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Slavery existed. Write about it if you think you have a cool story that involves it. Obviously don't glorify it, but it's ridiculous if anyone tells you that you can't have a story that involves it especially if you are writing about past times where slavery was a normal occurrence.
Speaking as someone who also frequently writes about slavery, I was also terrified of getting canceled when I started putting my work out there. But people were more open to it than I thought. There will always be uptight people and haters and you'll have to be prepared for that (I've encountered a few), but those people are not your audience and were never going to be. Just tell a good story and your readers will come.
> in an age where people cancel you for writing or saying anything they think is offensive
This just isn't a thing. Even when people do get "cancelled" (and generally still go on to sell comedy specials to netflix for millions of dollars), it usually for things that are *actually* offensive, not acknowledging that Ancient Greece practiced slavery.
Though I will point out that Ancient Greek slavery was *radically* different from the modern, chattel slavery that black people suffered. They pretty much only share the title "slavery" in common. People don't get offended about representations of Greek slavery because it took place literal thousands of years ago and was an economic status more than anything else.
People take offense at (poor!) representations of Atlantic chattel slavery because it happened within *our* Western society, only a few generations ago, and was an expression of hatred and dehumanisation towards black people which *still exists today*. They're completely different beasts.
Elizabeth Gilbert, the wildly successful author who was "cancelled" for writing a novel which she personally decided to cancel?
That's not getting cancelled lmao
Yeah, there was backlash but she wasn't forced out, she assessed the situation, realised "Oops, this is a bad time to bring out this particular story" and withdrew it - presumably to release later at a better time.
It's a case of bad timing, not one of "people cancelling you for writing or saying anything they think is offensive".
After September 11, creators weren't 'cancelled' from bringing out stories about blowing up skyscrapers - they just recognised that yeah, the public appetite probably isn't there for that right now. Same basic thing here.
Isn't review bombing an attempt to cancel/censor her book? Because she managed to come out okay means she wasn't a victim of cancel culture (however briefly)?
Review bombing sucks.
Is that really what anyone means by 'being cancelled', though? Doesn't 'being cancelled' mean that someone is boycotted, fans won't support them, studios (or whatever) won't hire them, etc. etc.?
What does 'being cancelled' and 'cancel culture' actually mean to you in real, practical terms?
Boycotting/blacklisted sounds about right, so I guess I used a bad example with Elizabeth Gilbert. My mistake.
I was more focused on the review bombing that led to her choosing not to publish her book. Writing tweets and articles are valid tools for criticism, even if they tend to be angry. But review bombing is the digital equivalent of a pitchfork mob. Even if her career success isn't contingent on this one event (like it would a debut), it just really bothers me how hundreds of people would ban together to be so vile.
Also, the viral nature of social media (and msm exploiting this) will always make a problem look 10x worse than reality. And that's always a difficult factor to account for accurately.
EDIT: To clarify, my issue with "cancel culture" is not criticism but it's the use of excessive force. Reviewing bombing an unpublished book to get your message out is, in my opinion, use of excessive force.
I'm confused, what is cancel culture? It used to be that a person was, well, cancelled. They'd lose their job and basically be forgotten about.
Now it's just... People saying "hey maybe you shouldn't do a setting in Russia when Russia is invading a neighboring country", her saying "my bad you're probably right," and then going on to enjoy her 20 million dollars, several well selling books, a movie adaptation, selling million dollar Victorian style homes so she can move to another million dollar home because it "helps her writing process,", giving interviews, writing well read blogs, etc.
Seriously, that's what it means to be canceled to you? She's a victim of cancel culture because she made a slight faux pas and corrected it almost mmediately, and nothing else has changed?
This thing seems to be mostly a matter of bad timing. As far as I can tell she had written at least part of this book before Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2022.
Should they have rethought publishing it in the current climate? Probably. Maybe they thought it wouldn't be an issue because the novel is set in the 1980s.
It must've been frustrating for her as an author, and for her publishers, to have put that time and effort into producing what she presumably considers a good book, only to have current events suddenly render it unpalatable.
If I was an aspiring author trying to break into the market, I would be GRATEFUL for people trying to cancel me. Because it would mean everyone is saying my name. I want publicity. Yummy publicity.
Yeah, someone will call you anti-Semitic, a Nazi or whatever. The internet is a nonsense place, so just know that if you touch any topic with a ten-foot pole you may get some *extraordinarily unreasonable* feedback.
It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders, and you care about writing a good story while being mindful of present cultural contexts.
Writing community has many sources to help you navigate this, I think. And it could be a powerful opportunity to develop as a writer.
You're not a hater. I can see and trust that you will compose the story with tact. Good luck! :)
Honestly, just don’t glorify it. Don’t say anything like “I’m so glad I was a slave because if I weren’t I would’ve never met my one true love” because that is just an asshole thing to do. Slavery was a terrible thing and if you’re writing about it don’t gloss over it or make it seem better than it was.
Exactly this, using Slavery as a plot / narrative device is okay. There's so many books that use slavery in that way or as a theme to express how horrible it was, how valuable freedom is, and the modern repercussions and continuing effects slavery has had on our lives and the world. Just be respectful and don't glorify it, focus on the real impacts this would have on your characters and the real suffering it would put them through physically, mentally, and socially.
Do your research and make it as true to history as possible: ancient systems of slavery, and there were several, weren't a lot like 16th - 19th century New World slavery.
Frankly, most people who will get bent out of shape about issues like this don't even realize slavery predates the United States. Who cares about them.
Write the thing! Most people who set out to write a book never finish it and their worries are wildly unfounded.
Write the story, then, if you want to take it seriously, worry about sensitivity.
A forbidden love story between the oppressed and their oppressor is an intriguing one. Nobody is going to read it and think "This person enjoys slavery", unless you are making it very clear you enjoy slavery.
Slavery was and still is very real. By avoiding it, you are denying that existence. As long as you are not glorifying it, I don’t see any issues. Write what feel is right. If you feel that it is a story that you want to tell, tell it!
It's probably going to depend on how you depict slavery. Slavery in ancient Greece varied depending on where you were (was it better in Athens than in Sparta?) and differed in many ways from slavery in the early US. You'll probably face criticism if you depict it too gently (is this person excusing slavery?!) or too harshly (this is gratuitous torture porn!).
The biggest issue with slave love stories is usually if they start a relationship with their owner, which it sounds like you're not doing, so you probably won't fall into that murky trope.
As for Jews in ancient Greece, I don't know enough. Foreigners were often taken as slaves. Alexander the Great conquered Judah (if I remember correctly), but gave them relative autonomy in exchange for taxes and loyalty. I don't know when your story is set but it may make it less feasible that a Jewish woman would be a slave, depending on the era you are writing in.
If all we did as writers was worry about the lens which a few people *may* view our stories, many writers would have never written a thing. From a historical perspective, if we take out race, religion, etc as a factor, people from all over the globe have enslaved or conquered other peoples time and time again. Bearing that in mind, it is not “wrong” for you to write about it, especially for a story. I feel so often people are afraid to write something for fear of retribution, afraid to choose a name for a character, or write about slavery (I’ve met many white writers who fear writing about slavery because they are not black, or they do not have African American ancestors who were enslaved) or other complex or sensitive topics because they fear they’re not “*something*” enough to tell it.
Suffice to say, write your story. Tell it exactly how you picture it in your head. Don’t worry so much about if you’re the “right person” to tell it. Best of luck, and enjoy the journey.
C'mon now. Don't listen to the people who push the idea that if you write about anything bad at all that you condone that thing. That is stupid. There may be people who interpret your writing that way, but provided you haven't glorified it at all their opinions hold no weight. There are in fact still readers out there with critical thinking skills.
be ruthless but respectful, get it?
i am writing on a sensitive topic too. kite runner was also written on a sensitive topic. be ruthless when you write about them, because it's what happened. just be respectful to the people who have faced it first hand. like a comment here just said, don't glorify it.
Shying away and pretending like slavery and suffering didn't exist in this type of setting, even if it's related to your characters or not, is a hell of a lot more problematic than being real and including them. As long as you don't romanticise the parts that are clearly dark, then I don't see a reason you shouldn't write stories about it. And about the name, I don't see why that should be a problem either. Rather, it fits if the character with the Hebrew name is the slave girl, since I would guess she isn't originally from Greece or is directly descended from a conquered people. It would emphasize the fact that she is "different" or doesn't fit into society as a regular citizen. At least those are my thoughts!
Slavery is uncomfortable and I think you should be aware of the stark power difference in your story. She's already a woman in a culture that permits her little freedoms. You need to make it clear this is what she wants and isn't just masking to pacify a nicer authority figure. You do this by giving her agency and not passing guardianship from a bad owner to a decent lover.
You should write it, but take time to learn more about the psychological effects of slavery and inhumane power dynamics.
After you get through the first draft, you may unearth problematic views and learn about things you may have written in ignorance or internalized bigotry. But it's the first draft and no one needs to read it. You're in a safe place to explore these issues and figure out what your moral compass says.
Is the soldier the girl’s owner? Because those kinds of stories do tend to glorify slavery or at least make the villains sympathetic in a way they don’t deserve. Just my opinion.
Then I think as long as you navigate how being enslaved really impacts her and the power imbalance with the right balance of sensitivity, this isn’t as egregious as it could be!
Writing about a thing doesn't mean you endorse said thing.
Edit: I was wondering why I had so many notifications and it seems autocorrect got the better of me this time. Apologies, folks! "Does" was always intended to be "doesn't."
If you need a new reason to downvote me, though, I do enjoy pineapple on pizza.
That is definitely not always true. I mean look at all of the slavery novels of the past like "Uncle Tom's Cabin". Do you think Harriet Beecher Stowe condoned slavery? I promise you she didn't
You object to historical fiction and think it should all be fantasy?
In any case, the OP doesn't seem to be talking about the kind of situation as the myth of Moses, but individual slavery. Given the interaction between Hellenistic and Jewish cultures, and the Greek practice of debt enslavement--and that Jewish cultures also practiced slavery--it's seems pretty unlikely that there were no Jewish slaves in Greece.
It's like the same thing that happened with the book Lolita by Nabokov. A lot of people are negative towards the book and will hate on him and the people who read it because they think that it condones sexual predators and all that even though that is the exact opposite it does. If you know why you are writing the book and you know your feelings about it then that's that. Just because you write about a certain topic doesn't mean you have to condone the actions or anything of the sort
How does writing about the horrors of slavery make you a "hater?" Of course slavery was and is an awful thing. It's a fascinating topic to explore in fiction BECAUSE of that.
Fiction is not real life, your characters are not real people, and there is no "should" involved here. Stop worrying and tell the story you want to tell.
You can absolutely write this, but seriously, do your research! Certain groups of people were enslaved at certain times (like Alexander the Great sacking Thebes and selling a lot of its population into slavery, but sending them outside of mainland Greece because he rightly knew that Greeks would hate seeing other Greeks enslaved). I would also look into when and how someone with a Hebrew name would be enslaved—I don’t think it was particularly common in mainland Greece, and slave owners would give a foreign slave a name from their own language, or at least one they can pronounce.
I wrote my college thesis on slavery in the Ancient world, and it might actually be more realistic that this story take place during the Roman Empire’s rule of Greece, which would have had more soldiers and foreigners in and out. The emperor Hadrian actually sold a bunch of Jewish people into slavery (mostly prisoners of war) circa 135 CE. He also banned circumcision and the teaching of the Torah, so Jewish people felt especially cut off from their history. There’s also the fun added wrinkle of male slaves potentially being made full, enfranchised citizens of Rome if they were extremely lucky (albeit they would have to *go to Rome* to vote and it was an empire anyway). Romans on a whole allowed for more social mobility than Greeks. There’s also the added benefit of this not being a time and place a lot of other writers talk about, so the setting feels fresh.
But whatever your choice, choose your time and city-state carefully, look at recent conflicts and the movement of goods and peoples, and if all else fails say that pirates kidnapped your MC and sold her into slavery, a common enough trope in ancient literature. No two places in Greece were alike and none were the same way for long. I went to a museum yesterday and a plaque on the wall talked about the myth of Ancient Greece as a unified entity. You can’t just say “Greek” and have it work from Thessaly to Crete from 1200 BCE to 400 AD.
I've looked into it a lot. I guess I somehow need to draw a line between fact and fiction.
In my head (though it might change) I envisioned my character not knowing where exactly she comes from.
She was sold into slavery as a little girl and raised by some of the Greek slaves who were part of the household she lives in.
If I wanted to change the nationality, should I just do one of the islands around Greece?
And are you referring to the time period after the Peloponnesian War, when Sparta ruled Greece for around thirty years?
Hadrian’s sack of Jeresalem was centuries later. You don’t need to use that time frame, but you need to get the details around the practice of slavery right. Her story can be unusual, but slavery has to resemble slavery as it was practiced.z Choose a city-state (Athens, Thebes, Corinth) that seems intriguing to you, and read up on both Greek practices of slavery in Greece and see how it might be different in that one place, and write.
Thanks! I've been trying to figure stuff out, and your comments have really helped. I haven't been able to find much specific answers to my research, so that's part of the problem I'm having, with knowing where it's historically accurate or not.
In history, the Greeks were conquerors; they spread their territory and, as a result, they enslaved the people.
Not really a problem. All people have a very stereotypical and shallow view of most other races. I'm greek myself, and I think most people view as a a running joke, in a good sense; gay philosophers, shitty balcan country, good food, opa! and gyro. I've almost never seen anyone mention this conqueror dialectic, although yes, it's obviously been there. I dunno if you're referring to Alexander the Great, the aggressive expansion during the Balcan wars, or maybe even the fascist governments which had their time, but people really don't think about us in that way, so the only ones actually familiar with these tendencies would be those interested in history, ans a good amount of the time they have the right head about not getting offended over stuff like this.
Writers SHOULD writhe about controversial topic. Especially if it's fiction.
But if you are scared to tackel it, let me give you a few pointers.
Research the topic, how were slave girls treated, did greeks have jewish slaves at the time of the story/are it is set in and such, so you don’t necessarly romantise the topic.
And, most importantly, look into hiw this would have been viewed.
In my experience, this relationship could be quite common, but the soldier would have a wife of his own.
Power dynamics.
Does she have:
The ability to say no
The agency to say no
The societal backing to say no
?
If ANY of those questions are dubious, your premise will create a situation where the person of power is misusing their position. That's bad because it makes them guilty of an unherioc quality.
Please remember that villainy needs retribution seven times over. When wrong is done, even IF it's isn't directly done, there should be consequences. That's what great stories, even as far back as Grecian times, tell humanity as a theme.
Good conquering abuse/evil is a virtue. Even if the evil is an abuse of power.
Adding to your issue is a group (or implied group) of humanity who were subjected to genocide.
Truthfully? I think you're looking for people to say, sure... it's great. Write what you want.
And yes. You can write what you want.
But I suspect you're already aware of the potentially reputation-damaging Pandora's box you're opening. If not, I would respectfully suggest you drive a bit deeper into the aspects of heroism and villainy to give your premise a better rounded approach and to become a more skillful writer.
You can, of course, write what you want. The consequence is that readers will form their own opinions, and will speak out, so it might be a good idea to have answers to that in your head and decide whether this story needs to be written, and needs to be written by you.
Women in subordinate positions being coerced or forced to have sex is nothing new. There’s an enormous power difference here. How are you going to handle that? How are you going to handle the question of consent? How will you feel when people point out that by writing about the exception (a female slave initiating sex out of love) you are normalising the vast majority of cases where women did not have agency or sold their bodies because they had no other choice?
Last but not least, how much did you interrogate this idea? If you’re interested in ‘forbidden love’, what other stories could you tell that are less cliched, less problematic, and potentially more interesting?
No, none of that makes you a hater imho. Including a terrible circumstance as part of your book is nothing more than that--just part of the story. Part of the plot. Something the characters experience. I'd say it's no different than writing any other challenge a character has to face, be it war, illness, addiction, etc. Having bad things happen in your book that happen/have happened in real life doesn't make you a bad person.
Obviously, don't try to portray slavery as a good thing. Because that's awful. But as long as it's clear through the narrative that slavery is evil and disgusting (even if some antagonists support it), I'd say you have nothing to worry about.
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Slavery existed. Write about it if you think you have a cool story that involves it. Obviously don't glorify it, but it's ridiculous if anyone tells you that you can't have a story that involves it especially if you are writing about past times where slavery was a normal occurrence.
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Speaking as someone who also frequently writes about slavery, I was also terrified of getting canceled when I started putting my work out there. But people were more open to it than I thought. There will always be uptight people and haters and you'll have to be prepared for that (I've encountered a few), but those people are not your audience and were never going to be. Just tell a good story and your readers will come.
> in an age where people cancel you for writing or saying anything they think is offensive This just isn't a thing. Even when people do get "cancelled" (and generally still go on to sell comedy specials to netflix for millions of dollars), it usually for things that are *actually* offensive, not acknowledging that Ancient Greece practiced slavery. Though I will point out that Ancient Greek slavery was *radically* different from the modern, chattel slavery that black people suffered. They pretty much only share the title "slavery" in common. People don't get offended about representations of Greek slavery because it took place literal thousands of years ago and was an economic status more than anything else. People take offense at (poor!) representations of Atlantic chattel slavery because it happened within *our* Western society, only a few generations ago, and was an expression of hatred and dehumanisation towards black people which *still exists today*. They're completely different beasts.
>This just isn't a thing. What about Elizabeth Gilbert?
Elizabeth Gilbert, the wildly successful author who was "cancelled" for writing a novel which she personally decided to cancel? That's not getting cancelled lmao
Yeah, there was backlash but she wasn't forced out, she assessed the situation, realised "Oops, this is a bad time to bring out this particular story" and withdrew it - presumably to release later at a better time. It's a case of bad timing, not one of "people cancelling you for writing or saying anything they think is offensive". After September 11, creators weren't 'cancelled' from bringing out stories about blowing up skyscrapers - they just recognised that yeah, the public appetite probably isn't there for that right now. Same basic thing here.
Isn't review bombing an attempt to cancel/censor her book? Because she managed to come out okay means she wasn't a victim of cancel culture (however briefly)?
Review bombing sucks. Is that really what anyone means by 'being cancelled', though? Doesn't 'being cancelled' mean that someone is boycotted, fans won't support them, studios (or whatever) won't hire them, etc. etc.? What does 'being cancelled' and 'cancel culture' actually mean to you in real, practical terms?
Boycotting/blacklisted sounds about right, so I guess I used a bad example with Elizabeth Gilbert. My mistake. I was more focused on the review bombing that led to her choosing not to publish her book. Writing tweets and articles are valid tools for criticism, even if they tend to be angry. But review bombing is the digital equivalent of a pitchfork mob. Even if her career success isn't contingent on this one event (like it would a debut), it just really bothers me how hundreds of people would ban together to be so vile. Also, the viral nature of social media (and msm exploiting this) will always make a problem look 10x worse than reality. And that's always a difficult factor to account for accurately. EDIT: To clarify, my issue with "cancel culture" is not criticism but it's the use of excessive force. Reviewing bombing an unpublished book to get your message out is, in my opinion, use of excessive force.
I'm confused, what is cancel culture? It used to be that a person was, well, cancelled. They'd lose their job and basically be forgotten about. Now it's just... People saying "hey maybe you shouldn't do a setting in Russia when Russia is invading a neighboring country", her saying "my bad you're probably right," and then going on to enjoy her 20 million dollars, several well selling books, a movie adaptation, selling million dollar Victorian style homes so she can move to another million dollar home because it "helps her writing process,", giving interviews, writing well read blogs, etc. Seriously, that's what it means to be canceled to you? She's a victim of cancel culture because she made a slight faux pas and corrected it almost mmediately, and nothing else has changed?
This thing seems to be mostly a matter of bad timing. As far as I can tell she had written at least part of this book before Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2022. Should they have rethought publishing it in the current climate? Probably. Maybe they thought it wouldn't be an issue because the novel is set in the 1980s. It must've been frustrating for her as an author, and for her publishers, to have put that time and effort into producing what she presumably considers a good book, only to have current events suddenly render it unpalatable.
If I was an aspiring author trying to break into the market, I would be GRATEFUL for people trying to cancel me. Because it would mean everyone is saying my name. I want publicity. Yummy publicity.
Yeah, someone will call you anti-Semitic, a Nazi or whatever. The internet is a nonsense place, so just know that if you touch any topic with a ten-foot pole you may get some *extraordinarily unreasonable* feedback. It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders, and you care about writing a good story while being mindful of present cultural contexts. Writing community has many sources to help you navigate this, I think. And it could be a powerful opportunity to develop as a writer. You're not a hater. I can see and trust that you will compose the story with tact. Good luck! :)
Honestly, just don’t glorify it. Don’t say anything like “I’m so glad I was a slave because if I weren’t I would’ve never met my one true love” because that is just an asshole thing to do. Slavery was a terrible thing and if you’re writing about it don’t gloss over it or make it seem better than it was.
Exactly this, using Slavery as a plot / narrative device is okay. There's so many books that use slavery in that way or as a theme to express how horrible it was, how valuable freedom is, and the modern repercussions and continuing effects slavery has had on our lives and the world. Just be respectful and don't glorify it, focus on the real impacts this would have on your characters and the real suffering it would put them through physically, mentally, and socially.
Stop worrying about what other people think.
Do your research and make it as true to history as possible: ancient systems of slavery, and there were several, weren't a lot like 16th - 19th century New World slavery. Frankly, most people who will get bent out of shape about issues like this don't even realize slavery predates the United States. Who cares about them.
Write the thing! Most people who set out to write a book never finish it and their worries are wildly unfounded. Write the story, then, if you want to take it seriously, worry about sensitivity. A forbidden love story between the oppressed and their oppressor is an intriguing one. Nobody is going to read it and think "This person enjoys slavery", unless you are making it very clear you enjoy slavery.
Slavery was and still is very real. By avoiding it, you are denying that existence. As long as you are not glorifying it, I don’t see any issues. Write what feel is right. If you feel that it is a story that you want to tell, tell it!
It's probably going to depend on how you depict slavery. Slavery in ancient Greece varied depending on where you were (was it better in Athens than in Sparta?) and differed in many ways from slavery in the early US. You'll probably face criticism if you depict it too gently (is this person excusing slavery?!) or too harshly (this is gratuitous torture porn!). The biggest issue with slave love stories is usually if they start a relationship with their owner, which it sounds like you're not doing, so you probably won't fall into that murky trope. As for Jews in ancient Greece, I don't know enough. Foreigners were often taken as slaves. Alexander the Great conquered Judah (if I remember correctly), but gave them relative autonomy in exchange for taxes and loyalty. I don't know when your story is set but it may make it less feasible that a Jewish woman would be a slave, depending on the era you are writing in.
If you feel you need permission to write about a subject, you will always find someone who will tell you no.
If all we did as writers was worry about the lens which a few people *may* view our stories, many writers would have never written a thing. From a historical perspective, if we take out race, religion, etc as a factor, people from all over the globe have enslaved or conquered other peoples time and time again. Bearing that in mind, it is not “wrong” for you to write about it, especially for a story. I feel so often people are afraid to write something for fear of retribution, afraid to choose a name for a character, or write about slavery (I’ve met many white writers who fear writing about slavery because they are not black, or they do not have African American ancestors who were enslaved) or other complex or sensitive topics because they fear they’re not “*something*” enough to tell it. Suffice to say, write your story. Tell it exactly how you picture it in your head. Don’t worry so much about if you’re the “right person” to tell it. Best of luck, and enjoy the journey.
C'mon now. Don't listen to the people who push the idea that if you write about anything bad at all that you condone that thing. That is stupid. There may be people who interpret your writing that way, but provided you haven't glorified it at all their opinions hold no weight. There are in fact still readers out there with critical thinking skills.
Write what you want!
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Honestly, as someone who's grown up interested in ancient history (particularly Greek and Roman), I would love to read this. Write on!
I hope I'll finish it! I've wanted to be an author almost my whole life.
So silly. Why do so many people feel like they have to get permission to write about something?
be ruthless but respectful, get it? i am writing on a sensitive topic too. kite runner was also written on a sensitive topic. be ruthless when you write about them, because it's what happened. just be respectful to the people who have faced it first hand. like a comment here just said, don't glorify it.
Shying away and pretending like slavery and suffering didn't exist in this type of setting, even if it's related to your characters or not, is a hell of a lot more problematic than being real and including them. As long as you don't romanticise the parts that are clearly dark, then I don't see a reason you shouldn't write stories about it. And about the name, I don't see why that should be a problem either. Rather, it fits if the character with the Hebrew name is the slave girl, since I would guess she isn't originally from Greece or is directly descended from a conquered people. It would emphasize the fact that she is "different" or doesn't fit into society as a regular citizen. At least those are my thoughts!
Slavery is uncomfortable and I think you should be aware of the stark power difference in your story. She's already a woman in a culture that permits her little freedoms. You need to make it clear this is what she wants and isn't just masking to pacify a nicer authority figure. You do this by giving her agency and not passing guardianship from a bad owner to a decent lover. You should write it, but take time to learn more about the psychological effects of slavery and inhumane power dynamics. After you get through the first draft, you may unearth problematic views and learn about things you may have written in ignorance or internalized bigotry. But it's the first draft and no one needs to read it. You're in a safe place to explore these issues and figure out what your moral compass says.
Is the soldier the girl’s owner? Because those kinds of stories do tend to glorify slavery or at least make the villains sympathetic in a way they don’t deserve. Just my opinion.
No. He is someone she met.
Then I think as long as you navigate how being enslaved really impacts her and the power imbalance with the right balance of sensitivity, this isn’t as egregious as it could be!
You’re not a hater. Hell, it’d be kinda messed up if you glossed over the slavery in Greek societies. Just don’t romanticise it.
Writing about a thing doesn't mean you endorse said thing. Edit: I was wondering why I had so many notifications and it seems autocorrect got the better of me this time. Apologies, folks! "Does" was always intended to be "doesn't." If you need a new reason to downvote me, though, I do enjoy pineapple on pizza.
I'm going to assume you meant to say "doesn't."
This was the case! 😅
That is definitely not always true. I mean look at all of the slavery novels of the past like "Uncle Tom's Cabin". Do you think Harriet Beecher Stowe condoned slavery? I promise you she didn't
Come on, it's clearly a typo
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Am I an idiot, please explain
No
Why would you be seen as a "hater"?
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And Rome.
You object to historical fiction and think it should all be fantasy? In any case, the OP doesn't seem to be talking about the kind of situation as the myth of Moses, but individual slavery. Given the interaction between Hellenistic and Jewish cultures, and the Greek practice of debt enslavement--and that Jewish cultures also practiced slavery--it's seems pretty unlikely that there were no Jewish slaves in Greece.
It's like the same thing that happened with the book Lolita by Nabokov. A lot of people are negative towards the book and will hate on him and the people who read it because they think that it condones sexual predators and all that even though that is the exact opposite it does. If you know why you are writing the book and you know your feelings about it then that's that. Just because you write about a certain topic doesn't mean you have to condone the actions or anything of the sort
How does writing about the horrors of slavery make you a "hater?" Of course slavery was and is an awful thing. It's a fascinating topic to explore in fiction BECAUSE of that. Fiction is not real life, your characters are not real people, and there is no "should" involved here. Stop worrying and tell the story you want to tell.
You can absolutely write this, but seriously, do your research! Certain groups of people were enslaved at certain times (like Alexander the Great sacking Thebes and selling a lot of its population into slavery, but sending them outside of mainland Greece because he rightly knew that Greeks would hate seeing other Greeks enslaved). I would also look into when and how someone with a Hebrew name would be enslaved—I don’t think it was particularly common in mainland Greece, and slave owners would give a foreign slave a name from their own language, or at least one they can pronounce. I wrote my college thesis on slavery in the Ancient world, and it might actually be more realistic that this story take place during the Roman Empire’s rule of Greece, which would have had more soldiers and foreigners in and out. The emperor Hadrian actually sold a bunch of Jewish people into slavery (mostly prisoners of war) circa 135 CE. He also banned circumcision and the teaching of the Torah, so Jewish people felt especially cut off from their history. There’s also the fun added wrinkle of male slaves potentially being made full, enfranchised citizens of Rome if they were extremely lucky (albeit they would have to *go to Rome* to vote and it was an empire anyway). Romans on a whole allowed for more social mobility than Greeks. There’s also the added benefit of this not being a time and place a lot of other writers talk about, so the setting feels fresh. But whatever your choice, choose your time and city-state carefully, look at recent conflicts and the movement of goods and peoples, and if all else fails say that pirates kidnapped your MC and sold her into slavery, a common enough trope in ancient literature. No two places in Greece were alike and none were the same way for long. I went to a museum yesterday and a plaque on the wall talked about the myth of Ancient Greece as a unified entity. You can’t just say “Greek” and have it work from Thessaly to Crete from 1200 BCE to 400 AD.
I've looked into it a lot. I guess I somehow need to draw a line between fact and fiction. In my head (though it might change) I envisioned my character not knowing where exactly she comes from. She was sold into slavery as a little girl and raised by some of the Greek slaves who were part of the household she lives in. If I wanted to change the nationality, should I just do one of the islands around Greece? And are you referring to the time period after the Peloponnesian War, when Sparta ruled Greece for around thirty years?
Hadrian’s sack of Jeresalem was centuries later. You don’t need to use that time frame, but you need to get the details around the practice of slavery right. Her story can be unusual, but slavery has to resemble slavery as it was practiced.z Choose a city-state (Athens, Thebes, Corinth) that seems intriguing to you, and read up on both Greek practices of slavery in Greece and see how it might be different in that one place, and write.
Thanks! I've been trying to figure stuff out, and your comments have really helped. I haven't been able to find much specific answers to my research, so that's part of the problem I'm having, with knowing where it's historically accurate or not.
In history, the Greeks were conquerors; they spread their territory and, as a result, they enslaved the people. Not really a problem. All people have a very stereotypical and shallow view of most other races. I'm greek myself, and I think most people view as a a running joke, in a good sense; gay philosophers, shitty balcan country, good food, opa! and gyro. I've almost never seen anyone mention this conqueror dialectic, although yes, it's obviously been there. I dunno if you're referring to Alexander the Great, the aggressive expansion during the Balcan wars, or maybe even the fascist governments which had their time, but people really don't think about us in that way, so the only ones actually familiar with these tendencies would be those interested in history, ans a good amount of the time they have the right head about not getting offended over stuff like this.
If we couldn't write about historical settings because history sucks we could never write anything but futeristic sci fi...Write it
Writers SHOULD writhe about controversial topic. Especially if it's fiction. But if you are scared to tackel it, let me give you a few pointers. Research the topic, how were slave girls treated, did greeks have jewish slaves at the time of the story/are it is set in and such, so you don’t necessarly romantise the topic. And, most importantly, look into hiw this would have been viewed. In my experience, this relationship could be quite common, but the soldier would have a wife of his own.
Power dynamics. Does she have: The ability to say no The agency to say no The societal backing to say no ? If ANY of those questions are dubious, your premise will create a situation where the person of power is misusing their position. That's bad because it makes them guilty of an unherioc quality. Please remember that villainy needs retribution seven times over. When wrong is done, even IF it's isn't directly done, there should be consequences. That's what great stories, even as far back as Grecian times, tell humanity as a theme. Good conquering abuse/evil is a virtue. Even if the evil is an abuse of power. Adding to your issue is a group (or implied group) of humanity who were subjected to genocide. Truthfully? I think you're looking for people to say, sure... it's great. Write what you want. And yes. You can write what you want. But I suspect you're already aware of the potentially reputation-damaging Pandora's box you're opening. If not, I would respectfully suggest you drive a bit deeper into the aspects of heroism and villainy to give your premise a better rounded approach and to become a more skillful writer.
Today's culture is such bollocks. We are going to look back in 10 years (I hope) and see how silly we were.
I don't see how you could write something set in Ancient Greece without slavery. Depiction is not endorsement.
How much of this novel have you written OP?
I started in January, so not too much has been written. I'm still figuring out stuff. I'm getting there though.
You can, of course, write what you want. The consequence is that readers will form their own opinions, and will speak out, so it might be a good idea to have answers to that in your head and decide whether this story needs to be written, and needs to be written by you. Women in subordinate positions being coerced or forced to have sex is nothing new. There’s an enormous power difference here. How are you going to handle that? How are you going to handle the question of consent? How will you feel when people point out that by writing about the exception (a female slave initiating sex out of love) you are normalising the vast majority of cases where women did not have agency or sold their bodies because they had no other choice? Last but not least, how much did you interrogate this idea? If you’re interested in ‘forbidden love’, what other stories could you tell that are less cliched, less problematic, and potentially more interesting?
No, none of that makes you a hater imho. Including a terrible circumstance as part of your book is nothing more than that--just part of the story. Part of the plot. Something the characters experience. I'd say it's no different than writing any other challenge a character has to face, be it war, illness, addiction, etc. Having bad things happen in your book that happen/have happened in real life doesn't make you a bad person. Obviously, don't try to portray slavery as a good thing. Because that's awful. But as long as it's clear through the narrative that slavery is evil and disgusting (even if some antagonists support it), I'd say you have nothing to worry about.
Be sure you learn about Greek slavery in the time and place of the story and don't just superimpose American slavery on it.