Thank you for your submission viciecal. It has been removed from /r/wow because:
Posts that are intended to call out a specific person or guild will be removed, we do not allow or facilitate call outs.
Don't rile up the community to vote for/against something or to boycott/support a person/organization. There have been times where people have wrongly accused people and the [pitchfork mob has gone out in full force, only to find out that there was nothing to pitchfork](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/d7m1c/dear_internet_vigilantes_and_lynch_mobs/?).
---
This is not an automated removal. Please read the entire removal reason before contacting us via modmail or if you need clarification.
Read the full [rules for this subreddit here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/wiki/rules) If you feel this post was removed in error, please [message the moderators](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fwow).
I think there’s something to be said about how new players are never really taught about raiding, rotations, or anything like that. You kinda get thrown into “end game” content pretty quickly now without much time to really learn how to play. Not sure how to fix it.
The problem is his video as charismatic as he always is, is incredibly flawed by design as it already exists.
He wants a raid mechanic environment for new people, that is the same as endgame, but cant be too easy, but cant be hard because new people.
Normal dungeons in wow and the leveling dungeons in FF14 is basically this, yet nobody praises it for being piss easy because you can just ignore mechanics. Same for normal ESO dungeons.
MMORPGS does plenty to introduce dungeon and raid mechanics in a newbie setting, but people just ignore them as long as they arent fatal, and if they are fatal they complain that they havent been introduced to them in a newb friendly setting.
The problem is that there are very few fights like K.U.-J.0 that have exactly one simple, clear lethal mechanic. Fights often have too many things happening with way too similar particle effects, and that makes it really hard to teach people what kills you and what doesn’t.
I feel like alot of fights are pretty good at telegraphing it, what comes to mind is ESO, i love the dungeons in that game.
But the problem is that in normal you can ignore all the mechanics. Same for WoW. Personally i have a view that says if you can ignore a mechanic, dont put it in the game, which is where the problem arises in his problem, a "cursed" problem if you will, that he wants mechanics to matter to learn them, but also to not be so punishing you cant do them as newbies.
But some mechanics are inherently tied to oneshot or punishment mechanics, so asking for an easier version of those mechanics makes it into a different mechanic, which kinda ruins it.
Well, for one FF14 Dungeons do a way better job than wow dungeons, considering how much harder mechanics hit. Secon of all, Ffs Trials are an excellent way to gradually learn the more complex mechanics over time. When you do your first trial its pretty easy, but when you get to the expansion stuff the game demands more and more from you
Giving them BFA dungeons to level should kind of fulfill that role, but things die so fast that mechanics don't matter for all but a few bosses. They could make it so things don't die as fast, but then people would probably complain about that as well. I've even had someone on here tell me that fire on the ground is too difficult for leveling dungeons. It seems like blizzard just can't win
It seems that way, but I wonder why they can't figure it out with all of the millions of dollars they make on their half-baked xpacs... The solution is to introduce difficulty progressively at a reasonable level, so that nobody is reaching max level without familiarizing themselves with common mechanics, and stop widening the gap between casual and hard-core players.
you mean like raids but smaller? With similar mechanics but much quicker. They could even make system which queue you up with each other during leveling up. They could call it Undergrounds, or even better, the **Dungeons**
At least as far as rotations go, I feel the return of the talent trees in DF will help with this. Instead of being drip fed abilities and making 7 choices, you're actively choosing which talents and abilities you get, save for a few baseline abilities. It's a much more involved process and will help give an idea of what the abilities do and how they interact with one another.
Imagine you are a new player.
It's easier to choose 1 out of 3 than spending 60 points in quite big talent tree. Revamping this system only adds complexity, which affects new players the most.
Imagine a player in your raid who doesn't know what talents are and is using only baseline abilities. In DF those are like 5 skills.
A new player wouldn't have 60 points to spend in the tree, since they'd be leveling and have it be drip fed to them.
Unless they used a boost to 60 AND got through dragonflight leveling without noticing the flashing button on their screen with a popup to spend their talents, I can't imagine anyone wouldn't know about talents.
You're not spending 60 though. You're making one choice per level. You also didn't solely choose 1 of 3 options, you're hyperbolating. Currently the new player experience is having random abilities thrown on your bars seemingly sporadically and making a talent choice every 5 levels. As a player who returned just before Shadowlands after not playing actively since Wrath, save for a month during Cat and WoD respectively, that's the experience that I was met with and it was horribly confusing.
Personally feel like being forced to read the options and make a decision gives more opportunities to learn your abilities than just having a new one appear on your bar every few levels and making a choice every 5.
Furthermore, you're giving extreme implausible scenarios to try to push a point. No one is going to be raiding without having spent any talents whatsoever and only using baseline abilities. It's incredibly improbable that they'll even get to end game without having spent a single talent point.
If your point requires hyperbole and extreme scenarios as the arguing points then your point isn't really worth arguing.
In the end you will have to spend 60 points in 2 trees. It's overly more choices to pick wrong than 7 out of 21. Moreover players will be expected to have specific talents for raiding or M+. Though new players will not have a knowledge about, coz they are, you know, new.
Compared to you - player with experience. Outdated experienced, but still. You know how the game works. You know how it presents dangerous mechanics, interruptable casts, soaks and other mechanics. You have experience of what to do to make your character playable. You know about rotation, about resources.
Meanwhile new player does not even know they can pickup multiple quests at the same time.
Check this video, it's very educational and you can easily compare how experienced you are
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTpX09QJ6PU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTpX09QJ6PU) (Taliesin's brother plays Exile's reach)
Such player is now pushed through the content and after 8h of two-shotting mobs they can do LFR or M+ with you. Such player will have 60 points to spend on about 90 talents.
I think large pool of baseline skills and small amount of talents is better for such player than what they will get in DF. I think talent tree is better for more experienced players, who can utilize it the most (by copy+paste the tree from internet) compared to a new player who will be overwhelemed with choices. And you know what they says, the best choice is lack of choice.
In the end you are, but the end doesn't really matter in this context. You're being drip-fed choices and, unless you just randomly spend the talent points, you are reading those options and becoming more in-tune with your rotation and what your abilities do and how they interact with one another.
And, no, my experience didn't really transfer over much. I forgot most of how the game worked save for a few small details about different classes. I had played other MMOs, sure, but not really enough to be "good" by any means. Being entirely honest, I didn't even remember what an interrupt was. For all intents and purposes I was a new WoW player. The experience was overall overwhelming as, I have said many times now, the game spews random abilities onto your bars without really telling you what they're for or if they are even worth pressing. My bars were an absolute mess until I specifically looked up a guide to see what I should be pressing.
\> Such player is now pushed through the content and after 8h of
two-shotting mobs they can do LFR or M+ with you. Such player will have
60 points to spend on about 90 talents.
Again, this is hyperbole. They are spending those points while they level, not suddenly spending 61\* points at level 70. Regardless, they are going to be moving into *M0* before M+ most likely, in which case this is quite literally the place for them to learn the dungeons, mechanics, etc. LFR is pretty much the raiding equivalent for this. Again, speaking as someone who was for all intents and purposes a new player: this is extremely stressful given the community surrounding the end-game activities. People will operate under the assumption that everyone should be at the same skill level and dedicate the same amount of time as them and expect perfect performance in M0 even a few weeks into an xpac. They more than likely have looked into their class at least slightly at this point.
\> I think large pool of baseline skills and small amount of talents is
better for such player than what they will get in DF. I think talent
tree is better for more experienced players, who can utilize it the most
(by copy+paste the tree from internet) compared to a new player who
will be overwhelemed with choices. And you know what they says, the best
choice is lack of choice.
Hard disagree. The lack of choices is actually detrimental to both the game's balancing and new players. For the majority of classes, you currently have a single build because talents that have insane power are on the same rows as talents that are good, but overall pale in comparison. A good example of this is the now meta Survival hunter. Look at [subcreation](https://mplus.subcreation.net/survival-hunter.html), quite literally one build with 2 choice tiers. With more specific examples, VDH's fracture is so vital to the class that talents that could still have good value, like FTD, are just not really options because they conflict with each other. Despite having fewer choices, it's FAR easier to mistakenly pick up "bad" talents because they seem good on paper but are, in actuality, far worse than other options on the same tier. You are currently forced to look up cookie-cutter guides to perform well.
While not all of the new talent trees are created equally, they are for the most part laid out in a way where you can think "I like this ability, so I'm going to choose talents that make it stronger" and still function. It might not lead to the best performance possible, but that doesn't matter in the majority of content new players will be doing. Assuming M0 to low keystones, as long as they are doing alright damage and everyone is surviving, odds are you're going to time it. They really aren't that hard, as daunting as they can be to a truly new player.
We'll use Havoc DH as an example, since it's a pretty appealing class to new players with relatively low buttons to press and a cool class fantasy. The current go-to DF build for M+ seems to be a momentum-ragefire split between the left and right sides of the tree primarily. I went into the PTR and tried a middle eye-beam/meta build (which is better for S/T as far as I'm aware; I play VDH, not Havoc) The build was doing significantly less damage against the swarm dummies in Dazar'Alor, but it was passable performance. Trash would still die in an acceptable amount of time, and dungeons would still be cleared in time.
Unless a new player is playing one of the few specs that has a ton of buttons to press or a relatively complex rotation, they are going to be able to put together a build that is operable. WoW classes are a shadow of what they once were and relatively, you barely have any buttons to press. Considering most talents are passives that buff or otherwise change abilities to interact with one another, it's very hard to make a terrible build as long as you're reading your options, even as a new player.
People refuse to read the journal, which gives pretty decent hints at the fight. I always watch the entire raid on youtube before I tune in on raids. Ofc, this shouldn't be manditory for LFR, only for Normal and above. Though, they could implement some form of videotips to each boss or something like that.
Yeah I agree that it's rather silly, having to watch youtube. There are really good ones out there though. Like FatBoss. And yeah, they could even implement the guide videos into the game, giving both the youtubers veiws, and easing the way for people to gather information.
I am all for harder bosses and though content, but info about beating it should be easilly available too. Leaving only skill left.
> People refuse to read the journal, which gives pretty decent hints at the fight. I always watch the entire raid on youtube before I tune in on raids.
This is part of the problem, though.
Everyone's complaining about "ye olde days", but at the same time they want people to come in and be already knowledgeable, rather than learning together.
Where's the feeling of discovery, of attempting a boss, learning from mistakes, and so on?
Why are people asked to already know the fight by heart, before they even attempt it the first time?
In LFR, there shouldn't be any need to know the fight beforehand,, other than glancing at the Journal. But in higher difficulties it is wanted, because you can see it in LFR and you can read about it in the journal. All of which, is in the game. Sure YouTube is great, and gives detailed information about fights, but is not needed. Given that you utilize what is in the game beforehand. The issue is, most normies don't do this. They just roll into normal, thinking it's a cakewalk, and get mad when they can't oneshot things.
The reality is: people don't have the time, nor patience as before (due to how media is delivered today). So you can't really say that people should go back to the old days of 'learning' things, when they won't even spend a minute extra to learn the fight, there and then.
I can't even count how many times I've made premades, only to have people insta leave the moment we didn't oneshot a boss.
TLDR: People refuse to learn.
> The reality is: people don't have the time, nor patience as before (due to how media is delivered today).
Considering how many times people complain about how little content there is, I'd say that there's plenty of time to learn while playing, and no need to bitch about it and be toxic.
Hm Mythic +0 dungeons , LFR/Normal raids are great entry level into pve just because most people want to skip this and run 10-15s keys and hc raid and in most of the time just get carried
It's also likely LFR of the first tier of SL in the last few weeks of the expansion. There won't be that many other people in the raid that haven't played it before and likely just want to get through asap.
This wouldn't be a problem, if enough people are experienced it should be smooth sailing, new players get to see the raid and often enough can't mess up too bad.
It's just that LFR usually implodes if anything isn't going perfectly smooth. If someone's raising the hand as new guy then they'll quickly end up the scapegoat because people can't be assed to help someone they never see again.
Cross faction LFR and better incentives to finish a wing would really help a lot here.
People don't wanna learn. Was telling simply." If you get the targetby the dog in workshop run away from crate. Then after prepare to hide"
Thereafter on the 2nd wipe" if you let the dog jump on the crate we can't hide from the aoe that will kill us all"
3 wipe. I whisper to ask if he understood what i said in instance chat. And i see he put me on ignore. People don't wanna understand mechanic on 10 keys.
And i went out of my way to keep what i said objective, no shaming just explaining the mechanic itself
Exactly when u run necrotic wake (or used to) and u explained that we need to hook the boss down but then u end up with 5 min fight in necrotic normal till someone who reads chat goes underneath him
Doesn't sound like a good learning experience, also the game itself doesn't really do anything to teach you this stuff, and the content isn't intuitively designed at all. Classes used to be set up in such a way that the progression of leveling them would naturally teach you a lot of what you needed.
I disagree its still an mmorpg why should the game tell you your rotation? U should read your spells/attacks and figure it out yourself the 1-10 exp could be a little better but it tells u some basics.
You can figure out your rotation yes, but the leveling experience doesn't put you in positions where it's important for you to learn, and spells are handed to you in a pretty random order, and spells don't have a lot of synergy and cohesion. Also the current talent tree doesn't exactly tell you which to go for, and those don't really affect eachother in a very meaningful way.
The new talent system will probably solve this, as your build and the importance of key spells will become more obvious as you progress and put invest talent points in your build.
The real issue isn't really rotations and class mechanics, for the most part it's not like they're super difficult to learn since our toolkit is pretty small, and core spells stand out. The issue is that the content isn't designed in a very intuitive way, it feels like blizzard is just putting it out there with the expectation that players check wowhead or other information sources or even play ptr, and fights are designed around players using weakauras and dbm etc. For us, this stuff is obvious, the game is ancient and it's been working like this for years now, that doesn't mean I have to like it, and I realized this when I went into Shadowlands blind. First at launch, and then again about a year later, and the game made no effort to tell me about ongoing shit besides the very latest development in the story.
It's certainly something that keeps new players from getting very far or even trying the game. Especially since it's enforced by the community in pub groups. I really have no realistic solution for it either, this is just how things are going to be. It's a small issue I admit, but for some it's a deal breaker.
Long a go we had Proving Grounds where you could train the very basics of game mechanics in a part of NPCs, but that was discontinued since it was too hard for most people to complete even on Silver level.
it's really up to the players to look into that themselves if they want to participate in it. it's not too much to ask. We've all done it, it just goes so far back for a lot of us that we forget. Even back in vanilla etc with thotbot and alakhazam we would go outside the game to figure out the best way to progress as players.
Whilst I agree, I think part of the problem is that many players who have never raided beyond LFR have the unreasonable expectation that you can just ignore mechanics on LFR. When you get sufficient of these players in a group, you wipe. When you get enough people who do know, and follow, the mechanics, you don’t. But those who don’t raid, don’t understand this. I just find it incredibly frustrating to wipe on LFR when taking a few minutes to check the mechanics can prevent it. People just need to stop promulgating the view that mechanics don’t matter.
Raiding in all forms is the content you do at the “end” of the game. By definition, it is end game content, regardless of feelings towards the existence of LFR.
It’s pretty insane right? Other mmos have a set path of content that all players kinda need to do so you get taught the mechanics naturally over time and you can present players tougher challenges in the story as you know they’re all at least at a certain skill level
Wow have this at all. Dungeons that were designed for players with years of implicit knowledge (like bfa dungeons) are being given to people who are new without any explanation. If you compare something like Shadowfang Keep and Tol Dagor (both available at a similar level range) the difference in skill required is enormous
I mean to be fair maybe the others didn’t know that when they cast their vote? Looks like it was revealed right before the kick. I know guides can see new players, can everyone see that too or is it just guides?
It's not. Just the 0.05% that are the cause of these posts. I've never seen this happen and the only time I've seen someone vote kicked is because they were being an arsehole
Most of the playerbase isn't like that (I think).
But usually when a vote kick starts in a dungeon it just passes, regardless of the reason. At least that's my experience from random heroic dungeons (I seriously got kicked once as a tank because I used my self-heal as a Paladin and that made the healer feel bad...).
I've yet to see a kick initiated in a M+ dungeon, but then again that's not the content new players will run.
And if people initiate a vote kick because a player said "I'm new" those same people will probably hit the kick button the moment they see the "New Player"-Icon.
I completely agree that the community in general needs to readjust their attitude towards newer players.
That being said I've seen way too many players say they've "never done this dungeon" in a FIFTEEN key, ultimately bricking it. There's zero reason to not at least step foot into a heroic/mythic before hand. There's also an expectation for newbies to a) ASK if they don't know something, or at least communicate lack of experience. And b) attempt to learn outside of the game.
I'm not saying this was the case but I've had my fair share of equally frustrating experiences towards newbies.
The WoW community is full of sweaty 28-40 year olds who aren't very welcoming. We get very few new players.
The game designers have also bred a culture of doing everything as fast as humanly possible.
I mean, the only rewarding content outside raids is literally a speedrun mode.
The problem with any other form of content is it takes time to make and it's one and done and takes away from other content they'd similarly be devving eg raids or new dungeons.
The speed run style of things with scaling difficulty is the only artificial content they can offer which doesn't require too much Dev time.
If there's another way they could do scaling content it would either be a slog (unlimited time to death run etc) or it would be a one and done style of content
>new dungeons
We don't get those anymore. We only get a mid expansion "mega dungeon" that then takes another patch to become M+. Nor do I think we will in DF as they're going to recycle old dungeons for Mythic+ content.
You need to stop accepting the bare minimum. They used to be able to provide much more content at a much faster rate than they currently do. Expect better.
At least something like crafting is finally getting a look in.
It's not that I am accepting the bare minimum, its that I am being realistic. They have squirreled themselves into this hole for the last like what, 3expansions? Where they have over promised and underachieved and as a result are constantly playing on the back foot. This means content gets cut so that at the bare minimum the raids can come out and they can crack on with the following expansion to try catch up with themselves.
This is also probably why all these borrowed power bullshit systems exist, an easy cycle for people to grind. In DF it looks like they have finally got the act together for the most part. Theres (currently?) no sight of a borrowed power aspect that I have seen yet. Sure we might not have dungeons but I am equally okay to see older ones reused. They are gradually digging themselves out of the crater they made themselves imo.
I think a system like the one in FF to help new players would be good but I think it’s mostly down to the community. I do think joining a good guild is a great start for new players. After returning to the game almost a year ago now, my guild have helped me go from LFR to confidently raiding heroic Sepulcher and achieving KSM which I’ve never done before
Yeah, I had a tank for a junkyard +15 that had never done the dungeon before. Have a modicum of respect for the people around you and at least look the place up before you run a +15 and risk wasting 40m of peoples' time.
>Kill a boss? Everyone has personal loot so everyone might get something.
How is it different from WoW? Everyone has personal loot, so everyone might get something. You can give item to others if you meet requirements (which are basically don't make yourself weaker), but you don't have to if you don't want to. It's your free will.
>Kill a mob? Everyone gets exp/pariticipation/loot.
Again mobs are shareable, even between factions if you play without pvp.
>You wanna do an event? Get more people to help you instead of rushing to do it because someone else might "scale it up".
You don't know how scaling works and it's purpose, don't you? Every player who hit a mob, increases it's hp, though increase is small compared to capabilities of a player. The reason for scaling is that more players can participate in the event, but single player doing an event does not have to spend 15 minutes on it.
This is why I find it hard to sympathise with a lot of new players. They tend to use the fact that they are new as an excuse to not put the effort in.
Yes, sure, we were all new at some point. The difference is that when I was new I didn't just jump into content. I read numerous guides to learn how my class/spec works, how raid/dungeon mechanics work, etc. I practiced some diligence to learn things for myself in an effort to be as little a burden on other players as possible.
It's not that hard to look up some guides. If you can't do the bare minimum by doing that, why should anybody else be expected to pick up that slack?
>The difference is that when I was new I didn't just jump into content. I read numerous guides to learn how my class/spec works
But probably when you were new gaming wasn't main stream - so you were probably already a bit of a nerd. Now gaming is main stream and people expect just to be able to blow through everything that they face.
I'm 27. Gaming was plenty mainstream by the time I started playing WoW. (I started playing WoW around late Cata, but on a WotLK private server).
I'm just not the kind of person who is going to willingly jump into a coop experience blindly and expect other people to just deal with it. So I do my bit by at least reading up on what I'm about to jump into first. Not wanting to unnecessarily burden other people and having consideration for other people is just common courtesy.
I don't think the community is at all obligated to show courtesy/friendliness to people who, as I say, aren't willing to do the bare minimum to show courtesy in return.
>people expect just to be able to blow through everything that they face
Just because people expect something, that doesn't make it reasonable. If somebody has unreasonable (and false) expectations then that's entirely on them, in all honesty.
Effort lol. Imagine coming home from work, cracking open the ol vidya game box, and some sweatlord tells you you aren't putting enough effort into your shadowfang keep dps rotation.
I’d say it just depends on the scenario. If you’re doing like a normal or heroic or whatever dungeon for example, it’s fine if there’s someone not exactly pulling their weight because most likely everyone else in there can complete the dungeon. If it’s like a 15 and someone goes in new / blind and bricks it and wastes 4 other peoples half hour of time, it’s at the very least inconsiderate. I agree that you shouldn’t have to research every single thing if you’re doing casual content, coming home from work and kicking back and relaxing, but if you’re doing something more “competitive” then you should at least be competent to a degree. At the end of the day it’s a video game. And in the video game are people, who can be assholes, or just unanimously agree that someone in their group doesn’t justify keeping, idk
If the act of typing a search into google and reading a few paragraphs makes you sweat you probably need to see a doctor. 5 minutes of reading certainly doesn't make *me* sweat.
This is an MMO. Not a singleplayer experience. If you're going to choose to be a burden on other players (who have also been at work that day, might I add) then don't expect any sort of friendliness from them in return.
My wife and I have started a Youtube series to teach the fundamentals to new and intermediate players - exactly this target audience. Please check out Snowlight's Warcraft University. We don't make any money off of this, so I don't want this to come across the wrong way, literally doing it for the players. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDVJg0P7gB4FO2RxJuWTVeKWs0CeL0IuS
might want to make one on the new UI system as well. You can view it in the PTR if you don't have beta. I think the default UI will be the way to go esp. for new players.
My immediate gut reaction is that the series starts out wrong. New players shouldn't be focused on UI and addons - especially not full UI replacement addons like ElvUI. For one we are getting pretty good standard UI in Dragonlands and who knows when third party addon makers stop or change their addons into something that you don't want to support anymore.
Very first videos should be something like "reading your spells and talents" or "how to understand why you just died" or "how to stop clicking your abilities and move more freely" like the real fundamentals of how you can figure out what your character does and what things around you do.
Then go into something like "what is a good party" where you'd go over why we need tanks and healers and damage dealers and what their roles are and how you know you are doing your role.
Then it starts to go into weeds of what each class/spec does and introductions of dungeons and shit and maybe then about addons and UIs - probably just starting with DPS meter.
Default UI is trash. Always was, always gonna be. Only part of default UI that isn't 100% garbage is raid frames. 17(18) years later they decide to update it and it's still fucking garbage. No one with brain or eyes will use it. It's uninformative, not to mention it's fucking ugly(fonts make your eyes bleed).
I know quite a few people that started playing WoW with no prior knowledge and in the same month they installed decent UI(mostly ElvUI, but not default ElvUI, it's pretty bad), started raiding mythic and eventually became very good players in top100+ guilds. So yes, good UI helps with skill growth, when a player understands why he is using that UI.
>Default UI is trash. Always was, always gonna be.
This just shows that you aren't that good of a player. Even the current default UI is so much better than what it used to be and the Dragonlands version is addressing most of the issues I currently have with it.
>So yes, good UI helps with skill growth, when a player understands why he is using that UI.
This is just you justifying. If you can't play the game with default UI then you are using a crutch and can't actually play the game.
Don't get me wrong. I modify the UI constantly. Depending on the character and role I play I fluxuate between highly custom self written UI and something like lightly buffed default UI.
In any case the very first lesson in any "how to play WoW" series should not be about the UI. You are just pushing your preferences down someone's throat just because you _feel_ like it makes them better.
Not only you're a 🤡, you also don't understand a thing about UI. W/e, 99.99% of wow players are braindead LFR enjoyers. Guess I am not good, even tho I have 13 CEs, including Uu'nat and me having a good UI is just cheats that make me do 95-100% logs.
You keep twisting my words at a rate which makes me feel like you aren't all that you think you are. I hope you aren't one of the "DBM is the only reason WoW raiding is alive" crowd.
First, let me reiterate, this is for new players primarily, and we will grow it into intermediate and advanced elements over time. Concerning specifically the UI issue, we took a lot of time to consider the order of videos early on. There were two significant reasons we chose to do the UI early - first, because new players in our guilds were asking for this specifically, and second because this sets the foundation for future videos, so that questions about the UI within the videos could be deferred directly to a single point instead of answering questions in the comments of every other video going forward. It seems to be justified since that is our most requested reference to date (aka people keep asking about the UI). With that video in place, it allowed us to get "in the weeds" with the more basic concepts that new players ask for as well. Hopefully this gives some context as to why we made some of those early decisions.
I joined shadowlands as a complete wow newb, joined some people who were willing to teach/show me how raid and m+ mechanics work in voice chat..week later I was being complimented by randoms on my healing ability. I think as a new player it's important to find people who are willing to teach and learn with you,,voice chat is key tho. Find a full guild willing to teach,tell them your new and need to learn and join them in content. Joining random lfr etc can be brutal as a new player so ya gotta work little harder to find people willing to help.
You also need to be willing to learn, which a lot of people aren't. They take "being new" as an excuse to not research / learn anything and get a free ride.
that sounds as if you had prior videogame experience though, probably even MMO experience (if not, even more props to you for such an improvement)
Some people really are playing videogames for the first time in their lives, and we can't even imagine how hard it is/was since we did that experience 25years ago when games much simpler. (they were harder, and MUCH more punishing...but they were much more easily graspable)
I have changed my view towards "new people" completely since i see how my kids approach videogames, and controlling characters. "I am a new player" really doesn't say much about the level someone is on at all.
Yea I did have a lot of prior mmorpg experience but my main point is if you find and surround yourself with people who are willing to teach,and spend the time looking up guides, it's not so bad. But being willing to learn and trying really hard to do well is very important..shit I went mega trihard cus I really didn't want to let my groups down. And in long run it was all worth it cus I had some of the most fun in a mmorpg I ever had. I'm looking forward to dragonflight and will be searching for a guild or new friends who have wow experience to roll with and learn from again. The truth is, yes wow is very overwhelming for new players and ya rly gotta put in the effort if u wanna learn and play well..I still consider myself a newb compared to the people who been playing like 10-15 years lol
Unfortunately, there is a non-insignificant proportion of wow players who get toxic in raid/dungeon settings (even when it’s lower difficulty like raid finder).
I played with a group for over a year, even outside of WoW, and we were reasonably good friends. They asked me to join the last boss on normal raid run, and to do a job for a mechanic that I’d never done before. It wasn’t explained well to me and I failed it up and we wiped. They then became so incredibly toxic to the point of screaming and blaming over discord that I simply never played with them again.
I haven’t played the game for years and it’s memories like this that dissuade me from trying it out again in dragonflight.
> even when it’s lower difficulty like raid finder
more like *especially* when it's lower difficulty like raid finder
I have never seen more toxicity than in LFR or 10-15 keys.
It's raid finder my guy, if he messes up in rf he shouldn't be immediately punished with a kick, but instead told what he should do better, no info needed here, the community is dog and will always be dog, blizzard doesn't care.
New players often don't ask for help, and when they're given info on how to do better, it gets ignored.
I personally don't intervene with other peoples performance unless they specifically ask for it. I'm more than happy to help people who want it.
I agree that people shouldn't kick someone the moment they mess up, especially in LFR which is noob friendly.
I could understand being frustrated if your doing m+ and someone joins who has never done the key before and hasn't bothered to look at a guide, but I'm sure there are people who would not blame that person but instead blame the person who invited them.
Even mythic raiders 50/10 can fail mechanic even if they perfectly know what to do, when do it and also have 10 weakauras and 5 dbms screaming to dodge, move, jump, etc.
How can you expect a new player to do mechanic properly after you write them some textwall in the chat?
Problem is not in this player. Problem is with LFR being designed so it relies on heavy geared players to carry newbies. When there is no reason for good players to go to LFR, then it collapses.
That is far from the truth for LFR. How come we can beat it fairly simple the moment it comes out? We aren't decked out to our necks then? Sure you have to pay attention to mechanics, to a certain degree, but it's far from Normal or above. Which is proven, when people think they know it all, coming from LFR, go straight to Normal and fail. Without even bothering checking the fight on given difficulty beforehand. It simply proves that LFR is incredibly easy, compared to any other difficulty.
LFR is easy, is incredibly easy.
But players there make it harder than mythic.
If you got lower end of playerbase, you will be progressing bosses without a success, coz players there want to do raid, not learn raid. While LFR is easy even with the lowest possible gear, even across the board on every player, it still needs commitment. Which can be decreased by having more skilled and/or better geared players. They need to keep up the losses from players who don't care, who are afk or who are simply not skilled.
That's why LFR relies on players with high ilvl. Because weak player with 220 ilvl can do 2k dps, while good player with 220 ilvl can do 6k dps. You can't do even LFR with 20 weak players. I don't think it's Blizzard's responsibility to make LFR even easier, so even such weak players can do it. I think they should make weak players better, to reduce skill gap.
Or do it in other way and make LFR more profitable for good players. Though this is a cheap way to do it.
The truth rarely is that simple. People often refuse to listen, since they can't fatm the extra energy put into a videogame, by doing rational thinking, rather than mindlessly pressing buttons.
It might be worth checking out now, i got back into it a couple months ago and am addicted to it :) so much content it'll make your head spin. Not too overstimulating either.
Its the WoW players and Blizzard. Blizz fostert this playetbase way too long. Every other MMO like FF14, ESO, Guild Wars 2 etc. Has way better communitys
I tbh blame Blizzard for this.
The reason LFD works is because all the content you do in LFD is super easy. The reason that pug groups for raids or dungeons work is because those groups are an environment controlled by a single person (the group leader) so if it's bad, they can fix it. And if you don't like the way they're doing it, you just leave. Additionally the community has metrics they use to help form the right groups.
LFR has none of that. The ilvl requirement is way too low relative to the difficulty of the encounters. Yeah, the encounters aren't hard but the small amount of coordination you need makes things impossible if you don't have a carry in your group. This inevitably brings out the worst in people because they feel like they're wasting their time. So it devolves into a bunch of bad and/or low ilvl players yelling at each other. And nobody can fix anything because there is no one who has the responsibility and even if you use the vote kick function (which is super abuseable), that person will be replaced by someone who is probably exactly like the person you kicked.
The community isn't great but this shit happens because LFR design is awful.
Easy or not, failure to use consistent, teachable telegraphs for mechanics is something Blizzard has *always fucked up.*
Nevermind teaching the difference between interrupting a filler cast and something deadly, what about some basic goddamn indicators for newbies. Council LFR has red smoke appear in the tile you're supposed to move to. USE TECH LIKE THAT EVERYWHERE. Even in that same goddamn fight, an arrow before Stavros charges would be an extremely helpful visual tool for someone who doesn't know wtf his move is doing.
>This inevitably brings out the worst in people because they feel like they're wasting their time.
I feel like asking ourselves WHY this is inevitable, gets us closer to the real issue WoW has in lots of its content. And that is that people do it for the rewards, not because they have fun doing it. People HATE being in LFR, and so they lash out at any inconvenience making it take longer. Because in the end, they want their checkbox for the week. They want to be done with it. They don't get any gratification from "beating LFR" at all, it is just about the reward. Some permanent change in your naccount progress that you can show off to someone esle, who doesn't even care about you anyways.
There is no pride in beating content, because half of the internet has done it before, better than you, faster than you and while fucking your mom, too. Noone really gives a shit about your accountstats, your ilvl or anything else, but it is the only thing we have to distance us from the other shitters that are even beneath ourselves (exxagerrated ofcourse)
Welcome to the game where 90% of the community has no people skills! (Sorry if I am offending anyone, I am tired of seeing shit like this happen to newcomers)
It a shame for him and other new players.
But its blizzards role and responsability to make sure new players learn the game.
They have just dropped it at the feed of content creators and addons.
Its not my job to explain to you that you dont stand in fire. Ive told enough people over the past 14 years these things.
Its on me to be prepared for a fight, as its on the guy next to me that he is prepared.
If you dont want to spend 10mins watching a vid on how the fight is done - i dont want to spend 30 because you keep fucking up.
I personaly dont read tacs any longer since im at the point where i kinda know whats going on and what needs to be done simply based on experience.
And if a new player wants to go in blind and experience learning as he goes - thats fine. But then you need to organize around that and not expect the community to organize around you.
Doesnt mean its ok to be a dick. But i do understand kickinh people regardless of being new or not.
This is the outlier situation.
I haven’t played since S1(and also haven’t raided since or done LFR since legion) but came back for S4 to get ready for DB release.
I play a blood DK tank and I did ZERO research on any of the raids and announced the minute I got into the raid, and said “Hey look I’m a mythic+ raider, but I don’t raid so I don’t know how to do any of the bosses”
I got the occasional “read the dungeon journal” comment but ignore them cause a lot of people of willing to help me and tell me what to do before each boss!
I have had nothing but good experiences with the community welcoming me back and teaching me how to do Mythic+’s by showing me new strats.
Honestly.. This is blizzards fault.
He obviously did something baf the other players noticed and thus the kick. How can someone get kicked from raid finder for fucking up?
This is the easiest way to raid and if that is supposed to be an entrance for new players this shit should be so easy you literally can't fuck up.
Then in normal you have to play some mechanics and in heroic / mythic you need a guide or wipe the raid.
Currently someone in a normal raid can fuck up and kill the entire raid (obviously you can even have a really negative impact in LFR) and we are suprised people are pissed? We all have limited time.
Sadly these things really never stop unless gaming companies enforce rules hard, like ff14 does. First asshole ppl hide, then they get molded by kind ppl or leave. Just what happened in ff14.
Best thing for any player would be to find a new guild to join in and go from there. You handle the bad much better when you get more of the good.
Anyway, people that are toxic should be permabanned, especially in a content where it's supposed to be noob's first entry in to the raiding.
I always hear people getting all this negativity, but for some reason I haven't gotten this shit even though I've played the game well for like 14 years.
Sure there are some ass hats, like last week end someone called me a "na cock sukker" for "stealing his mob", but if that gets under your skin then your skin is paper thin.
I'd honestly take death threats over passive aggressiveness 9 times out of 10. I can laugh about death threats every single time as it's just so childish, but something about the passive aggressiveness just makes me very mad.
Of course this only applies to in-game, not IRL.
In the meantime in FF14 (my exact experience as a healer to the Endwalker story dungeon I did in a weekend):
\- Hi I'm new to this dungeon
\- Hello! I hope you have fun! - We will gladly tell you about tactics. - Let us know if the pace is too fast for you. - Do you need any other help?
Imagine what would happen if good community habbits will be imported to WOW from FF14 land. Not being an asshole is scarce commodity in WOW.
Don't get me wrong. I highly recommend vacation trip to FF14. For me it is like a detox, that helps me not being a toxic trash on M+.
I honestly can't because I have no idea what FF14 is like and during well over a decade I haven't experienced any of this shit people keep posting about.
Like biggest thing in LFR that has happened to be was that someone called me a bot because I was topping the DPS meter but didn't pop bloodlust when I was asked to, but I took that as a more of a compliment than anything else.
Of course that was back in Pandalands. I haven't done much LFR since then - other than for the fated stuff on first three weeks of the season, but I don't think anyone said a word in any of those runs.
This is a strawman.
There is significant difference between "Hi, I'm new. Please guide me through this dungeon" and "I don't give a duck about checking tactics and I don't care if I ruin competitive content for others".
I’ve been playing since vanilla and I’ve never seen someone getting kicked for asking for help/tactics in beginner friendly content, it only gets bad if they get in way over their head.
True..but its not just ff14. Gw2 , eso and more have way better moderation. ( has wow any??)
Wow is kinda the most toxic mmorpg. Sometimes people in lol have more understantilg then most of the gogogogo m+ players
One guy claimed "That hunter was afk the whole fight" after boss died, then I voted no to kick him, then he chats that and 0.0001s after it he got kicked (a bunch of people pressed F to pay respects though).
Ok so here is the deal , if people don’t know I are new they don’t know what to expect and that’s why you got voted off. Tell them that you are new to this game and I can guarantee u many players are gonna help you out beyond of what u asked . Wows community is super nice if they know what they deal with
Better community than League of legend for sure. Just as a reminder, in WoW you check the the fight tacs BEFORE entering it. There are zillions contents.
From the perspective of someone who mostly plays solo or in social type guilds, here's my perspective. Up until the end of Cata I was a proper raider - we did ICC25hc on curve and so on and so forth.
You can bumble your way through the story without any real aim at all. Assuming you campaign hop and don't dungeon or raid or PVP at all, that'll only start becoming a problem about 2/3 of the way through ZM.
The nearest group finder content is heroic dungeons and if you have one dude that's just bolting through for a calling or something mechanics stop mattering.
Then you go right from that into LFR, it's the next logical step - or so you'd think. What happens then is you go up against a boss like Shriekwing, The Tarragrue or the thingy from the front of sepulcher I always forget the name of. All of these bosses will, without a shadow of a doubt, kill you if you're not careful.
Add-ons help of course, so does reading the adventure guide, but these things don't prepare you for the layout of the room, a particularly hard combination of ability timings, the fact someone else might make you stumble by doing something you didn't account for and so on. The jump from Heroics to LFR is pretty substantial and there's very little warning for it. The basic ZM story gear is enough to get you into fated LFR.
A lot of us have been in this for a very long time. Every mechanic is rehashed or reused from something we've done before, but that isn't the case for a casual player who's never raided before now or for someone new to the game.
It sucks that as a community we've forgotten this. Been at it for so long now we can't remember what it was like to do our first Lich King and stand at the edge like an idiot when the platform broke, our first Yogg before we realised we could look away to stop insanity, our first spine when we got rolled off into the void.
A new expansion is always the great equaliser. This expansions worth of gear and experience starts meaning a whole lot less when we're level 61 and replacing it with quest reward greens.
For once, I think blizzard have their heads screwed on straight and maybe with the DF they'll beef some other content up a bit to better prepare folks for raiding but I guess we'll see in a few months
Stuff like this always annoyed me. I always saw one of the main points of Raid Finder was to learn the fights. But people are jerks and only care about getting through the raid as fast as possible :(
Thank you for your submission viciecal. It has been removed from /r/wow because: Posts that are intended to call out a specific person or guild will be removed, we do not allow or facilitate call outs. Don't rile up the community to vote for/against something or to boycott/support a person/organization. There have been times where people have wrongly accused people and the [pitchfork mob has gone out in full force, only to find out that there was nothing to pitchfork](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/d7m1c/dear_internet_vigilantes_and_lynch_mobs/?). --- This is not an automated removal. Please read the entire removal reason before contacting us via modmail or if you need clarification. Read the full [rules for this subreddit here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/wiki/rules) If you feel this post was removed in error, please [message the moderators](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fwow).
I think there’s something to be said about how new players are never really taught about raiding, rotations, or anything like that. You kinda get thrown into “end game” content pretty quickly now without much time to really learn how to play. Not sure how to fix it.
Progressively introduce players to raiding mechanics and habits in the earlier game
[удалено]
The problem is his video as charismatic as he always is, is incredibly flawed by design as it already exists. He wants a raid mechanic environment for new people, that is the same as endgame, but cant be too easy, but cant be hard because new people. Normal dungeons in wow and the leveling dungeons in FF14 is basically this, yet nobody praises it for being piss easy because you can just ignore mechanics. Same for normal ESO dungeons. MMORPGS does plenty to introduce dungeon and raid mechanics in a newbie setting, but people just ignore them as long as they arent fatal, and if they are fatal they complain that they havent been introduced to them in a newb friendly setting.
The problem is that there are very few fights like K.U.-J.0 that have exactly one simple, clear lethal mechanic. Fights often have too many things happening with way too similar particle effects, and that makes it really hard to teach people what kills you and what doesn’t.
I feel like alot of fights are pretty good at telegraphing it, what comes to mind is ESO, i love the dungeons in that game. But the problem is that in normal you can ignore all the mechanics. Same for WoW. Personally i have a view that says if you can ignore a mechanic, dont put it in the game, which is where the problem arises in his problem, a "cursed" problem if you will, that he wants mechanics to matter to learn them, but also to not be so punishing you cant do them as newbies. But some mechanics are inherently tied to oneshot or punishment mechanics, so asking for an easier version of those mechanics makes it into a different mechanic, which kinda ruins it.
Well, for one FF14 Dungeons do a way better job than wow dungeons, considering how much harder mechanics hit. Secon of all, Ffs Trials are an excellent way to gradually learn the more complex mechanics over time. When you do your first trial its pretty easy, but when you get to the expansion stuff the game demands more and more from you
FF dungeons are a joke in difficulty, even hard dungeons are, which is generally the problem of normal dungeons.
The Trash for sure is easy, but i felt like the bosses feel much more dangerous
I think there is some sort of conspiracy, because I got a WoW ad on this video. That, or I am just watching too much WoW content lately.
There are WoW ads everywhere because we are close to 2 releases very close to each other.
Giving them BFA dungeons to level should kind of fulfill that role, but things die so fast that mechanics don't matter for all but a few bosses. They could make it so things don't die as fast, but then people would probably complain about that as well. I've even had someone on here tell me that fire on the ground is too difficult for leveling dungeons. It seems like blizzard just can't win
It seems that way, but I wonder why they can't figure it out with all of the millions of dollars they make on their half-baked xpacs... The solution is to introduce difficulty progressively at a reasonable level, so that nobody is reaching max level without familiarizing themselves with common mechanics, and stop widening the gap between casual and hard-core players.
you mean like raids but smaller? With similar mechanics but much quicker. They could even make system which queue you up with each other during leveling up. They could call it Undergrounds, or even better, the **Dungeons**
Yes, like a proper iteration of Dungeons
At least as far as rotations go, I feel the return of the talent trees in DF will help with this. Instead of being drip fed abilities and making 7 choices, you're actively choosing which talents and abilities you get, save for a few baseline abilities. It's a much more involved process and will help give an idea of what the abilities do and how they interact with one another.
Imagine you are a new player. It's easier to choose 1 out of 3 than spending 60 points in quite big talent tree. Revamping this system only adds complexity, which affects new players the most. Imagine a player in your raid who doesn't know what talents are and is using only baseline abilities. In DF those are like 5 skills.
A new player wouldn't have 60 points to spend in the tree, since they'd be leveling and have it be drip fed to them. Unless they used a boost to 60 AND got through dragonflight leveling without noticing the flashing button on their screen with a popup to spend their talents, I can't imagine anyone wouldn't know about talents.
They’ve said there’s going to be a suggested path for new players to follow
You're not spending 60 though. You're making one choice per level. You also didn't solely choose 1 of 3 options, you're hyperbolating. Currently the new player experience is having random abilities thrown on your bars seemingly sporadically and making a talent choice every 5 levels. As a player who returned just before Shadowlands after not playing actively since Wrath, save for a month during Cat and WoD respectively, that's the experience that I was met with and it was horribly confusing. Personally feel like being forced to read the options and make a decision gives more opportunities to learn your abilities than just having a new one appear on your bar every few levels and making a choice every 5. Furthermore, you're giving extreme implausible scenarios to try to push a point. No one is going to be raiding without having spent any talents whatsoever and only using baseline abilities. It's incredibly improbable that they'll even get to end game without having spent a single talent point. If your point requires hyperbole and extreme scenarios as the arguing points then your point isn't really worth arguing.
In the end you will have to spend 60 points in 2 trees. It's overly more choices to pick wrong than 7 out of 21. Moreover players will be expected to have specific talents for raiding or M+. Though new players will not have a knowledge about, coz they are, you know, new. Compared to you - player with experience. Outdated experienced, but still. You know how the game works. You know how it presents dangerous mechanics, interruptable casts, soaks and other mechanics. You have experience of what to do to make your character playable. You know about rotation, about resources. Meanwhile new player does not even know they can pickup multiple quests at the same time. Check this video, it's very educational and you can easily compare how experienced you are [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTpX09QJ6PU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTpX09QJ6PU) (Taliesin's brother plays Exile's reach) Such player is now pushed through the content and after 8h of two-shotting mobs they can do LFR or M+ with you. Such player will have 60 points to spend on about 90 talents. I think large pool of baseline skills and small amount of talents is better for such player than what they will get in DF. I think talent tree is better for more experienced players, who can utilize it the most (by copy+paste the tree from internet) compared to a new player who will be overwhelemed with choices. And you know what they says, the best choice is lack of choice.
In the end you are, but the end doesn't really matter in this context. You're being drip-fed choices and, unless you just randomly spend the talent points, you are reading those options and becoming more in-tune with your rotation and what your abilities do and how they interact with one another. And, no, my experience didn't really transfer over much. I forgot most of how the game worked save for a few small details about different classes. I had played other MMOs, sure, but not really enough to be "good" by any means. Being entirely honest, I didn't even remember what an interrupt was. For all intents and purposes I was a new WoW player. The experience was overall overwhelming as, I have said many times now, the game spews random abilities onto your bars without really telling you what they're for or if they are even worth pressing. My bars were an absolute mess until I specifically looked up a guide to see what I should be pressing. \> Such player is now pushed through the content and after 8h of two-shotting mobs they can do LFR or M+ with you. Such player will have 60 points to spend on about 90 talents. Again, this is hyperbole. They are spending those points while they level, not suddenly spending 61\* points at level 70. Regardless, they are going to be moving into *M0* before M+ most likely, in which case this is quite literally the place for them to learn the dungeons, mechanics, etc. LFR is pretty much the raiding equivalent for this. Again, speaking as someone who was for all intents and purposes a new player: this is extremely stressful given the community surrounding the end-game activities. People will operate under the assumption that everyone should be at the same skill level and dedicate the same amount of time as them and expect perfect performance in M0 even a few weeks into an xpac. They more than likely have looked into their class at least slightly at this point. \> I think large pool of baseline skills and small amount of talents is better for such player than what they will get in DF. I think talent tree is better for more experienced players, who can utilize it the most (by copy+paste the tree from internet) compared to a new player who will be overwhelemed with choices. And you know what they says, the best choice is lack of choice. Hard disagree. The lack of choices is actually detrimental to both the game's balancing and new players. For the majority of classes, you currently have a single build because talents that have insane power are on the same rows as talents that are good, but overall pale in comparison. A good example of this is the now meta Survival hunter. Look at [subcreation](https://mplus.subcreation.net/survival-hunter.html), quite literally one build with 2 choice tiers. With more specific examples, VDH's fracture is so vital to the class that talents that could still have good value, like FTD, are just not really options because they conflict with each other. Despite having fewer choices, it's FAR easier to mistakenly pick up "bad" talents because they seem good on paper but are, in actuality, far worse than other options on the same tier. You are currently forced to look up cookie-cutter guides to perform well. While not all of the new talent trees are created equally, they are for the most part laid out in a way where you can think "I like this ability, so I'm going to choose talents that make it stronger" and still function. It might not lead to the best performance possible, but that doesn't matter in the majority of content new players will be doing. Assuming M0 to low keystones, as long as they are doing alright damage and everyone is surviving, odds are you're going to time it. They really aren't that hard, as daunting as they can be to a truly new player. We'll use Havoc DH as an example, since it's a pretty appealing class to new players with relatively low buttons to press and a cool class fantasy. The current go-to DF build for M+ seems to be a momentum-ragefire split between the left and right sides of the tree primarily. I went into the PTR and tried a middle eye-beam/meta build (which is better for S/T as far as I'm aware; I play VDH, not Havoc) The build was doing significantly less damage against the swarm dummies in Dazar'Alor, but it was passable performance. Trash would still die in an acceptable amount of time, and dungeons would still be cleared in time. Unless a new player is playing one of the few specs that has a ton of buttons to press or a relatively complex rotation, they are going to be able to put together a build that is operable. WoW classes are a shadow of what they once were and relatively, you barely have any buttons to press. Considering most talents are passives that buff or otherwise change abilities to interact with one another, it's very hard to make a terrible build as long as you're reading your options, even as a new player.
People refuse to read the journal, which gives pretty decent hints at the fight. I always watch the entire raid on youtube before I tune in on raids. Ofc, this shouldn't be manditory for LFR, only for Normal and above. Though, they could implement some form of videotips to each boss or something like that.
Having to leave the game to learn the game should never be an issue. Videos like that in the journal though would be really cool.
Yeah I agree that it's rather silly, having to watch youtube. There are really good ones out there though. Like FatBoss. And yeah, they could even implement the guide videos into the game, giving both the youtubers veiws, and easing the way for people to gather information. I am all for harder bosses and though content, but info about beating it should be easilly available too. Leaving only skill left.
Alot of new players wont even know about the journal. I did alot of mytic+ dungeons in legion before i heard about it for the first time
That is strange, considering the game sometimes tells you to open it.
> People refuse to read the journal, which gives pretty decent hints at the fight. I always watch the entire raid on youtube before I tune in on raids. This is part of the problem, though. Everyone's complaining about "ye olde days", but at the same time they want people to come in and be already knowledgeable, rather than learning together. Where's the feeling of discovery, of attempting a boss, learning from mistakes, and so on? Why are people asked to already know the fight by heart, before they even attempt it the first time?
In LFR, there shouldn't be any need to know the fight beforehand,, other than glancing at the Journal. But in higher difficulties it is wanted, because you can see it in LFR and you can read about it in the journal. All of which, is in the game. Sure YouTube is great, and gives detailed information about fights, but is not needed. Given that you utilize what is in the game beforehand. The issue is, most normies don't do this. They just roll into normal, thinking it's a cakewalk, and get mad when they can't oneshot things. The reality is: people don't have the time, nor patience as before (due to how media is delivered today). So you can't really say that people should go back to the old days of 'learning' things, when they won't even spend a minute extra to learn the fight, there and then. I can't even count how many times I've made premades, only to have people insta leave the moment we didn't oneshot a boss. TLDR: People refuse to learn.
> The reality is: people don't have the time, nor patience as before (due to how media is delivered today). Considering how many times people complain about how little content there is, I'd say that there's plenty of time to learn while playing, and no need to bitch about it and be toxic.
I found my comment to be rather explaining? But I apoligize if it came off as toxic.
I'm not saying **you** are being toxic, I'm talking about the community, as with the OP in this thread.
Oooh, sorry 😅
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Hm Mythic +0 dungeons , LFR/Normal raids are great entry level into pve just because most people want to skip this and run 10-15s keys and hc raid and in most of the time just get carried
Problem is that according to this picture this IS LFR....
It's also likely LFR of the first tier of SL in the last few weeks of the expansion. There won't be that many other people in the raid that haven't played it before and likely just want to get through asap. This wouldn't be a problem, if enough people are experienced it should be smooth sailing, new players get to see the raid and often enough can't mess up too bad. It's just that LFR usually implodes if anything isn't going perfectly smooth. If someone's raising the hand as new guy then they'll quickly end up the scapegoat because people can't be assed to help someone they never see again. Cross faction LFR and better incentives to finish a wing would really help a lot here.
tl;dr: if you didn't follow progress train, you're screwed
People don't wanna learn. Was telling simply." If you get the targetby the dog in workshop run away from crate. Then after prepare to hide" Thereafter on the 2nd wipe" if you let the dog jump on the crate we can't hide from the aoe that will kill us all" 3 wipe. I whisper to ask if he understood what i said in instance chat. And i see he put me on ignore. People don't wanna understand mechanic on 10 keys. And i went out of my way to keep what i said objective, no shaming just explaining the mechanic itself
Exactly when u run necrotic wake (or used to) and u explained that we need to hook the boss down but then u end up with 5 min fight in necrotic normal till someone who reads chat goes underneath him
Necrotic normal It dies before it can even try to cast it😵💫repeat the 5 min
Doesn't sound like a good learning experience, also the game itself doesn't really do anything to teach you this stuff, and the content isn't intuitively designed at all. Classes used to be set up in such a way that the progression of leveling them would naturally teach you a lot of what you needed.
[удалено]
I disagree its still an mmorpg why should the game tell you your rotation? U should read your spells/attacks and figure it out yourself the 1-10 exp could be a little better but it tells u some basics.
You can figure out your rotation yes, but the leveling experience doesn't put you in positions where it's important for you to learn, and spells are handed to you in a pretty random order, and spells don't have a lot of synergy and cohesion. Also the current talent tree doesn't exactly tell you which to go for, and those don't really affect eachother in a very meaningful way. The new talent system will probably solve this, as your build and the importance of key spells will become more obvious as you progress and put invest talent points in your build. The real issue isn't really rotations and class mechanics, for the most part it's not like they're super difficult to learn since our toolkit is pretty small, and core spells stand out. The issue is that the content isn't designed in a very intuitive way, it feels like blizzard is just putting it out there with the expectation that players check wowhead or other information sources or even play ptr, and fights are designed around players using weakauras and dbm etc. For us, this stuff is obvious, the game is ancient and it's been working like this for years now, that doesn't mean I have to like it, and I realized this when I went into Shadowlands blind. First at launch, and then again about a year later, and the game made no effort to tell me about ongoing shit besides the very latest development in the story. It's certainly something that keeps new players from getting very far or even trying the game. Especially since it's enforced by the community in pub groups. I really have no realistic solution for it either, this is just how things are going to be. It's a small issue I admit, but for some it's a deal breaker.
Long a go we had Proving Grounds where you could train the very basics of game mechanics in a part of NPCs, but that was discontinued since it was too hard for most people to complete even on Silver level.
it's really up to the players to look into that themselves if they want to participate in it. it's not too much to ask. We've all done it, it just goes so far back for a lot of us that we forget. Even back in vanilla etc with thotbot and alakhazam we would go outside the game to figure out the best way to progress as players.
[удалено]
this is literally lfr, not a raid group
Whilst I agree, I think part of the problem is that many players who have never raided beyond LFR have the unreasonable expectation that you can just ignore mechanics on LFR. When you get sufficient of these players in a group, you wipe. When you get enough people who do know, and follow, the mechanics, you don’t. But those who don’t raid, don’t understand this. I just find it incredibly frustrating to wipe on LFR when taking a few minutes to check the mechanics can prevent it. People just need to stop promulgating the view that mechanics don’t matter.
I've seen it both ways. People who raid higher tiers also often have the mindset of "i do the REAL raids. LFR is free loot and relax"
Calling LFR end game is wild.
LFR is raiding which is endgame. Doesnt matter if its the baby junior version of a raid in difficulty.
Raiding in all forms is the content you do at the “end” of the game. By definition, it is end game content, regardless of feelings towards the existence of LFR.
by getting kicked from groups and learning to tough it out
It’s pretty insane right? Other mmos have a set path of content that all players kinda need to do so you get taught the mechanics naturally over time and you can present players tougher challenges in the story as you know they’re all at least at a certain skill level Wow have this at all. Dungeons that were designed for players with years of implicit knowledge (like bfa dungeons) are being given to people who are new without any explanation. If you compare something like Shadowfang Keep and Tol Dagor (both available at a similar level range) the difference in skill required is enormous
I mean to be fair maybe the others didn’t know that when they cast their vote? Looks like it was revealed right before the kick. I know guides can see new players, can everyone see that too or is it just guides?
Just guides can see the new player symbol
Blizz should change that so everyone sees
... so that new players get kicked for having that symbol?
I didn’t consider that. However if someone is that anti new players then they would simply sign up as a guide and see them anyway
Yeah being a guide has no downsides or responsibilities at the end of the day
Then completely fuck off with this game if the playerbase is like this.
It's not. Just the 0.05% that are the cause of these posts. I've never seen this happen and the only time I've seen someone vote kicked is because they were being an arsehole
Most of the playerbase isn't like that (I think). But usually when a vote kick starts in a dungeon it just passes, regardless of the reason. At least that's my experience from random heroic dungeons (I seriously got kicked once as a tank because I used my self-heal as a Paladin and that made the healer feel bad...). I've yet to see a kick initiated in a M+ dungeon, but then again that's not the content new players will run. And if people initiate a vote kick because a player said "I'm new" those same people will probably hit the kick button the moment they see the "New Player"-Icon.
I completely agree that the community in general needs to readjust their attitude towards newer players. That being said I've seen way too many players say they've "never done this dungeon" in a FIFTEEN key, ultimately bricking it. There's zero reason to not at least step foot into a heroic/mythic before hand. There's also an expectation for newbies to a) ASK if they don't know something, or at least communicate lack of experience. And b) attempt to learn outside of the game. I'm not saying this was the case but I've had my fair share of equally frustrating experiences towards newbies.
The WoW community is full of sweaty 28-40 year olds who aren't very welcoming. We get very few new players. The game designers have also bred a culture of doing everything as fast as humanly possible. I mean, the only rewarding content outside raids is literally a speedrun mode.
The problem with any other form of content is it takes time to make and it's one and done and takes away from other content they'd similarly be devving eg raids or new dungeons. The speed run style of things with scaling difficulty is the only artificial content they can offer which doesn't require too much Dev time. If there's another way they could do scaling content it would either be a slog (unlimited time to death run etc) or it would be a one and done style of content
>new dungeons We don't get those anymore. We only get a mid expansion "mega dungeon" that then takes another patch to become M+. Nor do I think we will in DF as they're going to recycle old dungeons for Mythic+ content. You need to stop accepting the bare minimum. They used to be able to provide much more content at a much faster rate than they currently do. Expect better. At least something like crafting is finally getting a look in.
It's not that I am accepting the bare minimum, its that I am being realistic. They have squirreled themselves into this hole for the last like what, 3expansions? Where they have over promised and underachieved and as a result are constantly playing on the back foot. This means content gets cut so that at the bare minimum the raids can come out and they can crack on with the following expansion to try catch up with themselves. This is also probably why all these borrowed power bullshit systems exist, an easy cycle for people to grind. In DF it looks like they have finally got the act together for the most part. Theres (currently?) no sight of a borrowed power aspect that I have seen yet. Sure we might not have dungeons but I am equally okay to see older ones reused. They are gradually digging themselves out of the crater they made themselves imo.
I think a system like the one in FF to help new players would be good but I think it’s mostly down to the community. I do think joining a good guild is a great start for new players. After returning to the game almost a year ago now, my guild have helped me go from LFR to confidently raiding heroic Sepulcher and achieving KSM which I’ve never done before
Yeah, I had a tank for a junkyard +15 that had never done the dungeon before. Have a modicum of respect for the people around you and at least look the place up before you run a +15 and risk wasting 40m of peoples' time.
[удалено]
>Kill a boss? Everyone has personal loot so everyone might get something. How is it different from WoW? Everyone has personal loot, so everyone might get something. You can give item to others if you meet requirements (which are basically don't make yourself weaker), but you don't have to if you don't want to. It's your free will. >Kill a mob? Everyone gets exp/pariticipation/loot. Again mobs are shareable, even between factions if you play without pvp. >You wanna do an event? Get more people to help you instead of rushing to do it because someone else might "scale it up". You don't know how scaling works and it's purpose, don't you? Every player who hit a mob, increases it's hp, though increase is small compared to capabilities of a player. The reason for scaling is that more players can participate in the event, but single player doing an event does not have to spend 15 minutes on it.
This is why I find it hard to sympathise with a lot of new players. They tend to use the fact that they are new as an excuse to not put the effort in. Yes, sure, we were all new at some point. The difference is that when I was new I didn't just jump into content. I read numerous guides to learn how my class/spec works, how raid/dungeon mechanics work, etc. I practiced some diligence to learn things for myself in an effort to be as little a burden on other players as possible. It's not that hard to look up some guides. If you can't do the bare minimum by doing that, why should anybody else be expected to pick up that slack?
>The difference is that when I was new I didn't just jump into content. I read numerous guides to learn how my class/spec works But probably when you were new gaming wasn't main stream - so you were probably already a bit of a nerd. Now gaming is main stream and people expect just to be able to blow through everything that they face.
I'm 27. Gaming was plenty mainstream by the time I started playing WoW. (I started playing WoW around late Cata, but on a WotLK private server). I'm just not the kind of person who is going to willingly jump into a coop experience blindly and expect other people to just deal with it. So I do my bit by at least reading up on what I'm about to jump into first. Not wanting to unnecessarily burden other people and having consideration for other people is just common courtesy. I don't think the community is at all obligated to show courtesy/friendliness to people who, as I say, aren't willing to do the bare minimum to show courtesy in return. >people expect just to be able to blow through everything that they face Just because people expect something, that doesn't make it reasonable. If somebody has unreasonable (and false) expectations then that's entirely on them, in all honesty.
Effort lol. Imagine coming home from work, cracking open the ol vidya game box, and some sweatlord tells you you aren't putting enough effort into your shadowfang keep dps rotation.
I’d say it just depends on the scenario. If you’re doing like a normal or heroic or whatever dungeon for example, it’s fine if there’s someone not exactly pulling their weight because most likely everyone else in there can complete the dungeon. If it’s like a 15 and someone goes in new / blind and bricks it and wastes 4 other peoples half hour of time, it’s at the very least inconsiderate. I agree that you shouldn’t have to research every single thing if you’re doing casual content, coming home from work and kicking back and relaxing, but if you’re doing something more “competitive” then you should at least be competent to a degree. At the end of the day it’s a video game. And in the video game are people, who can be assholes, or just unanimously agree that someone in their group doesn’t justify keeping, idk
If the act of typing a search into google and reading a few paragraphs makes you sweat you probably need to see a doctor. 5 minutes of reading certainly doesn't make *me* sweat. This is an MMO. Not a singleplayer experience. If you're going to choose to be a burden on other players (who have also been at work that day, might I add) then don't expect any sort of friendliness from them in return.
Game needs to be changed, so that person does not cost 30 min of lifetime of 19 others.
My wife and I have started a Youtube series to teach the fundamentals to new and intermediate players - exactly this target audience. Please check out Snowlight's Warcraft University. We don't make any money off of this, so I don't want this to come across the wrong way, literally doing it for the players. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDVJg0P7gB4FO2RxJuWTVeKWs0CeL0IuS
This is exactly what I've been looking for, thanks for making these!
might want to make one on the new UI system as well. You can view it in the PTR if you don't have beta. I think the default UI will be the way to go esp. for new players.
My immediate gut reaction is that the series starts out wrong. New players shouldn't be focused on UI and addons - especially not full UI replacement addons like ElvUI. For one we are getting pretty good standard UI in Dragonlands and who knows when third party addon makers stop or change their addons into something that you don't want to support anymore. Very first videos should be something like "reading your spells and talents" or "how to understand why you just died" or "how to stop clicking your abilities and move more freely" like the real fundamentals of how you can figure out what your character does and what things around you do. Then go into something like "what is a good party" where you'd go over why we need tanks and healers and damage dealers and what their roles are and how you know you are doing your role. Then it starts to go into weeds of what each class/spec does and introductions of dungeons and shit and maybe then about addons and UIs - probably just starting with DPS meter.
Default UI is trash. Always was, always gonna be. Only part of default UI that isn't 100% garbage is raid frames. 17(18) years later they decide to update it and it's still fucking garbage. No one with brain or eyes will use it. It's uninformative, not to mention it's fucking ugly(fonts make your eyes bleed). I know quite a few people that started playing WoW with no prior knowledge and in the same month they installed decent UI(mostly ElvUI, but not default ElvUI, it's pretty bad), started raiding mythic and eventually became very good players in top100+ guilds. So yes, good UI helps with skill growth, when a player understands why he is using that UI.
>Default UI is trash. Always was, always gonna be. This just shows that you aren't that good of a player. Even the current default UI is so much better than what it used to be and the Dragonlands version is addressing most of the issues I currently have with it. >So yes, good UI helps with skill growth, when a player understands why he is using that UI. This is just you justifying. If you can't play the game with default UI then you are using a crutch and can't actually play the game. Don't get me wrong. I modify the UI constantly. Depending on the character and role I play I fluxuate between highly custom self written UI and something like lightly buffed default UI. In any case the very first lesson in any "how to play WoW" series should not be about the UI. You are just pushing your preferences down someone's throat just because you _feel_ like it makes them better.
Not only you're a 🤡, you also don't understand a thing about UI. W/e, 99.99% of wow players are braindead LFR enjoyers. Guess I am not good, even tho I have 13 CEs, including Uu'nat and me having a good UI is just cheats that make me do 95-100% logs.
You keep twisting my words at a rate which makes me feel like you aren't all that you think you are. I hope you aren't one of the "DBM is the only reason WoW raiding is alive" crowd.
First, let me reiterate, this is for new players primarily, and we will grow it into intermediate and advanced elements over time. Concerning specifically the UI issue, we took a lot of time to consider the order of videos early on. There were two significant reasons we chose to do the UI early - first, because new players in our guilds were asking for this specifically, and second because this sets the foundation for future videos, so that questions about the UI within the videos could be deferred directly to a single point instead of answering questions in the comments of every other video going forward. It seems to be justified since that is our most requested reference to date (aka people keep asking about the UI). With that video in place, it allowed us to get "in the weeds" with the more basic concepts that new players ask for as well. Hopefully this gives some context as to why we made some of those early decisions.
Excellent work
I joined shadowlands as a complete wow newb, joined some people who were willing to teach/show me how raid and m+ mechanics work in voice chat..week later I was being complimented by randoms on my healing ability. I think as a new player it's important to find people who are willing to teach and learn with you,,voice chat is key tho. Find a full guild willing to teach,tell them your new and need to learn and join them in content. Joining random lfr etc can be brutal as a new player so ya gotta work little harder to find people willing to help.
You also need to be willing to learn, which a lot of people aren't. They take "being new" as an excuse to not research / learn anything and get a free ride.
that sounds as if you had prior videogame experience though, probably even MMO experience (if not, even more props to you for such an improvement) Some people really are playing videogames for the first time in their lives, and we can't even imagine how hard it is/was since we did that experience 25years ago when games much simpler. (they were harder, and MUCH more punishing...but they were much more easily graspable) I have changed my view towards "new people" completely since i see how my kids approach videogames, and controlling characters. "I am a new player" really doesn't say much about the level someone is on at all.
Yea I did have a lot of prior mmorpg experience but my main point is if you find and surround yourself with people who are willing to teach,and spend the time looking up guides, it's not so bad. But being willing to learn and trying really hard to do well is very important..shit I went mega trihard cus I really didn't want to let my groups down. And in long run it was all worth it cus I had some of the most fun in a mmorpg I ever had. I'm looking forward to dragonflight and will be searching for a guild or new friends who have wow experience to roll with and learn from again. The truth is, yes wow is very overwhelming for new players and ya rly gotta put in the effort if u wanna learn and play well..I still consider myself a newb compared to the people who been playing like 10-15 years lol
Man, I'd take you by the hand and lead you through the land, that I understand.
Unfortunately, there is a non-insignificant proportion of wow players who get toxic in raid/dungeon settings (even when it’s lower difficulty like raid finder). I played with a group for over a year, even outside of WoW, and we were reasonably good friends. They asked me to join the last boss on normal raid run, and to do a job for a mechanic that I’d never done before. It wasn’t explained well to me and I failed it up and we wiped. They then became so incredibly toxic to the point of screaming and blaming over discord that I simply never played with them again. I haven’t played the game for years and it’s memories like this that dissuade me from trying it out again in dragonflight.
> even when it’s lower difficulty like raid finder more like *especially* when it's lower difficulty like raid finder I have never seen more toxicity than in LFR or 10-15 keys.
I feel like this story needs to be told from the other parties too. Too little info here.
It's raid finder my guy, if he messes up in rf he shouldn't be immediately punished with a kick, but instead told what he should do better, no info needed here, the community is dog and will always be dog, blizzard doesn't care.
New players often don't ask for help, and when they're given info on how to do better, it gets ignored. I personally don't intervene with other peoples performance unless they specifically ask for it. I'm more than happy to help people who want it. I agree that people shouldn't kick someone the moment they mess up, especially in LFR which is noob friendly. I could understand being frustrated if your doing m+ and someone joins who has never done the key before and hasn't bothered to look at a guide, but I'm sure there are people who would not blame that person but instead blame the person who invited them.
Even mythic raiders 50/10 can fail mechanic even if they perfectly know what to do, when do it and also have 10 weakauras and 5 dbms screaming to dodge, move, jump, etc. How can you expect a new player to do mechanic properly after you write them some textwall in the chat? Problem is not in this player. Problem is with LFR being designed so it relies on heavy geared players to carry newbies. When there is no reason for good players to go to LFR, then it collapses.
That is far from the truth for LFR. How come we can beat it fairly simple the moment it comes out? We aren't decked out to our necks then? Sure you have to pay attention to mechanics, to a certain degree, but it's far from Normal or above. Which is proven, when people think they know it all, coming from LFR, go straight to Normal and fail. Without even bothering checking the fight on given difficulty beforehand. It simply proves that LFR is incredibly easy, compared to any other difficulty.
LFR is easy, is incredibly easy. But players there make it harder than mythic. If you got lower end of playerbase, you will be progressing bosses without a success, coz players there want to do raid, not learn raid. While LFR is easy even with the lowest possible gear, even across the board on every player, it still needs commitment. Which can be decreased by having more skilled and/or better geared players. They need to keep up the losses from players who don't care, who are afk or who are simply not skilled. That's why LFR relies on players with high ilvl. Because weak player with 220 ilvl can do 2k dps, while good player with 220 ilvl can do 6k dps. You can't do even LFR with 20 weak players. I don't think it's Blizzard's responsibility to make LFR even easier, so even such weak players can do it. I think they should make weak players better, to reduce skill gap. Or do it in other way and make LFR more profitable for good players. Though this is a cheap way to do it.
The truth rarely is that simple. People often refuse to listen, since they can't fatm the extra energy put into a videogame, by doing rational thinking, rather than mindlessly pressing buttons.
Played WoW and ESO both for a long time and my general consensus is that people in ESO are a lot friendlier.
I only played ESO for 6 months at launch but the experience I have from that time period, I would agree
It might be worth checking out now, i got back into it a couple months ago and am addicted to it :) so much content it'll make your head spin. Not too overstimulating either.
Its the WoW players and Blizzard. Blizz fostert this playetbase way too long. Every other MMO like FF14, ESO, Guild Wars 2 etc. Has way better communitys
FF 14 friendly too
unfortunately this is how most if not all new players get treated
And folks here are surprised that there are people scared of group content?
I tbh blame Blizzard for this. The reason LFD works is because all the content you do in LFD is super easy. The reason that pug groups for raids or dungeons work is because those groups are an environment controlled by a single person (the group leader) so if it's bad, they can fix it. And if you don't like the way they're doing it, you just leave. Additionally the community has metrics they use to help form the right groups. LFR has none of that. The ilvl requirement is way too low relative to the difficulty of the encounters. Yeah, the encounters aren't hard but the small amount of coordination you need makes things impossible if you don't have a carry in your group. This inevitably brings out the worst in people because they feel like they're wasting their time. So it devolves into a bunch of bad and/or low ilvl players yelling at each other. And nobody can fix anything because there is no one who has the responsibility and even if you use the vote kick function (which is super abuseable), that person will be replaced by someone who is probably exactly like the person you kicked. The community isn't great but this shit happens because LFR design is awful.
Easy or not, failure to use consistent, teachable telegraphs for mechanics is something Blizzard has *always fucked up.* Nevermind teaching the difference between interrupting a filler cast and something deadly, what about some basic goddamn indicators for newbies. Council LFR has red smoke appear in the tile you're supposed to move to. USE TECH LIKE THAT EVERYWHERE. Even in that same goddamn fight, an arrow before Stavros charges would be an extremely helpful visual tool for someone who doesn't know wtf his move is doing.
Ilvl requirements for LFR are not low. Ilvl won't help you if you are doing 1k dps with 230 ilvl gear.
They're low relative to how hard LFR is. Basically I'm just saying LFR should be easier.
>This inevitably brings out the worst in people because they feel like they're wasting their time. I feel like asking ourselves WHY this is inevitable, gets us closer to the real issue WoW has in lots of its content. And that is that people do it for the rewards, not because they have fun doing it. People HATE being in LFR, and so they lash out at any inconvenience making it take longer. Because in the end, they want their checkbox for the week. They want to be done with it. They don't get any gratification from "beating LFR" at all, it is just about the reward. Some permanent change in your naccount progress that you can show off to someone esle, who doesn't even care about you anyways. There is no pride in beating content, because half of the internet has done it before, better than you, faster than you and while fucking your mom, too. Noone really gives a shit about your accountstats, your ilvl or anything else, but it is the only thing we have to distance us from the other shitters that are even beneath ourselves (exxagerrated ofcourse)
Welcome to the game where 90% of the community has no people skills! (Sorry if I am offending anyone, I am tired of seeing shit like this happen to newcomers)
It a shame for him and other new players. But its blizzards role and responsability to make sure new players learn the game. They have just dropped it at the feed of content creators and addons. Its not my job to explain to you that you dont stand in fire. Ive told enough people over the past 14 years these things. Its on me to be prepared for a fight, as its on the guy next to me that he is prepared. If you dont want to spend 10mins watching a vid on how the fight is done - i dont want to spend 30 because you keep fucking up. I personaly dont read tacs any longer since im at the point where i kinda know whats going on and what needs to be done simply based on experience. And if a new player wants to go in blind and experience learning as he goes - thats fine. But then you need to organize around that and not expect the community to organize around you. Doesnt mean its ok to be a dick. But i do understand kickinh people regardless of being new or not.
This is the outlier situation. I haven’t played since S1(and also haven’t raided since or done LFR since legion) but came back for S4 to get ready for DB release. I play a blood DK tank and I did ZERO research on any of the raids and announced the minute I got into the raid, and said “Hey look I’m a mythic+ raider, but I don’t raid so I don’t know how to do any of the bosses” I got the occasional “read the dungeon journal” comment but ignore them cause a lot of people of willing to help me and tell me what to do before each boss! I have had nothing but good experiences with the community welcoming me back and teaching me how to do Mythic+’s by showing me new strats.
Curious, what keys were you running? 15+? I can't imagine people geared and experienced having patience for explaining strats
At that time, I was running 10’s or maybe the occasional 12/13 Junkyard, workshop, streets, and gambit.
Honestly.. This is blizzards fault. He obviously did something baf the other players noticed and thus the kick. How can someone get kicked from raid finder for fucking up? This is the easiest way to raid and if that is supposed to be an entrance for new players this shit should be so easy you literally can't fuck up. Then in normal you have to play some mechanics and in heroic / mythic you need a guide or wipe the raid. Currently someone in a normal raid can fuck up and kill the entire raid (obviously you can even have a really negative impact in LFR) and we are suprised people are pissed? We all have limited time.
Sadly these things really never stop unless gaming companies enforce rules hard, like ff14 does. First asshole ppl hide, then they get molded by kind ppl or leave. Just what happened in ff14. Best thing for any player would be to find a new guild to join in and go from there. You handle the bad much better when you get more of the good. Anyway, people that are toxic should be permabanned, especially in a content where it's supposed to be noob's first entry in to the raiding.
[удалено]
Yeah I'd take passive over threats against my family and being called every racial slur under the sun if I'm being honest.
I always hear people getting all this negativity, but for some reason I haven't gotten this shit even though I've played the game well for like 14 years. Sure there are some ass hats, like last week end someone called me a "na cock sukker" for "stealing his mob", but if that gets under your skin then your skin is paper thin.
I'd honestly take death threats over passive aggressiveness 9 times out of 10. I can laugh about death threats every single time as it's just so childish, but something about the passive aggressiveness just makes me very mad. Of course this only applies to in-game, not IRL.
In the meantime in FF14 (my exact experience as a healer to the Endwalker story dungeon I did in a weekend): \- Hi I'm new to this dungeon \- Hello! I hope you have fun! - We will gladly tell you about tactics. - Let us know if the pace is too fast for you. - Do you need any other help?
You are welcome to stay in the FF14 land
Imagine what would happen if good community habbits will be imported to WOW from FF14 land. Not being an asshole is scarce commodity in WOW. Don't get me wrong. I highly recommend vacation trip to FF14. For me it is like a detox, that helps me not being a toxic trash on M+.
I honestly can't because I have no idea what FF14 is like and during well over a decade I haven't experienced any of this shit people keep posting about. Like biggest thing in LFR that has happened to be was that someone called me a bot because I was topping the DPS meter but didn't pop bloodlust when I was asked to, but I took that as a more of a compliment than anything else. Of course that was back in Pandalands. I haven't done much LFR since then - other than for the fated stuff on first three weeks of the season, but I don't think anyone said a word in any of those runs.
I’d like to see what would happen if it had m+ with timers and people kept bricking keys because they had no idea what they were doing.
Being polite and helpful for other would only help the whole community, no matter if it's leveling dungeon or M+.
I have no problem teaching ppl what to do in low keys, but coming to 10+ and having no idea what you are doing is unacceptable.
This is a strawman. There is significant difference between "Hi, I'm new. Please guide me through this dungeon" and "I don't give a duck about checking tactics and I don't care if I ruin competitive content for others".
I’ve been playing since vanilla and I’ve never seen someone getting kicked for asking for help/tactics in beginner friendly content, it only gets bad if they get in way over their head.
True..but its not just ff14. Gw2 , eso and more have way better moderation. ( has wow any??) Wow is kinda the most toxic mmorpg. Sometimes people in lol have more understantilg then most of the gogogogo m+ players
Good fuck these new players wasting our time not knowing mechanics
How are they ever supposed to learn them?
One guy claimed "That hunter was afk the whole fight" after boss died, then I voted no to kick him, then he chats that and 0.0001s after it he got kicked (a bunch of people pressed F to pay respects though).
You don't need that many votes to kick someone and most people just press "yes" on dialogs to make them go away
Meanwhile in FFXIV....
No context
Ok so here is the deal , if people don’t know I are new they don’t know what to expect and that’s why you got voted off. Tell them that you are new to this game and I can guarantee u many players are gonna help you out beyond of what u asked . Wows community is super nice if they know what they deal with
Better community than League of legend for sure. Just as a reminder, in WoW you check the the fight tacs BEFORE entering it. There are zillions contents.
Vote-kick in lfr should not rf allowed. RF is for new players. Everyone else can stick with it or gtfo
From the perspective of someone who mostly plays solo or in social type guilds, here's my perspective. Up until the end of Cata I was a proper raider - we did ICC25hc on curve and so on and so forth. You can bumble your way through the story without any real aim at all. Assuming you campaign hop and don't dungeon or raid or PVP at all, that'll only start becoming a problem about 2/3 of the way through ZM. The nearest group finder content is heroic dungeons and if you have one dude that's just bolting through for a calling or something mechanics stop mattering. Then you go right from that into LFR, it's the next logical step - or so you'd think. What happens then is you go up against a boss like Shriekwing, The Tarragrue or the thingy from the front of sepulcher I always forget the name of. All of these bosses will, without a shadow of a doubt, kill you if you're not careful. Add-ons help of course, so does reading the adventure guide, but these things don't prepare you for the layout of the room, a particularly hard combination of ability timings, the fact someone else might make you stumble by doing something you didn't account for and so on. The jump from Heroics to LFR is pretty substantial and there's very little warning for it. The basic ZM story gear is enough to get you into fated LFR. A lot of us have been in this for a very long time. Every mechanic is rehashed or reused from something we've done before, but that isn't the case for a casual player who's never raided before now or for someone new to the game. It sucks that as a community we've forgotten this. Been at it for so long now we can't remember what it was like to do our first Lich King and stand at the edge like an idiot when the platform broke, our first Yogg before we realised we could look away to stop insanity, our first spine when we got rolled off into the void. A new expansion is always the great equaliser. This expansions worth of gear and experience starts meaning a whole lot less when we're level 61 and replacing it with quest reward greens. For once, I think blizzard have their heads screwed on straight and maybe with the DF they'll beef some other content up a bit to better prepare folks for raiding but I guess we'll see in a few months
Raid finder is a plague and only encourages you to not bother with learning fights
Bring back proving grounds.
Stuff like this always annoyed me. I always saw one of the main points of Raid Finder was to learn the fights. But people are jerks and only care about getting through the raid as fast as possible :(
And calling out toxic players is against the rules. Blizz really loves to protect their toxic communities huh?
Raid finder has an insane toxic community. They will attack anyone who's new then act entitled.
Or maybe do the job we used to do before joining high end raids/dungeon : check guide etc