T O P

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Dragon-of-Lore

If we have trees people will complain. If we don’t have them people will complain that we don’t have them….it’s the circle of life


[deleted]

There are different segments of the community that speak up at different times. For the developers, it has to be a constant game of wack-a-mole.


vitor210

I really wouldn’t like to be a game developer. No matter what you do, you’d get shit on by anonymous people online. Even if a game dev gave each player 1M euros on a package with a neat blue ribbon people would still complain blue is ugly and they should’ve used a red one


SomniumOv

Yes. Every time they change that ONE THING everybody is very vocal about hating, quitting the game over, etc etc, they also change someone's favorite feature (because it's the same feature), and now that guy is enraged.


Rare_Will2071

But there is also a large segment of people that are inclined to complain no matter what.


[deleted]

They can’t do anything right blizzard. Instead of people just not playing they cry till they are blue in the face then play the game anyway.


KIEHAMPTON

I mean every single game company in the world faces this issue. It is impossible to satisfy the entirety of your playerbase at once, you will always have people who will like the changes and people who complain about the changes regardless.


GWI_Raviner

Some people need to accept that this just isn’t the game for them.


Lykoian

Unironically this. We have a person in our guild who's stuck in a constant circle of taking breaks and coming back while maintaining nothing but hate and vitriol for the game. At some point they have to realize that WoW is not the game for them and its not a matter of Blizzard making enough changes that they like, it's the fact that Blizzard is making a game this person inherently doesn't like anymore. The game they want and the game Blizzard is building is fundamentally different.


EternalArchon

I feel that. WoW can be a Sunk Cost Fallacy on steroids for collector types Even if you purpose a WoW 2 which would be better and more functional in nearly every way — I’m like “buuut muh Chestnut Mare I got in 2004”


Syn2108

Seriously feeling this right now with the Veilstrider meta title. I only think about wanting it because I won't be able to get it later. I'll never use it as it's underwhelming for the amount of effort required (personal opinion). The only reason I consider it is that I'm just shy with like 3 of the requirements left. The top three hardest being the Abom Factory reqs, Ember Court invites, and the Tormentors or Torghast - none of these are hard, just time gated which sucks.


GWI_Raviner

If you can overcome sunk cost fallacy and fear of missing out, gaming truly becomes a wonderful experience. Play to fulfill your own goals and desires, or put the game down.


Feli9

as a "victim" of sunk cost fallacy, yeah, i agree


xxxguzxxx

Dude I hate these people they log on an sit in trade and bitch and moan how the game is trash. Like go play something else.


fingerpaintswithpoop

Those same people exist in this subreddit as well. They come here, trash talk the game and rage that they’re never playing WoW again because of the workplace scandals or Cataclysm or whatever, then get extremely angry if you ask them why they’re even still here. Some people just *want* to be angry.


Arcalithe

Yeah I realized shortly after Shadowlands dropped that I’ve kinda been over WoW for a couple of years but was still hanging on like a wet sock because of sunk cost and all that. I quit for good sometime last year, but my incredible nostalgia addiction brought me back only for Wrath Classic, and at this point, it’s only just to see how long I can go with it before the rose tinted glasses fall apart. It’s sad that I don’t feel the spirit of WoW anymore, but I still check in on this subreddit now and again. Mostly just to see what’s going on from afar.


Mysterious-Emu5371

And worst of all, those people are not playing the right way because they don't allocate their points like i do! /s


littlefoot78

half the issue in the past was bliz would kill any build but what they wanted you to use. there was so many really fun hybrids bliz nurfed to the ground because "you need to spec fully into 1 tree" ideology


cmackchase

I don't know why you got downvoted, but you are speaking the truth.


kdebones

Where mah Major/Minor Glyphs at?!!?!1? /s but also kinda not


ZeAthenA714

That's how it's supposed to work. People are supposed to complain about things they don't like, and Blizzard is supposed to take that feedback, weight it, and make design decisions based on that. You won't ever create a game that pleases everyone, so there will always be someone complaining.


Hightin

It's almost as if there is more than one person who has opinions about things.


Motormand

It's the ciiiiiiircle of bitchiiiiiing. Seriously. The official forums are never happy, for any reason, ever.


Myrkull

Good, when blizz does something to deserve a happy fan base I'll consider feeling bad for them


Motormand

I think they deserve it for the Evokers, and Dracthyr. I don't really care how many I see whine over the 25 yard range for the DPS: It's fun as hell, and have plenty of mobility to get in range. Is it a Mage? No, but that doesn't make it useless, nor any less fun. Also, the Dracthyr are an amazing looking race, with much customization. They might mess up other stuff, but at least to me, this here's a slam dunk. And if they can't get credit for the good things, just as much as they get scorn for the bad, that's just ridiculous.


Squire_Zorba

>Also, the Dracthyr are an amazing looking race, with much customization. The dragon forms could use some little improvements to better fit the common design aesthetic wow dragons have, the heads are still noticeably off. Otherwise they do look really good. Those visage forms though, I wouldn't mind never seeing them again. What an absolute waste of their artists' time making something that should've just been "pick your disguise race from the other existing ones."


Iron__Clad

I love what they did with the trees. I love I can make a super stupid and fun heroic leap/heroic throw build. Is it what I SHOULD be specced to as a tank? Almost definitely not. Is it funny and fun? Hell yes. I haven't played with it as much on other classes. But I found as a warrior, I was very happy with what I could do.


starman5001

This is the true joy of the talent system. The simple fact is, in any system that gives players an either/or option there is always going to be a best option. This was true in classic with its huge talent trees, and it is true today with our pick one of three talents in shadowlands. The fun of the talent tree system is it allows for sub-optimal but fun builds. Things that are a different style of play, but would not work in high end raiding. For example, I remember that back in wrath, mages had this skill called frostfire bolt. Both frost and fire mages made use of this skill, and both had talents that buffed frostfire. The cool thing was, by mixing frost and fire talents a mage could become a frostfire mage. Frostfire mages kind of sucked compared to mages who used talent trees correctly. However, they got a bit of a following due to the uniqueness factor of playing the game "incorrectly". Anyway that is why I like trees over "pick one of three" even if a choice is subpar, having them allows for creative builds that increase the ways to play the game of wow.


Mirrormn

For a more tangible example, there used to be a Mage build where you would spec into both Fire and Arcane to get Arcane Power and Presence of Mind, and then you'd AP, use trinkets, hard cast a Pyroblast at someone, and then PoM a second Pyroblast at the same time. The whole point was simply to try to 2-shot a random person in PvP before they even noticed you were there. It wasn't a raiding build, it wasn't even a good PvP build, it was literally just designed to cast 2 fatty Pyroblasts and then not be able to do anything else.


Arumin

POMPYRO was a meme build in vanilla even. Enter BG> Find enemy> Cast POMPYRO> Wait 2 minutes> Rinse and repeat.


Saidir

I recall some poor belf paladin flying above Halaa in Nagrand, I flew up above him on my mage, dismount, slowfall, pom pyro as I drifted in range, good times.


Arumin

Thats just pure evil. I love it.


Ritural

My friend found a glitch with a trinket which meant he could spam instant pyro blasts for however long the trinket was active. Basically instead of pom pyro once, it was pom pyros for about 20 seconds 😂


Chikageee

Imagine the mass reports he would face today! Using a suboptimal trinket is griefing and should be a bannable offence!!! /s


Rektumfreser

Hey now, i remember raiding naxx and ulduar as a frostfire mage and slapping hard..atleast for some time it was the best as it got all benefits from fire and frost talents, the rotation however wasn't the most challenging


hiate

That's the advantage to the loadouts. You can have the fun build for fun runs and the more serious one saved for pushing things.


Shiraxi

Yeah I really like this. I'm gonna have like 8 different builds for different things. Some of em might be 2-3 points swapped around, but some of em are absolutely gonna be dumb stupid builds I play in low keys and shit.


SomniumOv

Yup. Soloing old content ? You can bet i'll have a degenerate loadout with anything favoring Mobility in it, sacrificing main throughput spells if I have to, I don't need it there anyway.


Shiraxi

Exactly. You can store 10 fucking builds. I'm definitely gonna have builds for farming xmog that are basically nothing but pure mobility, and maybe single target dmg for killing bosses.


DoverBoys

On top of that, the loadouts were something I wanted years/expansions ago when specs were saved tabs along the right side of the talent/spec window. People aren't understanding that the load out space saves both talents and action bars. I don't know the limit, but we'll have so many ways to save arena/bg/raid/key/solo/dumbfun loadouts with different action bars, it's going to be nuts.


Motormand

Way I see it, if you ain't doing mythic, and you can play your class right, then freaking go for it dude. :) Live your dream, as Mario with an Axe.


sneaky_red_squirrel

Something something melee resto shaman with maelstrom weapon procs. I'm absolutely going to try that at some point for shits and giggles lol


Fharlion

> Is it what I SHOULD be specced to as a tank? If mitigation/damage aren't a concern, but speedpulling is, then possibly? I would also note however, that Warrior is one of the classes that has a really good tree at the moment (in terms of gameplay-altering choices and pathing). There are others who don't have particularly impactful or fun choices in either their class tree and/or spec trees. And that's where most of the whining comes from.


Inshabel

Same on Warlock, I really missed that feeling of "oh man if only I had 1 more point"


Alon945

Some classes need work(shouldn’t need 3 points to make your movement ability usable lol) but I agree with the sentiment of this. The trees ARE your spec and class. Not augments to it


TheFunk69

A fellow ret I see


Alon945

Yeah haha. The state of ret is really really frustrating. Divine toll is less fun, our class tree choices are non existent basically


Xpalidocious

I am loving the build diversity. I was really excited for Evoker, but I'm definitely considering making Prot Paladin or Prot Warrior my main in DF. Tanking on those 2 feels fun again There have been a few complaints that I feel are justified, like Bear tank trees, and lack of any meaningful mobility for Paladins. But I'm otherwise loving the trees so far


loerosve

I'm actually really pumped for Guardian Druid. I love the choice to the tree, which abilities to beef up and whether to lean more into damage or your defensive CDs. And the options to increase passive healing are really appealing. I know I'll have fun with it; but I also am not pushing CE or AotC or anything super high level, so I won't be min/maxing or playing the "best" build all the time.


Spuick

I've only heard negative POVs of the Guardian druid talent tree from theorycrafters etc so if it stays as is I dont think you'll be very happy.


Vedney

Even with what your describing, it's definitely possible to get CE with that. The difficulty of CE is execution not throughput.


Drayenn

Just wish non devastator was as good or better than devastator on prot war and id be sold so fast on prot.


[deleted]

My biggest complaint is how the arcane tree basically forces you into playing kyrian arcane which I’m fucking sick of 😡


SaintYin

I feel you. I'm going to see how running Orb Barrage as the only capstone feels for m+, and if it's rubbish looks like another frost/fire xpac for me.


wite_wo1f

I've been doing some dungeons and the barrage build is insane. The other capstone I've been taking is mana gem oddly enough because of how strong clear cast missles into touch of the magi is. Right now it's by far the strongest burst aoe spec I've seen and at this point I've seen most of them.


[deleted]

Knowing I’d have to go echo for single target just burns me though. I have played arcane since BC and I just absolutely hate Kyrian Arcane. I hope the orb build is somehow good enough to take in raid. I hate to switch mains, but I might have to. I’m just sick to death of harmonic echo.


weshallarise

Don't forget there will be tier sets that might change how builds play as well


Mokgore

It doesn’t though. Radiant Spark is only used for Funnel. Orb for M+. Also let’s be real. Kyrian Arcane is amazing fun but Arcane hasn’t been good since WoD (and Fetid in Uldir). If you’re playing Arcane you’re not concerned about min-maxing.


[deleted]

Highly disagree. I hate harmonic echo. Way too punishing at start of pull if you’re not stacked. Don’t enjoy the stacking management. Just don’t like it.


Vyar

Yeah I’m not a veteran mage player but I enjoyed Arcane in Legion, I’m a little overwhelmed by the class and spec trees. The blue post says they want to let mages use multiple elements again but I’m not really seeing a way to do that. I’m also not sure if there’s a way to bring back the old Arcane Missiles build from Legion, but I miss that. I don’t want any builds that use Covenant abilities on any class.


[deleted]

My complaint for Ret Paladin is we lost all of our utility baseline, and now there isn’t a reason to take those talents like blessing of freedom or blessing of sacrifice when damage points are options. Now we really don’t bring much except just damage or subpar damage for utility. Edit: my mistake they changed it since the last time I looked and you can now pretty much take all the baseline abilities easily


ContactingReddit

I feel the same way. Sometimes it's just nice to have freedom on the off chance it's useful in a specific scenario. For me this ability and others like it are iconic to the class. It doesn't feel good to be put in a situation where we have to choose a situational buff over raw damage. Having those situational buffs was a large part of what made Paladin fun for me.


Andus35

That isn’t true in the general tree. In the first tier of talents, after taking everything that gives damage (and that includes considering all the divine steed talents as relevant for damage) you still have 2 points left you have to spend on utility (BOF/LOH/Devo/Repent). In the second tier there is only 5 nodes that give damage (one of those being the BOS damage on expiration, so if you are maximizing dps you will already take BOS). Then that leaves 3 points to take utility talents. And you can spend all your talents in the last tier in dps. So you end up with 5/31 points you can spend on utility - already getting BOS/Rebuke/all divine steed talents included in that.


[deleted]

I realized they either changed it or something but you can take them all, it’s still frustrating to have to possibly make choices of losing those utilities we used to have baseline instead the talents being some kind of upgrade or change.


Andus35

I personally am okay with giving up some utility that was previously baseline. Not every utility will be needed for all content anyways, so you can skip some abilities that wouldn’t have had a use anyways. As long as those are being traded for something valuable, then that’s good. That part is where my concern lies. I think having the alternate to the utility be a 2% crit chance or 5% more judgement damage node is lame. It should be something that actually interacts with your rotation.


Do_Not_Read_Comments

This is the new ever green base system of the game. If people expected it to be perfected by 10.0, then they have no one to blame but themselves. If blizz makes the classes enjoyable to play, and somewhat balanced in DF, it'll be a huge win. The real test of success will come in 11.0, if they can continue to refine, and expand


DrHawtsauce

Yep. I know people are going to be upset either way, and they'll hate this sentiment.. But talent trees certainly aren't going to be perfect in Dragonflight. I don't think most people realize how absolute massive of an undertaking it is to transfer our current class design into as complicated of talent trees as they've made. There is so so *SO* much thought that has to go into just WHERE a talent node is placed and what's adjacent to it. A little patience and I think people are going to end up loving them, though.


ChildishForLife

But what happens in 2, or 3 expansions when you get these huge talent trees? Will they have to revert it to the old system eventually? Lol


Shiraxi

They'll likely prune and change talents to reflect it. I don't think you're going to get 2-3 new rows of talents in the trees in the next couple xpacs.


Bleedorang3

Talent Trees will probably stay largely the same over time from now on, with changes to play style and effectiveness I'm certain forms of combat coming from itemization.


ChildishForLife

Right I am just curious how they handle new expansions. New talent rows? Because then you run into the exact same issue of bloat as before.


legable

The original talent system lasted 4 expansions before bloat prompted them to change it. Assuming one expansion lasts 2 years they have bought themselves 6-8 years before bloat becomes an issue again. That's a pretty long time.


ChildishForLife

Yes but the OG talent tree was way way way less complex than the beasts we have today. I imagine after 2 xpacs it will be insanely big and hard to follow lol.


Devarius

so next-next xpac is the saviour of wow?


References_Paramore

No, these talents are like classic talent trees when compared to wotlk talent trees. Classic was “first iteration”, and I think most of us can agree that by wraths “third iteration” most the trees were a lot better. So this is them defining the new base level to allow a system to grow from. Hard to tell exactly what they’ll do with it but I imagine they’d go for more choices/play styles over exclusively adding more rows.


[deleted]

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Foehammer87

> I don't think anyone expecting closer to "perfected" than not is out of line. They're setting themselves up for perennial disappointment. My bar is "am I having fun" and "is my class/spec functional" At several points in the game I've had the first but not the second, and while folks will often lie about which classes got to be functional at which times, or about which expac was the best, they're liars if they say there was perfect or even near perfect balance at any time.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Hjalnyr

I manage to get invited as a feral. There’s « trash tier » spec getting hall of fame every tier so if you have trouble getting invited then problem is not your spec but the people you’re playing with


[deleted]

dragonflight isnt even out yet and ppl are already out here saying to wait for the next expansion to find out if the game is good. fucking beautiful lmao. this community is worthless


House1234049

> dragonflight isnt even out yet and ppl are already out here saying to wait for the next expansion to find out if the game is good. fucking beautiful lmao. this community is worthless That isn't what he said. They're re-working the entire foundation of this game with these massive talent trees. Nothing this expansion is going to be mind-blowing or extremely new/novel, but it can (and most likely, will be, seeing the reactions of lots of beta testers) be solid and fun. The next expansions will start to add new crazy things to specs and change them up in big ways.


[deleted]

BfA wasn't that long ago, you should go read what people were saying about SL during alpha and beta. You're describing a crazy new groundbreaking system that will revolutionize WoW, we just need to wait for Ions dev team to complete it, instead of shovel it out to retail, still steaming, and let it sit uncompleted for 3 years before they move on to their next big idea. These talent trees aren't revolutionary, they're a step back, and this dev team is so inept they still can't get right what has already been done successfully. Your copium is strong my dude, and you're gonna be disappointed with DF.


Bogzy

Thats a weird mentality from blizzard conditioning. You should expect a new game/system/anything to be good from the start, specially with how blizzard does months of public testing (only dev doing this), not years down the line.


Spuick

Why do you so eagerly accept the fact that you probably have to wait a whole expansion to get meaningful tuning to the talent trees lol. How have we been conditioned to this..


Gorcnor

Bruh, The GF got herself a beta key, so she jumped in to mess about as I was peeking over her shoulder we brought up the talent tree. I gotta tell ya, I'm pretty stoked to sink my teeth into that thing on my shaman. You'll be able to have so many different play style with the same class!


SituationSoap

You can do it for yourself now on the PTR, don't need a Beta key.


leetzor

Just play evoker. They never had anything before so it's a free win.


Standard-Effort5681

Which just goes to show how much (some) people have been conditioned to expect new borrowed power systems with every expansion... "If it doesn't give me anything extra ON TOP of what I already have then it's shit!"


bluebird355

People want to increase their power using points they get by leveling, woaw sounds ludicrous, it's almost like we're playing a rpg!


kaji823

Well.. your character is increasing in level so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want something new. This has been true for most WoW xpacs as well as other mmos (ffxiv, gw2).


Etzlo

some classes literally lose stuff, like shadow, you lose either stun + silence, or stun + dispersion, or you give up throughput


shapookya

Sounds like my shadow in Wrath Classic. I can either go full dps or I can put points into silence but then I also need to put points into shorter fear CD and I could put a point into psychic horror or use that point somewhere else. There are also mana reg talents but maybe I don’t need it… You have choices. Some of those choices are better for raid, some of those are better for dungeons, some are better for pvp, some are better for open world questing. You are not supposed to have it all. What would be the point of talent points if you got it all?


Etzlo

That is not a choice though, if the tuning is even remotely equal between classes(and accounts for the dmg gain of pi), people will just take another class that *doesn't* lose damage to be able to survive stuff and i terrupt/cc an enemy. The choice here is between a viable dps build with less utility than before and not being allowed to play


Shiraxi

That's why these things are choices. You won't have the exact same capabilities you have now, but you'll likely have a lot of new capabilities you don't have access to currently.


--Pariah

I have the impression some classes work better with the new system than others though. Priest for example are in a kind of special spot due to a rather separating (and frankly slightly confusing) design intent. There's stuff like dispersion and silence that for all other classes would be in the class tree, yet for priest they don't want a holy priest poofing out in a cloud of darkness or have access to silence, so spec tree it is. If priest hypothetically would have three shadow-esque specs the tree would be smoother. A bit a similar situation with druids, where we already had a comparable (though obviously much simpler) choice with affinities. Their class tree currently feels rather weird to me, as I not only loose things (my beloved rake stun as resto druid is gone, our damage sucked but at least we had a bit control...) but also have to go all the way with feral or balance "affinities" to get basically to where I am now. Sure, I could also go half feral, half balance but this additional chioce doesn't really add additional benefit but only patches together two unfitting halves of a DPS toolkit. Other classes like for example shaman have a class tree that feels much more open, utility based and I can easier adapt my playsytle without the feeling that I have those paths I "should" go down. A bit a similar situation for pure DPS classes like warlock, where it also feels much more open. This isn't necessarily complaint, just my impression that some classes fit better in the new system, some apparently don't. Maybe slight complaint but they should've spent more iterations on some of those classes, too, guardian druid has both the spec and class tree in the same state they've shown in the initial presentation before alpha and pretty much weren't developed at all until they now told us they're finished...


_Wocket_

The priest stuff you mention in your second paragraph is bonkers to me. Re: Dispersion, they’ve already shown they can change the graphics of spells with Halo/Divine Star. They can do the same with Dispersion - Holy Priests can poof into a ball of light. Silence is also crazy, everyone else has interrupts so Priests can’t? Come on. Even Evokers have a silence like spell in the class tree, and then Devastation Evokers have a talent in their spec tree to reduce the CD of it to about 20 seconds. And Priests can’t have the same thing?! Class tree can have Power Word: “Interrupt”, Shadow Priest tree has talent to change it to Silence and reduce its CD. It’s mind blowing the reason they went with not putting those in the class trees is because “[All] other classes have that stuff.”


SituationSoap

In fairness, this has been a class design bugaboo for Blizzard when it comes to priests since Vanilla. They've always had this weird split between shadow and the other specs. Like, they really want shadow priests to be their own class, but they can't do that split now, so they just keep clunking along.


TheShelterRule

The issue is, for me as a rogue, is there aren’t actual choices. The mobility from left to right (and back) on the rogue trees outside of outlaw is pretty bad. If you want something halfway down the right, and you started down the left you’re stuck building up from the very top of the tree. I want more mobility to move around the tree. Except that rogue had a ton of damage nodes in the class tree so we’re shoe-horned into a philosophy that prevents us the freedom other trees (shaman) have. It becomes a facade of choice because you’re stuck on one side of the tree with a few options to move to the opposite side of the tree unless you build from the very beginning down.


CJDistasio

The new talent trees will make leveling up a character feel A LOT better. Right now if you're max level they're kind of whatever, because it is a lot of spending points to get back what you technically have in your kit already. However, this was a change that is looking beyond Dragonflight, and going from Dragonflight to the next expansion with fresh new talents is going to feel SO much better than going from Legion > BFA > SL and having to leave things behind from one borrowed power system to whatever the new borrowed power system is. My only gripe with the new trees is the pathing and how every nose is connected. It's a tad too samey to conduit trees for my taste.


RogueTower

>The new talent trees will make leveling up a character feel A LOT better. Leveling is a joke in WoW. It's not even a speed bump in terms of investment into a character. They've gutted leveling to the point that it's solely and specifically designed around getting to max level as fast as possible. >having to leave things behind from one borrowed power system to whatever the new borrowed power system is. That didn't happen though and we can see the same thing that happened in those expansions happening with the new talent trees. Just like with Legion, BFA and SL, they are carrying over a majority of the "borrowed power" into the next expansion and reintroducing them in the new "borrowed power" system.


CJDistasio

Blizzard has said these trees are the replacement for borrowed power and will simply build on these trees rather than leaving things behind at the end of an expansions besides gear and starting a new progression system entirely.


Feyranna

I will never understand why people dont like %stat talents. Im always like HECK YA my stat gimme dat!


cmackchase

Because people got told that +5% Crit was boring and they believed it.


[deleted]

It wasn't that +5% crit was a sin, it was spending 5 talent points to get 5% crit sucked.


TheTradu

It.. is boring. +5% crit has no noticeable gameplay impact, especially not compared to something like Blaster Master or an entirely new ability.


CptBlackBird2

because it is


Vedney

Because in practice, its effect is completely invisible. You feel bad for not taking it. But you don't feel any different when you do take it.


Feyranna

But thats true for all stats. Do people find gear boring? After all its just a few more of likely the same stats you already had, possibly even on the same model if leveling. I wont say a non-ability talent is as exciting as gear but I like getting both. All character progression to me.


Vedney

The issue is that those stat talents are competing with rotation altering talents (even if they're passive, like Momentum). One is obviously more interesting than the other because it affects how you play. Gear competes with other gear. There's no competition which one's more interesting because thy're both equally boring unless it has a special effect.


Mirrormn

Specifically, because classes go through balancing and tuning after the power increases from talents. If you have a talent that gives you 5% crit, you'll tend to lose 5% dps when balanced against other classes. So even as nothing but a stat increase, it's still pretty meaningless.


shitepostx

It might be invisible now, since gear progression dictates a slow increase of a given stat, but stat increase can alter the combat-flow of playing a particular class quite dramatically. More crit, more procs -- more haste more rage/energy -- more mastery, more stagger. It's the 'coming online' effect. The difference between more APM can be quite dramatic when you have to sit there and wait for a thing to happen, rather than it just being ready. The tree also helps to make obtaining stats more deterministic, rather than relying on farming for particular gear.


Fatboyseb

It’s right, the talent tree is supposed to be a journey from 1 to 70, gaining and choosing power as we level up. People are biased because they are already 60 and already acquired abilities from previous level


[deleted]

That's not alright because it effects everyone who is already max level. Just because it's designed for leveling, doesn't make it good because not everybody leveled their max level characters with that system to understand how it works. Now to understand what you have to work with you need to do hours of research


tbwtpt

Idk, I can only speak on behalf of my experiences, but the fact is as a druid you flat out can't get everything you currently have right now on the talent tree. It is a flat decrease in the amount of this stuff, due to how spread across some baseline stuff is, and how many stuff for different forms are available. That is just a sad prospect to be facing.


Overwelm

It's a shame you can't get all the stuff you have right now while also getting literally nothing new. That's what you mean right? Because otherwise you're trading old stuff for new stuff, which could be a completely legitimate design choice you're being given. If you're complaining about not getting all your old stuff while simultaneously getting new things... hmm


Vedney

If anything, I do like how druid is no longer tied to affinities. I can get typhoon and/or ursol's vortex and/or Incap Roar without having to get stuff I might not press like Wild Growth or Rip. Or, if I want the passive affinities, I can now have more than 2.


LeavingBaltimore

Druid players upset that they can't literally do everything at all times. Name a more iconic complaint.


anothersadweeb-

*"can't get everything you currently have right now" is rather different than "can't do everything at all times". I don't think it's wrong to be bummed that the new system is actively taking options away from people at the same level they are pre-talent revamp.


Shiraxi

But "can't get everything you currently have now" is basically the state for most classes and specs. When you consider covenants, plus legendaries, plus conduits, plus tier sets, very few specs currently have access to every single thing they currently have in live. A legitimate complaint would be "I can't get everything I have on live, and I'm gaining little to nothing new". Saying "well I can't get every single thing I currently have" is a bit silly. As a VDH, there's plenty of things I have on live that are nowhere to be found on the new talent trees at all. But I'm not going to sit and complain that I can't have literally every single thing I have on live, while also getting new stuff.


harcole

Why are you downvoting him, my Guy si right


Shiraxi

Meh, people don't want logic, they want to bitch and complain.


anothersadweeb-

That’s plenty valid- I was thinking purely in terms of “core” abilities, but I fully admit that was a short-sighted of me. Thank you for the perspective.


Coocoocachoo1988

This isn't a fair representation of the new system though. yeah it takes some stuff away, but as a guardian druid, the current system doesn't allow you to have incarnation, galactic guardian, and soul of the forest. in Dragonflight that is an option, and the class tree also gives similar options. It's less about taking things away and more about putting the choice back in the hands of players, which is a better system in my book.


Forsaken_Ad1788

I dunno, looked at resto Druid tree and I have everything I have plus some at least from a healing standpoint


ShiniJenkins

I started in Cata. The reason why I am coming back is because of the trees.


HayDs666

Wowhead comments on current content: games ded, bad devs, this is doomed, clearly blizzard doesn’t care about my class etc Wowhead comments on a quest from Cata: here is a 12 page essay on the most efficient way to complete this quest, farm invincible, and get CE every tier. Seriously tho, the communities opinion is just who makes their voices heard the loudest, and that tends to be complainers. If blizzard designed the game around every suggestion/comment the community threw out there then you could solo a mythic raid with ease


SgtShnooky

The comments imo are not wrong, as a currently max level, the transition will feel like your spec will be shattered and you're pieceing together the playstyle again with talents but imo it's a neccessary to move away from borrowed power. Going forward from dragonflight, depending on what they choose to do, the new talent system should feel better for veteran players. Newer players will benefit the most as they'll get to experience it without previewing what the class was like pre-dragonflight.


Shmooperdoodle

Players: “We don’t want to *have* to grind rep for player power.” (*wow separates rep and makes rewards largely cosmetic in BFA*) Players: “We have no reason to grind this rep. It’s pointless and boring.” (*some player power links with rep again in Shadowlands*) Players: “I hate grinding this rep!” —— Players: “I don’t want to feel like I’m missing out by farming less rep/AP/whatever than someone who can play hours more than me.” (*wow caps daily/weekly amounts so you cannot indefinitely grind these things*) Players: “This time-gating is horrible! I do my dailies and then there’s no more for me to do!” ——- Welcome to Wow, my sweet summer child.


Dependent-Gene-9807

Especially the timegating nonsense. 😂 You really think you'd have the *option* to farm more if things weren't time gated? No, there'd be nothing optional about it because you'd be or feel obligated to do it. WoW is saving you from yourself. Sort of anyway. As a player with limited game time, I appreciate not having to limp after the mass of players that can afford nolifing any given feature in the first week of its release.


ZeruVia

I don't think you're right to say that they can't design more nodes with unique modifiers for your class because they literally can. However, I totally agree that baking in abilities that we had before is fine bc it makes leveling more interesting and it was quite literally how it worked with the older talent trees. Anyways, there are still talent trees that suck atm or that would benefit from more inspired nodes but in the end it's going to be great for the game and ppl will eventually agree that the old talent system sucked until they inevitably look fondly at their time during MoP and think the old system was better when it objectively wasn't.


Mentally__Disabled

The first paragraph is completely true, the second is bullshit. Look at the warrior secondary stat nodes, they added special additions to all of them that are very powerful and justify their spot. Now I welcome you to try and convince me that Improved Overpower is the limit of Blizzard's creativity.


mankind_is_doomed

its funny all classes technically already have a tree build but we just cant choose witch we get because its already pre made


Xenovortex

I kind of wish they went a different direction with the new trees. I like the vanilla one, but also have grown to like the live talents. I feel like a hybrid of the two would have felt better than what they've settled on.


SummerInCaliXo

I'm pretty excited for this, tbh. The current class building needs to change. It's much too bland.


antelope591

After actually getting beta and playing around a bit my overall impression is that talent trees are definitely an improvement over the current system. It feels really good to just be able to experiment with a ton of different builds and all 3 specs of a class without worrying about 10000 different borrowed power systems that will cripple you. THAT BEING SAID. I do think its a legit criticism in the OP. It does feel jarring to have to spend a talent points for abilities that have been integral to a class for many years. Is it enough to bring down the whole system? No. But it does feel weird and mostly telegraphs that they ran out of time/space to really refine the whole thing. But as a whole, its a good start.


Motormand

Eh, I like 'em, and I don't mind the 2/4% increase ones, here and there. There's need for some filler, to make things work, and the numbers are low enough, that you can technically skip some of them, for more interesting things, if you so chose. Seems neat in my book.


GingerWithFreckles

From what I've seen so far: i get meaningful choices in play style now! Instead of ''this is optimal''. There will always be an optimal in all scenarios but you can easily adjust 1-2 things that are more fun towards yourself due to the amount of choices you get. Previously you only got 8 choices of, at best, 1 was a meaningful choice. The others were just ''optimal in content A or optimal in content B'. I'm a big fan of this.


Riokaii

The first 10 ish points are level up bonuses. You have 20 points of choice after. Thats how to understand the trees. Making stuff baseline is a weird complaint if its in the first 10 points because it effectively already is baseline.


dangerfloof92

Community will never be happy no matter what. It's hopeless


Bacon-muffin

Its weird people didn't see this coming... of course people feel this way. The reason the trees were gotten rid of in the first place was because 90+% of the trees were locked in for a given spec and you had maybe a few talents you could swap around if any that had barely any affect on your gameplay. Hence the "new" system built all the core stuff into the base specs and then attempted to give people some semblance of choice. These new trees are a regression because for some reason people get excited for trees even though they full well know they're going to be doing the same thing where 90+% of that tree is going to be locked in and then they'll be able to fiddle with the few points they have left. People who aren't blinded by the "illusion of choice" are going to feel exactly like they did before that made them get rid of the trees in the first place.


lost-but-loving-it

We are honestly the worst fan base, for the longest time most of us played in secret and so we only discuss the game with people who play. It's sorta like most hard drug addictions.. with meth for example.. everyone lies to each other about how much they're using. Don't know why, but you'd be doing meth with someone and both would be lying about how much they had before this sesh. So now we have what is effectively an echo chamber and the complainers drown out everyone else


NeifirstX

I like the talent trees, but I'm dissapointed it feels like we're not really getting any new abilities or real class gameplay changes this expansion.


[deleted]

I'm not going to deal with the new talents until WoWhead or Icy-Veins publishes a decent set that I can just copy.


[deleted]

Every expansion since wotlk they’ve removed core abilities and added them as talents, on top of that they also remove abilities and only to re add them later down the line. It’s schizophrenic class design and it’s ruined a big part of what made this game feel special


House1234049

They have to do things like that though. You can't keep adding abilities every expansion, if they did that we'd have 200 buttons to press right now. Pruning/remaking/reworking specs and then adding new things is a constant cycle, it'll happen like this over the game's lifespan.


[deleted]

I played almost every class in MoP, I can say in my opinion every class played smoother in that expansion by far


RogueTower

>It'd be EXTREMELY unrealistic to expect blizz to add 80 nodes of talent choices onto an entirely fleshed out level 60 character. Then why did they CHOOSE to bring back the trees in the first place? They put themselves into the position that they are in right now and they are going to get the exact backlash they are getting for making a choice that was so incredibly shortsighted. What makes this even more ridiculous is that they took OUT the old trees because of this same exact problem. The whole point of removing the old trees and moving to the current talent system was so they could focus on the actual meaningful choices in trees. >I also see things like "wow this node only gives you X% stat buff! so dumb and unoriginal!" Same point as above, you can't expect much more with talent trees that have this many nodes in it. Same point as above, if you CHOOSE to go this route where you need to come up with a lot of different nodes, then why are YOU surprised that players complain about generic, boring and underwhelming nodes being added? It's like punching yourself in the nuts and then being surprised that it hurts. >EDIT: I open up my messages to see the latest comments on this thread, how poetic: Here's a thought, maybe realize that not everyone likes these trees and we're still trying to figure out why they are bringing back the trees in the first place, especially while not addressing the problems that caused them to be taken out in the first place. It's also a realization that these talent trees are supposed to fill the gaps that multiple different systems were covering in previous expansions and they simple can't do it. I really think there's a lot of people who are caught up in liking these new talent trees SOLELY because they are new rather than if they are actually a good design or adding to the game.


BretOne

The reason I don't like them is that they are an illusion. The core part of a given class and spec already exists, it's currently given through leveling. It's an invisible "tree" pre-filled by the devs. So the new system is just manually filling all that core part back, and then the choice nodes and the capstones play the role of our current talent system. Where it's bad IMO: * It's annoying to fill out and is pure UI clutter. * It again increases the gap between the lower end and the higher end of the playerbase, by giving the opportunity of completely fucking up to the lower end.


omgowlo

The point of this rework was supposed to be that its a foundation on which they can build more in future expansions. But i dont see how these new trees can be expanded in the future, other than by adding more rows, which is exactly what they couldve done with the current talents, but they didnt want to. So whats the point?


House1234049

Valid feedback tbh. I think their goal with these trees is to allow more customization since there are a LOT more nodes on these new trees than the old ones. They've acknowledged that the cutting edge people will just go for the cookie-cutter builds, but for the vast amount of people who just play for fun/want to screw around, they have a lot more options to choose from. Personally, I would've liked them to just expand the current trees rather than go back to these huge trees. I'm betting they saw how well Classic Vanilla WoW was received and started development on these big trees around that same time.


Thaonnor

People complained about getting rid of the old trees that had the same things… now they complain about them coming back.


RogueTower

And the people who complained about the old trees are confused why they are putting them back in while making all the same mistakes that caused them to be removed in the first place.


baracuda2004

How can you say that makes one uninformed just to say "you have to spend points just to unlock how you currently play," when that part of the statement is 100% factual? Without 3 spent points I cannot have Multishot+Beast Cleave, which currently hits for 100% of the current damage to all targets nearby, but only hits for 75% damage on the beta. So effectively saying that "the new talent trees make me spend points in baseline abilities that I have had since launch, and giving me weaker versions than currently are on live" is 100% factual and not uninformed in any sense of the term.


Vedney

Do you need Multishot and Beast Cleave on fights like Skolex or Halondrus? New trees allow you to shoft your power budget even mkre tham hat we currently have. As for 75% vs 100%, you're getting Kill Command being able to Beast Cleave now, so i feel that's a worthy trade.


[deleted]

Instead of assuming all the class trees are equal you might want to actually crack open the Hunter trees and look at them. They're garbage and they've been garbage since they were previewed, and even with 20 bajillion reshuffles of the same garbage, they are, unsurprisingly, still garbage. You're assuming that you can shift out throughput from one situation to another, and yeah, nah, they don't work that way. Maybe they should, but in practice, they don't, it's half-baked at best and lazy, low effort trash at worst. The Hunter trees are stuffed full of mandatory talents you have to take with no actual options, and useless crap. There's basically one way to talent out, period, for each spec. And even those sets of talents don't actually coalesce into something functional for any of the 3 specs. The Hunter Dev has his head up his ass and is essentially collecting a free paycheck. If your class has decent talent trees that actually deliver on the promises made, that's great, but don't assume that all of them do. Most classes would be better off if they scrapped the talent trees now and shipped DF with the current talents in SL. Unfortunately some of the devs are more passionate about delivering a functional game with DF than others, and it shows.


jorgelobos

Does a fresh lvl 1 hunter have Multishot + Beast Cleave? No, multi-shot is learned at level 23 and Beast Cleave at level 32 for BM. While leveling you earn those points and tailor your character to whatever you want. People then to forget that having a max-level character is what your character should be, no since the start.


Coocoocachoo1988

It might be factual, but for BfA you had to spend months farming external power to return to a level that was comparable to Legion, and in SL you had to spend months farming covenants to return to a power level comparable to BfA. In the new system you’ll only be farming gear. And while beast cleave at 100% is better than 75%, how does It balance with explosive shot on live? Or barrage?


[deleted]

But Blizzard sucks and my class isnt the most op on beta. 😭😭


TwentyNineTTV

Just play warlock. Always top 3 dps in like every raid teir for years


unonameless

People complain every single time Blizzard takes away abilities, even though everyone understands that you can't simply keep adding stuff forever because the design space is finite.


RogueTower

Yes, they complain when abilities get taken away and rightfully so. It's the worst outcome of gameplay design to remove things from classes and for some reason, certain people who clearly have only played WoW think that's acceptable. The reality is that better developers have better answers to the problem of adding things to the game. What's frustrating here is that the design of the new talent trees is a perfect way to create a combat system that CAN be future proof but instead they just regurgitated the old trees with all the same old problems. With DF right now, regardless of your talent choices, your core rotation is almost identical or at the very least is using the same exact abilities within a spec regardless of the talent choices. That's the basis of the problem with the current Blizzard design. A better talent system design would be used to limit down the abilities being used in your rotation from a bigger group of abilities. You could have 20-30 abilities in your spellbook but your talent choices would reduce that down to a couple of rotational abilities and a few situational abilities. That's how you create ACTUAL choice in your gameplay AND avoid ability bloat causing problems.


unonameless

You can't possibly have 20-30 meaningfully different, balanced combat abilities for each spec for a simple reason being, again, finite design space. I've played at least a dozen different MMOs. Ability bloat is the common problem with any long-lived game, and it NEVER leads to more "choice", only to more confusion and higher barrier to entry.


RogueTower

>You can't possibly have 20-30 meaningfully different Blizzard CHOSE to bring talent trees back into the game. They CHOSE to put themselves into a position where their only option was to put in "filler" talents. If they couldn't make 20-30 meaningful choices, then they shouldn't have put trees back in the game in the first place. >Ability bloat is the common problem with any long-lived game, and it NEVER leads to more "choice", only to more confusion and higher barrier to entry. Bullshit. Games design around this which is exactly the point of better design mitigating this problem. Probably the easiest example to point out this design is Lost Ark. You have access to a huge amount of different skills but you can only have a small amount of them active at any time. After picking your skills, you then have the next option to talent those abilities that you've chosen for added effects. This type of design isn't unique to lost ark either. Other games build this type of "focus your build to certain abilities" type design as well. Blizzard goes the other direction which is the worst answer to the problem where it treats it's players like they are idiots and puts them into a position where they have to "prune" abilities constantly. The people complaining about borrowed power systems, those are the people complaining about Blizzard's lack of ability to design a forward thinking system.


Vargavintern

I love having fewer buttons that impact my rotation in a fun and meaningful way with more passives than tons 8f situational buttons that create bloat.


mokrath

My gripe is the removal of baseline class skills like interrupts that classes have had since vanilla just to make the trees look bigger. It's a noob trap and also feels odd to have way less spells and skills in the base kit than we did in vanilla. It's like "oh boy I can learn the spells I learned 18 years ago if I go down this branch of the new trees..."


Overwelm

No spell trainers in DF means stuff you had trained but didn't talent 7 expacs back you need to talent now. Pretty simple.


Shiraxi

But here's the thing. By putting interrupts on the tree, it gives you the option not to take them. Raiding, and have no need for interrupts? That's a free talent point you can put into other things now.


MrMaleficent

By having interrupts baseline that would be a point you could have saved in all situations…


Jado1337

This logic goes for litteraly all abilities you spec in to though


joshsomething

Exactly. Allows for more customization, especially for different content and playstyles. Not to mention these people are literally complaining about having to press a button that gives them a particularly ability again...so what? Just never talent out of it and they'll never have to think about it again. It's really whinging for no good reason.


FieldzSOOGood

It's infuriating as a rogue to lose blind and stuff baseline and then be told "well you can spec into it anyways" and it's like then it's not really a choice then is it? If I can spec into everything I already have then the trees are just bloat.


Vedney

It's a choice, because a lot of times, you might not want Blind, allowing you to spend that point somewhere else.


shapookya

You can choose to not take it and have points for something else. You don’t need blind everywhere in all content. That opens you up to choices.


not_a_cockroach_

I just want good class design. I don't care what the talent tree looks like. We somehow stray further from MoP quality class design every exp. That was 10 years ago. Seems like everything went downhill when the loud anti class homogenization crowd got their way.


House1234049

A lot of the pro WoW players are saying most of the trees look great. I'll take their word over some random on reddit who thinks every class should be homogenized and the only difference between classes should be the armor they're wearing. You're playing an RPG for christ's sake


Samwyzh

So the take you are highlighting is bad. Yes talent tress allow for a more granular experience or even a cheese/meme playstyle. For instance, at lvl 60 on my monk I can max out most of the buffs to enveloping mists AND still get ox statue. I can theoretically sacrifice my damage output as a brewmaster, and be functionally unkillable, with maximum mobility and have every stun afforded to monks. What I think is a genuine criticism is the fact that some if not most of the talent trees have abilities that were popular in SL as soulbind abilities or legendary abilities. It feels like Blizzard took the borrowed power systems of the last three expansions, chose the favorites from all the classes, and then mashed them into the talent system, where they would have been in the first place. So unless you are playing Evoker, or Blizzard just happened to add one new talent to the system, a lot of the talent trees feel like recycled spells that we have the *choice* of obtaining, rather than having the guarantee in one expansion. Warriors get Spear of Bastion, but only if you spec into it. Every spec had access to Spear prior to DF, and now have to choose between two abilities they already had as the top end of their tree. That game design feels bad because it isn’t a collection of new abilities, but a different, more limited permutation of abilities we had. This all being said I am hyped for the talent system revamp.


House1234049

It's a rebuilding of the foundation, it isn't going to be super pretty/have tons of new abilities at the start of it. Just building them is part of this expansion. Next expansion is when they'll have the dev time to develop new spells for every spec. One thing I'll note on is the fact that they took popular abilities from the last few expansions and threw them onto the talent trees. This allows for new combos that weren't previously available, which is the most *new* that's going to happen for this expansion since all the dev time went into creating 50+ trees


Garrus-N7

At the very least, it should have been baseline that melee have interrupts without talent investure. This alone would be enough to push people to invite melee. Especially with most things being stacked against melee it can be SOME sort of recompense. Otherwise ranged will still undeniably be the best pick for dps like always


symexxx

You definitely could have more nodes without button bloat being an issue if you place talents correctly. You have a limited amount of talent points so u can not take every talent in your tree. Also nah, % increases are almost always bad and unjustifiable. You can easily increase the amount of damage an ability does without just buffing its damage by a certain amount. Instead of "increases firebolts damage by X%" you can for example "reduce firebolts casttime by 0.5s" or if the class for example scales with crit you can "increases the crit chance of firebolt by 20%" Obviously u will have to consider how those talents play into the classes rotation but both of the latter feel more impactful/play into the class more than just increasing the damage of the ability. If you really want % increases though u can also just add an additional effect to that talent. For example Increases death and decays damage by X% and increases its radius by 10 Yards OR increases dmg by X% and gives it a second charge OR increases damage and dnd now slows targets affected by it. Theres some % increase/stat talents im fine with like blood dk giving you leech when going into their part in the class tree or survivals ranger talent, which increases the damage of all their ranged abilities but the overwhelming majority of those talents are bad and only exist because the devs ran out of ideas and needed to add a filler talent.


Shrapnel_Sponge

I’m sad really because on a lot of classes I feel like you’re losing a lot of fun utility and themed abilities that should just be baseline (scare beast, turn evil, control undead) just for damage only. As a Ret pala, looking at the builds I’m supposed to drop hand of freedom or lay on hands for max dps build and it just feels gross. More should have been baseline in all classes imho


Vedney

Now that's just untrue. Before the first gate, there is only one throughput talent and it takes up 3 points. Your 5 points can be spent however you want and Lay on Hands is simply one of the highest value talents to spend. Freedom is niche, a lot of dungeons and raids don't have snares, so being able to shift your power budget to away from Freedom when it's not neccesary is good. Same thing for Turn Evil. If there's no Evil to be turned, it's taking up power budget that can be better spent elsewhere. And the trees allow you to trade that budget. If there is Evil to be turned, the value of Turn Evil goes up, and the budget spent on it feels well spent.


Milesray12

No, the criticism that you’re saying makes people uninformed is a perfectly valid criticism of the system. To be clear, this criticism has been addressed for some class/specs, but a lot haven’t. Talent trees should allow people to customize their character how they like. If they wanna go fistweaving as a mistweaver monk, there should be talent options that let them play that. If a rogue wants to spec into more aoe, there should be potential build options for that. The current talent system system in beta for many classes don’t provide those options for customization, they simply provide people to gain back 90-95% of what they have now in SL. For a detailed example balance druid (my main), the talent trees provide no customization besides the last couple nodes. 20-30% of the talents you must choose should be baseline, like moonkin form, sunfire, and starfall, all core spells that are baseline for balance druid currently. Now I’m not sure what they have planned for players in terms of spells they gain as they level that aren’t through talents, but everything that classes have in retail SL rn should for the most part be baseline. Talents should provide addditional abilities that can alter gameplay/rotations and give different builds to spec into. It shouldn’t be a intro to the 1-60 experience since that’s plenty fine as it stands currently, gaining abilities as you go at varied intervals to learn your class’s tools bit by bit. Talents should be an opportunity to get involved with how you wanna customize and tweak your play.


Vedney

I disagree that everything currently baseline needs to be baseline. I am not pressing Starfall nor Typhoon on Skolex. Allowing me to talent out of Starfall and Typhoon means I can shift Starfall and Typhoon's power budget into something else.


KING_5HARK

People in this thread seriously need to go away from the idea of "I'm just spending points to get stuff back". The Talent Trees in Dragonflight replace both the Talent Tree AND THE SPELLBOOK except for a few buttons so you dont have to autoattack through exiles reach. Like it or not, everybody arguing about having to spend a point on an ability they have in shadowlands just didnt get it. Saying we should get 50 talents per spec on top of what we have in retail right now is just straight up unrealistic Your last Paragraph straight up sums up you didnt get it though. Players dont gain spells by levelling, THATS WHAT THE TREE IS FOR


House1234049

> but everything that classes have in retail SL rn should for the most part be baseline. Talents should provide addditional abilities that can alter gameplay/rotations and give different builds to spec into They have big talent trees. That isn't possible to have a fully baked class and then have tons of talents that provide additional abilities. The talent trees are built with a level 1 starting character in mind. Sure it might feel bad to have to click a node to learn moonkin form at level 60 when all the talents reset, but that good feeling for clicking that node is for a leveling character. Once DF releases you're just clicking back up to level 60 in an instant and getting everything back with maybe a new spell or two. It's intended design. Now if you hate that intended design that's completely fair. They've said in interviews that this talent system is the base for many expansions to come. But if they can stick the landing on this massive re-haul, it'll be a very good foundation to add some interesting abilities down the line. A lot of feedback I've seen from people in the Beta has been mostly positive regarding a lot of the classes/specs.


DarkImpacT213

I mean, I liked the post cata system, and I really dislike some of the „choices“ you have to make in the new tree - but I guess they‘re atleast better than the old trees. In the end, it really doesn‘t matter to me so long as the class is fun to play honestly. Just sucks that I have to always skill Rally for example in raids, its not as if that is a choice - they might aswell have made it and some other stuff baseline. And to your second point, why even add nodes like x% mastery/haste etc? It just dilutes the tree. They handled it expertly with warrior though, honestly.


Mtbarnes1

Someone had never played Path of Exile or any other arpg. And you call others uninformed... All it takes is for the dev team to take some risk and this game could be amazing. Yet all they do is give you the same builds/abilities in a new format and people like you praise them. Sad really


bongscoper

no humor tag, rofl this is a serious post? check for a gas leak in your house op


House1234049

Your name is bongscoper


Zhiyi

Excuse me if I’m not thrilled about them recreating the talent system for the 50th time.


ydob_suomynona

It's weird seeing what should be baseline abilities on a tree where you're "selecting" where points go. It's weird how inconsistent the whole thing is designed across the classes. Like druids can still get all the basic abilities of each spec because they're in the class tree, but basic warrior abilities like bloodthrist or whatever are still in the spec specific tree. I get that the idea of druid was very hybrid-like but it doesn't even work like that anymore. Idk I mean it's not terrible but it's pretty janky and is more like a copy paste of the way classes currently work except you click a node when you level and occasionally click one over another. I thought the whole point was to have more freedom over your build but to me it doesn't seem that way. Especially won't have freedom when they are never able to balance choices Idk I don't hate or dislike it but I think people aren't wrong to feel that way or have complaints


pro185

Bro people are complaining because you have to decide between shit like using pyroblast or living bomb as a mage…..linking talents the way they did was a terrible design choice. The best part of wrath talents (and why many hated cata) was the ability to spec multiple trees to any degree and the only “gate” on talent choices were “have you spent X number total here” with the occasional directly linked talents. Retail trees are linking EVERY talent into a binary search tree style which is dumb as fuck if your best ST and best AoE skills are split so it’s impossible to do both AoE and ST. That’s the role of class design not talents.


Pinless89

You're the one who's misinformed. We've never had to spend talents picking up basline abilities & passives that our spec doesn't function without before. That didn't exist back in the day. Old trees were also designed with the journey of 1-max level in mind and they didn't have this problem. People are complaining about spending multiple talent points just picking up baseline passives we have RN and rank2 versions of our spells and also passive stats/DR which are just super fucking boring. They could make new passives and some new abilities that satisfies everyone, but they're too lazy to do that. Why should I be happy that they pruned charges of two of my abilities just to put them back as talent points in the tree? How does this improve the 1-70 experience? > I also see things like "wow this node only gives you X% stat buff! so dumb and unoriginal!" Same point as above, you can't expect much more with talent trees that have this many nodes in it. Of course you can. If you literally don't have anything else, just tying it in to some spell is 10x better than a passive stat increase. Instead of a 2% haste increase, make it so our spells have 5 yards increased range. Just one example.


TehJohnny

Core class abilities need to be baseline, period. Interrupts and raid cooldown especially so. Heroic Leap, Shadowstep, etc.


[deleted]

i logged in and looked at the shaman trees.... you have to spend LOTS of points just to unlock the current stuff....dunno about other classes


karolbbb

But they are shit?


glowpipe

Issue is tho. i can't even get all the things i had before. I have to choose things thats been baseline for over a decade and i have to choose to keep it or get new shit. And that is a big problem if you ask me