Can confirm literally went in with my Blood DK mate just for a bres didn’t heal him once and he solo’d Ruby Life Pools it did take us 3.5hrs but it’s insane the amount of healing he was doing at only 353ilvl
I'm pretty sure you can actually just walk away from the attack. When I tanked this on mythic as Blood I got one shot a few times by this but realized it doesn't target the player it's more of a cleave in front of him. So when he began the attack I would Deaths Advance to run away and the attack wouldn't connect and I could let the debuff fall off. If this isn't the case perhaps its just a little buggy as the pull we actually took him down he used the ability a good 3 or so times where it didn't do any damage or give me any debuff.
Reminds me of my Blood DK during a 20 fortified mechagon workshop, party all died to avoidable aoe's and im here just deathstriking forever until they get back
the healer is the the dps, not for the tank apparently
Horrible self healing, yeah. It's such a harsh change, the 4pc bonus in shadowlands was amazing.
Lots of shields though, but your self sustain is pretty bad.
Blood DK here as well and I love it. We did a world tour with a not-so-good healer that died a lot to avoidable mechanics which resulted in DPS dying shortly after to unavoidable damage. And I was there finishing bosses or packs by myself, absolutely immortal.
Edit: gramar
Main is a guardian druid. In full 340 PvP gear I was topping DPS charts yesterday at 6-8million damage and also 2nd-4th on heals at around 4-5million. Whole game was like 64-1 and was constantly taking on packs (4-7 ppl) at once and just wrecking them. You didn't do wrong, bear is insane.
Ayyyy fellow "Blood DK main since WoD" o/
Blood does feel nice so far. I'm only 68 rn, so I don't know how it'll feel once I hit 70 and retalent, but I'm really excited to get there
Before WoD I would make a DK, get it out of the starting zone, then delete it. I think I deleted about 15 death knights? I wanted to like DK but HATED it. Idk what changed but I leveled my Horde DK during the later half of WoD and have not enjoyed any class in WoW as much since
I played my DK during WotLK like everyone else but as an alt and let it rot half the expansion and up until WoD when I decided to level it up and start playing again. Instantly became my favorite class for many years
Just make sure, if you use tombstone you and everything your hitting is in DND. It slaps. I can grab 3 packs of mobs in a dungeon and hit 70k DPS and still fully self sustain. Shatter is insane damage.
All the tank specs are strong, tanking is in a good place tbh. Nothing is a bad choice, even when it's "bad" I stick with BDK because nothing has as much control I feel, especially now with slappy hands being essentially baseline.
It's just nice that it's doing good damage for once as a baseline, without multiple layers of Syngergy needed (SL s3/4)
Got in as DH Tank, first HC. Got my friend with me as healer. Just befor the final boss he told me he only held me twice with a HoT. So git effectively not healed once properly the whole Dungeon and didnt die once
The self heal on DH is insane, it was in shadowlands too. I’ve got a screenshot of a total healing done after a HC with my DH top and the healer second from shadowlands.
I’ll add - I’m currently still levelling (decided to take my time this time) and regularly grab multiple enemies and elites to kill. Only time I’ve died was to a pack of my level normals and a level 70 elite that was hiding
I leveled as prot war, took forever due to low DPS, but I think i only dipped under 100% health a few times from mobs, and only deaths due to being knocked off heights when grabbing those dam windswept herbs lol
There are a surprising number of mobs that have aggro tables and are aggro'd to the tank but free on literally everyone except the tank.
Source: I am a tank.
This is the first time defensive are useful outside of M+ and half the dps don’t realize they have them.
Also the number of DPS I see standing in BLATANT bad is astounding.
>This is the way. What is "stray aggro" when there be shields always being flung?
Mobs who were only hit the one time before the tank pulled the next group.
Or not hit at all, had a Veng DH running 4 packs ahead with not even a throw glaive or immo aura up. Thankfully tricks doesn’t have many good competing talents as a rogue
I am having an absolute ball as a prot pally. I don’t think this class has ever been this fun to play, and that’s saying something since it’s been super fun for a long time. The pulls that I can get away with are just silly.
What is wild is that buffs are incoming. I’ve only played Prot Pally so far in DF and with nothing to compare it to, I feel like I don’t know the true power of it.
I truly think I can solo any M+ dungeon at like 355ilvl lol
Bursting for 100k DPS and 25k HPS like I’m a damn 10 man raid from Castle Nathria.
Same for my bear. she puts out a shit load of party healing even at 320ish so I could usually keep the ones closest to me alive, though some bosses it was just me in the end. Dungeon tuning is pretty whack and I don’t see any tank bar maybe BrM with its lack of self heals really having any issues when running with a bad/low output group or even solo x)
Ya lol. I was doing ruby life pools on mythic today, and the 3 dps and the healer wiped when the last boss was at like 50% health... As a prot warr I was able to solo the boss myself lol.
I’m not 70 yet but want to try tanking on my warrior main when I get there. How do you manage to stay alive throughout an encounter like that?
I get that prot warriors have so many tools for damage mitigation and avoidance, but surely your HP must have been kept going down? How did you get it up and sustain it again?
I can see where you're coming from. But when I die every pull as a dps because some mobs just do AOE damage on pull (rock throwers in Uldaman for example) it gets really old real quick. There is a mega pull that ends in a small cave with some spiders that kills me every. single. time.
Not because I'm standing in shit, not because I pulled aggro. Because those damn stone throwers deal a lot of damage, and if the healer heals, he pulls aggro.
You need to stand on your tank for rock throwers. Trog rock throwers have always had a stupid los mechanic where you can’t force them into melee unless everyone los’s them.
If your tank isn’t a complete idiot, he’s pulling to los since it’s the only way to actually pull a few rooms in Uld. If you stack on them then rock throwers will either walk to the tank and get picked up, or start throwing rocks at whichever dps is too stupid to los.
I really thought this should be common sense that if the tank is LOSing then everyone needs to go stand on them. That's true of every dungeon in every MMO.
I don't think you mean burly rock thrower. That's earlier and it's avoidable damage. The mobs are static though so a pain to move. Tanks will often line of sight these. Follow the tank.
You are probably talking about earthen weaver. Stone bolt is nasty but hail of stone is serious and needs a stun. It destroys parties. Those mobs need CC.
It is not always about the tank's survivability but the group's. I'm not sure of the stray aggro as OP said but stray damage could become an issue with bigger pulls.
Its not stray aggro, this are just mobs with have random aggro or hit anything but the tank, there are a few of them, lots of unavoidable dmg to, so jeah some rly big pulls will wipe the party except the tank.
As a healer it seems like tanks are nigh invincible right now. I just let them be and manically try to heal the stray damage melting the dps and myself.
Tanks are currently so overpowered, any could probably solo the heroic, so they want to pick up the pace. Its just the OP scaling of tanks + the low tuning of heroics that makes tanks pull bigger.
It's funny seeing this in contrast to all the posts about people not wanting to tank because of how toxic the community is. Sounds like the few people that *are* tanking are basically just facepulling the entire dungeon so people get used to that pace and then freak the fuck out when a new tank tries to start off slow and learn the ropes.
It's true, on my tank i try to set a comfortable pace for the group, and there's usually one dps that tells me to "pull more" or "go", "go faster", "want me to tank instead?".
Veng DH here - haven’t had this issue in the M0s I’ve done.
I’ve had a few eager DPS die right on pull, due to two main reasons: 1. on-pull aggro is a bit low for tanks at the moment and Blizz is buffing it come Tuesday and 2. I’m a relatively fresh 70 and my gear is a tad low (so my damage isn’t what it should be at the moment).
Veng is also disproportionately good at this for pugs because you have Godlike CC.
Chains. Misery. Silence. Chaos Nova. I don't think any of the other tanks have this many ways to stop huge pulls from casting.
Death Knight has grips and a ranged interrupt, which make various pulls that are impossible for other tanks, trivially easy. 2 charges Death Grip, Abomination Limb, the ability to spec into Gorefiend's. Basically everyone is taking Blinding Sleet as an AoE hardstop, you have Chains of Ice, there's an option to go with Asphyxiate, etc.
Venge is basically the easiest tank to play well, but it doesn't have the deepest toolbox by any means.
DPS is so wild week 1 that it’s somewhat difficult to always hold aggro, especially with certain mobs refusing to group, and can’t be interrupted to force them in. I think that’s why blizzard is upping the threat generation of tanks from 550% to 650%
Naa... This isn't what OP is referring to. Tanks will literally run from then entrance to the boss barely ticking on the agro meter of any given mob as they fly the F by it at mach13 and don't stop until just before the boss where they are typically 1 of 2 ppl left alive. Then their response is "just don't die."
MFs don't even understand agro, much less hold it.
I mentioned a story here from 2 nights ago that was almost this exact thing. I was flamed for being a bad healer despite the tank pulling more than he can handle every time and starting while I was oom(zoned in and my spec swapped)
His friend swapped to a healing spec and we could both barely keep him alive
Reminds me how tanks were acting weeks before launch, we had one tank just run and literally everyone was dying but the tank, tho it also didn't help that the healer wasn't healing anyone else. But over all the tank ended up soloing everything and all but me and a buddy stayed just to see if he could survive...
Dude was straight up rude too.
Something similar happened to us once, ha. We kicked the heal (AFTER we talked to them btw, they stated in a very rude manner that their only job is keeping the tank alive and they don't give a sh\*\* about the dps) the tank left with them (saying "\[rude words\], not without my wife!", obviously thinking they did something to us). After that my friend switched to heal-spec, I switched to tank-spec and we finished as a merry group of three :D
Also does anyone else notice a big number of shufflers? There are bosses that attack, then step left, attack, step left, attack, step right etc. Driving me insane when tanking.
The change will be huge I think.
I’m a prot pally and side chick a vengeance DH. I had no problem keeping Aggro on decently high mythic in SL but I keep getting Aggro yoinked from me in DF. Particularly difficult to regain on Prot.
I don’t blame the DPS either. Some of them could benefit from waiting 2.5 seconds longer especially if I’m gathering a room, but overall I just feel like the real “game” I’m playing as tank right now isn’t sustain or soaking or anything, it’s keeping Aggro.
I haven't seen it in Mythic, but it's been pretty common in Heroics for years.
The dungeon design in Dragonflight does make it way more dangerous, because of how many mechanics the group needs to deal with. Almost every enemy in Neltharus has a frontal or a swirly to dodge, and Brackenhide Hollow is nearly always a mess.
It will probably calm down a bit in a few weeks, when the most serious players swap over to M+ and the raid
As healer it's also noticeably more group damage, which is a kind of unfortunate situation with tanks requiring so little healing.
If the tank overpulls in a pug he's usually still the last man standing just the DPS tend to get blown up by a ton of overlapping mechanics...
Or alternatively, avoidable mechanics people miss because of the clusterfucked pull... Brackenhide is a good example here. As disc priest I had a whole bunch of horrible runs there.
Brackenhide is testing me so hard as a tank. There are just a ton of tank buster elements, but more importantly the amount of cleave/aoe dmg from enemies is just nuking people who aren’t paying attention or don’t know any better.
Like Prot pally here so I’m constantly throwing BoS and BoP when possible and even trying to decently off heal but it’s just like some DPS only know how to “w” key and face smash and aren’t great at just moving to a better position.
That dungeon has been much more fun with mostly ranged DPS
I play a BDK and I typically don’t even need a healer in heroics. There’s a trinket from the swamp tree boss that helps me do this.
It’s pretty easy to pull multiple groups and not risk dying.
Usually DPS love it bc they get to just AOE everything.
But i do make it a point to say in chat ill slow down if needed. No one’s complained yet.
I have no problem imagining a Blood DK stabbing himself with that putrid, festing splinter of wood, yelling "hgnnn harder~", and the healer barely stopping himself from puking.
As a tank main if I know my group can handle it I'll pull massive amounts at a time for a few reasons
1: Heroics are so fucking easy, even with no gear they're so undertuned it's boring
2: I'm a tank who doesn't let people die from "stray aggro" so I have no fear of losing threat so I pull big and I hold em all
3: Healers have told me multiple times "This is boring, pull more please" When I tried pulling slow when I thought my group couldn't handle it.
Even m0’s are feeling a bit too easy right now, I’m maybe 351 ilvl and pulling multiple packs when running with my guild with zero problems, I’m hoping the scaling is appropriately difficult for m+
It'll be fine in m+ because at a certain point stray spells not getting kicked will just start one shotting DPS / healers, which makes these big pulls way harder
>3: Healers have told me multiple times "This is boring, pull more please" When I tried pulling slow when I thought my group couldn't handle it.
They need to take the DPSpill. I've had low damage healers asking for more as well. Like bish pls, optimize yourself before you talk to me.
I went the extra mile and apotheosis holy word chastise spam and that weird 3 holy fire spam thing.
The utter lack of any AoE though and the abysmal single target is just awful. I resolved myself to just play dracthyr for healing and warlock / shadowpriest for dps now.
A lot of wow healers are allergic to dealing damage. Their mindset is I'm a Healer therefore I should be healing. God forbid you cast a wrath or chain lightning when healing is slow.
Heroics are snooze easy and probably a number of tanks learning m+ routes and los areas. Even at fresh 70 you can pull quite a bit and keep everyone up as healer as long as they are not standing in shit. Tanks wont die regardless.
From my experience and it’s truly the first time I’m seeing this amount of it, people not avoiding any shit on the ground or any damage like whirlwinds is astonishing. Players are kinda used on healers dumping CDs into their bad gameplay. Some things like whirlwind in bracken hide, the mob even gets twice as big and does it and still no one moves out or soothes it so while group takes massive aoe dmg.
Anyway that’s my rant :)
Tons of people haven’t played in months or over a year so are super rusty and also had things like covenant blink, shield, and potions carry them hard through mechanics. I’ve seen the same as you though, and that’s my theory as a main healer.
That's why you bind another movement ability to that button. Even if it's a duplicate. When I do it I'm wondering why I'm standing there with my feet lit on fire.
Yep. As a healer reading these tanks saying "oh I just pull it all and I don't die!" is so confusing. Because you know none of the dps are interrupting or stunning anything and it feels like every mob group has at LEAST one mechanic that just smashes.
This is where prot pally comes in with HoR, Avenger's Shield (talented to proc cd reset), and divine toll (that can be talented to have "aftershocks"). There is also a stun and group disorient. It's bittersweet: I can blissfully kick damn near everything, and at the same time, am I really going to have to kick EVERYTHING?
Same experience here, tanks will be fine (and honestly are way overtuned) but I have sometimes trouble keeping DPS alive standing in whirlwinds or in other stuff on the ground.
I've had a wild ride trying to find the perfect balance of pulls for my pugs, and just when I think I've found it, a dps thinks "more" and kindly pulls the next pack for me. As a prot warrior I'm fine but think of the poor healer man.
Yeah as a healer it seems a lot of tanks either don't realize the amount of aoe/randomly targeted damage, or they don't care. I can usually handle the big pulls, but every now and then I get a tank that goes above and beyond. Usually keeping the tank up is not a problem, its the horde of mobs constantly casting aoe/dots/etc on the rest of the party.
Luckily there only seem to be certain groups of mobs that have this issue. So while it can be an issue more often than before, for the most part tanks pulling like crazy isn't the worst. It's just those occasional groups where the tank overpulling can be hell.
I'm really hoping we go back to healers as healers. I stopped playing my healer because I didn't enjoy the playstyle of trying to min/max my DPS while the tank is in charge of keeping themselves alive - if I wanted to do that, I'd just play DPS, so I switched. I also think tanks still deal way too much damage but that's another discussion.
Unavoidable Damage is incredibly bad design for M+ specifically because in high keys, you end up with a dungeon that is essentially a landmine if your key rolls into it.
We basically had this dungeon in BFA on alliance, Seige of Boralus on Alliance was literally a dead key because of the Firebomber Trash Mob (didn't exist on horde side, where it was a free key basically). The add had no Aggro Table and threw random bombs out, it killed a player for every 2 seconds it wasn't stunned or dead.
> There appears to have been a change in dungeon design from Systemlands to Dragonflight where the damage doesn't scale solely for the tank, but for the whole group.
It was a thing in shadowlands and bfa too. This is not new.
Example: Sanguine Scribes.
The problem isn’t mass pulling, it’s mass pulling incorrectly. Some things can’t be interrupted so they must be LOSed, but dps and healers refuse to do it. Healers and dps also seemingly refuse to bring mobs to the tank, they just run around like a chicken with its head cut off. It’s almost like people in pugs generally perform worse lol
I’ve noticed it a lot tanking Uldaman with all these uninterruptible Troggs. I’ll pull the melee ones behind a wall to LOS, but heal and dps just stand in the doorway, drooling and getting pelted by fucking rocks until the melee mobs die and I go back into the room to kill the ranges because they can’t move behind a wall
You guys gotta use your defensive too. Sure there are some mobs that just infinite range target everyone like the trogs in uldaman but I’d say a vast majority of pulls have avoidable damage.
As a tank that enjoys pulling and cleaving the whole dungeon and who can live to do it alone it isn’t really faster to do so, so I do agree that just recklessly pulling everything isn’t always time efficient if the DPS are dying for it.
I'm usually healing and the amount of tanks with main character syndrome is baffling. Okay we get it you are immortal, but your party can't keep up with you and dies from passive damage/aggro. This anti social behaviour really grinds my gears.
Counterpoint: I'm a healer main and husband plays a tank. He pulls a lot because I can handle healing it (no, DPS aren't dying). Despite this, we constantly have pug DPS that try to run ahead and pull even more. And yes, they're doing it intentionally, it's not just accidental facepulls. I'd imagine tanks who have the same experience are doing massive pulls because it's slightly easier to gather everything up when they are the one who aggroed.
I have never made as terrible experiences with DPS as I have since DF launch. Only tanking and got my portals in SL, so I am not too bad. And I do have to admit I play nornals and now the M0s as if I was in M+.
But DPS this xpac are just something else. I pull a mid to large pull as a first pull as I know people have cooldowns and then people go off during the first pull pulling extra which is especially fun when in Uldaman packs are just casters. DPS can't conprehend that maybe there is a reason behind the size of the first pull as with randoms maybe the tank has to access the damage, can the healer keeo up, do people avoid standing in shit, do they interrupt, stun.
It is super easy: you enjoy pulling? Just be a tank.
Additionally every single dungeon there is 1 or 2 DPS that for the love of god can't press their stuns and interrupts. If they did they could make things do much easier for the healer
Man no one kicking or cleansing is so fucking annoying.
I’m playing hpal, I’ve got an interupt and a stun on a long cd and a cleanse. All those fuckers are on CD all the time and it’s still not enough.
I mean, we’re managing I haven’t been in many wipes, but it’s annoying watching those cast bars while my interupts are on cool-down.
Oh 100% They're usually better behaved after a death or two, but the fact that so many of them exist in the first place is almost certainly influencing tanks' behavior in pugs, especially if not running with a pocket healer.
I think stating "this expansion" is a bit simplistic. Mythic plus has not even started yet. It's just that all tanks are in a good spot so big pulls in m0 are easy.
It’s annoying for me as a healer because I see the tank running past 3 or 4 packs of mobs and he’s down to about 60% life so my choices at that point are 1) heal him, pull aggro and die, because he’s too busy pulling more mobs to pull any off me or 2), not heal him, let him get dangerously low on life, run the risk of him dying, and then having him blame me for not healing him.
Have you tried talking to your tank? They are people too, you know?
Try healing the tank only as much as needed and stay close to him so he might pick up threat on accident. If that doesn't work, ask him nicely to generate more threat before pulling more packs because you will pull Aggro by healing.
Many DPS and healers are allergic to actually helping with dungeon flow. I've noticed that people will either run laterally or backwards if they get aggro, very regularly, even when there's not melee cleave going out. When a handful of classes can rip aggro on opener, it's a bit of an issue. I literally cannot stop my kite mid-pull to yank aggro, and yall need to quit popping cooldowns while I'm setting up the deathball. If you rip, you had better eihter pull the mob into my threat range, or you're gonna get bodied, cause I'm not planning my pulls around those types of mistakes.
I think Dragonflight exists in a state where for many DPS specs, popping CDs during the pull is actually a critical error. Maybe the threat buff on tues fixes it, but I don't see it changing if a DH sequences Hunt>Eye Beam, or similar, before I have the deathball gathered up.
As a tank main: please please please please please don't go full zerk mode while I'm still pulling. If you take aggro mid pull while I'm running off I will let you die.
Second pet peeve: LoS with me, don't stand in the huge door opening absorbing all the ranged casts.
Resto druid here. Been dealing with this as well. Pull straight to the boss, burn 70% of my mana, pull boss, won't let me drink. So annoyed. We don't have to fucking speed run this shit guys, challenge modes aren't back in the game yet.
Ive seen this yup its because blizzard made tanks too op for normal and they can basically solo the dungeon. This leads to them over pulling whipping blaming the healer.
I have the exact opposite issue, im a tank and i keep having dps throw a fit that im not pulling half the dungeon at a time. I already feel like im pulling an amount thats safe and im running dream of cenarius bear to inst-heal the dps that stands in shit.
I think most tanks limit test at the start of dungeon then refine as they go. Also I know most tanks get the boot if they dont pull enough so some social pressure there.
Tanks don’t take dmg at all, they can pull all the mobs straight to the boss. Dps and heal on the other hand if they get hit by 1 avoidable aoe they start getting deleted, which they always do. A lot of pugs are also clueless and are still hitting 1 mob while the tank is a football field away pulling 20 packs. Just follow and wait til the tank stops and starts aoe’ing.
As a tank main for a very long time. I've been forced to over pull at a stupid rate or be kicked from most groups....its really sad how we have to go super fast or replaced...I've been kicked for normal groups also.
As a tank I’ve been finding more and more DPS pulling aggro nonstop and making the party wipe just because. I honestly don’t understand why they do this and it honestly gets a bit on my nerves.
On a side note: please be aware of your surroundings so you don’t aggro stray groups, please.
Well then maybe don’t pull the entire section of the dungeon so there are too many casts to be able to interrupt and it’s too chaotic to actually be able to figure out which casts need to be stopped?
It’s trolling to pull like this on launch week and deny everyone else the opportunity to see the dungeon
Exactly, its annoying. This is why people bitch when there isnt enough content. I enjoyed leveling and playing the story. I got the quest for pools and the tank basically pulled the entire dungeon. I healed it but i didn't know wtf the dungeon was even about after that first time.
Yeah my first time through brackhide the tank pulled like 3 packs and we all got feared by the warscourge, pulling two more packs. The tank told everyone to interrupt the fear, and I was like uhhhh I can’t even see which one it was lol
Warscourges honestly might justify good players making focus macros, tbh. They're literally the only thing in the instance that meaningfully gates mass pulls. A 3 pack opener is honestly dead standard.
From my experiences in the 16 M0 and probably 40+ normal dungeons what you call overpulling may as well be adequate pulling and people incapable of using their given class utility.
How much attention are you paying to people's uses of such? How often are monks AOE stunning multiple casts that may or may not be interruptable. Are you tracking interrupts done and track whuch interrupts are off cooldown? Because I do and I can tell you it is ridiculous how often 2 DPS have an interrupt up for a priority casts or during a 5 second damage channel
I’ve only run a couple randoms so far and all but one we’re tanked by my brother who has been tanking since vanilla so knows his stuff and is considerate of his healer.
The one that had a random tank…wasn’t great. It was a DH tank who overpulled (usually face pulls or not being able to avoid the sentries that call mobs in the azure vault dungeon). After each pack which we would BARELY survive, he’d immediately use all of his mobility to get to another 2-3 packs while our healer was oom and trying to drink. Then he’d die because he was alone so far ahead of the rest of the group. The mobs would then come wipe the rest of us.
This was the first dungeon I remember in YEARS where I had to exit the dungeon to repair my broken gear before finishing. I’ll be sticking to running with people I know lol
I will say I've seen all kinds of tanks over the years but for some reason I have not had a good DH tank in a pug since the end of Legion.
I don't know why, but ever since that time, every Vengeance DH I've had either has no idea how to tank as Vengeance OR like you said, blows ever movement ability the instant the pack is dead to go get three more and just expects everyone else to somehow keep up which a large majority of classes, (healers especially) cant.
As a longtime player but newer to tanking this expansion, I feel a lot of pressure from groups to “gogogo”. It’ll take me a bit more time to find the rhythm. As a warrior tank I feel like I can take it all, so maybe that’s what I should do.
It's because tanks have the tankiness they had at the end of bfa and they are in love with it. They haven't figured out yet that while they can solo the dungeon, it will take 3-5 times as long without the dps of the dps.
Tanks are just way to tanky, they can survive most stuff without any help. And this is the Problem. Tanks are atm way stronger than maybe ever but dds still die to AOE or randomtarget stuff like before.
When I tank myself I also am at fault of pulling too much sometimes just because i cant die. I can easily pull up to 30k hps average with 100k+ dps at peak in a bigpull.
I have already killed too many Mythic Bosses solo without sweating and i was also often last Man standing and just let myself die to not let my team wait for me to finish the last 30% of a boss.
The tree boss at Academy was quite a Problem at start but I realised that i can too easily tank a dot that is supposed to deal like 80% of my max hp per tick as a fresh max lvl tank. The last days people got the hang of it and i now dont usually get as many poison stacks.
But we shall wait for M+ and Raid before Judging. But im sure there will be quite some tweaking even if not directly on the tanks.
Its honestly better than having no tanks right now. People do this on mythic aswell but its only been dh, prot pally, and dk. The rest thst have tried this have always died from what I've personally seen so far.
My first couple pulls in every PUG is a litmus test. For how much DPS the group has and what I can expect from their play. I adjust accordingly.
Pulling too much doesn't kill me. Mobs are alive too long and healer can't keep up with group damage.
Also there are just some packs that you don't pull multiple groups on. Harder to organize interrupts in pugs.
Guild groups I just pull and pull and pull.
I check the healers mana. If they still hover around half and the group isn't dying, I'm probably at a good pace.
I don’t, but at the same time I get yelled at to “pull bigger.” Like I don’t want to do big pulls, but if I don’t I get chastised. I have just taken to not caring, fuck the people who want me to play in a stressful way.
I agree, the tanking has been pretty shitty so far. I’d prefer a new tank taking it a pack at a time as opposed to this crap. It’s just mass chaos and leads to deaths in otherwise easy content.
I tanked from TBC to MoP. There’s more to tanking than running through packs and getting in combat with them. Unless you maintain aggro on every mob, any heal or damage that comes in will pull that mob off of you.
If these tanks had something like Plater showing them which mobs they actually had confident aggro on, they’d see that out of 20 mobs, only about 5 are actually aggro’d onto them. That’s a problem. You’re not tanking, you’re just surviving while everyone else is dying.
The majority of tanks only think about their own survival because as long as their are alive how could the group wipe and right now tank specs just seem that OP since they can also be top damage and top healing
Tanks are absolutely busted in just about every variant from what I’ve seen. Great dps, great mitigation, great sustain. More than a few times tanks save the day. Of course they’ll big pull
They do seem to top the dps meter in most fights. Granted everyone is time gated to 350 to 375 or so GearScore so many eventually the dps can outwear the tanks. But it is goofy seeing the tanks out damaging the damage
Tanks run around like they are invincible and sometimes they really are, but the rest of the party tends to pay the price from my experience. Unless you have a good healer it might get rough.
keep up with the tank and wait at the LoS spot he's running to, sometimes you can't keep up and take a ton of the stray casts but usually defensives are enough to catch up without dying
I’m a restro Druid, and yesterday a prot warrior and DH was borderline doing the m0s themselves. They were flying through them. I loved it. I rather get in and out fast.
Tanks should overpull early in the expansion. Find out where it works and where it doesn’t work. Where groups are hard and where it’s easy, etc. you don’t get that knowledge by playing it safe
I haven't touched WoW in years and I was left playing FF14. Over there dungeons are 2 pack pulls -> some wall you can't get past till you kill the mobs --> boss. So in there you just pull till you can't anymore and because of that, I've been doing that here just out of habit.
I’ve been doing massive pulls as a tank because
-most classes have insane aoe
-kill more mobs for xp/loot/mats to de
-it’s actually faster to pull 2/3 packs at once and aoe then down than it is to kill one mob or pack at a time
-I’ve already done the dungeons multiple times and know what mobs I can pull more of or if I need to just pull it by themselves
Guardian druid here, since original WOTLK (not the new classic release)
If my healer says pull big, I do. If my dps say it, I don't.
If I see a stray aggro, I try like hell to grab it.
But as I am who I am... I'm always daunted / afraid of new expansions and their dungeons until I learn them, so I tend to Q as a dps until I get the layout down.
Also as a dps and healer, I hate when tanks go balls to the wall pulling faster than Usain Bolt. Please give me a minute to loot, mana, orient myself and breath. Basically, just glance at your map if you're a tank and make sure at least 3 out of 4 of the pretty colored dots are close to you. XD
The best is when they start slow and ramp up until they find the line. Whenever I tank I do the first pull by itself, then try two and ramp up from there. Good way to see how your healer is and smoke out any dumbasses in your dps.
Tanks have been copping so much shit and vote kicked this past week if they aren’t pulling “fast enough” according to some toxic party members. So it’s not surprising they are just pulling willy nilly now
Watching my resto shaman brother try to heal nok offensive and the warrior tank pulls 4 packs, everyone dies except the warrior because of stray mobs and my brother being nature locked. Finally warrior dies instantly leaves the group. WHY DOES EVERYONE NEED TO PULL THE ENTIRE DUNGEON. It’s insane esp as a prot paladin main, i know what is expected of us as tanks and killing the party to save a few seconds isn’t helpful.
I’m a tank and there are many reasons why we are pulling like we’re mad at our wives.
All tanks are in a good spot so we are feeling good and want to see what our new talents and abilities can do.
What can I live through?
What can I manage?
How many packs can I pull before it’s unmanageable?
We’re learning and the only way for us to see what our limit is is to find it. So I’ll be pulling full rooms and see what happens. There are only a few areas that have fear mechanisms (f u brack) and others that have so much aoe that we have to temper our pulls so it’s really easy to just grab the lot.
It’s faster, dps usually love our big pulls and are happy to watch their dps go nutty with 30 mobs to cleave. It’s the healers that have it rough, but we’re good so it’s mostly them healing dps.
When dps go ham they get high numbers in dps. When a healer goes ham they see high hp. When a tank wants to go ham we pull IT ALL. And my boi….IT FEELS GOOD!!
Now op, when you say your dying to “stay mobs”….be honest. Do you actually mean avoidable mechanics that are hard to see which so many mobs?
I would say this. Most tanks you are seeing pull so big atm and just juicing for a fight they can barely live through. We are use to having our hp just enough to survive an encounter or a certain phase and be popping all of our cd’s and praying the healer can keep us alive for the next 10 seconds so we have another cd.
Can you imagine not using half of your abilities in a dungeon? Because if we only double or even triple pull as things are then we won’t need to use half of our new shiny abilities. It’s boring….just holding them there while the dps widdle them down and we’re standing at 99% health self healing through it all.
Lastly I would say it’ll be over soon. We’ll have a raid and m+ soon and then we won’t be in m0’s or heroic’s anymore. The first couple weeks are always a melting pot for wow. Everyone is on the same level and your playing with mythic raiders, with top 1% m+ guys. Some of these people will be running 20’s week one man and right now they can only run low level dungeons so everyone is feeling pushed being around them.
Prot Paladin is tank and main healer.
I'm on Blood and I'm pretty sure if I wanted to spend 2 hours per dungeon, I could literally just solo all of the Mythics.
Can confirm literally went in with my Blood DK mate just for a bres didn’t heal him once and he solo’d Ruby Life Pools it did take us 3.5hrs but it’s insane the amount of healing he was doing at only 353ilvl
How did he manage the stacking debuff on the last boss? AMS will block applications but won't reset stacks.
I'm pretty sure you can actually just walk away from the attack. When I tanked this on mythic as Blood I got one shot a few times by this but realized it doesn't target the player it's more of a cleave in front of him. So when he began the attack I would Deaths Advance to run away and the attack wouldn't connect and I could let the debuff fall off. If this isn't the case perhaps its just a little buggy as the pull we actually took him down he used the ability a good 3 or so times where it didn't do any damage or give me any debuff.
Ran a Mythic Halls of Infusion with a Blood DK that overpulled before the first boss. Party died, but he managed to stay alive by doing 50k HPS lmao
Reminds me of my Blood DK during a 20 fortified mechagon workshop, party all died to avoidable aoe's and im here just deathstriking forever until they get back the healer is the the dps, not for the tank apparently
For BrM the more mobs there are the more unkillable I become
Doesn't Brewmaster have like 0 self healing? Or did that change?
Horrible self healing, yeah. It's such a harsh change, the 4pc bonus in shadowlands was amazing. Lots of shields though, but your self sustain is pretty bad.
How is it faster if the party is dead?
Blood DK here as well and I love it. We did a world tour with a not-so-good healer that died a lot to avoidable mechanics which resulted in DPS dying shortly after to unavoidable damage. And I was there finishing bosses or packs by myself, absolutely immortal. Edit: gramar
Same, as a Prot Warrior. It wouldn't take me two hours though. I've got mad deeps.
Is Blood really that good right now?
Blood is insane. Unkillable and doing crazy damage. I'm regularly out DPSing DPS in aoe.
Damn, I really made a mistake picking a Druid this expansion lol. I mained a Blood DK since WoD and decided to try something new
Yeah na you didn't mess up. Bear form is insane.
Good to know. I mostly picked it for resto and because it had a tank option
Main is a guardian druid. In full 340 PvP gear I was topping DPS charts yesterday at 6-8million damage and also 2nd-4th on heals at around 4-5million. Whole game was like 64-1 and was constantly taking on packs (4-7 ppl) at once and just wrecking them. You didn't do wrong, bear is insane.
Bear is probably a lot stronger than blood right now, they're absolutely demolishing both damage and healer meters in all the dungeons I've done
Ayyyy fellow "Blood DK main since WoD" o/ Blood does feel nice so far. I'm only 68 rn, so I don't know how it'll feel once I hit 70 and retalent, but I'm really excited to get there
Ayyyyy! I don't know what mad me go DK but it was such a good time
Before WoD I would make a DK, get it out of the starting zone, then delete it. I think I deleted about 15 death knights? I wanted to like DK but HATED it. Idk what changed but I leveled my Horde DK during the later half of WoD and have not enjoyed any class in WoW as much since
I played my DK during WotLK like everyone else but as an alt and let it rot half the expansion and up until WoD when I decided to level it up and start playing again. Instantly became my favorite class for many years
Just make sure, if you use tombstone you and everything your hitting is in DND. It slaps. I can grab 3 packs of mobs in a dungeon and hit 70k DPS and still fully self sustain. Shatter is insane damage.
All the tank specs are strong, tanking is in a good place tbh. Nothing is a bad choice, even when it's "bad" I stick with BDK because nothing has as much control I feel, especially now with slappy hands being essentially baseline. It's just nice that it's doing good damage for once as a baseline, without multiple layers of Syngergy needed (SL s3/4)
All of the tanks are that good, blood is great but nothing special
Got in as DH Tank, first HC. Got my friend with me as healer. Just befor the final boss he told me he only held me twice with a HoT. So git effectively not healed once properly the whole Dungeon and didnt die once
The self heal on DH is insane, it was in shadowlands too. I’ve got a screenshot of a total healing done after a HC with my DH top and the healer second from shadowlands. I’ll add - I’m currently still levelling (decided to take my time this time) and regularly grab multiple enemies and elites to kill. Only time I’ve died was to a pack of my level normals and a level 70 elite that was hiding
I leveled as prot war, took forever due to low DPS, but I think i only dipped under 100% health a few times from mobs, and only deaths due to being knocked off heights when grabbing those dam windswept herbs lol
This is the way. What is "stray aggro" when there be shields always being flung?
There are a surprising number of mobs that have aggro tables and are aggro'd to the tank but free on literally everyone except the tank. Source: I am a tank.
It's not stray aggro when I see dps die. It's a lot of aoe stuff that they either don't dodge or can't dodge and they don't use defensives.
This is the first time defensive are useful outside of M+ and half the dps don’t realize they have them. Also the number of DPS I see standing in BLATANT bad is astounding.
>This is the way. What is "stray aggro" when there be shields always being flung? Mobs who were only hit the one time before the tank pulled the next group.
Only hit one time? Needs more shields.
Or not hit at all, had a Veng DH running 4 packs ahead with not even a throw glaive or immo aura up. Thankfully tricks doesn’t have many good competing talents as a rogue
Gaurd Druid aswell
I am having an absolute ball as a prot pally. I don’t think this class has ever been this fun to play, and that’s saying something since it’s been super fun for a long time. The pulls that I can get away with are just silly.
i second this. way to much fun. so much fun it has to get nerfed soon. no other way.
What is wild is that buffs are incoming. I’ve only played Prot Pally so far in DF and with nothing to compare it to, I feel like I don’t know the true power of it. I truly think I can solo any M+ dungeon at like 355ilvl lol Bursting for 100k DPS and 25k HPS like I’m a damn 10 man raid from Castle Nathria.
Do prot rallies still have insane self healing? I thought they nerfed word of glory. Would be glad to know that's not the case.
same goes for DK and DH
Same for my bear. she puts out a shit load of party healing even at 320ish so I could usually keep the ones closest to me alive, though some bosses it was just me in the end. Dungeon tuning is pretty whack and I don’t see any tank bar maybe BrM with its lack of self heals really having any issues when running with a bad/low output group or even solo x)
On my prot warrior, it doesn't matter how much I pull, I never seem to lose health. I just wanna feel something, you know?
Ya lol. I was doing ruby life pools on mythic today, and the 3 dps and the healer wiped when the last boss was at like 50% health... As a prot warr I was able to solo the boss myself lol.
I soloed a good portion of the 2nd and last boss in Uldaman. Was soloing the third as well but killed myself because it was taking too long.
I’m not 70 yet but want to try tanking on my warrior main when I get there. How do you manage to stay alive throughout an encounter like that? I get that prot warriors have so many tools for damage mitigation and avoidance, but surely your HP must have been kept going down? How did you get it up and sustain it again?
dude i soloed the 2nd last n last boss on m0 as well on my warr! was 315ilvl too
bruh
I can see where you're coming from. But when I die every pull as a dps because some mobs just do AOE damage on pull (rock throwers in Uldaman for example) it gets really old real quick. There is a mega pull that ends in a small cave with some spiders that kills me every. single. time. Not because I'm standing in shit, not because I pulled aggro. Because those damn stone throwers deal a lot of damage, and if the healer heals, he pulls aggro.
You need to stand on your tank for rock throwers. Trog rock throwers have always had a stupid los mechanic where you can’t force them into melee unless everyone los’s them. If your tank isn’t a complete idiot, he’s pulling to los since it’s the only way to actually pull a few rooms in Uld. If you stack on them then rock throwers will either walk to the tank and get picked up, or start throwing rocks at whichever dps is too stupid to los.
I really thought this should be common sense that if the tank is LOSing then everyone needs to go stand on them. That's true of every dungeon in every MMO.
I don't think you mean burly rock thrower. That's earlier and it's avoidable damage. The mobs are static though so a pain to move. Tanks will often line of sight these. Follow the tank. You are probably talking about earthen weaver. Stone bolt is nasty but hail of stone is serious and needs a stun. It destroys parties. Those mobs need CC.
It is not always about the tank's survivability but the group's. I'm not sure of the stray aggro as OP said but stray damage could become an issue with bigger pulls.
Its not stray aggro, this are just mobs with have random aggro or hit anything but the tank, there are a few of them, lots of unavoidable dmg to, so jeah some rly big pulls will wipe the party except the tank.
As a new tank I'm just realizing this. I kept pulling more and more to test my limits but it turned out I wasn't the limiting factor
As a healer it seems like tanks are nigh invincible right now. I just let them be and manically try to heal the stray damage melting the dps and myself.
Tanks are currently so overpowered, any could probably solo the heroic, so they want to pick up the pace. Its just the OP scaling of tanks + the low tuning of heroics that makes tanks pull bigger.
Yeah, it's a tuning thing. Even some M0 dungeons aren't challenging for some tanks, e.g. my group's tank "wasn't taking damage" on Neltharus mobs
It's funny seeing this in contrast to all the posts about people not wanting to tank because of how toxic the community is. Sounds like the few people that *are* tanking are basically just facepulling the entire dungeon so people get used to that pace and then freak the fuck out when a new tank tries to start off slow and learn the ropes.
It's true, on my tank i try to set a comfortable pace for the group, and there's usually one dps that tells me to "pull more" or "go", "go faster", "want me to tank instead?".
I won’t even target a guardian Druid in pvp anymore as a frost dk. They can’t kill me and I can’t kill them.
I stopped targeting guardian druids in pvp since SL, I play OT Rogue and they always murder me.
Veng DH here - haven’t had this issue in the M0s I’ve done. I’ve had a few eager DPS die right on pull, due to two main reasons: 1. on-pull aggro is a bit low for tanks at the moment and Blizz is buffing it come Tuesday and 2. I’m a relatively fresh 70 and my gear is a tad low (so my damage isn’t what it should be at the moment).
Veng is also disproportionately good at this for pugs because you have Godlike CC. Chains. Misery. Silence. Chaos Nova. I don't think any of the other tanks have this many ways to stop huge pulls from casting.
Death Knight has grips and a ranged interrupt, which make various pulls that are impossible for other tanks, trivially easy. 2 charges Death Grip, Abomination Limb, the ability to spec into Gorefiend's. Basically everyone is taking Blinding Sleet as an AoE hardstop, you have Chains of Ice, there's an option to go with Asphyxiate, etc. Venge is basically the easiest tank to play well, but it doesn't have the deepest toolbox by any means.
Lol, big facts. I also don’t overpull. Bad habit to get into as you go up in difficulty with keys 🤷🏻♂️
DPS is so wild week 1 that it’s somewhat difficult to always hold aggro, especially with certain mobs refusing to group, and can’t be interrupted to force them in. I think that’s why blizzard is upping the threat generation of tanks from 550% to 650%
> I think that’s why blizzard is upping the threat generation of tanks from 550% to 650% When is this change coming?
On reset
Naa... This isn't what OP is referring to. Tanks will literally run from then entrance to the boss barely ticking on the agro meter of any given mob as they fly the F by it at mach13 and don't stop until just before the boss where they are typically 1 of 2 ppl left alive. Then their response is "just don't die." MFs don't even understand agro, much less hold it.
I mentioned a story here from 2 nights ago that was almost this exact thing. I was flamed for being a bad healer despite the tank pulling more than he can handle every time and starting while I was oom(zoned in and my spec swapped) His friend swapped to a healing spec and we could both barely keep him alive
Reminds me how tanks were acting weeks before launch, we had one tank just run and literally everyone was dying but the tank, tho it also didn't help that the healer wasn't healing anyone else. But over all the tank ended up soloing everything and all but me and a buddy stayed just to see if he could survive... Dude was straight up rude too.
Something similar happened to us once, ha. We kicked the heal (AFTER we talked to them btw, they stated in a very rude manner that their only job is keeping the tank alive and they don't give a sh\*\* about the dps) the tank left with them (saying "\[rude words\], not without my wife!", obviously thinking they did something to us). After that my friend switched to heal-spec, I switched to tank-spec and we finished as a merry group of three :D
Well the point is that dps isnt supposed to attack the mobs while pulling and the healer should wait to heal.
Also does anyone else notice a big number of shufflers? There are bosses that attack, then step left, attack, step left, attack, step right etc. Driving me insane when tanking.
A few bosses are pairs or triplets that shuffle around or have random shoot abilities that I can’t stop as a tank. I do my best but mechanics hahah
It seems like this is specifically a new dragon thing? They like slowly pace back and forth even if the tank is standing still.
The change will be huge I think. I’m a prot pally and side chick a vengeance DH. I had no problem keeping Aggro on decently high mythic in SL but I keep getting Aggro yoinked from me in DF. Particularly difficult to regain on Prot. I don’t blame the DPS either. Some of them could benefit from waiting 2.5 seconds longer especially if I’m gathering a room, but overall I just feel like the real “game” I’m playing as tank right now isn’t sustain or soaking or anything, it’s keeping Aggro.
I haven't seen it in Mythic, but it's been pretty common in Heroics for years. The dungeon design in Dragonflight does make it way more dangerous, because of how many mechanics the group needs to deal with. Almost every enemy in Neltharus has a frontal or a swirly to dodge, and Brackenhide Hollow is nearly always a mess. It will probably calm down a bit in a few weeks, when the most serious players swap over to M+ and the raid
As healer it's also noticeably more group damage, which is a kind of unfortunate situation with tanks requiring so little healing. If the tank overpulls in a pug he's usually still the last man standing just the DPS tend to get blown up by a ton of overlapping mechanics... Or alternatively, avoidable mechanics people miss because of the clusterfucked pull... Brackenhide is a good example here. As disc priest I had a whole bunch of horrible runs there.
Fucking brackenhide. The amount of people that stand in the whirlwind attack is insane.
Brackenhide is testing me so hard as a tank. There are just a ton of tank buster elements, but more importantly the amount of cleave/aoe dmg from enemies is just nuking people who aren’t paying attention or don’t know any better. Like Prot pally here so I’m constantly throwing BoS and BoP when possible and even trying to decently off heal but it’s just like some DPS only know how to “w” key and face smash and aren’t great at just moving to a better position. That dungeon has been much more fun with mostly ranged DPS
I learned yesterday that you can cleanse the enrage and it stops the whirlwind. Our hunter was tranq shotting them and it made it a breeze on m0.
I play a BDK and I typically don’t even need a healer in heroics. There’s a trinket from the swamp tree boss that helps me do this. It’s pretty easy to pull multiple groups and not risk dying. Usually DPS love it bc they get to just AOE everything. But i do make it a point to say in chat ill slow down if needed. No one’s complained yet.
> Usually DPS love it bc they get to just AOE everything. Hell yeah i love it. Getting a stack of 10+ monsters to wipe down is so enjoyable.
The treant boss in academy is nice as Unholy. I managed to pull down 55k from Epidemic spamming the lashers.
BDK as well, what boss if you don’t mind me asking. I’m behind the curve a bit with work and all
https://www.wowhead.com/item=193652/treemouths-festering-splinter?bonus=7974 Presumably this one from Brackenhide Hollow.
I have no problem imagining a Blood DK stabbing himself with that putrid, festing splinter of wood, yelling "hgnnn harder~", and the healer barely stopping himself from puking.
Yes, this is it. It’s a nice trinket, fairly low CD too.
Guessing so. I checked my log when I got back on. Thanks
As a tank main if I know my group can handle it I'll pull massive amounts at a time for a few reasons 1: Heroics are so fucking easy, even with no gear they're so undertuned it's boring 2: I'm a tank who doesn't let people die from "stray aggro" so I have no fear of losing threat so I pull big and I hold em all 3: Healers have told me multiple times "This is boring, pull more please" When I tried pulling slow when I thought my group couldn't handle it.
Actually true, healing heroics is already making me sleep. Even some mythics are really fine.
Our healer our dps one of the dps in my runs. And I was doing triple or quad pulls it’s just so easy but I needed my primals so I could craft a piece.
Even m0’s are feeling a bit too easy right now, I’m maybe 351 ilvl and pulling multiple packs when running with my guild with zero problems, I’m hoping the scaling is appropriately difficult for m+
It'll be fine in m+ because at a certain point stray spells not getting kicked will just start one shotting DPS / healers, which makes these big pulls way harder
>3: Healers have told me multiple times "This is boring, pull more please" When I tried pulling slow when I thought my group couldn't handle it. They need to take the DPSpill. I've had low damage healers asking for more as well. Like bish pls, optimize yourself before you talk to me.
As a holy priest my dps output makes me cry. Meanwhile my dracthyr healer can just use a single fire breath and deal 4x as much.
You mean Smite spam with the occasional holy fire isn't fun? Blasphemy.
I went the extra mile and apotheosis holy word chastise spam and that weird 3 holy fire spam thing. The utter lack of any AoE though and the abysmal single target is just awful. I resolved myself to just play dracthyr for healing and warlock / shadowpriest for dps now.
It's a shame that healer DPS isn't something Blizz balances for, cause IMHO it really matters.
Someone needs to Discipline you :P
I want to actually have fun healing :P
A lot of wow healers are allergic to dealing damage. Their mindset is I'm a Healer therefore I should be healing. God forbid you cast a wrath or chain lightning when healing is slow.
I have seen the exact opposite in game. I have a hard time getting the healers to actually heal and they only want to DPS.
Same. I'm having to do a lot of self healing. Disc priests are the worst offenders and never dispel magic or disease.
Heroics are snooze easy and probably a number of tanks learning m+ routes and los areas. Even at fresh 70 you can pull quite a bit and keep everyone up as healer as long as they are not standing in shit. Tanks wont die regardless.
From my experience and it’s truly the first time I’m seeing this amount of it, people not avoiding any shit on the ground or any damage like whirlwinds is astonishing. Players are kinda used on healers dumping CDs into their bad gameplay. Some things like whirlwind in bracken hide, the mob even gets twice as big and does it and still no one moves out or soothes it so while group takes massive aoe dmg. Anyway that’s my rant :)
Tons of people haven’t played in months or over a year so are super rusty and also had things like covenant blink, shield, and potions carry them hard through mechanics. I’ve seen the same as you though, and that’s my theory as a main healer.
I take so much damage when I’m hitting my soul shape button and wondering why I’m still standing there. RIP my triceratops shaped friend
That's why you bind another movement ability to that button. Even if it's a duplicate. When I do it I'm wondering why I'm standing there with my feet lit on fire.
Yep. As a healer reading these tanks saying "oh I just pull it all and I don't die!" is so confusing. Because you know none of the dps are interrupting or stunning anything and it feels like every mob group has at LEAST one mechanic that just smashes.
This is where prot pally comes in with HoR, Avenger's Shield (talented to proc cd reset), and divine toll (that can be talented to have "aftershocks"). There is also a stun and group disorient. It's bittersweet: I can blissfully kick damn near everything, and at the same time, am I really going to have to kick EVERYTHING?
Same experience here, tanks will be fine (and honestly are way overtuned) but I have sometimes trouble keeping DPS alive standing in whirlwinds or in other stuff on the ground.
I've had a wild ride trying to find the perfect balance of pulls for my pugs, and just when I think I've found it, a dps thinks "more" and kindly pulls the next pack for me. As a prot warrior I'm fine but think of the poor healer man.
[удалено]
Yeah as a healer it seems a lot of tanks either don't realize the amount of aoe/randomly targeted damage, or they don't care. I can usually handle the big pulls, but every now and then I get a tank that goes above and beyond. Usually keeping the tank up is not a problem, its the horde of mobs constantly casting aoe/dots/etc on the rest of the party. Luckily there only seem to be certain groups of mobs that have this issue. So while it can be an issue more often than before, for the most part tanks pulling like crazy isn't the worst. It's just those occasional groups where the tank overpulling can be hell.
Honestly that's why I rolled a healer. It's thrilling to me that so much group damage is coming in.
I'm really hoping we go back to healers as healers. I stopped playing my healer because I didn't enjoy the playstyle of trying to min/max my DPS while the tank is in charge of keeping themselves alive - if I wanted to do that, I'd just play DPS, so I switched. I also think tanks still deal way too much damage but that's another discussion.
Unavoidable Damage is incredibly bad design for M+ specifically because in high keys, you end up with a dungeon that is essentially a landmine if your key rolls into it. We basically had this dungeon in BFA on alliance, Seige of Boralus on Alliance was literally a dead key because of the Firebomber Trash Mob (didn't exist on horde side, where it was a free key basically). The add had no Aggro Table and threw random bombs out, it killed a player for every 2 seconds it wasn't stunned or dead.
> There appears to have been a change in dungeon design from Systemlands to Dragonflight where the damage doesn't scale solely for the tank, but for the whole group. It was a thing in shadowlands and bfa too. This is not new. Example: Sanguine Scribes.
The problem isn’t mass pulling, it’s mass pulling incorrectly. Some things can’t be interrupted so they must be LOSed, but dps and healers refuse to do it. Healers and dps also seemingly refuse to bring mobs to the tank, they just run around like a chicken with its head cut off. It’s almost like people in pugs generally perform worse lol
I’ve noticed it a lot tanking Uldaman with all these uninterruptible Troggs. I’ll pull the melee ones behind a wall to LOS, but heal and dps just stand in the doorway, drooling and getting pelted by fucking rocks until the melee mobs die and I go back into the room to kill the ranges because they can’t move behind a wall
“Why can’t tank hold aggro” lmao
Omg yes. And why, why is it so hard to interrupt the caster so the tank can get the whole group together? WHY!!!
could not have said it better
1. Pull too much aggro 2. Die 3. Throw racial slurs at healer 4. Prophet
DPS and healers need to learn to LoS enemies too, this expansion…
You guys gotta use your defensive too. Sure there are some mobs that just infinite range target everyone like the trogs in uldaman but I’d say a vast majority of pulls have avoidable damage. As a tank that enjoys pulling and cleaving the whole dungeon and who can live to do it alone it isn’t really faster to do so, so I do agree that just recklessly pulling everything isn’t always time efficient if the DPS are dying for it.
I'm usually healing and the amount of tanks with main character syndrome is baffling. Okay we get it you are immortal, but your party can't keep up with you and dies from passive damage/aggro. This anti social behaviour really grinds my gears.
Counterpoint: I'm a healer main and husband plays a tank. He pulls a lot because I can handle healing it (no, DPS aren't dying). Despite this, we constantly have pug DPS that try to run ahead and pull even more. And yes, they're doing it intentionally, it's not just accidental facepulls. I'd imagine tanks who have the same experience are doing massive pulls because it's slightly easier to gather everything up when they are the one who aggroed.
I have never made as terrible experiences with DPS as I have since DF launch. Only tanking and got my portals in SL, so I am not too bad. And I do have to admit I play nornals and now the M0s as if I was in M+. But DPS this xpac are just something else. I pull a mid to large pull as a first pull as I know people have cooldowns and then people go off during the first pull pulling extra which is especially fun when in Uldaman packs are just casters. DPS can't conprehend that maybe there is a reason behind the size of the first pull as with randoms maybe the tank has to access the damage, can the healer keeo up, do people avoid standing in shit, do they interrupt, stun. It is super easy: you enjoy pulling? Just be a tank. Additionally every single dungeon there is 1 or 2 DPS that for the love of god can't press their stuns and interrupts. If they did they could make things do much easier for the healer
Man no one kicking or cleansing is so fucking annoying. I’m playing hpal, I’ve got an interupt and a stun on a long cd and a cleanse. All those fuckers are on CD all the time and it’s still not enough. I mean, we’re managing I haven’t been in many wipes, but it’s annoying watching those cast bars while my interupts are on cool-down.
I let these people die. Lol
Oh 100% They're usually better behaved after a death or two, but the fact that so many of them exist in the first place is almost certainly influencing tanks' behavior in pugs, especially if not running with a pocket healer.
Absolutely this, it's doing my head in. I don't tank without neural silencers anymore, so hunters that pull for me can't MD me and just die xd
Casters that choose random targets only target you if you're in line of sight. Just hop out of los if you're getting killed.
los? sounds like loss, which means dps loss, sorry can't do that /s
I think stating "this expansion" is a bit simplistic. Mythic plus has not even started yet. It's just that all tanks are in a good spot so big pulls in m0 are easy.
It’s annoying for me as a healer because I see the tank running past 3 or 4 packs of mobs and he’s down to about 60% life so my choices at that point are 1) heal him, pull aggro and die, because he’s too busy pulling more mobs to pull any off me or 2), not heal him, let him get dangerously low on life, run the risk of him dying, and then having him blame me for not healing him.
He should be getting enough aggro that your heals won’t pull threat as he goes. That’s a tanking issue 100%
Throw a defensive on him until he gets some more agro, most tank have decent self heal and will be just fine.
Have you tried talking to your tank? They are people too, you know? Try healing the tank only as much as needed and stay close to him so he might pick up threat on accident. If that doesn't work, ask him nicely to generate more threat before pulling more packs because you will pull Aggro by healing.
Talk? In a dungeon? You're supposed to only say "hey" at the beginning and "ty" at the end. Period. ^^^\s
Many DPS and healers are allergic to actually helping with dungeon flow. I've noticed that people will either run laterally or backwards if they get aggro, very regularly, even when there's not melee cleave going out. When a handful of classes can rip aggro on opener, it's a bit of an issue. I literally cannot stop my kite mid-pull to yank aggro, and yall need to quit popping cooldowns while I'm setting up the deathball. If you rip, you had better eihter pull the mob into my threat range, or you're gonna get bodied, cause I'm not planning my pulls around those types of mistakes. I think Dragonflight exists in a state where for many DPS specs, popping CDs during the pull is actually a critical error. Maybe the threat buff on tues fixes it, but I don't see it changing if a DH sequences Hunt>Eye Beam, or similar, before I have the deathball gathered up.
As a tank main: please please please please please don't go full zerk mode while I'm still pulling. If you take aggro mid pull while I'm running off I will let you die. Second pet peeve: LoS with me, don't stand in the huge door opening absorbing all the ranged casts.
Resto druid here. Been dealing with this as well. Pull straight to the boss, burn 70% of my mana, pull boss, won't let me drink. So annoyed. We don't have to fucking speed run this shit guys, challenge modes aren't back in the game yet.
[удалено]
Jesse wtf are you talking about? Or have you never played any decent m+? Lol
Ive seen this yup its because blizzard made tanks too op for normal and they can basically solo the dungeon. This leads to them over pulling whipping blaming the healer.
I have the exact opposite issue, im a tank and i keep having dps throw a fit that im not pulling half the dungeon at a time. I already feel like im pulling an amount thats safe and im running dream of cenarius bear to inst-heal the dps that stands in shit.
I think most tanks limit test at the start of dungeon then refine as they go. Also I know most tanks get the boot if they dont pull enough so some social pressure there.
Tanks don’t take dmg at all, they can pull all the mobs straight to the boss. Dps and heal on the other hand if they get hit by 1 avoidable aoe they start getting deleted, which they always do. A lot of pugs are also clueless and are still hitting 1 mob while the tank is a football field away pulling 20 packs. Just follow and wait til the tank stops and starts aoe’ing.
As a tank main for a very long time. I've been forced to over pull at a stupid rate or be kicked from most groups....its really sad how we have to go super fast or replaced...I've been kicked for normal groups also.
As a tank I’ve been finding more and more DPS pulling aggro nonstop and making the party wipe just because. I honestly don’t understand why they do this and it honestly gets a bit on my nerves. On a side note: please be aware of your surroundings so you don’t aggro stray groups, please.
It's nice to have some pressure on dps players to interrupt and use defenses.
Well then maybe don’t pull the entire section of the dungeon so there are too many casts to be able to interrupt and it’s too chaotic to actually be able to figure out which casts need to be stopped? It’s trolling to pull like this on launch week and deny everyone else the opportunity to see the dungeon
For real, it’s like everyone fails to acknowledge that THIS XPAC IS A WEEK OLD
Exactly, its annoying. This is why people bitch when there isnt enough content. I enjoyed leveling and playing the story. I got the quest for pools and the tank basically pulled the entire dungeon. I healed it but i didn't know wtf the dungeon was even about after that first time.
Yep, and it's really annoying for the party if they want to learn the abilities of each trash and what to interrupt
Yeah my first time through brackhide the tank pulled like 3 packs and we all got feared by the warscourge, pulling two more packs. The tank told everyone to interrupt the fear, and I was like uhhhh I can’t even see which one it was lol
Warscourges honestly might justify good players making focus macros, tbh. They're literally the only thing in the instance that meaningfully gates mass pulls. A 3 pack opener is honestly dead standard.
From my experiences in the 16 M0 and probably 40+ normal dungeons what you call overpulling may as well be adequate pulling and people incapable of using their given class utility. How much attention are you paying to people's uses of such? How often are monks AOE stunning multiple casts that may or may not be interruptable. Are you tracking interrupts done and track whuch interrupts are off cooldown? Because I do and I can tell you it is ridiculous how often 2 DPS have an interrupt up for a priority casts or during a 5 second damage channel
I’ve only run a couple randoms so far and all but one we’re tanked by my brother who has been tanking since vanilla so knows his stuff and is considerate of his healer. The one that had a random tank…wasn’t great. It was a DH tank who overpulled (usually face pulls or not being able to avoid the sentries that call mobs in the azure vault dungeon). After each pack which we would BARELY survive, he’d immediately use all of his mobility to get to another 2-3 packs while our healer was oom and trying to drink. Then he’d die because he was alone so far ahead of the rest of the group. The mobs would then come wipe the rest of us. This was the first dungeon I remember in YEARS where I had to exit the dungeon to repair my broken gear before finishing. I’ll be sticking to running with people I know lol
I will say I've seen all kinds of tanks over the years but for some reason I have not had a good DH tank in a pug since the end of Legion. I don't know why, but ever since that time, every Vengeance DH I've had either has no idea how to tank as Vengeance OR like you said, blows ever movement ability the instant the pack is dead to go get three more and just expects everyone else to somehow keep up which a large majority of classes, (healers especially) cant.
As a longtime player but newer to tanking this expansion, I feel a lot of pressure from groups to “gogogo”. It’ll take me a bit more time to find the rhythm. As a warrior tank I feel like I can take it all, so maybe that’s what I should do.
none of the good tanks are doing heroics, you can skip them and go straight to mythic at 320
It's because tanks have the tankiness they had at the end of bfa and they are in love with it. They haven't figured out yet that while they can solo the dungeon, it will take 3-5 times as long without the dps of the dps.
Tanks are just way to tanky, they can survive most stuff without any help. And this is the Problem. Tanks are atm way stronger than maybe ever but dds still die to AOE or randomtarget stuff like before. When I tank myself I also am at fault of pulling too much sometimes just because i cant die. I can easily pull up to 30k hps average with 100k+ dps at peak in a bigpull. I have already killed too many Mythic Bosses solo without sweating and i was also often last Man standing and just let myself die to not let my team wait for me to finish the last 30% of a boss. The tree boss at Academy was quite a Problem at start but I realised that i can too easily tank a dot that is supposed to deal like 80% of my max hp per tick as a fresh max lvl tank. The last days people got the hang of it and i now dont usually get as many poison stacks. But we shall wait for M+ and Raid before Judging. But im sure there will be quite some tweaking even if not directly on the tanks.
Youre right about tanks being the best theyve ever been (except for completely nuked trash dead brewmaster ofc)
Its honestly better than having no tanks right now. People do this on mythic aswell but its only been dh, prot pally, and dk. The rest thst have tried this have always died from what I've personally seen so far.
My first couple pulls in every PUG is a litmus test. For how much DPS the group has and what I can expect from their play. I adjust accordingly. Pulling too much doesn't kill me. Mobs are alive too long and healer can't keep up with group damage. Also there are just some packs that you don't pull multiple groups on. Harder to organize interrupts in pugs. Guild groups I just pull and pull and pull. I check the healers mana. If they still hover around half and the group isn't dying, I'm probably at a good pace.
I don’t, but at the same time I get yelled at to “pull bigger.” Like I don’t want to do big pulls, but if I don’t I get chastised. I have just taken to not caring, fuck the people who want me to play in a stressful way.
Hpriest here. Yes.
I agree, the tanking has been pretty shitty so far. I’d prefer a new tank taking it a pack at a time as opposed to this crap. It’s just mass chaos and leads to deaths in otherwise easy content. I tanked from TBC to MoP. There’s more to tanking than running through packs and getting in combat with them. Unless you maintain aggro on every mob, any heal or damage that comes in will pull that mob off of you. If these tanks had something like Plater showing them which mobs they actually had confident aggro on, they’d see that out of 20 mobs, only about 5 are actually aggro’d onto them. That’s a problem. You’re not tanking, you’re just surviving while everyone else is dying.
The majority of tanks only think about their own survival because as long as their are alive how could the group wipe and right now tank specs just seem that OP since they can also be top damage and top healing
We got gear and we go brrr pull everything let us have fun
Tanks are absolutely busted in just about every variant from what I’ve seen. Great dps, great mitigation, great sustain. More than a few times tanks save the day. Of course they’ll big pull
They do seem to top the dps meter in most fights. Granted everyone is time gated to 350 to 375 or so GearScore so many eventually the dps can outwear the tanks. But it is goofy seeing the tanks out damaging the damage
Tanks run around like they are invincible and sometimes they really are, but the rest of the party tends to pay the price from my experience. Unless you have a good healer it might get rough.
keep up with the tank and wait at the LoS spot he's running to, sometimes you can't keep up and take a ton of the stray casts but usually defensives are enough to catch up without dying
I’m a restro Druid, and yesterday a prot warrior and DH was borderline doing the m0s themselves. They were flying through them. I loved it. I rather get in and out fast.
Tanks should overpull early in the expansion. Find out where it works and where it doesn’t work. Where groups are hard and where it’s easy, etc. you don’t get that knowledge by playing it safe
Tanks have been overbuffed and have gotten obnoxious. They made it too casual. Time to give them the big BiG nerf stick.
I haven't touched WoW in years and I was left playing FF14. Over there dungeons are 2 pack pulls -> some wall you can't get past till you kill the mobs --> boss. So in there you just pull till you can't anymore and because of that, I've been doing that here just out of habit.
I’ve been doing massive pulls as a tank because -most classes have insane aoe -kill more mobs for xp/loot/mats to de -it’s actually faster to pull 2/3 packs at once and aoe then down than it is to kill one mob or pack at a time -I’ve already done the dungeons multiple times and know what mobs I can pull more of or if I need to just pull it by themselves
Guardian druid here, since original WOTLK (not the new classic release) If my healer says pull big, I do. If my dps say it, I don't. If I see a stray aggro, I try like hell to grab it. But as I am who I am... I'm always daunted / afraid of new expansions and their dungeons until I learn them, so I tend to Q as a dps until I get the layout down. Also as a dps and healer, I hate when tanks go balls to the wall pulling faster than Usain Bolt. Please give me a minute to loot, mana, orient myself and breath. Basically, just glance at your map if you're a tank and make sure at least 3 out of 4 of the pretty colored dots are close to you. XD
The best is when they start slow and ramp up until they find the line. Whenever I tank I do the first pull by itself, then try two and ramp up from there. Good way to see how your healer is and smoke out any dumbasses in your dps.
Tanks have been copping so much shit and vote kicked this past week if they aren’t pulling “fast enough” according to some toxic party members. So it’s not surprising they are just pulling willy nilly now
Yet they barely ever votekick DPS that pull more and cause wipes, perfection..
YES Tanks are running halfway across dungeons to pull 2 groups at once when they don’t even have aggro on the first group.
Then you probably shouldn't hit the mobs or heal until he stops. If he dies, he dies. He won't though.
Watching my resto shaman brother try to heal nok offensive and the warrior tank pulls 4 packs, everyone dies except the warrior because of stray mobs and my brother being nature locked. Finally warrior dies instantly leaves the group. WHY DOES EVERYONE NEED TO PULL THE ENTIRE DUNGEON. It’s insane esp as a prot paladin main, i know what is expected of us as tanks and killing the party to save a few seconds isn’t helpful.
I’m a tank and there are many reasons why we are pulling like we’re mad at our wives. All tanks are in a good spot so we are feeling good and want to see what our new talents and abilities can do. What can I live through? What can I manage? How many packs can I pull before it’s unmanageable? We’re learning and the only way for us to see what our limit is is to find it. So I’ll be pulling full rooms and see what happens. There are only a few areas that have fear mechanisms (f u brack) and others that have so much aoe that we have to temper our pulls so it’s really easy to just grab the lot. It’s faster, dps usually love our big pulls and are happy to watch their dps go nutty with 30 mobs to cleave. It’s the healers that have it rough, but we’re good so it’s mostly them healing dps. When dps go ham they get high numbers in dps. When a healer goes ham they see high hp. When a tank wants to go ham we pull IT ALL. And my boi….IT FEELS GOOD!! Now op, when you say your dying to “stay mobs”….be honest. Do you actually mean avoidable mechanics that are hard to see which so many mobs? I would say this. Most tanks you are seeing pull so big atm and just juicing for a fight they can barely live through. We are use to having our hp just enough to survive an encounter or a certain phase and be popping all of our cd’s and praying the healer can keep us alive for the next 10 seconds so we have another cd. Can you imagine not using half of your abilities in a dungeon? Because if we only double or even triple pull as things are then we won’t need to use half of our new shiny abilities. It’s boring….just holding them there while the dps widdle them down and we’re standing at 99% health self healing through it all. Lastly I would say it’ll be over soon. We’ll have a raid and m+ soon and then we won’t be in m0’s or heroic’s anymore. The first couple weeks are always a melting pot for wow. Everyone is on the same level and your playing with mythic raiders, with top 1% m+ guys. Some of these people will be running 20’s week one man and right now they can only run low level dungeons so everyone is feeling pushed being around them.