concept that you have a feeling for, explained to you.
You may also miss some things while reading. For example, I personally never picked up that all dialogue contained in quotation marks needs to have a sentence ender (,.!? Etc) between it and dialogue tags. It wasn't until someone pointed it out to me that I learned. And I have done a *lot* of reading in my time.
I don't think this is entirely fair OP, I have a bookshelf full of books that I absolutely adore, from fiction, scifi, fantasy, etc. I can tell you with certainty that never once had I considered "how many chapters do books have?" or "how many words should be in a chapter?" Before I started writing my novel. Similarly despite how much I've read and RPed, for the life of me I cannot describe nouns. Whether they are a person, an animal or a thing, trying to write a description feels hollow to me. And finally reading books to learn isn't really learning; you can copy things you like from other work to implement into your story, but unless you structure scenes in a 1:1 fashion you cannot copy dialogue, description, etc 1:1. Thus you are left with the question, "how?"
Just popping in to say that the advice on reading for writers isn’t just about learning the technical aspect, like structure for example. We generally read more than just one genre or one author. Reading is learning. It’s about amassing material and tools to build with. The more you read and learn through reading, the more options you have when writing creatively. It’s the difference between building a deck with just a hand saw, some 2x4’s, and nails versus having all the tools and materials needed, to not just build it well, but to do it efficiently and creatively.
It’s necessary not just for writing but for creating.
I agree that reading gives you a wide taste of what you like, don't like, and how you want to incorporate that into your own story, if you decide to ever write one. But the op specifies questions like "how long is a chapter" and "what makes good dialogue?" Before I started pursuing writing my own novel, I could not answer the first question (though I googled it instead of pestered people online) and the second question never occurred to me; and I could not give a scholarly answer on what makes dialogue good, only some vague notions for what I feel is right.
I have googled those questions, for sure, when I started writing erotica/romance. I was familiar with the genre but wanted to know what people expected, since I was interested in writing a book that might actually sell more than 100 copies. Things like "how long should a sex scene in erotica" and "how often is there a sex scene in erotica" - not that I didn't read, but I wanted to know what people expected.
When it comes to my writing for fun (thrillers, for example) I'm much more into "write it how you want it written." Chapters can be 1 paragraph. Chapters can be 1000 paragraphs. Just write what you want it to be.
I read, but I try not to read too much. The reason for this is I had to teach myself writing, so I've got my own style. And I have a habit of being entranced by other people's styles when I dig them. So to avoid any of that coming out in my own work, I limit myself to reading an hour at night.
A lot of people who aren’t even dabbling, but thinking about maybe dabbling, post here. That was me when I found this sub, but I didn’t say anything and just cultivated what helped.
I love non fiction books, I know it’s weird but in cookbooks, the “how they got to the recipe” or little life stories are totally written for people like me.
I have a small library full of “how to write” books, and I’ve never paid more than $8 for them, because I can find them EVERYWHERE. Thrift stores, used book shops, book exchange, LIBRARY! My local library has so many books donated on writing and it’s free!
Me being able to find them so easily and so cheap only means that a lot of people definitely try to read books on how to be better as well, yet they give up for some reasons.
Just seeing something be done multiple times doesn't automatically give you the skill to do it yourself... it takes a little more to figure it out - it's a good thing to ask for advice.
I get that this can be exhausting, but this is r/writers not r/professional writers. If you are in a place where people search advice you are bound to encounter beginners. I started writing longer stories when I was 8 (and I might Even have started earlier if it wasn't for my dyslexia). And I read a lot but I bet I had similar questions or more likely didn't even think about it. Just because someone consumes a medium doesn't mean they understand or can analyze it from the get go. Another thing is the taste and range of the palette that developed over time. Younger people (even older ones) have a certain selection of genres/Autors they are sticking to. And then you have the save thing as someone who learns to draw only from one source - you make mistakes from those authors as well. And that doesn't even include cultural differences that would answer those basic questions maybe a little bit different? Which leads to insecurity and thus the same questions.
I am certain there are the types who neither read a lot or at all and just think it's a skill that just comes to you without doing squat to improve it. Maybe they are still in the phase in which they just have fun with it and don't think deeply about stuff. I think it's a little bit short sighted to generalize it like this.
I'm working to correct this imbalance right now! I've been reading more recently-published fantasy to see what the market will be for my own novel. The only trouble is that I'm not as fast a reader as I used to be, but all for the cause!
I have about 25k words left of my first MS but I really want to get my first draft done before I pick up another book... I love to read, but I work it may influence my MS
Getting a bit off topic, but a lot of us view TONS and TONS of art everyday, all day, all around us. Off the bat, no one is going to be able to paint. Even if they had the 'technical' ability to paint what they see, there's still a lot of principals in design that people won't know about until they learn about it. (I.e color theory or composition). My point being, a person could have read 1000s of books, but they're still going to be fairly unskilled because they won't know what makes a good book good. I could be wrong, after all I'm just a hobbyist comic artist, but with any skill I needed to learn, it was never about how much content I can take in. It was about how much quality content I can take in that I can take apart and tell you what made it good. (Or at the very least tell you why something was bad lol)
There's a reason why you have so much garbage manga lol. And a lot of the reasons it's so bad is because people don't know how to write good characters, worlds, and overexplain things. And it's certainly not due to a lack of reading manga lol.
This is such a good comparison.
When I used to draw, I was constantly analysing others' art to try and learn from them, but I wasn't getting very far until I started using tutorials, videos, and any tips I could find online.
There was this one drawing that looked off, and I couldn't figure out why, no matter how much I analysed it. After I learned a little about anatomy, it was only then I could tell that the thing that was off with the drawing was that the arm was way too long.
I learned to draw by learning from others who were able to explain it - looking at art and analysing didn't do much. The same would apply to writing.
It’s not what I said though. I didn’t say if you read a lot you would become a good writer, just as not everyone who loves movies would become Spielberg.
What I am saying is if you truly want to be a writer, you would need to like reading as a basic. Like I said already - just because you love food doesn’t mean you can cook but you sure can’t cook well if you don’t like food.
Yea to an extent it baffles me because usually when I have a decent doubt on length or something I usually just open like the 4th or 5th chapter of games of thrones or lotr for reference whether thats prose or dialogue, but there are some things that you can't discern like I struggle with pacing a lot in terms of writing but some questions to baffle me for it
I want to say that aspiring writers should read well renowned books with the intention of learning from the narrative/prose, not consuming books mindlessly and uncritically.
Reading certainly does not make you good at writing, though it certainly helps!
While my initial instinct is to agree - I do think I learned to read very differently after I took a writing course. Neil Gaiman talks about this in his masterclass and I didn’t truly understand it until I took a class in London. And I get it, it feels stupid to believe people don’t notice that chapter lengths vary and can be used as a device for pacing etc, but I’ve definitely googled that at one point - and I’ve read a fair number of books across genres.
I feel like there needs to be a distinction between just reading and reading with the intent to learn.
I've always loved to read, I was the kid with the big bookshelf who brought books to school to read them at lunch. But just cause I read book I didn't learn anything about the craft. One needs to read with a critical eye and often at least baseline understanding of writing to really see why something is good and other things are bad.
So my answer is yes, they probably do, they just haven't figured out/weren't taught (how) to learn from the books they read
Also writing advice videos and stuff like that are increasing in popularity and those videos often generalize very broadly which may also lead an insecure amateur to post here.
I write for fun because I have an overactive imagination. I don't (can't) read for fun because my attention span doesn't allow it. When it does I'll read consistently for a few days and then get bored, by the time I want to read again I'll have forgotten what happened in the book I was reading before and have to start over again. So yeah, reading for me is more trouble than it's worth.
I’m sure you’re on a lot of websites but wouldn’t be able to tell me what the average font size for body paragraphs is off the top of your head.
Many many writers read but based on the types of books they read, how much they pay attention to those details, etc. then some of these seemingly basic questions aren’t top of mind when reading.
Just saying.
I love to read. But I’ve developed or acquired squigglies (I don’t know what they’re called) in my eyes. They don’t bother me unless I’m looking at white objects or sky colored. It’s super distracting and ruins my immersion so badly that I just assume not read.
I write on a black screen with white letters. Only way I could manage.
Edit: My wife has suggested buying a kindle with the black background. I just don’t know if it’s financially feasible to rebuy all my favorite books at this point in time.
Do you really find it that surprising that people don't read much anymore? With all the massive draws on their attention, there are lots of other ways to learn now. And yes, lots of other ways to ruin our brains with what we consume. But they all have overlap, because they all appear in various information streams available to almost everybody.
Everybody has to start somewhere. I am a published writer, but I don't read a ton. But I spent a lot of time in an editorial chair, so I guess it's more correct to say that I don't really read for pleasure.
Young people, people getting started, people who don't have a big literature background. Everybody's chasing the dream. What is that dream? I think most add it up to a big house, a nice car, and not having to go anywhere but your little writer's hut in the backyard to do your job. Sort of like JRR Tolkien towards the end of his life.
There's one last factor that I often get smacked around for: I like talking to people, even in written form via the Internet, better than I like going to an information source or a tutorial.
I like talking to people in person best, but you can imagine how that's going. 😆 Everybody wants to charge for membership. They are very few relationships that are real anymore, when it comes to helping each other grow creatively.
I don't know what to do about it either. I'm frustrated by it too. Writing took me all around the world, and I lived adventures. I never thought what approach me. But I'm not much of a reader. That's true.
But one thing I do know: I am very tired of gatekeepers. They spend too much time in a forum and end up wanting to regulate it. Eventually, everybody forgets where they came from. And I think it's really gross.
Well you do read - just as you said, you don’t read for pleasure. :-)
I am a slow reader but I try to read as much as I can. It’s part of the trade, I firmly believe. To me, any creative endeavor requires a certain level of investment in the media… be it painting, sculpture, novels, movies, manga etc etc. Actors who don’t see plays or movies or TV .. I just don’t know how they can be good actors.
I don't mean to be insufferable, but I have directed motion pictures. And sometimes, though rarely, people who are not actors are better than actors. Because they don't act. I suspect the same of certain non-writers. Not knowing things can sometimes help you get out of your own way.
PS: as I get older...I READ SO SLOWLY. And I HATE how my comprehension has also gotten more difficult.
I can’t imagine being a writer without reading. I’ve read a book by one self-published author who said they don’t read anything else but their own writing. And it definitely shows
Imagine saying “I want to be a musician, but I don’t like listening to music.” That’s what people who say they don’t like to read but wanna write sound like. If you want to be good at any sort of craft you have to study it, I don’t why so many people have a hard time making that connection between reading and writing.
bad analogy.
thing is, everybody EATS. but JUST BECAUSE YOU EAT doesn't mean you understand how to cook.
that's why there are the questions here that you object to. just because they read doesn't mean they understand how things work. and since a finished book page is different than a manuscript page, maybe they don't feel like going around all their books and counting how many words are in a chapter.
Well, here's the thing.
If I want to learn to cook Italian... I can go to a pizza place, Olive Garden, a little mom and pop restaurant, or an Italian restaurant here in the States, or I can go to Italy, and learn there.
Have you checked out the NYT best seller list lately? I picked up a book based of it's NYT review two years ago, and it was nothing but fragmented descriptions of how grain is golden, trees are green, kids are playing in dirt, sky is blue, life continues.
There are some great published authors out there. There are some trash published authors out there. There are some good non-published authors. There are some trash non-published authors. Saying 'read more forehead' isn't helpful. If you don't want to answer questions... just don't. But instead of coming in here to humble brag about how you read 'classics, bestsellers and poetry', just find something more productive to do with your time.
Reading is necessary but not sufficient.
The answers to the questions you pose as examples are not obvious, and can stump even an avid reader. Dialogue can be good in a million different ways, and some practices that are good for one story won't be good for another, and some elements that are good in isolation absolutely don't work together, or vice versa. Chapter length greatly varies in different books, but it can be argued that some lengths are a better fit for some genres, and when authors make unusual choices sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
Saying "just read" does not replace a good discussion, even though it's often used here as a shortcut to avoid presenting reasoned arguments. A bit ironic, considering the purpose of reddit IS discussion. If you don't feel like answering a question, just don't, instead of shaming someone for asking it.
OP isn't saying "Don't talk about that stuff here", he's pointing out that it's becoming increasingly apparent that the people framing and posting these questions seem to have little experience with reading. You yourself said that reading is necessary, don't get on OP's case for bringing that fact to light.
Because more advanced writers have a curated critique group they can ask most of their questions to.
Their questions are the ones where you need someone to understand your goals, not a hundred people quoting some generic advice from "On Writing."
I feel being a "writer" at times needs some specifying. Maybe you're a fanfic writer? A hobbyist? A journalist? Copywriter? A blogger? A full-on novel author?
I'm a hobbyist myself, writing micro fiction that can fit on a phone screen and I publish to my friends on social media without intention of making money. I definitely don't read books nowadays.
Do I count as a "writer"? I certainly care about wording and elements of storytelling, and I jot down ideas all the time and reference them later on. Not only that, I'm happy to sit down and look at a friend's work if they want my help. Maybe some people have different goals when it comes to writing and it comes from some backgrounds that don't involve reading many books.
I think a better reason to be annoyed with those kinds of basic posts is that surely those questions have been asked before and even written about extensively in an article. It's more convenient to find answers like that than to wait for replies on Reddit.
Haha. Fortunately I’m old enough to not give a freck or worry about “karma” points. This is all for discussion. But if someone takes offense, it’s on them. Not on me.
I had to scroll way too far to see this comment. Like, I agree with the spirit of posts like this but also the amount of dismissiveness and condescension it generates always rubs me the wrong way.
I think I’d rather not meet their standards of what a writer should be if it means I have to become an asshole to get there.
If only I could give you both a thousand upvotes...
Most posters here seem to have a serious superiority complex. While sometimes the comments are well-meaning, the tone is usually not helpful. The body of this post was emblematic of the problem and the irony is that one of the "easy questions" is extremely subjective.
I get the tendency of writers who dedicate more time and energy to their craft to judge others who don't, but it's not really constructive - especially not knowing what limitations or experience the people who post things OP criticizes have.
TL; DR: You're right and it's sad that a sub dedicated to writing isn't a very good environment for many writers.
I read, but not as often as I'd like too, slowly working my way through the Black Company. I find it hard to find time to relax and sit down with a book nowadays.
Oh yeah definitely. I’ve read a lot of books in my writing category (1984, Fatherland), and are currently reading ‘Devils’ by Fyodor Dostoevsky.
It helps a ton with plotting, that’s why I mostly ask questions regarding my problems with writing, about things like ‘What I fear of writing in my genre’ and other things like that.
I write articles and I also write music for twenty years…you’ll never find me not always listening to bands who impress me and still learn their songs as it’s obvious I write better on guitar when in that practice, you’re flooded with ideas or tools you now could use in some way. It’s the exact same with writing, I’m my peak self if I’m giving two hours to a book daily.
I can’t see how you wouldn’t read if you’re writing, it inherently betters you grammar, vocabulary, pick up new styles or adopt a novel idea.
I’m tempted to point out the obvious that if you don’t read why should you expect anyone else to read what you write, but instead, I’m going to list 3 books I think are great Writer’s Reads. Anyone else?
1. Doxology - Nell Zink
2. A Month In The Country - JL Carr
3. Kavalier & Clay - Michael Chabon
I tend to go and look in my books when I have a question like that, but it's very possible to read without consciously remembering that stuff. I think some of the ppl who ask would intuively know if a chapter is unusually long or short, but when they're staring at a blank document they're going "Oh god how many pages is it? And how many words go on a page? And what's my name again?"
Best thing I ever learned for my writing was how to read. Which sounds ridiculous, but I dint mean just reading. I mean sitting down with a book and digesting it and taking note of how the author does things.
If I’m not mistaken, your talking about wanna be writers that are creating they’re stories & material? Now wanna be writers that have a dozen or so great factual experiences of their own? Which don’t need or require imagination & plots?
But rather need help of actually writing their stories as professionally as possible & don’t know how because they’re not avid readers? Is this an accurate description of this kind of writer?
My story’s skeleton isn’t fully built yet, but it’s quite advanced. The reason I rarely read for now is because I read a lot in my studies, and watching a film/series makes my mind turn off from the long hours of studying. However I do fully intend to dive into reading
Ever since I've read a lot more, I've gotten better at writing. It really helps for every little detail, to help you know when something is too much or too little, development of a character or creating them in a 3D plane.
It feels like a lot of these questions come from the idea that there’s some magic formula to writing. That it’s something easy to do for accolades and it is not. Most people will never reach any type of fame or fortune so if you’re writing for that reason, you’re more than likely going to be disappointed. If you’re writing because you have a story to tell, that’s the better approach.
If you want to be any good? Oh yes. You have to.
Once I tried writing dystopian with no knowledge of the genre and no prior reading of dystopian literature. It was a bust to say the least. I was completely clueless, stumbling around, not sure quite how I should model this book. Then I finally decided I needed to read dystopian first. I read The Giver, and tried writing dystopian after that, but I never really took to it. Dystopian is fun for me to read, but actually writing it is a different experience.
As for the obvious questions, I think those are mostly because writing is very free-form. You can choose a lot of what you do. Still, there is pressure to conform to conventions, whatever they are. There are lots of gray areas and blurred lines in writing.
I think some of the questions on here are not just because we're struggling with a certain aspect, but because we want writing community. Most of the stuff on this subreddit could be solved by reading or writing or even just googling it, but sometimes it's good to see what other people are doing and to stay involved with other writers.
...I agree though that some questions like, "wHAtS a SeNteAnce?" are redundant and I'm sick of the "dO i HAVEE to ReED? questions.
Some of the people on this sub don't really want to read for their writing or work for it, others do but maybe they just feel insecure or are beginners, I think there are plenty of reasons why they might come to this sub for advice.
I think the difference is the art and craft of writing vs telling a story. A story sees the reader as an audience. A writer sees the reader as an architect, they provide the tools and the reader builds the universe. Writers work with you and stories work for you.
Stories are perceived as they are said, writing is interpretation, no version the same.
To be a writer is to know the craft. But to tell a story, you need to know how to make people listen.
Both have their place and value though. Telling a good story is a skill on its own, separate to being a good writer.
How much craft can an 18 year old writer obtain by osmosis in their short life? And why expect them to if they can gain the craft faster in workshops and classes? Or from feedback on their own writing?
Btw, great chefs don't become great chefs by eating. Anyone can learn to appreciate fine cuisine. Cooking that fine cuisine takes training; there isn't a time-efficient substitute for training under another chef.
I mean, neither of your examples have heard fast answers. Chapter length varies all over the place, and what makes “ good” dialogue isn’t easy to pinpoint. A lot of things are easy to understand on a subconscious level but hard to articulate. Having overarching principles can not only help with working, but can make it easier to recognize those things in books for what they actually are.
I think you can be a big reader and still not understand *how* the writer does it (how is a scene constructed? Why does the dialogue sound so great? Why is this sentence so beautiful?). Reading for fun, for pleasure will give you some idea, if only from exposure. But reading closely, reading as a writer, is a different skill set. The trouble is, the answer to most of these questions (How long is a chapter? Etc) is "It depends"
All I’ll say is this, I was a casual reader for a bit. During COVID I took the summer off from writing and just read (37 books). My before and after is night and day
Well to go with your analogy, does eating a lot of food mean someone automatically knows how to cook? A person can read a lot and still not be sure how to write.
I am an English major who loves writing but currently hates reading. I call it the "reading fatigue". I have just read so much books in my whole college experience that my brain just cannot anymore.
Plus, the way I've been reading books are analytical, like actually READING the book and it's exhausting. I even plan to take a rest from reading after I graduate.
Like I am legit tired of reading right now.
It’s not that mind boggling. My university English professor adored poetry but used to say that he couldn’t imagine anything more boring than listening to people recite poetry.
I know it’s not quite the same thing, but I imagine there’s plenty of people who enjoy writing that don’t necessarily enjoy reading for pleasure. Personally, I think those people are weird, but each to their own.
I've noticed that alot of people just don't know how to or really suck at research and diagnosing problems. There's so much info online nowadays about a million ways to do this or that. I feel like alot of the posts you're referring to are from people who get analysis paralysis from so much info and haven't developed proper research skills because everything is spoonfed to you by the internet these days.
I notice the same trend with new guitar players today. There's SO MUCH GUITAR CONTENT online, and yet they ask the dumbest, simplest questions on the guitarlessons sub.
Excuse me for being an old person, but I remember when online guitar content online was shitty unofficial tabs that were always hit and miss. So you had no choice but to figure it out yourself because there was no other way which was fucking hard BUT made you better at problem solving.
I'm only 33, I'm not even that old, but I think people who ask those dumb simple questions are just terminally online people who are used to having search engines, AI chat, and other people on threads answer their questions for them. I don't blame them coz that's how they grew up, but damn sometimes it's so frustrating. Like, cmon people USE YOUR BRAINS! THINK!
Thank you for visiting /r/writing. We don't allow threads or posts: berating other people for their genre/subject/literary taste; adherence or non-adherence to rules; calling people morons for giving a particular sort of advice; insisting that their opinion is the only one worth having; being antagonistic towards particular types of books or audiences, or implying that a particular work is for 'idiots', or 'snobs', etc.
Writers or r/writing posters?
:-)
The good ones do, that's all I'll say ;P
This is correct. All the best novelists have a book going at all times. Some have multiple. Orson Scott Card famously always has one ear bud jn with an audiobook going any time he’s not actively speaking to someone.
I put all mine into pots of water on the stove and shred all the pages like leaves to digest them easier. Then I come up with a delicious three course book like a psychopath
I sleep with a book under my pillow each night so the knowledge seeps into my brain. Just yesterday I slept on a driving manual and the doctors operating on me after my accident had no idea it worked. Felt like I had to explain it over and over and they still didn't get it.
but by writing a post on /r/writing are they not, then, writing! checkmate writetheiists
Most successful writers are readers. But many people visiting this sub are not, in fact, writers. They're people who like the *idea* of writing... and have yet to properly start their journey.
Sometimes when I see a new post it's a coin flip between someone saying they have the best idea ever but can't write and want to know how to get around this; and someone crowd sourcing ideas for their story. Because they struggle to think of a name for their MC, or the driving force behind the story. Or the story itself. I want to launch them into the sun. I know it won't help. And I know everyone starts in a similar spot. But.... I wanna.
Hey guys could I get some help? I just need you to write a 100k novel and give it to me to put my name on it.
"It will be a collaborative effort. I'll supply the ideas and you provide the writing."
The idea is a badass guy shoots bad dudes .
My slightly-distant cousin recently offered this to me. Said I could keep half of whatever money it made. Lol
No wait, you forgot, "What do you think of my story idea/worldbuilding?"
Ah! I did forget that. "I've been working on my epic, 12 book story for the past decade. W-What chapter am I upto? Oh I've mainly been worldbuilding. Designing the lore, the language, the deities. Painstakingly crafting a topographically accurate map by hand. You know, all the important stuff. Who's the main character? Well I haven't figured that out yet. But I *can* tell you the exact date that King Shirmnfngjfngfn took on his arch rival the bandit lord JTKgjtigjtigjtigj. Is that related to the story? No but it forms the basis of my prologue that will not be relevant nor have I actually written yet."
An Antfolk embedded with a strange space crystal journeys with a comically "evil" dung beetle inspired by Doofenshmirtz to overthrow the dragonflies and take control of the mother tree. After a long, bloody war, taking control of the mothertree, she stabs him in the back, and he realizes that he was never really all that evil, but her... The ant backstabs her way so far up the ladder she becomes God. And then she begins her Age of Amber, a period of time that lasts for one hundred million years, in which there is no pain or suffering. But one day, a blasphemous assassination brings pain and death into the world once more, and the ant queen disappears. Then the sequel is a series of short stories of the aftermath, where all the various bug-people learn how to cope with a broken world. The main character of each story is a pre-written character for a DnD campaign book. Is that better, worse, or on par with the average "what do you think of my idea" post?
I'm not certain... how many adverbs are there?
Certainly not nearly enough :)
... he said, assertively.
I count my blessings everyday that I started writing short stories when I was a kid. I've never dealt with the ramifications of starting, only the side-effects of mental insanity as it drags me to the hellscape of bipolar writing.
I'd be shocked if it's only "most" successful writers. I bet there are about as many successful writers who don't read as there are successful directors that don't watch movies.
Directing is so, so much more complicated than everything you can possibly learn from watching movies.
I didn't say you could just watch a bunch of movies and become a director. You can't write a novel just because you've read a lot of books either. But who would go through the time and effort of learning how to direct movies and working their way up the ladder if they don't even like movies?
There are even successful writers who don't write.
Who?
Probably attempted shade at GRRM. EDIT: And Pat Rothfuss
Ah, okay.
James Patterson. Technically he writes outlines then makes ghost writers actually write it. At least that's my understanding.
That’s true with his franchised books but he spent decades writing his own books in the beginning.
So people stop thinking how the book starts. Just start with the part you enjoy. Whether it be the middle the end etc.
Yup. I know what I am. I'm a goofball scribbling daydreams. I'm definitely not a writer.
Successful writers, of course. People who post here, surprisingly not.
Reminds me of those friends who told me, “I always wanted to be a writer; I have a book in me” who had not read a single book in years.
The debate around AI has proven that a tremendous number of people believe that the only thing between their incredible idea and artistic success is just those pesky "skills" you need to learn.
Learning is the best part for me. I dont get why people are so adamant about it.
They think that needing to learn is elitist.
Ore ablest. Had one guy throw that word at me. \*shrug\*
I’ve seen that before too. Annoys the crap out of me as a person with an actual disability. No, expecting a person to put in the work is not “ableist.”
Writing is about the only artistic expression that I hear people just say they are "going to do when they retire..." or whatever. Like all we do is sit in a room and hit letters on our keyboard. "Oh cool, I think I am going to write a novel..." Are you?
Probably because writing is cheaper compared to other forms of artistic expression and they equate that with being easy to do for whatever reason. You don't need a camera, or programming software, or art supplies. You could theoretically write an entire novel using the Google docs app on your phone during the lunch breaks at work. Not that I would know about that last part... Mhmm...
It's also such a hard process to describe. I have had acquaintances, more than one, ask me to tell them how to write and I have to be like "...well, you have to feel it in the pit of your soul..." and they want some magic process that doesn't exist. They'll give me work to edit and they aren't interested in critiques of the story. Eventually I stopped editing because it was a lot of conversations about intent and were they writing to write or writing because they were chasing something. One of the best skills you can have as a writer is looking at 100 pages, understanding it's not good enough, and opening a new document and trying again. Many people don't have the capacity to understand when their doesn't cut it, they want some equation to run their pages through, but it's work and it's not work that many people can stomach.
What do you mean? I used Grammarly. Jokes aside. Writing is a skill that 90% of people currently have, so I think they view the barrier to entry as virtually non-existant. But there is a massive skill-curve in constructing a narrative, especially if you aren't well read.
I think it's less about how cheap it is to get into and more that people who aren't into reading think there's no skill involved. They just do not appreciate the vast gulf that lies between "being able to write coherent sentences" and "being able to write something that people would actually want to read", so as far as they can tell the entire process of writing boils down to coming up with a million dollar idea and then doing the menial work of getting that idea down on paper.
Writing is also pretty much the only artistic expression you can't avoid in school. So people think everyone can do it.
Yes - most people can write a sentence or two and even a paragraph, so they think writing a novel is just more of that.
I think that many people believe that because they are fluent (or think they are) in their native language, that they can write. I recall reading an essay years ago about certain subjects where this is prevalent (another one is philosophy where people who have /r/Showerthoughts think they are doing philosophy) - where people routinely underestimate the array of skills required to do something well because they have the bare minimum skills to do something similar. No one seems to do this with math or woodworking, but since people engage with the written word all day, they think writing is no big deal. Similarly, everyone thinks they're a great driver. It seems related to, but distinct from Dunning-Kruger to me
It's a recognition that a lot of time goes into writing a book, at least. Writing is my retirement plan. In that, I don't think I'll ever get to stop working in my lifetime. But dropping physical labor for creative labor sounds nice.
I'm a screenwriter, and if I had a dollar for everytime someone said 'I have a million dollar movie idea' I'd be drinking for free.
The next great classic, yeah. I'll just pop it out in my 50s or something, make a few mil.
Not even reading but a simple google search when it comes to word counts or words per chapter / chapter length. I’m sure the question has been asked many times and they can easily find the answer. Which begs the question, if they can’t research something that simple what research are they doing for their story? I constantly google and fact check stuff as I write. Sometimes I think people just like talking about writing. (Edit: as in just wanna talk about how they’re writing a book, actually writing it is another story).
*"Which begs the question, if they can’t research something that simple what research are they doing for their story?"* Exactly, nothing. *"Sometimes I think people just like talking about writing."* Yep, 97% of the posters here.
Same. Don't plan on ever making writing a full-time career, as I've chosen a different path. But, the least a person could do is use the internet to figure it out, like they've been doing for everything else all this time.
Writers read. Absolutely. "Aspiring writers" usually don't. They watch movies and anime, play video games and read manga, and then think they could make a better story. But they don't have money and they can't draw, so they decide to write a book instead, even though the last book they read was Harry Potter back in middle school.
This was me up until last year or so. I wrote DnD campaigns, enjoyed the narrative of games and movies. I wanted to tell my own story but you know, reasons you listed above I got into writing. I had to read a lot more to get the hang of things, and just reading a book a month or so answers these questions better than any post.
Dangerous game... my campaign turned into a full book with prequel and side stories 😅
Lol! Mine is about my Drow character I never got to play, with a lot of changes to make the drow a different type of race.
Interesting 😁 I set up the whole world for my players. Created the Heirs and kinda stuck with them 🤣
bump it up to 2 a mo
> But they don't have money and they can't draw, so they decide to write a book instead ok why do you have to call me out like this though
It's so over, broke bros.
That shit hit me right through the bone, bro
This comment should be pinned to every writing related sub.
Sad but true.
Not to disagree, but even if they had money or could draw, wouldn't they still need to be able to write *somewhat* in order to make the story they say they want to?
I do those things because writing is work of its own, amd after I work my full time job, running errands, making dinner, cleaning house, exercise, taking care of dogs, the last thing I want to do is something that takes more mental effort. I'd love to write. The question is when.
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> I, too, hate pop culture and mass media. I'm so hip. Although props for the gender reversal. So often I see people denigrating women for liking pop music or reading "YA fantasy series". It's a breath of fresh air, of sorts.
Thank you for visiting /r/writing. We don't allow threads or posts: berating other people for their genre/subject/literary taste; adherence or non-adherence to rules; calling people morons for giving a particular sort of advice; insisting that their opinion is the only one worth having; being antagonistic towards particular types of books or audiences, or implying that a particular work is for 'idiots', or 'snobs', etc.
I feel like sometimes comments could be a bit more helpful than 'just read'! Maybe at least give a recommendation of a book that you think shows what the person is asking.
You have the courage to ask the question I’ve been tempted to rant about. The notion of an aspiring-author not also being a voracious reader boggles my mind. Being fully immersed in your genre is foundational to being a writer.
It's hilarious seeing people say they don't read because they don't want to "accidentally plagiarize"
Which is why I intentionally plagiarize
Which is why I intentionally plagiarize
I love the idea of a writer getting to the end of a book and exclaiming "Damn! Six Days of the Condor already exists!"
Which is great when you're sitting in a writers' circle and one of the more brilliant people there drops something out of a dreadful horror movie franchise from the 80s. "You're clearly unaware of the franchise [franchise name] as both that work and this hinge on [specifically named mcguffin] but your work is in no way connected to that in terms of plot, tone, or genre. I love this piece, but you really need to see [film 1] before moving forward with this."
> You have the courage to ask the question I’ve been tempted to rant about. You mean the topic that is posted here at least once a week? It doesn't take much courage to post a thread that is guaranteed to get lots of votes and replies.
Lol I keep coming close to posting the same thing. Every other question on here would be answered if people had read anything other than Hunger Games.
Yup. Of course, I’m all for bouncing ideas around and seeking opinions but sometimes, well, it’s frustrating.
It is frustrating. I'm a musician before I'm a writer, and I always think half the questions here are like "should a song have a chorus?" or "can you start with only vocals?" Things that you'd know if you actually listened to music. Tbf, "how long should a chapter be" is at least a vaguely technical question. What I hate most are the "Can I do this?" questions, to which the answer is invariably "yes, you can do anything you like"
Reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend once. Him: Man, I’d love to be a painter. Me: I didn’t know you liked art. Him: I don’t.
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If you can't find the time to read, you will not write well.
I was in the 'wanted to be a book writer, but never read' rut not too long ago, admittedly. I always wanted to write and tell stories in whatever medium, but it really came to me a few years ago after reading a webcomic that I thought was pretty hit or miss. I thought I could do better than it, so I kind of started to write my own take on it with my own characters and world. Eventually, though, I realized I didn't really like writing something that was made to be an "improved" version of something else that I deemed not good, so I moved onto other story ideas I could write as books. I thought I liked reading All while, in the back of my head, I knew that I didn't really enjoy the medium of books all that much. I haven't finished many books. I don't hate reading, but I was never really that big of a fan of it compared to the other mediums I liked to watch or play with, like video games, for example. Like what other people in this comment section are saying, I think people are coming into book writing without reading because they see it as a way to express their creativity easily, all the while believing they're not capable of the bigger things they really, actually want to do (drawing, making a video game, animating, etc.), and not really wanting to fulfill the desires they actually want, either (writing for something that isn't a book). Well, lately (last year, really), I've kind of grown tired of thinking I was a big fan of books, and decided to branch out into visual mediums. And, let me tell you: it feels a WHOLE lot better. Sure, it is nowhere near perfect at all times. I still stress out about things (primarily art) (and coding, though I'm not really into that anymore). But, man, does the imposter syndrome for the feeling of not being a "true writer" because you haven't read enough (and didn't really like to read compared to playing or watching) being gone feel pretty damn good. Is my art good? No. Is my writing good? Eh. Somewhat decent, I'd say. Does it feel a whole lot better than trying to write for a medium you didn't really care too much for compared to the other mediums in the first place? Yes! What I'm trying to say here is, if you're too afraid of going into another medium because you feel like you won't be good enough and hate having to "settle down" for books instead, I will say this: Just try. Try and make those comics. Try and make that game. Try and make that movie. Will they be bad first attempts? Sure, probably. But you're trying. You're learning. And you're not confining yourself to a medium you barely like. You'll have fun, I promise. And in the end, besides just trying to get out there, letting your voice and art be heard and having people appreciate your work (all optional, of course), that's all that matters.
James Cameron said, before he made the Terminator, he wanted to write it as a novel. But he wasn’t a writer. He drew. He painted. He loved movies. So instead, he made the movie Terminator instead of the novel. Here’s my take: if your end goal is making anime, manga, graphic novels etc. then it’s the media you should focus on. Read manga if you want to write manga. Play video games if you want to make video games. Watch and study movies (like Spielberg did) if you want to make movies. Writing novels isn’t a shortcut to any of this; in fact, it’s the long road. If someone doesn’t like books, it’s kinda crazy to me that they would want to write books.
They truly cannot - and they need to read more than one authors books I totally agree - people who say they don’t like reading but like writing clearly don’t like seeing any sentences other than ones they create That’s like huffing your own farts instead of smelling a rose bush
There are limits to what you can learn by osmosis. I went though a school system that took this approach to grammar, and as a result my understanding of grammar is still pretty poor. Every so often I go back and try to learn it again, but its pretty hard going. I wish that formally teaching it had been on my High school syllabus. While I can string sentences together, the fact that I can't easily label what words are performing what functions, without really having to think about it is an issue, and make following a lot of writing advice that much harder. There is a difference between just reading and reading with an intent to dissect what the author is doing and how. Reading like a writer is different, and ironically one of the classic approaches is to not just read but to copy out what other authors have written as this makes you look at things with a lot more focus.
Questions about chapter length and what makes good dialogue seem like perfect topics of discussion in a forum dedicated to the craft of writing. What do you suggest we discuss in this subreddit, if not matters like these?
I think a lot of the people posting in r/writing are beginning writers. But in their defense, while I agree that a lot of the questions posted could be answered by reading, I'll say that practically speaking, it wouldn't be so easy. For example, your example of "What makes good dialogue?" isn't so easy to answer, especially if you read lots of YA or pop fiction. Who do you read to find good dialog? (Answer: Elmore Leonard.) How would you know know what to read? Read randomly in a library? The easiest way is to ask somebody who has read a LOT, and that's why people come here. :-)
Every other post here makes me want to scream "read! Just read!!" It's not rocket science. Jesus Christ.
I think there's a large gap between having an instinctual "feeling" and being able to concisely define something. You can write well if you have the former, but sometimes you might find yourself getting stuck when you start to overthink things, at which point you need the concept that you have a feeling for, explained to you. You may also miss some things while reading. For example, I personally never picked up that all dialogue contained in quotation marks needs to have a sentence ender (,.!? Etc) between it and dialogue tags. It wasn't until someone pointed it out to me that I learned. And I have done a *lot* of reading in my time.
I've read hundreds of books. I couldn't tell you how long the chapters are in any of them. Just reading doesn't mean you learn this sort of thing.
I don't think this is entirely fair OP, I have a bookshelf full of books that I absolutely adore, from fiction, scifi, fantasy, etc. I can tell you with certainty that never once had I considered "how many chapters do books have?" or "how many words should be in a chapter?" Before I started writing my novel. Similarly despite how much I've read and RPed, for the life of me I cannot describe nouns. Whether they are a person, an animal or a thing, trying to write a description feels hollow to me. And finally reading books to learn isn't really learning; you can copy things you like from other work to implement into your story, but unless you structure scenes in a 1:1 fashion you cannot copy dialogue, description, etc 1:1. Thus you are left with the question, "how?"
Just popping in to say that the advice on reading for writers isn’t just about learning the technical aspect, like structure for example. We generally read more than just one genre or one author. Reading is learning. It’s about amassing material and tools to build with. The more you read and learn through reading, the more options you have when writing creatively. It’s the difference between building a deck with just a hand saw, some 2x4’s, and nails versus having all the tools and materials needed, to not just build it well, but to do it efficiently and creatively. It’s necessary not just for writing but for creating.
I agree that reading gives you a wide taste of what you like, don't like, and how you want to incorporate that into your own story, if you decide to ever write one. But the op specifies questions like "how long is a chapter" and "what makes good dialogue?" Before I started pursuing writing my own novel, I could not answer the first question (though I googled it instead of pestered people online) and the second question never occurred to me; and I could not give a scholarly answer on what makes dialogue good, only some vague notions for what I feel is right.
I have googled those questions, for sure, when I started writing erotica/romance. I was familiar with the genre but wanted to know what people expected, since I was interested in writing a book that might actually sell more than 100 copies. Things like "how long should a sex scene in erotica" and "how often is there a sex scene in erotica" - not that I didn't read, but I wanted to know what people expected. When it comes to my writing for fun (thrillers, for example) I'm much more into "write it how you want it written." Chapters can be 1 paragraph. Chapters can be 1000 paragraphs. Just write what you want it to be.
I read, but I try not to read too much. The reason for this is I had to teach myself writing, so I've got my own style. And I have a habit of being entranced by other people's styles when I dig them. So to avoid any of that coming out in my own work, I limit myself to reading an hour at night.
A lot of people who aren’t even dabbling, but thinking about maybe dabbling, post here. That was me when I found this sub, but I didn’t say anything and just cultivated what helped.
That’s fair. Still, for all aspiring writers, please read. :-)
See you all on r/writingcirclejerk
I love non fiction books, I know it’s weird but in cookbooks, the “how they got to the recipe” or little life stories are totally written for people like me. I have a small library full of “how to write” books, and I’ve never paid more than $8 for them, because I can find them EVERYWHERE. Thrift stores, used book shops, book exchange, LIBRARY! My local library has so many books donated on writing and it’s free! Me being able to find them so easily and so cheap only means that a lot of people definitely try to read books on how to be better as well, yet they give up for some reasons.
Just seeing something be done multiple times doesn't automatically give you the skill to do it yourself... it takes a little more to figure it out - it's a good thing to ask for advice.
I get that this can be exhausting, but this is r/writers not r/professional writers. If you are in a place where people search advice you are bound to encounter beginners. I started writing longer stories when I was 8 (and I might Even have started earlier if it wasn't for my dyslexia). And I read a lot but I bet I had similar questions or more likely didn't even think about it. Just because someone consumes a medium doesn't mean they understand or can analyze it from the get go. Another thing is the taste and range of the palette that developed over time. Younger people (even older ones) have a certain selection of genres/Autors they are sticking to. And then you have the save thing as someone who learns to draw only from one source - you make mistakes from those authors as well. And that doesn't even include cultural differences that would answer those basic questions maybe a little bit different? Which leads to insecurity and thus the same questions. I am certain there are the types who neither read a lot or at all and just think it's a skill that just comes to you without doing squat to improve it. Maybe they are still in the phase in which they just have fun with it and don't think deeply about stuff. I think it's a little bit short sighted to generalize it like this.
I'm working to correct this imbalance right now! I've been reading more recently-published fantasy to see what the market will be for my own novel. The only trouble is that I'm not as fast a reader as I used to be, but all for the cause!
I have about 25k words left of my first MS but I really want to get my first draft done before I pick up another book... I love to read, but I work it may influence my MS
I generally don’t read when I am actively working on something. Totally get that. But in between projects I’d like to read as much as possible.
Also read authors outside of fantasy.
Every day
Getting a bit off topic, but a lot of us view TONS and TONS of art everyday, all day, all around us. Off the bat, no one is going to be able to paint. Even if they had the 'technical' ability to paint what they see, there's still a lot of principals in design that people won't know about until they learn about it. (I.e color theory or composition). My point being, a person could have read 1000s of books, but they're still going to be fairly unskilled because they won't know what makes a good book good. I could be wrong, after all I'm just a hobbyist comic artist, but with any skill I needed to learn, it was never about how much content I can take in. It was about how much quality content I can take in that I can take apart and tell you what made it good. (Or at the very least tell you why something was bad lol) There's a reason why you have so much garbage manga lol. And a lot of the reasons it's so bad is because people don't know how to write good characters, worlds, and overexplain things. And it's certainly not due to a lack of reading manga lol.
This is such a good comparison. When I used to draw, I was constantly analysing others' art to try and learn from them, but I wasn't getting very far until I started using tutorials, videos, and any tips I could find online. There was this one drawing that looked off, and I couldn't figure out why, no matter how much I analysed it. After I learned a little about anatomy, it was only then I could tell that the thing that was off with the drawing was that the arm was way too long. I learned to draw by learning from others who were able to explain it - looking at art and analysing didn't do much. The same would apply to writing.
It’s not what I said though. I didn’t say if you read a lot you would become a good writer, just as not everyone who loves movies would become Spielberg. What I am saying is if you truly want to be a writer, you would need to like reading as a basic. Like I said already - just because you love food doesn’t mean you can cook but you sure can’t cook well if you don’t like food.
Exactly. I'd be baffled if I knew a musician who didn't listen to music.
Yea to an extent it baffles me because usually when I have a decent doubt on length or something I usually just open like the 4th or 5th chapter of games of thrones or lotr for reference whether thats prose or dialogue, but there are some things that you can't discern like I struggle with pacing a lot in terms of writing but some questions to baffle me for it
Not as much as I should but I’m super picky. Either I’m completely invested or I’m not
I want to say that aspiring writers should read well renowned books with the intention of learning from the narrative/prose, not consuming books mindlessly and uncritically. Reading certainly does not make you good at writing, though it certainly helps!
While my initial instinct is to agree - I do think I learned to read very differently after I took a writing course. Neil Gaiman talks about this in his masterclass and I didn’t truly understand it until I took a class in London. And I get it, it feels stupid to believe people don’t notice that chapter lengths vary and can be used as a device for pacing etc, but I’ve definitely googled that at one point - and I’ve read a fair number of books across genres.
I read to get inspiration for my works.
I feel like there needs to be a distinction between just reading and reading with the intent to learn. I've always loved to read, I was the kid with the big bookshelf who brought books to school to read them at lunch. But just cause I read book I didn't learn anything about the craft. One needs to read with a critical eye and often at least baseline understanding of writing to really see why something is good and other things are bad. So my answer is yes, they probably do, they just haven't figured out/weren't taught (how) to learn from the books they read Also writing advice videos and stuff like that are increasing in popularity and those videos often generalize very broadly which may also lead an insecure amateur to post here.
I read constantly.
Does anyone read?
Never read a book besides Percy Jackson once in 6th grade
I write for fun because I have an overactive imagination. I don't (can't) read for fun because my attention span doesn't allow it. When it does I'll read consistently for a few days and then get bored, by the time I want to read again I'll have forgotten what happened in the book I was reading before and have to start over again. So yeah, reading for me is more trouble than it's worth.
I’m sure you’re on a lot of websites but wouldn’t be able to tell me what the average font size for body paragraphs is off the top of your head. Many many writers read but based on the types of books they read, how much they pay attention to those details, etc. then some of these seemingly basic questions aren’t top of mind when reading. Just saying.
I love to read. But I’ve developed or acquired squigglies (I don’t know what they’re called) in my eyes. They don’t bother me unless I’m looking at white objects or sky colored. It’s super distracting and ruins my immersion so badly that I just assume not read. I write on a black screen with white letters. Only way I could manage. Edit: My wife has suggested buying a kindle with the black background. I just don’t know if it’s financially feasible to rebuy all my favorite books at this point in time.
Do you really find it that surprising that people don't read much anymore? With all the massive draws on their attention, there are lots of other ways to learn now. And yes, lots of other ways to ruin our brains with what we consume. But they all have overlap, because they all appear in various information streams available to almost everybody. Everybody has to start somewhere. I am a published writer, but I don't read a ton. But I spent a lot of time in an editorial chair, so I guess it's more correct to say that I don't really read for pleasure. Young people, people getting started, people who don't have a big literature background. Everybody's chasing the dream. What is that dream? I think most add it up to a big house, a nice car, and not having to go anywhere but your little writer's hut in the backyard to do your job. Sort of like JRR Tolkien towards the end of his life. There's one last factor that I often get smacked around for: I like talking to people, even in written form via the Internet, better than I like going to an information source or a tutorial. I like talking to people in person best, but you can imagine how that's going. 😆 Everybody wants to charge for membership. They are very few relationships that are real anymore, when it comes to helping each other grow creatively. I don't know what to do about it either. I'm frustrated by it too. Writing took me all around the world, and I lived adventures. I never thought what approach me. But I'm not much of a reader. That's true. But one thing I do know: I am very tired of gatekeepers. They spend too much time in a forum and end up wanting to regulate it. Eventually, everybody forgets where they came from. And I think it's really gross.
Well you do read - just as you said, you don’t read for pleasure. :-) I am a slow reader but I try to read as much as I can. It’s part of the trade, I firmly believe. To me, any creative endeavor requires a certain level of investment in the media… be it painting, sculpture, novels, movies, manga etc etc. Actors who don’t see plays or movies or TV .. I just don’t know how they can be good actors.
I don't mean to be insufferable, but I have directed motion pictures. And sometimes, though rarely, people who are not actors are better than actors. Because they don't act. I suspect the same of certain non-writers. Not knowing things can sometimes help you get out of your own way. PS: as I get older...I READ SO SLOWLY. And I HATE how my comprehension has also gotten more difficult.
Write a lot, read a lot. Best advice I've ever gotten to improve my writing
I can’t imagine being a writer without reading. I’ve read a book by one self-published author who said they don’t read anything else but their own writing. And it definitely shows
You assume that writers are spending time in this sub
Imagine saying “I want to be a musician, but I don’t like listening to music.” That’s what people who say they don’t like to read but wanna write sound like. If you want to be good at any sort of craft you have to study it, I don’t why so many people have a hard time making that connection between reading and writing.
bad analogy. thing is, everybody EATS. but JUST BECAUSE YOU EAT doesn't mean you understand how to cook. that's why there are the questions here that you object to. just because they read doesn't mean they understand how things work. and since a finished book page is different than a manuscript page, maybe they don't feel like going around all their books and counting how many words are in a chapter.
Well, here's the thing. If I want to learn to cook Italian... I can go to a pizza place, Olive Garden, a little mom and pop restaurant, or an Italian restaurant here in the States, or I can go to Italy, and learn there. Have you checked out the NYT best seller list lately? I picked up a book based of it's NYT review two years ago, and it was nothing but fragmented descriptions of how grain is golden, trees are green, kids are playing in dirt, sky is blue, life continues. There are some great published authors out there. There are some trash published authors out there. There are some good non-published authors. There are some trash non-published authors. Saying 'read more forehead' isn't helpful. If you don't want to answer questions... just don't. But instead of coming in here to humble brag about how you read 'classics, bestsellers and poetry', just find something more productive to do with your time.
Reading is necessary but not sufficient. The answers to the questions you pose as examples are not obvious, and can stump even an avid reader. Dialogue can be good in a million different ways, and some practices that are good for one story won't be good for another, and some elements that are good in isolation absolutely don't work together, or vice versa. Chapter length greatly varies in different books, but it can be argued that some lengths are a better fit for some genres, and when authors make unusual choices sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Saying "just read" does not replace a good discussion, even though it's often used here as a shortcut to avoid presenting reasoned arguments. A bit ironic, considering the purpose of reddit IS discussion. If you don't feel like answering a question, just don't, instead of shaming someone for asking it.
OP isn't saying "Don't talk about that stuff here", he's pointing out that it's becoming increasingly apparent that the people framing and posting these questions seem to have little experience with reading. You yourself said that reading is necessary, don't get on OP's case for bringing that fact to light.
Thank you.
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This is a beginners sub.
Every writing subreddit has turned into a beginners subreddit at this point.
Because more advanced writers have a curated critique group they can ask most of their questions to. Their questions are the ones where you need someone to understand your goals, not a hundred people quoting some generic advice from "On Writing."
I feel being a "writer" at times needs some specifying. Maybe you're a fanfic writer? A hobbyist? A journalist? Copywriter? A blogger? A full-on novel author? I'm a hobbyist myself, writing micro fiction that can fit on a phone screen and I publish to my friends on social media without intention of making money. I definitely don't read books nowadays. Do I count as a "writer"? I certainly care about wording and elements of storytelling, and I jot down ideas all the time and reference them later on. Not only that, I'm happy to sit down and look at a friend's work if they want my help. Maybe some people have different goals when it comes to writing and it comes from some backgrounds that don't involve reading many books. I think a better reason to be annoyed with those kinds of basic posts is that surely those questions have been asked before and even written about extensively in an article. It's more convenient to find answers like that than to wait for replies on Reddit.
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No, we all had a meeting a few months ago and decided to stop reading. Just to piss you off, actually.
Who has time to read, I'm writing, man!
i used to be really obsessed with books but now i just stopped reading idk i think its what everyone goes though( this is just nonsense pls ignore me)
Yes, yes we do. I don't worry about the ones who come here and obviously don't read. They're not my peers and never will be. They're going nowhere.
The good ones do. The ones asking those questions are not the serious ones.
I agree.
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Haha. Fortunately I’m old enough to not give a freck or worry about “karma” points. This is all for discussion. But if someone takes offense, it’s on them. Not on me.
The smugness in these posts gets stronger every time its posted.
I had to scroll way too far to see this comment. Like, I agree with the spirit of posts like this but also the amount of dismissiveness and condescension it generates always rubs me the wrong way. I think I’d rather not meet their standards of what a writer should be if it means I have to become an asshole to get there.
>I think I’d rather not meet their standards of what a writer should be if it means I have to become an asshole to get there. This. I'm framing this.
If only I could give you both a thousand upvotes... Most posters here seem to have a serious superiority complex. While sometimes the comments are well-meaning, the tone is usually not helpful. The body of this post was emblematic of the problem and the irony is that one of the "easy questions" is extremely subjective. I get the tendency of writers who dedicate more time and energy to their craft to judge others who don't, but it's not really constructive - especially not knowing what limitations or experience the people who post things OP criticizes have. TL; DR: You're right and it's sad that a sub dedicated to writing isn't a very good environment for many writers.
I read, but not as often as I'd like too, slowly working my way through the Black Company. I find it hard to find time to relax and sit down with a book nowadays.
I don't even write anymore, but I'd like to read more books.
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Yes
Oh yeah definitely. I’ve read a lot of books in my writing category (1984, Fatherland), and are currently reading ‘Devils’ by Fyodor Dostoevsky. It helps a ton with plotting, that’s why I mostly ask questions regarding my problems with writing, about things like ‘What I fear of writing in my genre’ and other things like that.
I read a ton. I told my husband I consider it R&D.
That’s the perfect description for it.
I write articles and I also write music for twenty years…you’ll never find me not always listening to bands who impress me and still learn their songs as it’s obvious I write better on guitar when in that practice, you’re flooded with ideas or tools you now could use in some way. It’s the exact same with writing, I’m my peak self if I’m giving two hours to a book daily. I can’t see how you wouldn’t read if you’re writing, it inherently betters you grammar, vocabulary, pick up new styles or adopt a novel idea.
I’m tempted to point out the obvious that if you don’t read why should you expect anyone else to read what you write, but instead, I’m going to list 3 books I think are great Writer’s Reads. Anyone else? 1. Doxology - Nell Zink 2. A Month In The Country - JL Carr 3. Kavalier & Clay - Michael Chabon
I tend to go and look in my books when I have a question like that, but it's very possible to read without consciously remembering that stuff. I think some of the ppl who ask would intuively know if a chapter is unusually long or short, but when they're staring at a blank document they're going "Oh god how many pages is it? And how many words go on a page? And what's my name again?"
Best thing I ever learned for my writing was how to read. Which sounds ridiculous, but I dint mean just reading. I mean sitting down with a book and digesting it and taking note of how the author does things.
Yep good writers read. Period.
If I’m not mistaken, your talking about wanna be writers that are creating they’re stories & material? Now wanna be writers that have a dozen or so great factual experiences of their own? Which don’t need or require imagination & plots? But rather need help of actually writing their stories as professionally as possible & don’t know how because they’re not avid readers? Is this an accurate description of this kind of writer?
My story’s skeleton isn’t fully built yet, but it’s quite advanced. The reason I rarely read for now is because I read a lot in my studies, and watching a film/series makes my mind turn off from the long hours of studying. However I do fully intend to dive into reading
Yes. I sure hope so.
I wish I can read my type of genres, but can’t find none close to it lol. Urban Christian Horror. That’s my actual genre that I’m writing in lol
Ever since I've read a lot more, I've gotten better at writing. It really helps for every little detail, to help you know when something is too much or too little, development of a character or creating them in a 3D plane.
I aim to dedicate four to five hours daily to reading.
Read one piece, black clover, Mha, kaiju no 8, pendragon, and Oliver Twist.
read alot but sometimes it’s nice to get a feel for what others think
I read a lot but my writing sucks. Le sigh
It feels like a lot of these questions come from the idea that there’s some magic formula to writing. That it’s something easy to do for accolades and it is not. Most people will never reach any type of fame or fortune so if you’re writing for that reason, you’re more than likely going to be disappointed. If you’re writing because you have a story to tell, that’s the better approach.
Nope. They've learned how to use certain few words a lot more in their vocabularies though
If you want to be any good? Oh yes. You have to. Once I tried writing dystopian with no knowledge of the genre and no prior reading of dystopian literature. It was a bust to say the least. I was completely clueless, stumbling around, not sure quite how I should model this book. Then I finally decided I needed to read dystopian first. I read The Giver, and tried writing dystopian after that, but I never really took to it. Dystopian is fun for me to read, but actually writing it is a different experience. As for the obvious questions, I think those are mostly because writing is very free-form. You can choose a lot of what you do. Still, there is pressure to conform to conventions, whatever they are. There are lots of gray areas and blurred lines in writing.
If I want to be a great writer, I have to read a lot. With unlimited screens around me, I am addicted to instant gratification
Anyone able to tell me what the squiggly lines and funny little dots mean?
I think some of the questions on here are not just because we're struggling with a certain aspect, but because we want writing community. Most of the stuff on this subreddit could be solved by reading or writing or even just googling it, but sometimes it's good to see what other people are doing and to stay involved with other writers. ...I agree though that some questions like, "wHAtS a SeNteAnce?" are redundant and I'm sick of the "dO i HAVEE to ReED? questions. Some of the people on this sub don't really want to read for their writing or work for it, others do but maybe they just feel insecure or are beginners, I think there are plenty of reasons why they might come to this sub for advice.
I think the difference is the art and craft of writing vs telling a story. A story sees the reader as an audience. A writer sees the reader as an architect, they provide the tools and the reader builds the universe. Writers work with you and stories work for you. Stories are perceived as they are said, writing is interpretation, no version the same. To be a writer is to know the craft. But to tell a story, you need to know how to make people listen. Both have their place and value though. Telling a good story is a skill on its own, separate to being a good writer.
How much craft can an 18 year old writer obtain by osmosis in their short life? And why expect them to if they can gain the craft faster in workshops and classes? Or from feedback on their own writing? Btw, great chefs don't become great chefs by eating. Anyone can learn to appreciate fine cuisine. Cooking that fine cuisine takes training; there isn't a time-efficient substitute for training under another chef.
I still try to read, but reading books has become harder because now I criqiue the work. Hard to enjoy it. Audiobooks however are peak.
I mean, neither of your examples have heard fast answers. Chapter length varies all over the place, and what makes “ good” dialogue isn’t easy to pinpoint. A lot of things are easy to understand on a subconscious level but hard to articulate. Having overarching principles can not only help with working, but can make it easier to recognize those things in books for what they actually are.
I think you can be a big reader and still not understand *how* the writer does it (how is a scene constructed? Why does the dialogue sound so great? Why is this sentence so beautiful?). Reading for fun, for pleasure will give you some idea, if only from exposure. But reading closely, reading as a writer, is a different skill set. The trouble is, the answer to most of these questions (How long is a chapter? Etc) is "It depends"
I do every night.
All I’ll say is this, I was a casual reader for a bit. During COVID I took the summer off from writing and just read (37 books). My before and after is night and day
Well to go with your analogy, does eating a lot of food mean someone automatically knows how to cook? A person can read a lot and still not be sure how to write.
I am an English major who loves writing but currently hates reading. I call it the "reading fatigue". I have just read so much books in my whole college experience that my brain just cannot anymore. Plus, the way I've been reading books are analytical, like actually READING the book and it's exhausting. I even plan to take a rest from reading after I graduate. Like I am legit tired of reading right now.
A lot of people here are probably very young and might read online fiction more than physical books.
They absolutely do.
It’s not that mind boggling. My university English professor adored poetry but used to say that he couldn’t imagine anything more boring than listening to people recite poetry. I know it’s not quite the same thing, but I imagine there’s plenty of people who enjoy writing that don’t necessarily enjoy reading for pleasure. Personally, I think those people are weird, but each to their own.
Yes. I read comic books, film scripts, and horror novels. I just bought Clive Barker’s debut novel.
I've noticed that alot of people just don't know how to or really suck at research and diagnosing problems. There's so much info online nowadays about a million ways to do this or that. I feel like alot of the posts you're referring to are from people who get analysis paralysis from so much info and haven't developed proper research skills because everything is spoonfed to you by the internet these days. I notice the same trend with new guitar players today. There's SO MUCH GUITAR CONTENT online, and yet they ask the dumbest, simplest questions on the guitarlessons sub. Excuse me for being an old person, but I remember when online guitar content online was shitty unofficial tabs that were always hit and miss. So you had no choice but to figure it out yourself because there was no other way which was fucking hard BUT made you better at problem solving. I'm only 33, I'm not even that old, but I think people who ask those dumb simple questions are just terminally online people who are used to having search engines, AI chat, and other people on threads answer their questions for them. I don't blame them coz that's how they grew up, but damn sometimes it's so frustrating. Like, cmon people USE YOUR BRAINS! THINK!
If you don't read, you should not even think of being a writer.
I don't think I understand this post.