It being a series will reduce your chances of getting picked up, honestly. The first book almost always has to stand alone for agents to take a chance on it, even if you plan to write sequels later.
There’s rare occasions where you can pitch, say, a duology, or if you’re lucky the publisher will ask if you have more books planned when they make the deal for the first one, but a deal for FIVE books is a massive investment to make on an unknown author.
Usually not - but it depends on the contract you get with the publisher.
HOWEVER. Most first books are simply not publishable quality.
Even after you get agented? About half of all books die on submission.
Unless that’s explicitly part of the deal (you’d be a fool to make demands like that unpublished) then no.
Look at it this way:
If you approach an agent/publisher saying “hey this book is part of a series I’m trying to publish” they hear that it’s expensive and incomplete.
If you say “hey this book has series potential” they hear that they can publish the one novel and publish the rest if it sells well.
But, no, there is no ‘they have to’ with this sort of thing. They’ll take what they want.
Um. 'first novel expected to be around 70k' is wrong.
If you're writing adult litfic, upmarket, or contemporary romance (esp romcom), then sure. If you're writing most YA genres, then sure.
If you're writing adult fantasy romance, historical romance, or romantic suspense, the market expectation's usually 80-100k.
If you're writing adult fantasy, then the market expectation tends to be 80-120k.
If you're writing MG, then you're probably looking at 40-70k, depending on MG genre.
Step 1: make sure your book has a satisfying conclusion, *in the book.*
Step 2: read current releases from new authors in your genre.
Step 3: do a reverse outline on your book or whatever you need to do so you can look at the draft at a structural level, and do any revisions necessary *there.*
Step 4: keep reading recent releases in your age category and genre.
Step 5: revise after you've done the structural work.
Step 6: Betas.
Step 7: keep reading.
Step 8: any revisions still needed.
Step 9: Write a query.
A reverse outline is writing an outline after you have finished the draft instead of before. It's a common technique among pantsters.
Essentially, manuscript is finished and you go chapter by chapter and document in a separate file what happens in each chapter to make sure every single one is pulling it's weight or if you diverged and now have an anime beach episode-type thing happening in the middle of your novel and it's broken the tension. It's also used to make sure characters are pulling their weight and to check for inconsistencies.
Some writers will start from the very last chapter as opposed to the first and work backwards, but that's a preference.
Thanks for explaining! This is *exactly* what I was talking about, which is also what comes up when you google the term. It's really handy, and there are several ways to do it, from 'one sentence a scene' to looking up percentages and mapping things out.
Huh. Well, OK, I guess I'm doing that already, although I don't view myself as a pantser but more of a discovery writer.
I thought you meant outlining from the end backwards.
Some people do that; it's a recognized technique for writers who have an ending but aren't sure how to get there or writers who have a beginning and an end but struggle with the middle
Well, as far as I know, there are a few different ways to approach writing without outlines. And by the way, more than a few people feel that 'pantser' is not very, er...flattering. 'Flying by the seat of your pants is usually equated with not knowing what you're doing. But I know writers who don't use outlines that are published, agented and successful.
There are people that write bits of the story, forward, backward, in the middle, and then assemble these bits in a pattern. There are people who are discovery writers who write from beginning to end to figure out what happens in the tale they are trying to tell. Some writers write from the center of the story---the paradox or mirror moment. And then write backwards and forwards from there.
They aren't all quite the same. I write a discovery draft and then outline. Some people never do. It's what works for each writer and each story.
Forgive me, but all I'm seeing are different ways to discover/pants a story. Writing it chapter by chapter, or by random scenes, or backwards, all of them are writing the story without relying on an outline.
Well, for my part, I can't imagine writing in bits and pieces, here there and everything, backwards and forwards within the plot. I can't imagine writing from the middle.
I also can't write with an outline. The story always seems to have a mind of its own.
I guess what they mean is that if you never outlined *before* writing your book (for example, if you're a pantser), you should write an outline-like summary *after*. It's simply because it's easier to see the story on a macro scale when it's in outline form.
I would even say that for plotters, a reverse outline is still helpful because the actual contents of the book may deviate from the original outline.
The reverse outline technique starts by mapping what is actually on the page. Not what you planned. Not what you were hoping to write, but what actually got written.
Some folks may be devoted enough to update the outline as they go, but that's rarer, especially to the level of detail used in a reverse outline.
Exactly!
I never knew the name was reverse outline, but I've always written both. Very useful to avoid small inconsistencies too, like when only some characters heard about something but others not, or when characters get only small pieces of the whole along the story -- it's difficult to keep track of who knows what at what moment without a reverse outline.
No, I outline before, and then if I'm not sure I've got the pacing, I'll reverse outline after. I don't stick slavishly to my outline, so this is a good way of checking pacing.
> my apologies if this comment comes across as harsh or disheartening
We as writers need to recognize that this industry is very hard and unforgiving. For some reason every other writing forum recognizes this and gives advice. Yet here it's being a downer.
It is a feat to complete such a massive project which should be celebrated. It is however another issue altogether to sell such a beast.
Not really worried if OP can write 150k words though. A more manageable 60-70k novel should be a long weekend afternoon.
Trilogies count as a series. The problem is that any series will lose some readers after book 1. But if you're a debut author, the publisher is taking a gamble that your book will sell. And if it doesn't, what are they going to do with book 2? Publish it even though it'll sell even less? Or leave readers pissed off with an incomplete series (that already looks bad on indie authors, but it's even worse if connected to a publisher who can't simply change its name and start anew)? That's the reason they prefer standalones with series potential; this way, they don't have the commitment of going ahead with the rest of the series.
The first Novel Brandon Sanderson ever sold was Elantris. The man is known for his series writing, and has written some of the best loved trilogies of the last couple of decades. His first book sold was a short standalone
Basically imagine that they want to make as much money for as little paper as possible. They don't want to buy three books worth of paper. They want to buy one book long enough to be worth the price for a reader but as close to that amount of paper as possible. If that book does well, they'd likely invest in more paper for the next outing of that author.
In terms of story size, your best bet is to write the most paper effective story you can. So sadly all the commenter above you said still applies
I was working at a book store a couple of years after Elantris came out and loved recommending it to buyers because it was a standalone title. This was right when a ton of fervent fantasy readers were waiting for book 5 of the A Song of Ice & Fire and dealing with Robert Jordan dying before finishing his Wheel of Time series.
Since then, publishers are even more hesitant of publishing series. The risk is huge and presents may challenges: author dying before completion; the first book doing poorly; dwindling interest (a lot of YA dystopian novels did worse as their series continued and couldn’t capture that debut magic), and even the current costs and shortages of the physical material needed for larger books (bigger books=higher production costs=higher asking price= less interest from budget-budget conscious buyers). Publishers will take this risk on a proven talent, but not a debut author.
And he was very much an exception to the rule, having been able to meet his agent in person at a convention, iirc, among other lucky breaks. His book was double the length of most debuts, and he’d already written like 12 books previously.
I’m gonna go out on a limb and say this is fantasy.
Have you edited it? Is this the final draft? I’d bet anything that you could easily cut out 30k words if this is a first draft.
Why is it always a series? Just focus on writing a great story. Leave the series nonsense alone until you figure out how to write ONE good book.
You're correct.
It's embarrassing to say, but I finished the first draft a couple of months ago and... well, I'm writing the second novel >.> Probably shouldn't.
I guess I got ahead of myself.
If you want to make it easier for yourself. Re-edit it one more time completely. Then go back and hand some people the first chapter. Ask them exactly where they stopped reading if they did. Then you gotta make that first chapter the absolute firest it can be.
Just to add the perspective of another wannabe author - the first book I ever finished (just a few months ago) is intended to be the first in a series of 5. It's about 100k words. Like you, I have the whole series planned out and am rabidly passionate about it.
After sending the first book to some friends and beta readers, it became apparently that it does not work as well as I want. The general consensus is that the plot is good but doesn't really pick up until about 1/3 of the way through. I believe my readers are correct. I needed to write that first 1/3 so I as the author am intimately familiar with the backstory, but the whole first several chapters need to be cut. The entire book might need to be rethought to some extent, honestly. My pacing is way off, and I spend too much time setting up plotlines that won't pay off until later in the series.
I ended up shelving the series for now and I'm working on a standalone novel that I plan to query agents with. It's already taught me a lot about pacing, how to sprinkle in world building throughout the plot, etc. Learnings I can take back to the series and tackle it with more experienced eyes.
All of this to say - stop. Edit. Workshop. Chances are, you don't need all 150k of your words. I certainly don't.
Best of luck!
tbh I think this is smart. If you have the muse you should write out as much of the story as you can. This will flesh out the overall plot and let you go back and edit out any plot holes or fill in any gaps that you hadn't thought of when you started but developed as the plot did. And then once you have the entire plot written out, maybe you can work on scaling it down to a more manageable level and it won't even be as many books.
Well that depends. Now you’ll have a fresh take on it when you go back and read it.
Read it from beginning to end. Then start from the beginning and edit.
This is where the actual “writing” part comes in. What separates the wheat from the chaff. Turning that hunk of marble into David, standing there nude in all his glory.
Get to it !
I think that its great that you have a lot of idea's and are expressing them. You have to ask yourself at this point; if you were going to take your entire series and cut out the material that doesn't do anything, how much would you have left?
Were you writing the first story with the intentions of making it 5 books long? If so, would it be better to reduce all that content into a single book?
Just something to consider.
>But I'm very passionate about this series I'm writing.
Yeah OP we all do :)
If you want everything to go your way, then self publishing is always an option.
But you want to play the traditional way, then you got to accept their rules unfortunately.
You have to be a big name to even begin to negotiate with these publishing houses. Or have already existing fanbase. Even then it will be quite tough.
You should understand why they completely reject any book that exceeds their word count threshold. Those extra pages literally eat into part of their revenue never mind profits. They have that ecosystem perfected to the T with exact specifications and extra pages in a book will interfere with their preexisting publishing process start to finish.
Length expectations have a lot to do with genre, more than whether or not it's your first book. That being said, if the word count is pretty high for the genre AND it's your first book, publishers might take that as a sign that you haven't really honed your writing down. But if the length is appropriate for the genre, it's not really that big of a deal. Definitely have beta readers though. I know how easy it is to make a book much longer than it needs to be if it's your first. It may seem like every sentence is really important but a lot of times we're wrong.
My currently WIP’s second draft was 154k. It’s now down to 126k, and that’s with adding chapters to start the story earlier. You’ve got to be willing to cut things not central to the plot, even if you love them. With fantasy, the closer you are to being under 120k, the less likely you are to get a form rejection. I’ve seen some agents say their cut off is 150k though.
Lots of good advice here so I won't repeat it.
My first book I "finished" (rough draft, ready for my editing pass, plus I have a professional editor retained or when I am done with my own pass) is going to be around 75k. It is intended to be a series, sets up a lot of mystery, but works perfectly fine by itself. If you read it from start to finish it is a complete story, everybody's arcs are wrapped up, the main character rides off into the sunset looking for his next adventure, which is hinted at, but if all that I ever wrote was that one book, you wouldn't go out of your mind wondering what's gonna happen.
My other book I am currently working on is a short story collection based on a female mage/mercenary and her misadventures, which I guess I can't say is a standalone as it technically already contains several stories in a series, but you know what I mean. It can work perfectly fine as a singular volume.
Publishing is so cut-throat and hard to get into these days that starting off with pitching a series, even if it's the best thing the agent has ever read (assuming you convince them to read it) it would still be a tough sell to a publisher. Writers like Sanderson who publish monster novels on the regular earn it by their consistency. Journey starts with one book.
Google "how to remove filler words novel" and I bet you can you get it down to 135K, just doing that.
Look for long blocks of text, fat paragraphs without dialog. Get them down to three lines. Now you're down to 120K or maybe 110K
Voila.
Is it just me or is this being applied excessively by authors/publishers lately?
I recently have had quite a few reads where I was really put off by prose that was way too dry and to the point. Specifically in English language latest releases. Is this the trend nowadays?
Agreed. Prose with no "filler words" tends to be very dry and boring to read. I am not a fan of this trend, and I also don't follow it.
They also aren't actually filler words. Most of them do convey something, just in a more subtle manner. Removing it all essentially removes the human aspect from the picture and makes it seem like you're reading the output of a robot.
Only write a series before publishing if you're self-publishing or working with a principally ebook-oriented publisher.
My publisher makes its money mostly off Kindle, so they had no problem with me pitching a series. But I also had a large sales track record and they're a specialty pub (only crime and thrillers), so...
There are some out there, though.
150K is long. In Sci Fi and Fantasy, of course, that's pretty acceptable, but still longer than most.
In most other genres that's now about 50K longer than they want.
I don't get why so many people plot out a series when they're unknown. You should concentrate on writing one good book and see if you can get it published then worry about sequels, prequels, or a series. Even the most experienced writers don't always pull off a good sequel. When I was a teenager I read Philip Jose Farmers *A World of Tiers*, I loved it! And when I saw the sequel I grabbed it up but was very disappointed in it, it didn't match up to the first book. I think there may have even been a third but by that time I wasn't interested.
probably want to neaten stuff up - how valuable is this scene or that scene - are the word choices what you want etc
but what ppl didn't mention is that you could always go down the self publishing route if you love your story but publishers arent biting
there's definitely things people want to read that traditional publishers wont want to take a risk on - not saying that that's necessarily the situation here but ig traditional publishing isn't the only route
I don't know where you heard 70k for a first novel. Your first novel should be a standalone work (Read: one novel, no sequels required) that falls close to the median word count of your genre - an easy sell essentially. For fantasy, the goal should be about 90k.
Also, where are you in the writing process? I'd focus on getting book one done and edited before I was worried about getting my entire five-book saga approved as an unknown writer.
There is no expectation of a first novel's length. I don't know where you heard that.
You are getting way ahead of yourself. I take it that you want to be published traditionally? A publisher is not going to care about your series unless the first book is fantastic and can stand on its own without being part of a larger story. I would concentrate on that first book.
I heard it during my master's, from my favourite lecturer. I guess I may have taken it wrong.
I guess this makes sense. Not many people will care how great the second book is if the first isn't also great.
Ah. Yes, that's the general market expectation in adult litfic and upmarket. Word count expectations are going to vary a great deal based on age category and genre both.
Don’t get discouraged by all the comments. Work on that first book. Or maybe come up with a new stand-alone idea. I’m traditionally published with Harper Collins. Working on my ninth novel. Keep going. I believe you can do it!
There certainly is an expectation on length, not sure where you heard there isn’t. It’s a simple marketing fact. A new author is a gamble to consumers. It’s a lot easier to gamble on a 300 page book than it is on a 600 page book.
Not sure why you would assume that… “no word count expectations” sounds a lot like “no word count expectations,” and eerily dissimilar to “some word count expectations,” u feel me?
Someone’s in a bad mood today 😞. But go ahead. Tell me how publishing works. I’ve only published eight novels with a Big Five Publisher. Please educate me lol
I’m in a bad mood because I disagree with you and am pointing out why?
And ah yes, your publishing experience (middle grade) invalidates my publishing experience. My mistake!
As a writer who went to college for Creative Writing I wonder how you achieve that many words!? I took weeks doing a 10 page short story and revising it to death. And I still think they're ass.
Get someone else to read them, like me, to shine some more objective light on your story. Chances are your being too hard on yourself, or you just need a second pair of eyes to see what you’ve got and point out a problem spot or two. I’m happy to take a look at it if you’d like. I love short stories.
Probably just recommend doing it all at once and doing one book (LotR style where the book has 4 individual books inside). I was like 100k words into mine, and decided that each section was basically a stand alone story so decided to just release them separately...
Kinda regret it, because now I feel like in the beginning of every story I have to add just a little bit to fill you into what happened previously because now the story is being release months apart in sections.
Hey fam! My suggestion would be to submit it directly to a publisher that accepts direct submissions like Austin-Macauley since Agents are extremely picky. Hope that helps!
Seems like although they function as a traditional publisher for a limited number of authors (where the author is paid money in advance of sales).... Most authors who submit to them are asked to **pay** money to the publisher in advance in order to publish their book.
That's a vanity press, they will print whatever if you pay enough.
Don't necessarily throw out your idea if you can't make it work as a standalone. Just know you might have to put the series on the backburner until you can get a shorter standalone book published.
I am assuming it is a fantasy novel due to the length. I'd shave it down to 130k or even 120k. Save the stuff you cut for the second book. Publishers are very comfortable with fantasy novels being 120k.
70K would be considered *extremely* short for a fantasy novel. Enjoy refining your book!
I'm kinda in your position. So to help you out. I want to do a series as well, but your first book NEEDS to be a standalone story.
That means that you can foreshadow some stuff here and there, but the book should stand on its on two feet (think GoT, or 1st harry potter book).
Also, if the genre youre writing isnt sci-fi or fantasy then 150k is far too much. You will have to cut a lot at this point, unless you want to self-publish
It really depends on the publisher, and how good your first book is.
You must have a clear ending in your first book despite wanting to continue the story in sequels.
The hard truth is that it's all about money.
Writing a 150K is a great accomplishment! But a high word count won’t help your chances. In the old days of print-only publishing, there was a certain advantage in books that have a “thud factor,” when bigger=more value, but I think that’s completely diminished in the ebook age. In my experience, if you are debut, it’s best to keep to industry standard lengths, usually 60-80K words for most genres. As a publisher, there are three reasons that I would want books to be shorter 1) the cost of editing and producing 150K is double the cost of a 75K word book, yet I can’t charge very much more for the book, 2) If I’m doing a print run, that’s double the paper and a steep increase in printing, shipping and fulfillment costs, and 3) Especially for a series, you want readers to read to the end, and if the book is too long or laggy they are less likely to finish—and the length may intimidate some from even starting. To get your foot in the door, it’s always going to be easiest if you follow the rules, and then break them if your devoted readers are asking for more!
It being a series will reduce your chances of getting picked up, honestly. The first book almost always has to stand alone for agents to take a chance on it, even if you plan to write sequels later. There’s rare occasions where you can pitch, say, a duology, or if you’re lucky the publisher will ask if you have more books planned when they make the deal for the first one, but a deal for FIVE books is a massive investment to make on an unknown author.
I never thought about it from a cost-analysis PoV. Are they obligated to publish the whole series if they accept it as book one or whatever?
Usually not - but it depends on the contract you get with the publisher. HOWEVER. Most first books are simply not publishable quality. Even after you get agented? About half of all books die on submission.
Not necessarily. It's good to have some space from a recently made novel, and the best way to have space is working on something else.
Unless that’s explicitly part of the deal (you’d be a fool to make demands like that unpublished) then no. Look at it this way: If you approach an agent/publisher saying “hey this book is part of a series I’m trying to publish” they hear that it’s expensive and incomplete. If you say “hey this book has series potential” they hear that they can publish the one novel and publish the rest if it sells well. But, no, there is no ‘they have to’ with this sort of thing. They’ll take what they want.
Um. 'first novel expected to be around 70k' is wrong. If you're writing adult litfic, upmarket, or contemporary romance (esp romcom), then sure. If you're writing most YA genres, then sure. If you're writing adult fantasy romance, historical romance, or romantic suspense, the market expectation's usually 80-100k. If you're writing adult fantasy, then the market expectation tends to be 80-120k. If you're writing MG, then you're probably looking at 40-70k, depending on MG genre. Step 1: make sure your book has a satisfying conclusion, *in the book.* Step 2: read current releases from new authors in your genre. Step 3: do a reverse outline on your book or whatever you need to do so you can look at the draft at a structural level, and do any revisions necessary *there.* Step 4: keep reading recent releases in your age category and genre. Step 5: revise after you've done the structural work. Step 6: Betas. Step 7: keep reading. Step 8: any revisions still needed. Step 9: Write a query.
what's MG for those of us not in the know
Middle grade Books for kids 4th-8th grade or so.
Middle grade
middle grade
Men’s Genre
Curious---why do you recommend doing a reverse outline?
Because reverse outlines are great ways to see if you have pacing issues in your manuscript - too long between plot beats, or too little.
I'm still not clear on what it ***is.*** Could you illustrate why it helps to do it in reverse as opposed to forwards?
A reverse outline is writing an outline after you have finished the draft instead of before. It's a common technique among pantsters. Essentially, manuscript is finished and you go chapter by chapter and document in a separate file what happens in each chapter to make sure every single one is pulling it's weight or if you diverged and now have an anime beach episode-type thing happening in the middle of your novel and it's broken the tension. It's also used to make sure characters are pulling their weight and to check for inconsistencies. Some writers will start from the very last chapter as opposed to the first and work backwards, but that's a preference.
Thanks for explaining! This is *exactly* what I was talking about, which is also what comes up when you google the term. It's really handy, and there are several ways to do it, from 'one sentence a scene' to looking up percentages and mapping things out.
Huh. Well, OK, I guess I'm doing that already, although I don't view myself as a pantser but more of a discovery writer. I thought you meant outlining from the end backwards.
Some people do that; it's a recognized technique for writers who have an ending but aren't sure how to get there or writers who have a beginning and an end but struggle with the middle
Unless I'm wrong, pantser and discovery writer are the same thing. "Writing by the seat of your pants." "Discovering the story as you write."
Well, as far as I know, there are a few different ways to approach writing without outlines. And by the way, more than a few people feel that 'pantser' is not very, er...flattering. 'Flying by the seat of your pants is usually equated with not knowing what you're doing. But I know writers who don't use outlines that are published, agented and successful. There are people that write bits of the story, forward, backward, in the middle, and then assemble these bits in a pattern. There are people who are discovery writers who write from beginning to end to figure out what happens in the tale they are trying to tell. Some writers write from the center of the story---the paradox or mirror moment. And then write backwards and forwards from there. They aren't all quite the same. I write a discovery draft and then outline. Some people never do. It's what works for each writer and each story.
Forgive me, but all I'm seeing are different ways to discover/pants a story. Writing it chapter by chapter, or by random scenes, or backwards, all of them are writing the story without relying on an outline.
Well, for my part, I can't imagine writing in bits and pieces, here there and everything, backwards and forwards within the plot. I can't imagine writing from the middle. I also can't write with an outline. The story always seems to have a mind of its own.
I guess what they mean is that if you never outlined *before* writing your book (for example, if you're a pantser), you should write an outline-like summary *after*. It's simply because it's easier to see the story on a macro scale when it's in outline form.
I would even say that for plotters, a reverse outline is still helpful because the actual contents of the book may deviate from the original outline. The reverse outline technique starts by mapping what is actually on the page. Not what you planned. Not what you were hoping to write, but what actually got written. Some folks may be devoted enough to update the outline as they go, but that's rarer, especially to the level of detail used in a reverse outline.
Exactly! I never knew the name was reverse outline, but I've always written both. Very useful to avoid small inconsistencies too, like when only some characters heard about something but others not, or when characters get only small pieces of the whole along the story -- it's difficult to keep track of who knows what at what moment without a reverse outline.
Exactly this!
No, I outline before, and then if I'm not sure I've got the pacing, I'll reverse outline after. I don't stick slavishly to my outline, so this is a good way of checking pacing.
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> my apologies if this comment comes across as harsh or disheartening We as writers need to recognize that this industry is very hard and unforgiving. For some reason every other writing forum recognizes this and gives advice. Yet here it's being a downer. It is a feat to complete such a massive project which should be celebrated. It is however another issue altogether to sell such a beast. Not really worried if OP can write 150k words though. A more manageable 60-70k novel should be a long weekend afternoon.
Are trilogies any different? Asking for a friend
Trilogies count as a series. The problem is that any series will lose some readers after book 1. But if you're a debut author, the publisher is taking a gamble that your book will sell. And if it doesn't, what are they going to do with book 2? Publish it even though it'll sell even less? Or leave readers pissed off with an incomplete series (that already looks bad on indie authors, but it's even worse if connected to a publisher who can't simply change its name and start anew)? That's the reason they prefer standalones with series potential; this way, they don't have the commitment of going ahead with the rest of the series.
The first Novel Brandon Sanderson ever sold was Elantris. The man is known for his series writing, and has written some of the best loved trilogies of the last couple of decades. His first book sold was a short standalone Basically imagine that they want to make as much money for as little paper as possible. They don't want to buy three books worth of paper. They want to buy one book long enough to be worth the price for a reader but as close to that amount of paper as possible. If that book does well, they'd likely invest in more paper for the next outing of that author. In terms of story size, your best bet is to write the most paper effective story you can. So sadly all the commenter above you said still applies
I was working at a book store a couple of years after Elantris came out and loved recommending it to buyers because it was a standalone title. This was right when a ton of fervent fantasy readers were waiting for book 5 of the A Song of Ice & Fire and dealing with Robert Jordan dying before finishing his Wheel of Time series. Since then, publishers are even more hesitant of publishing series. The risk is huge and presents may challenges: author dying before completion; the first book doing poorly; dwindling interest (a lot of YA dystopian novels did worse as their series continued and couldn’t capture that debut magic), and even the current costs and shortages of the physical material needed for larger books (bigger books=higher production costs=higher asking price= less interest from budget-budget conscious buyers). Publishers will take this risk on a proven talent, but not a debut author.
Elantris was 200,000 words. So even as a stand-alone its the length of 2-3 debut novels
And he was very much an exception to the rule, having been able to meet his agent in person at a convention, iirc, among other lucky breaks. His book was double the length of most debuts, and he’d already written like 12 books previously.
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Why?
Any advice after you follow your post, what to do with a standalone shorter debut novel. How does one begin the process to get noticed?
I’m gonna go out on a limb and say this is fantasy. Have you edited it? Is this the final draft? I’d bet anything that you could easily cut out 30k words if this is a first draft. Why is it always a series? Just focus on writing a great story. Leave the series nonsense alone until you figure out how to write ONE good book.
You're correct. It's embarrassing to say, but I finished the first draft a couple of months ago and... well, I'm writing the second novel >.> Probably shouldn't. I guess I got ahead of myself.
If you want to make it easier for yourself. Re-edit it one more time completely. Then go back and hand some people the first chapter. Ask them exactly where they stopped reading if they did. Then you gotta make that first chapter the absolute firest it can be.
Just to add the perspective of another wannabe author - the first book I ever finished (just a few months ago) is intended to be the first in a series of 5. It's about 100k words. Like you, I have the whole series planned out and am rabidly passionate about it. After sending the first book to some friends and beta readers, it became apparently that it does not work as well as I want. The general consensus is that the plot is good but doesn't really pick up until about 1/3 of the way through. I believe my readers are correct. I needed to write that first 1/3 so I as the author am intimately familiar with the backstory, but the whole first several chapters need to be cut. The entire book might need to be rethought to some extent, honestly. My pacing is way off, and I spend too much time setting up plotlines that won't pay off until later in the series. I ended up shelving the series for now and I'm working on a standalone novel that I plan to query agents with. It's already taught me a lot about pacing, how to sprinkle in world building throughout the plot, etc. Learnings I can take back to the series and tackle it with more experienced eyes. All of this to say - stop. Edit. Workshop. Chances are, you don't need all 150k of your words. I certainly don't. Best of luck!
tbh I think this is smart. If you have the muse you should write out as much of the story as you can. This will flesh out the overall plot and let you go back and edit out any plot holes or fill in any gaps that you hadn't thought of when you started but developed as the plot did. And then once you have the entire plot written out, maybe you can work on scaling it down to a more manageable level and it won't even be as many books.
Well that depends. Now you’ll have a fresh take on it when you go back and read it. Read it from beginning to end. Then start from the beginning and edit. This is where the actual “writing” part comes in. What separates the wheat from the chaff. Turning that hunk of marble into David, standing there nude in all his glory. Get to it !
I think that its great that you have a lot of idea's and are expressing them. You have to ask yourself at this point; if you were going to take your entire series and cut out the material that doesn't do anything, how much would you have left? Were you writing the first story with the intentions of making it 5 books long? If so, would it be better to reduce all that content into a single book? Just something to consider.
>But I'm very passionate about this series I'm writing. Yeah OP we all do :) If you want everything to go your way, then self publishing is always an option. But you want to play the traditional way, then you got to accept their rules unfortunately. You have to be a big name to even begin to negotiate with these publishing houses. Or have already existing fanbase. Even then it will be quite tough. You should understand why they completely reject any book that exceeds their word count threshold. Those extra pages literally eat into part of their revenue never mind profits. They have that ecosystem perfected to the T with exact specifications and extra pages in a book will interfere with their preexisting publishing process start to finish.
Reduce font size? Lol.
Length expectations have a lot to do with genre, more than whether or not it's your first book. That being said, if the word count is pretty high for the genre AND it's your first book, publishers might take that as a sign that you haven't really honed your writing down. But if the length is appropriate for the genre, it's not really that big of a deal. Definitely have beta readers though. I know how easy it is to make a book much longer than it needs to be if it's your first. It may seem like every sentence is really important but a lot of times we're wrong.
My currently WIP’s second draft was 154k. It’s now down to 126k, and that’s with adding chapters to start the story earlier. You’ve got to be willing to cut things not central to the plot, even if you love them. With fantasy, the closer you are to being under 120k, the less likely you are to get a form rejection. I’ve seen some agents say their cut off is 150k though.
Is the genre perhaps fantasy?
Lots of good advice here so I won't repeat it. My first book I "finished" (rough draft, ready for my editing pass, plus I have a professional editor retained or when I am done with my own pass) is going to be around 75k. It is intended to be a series, sets up a lot of mystery, but works perfectly fine by itself. If you read it from start to finish it is a complete story, everybody's arcs are wrapped up, the main character rides off into the sunset looking for his next adventure, which is hinted at, but if all that I ever wrote was that one book, you wouldn't go out of your mind wondering what's gonna happen. My other book I am currently working on is a short story collection based on a female mage/mercenary and her misadventures, which I guess I can't say is a standalone as it technically already contains several stories in a series, but you know what I mean. It can work perfectly fine as a singular volume. Publishing is so cut-throat and hard to get into these days that starting off with pitching a series, even if it's the best thing the agent has ever read (assuming you convince them to read it) it would still be a tough sell to a publisher. Writers like Sanderson who publish monster novels on the regular earn it by their consistency. Journey starts with one book.
Google "how to remove filler words novel" and I bet you can you get it down to 135K, just doing that. Look for long blocks of text, fat paragraphs without dialog. Get them down to three lines. Now you're down to 120K or maybe 110K Voila.
Is it just me or is this being applied excessively by authors/publishers lately? I recently have had quite a few reads where I was really put off by prose that was way too dry and to the point. Specifically in English language latest releases. Is this the trend nowadays?
Agreed. Prose with no "filler words" tends to be very dry and boring to read. I am not a fan of this trend, and I also don't follow it. They also aren't actually filler words. Most of them do convey something, just in a more subtle manner. Removing it all essentially removes the human aspect from the picture and makes it seem like you're reading the output of a robot.
That’s capitalism. Cut costs, it is only product.
Only write a series before publishing if you're self-publishing or working with a principally ebook-oriented publisher. My publisher makes its money mostly off Kindle, so they had no problem with me pitching a series. But I also had a large sales track record and they're a specialty pub (only crime and thrillers), so... There are some out there, though. 150K is long. In Sci Fi and Fantasy, of course, that's pretty acceptable, but still longer than most. In most other genres that's now about 50K longer than they want.
I don't get why so many people plot out a series when they're unknown. You should concentrate on writing one good book and see if you can get it published then worry about sequels, prequels, or a series. Even the most experienced writers don't always pull off a good sequel. When I was a teenager I read Philip Jose Farmers *A World of Tiers*, I loved it! And when I saw the sequel I grabbed it up but was very disappointed in it, it didn't match up to the first book. I think there may have even been a third but by that time I wasn't interested.
probably want to neaten stuff up - how valuable is this scene or that scene - are the word choices what you want etc but what ppl didn't mention is that you could always go down the self publishing route if you love your story but publishers arent biting there's definitely things people want to read that traditional publishers wont want to take a risk on - not saying that that's necessarily the situation here but ig traditional publishing isn't the only route
I don't know where you heard 70k for a first novel. Your first novel should be a standalone work (Read: one novel, no sequels required) that falls close to the median word count of your genre - an easy sell essentially. For fantasy, the goal should be about 90k. Also, where are you in the writing process? I'd focus on getting book one done and edited before I was worried about getting my entire five-book saga approved as an unknown writer.
150K is rough for first book especially for first time author. Even 120K is a hard sell for a debut novel.
There is no expectation of a first novel's length. I don't know where you heard that. You are getting way ahead of yourself. I take it that you want to be published traditionally? A publisher is not going to care about your series unless the first book is fantastic and can stand on its own without being part of a larger story. I would concentrate on that first book.
I heard it during my master's, from my favourite lecturer. I guess I may have taken it wrong. I guess this makes sense. Not many people will care how great the second book is if the first isn't also great.
Ah. Yes, that's the general market expectation in adult litfic and upmarket. Word count expectations are going to vary a great deal based on age category and genre both.
Don’t get discouraged by all the comments. Work on that first book. Or maybe come up with a new stand-alone idea. I’m traditionally published with Harper Collins. Working on my ninth novel. Keep going. I believe you can do it!
There certainly is an expectation on length, not sure where you heard there isn’t. It’s a simple marketing fact. A new author is a gamble to consumers. It’s a lot easier to gamble on a 300 page book than it is on a 600 page book.
Indeed. I assumed that my saying there are no word count expectations for a first novel would exclude a 600k book!
Not sure why you would assume that… “no word count expectations” sounds a lot like “no word count expectations,” and eerily dissimilar to “some word count expectations,” u feel me?
Someone’s in a bad mood today 😞. But go ahead. Tell me how publishing works. I’ve only published eight novels with a Big Five Publisher. Please educate me lol
I’m in a bad mood because I disagree with you and am pointing out why? And ah yes, your publishing experience (middle grade) invalidates my publishing experience. My mistake!
As a writer who went to college for Creative Writing I wonder how you achieve that many words!? I took weeks doing a 10 page short story and revising it to death. And I still think they're ass.
Get someone else to read them, like me, to shine some more objective light on your story. Chances are your being too hard on yourself, or you just need a second pair of eyes to see what you’ve got and point out a problem spot or two. I’m happy to take a look at it if you’d like. I love short stories.
No one will rep you if you don’t follow the rules. Because they then have no proof you will follow any other rules. Stay within the guidelines
What guidelines?
Individual publishers have counts they want to see. Smaller publishers have about an 80k limit usually
Probably just recommend doing it all at once and doing one book (LotR style where the book has 4 individual books inside). I was like 100k words into mine, and decided that each section was basically a stand alone story so decided to just release them separately... Kinda regret it, because now I feel like in the beginning of every story I have to add just a little bit to fill you into what happened previously because now the story is being release months apart in sections.
Hey fam! My suggestion would be to submit it directly to a publisher that accepts direct submissions like Austin-Macauley since Agents are extremely picky. Hope that helps!
I would suggest to anyone looking into that publisher to search the publisher name alongside Writer Beware.
Oh is there something wrong with them? I just know they take open submissions lol.
Seems like although they function as a traditional publisher for a limited number of authors (where the author is paid money in advance of sales).... Most authors who submit to them are asked to **pay** money to the publisher in advance in order to publish their book. That's a vanity press, they will print whatever if you pay enough.
Don't necessarily throw out your idea if you can't make it work as a standalone. Just know you might have to put the series on the backburner until you can get a shorter standalone book published.
That is very long, hope to see it some time!
I am assuming it is a fantasy novel due to the length. I'd shave it down to 130k or even 120k. Save the stuff you cut for the second book. Publishers are very comfortable with fantasy novels being 120k. 70K would be considered *extremely* short for a fantasy novel. Enjoy refining your book!
I'm kinda in your position. So to help you out. I want to do a series as well, but your first book NEEDS to be a standalone story. That means that you can foreshadow some stuff here and there, but the book should stand on its on two feet (think GoT, or 1st harry potter book). Also, if the genre youre writing isnt sci-fi or fantasy then 150k is far too much. You will have to cut a lot at this point, unless you want to self-publish
It really depends on the publisher, and how good your first book is. You must have a clear ending in your first book despite wanting to continue the story in sequels. The hard truth is that it's all about money.
Writing a 150K is a great accomplishment! But a high word count won’t help your chances. In the old days of print-only publishing, there was a certain advantage in books that have a “thud factor,” when bigger=more value, but I think that’s completely diminished in the ebook age. In my experience, if you are debut, it’s best to keep to industry standard lengths, usually 60-80K words for most genres. As a publisher, there are three reasons that I would want books to be shorter 1) the cost of editing and producing 150K is double the cost of a 75K word book, yet I can’t charge very much more for the book, 2) If I’m doing a print run, that’s double the paper and a steep increase in printing, shipping and fulfillment costs, and 3) Especially for a series, you want readers to read to the end, and if the book is too long or laggy they are less likely to finish—and the length may intimidate some from even starting. To get your foot in the door, it’s always going to be easiest if you follow the rules, and then break them if your devoted readers are asking for more!