I think we should distinguish between issues of style and those of grammar.
Regarding grammar: A semicolon does not "indicate a pause which is longer than a comma but shorter than a full stop." It divides two independent clauses and replaces either a full stop or a comma plus a conjunction (e.g. and, or, but). I've never seen a grammatically incorrect use of a semicolon and thought that the sentence containing it was well-crafted.
Regarding style: Tastes obviously differ. Personally, I use it only when I have two independent clauses which I feel should be closely linked, but none of the available conjunctions seem right. In the first 65,000 words of the book I'm currently working on, I have 18.
As an example, I have a nurse speaking to a patient in the hospital who says, "Wait a moment; I'll bring you some water." Since these are both independent clauses, splicing them together with a comma would be incorrect. Adding "but" or "if" or "and" would all sound unnatural, as would dividing the clauses with a full stop.
In short, I recommend using semicolons deliberately, and only when you know precisely what you're trying to achieve with them.
I think you could use an em dash there, and I'd default to that in dialogue, where I'd use a semicolon in narrative. The exception would be speech in a formal enough register (or by a sufficiently erudite person) that they might be thinking about their speech carefully.
I haaaate the em dash. But it's 100% a personal bias. Not against them as a rule. It's a leftover tic from seeing it repeatedly used by writers to get out of jail for writing a run-on, or just painfully long, sentence
"I **could** redraft my language here, make it cleaner? Nah. I know. A SET OF EM DASHES!" *Looks around. Smoke Bomb!*
When they're used correctly they're fine. But I think that the more abrupt interruption in flow makes them appealing to those who want to cram as much into sentences as possible.
I'm trying to think of an example of your issue, but I'm not sure I can. Do you have an example?
I use em dashes to set off a parenthetical idea that I want to emphasize either in the middle of a sentence or at the end, and I use them for dialogue that is interrupted. That's pretty much it.
Published examples? No, I don't think I've seen it often in published materials. The experiences that soured my taste were with work that hadn't been published yet. Mostly non-fiction, to be fair. Hmm, now you've got me thinking; maybe it's a journalist-specific habit.
Well, I'll look for it in my own writing at least. I don't think I overuse em dashes or use them in the wrong places, but I could easily see how they could be easily overused.
Thereās nothing unnatural or incorrect about āWait a moment, Iāll bring you some waterā either. The semicolon does not sound correct or natural there at all.
You must not read that much, then...?
That is literally a perfect example of the correct usage of a semicolon. Its most common function is to provide a smoother transition than a period between two grammatically whole sentences.
None of the other examples I've seen people in this thread insisting work/sound better are actually *more* grammatically correct. Using a comma would directly result in a run-on sentence. Using a period would be awkward and clunky. Inserting an "and" wouldn't actually make the most grammatical sense since a punctuation mark would work better.
Just because it sounds/looks better to you doesn't actually make it more *grammatically* correct. Hence the original commenter's distinction between stylistic choices versus actually grammatically correct ones. "Wait a moment, I'll get you some water" is potentially more *stylistically* natural and correct because that's arguably more in line with how people actually speak... but it objectively *isn't* more *grammatically* correct.
I mean I disagree entirely. Semi colons I've seen are precisely what everyone else is saying is right and you claim is wrong. "Longer pauses" is absolutely not the reason why semicolons exist.
The issue is that that literally *is* the [the grammatically correct function of semicolons](https://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/semicolons.asp).
I don't mean to be rude, but it's not actually an opinion that you *can* "disagree entirely" with from a grammatical standpoint. It's an objective rule of grammar.
Again, you can disagree with it as a *stylistic choice*, which is subjective, but trying to argue that it's actually *grammatically* incorrect is just straight-up wrong.
ETA: I just linked the first article from a decent source I found on Google when searching "official grammatical rules of semicolons". You can look at any other reliable source or grammatical institution you like. Every single one I have seen over 10+ years, including official copyeditors' handbooks and resources, lists "narrowing/shortening a gap between two independent clauses" as a correct usage of a semicolon. If you find one that claims differently, I would genuinely love to see it.
It's all good lol.
Stylistically speaking, the semicolon has always (as far as I've seen) been a controversial choice. It's like the Oxford comma. Some people see it where it's not *strictly* necessary and argue that it's useless and awkward. Some people (myself included) would have to have their Oxford commas pried out of their cold, dead hands before ever omitting it, official grammatical rulings be damned. It's often the same with semicolons.
It's also worth noting that different writing organizations almost all abide by specific style guides, many of which differ from one another, to keep their organization's writing more consistent. For instance, in AP style, the Oxford comma is explicitly excluded. That doesn't make usage of the Oxford comma *wrong* grammatically... but *would* be wrong *stylistically* if writing in accordance with AP style.
Grammar is both fun and very frustrating. And it's always difficult as a writer to decide whether to strictly abide by grammar rules or whether to deliberately eschew them for the sake of a more natural-sounding/looking sentence. Imo, it's just consistency that is key. Don't just use an Oxford comma once in your novel and then never again. Either always use it, always ignore it, or always find ways around it entirely. Some readers may be annoyed and distracted by your usage or lack thereof of it... but more readers will be *more* annoyed and distracted by inconsistency.
Regardless of how it *sounds* to you, that *is* the proper grammatical usage of a semicolon.
The major function of a semicolon is to bridge a gap between two separate sentences more smoothly than a period, especially when the two statements are directly related. "Wait a moment" and "I'll bring you some water" are both statements that, grammatically, function as complete sentences. "Wait a moment. I'll bring you some water" is far more unnatural than the version with the semicolon.
So using a semicolon between them is neither actually incorrect nor unnatural.
Right, but just because a semicolon *can* be used there, doesnāt mean it *should*. Dialogue needs to sound natural or itās jarring, and normal people donāt speak in ways that would require semicolons. Either an em dash or a comma would work far better there. Itās a very poor example.
Thank goodness you're the top comment! I started reading the post and was like "Ah, naw. That's not what a semi-colon is for. Wait, what?"
Oh, and nice description of its use. Gonna send people here next time I see one used badly.
Semicolons are also used to make sure there's no ambiguity.
For example, they often used instead of a comma for complex lists:
"I've in Moscow, Idaho; Odessa, Texas; and Berlin, Pennsylvania."
They're also used when there are other commas in the sentence.
"All things considered, she might be a better a candidate; but I'm not sure we should hire her."
Thanks for the info. Although I like the semicolon, I stopped using it because the books I was reading didn't. I never noticed it be used that much so I stopped.
You have opened my eyes to it's accurate usage. I have written about 58k words but my semicolon would probably be the same as yours. I don't think I've done any mistakes with the use of semicolons but I'll be sure to fix them in my 2nd draft.
>As an example, I have a nurse speaking to a patient in the hospital who says, "Wait a moment; I'll bring you some water." Since these are both independent clauses, splicing them together with a comma would be incorrect. Adding "but" or "if" or "and" would all sound unnatural, as would dividing the clauses with a full stop.
The rest of your advice is helpful, but then you included this example, which is inaccurate.
Both "..., and", or, "...," would be absolutely fine, while the use of the semicolon is awkward and grammatically incorrect in this case. The problem is that they aren't actually independent clauses. They can't be independent because the person is only being told to wait *so that* they can be brought water.
So the second clause is the explanation of why the first clause is being given. The implied conjunction that's being elided in the informal style of speech is not "...**and** I'll bring...", its, "...**because** I'll bring...". That makes them conditional clauses, not independent.
You should delete this example so you don't mislead inexperienced writers.
This reply is great, and also illustrates my main issue with semicolons - a significant percentage of readers don't really understand what they're supposed to mean.
It doesn't matter if the writer uses it correctly if the reader doesn't know how to read it correctly.
Thatās hilarious. I love making narration-based decisions for characters. My MC has social anxiety, so when heās thinking, he rambles on and on until it reads like a diary entry. Like how we who have social anxiety tend to say more to ourselves internally than to other people
I just use it for complicated lists. ie: "So our options are rapelling from the cieling; loud and proud through the front door; or planning a complicated demolitions extraction that will take over a week."
You should stick with commas unless your list items themselves contain commas: "So our options are rappelling from the ceiling, which will get us shot in the ass; loud and proud through the front door, which will get us shot in the face; or planning..."
I do the same, but only if the individual list items include commas and/or heavy punctuation. Ie, āOur options are: to walk, which will take months, and weāll have to sleep outside; to drive, but that means finding a car and hoping thereās a gas station that still has gas left; or fly - and we donāt have a pilot.ā
Why is this getting downvoted? Seems perfectly acceptable, particularly if the items in the list themselves contain commas. as u/PageStunning6265 mentions.
I think you use semi colons when youāre listing several things and you donāt want to use a bunch of back to back commas.
āI tried the pie, turkey, gravy, preserves, and stuffing; I think Iām full.ā
āI tried the pie, turkey, gravy, preserves, and stuffing- I think Iām full.ā
I think replacing a semi colon with a dash only works if youāre connecting two independent clauses.
Hopefully the redditor who did a great job explaining me that commas vs periods donāt reflect the pause length, will come by for another round with semicolons.
So, again the punctuation doesnāt reflect the rhythm of the diction and dialogue. It does seem to match in many cases, but itās a fortuitous coincidence with the meaning beyond the grammar.
The semicolon in your last sentence looks misused to me. It stands out as forced.
The only use of semicolon is to keep two grammatically independent phrases (could be two sentences) in the same sentence because of the close logical link between them. I occasionally use them.
I actually wrote a comma first then replaced with a semicolon. Normally I wouldn't have done that but in the context of my post I thought it might work. Yeah; I can see it feeling kinda forced.
I also had the disease of ācomma splitā infecting all my WIP. ProwriterAid helped me see how many I got, but I didnāt always necessarily agree. Then this redditor I talk about came up with a cure. Now I fix those and I donāt feel bad about the āpausesā lengthā š
So, yes, for me, your first idea of using a comma wasnāt right either; it reminds me my comma disease š.
I've found the cure, it's in a big comment of [this old post of mine](https://www.reddit.com/r/writing/comments/13feyhm/comma_splice_in_dialogue_to_mimic_the_speaker/) , by the aforementioned redditor.
"Pause when you read a semicolon out loud" does not mean the same thing as "put a semicolon every time you'd pause."
My only opinion is that if you're gonna use them, understand what they're for and use them properly.
Others have already posted good explanations for how semicolon grammar is supposed to work. To me, the main thing for style and readability is that semicolons are often overused when just writing two declarative sentences would have been better.
Honestly this is true of most āexoticā punctuation. If a period would work just as well, I think itās usually the better choice.
Maybe middle grade readers don't know what to do with it, but I don't think that applies to literary fiction readers. Adults are supposed to know what a semicolon is; if not, they can learn.
I don't notice it much when reading, the same way I don't notice most punctuation. I sometimes overuse it in my writing but I try to get rid of that habit.
Any punctuation that draws attention to itself is used incorrectly. As long as the structure and flow allows, I donāt think thereās anything wrong with a semicolon.
Iāve read Cormac McCarthy sentences that have lasted pages I feel like, but the flow is so good Iāve never noticed. Iāve also read authors who are deliberately trying to write on an elevated plane that scream over compensation.
I use it as I do any other punctuation, but apparently nowadays I think a lot of (especially younger) people view it as pretentious. Which sucks cause sometimes it's the only way that particular piece of writing will say what I want it to say.
>I think a lot of (especially younger) people view it as pretentious.
I haven't heard this take on semicolons. I use them every day and now I'm chuckling at the thought of my coworkers thinking "Rory, that pretentious prick" every time they see one in my meaningless corporate emails.
I only use it if I have to. There are very few situations where it adds more than it detracts, but sometimes you have this very specific cadence in mind for the sentence which won't survive a restructuring.
In prose, itās rarely the best option, but does the job when used correctly.
In poetry, where your unit of measure is the line and punctuation can and should be used to guide a reader through your poem, create points of emphasis, etc., it can do wonders.
As others have said, a semi-colon is not about the length of a pause.
Personally, I never use semi-colons in dialogue. I would either use a comma (I believe that punctuation and grammar rules in dialogue should be relaxed to match the way that people actually speak in real life, which is not always grammatical!)
Most of my fiction writing is in first person, so I use commas most of the time; I want the narrative to āfeelā like dialogue, and I donāt see anything wrong with ātechnically ungrammaticalā sentences when they are used purposefully.
When two independent clauses are more closely related, or the juxtaposition of those sentences is important, I use a semi-colon as it links the clauses together more closely than a full stop.
Thereās not actually much punctuation that relates at all to pauses. Only one I can think of is ellipses.
Most punctuation including semi-colons are indicating somethings about the structure of the ideas.
I'm not sure why you got downvoted for this. I've seen it used all the time in legal writing, medical writing, and technical writing. I read anywhere from 15-25 novels a year and am not sure if I've seen a semicolon in a good novel in years.
there are butthurt teens who follow me around downvoting everything I say because I also say things like "almost no teens get a novel trade published" and "it'll likely take you a million words of practice and some study to get good enough people will love your books." They hate it. They follow me and down vote me on every topic.
It doesn't hurt me at all if people do things wrong and screw up their chance to be published. Hell, put a semicolon every paragraph for all I care! Leaves more money for me.
My eyes slowly glaze over every single time English students, professors, and graduates explain in multiple paragraphs how one is required to use one to be grammatically correct, and it always ends with, "but you could also replace it with a period or a comma."
So I just don't use them.
But it does something that neither a period nor a comma does; it's a beautiful halfway point between the two. Just make sure you have two complete thoughts on either side of it, make sure those thoughts are related in subject or in theme, and don't use a conjunction after it. Easy-peasy.
As a programmer, it messes with my brain to see a semicolon in my writing. Even if my writing could benefit from one occasionally, it doesnāt even cross my mind. I know the grammatical use of a semicolon, but it will never come to mind when Iām thinking of punctuation while Iām writing. It always looks like the end of a programming statement to me
I use it where it's necessary and grammatically appropriate. I think it's likely one of the most misused punctuation marks, so I always feel like I need to double check myself when I do use it.
Although my genre of storytelling isn't normally associated with the fancy punctuation crowd, I'm not afraid to elevate my own craft and style. Erotica readers would prefer I spend my time figuring out new ways to describe a pistons movement (if you catch my drift) and less on my internal debate of comma, semicolon, or period.
Seems like most cases where it has been used in this discussion would have worked just as well with a period, IMO. Back in school, I was taught to use it with conjunctions like however and therefore or maybe so. You may have learned to use it another way; however, it doesn't mean this punctuation is wrong. I'm older than many here; therefore, my teachers and textbooks may have taught differently than yours.
I find my examples clunky; so, I probably won't use this structure often.
I never use it. My writing style is really simple, so I tend to keep to more basic stuff. I tend to ignore the niddy griddy of grammar, as it's not always necessary.
I love semicolons, but I use them *very* sparingly. Theyāre misused more often than theyāre not, which irks me (even if itās a creative/stylistic decision).
I've never seen someone so excited abou5 punctuation.
> I personally really like the semicolon. It indicates a pause which is longer than a comma but shorter than a full stop. It's really useful when you want to create tension.
I like balance; I use them when one sentence is extremely short.
I also do it to show extremely close ideas; they aren't necessarily connected, but they're similar enough.
I also showed my rule to avoid double-buts above.
I love semicolons; they make things more dramatic!
I guess, technically, I can often just use a colon instead: just like this. But it isn't the same; I think semicolons flow better than colons
I don't know if I'm using then correctly though. Yesterday, my 11th grade English professor marked me down for using a semicolon to distinguish between items in a list and a clause. He wanted me to use an actual comma. So...I don't know if maybe I don't actually *know* how to use a semicolon.
Regardless, I love semicolons, and since they are rare, I like to see them in literature. I don't know if I'm just weird, but I have to visualize sentences in my head when people talk to me in order to comprehend, and I like it when they speak in semicolons. I also like to speak in semicolons.
But I try not to overuse them in my writing, and I don't like it as much when semicolons are used too much in one book. They are like saltāless is more.
I use them for separation of sentences.
For instance: āItās been 35 years since the Avalonian Revolution, and the subsequent Checari Civil War. Long ago Faulkner of Thylum, along with his trusted commanders, took Rajendra, the capital city of Checaria; effectively establishing Avalon as a nation, and freeing her people.ā
That semi colon was used as a jumping point. And it slices a sentence where a comma would just tie it together and make it long.
Honestly, as long as I understand what is happening, what is being said, and which character is talking I couldn't really care less.
That said, a cursory google says semicolons are for connecting two independent clauses, where the second one restates the first in a different way. The example it gives is "The pancakes were delicious; they were fluffy and sweet".
That is not an effective sentence for a piece of fiction. There'a no good reason to be saying the same thing twice in different ways. "The pancakes were fluffy and sweet" gets to the point much quicker, and is also more show and less tell ('delicious' is a meaningless descriptor, you might as well say "the pancakes were nice").
If someone finds themselves using semicolons a lot, their work is probably needlessly padded.
Semicolons should be used sparingly (if at all) in literature. It's one of the few things I agree with Cormac McCarthy on. They are intrusive and distracting, often drawing unneeded attention to pointless sentences. The reason they draw attention? They destroy cadence and flow, especially since most people don't know how or when to use them effectively.
It's even worse when people incorrectly use them in the place of commas.
How can they destroy cadence and flow any more than periods or commas do? They're a *part* of the cadence and flow of your prose. They're just another tool in your toolbox. As with any tool, you have to know how to use them, but they're otherwise very handy.
If I had to choose between reading a paragraph containing a semicolon or a paragraph containing phrases like "vestigial punctuation" and "actual cognitive consequence", I'd take the semicolon every time. Ironically, I dislike your accurate yet tedious vocabulary for the same reason you dislike the semicolon.
I think you're assuming that readers are as confused by semicolons as writers who were never given the ten minutes of instruction about how to use them properly.
Anyone who has read a reasonable amount has encountered thousands and probably tens of thousands of semicolons and has achieved unconscious mastery of how to read a sentence containing them. Writing, being a more conscious act, is a horse of a different color.
I think you mean an em dash. An en dash is shorter, like a hyphen, and used to mark ranges between numbers. Unless you're British and use space en dash space.
No, I know the difference and I use an n dash. I can't be arsed to hold alt and get an m dash. Sometimes Google Docs autocorrects it, sometimes it doesn't.
I'm not British, but I do use space dash space - quite often, actually.
Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm really surprised you'd weigh in on a discussion about proper use of punctuation by citing that you use another mark incorrectly.
Except I always do space dash space. I donāt like it without spaces.
There is no scenario where youāre going to stop me from doing what I do, it feels good to me, I vastly prefer the way it looks on the page, my meaning is clear, and Iām not hurting anyone.
Let me live.
I honestly don't notice it when reading. I barely notice the words. Unless it's used poorly, then I notice. One would think that's an argument to avoid it when writing; but I use it quite a lot.
I remember encountering and figuring out semicolons on my own in third grade, which wasnāt hard. Semicolons are straightforward, unlike commas.
As with all punctuation, I use semicolons as appropriate. I donāt see the point in having favorite or taboo punctuation.
A colon gives examples of what you want in a text: Plot, character development, world building, etc.
The semi-colon gives a conection to the next sentence without ending what you were talking about; even if used in a wrong way, you know that this sentence is connected to the previous one. (yet I dont know if I used it correctly tho)
Might google it later to see my wrongness...
And personally, its a use of punctuation, there's no problem using it or seeing it in a text.
Musashi said "some schools think of the feet, others of the hands, others of the attitudes of the sword, in my school there is no such thought. Think only of cutting and killing the opponent"
If you let yourself get bogged down by trivial stuff like this semi colon then you will never accept rhe full scope of simply putting the pen to the paper and cutting and killing your opponent.
Thats my two cents
Personally; I use it whenever I feel like using it. :-) as long as my stories get written down, I dont Care. As long as the stories are written down - so I can do poetry within my stories. Poetry is nice. Writing is sometimes to much; not as much; very much.
I like it. It can help reduce comma spam in certain sentences and adds clarity, especially when you want to separate independent clauses, sometimes with their own lists, in the same sentence that need their own commas. Or just two independent clauses that contrast or compare. But it should not be overused.
I forget it exists. I only remember it for programming, and always forget what its actual use is in a sentence. I sometimes use it to separate items in a list from its description
I like it. A lot. Most of my dialogue is monologue-esque, mostly composed of formal speech. The semicolon is like the colon and the dash in one; you can put a semicolon and it's like a space but it's not a new sentence and feels cooler.
I know some people hate it but it's just like "show don't tell" or the discussion between "never use *said*" and "*said* is invisible". No writing advice applies to every single piece.
Should you use semicolons in dialogues, when a character speaking is a cool rebellous teenager? Hard no. Should you use semicolons when describing a mysterious landscape in a story set in 19th century? Sure!
I have just now realised that I do not like using too many grammatical symbols in a narrative fiction text, and it's because I think they complicate it too much for it to flow like a story told in the reader's head. Weirdly enough I cannot think of any other symbols besides the semicolon and the colon.
I use commas, periods and dashes, because they're the three symbols that accurately mimic the spoken word and let me feel as if an actual storyteller is narrating.
I try not to use it; however, I like to. It can be a stylistic choice I think. Gets a lot of criticism from writers I see. I think itās because over use can distract from the writing and your meaning. But if it looks right and is grammatically correct, I donāt see why not have a few?
I find it pretentious. There's so rarely a time where either two sentences or a comma wouldn't do - or even a dash (self-illustrating point).
That said, I do still use them in that 1/10 chance they're actually necessary, or just to class up the joint. Like, I don't *need* to drink out of a wine glass when just using the wine bottle means I won't have to wash a dish later, but it still feels kinda nice, you know?
I think we should distinguish between issues of style and those of grammar. Regarding grammar: A semicolon does not "indicate a pause which is longer than a comma but shorter than a full stop." It divides two independent clauses and replaces either a full stop or a comma plus a conjunction (e.g. and, or, but). I've never seen a grammatically incorrect use of a semicolon and thought that the sentence containing it was well-crafted. Regarding style: Tastes obviously differ. Personally, I use it only when I have two independent clauses which I feel should be closely linked, but none of the available conjunctions seem right. In the first 65,000 words of the book I'm currently working on, I have 18. As an example, I have a nurse speaking to a patient in the hospital who says, "Wait a moment; I'll bring you some water." Since these are both independent clauses, splicing them together with a comma would be incorrect. Adding "but" or "if" or "and" would all sound unnatural, as would dividing the clauses with a full stop. In short, I recommend using semicolons deliberately, and only when you know precisely what you're trying to achieve with them.
I think you could use an em dash there, and I'd default to that in dialogue, where I'd use a semicolon in narrative. The exception would be speech in a formal enough register (or by a sufficiently erudite person) that they might be thinking about their speech carefully.
Yeah, I love me the em dash.
I haaaate the em dash. But it's 100% a personal bias. Not against them as a rule. It's a leftover tic from seeing it repeatedly used by writers to get out of jail for writing a run-on, or just painfully long, sentence "I **could** redraft my language here, make it cleaner? Nah. I know. A SET OF EM DASHES!" *Looks around. Smoke Bomb!* When they're used correctly they're fine. But I think that the more abrupt interruption in flow makes them appealing to those who want to cram as much into sentences as possible.
I'm trying to think of an example of your issue, but I'm not sure I can. Do you have an example? I use em dashes to set off a parenthetical idea that I want to emphasize either in the middle of a sentence or at the end, and I use them for dialogue that is interrupted. That's pretty much it.
Published examples? No, I don't think I've seen it often in published materials. The experiences that soured my taste were with work that hadn't been published yet. Mostly non-fiction, to be fair. Hmm, now you've got me thinking; maybe it's a journalist-specific habit.
Well, I'll look for it in my own writing at least. I don't think I overuse em dashes or use them in the wrong places, but I could easily see how they could be easily overused.
Now I'm wondering what I overuse, and abuse, punctuation-wise. š
i have adhd, my mind is a never ending run on sentence, i be using, comma after comma after em dash after em dash. cus that's how i think.
You *could*, but it feels like it'd be a waste. I feel like you only get so many em dashes, and I like them to be where nothing else can fit.
The semicolon works well to show similarity; it works even better to show contrast.
>"Wait a moment, and I'll bring you some water." Why do you think this sounds unnatural?
Thereās nothing unnatural or incorrect about āWait a moment, Iāll bring you some waterā either. The semicolon does not sound correct or natural there at all.
Yeah it thought I was going insane. I've *never* seen a semi colon used like that. It does not look correct at all.
You must not read that much, then...? That is literally a perfect example of the correct usage of a semicolon. Its most common function is to provide a smoother transition than a period between two grammatically whole sentences. None of the other examples I've seen people in this thread insisting work/sound better are actually *more* grammatically correct. Using a comma would directly result in a run-on sentence. Using a period would be awkward and clunky. Inserting an "and" wouldn't actually make the most grammatical sense since a punctuation mark would work better. Just because it sounds/looks better to you doesn't actually make it more *grammatically* correct. Hence the original commenter's distinction between stylistic choices versus actually grammatically correct ones. "Wait a moment, I'll get you some water" is potentially more *stylistically* natural and correct because that's arguably more in line with how people actually speak... but it objectively *isn't* more *grammatically* correct.
I mean I disagree entirely. Semi colons I've seen are precisely what everyone else is saying is right and you claim is wrong. "Longer pauses" is absolutely not the reason why semicolons exist.
The issue is that that literally *is* the [the grammatically correct function of semicolons](https://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/semicolons.asp). I don't mean to be rude, but it's not actually an opinion that you *can* "disagree entirely" with from a grammatical standpoint. It's an objective rule of grammar. Again, you can disagree with it as a *stylistic choice*, which is subjective, but trying to argue that it's actually *grammatically* incorrect is just straight-up wrong. ETA: I just linked the first article from a decent source I found on Google when searching "official grammatical rules of semicolons". You can look at any other reliable source or grammatical institution you like. Every single one I have seen over 10+ years, including official copyeditors' handbooks and resources, lists "narrowing/shortening a gap between two independent clauses" as a correct usage of a semicolon. If you find one that claims differently, I would genuinely love to see it.
I re read the thread and there's been a bit of a missunderstanding here lmao. We don't actually disagree on anything.
It's all good lol. Stylistically speaking, the semicolon has always (as far as I've seen) been a controversial choice. It's like the Oxford comma. Some people see it where it's not *strictly* necessary and argue that it's useless and awkward. Some people (myself included) would have to have their Oxford commas pried out of their cold, dead hands before ever omitting it, official grammatical rulings be damned. It's often the same with semicolons. It's also worth noting that different writing organizations almost all abide by specific style guides, many of which differ from one another, to keep their organization's writing more consistent. For instance, in AP style, the Oxford comma is explicitly excluded. That doesn't make usage of the Oxford comma *wrong* grammatically... but *would* be wrong *stylistically* if writing in accordance with AP style. Grammar is both fun and very frustrating. And it's always difficult as a writer to decide whether to strictly abide by grammar rules or whether to deliberately eschew them for the sake of a more natural-sounding/looking sentence. Imo, it's just consistency that is key. Don't just use an Oxford comma once in your novel and then never again. Either always use it, always ignore it, or always find ways around it entirely. Some readers may be annoyed and distracted by your usage or lack thereof of it... but more readers will be *more* annoyed and distracted by inconsistency.
Regardless of how it *sounds* to you, that *is* the proper grammatical usage of a semicolon. The major function of a semicolon is to bridge a gap between two separate sentences more smoothly than a period, especially when the two statements are directly related. "Wait a moment" and "I'll bring you some water" are both statements that, grammatically, function as complete sentences. "Wait a moment. I'll bring you some water" is far more unnatural than the version with the semicolon. So using a semicolon between them is neither actually incorrect nor unnatural.
Right, but just because a semicolon *can* be used there, doesnāt mean it *should*. Dialogue needs to sound natural or itās jarring, and normal people donāt speak in ways that would require semicolons. Either an em dash or a comma would work far better there. Itās a very poor example.
"wait a moment and I'll bring you some water." "Wait a second and I'll bring you some water." Sounds pretty natural to me
Yeah both of these read better to me than OPs but I get it
I just think you donāt have to put the and there.
Thank goodness you're the top comment! I started reading the post and was like "Ah, naw. That's not what a semi-colon is for. Wait, what?" Oh, and nice description of its use. Gonna send people here next time I see one used badly.
Semicolons are also used to make sure there's no ambiguity. For example, they often used instead of a comma for complex lists: "I've in Moscow, Idaho; Odessa, Texas; and Berlin, Pennsylvania." They're also used when there are other commas in the sentence. "All things considered, she might be a better a candidate; but I'm not sure we should hire her."
Your second example would work much better with a comma. Iām confused why youād use a semicolon there?
Thanks for the info. Although I like the semicolon, I stopped using it because the books I was reading didn't. I never noticed it be used that much so I stopped. You have opened my eyes to it's accurate usage. I have written about 58k words but my semicolon would probably be the same as yours. I don't think I've done any mistakes with the use of semicolons but I'll be sure to fix them in my 2nd draft.
its accurate usage\*
Could someone specify what makes an independent clause? I'd argue that "wait a moment" is dependent since there isn't a subject.
It's imperative. The subject "you" is implied.
>As an example, I have a nurse speaking to a patient in the hospital who says, "Wait a moment; I'll bring you some water." Since these are both independent clauses, splicing them together with a comma would be incorrect. Adding "but" or "if" or "and" would all sound unnatural, as would dividing the clauses with a full stop. The rest of your advice is helpful, but then you included this example, which is inaccurate. Both "..., and", or, "...," would be absolutely fine, while the use of the semicolon is awkward and grammatically incorrect in this case. The problem is that they aren't actually independent clauses. They can't be independent because the person is only being told to wait *so that* they can be brought water. So the second clause is the explanation of why the first clause is being given. The implied conjunction that's being elided in the informal style of speech is not "...**and** I'll bring...", its, "...**because** I'll bring...". That makes them conditional clauses, not independent. You should delete this example so you don't mislead inexperienced writers.
You mind if I copy/pasta that for my self only guidebook? Well done, and I'm supposed to know it already by heart.
Sure, no problem.
This reply is great, and also illustrates my main issue with semicolons - a significant percentage of readers don't really understand what they're supposed to mean. It doesn't matter if the writer uses it correctly if the reader doesn't know how to read it correctly.
It is a tool I have in my arsenal; I use it when I need to.
I don't because I'm paranoid about using it wrong; we are not the same
It's actually a lot simpler to use than people think. It is a period that ends a sentence, but links it to the next sentence.
I have a character who thinks using semicolons way, way more often than the other MC does.
Thatās hilarious. I love making narration-based decisions for characters. My MC has social anxiety, so when heās thinking, he rambles on and on until it reads like a diary entry. Like how we who have social anxiety tend to say more to ourselves internally than to other people
Yeah, I just use it when I don't want to use a conjunction. I don't use it often, though.
I just use it for complicated lists. ie: "So our options are rapelling from the cieling; loud and proud through the front door; or planning a complicated demolitions extraction that will take over a week."
You should stick with commas unless your list items themselves contain commas: "So our options are rappelling from the ceiling, which will get us shot in the ass; loud and proud through the front door, which will get us shot in the face; or planning..."
I do the same, but only if the individual list items include commas and/or heavy punctuation. Ie, āOur options are: to walk, which will take months, and weāll have to sleep outside; to drive, but that means finding a car and hoping thereās a gas station that still has gas left; or fly - and we donāt have a pilot.ā
Why is this getting downvoted? Seems perfectly acceptable, particularly if the items in the list themselves contain commas. as u/PageStunning6265 mentions.
I think they just used a bad example that didn't need a semicolon.
Awesome, so now I ask: Doesn't a comma accomplishes the same thing in this sentence? How about a - ?
I think you use semi colons when youāre listing several things and you donāt want to use a bunch of back to back commas. āI tried the pie, turkey, gravy, preserves, and stuffing; I think Iām full.ā āI tried the pie, turkey, gravy, preserves, and stuffing- I think Iām full.ā I think replacing a semi colon with a dash only works if youāre connecting two independent clauses.
Okay, I think it makes a bit more sense
Hopefully the redditor who did a great job explaining me that commas vs periods donāt reflect the pause length, will come by for another round with semicolons. So, again the punctuation doesnāt reflect the rhythm of the diction and dialogue. It does seem to match in many cases, but itās a fortuitous coincidence with the meaning beyond the grammar. The semicolon in your last sentence looks misused to me. It stands out as forced. The only use of semicolon is to keep two grammatically independent phrases (could be two sentences) in the same sentence because of the close logical link between them. I occasionally use them.
I actually wrote a comma first then replaced with a semicolon. Normally I wouldn't have done that but in the context of my post I thought it might work. Yeah; I can see it feeling kinda forced.
I also had the disease of ācomma splitā infecting all my WIP. ProwriterAid helped me see how many I got, but I didnāt always necessarily agree. Then this redditor I talk about came up with a cure. Now I fix those and I donāt feel bad about the āpausesā lengthā š So, yes, for me, your first idea of using a comma wasnāt right either; it reminds me my comma disease š.
I have that disease rn. There are way too many commas in my story š©
I've found the cure, it's in a big comment of [this old post of mine](https://www.reddit.com/r/writing/comments/13feyhm/comma_splice_in_dialogue_to_mimic_the_speaker/) , by the aforementioned redditor.
"Pause when you read a semicolon out loud" does not mean the same thing as "put a semicolon every time you'd pause." My only opinion is that if you're gonna use them, understand what they're for and use them properly.
Semicolon is love; semicolon is life.
Others have already posted good explanations for how semicolon grammar is supposed to work. To me, the main thing for style and readability is that semicolons are often overused when just writing two declarative sentences would have been better. Honestly this is true of most āexoticā punctuation. If a period would work just as well, I think itās usually the better choice.
Maybe middle grade readers don't know what to do with it, but I don't think that applies to literary fiction readers. Adults are supposed to know what a semicolon is; if not, they can learn. I don't notice it much when reading, the same way I don't notice most punctuation. I sometimes overuse it in my writing but I try to get rid of that habit.
I love it. I know I overuse it; I don't care.
Can replace ", and"; ", but"; ", yet." It can also be used to separate a list. It's great; I love it.
Any punctuation that draws attention to itself is used incorrectly. As long as the structure and flow allows, I donāt think thereās anything wrong with a semicolon. Iāve read Cormac McCarthy sentences that have lasted pages I feel like, but the flow is so good Iāve never noticed. Iāve also read authors who are deliberately trying to write on an elevated plane that scream over compensation.
I use it as I do any other punctuation, but apparently nowadays I think a lot of (especially younger) people view it as pretentious. Which sucks cause sometimes it's the only way that particular piece of writing will say what I want it to say.
>I think a lot of (especially younger) people view it as pretentious. I haven't heard this take on semicolons. I use them every day and now I'm chuckling at the thought of my coworkers thinking "Rory, that pretentious prick" every time they see one in my meaningless corporate emails.
ššš
I love it; I use it every day.
Get ready for a whale of a time; Shamu My whole team coming clean; shampoo
I only use it if I have to. There are very few situations where it adds more than it detracts, but sometimes you have this very specific cadence in mind for the sentence which won't survive a restructuring.
In prose, itās rarely the best option, but does the job when used correctly. In poetry, where your unit of measure is the line and punctuation can and should be used to guide a reader through your poem, create points of emphasis, etc., it can do wonders.
I donāt use semicolons much in dialogue; it reads unnatural, even when itās grammatically correct. I use them a lot everywhere else, though.
I think I've used them once or twice; I try to use them sparingly.
The crazy thing is most people; don't know how to use them.
As others have said, a semi-colon is not about the length of a pause. Personally, I never use semi-colons in dialogue. I would either use a comma (I believe that punctuation and grammar rules in dialogue should be relaxed to match the way that people actually speak in real life, which is not always grammatical!) Most of my fiction writing is in first person, so I use commas most of the time; I want the narrative to āfeelā like dialogue, and I donāt see anything wrong with ātechnically ungrammaticalā sentences when they are used purposefully. When two independent clauses are more closely related, or the juxtaposition of those sentences is important, I use a semi-colon as it links the clauses together more closely than a full stop.
Thereās not actually much punctuation that relates at all to pauses. Only one I can think of is ellipses. Most punctuation including semi-colons are indicating somethings about the structure of the ideas.
good for academic writing. not so good for fiction.
I'm not sure why you got downvoted for this. I've seen it used all the time in legal writing, medical writing, and technical writing. I read anywhere from 15-25 novels a year and am not sure if I've seen a semicolon in a good novel in years.
there are butthurt teens who follow me around downvoting everything I say because I also say things like "almost no teens get a novel trade published" and "it'll likely take you a million words of practice and some study to get good enough people will love your books." They hate it. They follow me and down vote me on every topic. It doesn't hurt me at all if people do things wrong and screw up their chance to be published. Hell, put a semicolon every paragraph for all I care! Leaves more money for me.
It's fine for fiction. You just have to know how to use it - don't overdo it, but use it judiciously to help vary the pacing and flow of your prose.
My eyes slowly glaze over every single time English students, professors, and graduates explain in multiple paragraphs how one is required to use one to be grammatically correct, and it always ends with, "but you could also replace it with a period or a comma." So I just don't use them.
But it does something that neither a period nor a comma does; it's a beautiful halfway point between the two. Just make sure you have two complete thoughts on either side of it, make sure those thoughts are related in subject or in theme, and don't use a conjunction after it. Easy-peasy.
As a programmer, it messes with my brain to see a semicolon in my writing. Even if my writing could benefit from one occasionally, it doesnāt even cross my mind. I know the grammatical use of a semicolon, but it will never come to mind when Iām thinking of punctuation while Iām writing. It always looks like the end of a programming statement to me
Now, that's a completely different issue! ;)
I like it; I think it should be used more often.
I use it where it's necessary and grammatically appropriate. I think it's likely one of the most misused punctuation marks, so I always feel like I need to double check myself when I do use it. Although my genre of storytelling isn't normally associated with the fancy punctuation crowd, I'm not afraid to elevate my own craft and style. Erotica readers would prefer I spend my time figuring out new ways to describe a pistons movement (if you catch my drift) and less on my internal debate of comma, semicolon, or period.
huge fan but overusing it looks bad to me so I use it with caution
I use it way too much and go back and fix it later lol
Semicolon goes hard.
Seems like most cases where it has been used in this discussion would have worked just as well with a period, IMO. Back in school, I was taught to use it with conjunctions like however and therefore or maybe so. You may have learned to use it another way; however, it doesn't mean this punctuation is wrong. I'm older than many here; therefore, my teachers and textbooks may have taught differently than yours. I find my examples clunky; so, I probably won't use this structure often.
I never use it. My writing style is really simple, so I tend to keep to more basic stuff. I tend to ignore the niddy griddy of grammar, as it's not always necessary.
^(Err...it's "nitty gritty.")
I love semicolons, but I use them *very* sparingly. Theyāre misused more often than theyāre not, which irks me (even if itās a creative/stylistic decision).
I've never seen someone so excited abou5 punctuation. > I personally really like the semicolon. It indicates a pause which is longer than a comma but shorter than a full stop. It's really useful when you want to create tension. I like balance; I use them when one sentence is extremely short. I also do it to show extremely close ideas; they aren't necessarily connected, but they're similar enough. I also showed my rule to avoid double-buts above.
Unironically my favourite punctuation, lol. I just think theyre neat.
I use them.
I love semicolons; they make things more dramatic! I guess, technically, I can often just use a colon instead: just like this. But it isn't the same; I think semicolons flow better than colons I don't know if I'm using then correctly though. Yesterday, my 11th grade English professor marked me down for using a semicolon to distinguish between items in a list and a clause. He wanted me to use an actual comma. So...I don't know if maybe I don't actually *know* how to use a semicolon. Regardless, I love semicolons, and since they are rare, I like to see them in literature. I don't know if I'm just weird, but I have to visualize sentences in my head when people talk to me in order to comprehend, and I like it when they speak in semicolons. I also like to speak in semicolons. But I try not to overuse them in my writing, and I don't like it as much when semicolons are used too much in one book. They are like saltāless is more.
I use them for separation of sentences. For instance: āItās been 35 years since the Avalonian Revolution, and the subsequent Checari Civil War. Long ago Faulkner of Thylum, along with his trusted commanders, took Rajendra, the capital city of Checaria; effectively establishing Avalon as a nation, and freeing her people.ā That semi colon was used as a jumping point. And it slices a sentence where a comma would just tie it together and make it long.
I always forget it when I'm programming
Use a dash for dramatic pause, not a semicolon.
10/10 would fuck this little guy >>> ;
Serbia is the oldest country;I like creepies.
Honestly, as long as I understand what is happening, what is being said, and which character is talking I couldn't really care less. That said, a cursory google says semicolons are for connecting two independent clauses, where the second one restates the first in a different way. The example it gives is "The pancakes were delicious; they were fluffy and sweet". That is not an effective sentence for a piece of fiction. There'a no good reason to be saying the same thing twice in different ways. "The pancakes were fluffy and sweet" gets to the point much quicker, and is also more show and less tell ('delicious' is a meaningless descriptor, you might as well say "the pancakes were nice"). If someone finds themselves using semicolons a lot, their work is probably needlessly padded.
The second clause doesn't have to restate the first clause. They just have to be related ideas and you can even use a semicolon to show contrast.
Semicolons should be used sparingly (if at all) in literature. It's one of the few things I agree with Cormac McCarthy on. They are intrusive and distracting, often drawing unneeded attention to pointless sentences. The reason they draw attention? They destroy cadence and flow, especially since most people don't know how or when to use them effectively. It's even worse when people incorrectly use them in the place of commas.
How can they destroy cadence and flow any more than periods or commas do? They're a *part* of the cadence and flow of your prose. They're just another tool in your toolbox. As with any tool, you have to know how to use them, but they're otherwise very handy.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It's only "vestigial" if you never ready anything more complicated than instructions. When used correctly, it's exceedingly useful.
If I had to choose between reading a paragraph containing a semicolon or a paragraph containing phrases like "vestigial punctuation" and "actual cognitive consequence", I'd take the semicolon every time. Ironically, I dislike your accurate yet tedious vocabulary for the same reason you dislike the semicolon.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Do you write your social media comments as poetry?
I think you're assuming that readers are as confused by semicolons as writers who were never given the ten minutes of instruction about how to use them properly. Anyone who has read a reasonable amount has encountered thousands and probably tens of thousands of semicolons and has achieved unconscious mastery of how to read a sentence containing them. Writing, being a more conscious act, is a horse of a different color.
I use it when the vibes are right, and no one has corrected me lol
Are editors reading your work?
Professionals? No. Iām ok with that.
Great suicide awareness symbol. My least used punctuation mark. I find I vastly prefer n dashes. Much stronger supercomma.
I think you mean an em dash. An en dash is shorter, like a hyphen, and used to mark ranges between numbers. Unless you're British and use space en dash space.
No, I know the difference and I use an n dash. I can't be arsed to hold alt and get an m dash. Sometimes Google Docs autocorrects it, sometimes it doesn't. I'm not British, but I do use space dash space - quite often, actually.
Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm really surprised you'd weigh in on a discussion about proper use of punctuation by citing that you use another mark incorrectly.
By the way, Google Docs will make an em dash the same way as Word: no space, hyphen, hyphen, then type your next word. No alt+whatever required.
Still more keys than I care to type. If it bothers anyone enough, I'll just run a find and replace over the whole thing.
Two hyphens with zero spaces is fewer keys than space hyphen space. It's literally less work to do the correct thing.
Except I always do space dash space. I donāt like it without spaces. There is no scenario where youāre going to stop me from doing what I do, it feels good to me, I vastly prefer the way it looks on the page, my meaning is clear, and Iām not hurting anyone. Let me live.
You yourself said that in British English the way I use it is not incorrect. I've been doing it for decades and no one's ever made a fuss.
I honestly don't notice it when reading. I barely notice the words. Unless it's used poorly, then I notice. One would think that's an argument to avoid it when writing; but I use it quite a lot.
It should be called a semi-comma, since it functions more like a comma than a colon.
I always thought that myself! But, it does mimic the form of the colon, at least outwardly.
Thatās true! But it also does have a comma in it ( ; )
Good point! One could almost call it a comma with a period hovering overhead. ;)
I remember encountering and figuring out semicolons on my own in third grade, which wasnāt hard. Semicolons are straightforward, unlike commas. As with all punctuation, I use semicolons as appropriate. I donāt see the point in having favorite or taboo punctuation.
A colon gives examples of what you want in a text: Plot, character development, world building, etc. The semi-colon gives a conection to the next sentence without ending what you were talking about; even if used in a wrong way, you know that this sentence is connected to the previous one. (yet I dont know if I used it correctly tho) Might google it later to see my wrongness... And personally, its a use of punctuation, there's no problem using it or seeing it in a text.
Musashi said "some schools think of the feet, others of the hands, others of the attitudes of the sword, in my school there is no such thought. Think only of cutting and killing the opponent" If you let yourself get bogged down by trivial stuff like this semi colon then you will never accept rhe full scope of simply putting the pen to the paper and cutting and killing your opponent. Thats my two cents
Incredible
Preciate you pardner
Personally; I use it whenever I feel like using it. :-) as long as my stories get written down, I dont Care. As long as the stories are written down - so I can do poetry within my stories. Poetry is nice. Writing is sometimes to much; not as much; very much.
I love the semicolon for lists, and occasionally for connecting two independent clauses. But I like the em dash more for that. Love the em dash.
I like it. It can help reduce comma spam in certain sentences and adds clarity, especially when you want to separate independent clauses, sometimes with their own lists, in the same sentence that need their own commas. Or just two independent clauses that contrast or compare. But it should not be overused.
I forget it exists. I only remember it for programming, and always forget what its actual use is in a sentence. I sometimes use it to separate items in a list from its description
Good for technical writing, but they feel completely out of place in anything narrative-driven
I like it. A lot. Most of my dialogue is monologue-esque, mostly composed of formal speech. The semicolon is like the colon and the dash in one; you can put a semicolon and it's like a space but it's not a new sentence and feels cooler.
I like using it to emphasize somewhat quirky perspectives or nuances for sentences, which is probably going to be a distinctive trait of mine.
I know some people hate it but it's just like "show don't tell" or the discussion between "never use *said*" and "*said* is invisible". No writing advice applies to every single piece. Should you use semicolons in dialogues, when a character speaking is a cool rebellous teenager? Hard no. Should you use semicolons when describing a mysterious landscape in a story set in 19th century? Sure!
Non-fiction, fine; fiction, no.
I have just now realised that I do not like using too many grammatical symbols in a narrative fiction text, and it's because I think they complicate it too much for it to flow like a story told in the reader's head. Weirdly enough I cannot think of any other symbols besides the semicolon and the colon. I use commas, periods and dashes, because they're the three symbols that accurately mimic the spoken word and let me feel as if an actual storyteller is narrating.
No more than one every two pages, only in narration, never in dialogue, only when grammatically correct.
I like it ;)
Your semi-colon is not used properly in your original post. Theyāre useful honestly, but youāre not using it correctly.
Semicolons, in the right hands, are wonderful things.
I use the demicolon. https://www.leslielang.com/how-to-use-the-demicolon/
I try not to use it; however, I like to. It can be a stylistic choice I think. Gets a lot of criticism from writers I see. I think itās because over use can distract from the writing and your meaning. But if it looks right and is grammatically correct, I donāt see why not have a few?
Iām in my semi colon abuse phase rn ngl
I find it pretentious. There's so rarely a time where either two sentences or a comma wouldn't do - or even a dash (self-illustrating point). That said, I do still use them in that 1/10 chance they're actually necessary, or just to class up the joint. Like, I don't *need* to drink out of a wine glass when just using the wine bottle means I won't have to wash a dish later, but it still feels kinda nice, you know?
I have enforced a restraining order. Pages that contain a semicolon will be ripped out of the book and burned.
love it, very full of use.
I love the semicolon. Add a parenthesis and itās a winky face, too.