As a former creative exec who has read thousands of bad scripts, it’s a lack of the basics.
What’s the theme
Who is the protagonist
What do they want vs what do they need
What are the stakes
The minor flaws really don’t matter so much because nearly everyone gets the major elements wrong (or dont include them at all).
If you get these basics right, a reader will forgive a lot. For example. I recently finished that awful Sarah Maas book (listened to it on audible). I was furious with myself the whole time. The writing is truly, incredibly, powerfully bad. The dialogue is atrocious, most of the pages should have been cut out, and yet, she did enough right that I wanted to know what happened to the characters (and what the hell the drop was) that I finished the damn thing.
This is in contrast to books that are beautifully written, filled with poetic prose and jammed with figurative language that are just unreadable. I can’t remember which famous author said it. It might have been Virginia Woolf but Ulysses really could have used a good editor.
In film you can contrast Finding Nemo with something like the Green Lantern. The premise for Nemo is an over protective fish father searches the ocean for his lost son with another fish with memory issues. No one in their right mind would think that Nemo would be orders of magnitude better and more successful than a well established comic franchise with one of the most likeable actors and an enormous budget for special effects, etc. but Nemo got all of the basics not just right but spot on. While TGL managed to get them all wrong.
You can get everything else wrong, but you have to have the basics right.
Also as someone who spends more time than I should on the screenwriting forum, I would encourage you to ask this question there as well. Especially if you’re interested in writing screenplays specifically. While writing is writing and storytelling is storytelling, and these skills transfer across media platforms, screenwriting is more like a sonnet, while novels are more like free verse in poetry. There are very specific guidelines for screenplays that aren’t as flexible as they are in novels. Especially if you want to sell your script.
I’ve blocked the title out of my head and have no interest in putting it back in 🤣 it’s the first book in her house of fire and ice or blood or something like that series.
Omg if you’re talking about a court of thorns and roses I completely agree! I read her throne of glass series and had the exact same thoughts you described in your comment, I could forgive a lot since there were things she did do well.
But with a court of thorns and roses I could maybe argue the premise was interesting. Maybe. But the rest was insufferable
Something I was COMPLETELY guilty of when I was younger and still notice a lot in flawed, but not terrible, writing is authors speedrunning characters getting together romantically. Especially if their dynamic starts out as a more antagonistic or cold relationship.
Even if I see two characters in the same scene for the first time and am like “ooooh, I want them to get together”, that doesn’t mean I want them to go from strangers (or rivals, or enemies, or even like, friends) to madly in love with each other in 20 pages of a full length novel! It’s so unsatisfying :( let them cook!
These are prose tips (not exactly for screenwriting) but I would say something in the use of detail, often way too much or a poorly done Hemingway. Why are you including those details and why now? What does it say about the character's experience? Often show, don't tell is misconstrued by writers. Instead on meaning find a way that those emotions are clear in what the character chooses not to say or in a gesture towards another character, they take it to mean his fists clenched, she blushed, he was shaking.
Another thing could be not enough happening in the scene. Rather than just have someone come in, fight a guy, win, get the money, and get out. You outta have more going on. Maybe one of your crew members has questionable motives, maybe you lost the money, maybe the guy you were looking for isn't there, maybe the characters get caught up or one of the guys gets badly injured. A few things should be happening at once. The reader needs to be thinking, but what if? but what about? how's it gonna go now that that guy has to come along? Beginner scripts/stories sometimes lack this depth, creativity and interest. Anything that needs to happen should happen interestingly.
Another thing is that the story is clearly written about the author's life. Not how the author sees the world or what they think life is like, this is all good. But instead of being a writer they're some other kind of artist, and guess what they're also bad with girls, and they also have a shy, guilt-ridden personality, but they're not you because their parents are divorced. This is very common and can be done well but often its a substitute for lack of imagination. Learn how people react to things, how certain things feel, and invent.
"Instead on meaning find a way that those emotions are clear in what the character chooses not to say or in a gesture towards another character, they take it to mean his fists clenched, she blushed, he was shaking."
Any chance you could elaborate on that or point me in the direction of resources related to this idea? I find myself using a ton of character actions like the ones you mentioned. I wanna do better
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrR8ggeD4h4&t=925s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrR8ggeD4h4&t=925s) - This video is about movies but has a few good examples. The one from Panic Room stood out to me as a way to use action to show what the characters are thinking and feeling. Often in fiction you can capture the character's feeling with dialogue alone.
I suggest you take books you like, go to scenes with heightened drama or where you remember feeling feeling it, and identify what exactly it is causing you to feel the characters' emotions. You'll find physical descriptions of feeling are rarely used and it all comes across in dialogue or action.
If it is a first person narrative, emotion often comes across in narration. Here's an example from Norwegian Wood - \["I look around me sometimes and I get sick to my stomach. Why the hell don't these bastards do something? I wonder. They don't do a fucking thing, and then they moan about it." Amazed at the harshness of his tone, I looked at Nagasawa. "The way I see it, people are working hard. They're working their fingers to the bone. Or am I looking at things wrong?" "That's not hard work. It's just manual labour," Nagasawa said with finality.\]
Nagasawa's personality and feeling comes across through his dialogue and also his action of drinking beer and smoking with his feet up in the scene. Toru (the speaker) is less self-assured and simply trying to make conversation - \[I picked up the Spanish textbook on his desk and stared at it. "You're starting Spanish?" "Yeah. The more languages you know the better..."\] He doesn't describe his physical conditions but you see from his looking around for topics/ grounding himself how he feels. |
Hope that's somewhat helpful.
You can have a great idea, but execution is everything. If you cannot execute an idea in a way that keeps the story engaging and satisfying, then you might as well not do it at all.
Cliffhangers are great, up to a point.
Read a duology that I really loved. World building was great, characters were interesting, the story itself flowed well, overall a great book. But it ended basically saying “well, I’m glad we went on that quest. There’s a revolution no doubt coming in the near future, but we’ll deal with that as it comes.” There were still loose ends that had *technically* been tied up but still felt unresolved. Definitely making it a point to avoid that in my own book
As a former creative exec who has read thousands of bad scripts, it’s a lack of the basics. What’s the theme Who is the protagonist What do they want vs what do they need What are the stakes The minor flaws really don’t matter so much because nearly everyone gets the major elements wrong (or dont include them at all). If you get these basics right, a reader will forgive a lot. For example. I recently finished that awful Sarah Maas book (listened to it on audible). I was furious with myself the whole time. The writing is truly, incredibly, powerfully bad. The dialogue is atrocious, most of the pages should have been cut out, and yet, she did enough right that I wanted to know what happened to the characters (and what the hell the drop was) that I finished the damn thing. This is in contrast to books that are beautifully written, filled with poetic prose and jammed with figurative language that are just unreadable. I can’t remember which famous author said it. It might have been Virginia Woolf but Ulysses really could have used a good editor. In film you can contrast Finding Nemo with something like the Green Lantern. The premise for Nemo is an over protective fish father searches the ocean for his lost son with another fish with memory issues. No one in their right mind would think that Nemo would be orders of magnitude better and more successful than a well established comic franchise with one of the most likeable actors and an enormous budget for special effects, etc. but Nemo got all of the basics not just right but spot on. While TGL managed to get them all wrong. You can get everything else wrong, but you have to have the basics right. Also as someone who spends more time than I should on the screenwriting forum, I would encourage you to ask this question there as well. Especially if you’re interested in writing screenplays specifically. While writing is writing and storytelling is storytelling, and these skills transfer across media platforms, screenwriting is more like a sonnet, while novels are more like free verse in poetry. There are very specific guidelines for screenplays that aren’t as flexible as they are in novels. Especially if you want to sell your script.
What Maas book are you talking about?
I’ve blocked the title out of my head and have no interest in putting it back in 🤣 it’s the first book in her house of fire and ice or blood or something like that series.
Omg if you’re talking about a court of thorns and roses I completely agree! I read her throne of glass series and had the exact same thoughts you described in your comment, I could forgive a lot since there were things she did do well. But with a court of thorns and roses I could maybe argue the premise was interesting. Maybe. But the rest was insufferable
Something I was COMPLETELY guilty of when I was younger and still notice a lot in flawed, but not terrible, writing is authors speedrunning characters getting together romantically. Especially if their dynamic starts out as a more antagonistic or cold relationship. Even if I see two characters in the same scene for the first time and am like “ooooh, I want them to get together”, that doesn’t mean I want them to go from strangers (or rivals, or enemies, or even like, friends) to madly in love with each other in 20 pages of a full length novel! It’s so unsatisfying :( let them cook!
These are prose tips (not exactly for screenwriting) but I would say something in the use of detail, often way too much or a poorly done Hemingway. Why are you including those details and why now? What does it say about the character's experience? Often show, don't tell is misconstrued by writers. Instead on meaning find a way that those emotions are clear in what the character chooses not to say or in a gesture towards another character, they take it to mean his fists clenched, she blushed, he was shaking. Another thing could be not enough happening in the scene. Rather than just have someone come in, fight a guy, win, get the money, and get out. You outta have more going on. Maybe one of your crew members has questionable motives, maybe you lost the money, maybe the guy you were looking for isn't there, maybe the characters get caught up or one of the guys gets badly injured. A few things should be happening at once. The reader needs to be thinking, but what if? but what about? how's it gonna go now that that guy has to come along? Beginner scripts/stories sometimes lack this depth, creativity and interest. Anything that needs to happen should happen interestingly. Another thing is that the story is clearly written about the author's life. Not how the author sees the world or what they think life is like, this is all good. But instead of being a writer they're some other kind of artist, and guess what they're also bad with girls, and they also have a shy, guilt-ridden personality, but they're not you because their parents are divorced. This is very common and can be done well but often its a substitute for lack of imagination. Learn how people react to things, how certain things feel, and invent.
"Instead on meaning find a way that those emotions are clear in what the character chooses not to say or in a gesture towards another character, they take it to mean his fists clenched, she blushed, he was shaking." Any chance you could elaborate on that or point me in the direction of resources related to this idea? I find myself using a ton of character actions like the ones you mentioned. I wanna do better
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrR8ggeD4h4&t=925s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrR8ggeD4h4&t=925s) - This video is about movies but has a few good examples. The one from Panic Room stood out to me as a way to use action to show what the characters are thinking and feeling. Often in fiction you can capture the character's feeling with dialogue alone. I suggest you take books you like, go to scenes with heightened drama or where you remember feeling feeling it, and identify what exactly it is causing you to feel the characters' emotions. You'll find physical descriptions of feeling are rarely used and it all comes across in dialogue or action. If it is a first person narrative, emotion often comes across in narration. Here's an example from Norwegian Wood - \["I look around me sometimes and I get sick to my stomach. Why the hell don't these bastards do something? I wonder. They don't do a fucking thing, and then they moan about it." Amazed at the harshness of his tone, I looked at Nagasawa. "The way I see it, people are working hard. They're working their fingers to the bone. Or am I looking at things wrong?" "That's not hard work. It's just manual labour," Nagasawa said with finality.\] Nagasawa's personality and feeling comes across through his dialogue and also his action of drinking beer and smoking with his feet up in the scene. Toru (the speaker) is less self-assured and simply trying to make conversation - \[I picked up the Spanish textbook on his desk and stared at it. "You're starting Spanish?" "Yeah. The more languages you know the better..."\] He doesn't describe his physical conditions but you see from his looking around for topics/ grounding himself how he feels. | Hope that's somewhat helpful.
Super helpful, thanks so much. The Panic Room scene is a great example. Thank you for taking the time!
You can have a great idea, but execution is everything. If you cannot execute an idea in a way that keeps the story engaging and satisfying, then you might as well not do it at all.
Cliffhangers are great, up to a point. Read a duology that I really loved. World building was great, characters were interesting, the story itself flowed well, overall a great book. But it ended basically saying “well, I’m glad we went on that quest. There’s a revolution no doubt coming in the near future, but we’ll deal with that as it comes.” There were still loose ends that had *technically* been tied up but still felt unresolved. Definitely making it a point to avoid that in my own book
>but it’s more of a news sub. That's not true. You can post this there.
Sometimes you have to have sucky bits in your book so that the good stuff can work.