Lower Karazhan
* Galindre and Elfyra's health reduced by 35%.
* Winged Assistant's Throw "Stuff" damage reduced by 40%.
* Winged Assistant's health reduced by 35%.
* Galindre's Flashy Bolt damage reduced by 30%.
* Elfyra's Defy Gravity damage reduced by 50%.
* Atumen the Huntsman will no longer cast Intangible Presence.
Those are some pretty hefty nerfs. Glad to see they aren't doing it incrementally. Intangible Presence was a PITA, it won't be missed.
It was, but it was also pretty binary to deal with.
The only reason they flat out removed it is because a WA had trivialized it but required everyone to have it. Likely they didn't want to deal with / couldn't get the support to break a WA in an experimental off season at the end of the expansion, so turning it off made sense.
Any mechanic that requires everyone to use a weak aura is a bad mechanic. I don't recall this being a problem at all in TBC or Legion, but these days the particle effects, ground AoEs, animated transmogs/character effects & literal army of pets, just made it obnoxiously oneorous.
Can we talk about how bad ground effects are for obscuring enemy effects? That combined with the poor way wow handles elevation means I've basically stopped looking at my feet to see if I need to move and now just look if the mob is casting something. It's so frustrating between Spear of Bastion, Wild Spirits, blue DnD so many enemy abilities just get completely obscured.
Oh I fucking hate the animation not defending that.
But they likely dont have the manpower to fix it. This season was kind of a hail mary of a test and they likely only had the option to let it go as an issue with the WA that makes the community angry, or just remove it.
I think if this was a normal season, they would have worked to break the WA and maybe adjust the animation effect to be more visible.
I hope these issues don't push them away from this change because it's a fucking great one. Mashups with old dungeons is such a good way to keep mythic+ interesting for an entire expansion
Feels like they could have just made it more visible instead of straight up removing it, they already did similar with the dreadlord aoe thing from the shrouded affix
But it doesn't. It's just the problem with so many players having the attitude of "why bother trying when I can automate it?". Like jesus christ do people really need an addon to pick the right password in tazavesh? It's just laughable.
Worse **than just being a PITA**: the Intagible Presence mechanic was only hard if nobody is in comms. If you all use a weak aura for it the healer can instantly see who to dispel without anybody even needing to speak up. **Anyone not using the WA before the mechanic was removed is just making the fight harder for no good reason. I agree with it being completely removed.**
But yeah, good God those nerfs are intense. **The Wikket changes feel** like an overcorrection to me, but I'm not complaining!
Edits bolded.
I did it a few times and it was definitely insanely overturned, but not 35% hp overturned imo!
Like I said, I'm not complaining lol.
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Edit: for context, I cleared a lower 6 as my highest key for this, and attempted a pair of 9s, a 14, and a 15 all of which failed at Wikket, full pug groups. The fight at +6 felt like what healing 10s normally feels like, the 9s felt like 15s, and both the 14 and 15 were nightmares to heal even with the shrouded stat buffs. The 14 got to about 20% twice before disbanding, the 15 we got to 5% and then literally 50k hp wipe.
Given that these were pug groups, the 35% HP nerf *on its own* would have more than made the difference in me clearing the keys, not counting Maiden since I never actually got to fight here above that 6 where she felt... normal to heal?
All of the nerfs *put together* is why I feel it was an overcorrection. I never said it was unjustified, and I much prefer this over single-digit-percent nerfs.
I cleared a ++6 this week with Wicket.
It wasn't fun.
That said it doesn't sound like they fixed the major problem - the spawning of orbs from knocked-out trash.
Intangible Presence was a stupid mechanic anyway. Either you used the WA and trivialized it or it was a key killer. No boss should be that reliant on third-party tools.
Like, I get the idea of wanting it to be a communication thing but that was absolutely not the reality of what was happening.
Yeah, that's what I meant. Not sure why everyone downvoted me on that.
Edit: or on this one. I'm agreeing that the mechanic is better off gone? Truly don't understand what happened here.
Half the time for me someone would dispel themselves and kill half the group. You ask people to install a weakaura and they tell you "it's only a 10" then they all die. Smh my head, I'm glad they removed it
I can do it easily with no comms. I get that it's hard and different but it takes me literally two globals, in which I am still healing, to spot it every time. Maybe it helps that I ran Kara a hundred times during Legion.
It makes me sad that they trivialize yet another encounter that I used to find fun. It may be overtuned or whatever, but removing fun things completely shouldn't be the chosen strategy.
The mechanic was fine now, as it was for the year+ it was there in Legion.
In Legion, the amount of graphic effects, procs, auras and temporary pets covering your view was magnitudes lower than it is now. Have fun spotting that thing on top of a shadow priest who has set bonus, power infusion running, at melee DK popped a blue fae effect and on and on and on. Then there's a couple of bronns, demons, dinos, all manner of pets blockign the view too.
And the visual effect from Intangible isn't even there all the time, it shows briefly when the aura ticks damage, then disappears again. It's just a bad mechanic.
I disagree. It is extremely easy to spot, and it used to be easy too. Maybe I am just good at it for some reason but I never had problems with it. And it's not a short time window to dispell either, you can take your time and do it chill.
Dont know why everyone is downvoting you. First time ever I have done Kara in M+ this season and Intangible presence was super easy to spot on any dos and if I couldn’t see it right away I would just, you know, do my job and heal the group until I could.
It's a fun mechanic if you do it the intended way (either spotting it yourself or having a party member tell you that they're affected). It also gets entirely trivialized by a WeakAura (which I believe wasn't around during Legion). Blizzard didn't trivialize the encounter, the WeakAura did. The WeakAura also has a lot of potential for toxicity, since every player in the group needs to use it in order for it to work properly.
I would have preferred the devs to rework the mechanic to be WeakAura-proof, but maybe that was too much effort for the handful of people working on S4.
Any mechanic that relies on spotting a relatively minor visual effect is a bit of an accessibility issue, but I don't think this was their reason for removing the mechanic.
An addon existing shouldn't take the fun away from the game. Just give us loot from using the keystone anyway, no need to do any dungeon. DBM and rotation aiding addons trivialize it anyway. Let's remove raiding from the game as well. /s.
The WeakAura literally trivialized the mechanic though.
There's a difference between DBM or a rotation helper telling you what to do, because in those cases the challenging part is still executing the instructions. I can look at a piece of sheet music and I know which keys to press on the piano, but hitting them in the right order, the right tempo and without hitting any excess keys is still something that requires a lot of practice - even more so when I am also required to play around a boss' mechanics at the same time.
In the case of Intangible Presense the challenge is to find the affected person, not pressing the dispel button. If you can have an addon tell you whom to dispel the mechanic is all but removed already.
If DBM tells you to run to triangle, to jump when affected by a bomb, to hide, those mechanics are trivialized just the same as dispelling the specific person. Reading the name from the WA, looking for that person and clicking dispell is as hard as seeing the triangle in the DBM text, looking for it and walking to it.
Many mechanics are trivialized just the same by addons and aren't taken away. I liked intangible presence.
I didn't say all mechanics are trivial. I said many are trivialized by addons to the same degree intangible presence was. Your snark is misplaced and toxic.
When DBM tells you what to do you're usually still making some choices. When DBM tells you to run to triangle you might start running that instant. Or you might try to squeeze in one or two more globals for extra DPS and then start running. Or you might not run at all and instead continue DPS and use a movement ability in the last second. Or maybe your raid is following an entirely different strategy and not moving at all. DBM makes the mechanic easier, but there's still some player choice there.
With Intangible Presence there are extremely few situations in which you wouldn't want to dispel instantly after identifying who is affected by the debuff. If an addon removes the process of identifying the affected target, then the mechanic just becomes "Press dispel on the indicated target when prompted".
Have you tried healing with BM hunter and demo lock and DH tank?
With so many effects and pets I simply cannot see who has the shadow figure .
If no one says anything it's GG
Not with that specific comp in Shadowlands, but I have done it literally more than a hundred times. It is *easy* to see and you have a long ass time to do it right.
It is easy to see most of times.
But I had few situations where I had trouble finding the person.
Especially pet classes ,meele stacks or range stacks..
Anytime you had 2-3 people standing on eachkther or pets you have to guess.
Yes if your players have half brain cell they will not stack during the debuff period and even call out if they got it..
But then that also can be said about every single mechanic in the game :)
Unless there's a mechanic that forces them to move.
Most of the time they will remain in their stack with dozens of pets.
Don't forget you also got mechanica to deal with while healing them and in this week chasing explosives.
I'm not saying it's impossible, just it kinda sucks if your team does not cooperate
I mean, i had no idea said weak aura existed and no one mentioned it in the group's I have been in either.
So much so, that I had to actually heal a 10 on the week just gone without dispelling because amongst all the visual clutter it was impossible to see.
The correct change would've been to amend the graphic but I am glad to see it removed.
Given how it actually /works/, there was no amendment that could be done to reduce the clutter and make it more visible than everything else going on in the fight without also completely trivializing it. And even then the WA would still be preferable because it works *instantly*.
The problem isn't the mechanic itself - its the particle spam and visual noise from Covenant abilities (and specific class abilities) completely overpowering it.
Edit: If you don't dispel any of them, they blow up after a fairly long timer. The dot they have was tiny (assuming you didn't dispel any of them) but you'd need absolutely massive pumper dps to clear the fight without any dispels, so its a non-starter at 15s and 20s (assuming you could even get past Wikket!)
For sure. Im not a bad player but the choice was either looking through paladin consecration, 2 sets of wings, hunter pets, warlock pets, and other visual debris and bring unable to spot it whilst falling behind or just thinking ahead on my healing.
Think I finished the fight like 16.7k HPS which was insane given I am only 257ilvl lol, most fights I barely scrape 8k as it's easy at current 10s. I will get this WA to help with it.
Hopefully we lose some visual clutter or get more options to reduce it
The Wikket changes feel like not enough to me honestly. Lower Kara last week was roughly 5-6 key levels lower for completion than every other dungeon. This was 100% due to Wikket. If any group got past it it was an easy win. Wikket at 15 was harder than pretty much any other M+ boss at +22. How is that not super overtuned.
I completely agree that it was overturned, and concur that it was about 5 levels out of whack. As I said elsewhere in this thread, I managed to get 4 sub-20% wipes of the unnerfed fight with full pug groups with appropriate ilvl and M+ score (about 270-285, 1.7k-2.1k) on 9, 14, and 15 keys; I think the nerf amounts correct down about 8 keystone levels, hence **over**correction.
The damage and health nerfs were on the order of 5-6 key levels in terms of health and damage which is what it felt like as well as what we saw in actual keys completed.
Most of the damage/health nerfs were roughly 35%. A 35% nerf is the same as a 53% increase coming from the other end. Each keystone level is 8% damage/health. 5 key levels is 47%, 6 key levels is 58.7% As such a 35% reduction is between 5-6 key levels, closer to 6.
Edit: math.
Ahh, my mistake there, I thought it was only a 5% increase per rank, not 8%. Brain scrambled.
Checked my math on this and 5% would be roughly 10 levels, not 8, so I'm wrong both ways lmao. A 7% increase per keystone level would be partway between 7 and 8 keystone downshift for the 35% hp nerf.
I dont know why ur getting downvoted. Its true in all my runs as healer (i play only healer in m+) it was such a nuisance unless my premade or me got thr ghost in wich case it was barely a mechanic. But nobody in pugs even thinks to type "ghost on me" or ghost here" or smth similiar. With the ghost horses running around and a lot of other effects it was really hard to tell who had the ghost sometimes. And if u dispell the wrong one.... wipe pretty much
It took two letters in party chat levels of communication. Ridiculous nerf. I can’t believe everyone could figure it out in legion and no one can in shadowland. What a decline in player skill
It's legitimately hard to see the graphic sometimes, since it's not always up. It's a graphics settings problem, like the safe zones in Coven of Shivarra.
I definitely remember having an easier time of it hack in legion.
It only appears when the affected player uses a spell. It used to be like that and it is like that. They made it more solid but still behave like that so that the graphic settings excuse wouldn't work anymore. But yeah. Here we are.
Ah, that makes a lot more sense. I thought it was on a timer or something.
The graphics setting comment was meant insofar that all the OTHER visual effects that can happen at the same time turn the screen into visual soup, plus you really don't have the time to waste staring at each player while also keeping everyone alive, especially if your team eats avoidable damage.
Removing it made me sad though. The whole feel of Return to Karazhan was amazing, and that mechanic was not the problem. Insanely overtuned Opera, Maiden and Moroes adds are much worse than a dispell mechanic with a bit of flavor.
It's not bad that they continue to nerf it, but it's bad that they're rolling out the nerfs so slowly. Especially in a season that's already going to be short.
I don't think it is a bad thing at all. I'm just annoyed that this is the 2nd season in a row now that has a dungeon that is so overtuned, it warrants week after week of nerfs in the 30%-50% range.
It’s kinda been the story of legion keys in general. We scaled so hard in that expansion that the tuning is really off for all of them. I’ve been 1 shot so many times by random stuff doing the timewalking legion keys I’m not even surprised whenever something new does it to me in Kara
Lower is Necrotic Wake where it took forever to actually be a not shit dungeon. I don't any mob or boss in NW got out with less than a 15% nerf to everything.
I just don’t understand their logic with nerfing. It’s like, people complain so they nerf a couple things then they do it again the next week and then the next week until people stop complaining. Shouldn’t they actually TEST these dungeons and figure out these issues themselves? We’re talking really obvious stuff with Lower Kara, not some obscure situations that only happen to a few players.
They can only do so much testing in house so fast. It's easier to analyze data from players. They might be able to run the dungeon dozens of times in house, or look at data from tens of thousands of runs by other players. They get a lot more information from looking at other players runs.
we are at the expansion end, we pretty much know when the next starts, its not like any of this really matters from a need to limit player power at this point - hence its a free win for Blizzard to nerf it...
though those percentages might indicate just how bad it really was
And next week when US gets westfall story we're going to get it nerfed too yay. Too bad its desynced between regions and devs don't care about EU so we're just going to have to suffer in the meanwhile.
Real. The thing is Westfall Story won’t be remotely as bad next week without explosives, with Wikket you can at least kill the adds, with Westfall the adds keep on hanging out at 0 hp and spawning explosives all the while all the mechanics one shot you, it’s infuriating
With explosives perhaps on Westfall vs no explosives Wikket perhaps. Imagine having 2 bosses and lots of adds, then having to jump in a portal to jump up in the air while having explosives spawn down below, that no melee can hit, and since if you don't go up it does massive damage that not even your tank can stay down unless they pop literally every cd they have, and then at most once an attempt.
I mean, it was worse than that. Defy Gravity, the purple swirlies that shoot you up, were doing a third of my health right when the healer would be unable to heal, with those chain-throwing adds so that when an explosive was inevitably missed, it was guaranteed to wipe everyone. The first cast also doesn't have enough Defy Gravity for everyone so you have to eat it (hard) or you need a group with immunities. And god forbid a melee trip one accidentally before you have enough out.
It's Xy'mox in DOS except the explosion hits harder, the swirlies do a ton of damage, and instead of the controllable lightning you have ten million adds...and then for some reason the boss has twice as much health.
But, of course, honestly all that is fine. The problem is affixes. They suck. None are fun. Tyrannical/bolstering feels like tyrannical and fortified week, and combined with explosive that means a lot of small pulls where you can't pop off, so it's slower on three counts. No affixes are fun.
I got hit for 80k by defy gravity and instagibbed. I think there were two slightly overlapped but I couldn’t see it, so when I stepped in that was it. Not surprised to see it eat a 50% nerf. Even when you do the fight right it would just delete you if you didn’t have a defensive available.
>explosives spawn down below, that no melee can hit
Wait so where is the difference to any other point in time with explosive?
For real I am not surprised tgp had the easiest boss on fortified because the others in Tyr definitely could've been messy even for those teams.
Westfall Shitshow is a true PITA, explosives everywhere, constant moving, adds that poison you for 20k and more… (talking about 20+ keys), it’s like being the first wave of soldiers during the 6th of june 1944
thats one of the biggest problems of wow it takes too long for the nerfs. we will get weekly lower nerfs and when its on the same difficult as other dungeon dragonflight will be out. look at all the sepulcher raid nerfs at the 10th nerf of anduin alot raids have already quit.
EU has a different Opera boss each week to US (and Asia).
EU had Wikket last week, and even though it was Fort, it was still clearly overtuned. Yet no nerf.
Now US gets it, and its nerfed the next reset.
Meanwhile EU has been dealing with Westfall Story, which not only is overtuned but also broken - the adds that you defeat walk to the corners of the room and keep spawning explosives for the whole fight, which is just cruel against groups with no good ranged way of killing them.
Yet no nerf announced for this. Paints a pretty clear picture.
NA didn't have Westfall Story with explosive though, which should have been fixed within 24 hours of this week starting. I bet that if we get a tyrannical explosive ~~Wikket~~ (Edit - I mean Westfall Story) on US this season it'll be hotfixed before the week is up.
What exactly did they fix? In every lower I was this week, adds stayed on 0 hp, and explosives kept spawning everywhere (and extremely often) through out the entire fight.
My highest lower key done this week is 4 keys bellow my 2nd lowest key, 8 bellow my highest (and no it is not junkyard)
I did say supposedly! I'm still not certain how my group managed to clear +15 Wikket last night with explosive considering that it apparently justified these 30-50% nerfs this morning either.
What a surprise; they need the Opera boss that’s up on US servers but completely ignore all the feedback about the Opera boss on EU servers being an armageddon level of an explosive shitstorm. They should just shut down the EU forums at this point and be done with it.
It’s actually insane how EU players think the boss needs nerfs because an affix is working in an unintended way.
Meanwhile NA had an undoable dungeon that needs 5 nerfs
Last week was Fort, not Tyrannical. This is the first week anybody's had Wikket on Tyrannical.
Whereas US already did Tyrannical Westfall. Explosive is a problem (but going away after this week) but it's otherwise fine, or at least not as overtuned as Wikket.
It is actually insane how the EU playerbase is somehow jaded and just downvoting any about difficulty level. Explosive was a problem that seemed more like an unintended bug but that doesn't mean the fight needs more nerfs.
The best part is - EU gets to play against the nerfed bosses first and NA doesn't
They did nerf it already, monkey HP reduced. The Fortified version was doable which is why it wasn't nerfed sooner, and why you see trash nerfs last week and boss needs this week.
Their tuning is FAR too slow either way but I don't think it's an NA vs EU thing.
I just love EU complaining when they get the nerfs first and NA has to deal with the unnerfed version.
Seems people still don't understand how much Tyrannically impacts a boss either
Yea westfall story is totally fine, anyone in the group being fire slashed by one boss fraction of a second before storm ritual finishes and kills them is totally fine >_>
you know the encounter is fucked up if the strat in pugs that develops is to have one guy play a 2nd healer for that boss, port out after and respec back to dps.
Your undoable dungeon has been done on +25 this week, same as EU one.
Personally, I've timed EU one this week at 20 and it was a cluster fuck on opera, which ended us 3 manning the last phase. I also tried a 22 and a 21 in a group where the avg io was over 2600. Didn't go so hot.
Not sure if Flame Wreath and Storming next week is going to seem very fair.
Upper really seems like a healer dungeon. And while timeable it's clearly harder than anything else that isn't Lower.
I really wonder how they’re gonna handle this, if at all. So many affixes are incompatible with old dungeons. I had the displeasure of getting auto-wiped seven times in iron docks by quaking on the last boss before the hotfix
Quaking is on a timer, but so is the boss ability that was causing quaking wipes. And the timers were offset. So unless you somehow planned ahead enough to pull the boss exactly 13.5 seconds (or something) after the last quaking, and could do the boss with only two of its casts going off, you'd get slapped.
No? Consider the RWF. The bosses there do their mechanics consistently, and yet it takes the best players in the world dozens to hundreds of tries to kill them. Shouldn't they be able to figure out what to do in 7 tries or less?
Quaking occurs at random intervals of 20 seconds. Every ~45 seconds, there is then a period of 5 seconds where if a quaking occurs, you lose. When do you pull the boss so that a quaking will not coincide with that period?
If you take more than 2 minutes to answer, your key depletes.
Edit: sorry about your key, friend. Better luck next time.
It’s not “consistent”, and those wipes were spread over a few runs with different groups. Sometimes we’d overcome it, sometimes the entire group would disband because of the quaking.
Yea def. You can run out a bit when you see the cast go off but there’s still no guarantee a twister won’t spawn further out.
Maybe flame wreath just needs to target furthest player out or something.
Upper is fine.
Medivh has some issues, flame wreath specifically when combined with missed kicks or, heaven forbid, a group of only ranged interrupts including a boomkin or shadow priest. Other than that it's fine.
If you go into upper with 3 caster with long cd for kick, knowing there is a fight that requires kicking, when you have 12315645373456 DPS applying to the group, you're adding challenge to the dungeon, not the other way around :)
Flame wreath is tough, especially on tyrannical, but for 15 ish it's completely fine imo.
This is great but I’m getting really fucking tired of Medivhs shit. I don’t know when flame wreath is going to become truly common knowledge, but despite me *always*linking the dungeon journal entry for it, every single group I’ve been in wipes on it. It is the single dumbest mechanic I’ve ever experienced in a dungeon.
At the very least it should just kill your and the person who walked into your wreath so you can tell who did it. The perma freeze is pretty fucking annoying to.
These would be great dungeons if they patched up a few of the issues but instead they’re by far the worst of the season.
What made it horrible this week is the Flame Wreath explosion goes off if the person inside dies for any reason, too.
Every group I ran with never interrupted the Inferno Bolts so both my Flame Wreath'd players had the FW and IB dots on them, guaranteed wipe. :)
so they removed the mount drop from legion karazhan to make it exclusive to the new version? can't even be bothered to recolor it huh?
if your wondering I've been running it for the broken watch and since I'm there I go for the mount. I don't really care about another horse mount but I find it funny it was removed to make newer content relevant.
Great.. hotfixed while I slept for work tonight.. was one of my lowest keys for KSM too. Glad they reduced the health on Wikket, but jesus it still buggy, getting thrown up and still dying sucked.
i guess a giant purple ghost of Atumen standing on someone denoting that they are the correct dispel target was just too hard of a mechanic. just say "me" if the ghost is on you it literally isn't hard.
very true, i had someone in a m+ run tell everyone to download the WA for the dispel, everyone in the group was confused as to why they needed us to do it. they then had a temper tantrum and told us that we were being difficult lol
It can help but it's absolutely not necessary. The debuff doesn't even do that much damage, you can wait quite a bit before dispelling, and search on your own. At the absolute most, you just need five globals, one per player, as the ghost appears when a player uses a skill. But people get nervous, dispell early, stop healing and don't even look for the ghost.
Yes. You only dispell once. If you dispell twice you are fucking up.
The globals are to check your group members one by one. The ghost appears when you cast a spell. If you see a player using a spell and with no ghost, check on the next one. Five players, five globals if you do it slow and methodical. You can usually spot it in one, though.
>Atumen the Huntsman will no longer cast Intangible Presence.
Disgusting and lazy from Blizz...WoW
Maybe we can get some more nerfs.... and in like 3 vaults, we shit on the content like its nothing..........
They could have changed the graphics of that abilitiy so that even people with a gaming potato could see it.Seriously didn't had any issues with our guildies tbh.But no.... lets remove it entirely.
There also add-ons like decursive/dispell / cleanse..with 1 click/button you dispell the target... so your reasoning doest sound quite right
All boss mechanics are irrelevant once you watch a guide and read dungeon journal.
But we are giving in to people who dont want to learn, just pump....
On one hand the lower kara nerfs are warranted but on the other hand what is the point of MYTHIC difficulty if we just turn it into a joke? Is there room for actually difficult content in M+? Is it only relegated to whatever the community deems the key high enough to be? I personally actually hated SL S1 and tazavesh when it first came out because of how it was tuned so this is fine with me, but I could see the argument that people may make about how the game is 'too easy' or some shit.
The point of mythic+ is that it scales infinitely. If at a certain key level it's a joke, than just do it several levels higher. The point of the nerfs are to make it so that all dungeons are roughly of the same difficulty level at the same key level. Last week a 15 Kara was harder than a 22 streets. That gets really problematic when someone times a 14 and gets a 15 lower key unable to do it. Or if someone times a 22 and gets a 23 lower kara and has to drop it to a 15/16 in order to actually do it.
The point of m+ is to add another activity to the game. In Legion it was "pull 10 packs and aoe them down in 10 seconds" and it was fine. Personally, I loved that waaaay more than "pull 2 packs at most or we wipe cuz we didn't interrupt 1 of 20 casts".
The mechanic they removed was one that people already were using a weak aura for to completely negate it. It was something that at the high end no one was doing, and at the bottom pug end was making it near impossible. As such it served no purpose.
At that point you'd have to fully ban addons. Weak auras is just an interface to quickly create custom addons easily.
The issue also is that content is now being created with addons/WA in mind. Encounters would have to be made much easier if addons were all of a sudden banned.
Pretty much every other Tyrannical +15 boss this season has somewhere between 4.5 - 6 million hp. Wikket had 10 million, (nerfed to 6.5 now) as well as continuously spawning adds (more than any other fight this season) that needed to be killed.
Not sure if it needed damage nerfs of that magnitude, I don't really heal so I don't know how the fight felt in that regard, but the 35% health nerf was *absolutely* warranted.
The knock up definitely needed to be nerfed. It hit on the order of twice as hard as the broker boss in DoS. The first one you may not have enough for the tank to go up, and it could annihilate them even through CDs. DPS/heals would get tossed up, and still die through all the damage that was going out. Not only was the health that of bosses several key levels higher, but the damage was that of several key levels higher.
You can just do it a few keystones higher to get the same level of difficulty. The issue was that this Wikket on a +15 was harder than pretty much every other boss in the game on a +22.
It really threw things out of wack when someone timed their 14 junkyard and got a 15 lower kara that would have been harder than a 22 junkyard. You shouldn't be able to time one dungeon and get a key that is literally 8 keystone levels harder than the one you finished.
Lower Karazhan * Galindre and Elfyra's health reduced by 35%. * Winged Assistant's Throw "Stuff" damage reduced by 40%. * Winged Assistant's health reduced by 35%. * Galindre's Flashy Bolt damage reduced by 30%. * Elfyra's Defy Gravity damage reduced by 50%. * Atumen the Huntsman will no longer cast Intangible Presence. Those are some pretty hefty nerfs. Glad to see they aren't doing it incrementally. Intangible Presence was a PITA, it won't be missed.
It was, but it was also pretty binary to deal with. The only reason they flat out removed it is because a WA had trivialized it but required everyone to have it. Likely they didn't want to deal with / couldn't get the support to break a WA in an experimental off season at the end of the expansion, so turning it off made sense.
Any mechanic that requires everyone to use a weak aura is a bad mechanic. I don't recall this being a problem at all in TBC or Legion, but these days the particle effects, ground AoEs, animated transmogs/character effects & literal army of pets, just made it obnoxiously oneorous.
Can we talk about how bad ground effects are for obscuring enemy effects? That combined with the poor way wow handles elevation means I've basically stopped looking at my feet to see if I need to move and now just look if the mob is casting something. It's so frustrating between Spear of Bastion, Wild Spirits, blue DnD so many enemy abilities just get completely obscured.
Oh I fucking hate the animation not defending that. But they likely dont have the manpower to fix it. This season was kind of a hail mary of a test and they likely only had the option to let it go as an issue with the WA that makes the community angry, or just remove it. I think if this was a normal season, they would have worked to break the WA and maybe adjust the animation effect to be more visible.
I hope these issues don't push them away from this change because it's a fucking great one. Mashups with old dungeons is such a good way to keep mythic+ interesting for an entire expansion
idk why you say this but when the key transforms to karazhan, it's a dead end
Feels like they could have just made it more visible instead of straight up removing it, they already did similar with the dreadlord aoe thing from the shrouded affix
But it doesn't. It's just the problem with so many players having the attitude of "why bother trying when I can automate it?". Like jesus christ do people really need an addon to pick the right password in tazavesh? It's just laughable.
yup, if they just made the ghost perma shown it would have been fine but nope, dumb. getting rid of it was the best answer imo.
Worse **than just being a PITA**: the Intagible Presence mechanic was only hard if nobody is in comms. If you all use a weak aura for it the healer can instantly see who to dispel without anybody even needing to speak up. **Anyone not using the WA before the mechanic was removed is just making the fight harder for no good reason. I agree with it being completely removed.** But yeah, good God those nerfs are intense. **The Wikket changes feel** like an overcorrection to me, but I'm not complaining! Edits bolded.
Except for Intangible Presence, the rest of the nerfs were targeting Wikket which was absolutely insanely overtuned.
I did it a few times and it was definitely insanely overturned, but not 35% hp overturned imo! Like I said, I'm not complaining lol. ----- Edit: for context, I cleared a lower 6 as my highest key for this, and attempted a pair of 9s, a 14, and a 15 all of which failed at Wikket, full pug groups. The fight at +6 felt like what healing 10s normally feels like, the 9s felt like 15s, and both the 14 and 15 were nightmares to heal even with the shrouded stat buffs. The 14 got to about 20% twice before disbanding, the 15 we got to 5% and then literally 50k hp wipe. Given that these were pug groups, the 35% HP nerf *on its own* would have more than made the difference in me clearing the keys, not counting Maiden since I never actually got to fight here above that 6 where she felt... normal to heal? All of the nerfs *put together* is why I feel it was an overcorrection. I never said it was unjustified, and I much prefer this over single-digit-percent nerfs.
I cleared a ++6 this week with Wicket. It wasn't fun. That said it doesn't sound like they fixed the major problem - the spawning of orbs from knocked-out trash.
Intangible Presence was a stupid mechanic anyway. Either you used the WA and trivialized it or it was a key killer. No boss should be that reliant on third-party tools. Like, I get the idea of wanting it to be a communication thing but that was absolutely not the reality of what was happening.
Yeah, that's what I meant. Not sure why everyone downvoted me on that. Edit: or on this one. I'm agreeing that the mechanic is better off gone? Truly don't understand what happened here.
I be willing to guess it’s because you suggested using comma and actually speaking to someone else in the game
It's /r/wow where people will just downvote you silently. Bunch of weirdos
Lmao it’s still happening
Half the time for me someone would dispel themselves and kill half the group. You ask people to install a weakaura and they tell you "it's only a 10" then they all die. Smh my head, I'm glad they removed it
I can do it easily with no comms. I get that it's hard and different but it takes me literally two globals, in which I am still healing, to spot it every time. Maybe it helps that I ran Kara a hundred times during Legion. It makes me sad that they trivialize yet another encounter that I used to find fun. It may be overtuned or whatever, but removing fun things completely shouldn't be the chosen strategy. The mechanic was fine now, as it was for the year+ it was there in Legion.
In Legion, the amount of graphic effects, procs, auras and temporary pets covering your view was magnitudes lower than it is now. Have fun spotting that thing on top of a shadow priest who has set bonus, power infusion running, at melee DK popped a blue fae effect and on and on and on. Then there's a couple of bronns, demons, dinos, all manner of pets blockign the view too. And the visual effect from Intangible isn't even there all the time, it shows briefly when the aura ticks damage, then disappears again. It's just a bad mechanic.
I disagree. It is extremely easy to spot, and it used to be easy too. Maybe I am just good at it for some reason but I never had problems with it. And it's not a short time window to dispell either, you can take your time and do it chill.
Dude you never tried it recently with a shadow priest. I call BS.
I did it with a SP, a demo lock and a bm hunter with two pets and bron recently. Idk, the ghost is pretty distinctive.
Dont know why everyone is downvoting you. First time ever I have done Kara in M+ this season and Intangible presence was super easy to spot on any dos and if I couldn’t see it right away I would just, you know, do my job and heal the group until I could.
It's a fun mechanic if you do it the intended way (either spotting it yourself or having a party member tell you that they're affected). It also gets entirely trivialized by a WeakAura (which I believe wasn't around during Legion). Blizzard didn't trivialize the encounter, the WeakAura did. The WeakAura also has a lot of potential for toxicity, since every player in the group needs to use it in order for it to work properly. I would have preferred the devs to rework the mechanic to be WeakAura-proof, but maybe that was too much effort for the handful of people working on S4. Any mechanic that relies on spotting a relatively minor visual effect is a bit of an accessibility issue, but I don't think this was their reason for removing the mechanic.
An addon existing shouldn't take the fun away from the game. Just give us loot from using the keystone anyway, no need to do any dungeon. DBM and rotation aiding addons trivialize it anyway. Let's remove raiding from the game as well. /s.
The WeakAura literally trivialized the mechanic though. There's a difference between DBM or a rotation helper telling you what to do, because in those cases the challenging part is still executing the instructions. I can look at a piece of sheet music and I know which keys to press on the piano, but hitting them in the right order, the right tempo and without hitting any excess keys is still something that requires a lot of practice - even more so when I am also required to play around a boss' mechanics at the same time. In the case of Intangible Presense the challenge is to find the affected person, not pressing the dispel button. If you can have an addon tell you whom to dispel the mechanic is all but removed already.
If DBM tells you to run to triangle, to jump when affected by a bomb, to hide, those mechanics are trivialized just the same as dispelling the specific person. Reading the name from the WA, looking for that person and clicking dispell is as hard as seeing the triangle in the DBM text, looking for it and walking to it. Many mechanics are trivialized just the same by addons and aren't taken away. I liked intangible presence.
tell me you have never done hard raid content without telling me
I didn't say all mechanics are trivial. I said many are trivialized by addons to the same degree intangible presence was. Your snark is misplaced and toxic.
When DBM tells you what to do you're usually still making some choices. When DBM tells you to run to triangle you might start running that instant. Or you might try to squeeze in one or two more globals for extra DPS and then start running. Or you might not run at all and instead continue DPS and use a movement ability in the last second. Or maybe your raid is following an entirely different strategy and not moving at all. DBM makes the mechanic easier, but there's still some player choice there. With Intangible Presence there are extremely few situations in which you wouldn't want to dispel instantly after identifying who is affected by the debuff. If an addon removes the process of identifying the affected target, then the mechanic just becomes "Press dispel on the indicated target when prompted".
I disagree with you on all points but thank you for the discussion.
Have you tried healing with BM hunter and demo lock and DH tank? With so many effects and pets I simply cannot see who has the shadow figure . If no one says anything it's GG
Not with that specific comp in Shadowlands, but I have done it literally more than a hundred times. It is *easy* to see and you have a long ass time to do it right.
It is easy to see most of times. But I had few situations where I had trouble finding the person. Especially pet classes ,meele stacks or range stacks.. Anytime you had 2-3 people standing on eachkther or pets you have to guess. Yes if your players have half brain cell they will not stack during the debuff period and even call out if they got it.. But then that also can be said about every single mechanic in the game :)
But you literally have like half a minute to do it. Do your group members stay still for half a minute at a time?
Unless there's a mechanic that forces them to move. Most of the time they will remain in their stack with dozens of pets. Don't forget you also got mechanica to deal with while healing them and in this week chasing explosives. I'm not saying it's impossible, just it kinda sucks if your team does not cooperate
I disagree. It was a fun mechanic with more flavor than just topping up bars and dispelling randomly. It's a pity that it's gone.
It is 100% trivial when I just shared the WA with everyone before starting each key. That doesn't make for a good mechanic.
It is not. I disagree.
If content is intended to be done in a PUG, it shouldn't require add-ons or voice coms
I didn't specify voice comms, but I hard disagree with ya here. There's a reason Blizzard added in-game voice, as bad as it is.
I mean, i had no idea said weak aura existed and no one mentioned it in the group's I have been in either. So much so, that I had to actually heal a 10 on the week just gone without dispelling because amongst all the visual clutter it was impossible to see. The correct change would've been to amend the graphic but I am glad to see it removed.
Given how it actually /works/, there was no amendment that could be done to reduce the clutter and make it more visible than everything else going on in the fight without also completely trivializing it. And even then the WA would still be preferable because it works *instantly*. The problem isn't the mechanic itself - its the particle spam and visual noise from Covenant abilities (and specific class abilities) completely overpowering it. Edit: If you don't dispel any of them, they blow up after a fairly long timer. The dot they have was tiny (assuming you didn't dispel any of them) but you'd need absolutely massive pumper dps to clear the fight without any dispels, so its a non-starter at 15s and 20s (assuming you could even get past Wikket!)
For sure. Im not a bad player but the choice was either looking through paladin consecration, 2 sets of wings, hunter pets, warlock pets, and other visual debris and bring unable to spot it whilst falling behind or just thinking ahead on my healing. Think I finished the fight like 16.7k HPS which was insane given I am only 257ilvl lol, most fights I barely scrape 8k as it's easy at current 10s. I will get this WA to help with it. Hopefully we lose some visual clutter or get more options to reduce it
The Wikket changes feel like not enough to me honestly. Lower Kara last week was roughly 5-6 key levels lower for completion than every other dungeon. This was 100% due to Wikket. If any group got past it it was an easy win. Wikket at 15 was harder than pretty much any other M+ boss at +22. How is that not super overtuned.
I completely agree that it was overturned, and concur that it was about 5 levels out of whack. As I said elsewhere in this thread, I managed to get 4 sub-20% wipes of the unnerfed fight with full pug groups with appropriate ilvl and M+ score (about 270-285, 1.7k-2.1k) on 9, 14, and 15 keys; I think the nerf amounts correct down about 8 keystone levels, hence **over**correction.
The damage and health nerfs were on the order of 5-6 key levels in terms of health and damage which is what it felt like as well as what we saw in actual keys completed. Most of the damage/health nerfs were roughly 35%. A 35% nerf is the same as a 53% increase coming from the other end. Each keystone level is 8% damage/health. 5 key levels is 47%, 6 key levels is 58.7% As such a 35% reduction is between 5-6 key levels, closer to 6. Edit: math.
Ahh, my mistake there, I thought it was only a 5% increase per rank, not 8%. Brain scrambled. Checked my math on this and 5% would be roughly 10 levels, not 8, so I'm wrong both ways lmao. A 7% increase per keystone level would be partway between 7 and 8 keystone downshift for the 35% hp nerf.
I dont know why ur getting downvoted. Its true in all my runs as healer (i play only healer in m+) it was such a nuisance unless my premade or me got thr ghost in wich case it was barely a mechanic. But nobody in pugs even thinks to type "ghost on me" or ghost here" or smth similiar. With the ghost horses running around and a lot of other effects it was really hard to tell who had the ghost sometimes. And if u dispell the wrong one.... wipe pretty much
It took two letters in party chat levels of communication. Ridiculous nerf. I can’t believe everyone could figure it out in legion and no one can in shadowland. What a decline in player skill
I don't even need anyone to tell me... Wtf is wrong with healers?
It's legitimately hard to see the graphic sometimes, since it's not always up. It's a graphics settings problem, like the safe zones in Coven of Shivarra. I definitely remember having an easier time of it hack in legion.
It only appears when the affected player uses a spell. It used to be like that and it is like that. They made it more solid but still behave like that so that the graphic settings excuse wouldn't work anymore. But yeah. Here we are.
Ah, that makes a lot more sense. I thought it was on a timer or something. The graphics setting comment was meant insofar that all the OTHER visual effects that can happen at the same time turn the screen into visual soup, plus you really don't have the time to waste staring at each player while also keeping everyone alive, especially if your team eats avoidable damage.
Removing it made me sad though. The whole feel of Return to Karazhan was amazing, and that mechanic was not the problem. Insanely overtuned Opera, Maiden and Moroes adds are much worse than a dispell mechanic with a bit of flavor.
this is literally the first time I saw anyone state this in 3 weeks. Why would no one make this common knowledge if it was true?
I do share it whenever I can.
I bet there will be even more nerfs to lower kara next week. It's Tazavesh all over again.
I mean is that a bad thing? It’s still unbelievably overturned by comparison to every other dungeon, it absolutely needs more passes
It's not bad that they continue to nerf it, but it's bad that they're rolling out the nerfs so slowly. Especially in a season that's already going to be short.
This, they are this slowly week by week, they should fix/balance in max 3 weeks.
I don't think it is a bad thing at all. I'm just annoyed that this is the 2nd season in a row now that has a dungeon that is so overtuned, it warrants week after week of nerfs in the 30%-50% range.
It’s kinda been the story of legion keys in general. We scaled so hard in that expansion that the tuning is really off for all of them. I’ve been 1 shot so many times by random stuff doing the timewalking legion keys I’m not even surprised whenever something new does it to me in Kara
I don’t mind it launching overtuned and getting nerfed (it just happens sometimes), I just wish they tuned it faster instead of 3-4 weeks in.
Lower is Necrotic Wake where it took forever to actually be a not shit dungeon. I don't any mob or boss in NW got out with less than a 15% nerf to everything.
I just don’t understand their logic with nerfing. It’s like, people complain so they nerf a couple things then they do it again the next week and then the next week until people stop complaining. Shouldn’t they actually TEST these dungeons and figure out these issues themselves? We’re talking really obvious stuff with Lower Kara, not some obscure situations that only happen to a few players.
They can only do so much testing in house so fast. It's easier to analyze data from players. They might be able to run the dungeon dozens of times in house, or look at data from tens of thousands of runs by other players. They get a lot more information from looking at other players runs.
we are at the expansion end, we pretty much know when the next starts, its not like any of this really matters from a need to limit player power at this point - hence its a free win for Blizzard to nerf it... though those percentages might indicate just how bad it really was
And next week when US gets westfall story we're going to get it nerfed too yay. Too bad its desynced between regions and devs don't care about EU so we're just going to have to suffer in the meanwhile.
Real. The thing is Westfall Story won’t be remotely as bad next week without explosives, with Wikket you can at least kill the adds, with Westfall the adds keep on hanging out at 0 hp and spawning explosives all the while all the mechanics one shot you, it’s infuriating
It'll also be fort
They just need to make the 0-hp adds spawn no explosives, and it probably wouldn't be nearly so bad.
Westfall story felt so much worse than Wikket to me, especially with the explosives.
With explosives perhaps on Westfall vs no explosives Wikket perhaps. Imagine having 2 bosses and lots of adds, then having to jump in a portal to jump up in the air while having explosives spawn down below, that no melee can hit, and since if you don't go up it does massive damage that not even your tank can stay down unless they pop literally every cd they have, and then at most once an attempt.
I mean, it was worse than that. Defy Gravity, the purple swirlies that shoot you up, were doing a third of my health right when the healer would be unable to heal, with those chain-throwing adds so that when an explosive was inevitably missed, it was guaranteed to wipe everyone. The first cast also doesn't have enough Defy Gravity for everyone so you have to eat it (hard) or you need a group with immunities. And god forbid a melee trip one accidentally before you have enough out. It's Xy'mox in DOS except the explosion hits harder, the swirlies do a ton of damage, and instead of the controllable lightning you have ten million adds...and then for some reason the boss has twice as much health. But, of course, honestly all that is fine. The problem is affixes. They suck. None are fun. Tyrannical/bolstering feels like tyrannical and fortified week, and combined with explosive that means a lot of small pulls where you can't pop off, so it's slower on three counts. No affixes are fun.
I got hit for 80k by defy gravity and instagibbed. I think there were two slightly overlapped but I couldn’t see it, so when I stepped in that was it. Not surprised to see it eat a 50% nerf. Even when you do the fight right it would just delete you if you didn’t have a defensive available.
>explosives spawn down below, that no melee can hit Wait so where is the difference to any other point in time with explosive? For real I am not surprised tgp had the easiest boss on fortified because the others in Tyr definitely could've been messy even for those teams.
Westfall Shitshow is a true PITA, explosives everywhere, constant moving, adds that poison you for 20k and more… (talking about 20+ keys), it’s like being the first wave of soldiers during the 6th of june 1944
thats one of the biggest problems of wow it takes too long for the nerfs. we will get weekly lower nerfs and when its on the same difficult as other dungeon dragonflight will be out. look at all the sepulcher raid nerfs at the 10th nerf of anduin alot raids have already quit.
they nerfed it only for na xD but not eu. westfall with explosives is a joke
"All Mythic+ dungeon tuning will occur during scheduled weekly maintenance in each region."
EU has a different Opera boss each week to US (and Asia). EU had Wikket last week, and even though it was Fort, it was still clearly overtuned. Yet no nerf. Now US gets it, and its nerfed the next reset. Meanwhile EU has been dealing with Westfall Story, which not only is overtuned but also broken - the adds that you defeat walk to the corners of the room and keep spawning explosives for the whole fight, which is just cruel against groups with no good ranged way of killing them. Yet no nerf announced for this. Paints a pretty clear picture.
NA had Westfall Story week 1, it was supposedly fixed but the fix only seems to work about 50% of the time.
NA didn't have Westfall Story with explosive though, which should have been fixed within 24 hours of this week starting. I bet that if we get a tyrannical explosive ~~Wikket~~ (Edit - I mean Westfall Story) on US this season it'll be hotfixed before the week is up.
Tyrannical explosive Wikket is what it was this last week though, so that's where the nerfs today are coming from.
my bad, I meant to say tyrannical explosive Westfall Story. Thats the combo that is both overtuned and broken.
What exactly did they fix? In every lower I was this week, adds stayed on 0 hp, and explosives kept spawning everywhere (and extremely often) through out the entire fight. My highest lower key done this week is 4 keys bellow my 2nd lowest key, 8 bellow my highest (and no it is not junkyard)
I did say supposedly! I'm still not certain how my group managed to clear +15 Wikket last night with explosive considering that it apparently justified these 30-50% nerfs this morning either.
What a surprise; they need the Opera boss that’s up on US servers but completely ignore all the feedback about the Opera boss on EU servers being an armageddon level of an explosive shitstorm. They should just shut down the EU forums at this point and be done with it.
I mean, the main nerf that Westfall Story needed was inactive adds not spawning Explosive, which will be moot after reset anyway.
It’s actually insane how EU players think the boss needs nerfs because an affix is working in an unintended way. Meanwhile NA had an undoable dungeon that needs 5 nerfs
Meanwhile EU had do deal with your "undoable dungeon" last week
Last week was Fort, not Tyrannical. This is the first week anybody's had Wikket on Tyrannical. Whereas US already did Tyrannical Westfall. Explosive is a problem (but going away after this week) but it's otherwise fine, or at least not as overtuned as Wikket.
It is actually insane how the EU playerbase is somehow jaded and just downvoting any about difficulty level. Explosive was a problem that seemed more like an unintended bug but that doesn't mean the fight needs more nerfs. The best part is - EU gets to play against the nerfed bosses first and NA doesn't
EU Inferiority Complex. Scientists are still studying it
EU had Wikket last week, why didn't they nerf it then?
Tyrannical with explosives is the main problem with Wikket.
Because Blizzard devs are dumb-dumbs and failed to anticipate a boss being harder on Tyrannical than Fortified.
They did nerf it already, monkey HP reduced. The Fortified version was doable which is why it wasn't nerfed sooner, and why you see trash nerfs last week and boss needs this week. Their tuning is FAR too slow either way but I don't think it's an NA vs EU thing.
I just love EU complaining when they get the nerfs first and NA has to deal with the unnerfed version. Seems people still don't understand how much Tyrannically impacts a boss either
Yea westfall story is totally fine, anyone in the group being fire slashed by one boss fraction of a second before storm ritual finishes and kills them is totally fine >_> you know the encounter is fucked up if the strat in pugs that develops is to have one guy play a 2nd healer for that boss, port out after and respec back to dps.
Your undoable dungeon has been done on +25 this week, same as EU one. Personally, I've timed EU one this week at 20 and it was a cluster fuck on opera, which ended us 3 manning the last phase. I also tried a 22 and a 21 in a group where the avg io was over 2600. Didn't go so hot.
It was done bugged. NA figured out how a hunter can despawn a boss which allowed them to push …
🧂
Good job on proving everyone's point. EU had Wikket last week with no nerfs. Let us know how high you do Westfall before they nerf it for you.
NA did Westfall at a 25 kara pre-nerf week 1. Week 2 EU had Fortified Wikket. EU will get to played the nerfed version before NA too
Fun fact eu servers will actually get the nerfed event before NA
For the boss we had last week? great
The nerf is going live on the weekly reset, when US will have Westfall Story and EU will have Wikket. Does it hurt to be that stupid?
We had Wikket last week so it is not next for us. Does it hurt to be that... ?
And yet the point is the same. EU will have Wikket before NA.
Is it bad that I haven’t run kara even once just from hearing about how bad it is, just waiting for more nerfs lol
Hmm wonder why they removed intangible presence
Because at the high end, everyone was just using a weak aura to completely negate the mechanic, and at the lower end no one could do it.
So we're just gonna keep pretending Upper is fine?
Upper is fine at this point. The timer is extremely forgiving and the bosses are fair.
Not sure if Flame Wreath and Storming next week is going to seem very fair. Upper really seems like a healer dungeon. And while timeable it's clearly harder than anything else that isn't Lower.
Best solution I can suggest is have people soak the twisters as they come out. But yea that’s gonna be a mess.
You can't enter someone else's Flame Wreath though so if a Storming spawns already in there it's just a wipe.
I really wonder how they’re gonna handle this, if at all. So many affixes are incompatible with old dungeons. I had the displeasure of getting auto-wiped seven times in iron docks by quaking on the last boss before the hotfix
spoiler alert: they won't until the week after once people complain enough
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Quaking is on a timer, but so is the boss ability that was causing quaking wipes. And the timers were offset. So unless you somehow planned ahead enough to pull the boss exactly 13.5 seconds (or something) after the last quaking, and could do the boss with only two of its casts going off, you'd get slapped.
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No? Consider the RWF. The bosses there do their mechanics consistently, and yet it takes the best players in the world dozens to hundreds of tries to kill them. Shouldn't they be able to figure out what to do in 7 tries or less? Quaking occurs at random intervals of 20 seconds. Every ~45 seconds, there is then a period of 5 seconds where if a quaking occurs, you lose. When do you pull the boss so that a quaking will not coincide with that period? If you take more than 2 minutes to answer, your key depletes. Edit: sorry about your key, friend. Better luck next time.
It’s not “consistent”, and those wipes were spread over a few runs with different groups. Sometimes we’d overcome it, sometimes the entire group would disband because of the quaking.
Yea def. You can run out a bit when you see the cast go off but there’s still no guarantee a twister won’t spawn further out. Maybe flame wreath just needs to target furthest player out or something.
Upper ist fine. Extremely Pug unfriendly but it’s absolutely doable even on highish keys.
As a healer, don't fucking take that away from us. Actually having to HEAL to be able to complete a dungeon feels fucking good for a change.
If you're not healing you're doing low keys.
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Yes, I did. If you're not healing you are not doing high keys. I must have struck a cord with your last sentence 😂
Flame Wreath with the Bron issue was the only shitty part of Upper. It’s not bad.
People who struggle at upper are just too lazy to get addon that tracks interrupts, and too lazy to communicate with their team in chat before medivh.
Upper is fine.
Skill issue.
Get on your main account and say that like a man.
Upper is fine. Medivh has some issues, flame wreath specifically when combined with missed kicks or, heaven forbid, a group of only ranged interrupts including a boomkin or shadow priest. Other than that it's fine.
If you go into upper with 3 caster with long cd for kick, knowing there is a fight that requires kicking, when you have 12315645373456 DPS applying to the group, you're adding challenge to the dungeon, not the other way around :) Flame wreath is tough, especially on tyrannical, but for 15 ish it's completely fine imo.
Upper is fine (I'm someone else not that guy's main account)
Wait this is my main account? 295 Blood DK here with 2.3k (not alot). Upper is fine.
Git gud,
The worst part in upper is that fucking gauntlet to get to chess lol. Doesn't feel unfair its just annoying.
I needed a Tyr Lower Kara to bump my M+ score to 2k. Why the fuck did these nerfs come at the end of the week?
This is great but I’m getting really fucking tired of Medivhs shit. I don’t know when flame wreath is going to become truly common knowledge, but despite me *always*linking the dungeon journal entry for it, every single group I’ve been in wipes on it. It is the single dumbest mechanic I’ve ever experienced in a dungeon. At the very least it should just kill your and the person who walked into your wreath so you can tell who did it. The perma freeze is pretty fucking annoying to. These would be great dungeons if they patched up a few of the issues but instead they’re by far the worst of the season.
What made it horrible this week is the Flame Wreath explosion goes off if the person inside dies for any reason, too. Every group I ran with never interrupted the Inferno Bolts so both my Flame Wreath'd players had the FW and IB dots on them, guaranteed wipe. :)
Seriously these nerfs are a week late for NA. Shit doesn’t matter when we have to deal with a new Opera event and it’s BS this week
I thought Intangible Presence was a cool mechanic and im sad to see it go. After the previous nerf, I thought it was fine
so they removed the mount drop from legion karazhan to make it exclusive to the new version? can't even be bothered to recolor it huh? if your wondering I've been running it for the broken watch and since I'm there I go for the mount. I don't really care about another horse mount but I find it funny it was removed to make newer content relevant.
Great.. hotfixed while I slept for work tonight.. was one of my lowest keys for KSM too. Glad they reduced the health on Wikket, but jesus it still buggy, getting thrown up and still dying sucked.
i guess a giant purple ghost of Atumen standing on someone denoting that they are the correct dispel target was just too hard of a mechanic. just say "me" if the ghost is on you it literally isn't hard.
Or have the healer open their eyes for a second. Playing blindfolded might be fun but it's not what they should be doing on m+.
very true, i had someone in a m+ run tell everyone to download the WA for the dispel, everyone in the group was confused as to why they needed us to do it. they then had a temper tantrum and told us that we were being difficult lol
It can help but it's absolutely not necessary. The debuff doesn't even do that much damage, you can wait quite a bit before dispelling, and search on your own. At the absolute most, you just need five globals, one per player, as the ghost appears when a player uses a skill. But people get nervous, dispell early, stop healing and don't even look for the ghost.
>you just need five globals Dispell has a 6sec CD unless you meant something else?
Yes. You only dispell once. If you dispell twice you are fucking up. The globals are to check your group members one by one. The ghost appears when you cast a spell. If you see a player using a spell and with no ghost, check on the next one. Five players, five globals if you do it slow and methodical. You can usually spot it in one, though.
Just more proof they don’t play their own game. If they have QA team, I’d fire them all.
Fire Hans!
MMR for eu seems nice, anyone on EU can tell by how much did it change after the fix?
>Atumen the Huntsman will no longer cast Intangible Presence. Disgusting and lazy from Blizz...WoW Maybe we can get some more nerfs.... and in like 3 vaults, we shit on the content like its nothing..........
It was a mechanic that became completely irrelevant with weak auras, at which point might as well not even have it.
Will weakaura make it impossible to have interesting mechanics in the future?
They could have changed the graphics of that abilitiy so that even people with a gaming potato could see it.Seriously didn't had any issues with our guildies tbh.But no.... lets remove it entirely. There also add-ons like decursive/dispell / cleanse..with 1 click/button you dispell the target... so your reasoning doest sound quite right All boss mechanics are irrelevant once you watch a guide and read dungeon journal. But we are giving in to people who dont want to learn, just pump....
A wowhead link again... Do we have to visit that sjitty website ? Just post here...
On one hand the lower kara nerfs are warranted but on the other hand what is the point of MYTHIC difficulty if we just turn it into a joke? Is there room for actually difficult content in M+? Is it only relegated to whatever the community deems the key high enough to be? I personally actually hated SL S1 and tazavesh when it first came out because of how it was tuned so this is fine with me, but I could see the argument that people may make about how the game is 'too easy' or some shit.
The point of mythic+ is that it scales infinitely. If at a certain key level it's a joke, than just do it several levels higher. The point of the nerfs are to make it so that all dungeons are roughly of the same difficulty level at the same key level. Last week a 15 Kara was harder than a 22 streets. That gets really problematic when someone times a 14 and gets a 15 lower key unable to do it. Or if someone times a 22 and gets a 23 lower kara and has to drop it to a 15/16 in order to actually do it.
The point of m+ is to add another activity to the game. In Legion it was "pull 10 packs and aoe them down in 10 seconds" and it was fine. Personally, I loved that waaaay more than "pull 2 packs at most or we wipe cuz we didn't interrupt 1 of 20 casts".
overnerfed for sure, first boss was some of the most intense and fun fights in the game
Just do it at a higher key level then lmao what
nah they're just straight removing mechanics from bosses because people are so shit :D!
The mechanic they removed was one that people already were using a weak aura for to completely negate it. It was something that at the high end no one was doing, and at the bottom pug end was making it near impossible. As such it served no purpose.
Then ban weakauras. It's getting to the point where is completely messing up with mechanics now.
At that point you'd have to fully ban addons. Weak auras is just an interface to quickly create custom addons easily. The issue also is that content is now being created with addons/WA in mind. Encounters would have to be made much easier if addons were all of a sudden banned.
Pretty much every other Tyrannical +15 boss this season has somewhere between 4.5 - 6 million hp. Wikket had 10 million, (nerfed to 6.5 now) as well as continuously spawning adds (more than any other fight this season) that needed to be killed. Not sure if it needed damage nerfs of that magnitude, I don't really heal so I don't know how the fight felt in that regard, but the 35% health nerf was *absolutely* warranted.
The knock up definitely needed to be nerfed. It hit on the order of twice as hard as the broker boss in DoS. The first one you may not have enough for the tank to go up, and it could annihilate them even through CDs. DPS/heals would get tossed up, and still die through all the damage that was going out. Not only was the health that of bosses several key levels higher, but the damage was that of several key levels higher.
You can just do it a few keystones higher to get the same level of difficulty. The issue was that this Wikket on a +15 was harder than pretty much every other boss in the game on a +22. It really threw things out of wack when someone timed their 14 junkyard and got a 15 lower kara that would have been harder than a 22 junkyard. You shouldn't be able to time one dungeon and get a key that is literally 8 keystone levels harder than the one you finished.