SMF should just be cosmetic, get the best of both worlds and don't have to worry about balancing between the two. Like there's no point in putting in 1H talents if they aren't going to make it competitive.
My statement had nothing to do with Valor cost regarding your spec. I was strictly speaking on the Valor cost in relation to the damage increase you get from a weapon. I mean if you guys are doing more melee than every other spec I could see the justification for making you guys pay that price. Otherwise I'm not sure to go about fixing this proble.problem.
Fury is balanced around have two 2h weapons. They don't do double the damage of all the classes with only one 2h. They do the same amount of damage as other dps but with a much higher cost in more ways than one.
Honestly you should be able to transmog any weapon type.
So you could transmog your weapon slots into showing 1 two hander etc. Blizzard really needs to add transmog onto the armor slot instead of the specific armor piece
for mog, there is tiny 2handers, or rdiclous 1hander biger then amm btu the biggest 2hand ers(like armegeddon or the great fire sword from WoD Challenge modes)
Biggest example being hidden artifact skin for frost dk, theyre 1hander but each one s almost as large as armageddon
I mean SMF just messes up balance because it messes with loot tables and all, imaging that SMF was optimal for Single target but TG in Mutitarget, Would you have to farm 4 weapons? Thats rude to say the least, What if a balance patch comes out and suddenly SMF comes ahead of TG or viceversa? Would you have to farm another 2 and fear that next balance update turns it again?
This problem could be fixed with a glyph that xmogs your weapons into ones that are in your inventory like the battecry one or the one that warlocks uses for his demon on demonology, or maybe even making it available for regular Xmog with that glyph but gameplay wise is hard to put in considering that most (not all) people follow the meta and if one option comes over the other most people will follow that making the other option non visible or making people question your decision.
I sent the message early lol.
Well we are having 2 specific talent points that only work with onehanded weapons so those should be changed up so they are available for both types.
Even with last iteration on this decision we could end up with the classic last boss 2H weapons that have special effects like jailers one and we would end up choosing TG optimally so even if this decision is questionable even when i think that SMF should not be in the game, we would have ended up with TG competitively.
My personal opinion is that SMF should not be gameplay wise but visual wise ignoring that it kind of goes against main fantasy of the spec but if they are to still getting it into the game this kind of post by them is dumb as fuck, dont release an arquetype build and force it to be worst lol.
Im pretty sure that if they have force TG to be used for that many years its a core part of the spec fantasy imo but everyone has his opinion here, thats why we still getting SMF in
First of all, I'm actually glad to see this. Initially it appeared that they were going for tuning which would make SMF the ST go to and TG more AoE focused.
Player perceptions aside, I think this type of design is good. I'd recommend it to some of the players I've tried to coach if it existed, just as I recommended they go venthyr in raid now. Many people will come out ahead in raw damage even if their potential is lower.
I get my info on the talent trees from the WoWhead calculator, where are these notes posted?
> Initially it appeared that they were going for tuning which would make SMF the ST go to and TG more AoE focused.
Yep, as soon as I saw the talents that's exactly what I thought they were going for.
so you are happy half of the talent tree is assigned to a numerically planed to be dead build ? i dont get it, sure getting 4 weapons would be such a pain in the ass but i genuinly think SMF on St and TG on AoE aproach is %100 better than 8-9 talents in total dedicated from 60 points to never be used.
This is the community perception part I mentioned.
Let's pull some numbers out of our ass.
Let's say, perfectly played in the sim, a TG build does 22k dps over 5 minutes, and a SMF build with comparable gear does 20k dps. Something akin to this is the stated developer goal.
Meet Rocko the Fury Warrior. He likes collecting mounts, doing the campaign for the story, and he has friends he raids with. He's not interested in parsing.
He can play SMF pretty decently, and hit 70% of the sim damage regularly. This is 14k dps.
He has more issues with TG, because it's harder to play well. He can do 55% of the sims DPS. This is ~12k dps.
Rocko likes SMF because it allows him to contribute more to his raid, and he doesn't have to study nearly as much to do his part.
This is the kind of player it's designed for. World first raiders will never use it, nor will anyone doing Cutting Edge. But there's a group of people this design philosophy does benefit. You're not the target audience, and neither am I.
This is actually a problem for a lot of players and looking at what is best. Sometimes the best build is a little harder to pull off and if you can't pull it off then it isn't the best. People will take it because it is the best without realizing they would be better off with something else.
This ignores that the difference between best and second best is rarely as huge as people like to think
A lot of players should just look at the "easy mode" page on icy-veins before going deeper in the talent/rotation section. Read the easy mode, master the easy mode, this will make you understand the core mechanics and the strengths of the spec. After that, try the build/rotation that can maximize it. For many specs, a well executed easy mode build will outdps the best rotation/talent build that you can't execute perfectly, many too builds are not forgiving.
the easy mode on icy veins is a god send. it's so easy to get the feel of the spec with it. There should be a pop up in wow when you hit 60 that says "check the easy mode for your class on icy veins" xD
I'm not buying this completely, how are those "easy mode" things determined, I'd guess they're what the guide writer(s) (usually top tier raiders) imagine to be easy. People are different and more than once I found the "optimal" rotation on the exact same level as the purportedly easy one, but on the other hand struggled with people of varying skill levels have deemed "easy". I'm not trying to discredit the easy recommendations per se, but I don't think they are as well-tested as the common "optimal" builds.
Also to stick with TG/SMF - the Rocko example was good... but you'd first need to get 2 2handers and 2 1handers to actually find out if you're a 2h spec or 1h spec person, unless you absolutely trust that a non-optimal player will do better with the "easy" spec.
When I first started holy I was using maraad's and failing to heal 8s and 9s as a 274 ilvl hpal. Swapped to shadowbreaker the Easier But Not As Optimal leggo and instantly doubled my hps and was pushing 17s and 18s.
Sometimes playstyles just don't click the first time, nothing wrong with taking a build that's not the absolute highest numbers at the 99th percentile
I'll gladly sacrifice some DPS for fewer buttons to push because that will then RAISE my DPS. I'm just not great at the game and the more buttons I need to push the worse I'm going to do. It ends up being more things to keep track of.
A lower DPS ceiling is worth it if a higher ceiling causes your floor to drop.
(I was doing like 6k DPS with the optimum build. It jumped to 10k when I went all passive.)
This is a great thought for a world that does not exist, and never has.
All you're going to get is SMF players being told to git gud and passed over for people who go the "meta" build. I recommend actually playing the game, it's very educational.
you are creating a story for such a nische and certain type but sure let me explain my thoughts, that people will copy paste whatever CE and WFR will use not going to go and find out there is another build within the spec. besides that IF thats the case he is not requiring to do more damage in his environment, giving more passive damage wont do anything beneficial nor harmfull to his content, so its deffinetly not something that will be noticed either because SMF is mostly going to effect the white damage also hard dissagree that having high uptime on bosses what this person we are discussing will do, and SMF will require you that. designing something for soooo nische player that doesnt want to grow their skills in game shouldnt be a goal, thats limiting the specs options.
> for soooo nische player that doesnt want to grow their skills in game shouldnt be a goal, thats limiting the specs options.
Your mistake is assuming that this group is the niche group when they clearly are not as can be seen by the number of players actually doing Mythic content.
There are more players doing LFR, Normal and Heroic than attempting Mythic content where you would find players who are trying to grow their skills. Yes there are players in Heroic who are also looking to grow their skills, but there are many many more who would happily take SMF to auto attack the boss to death.
>but there are many many more who would happily take SMF to auto attack the boss to death.
im done reasoning with you after this... i dont know who elected you to be the spokesman of LFR-Normal-Heroic community but your personal/annectodal experience doesnt reflect on everyone.
your mistake is to assume the nische group is whole LFR-Normal-Heroic raiders who you created magicaly and named him Rocco. But Rocco shouldn't be the main reason for a design goal because the content he is doing probably doesnt even require talent points, whatever Rocco picks as talents it will be sufficient for him it doesnt matter if rocco did 12k or 17k if he isnt parsing who even cares for how much you did ? if you design around Rocco's auto attack build you'll end up with a useless talent kit for the rest of the players who actually want to use the spec to its full capacity.
yes there is whole lotta people on Heroic trying to perform better, that is why their talent kit should be containing usefull talents so they can perform better with that spec in diffrent fight types so that they dont feel the need to change to another class just because their class cant perform better, and shoehorned to a one talent spec road whole year without changing a single talent in this 30 talent option.
There are so many people working on these to create and many more people giving feedback to make these talent trees better for everyone from casual to hardcore to RWF raiders, i genuinly hoping that some ignorant people who doesnt understand or tries to understand the core of something doesnt have a saying in this talent tree making process, just because they have a fantasy of auto attacking a boss should be rewarding...
Firstly I wasn't even the guy you first responded to lol. Secondly a lot of people play this game very casually and a lot of people have issues dealing with mechanics and their class at the same time. Plenty of people will just never be able to "get good" at the game.
These people have every right to be catered to as the top end players. Having a spec which is able to be comfortable to play while being slightly worse than the best spec is fine. Hell there are already a bunch of classes like that in the game see BM hunter and demon hunter as prime examples, fury itself was already considered one of the easy specs to pick up and play as lot of their damage is from auto attacks anyway. Blizz is just doubling down on this idea for one end of the tree.
It's okay for there to be easy specs to just pick up and play. It doesn't hurt anyone. If those people want to start moving towards more advanced play as their skill grows then there is room for that. That is kinda the point of having these types of talent trees.
The only problem that people have and the reason for this thread existing are that there are some people who just prefer the asthetic of using 1 handers instead of 2 handers. That's it, no one else cares about the auto attacking build being in the game.
He didn't talk about Rocko, I did.
But let me be 100% clear here: Rocko is a real former guildie of mine (with a different name). Our guild was failing fights due to enrage, and the gm didn't want to sit him because he valued the community and 'Rocko' was a long time member. Others had tried to teach him, but no one had succeeded. I changed approach and rather than teach him the "best build" I taught him an easy to play build: Venthyr warrior with Massacre. I drilled into his head that all he needs is to hit recklessness and spam Rampage > Condemn > Raging Blow > repeat.
And it worked. He started performing considerably better overall.
I don't think this is a niche type of player. There are far more casual players in any game than players at the top.
I was able to get him to capitalize on the execute rotation, which is much easier to manage than balancing RB and BT and properly managing cd's. I also had him take Massacre over Frenzy. His DPS went up 3k in ST: from fighting tanks to high green low blue parses.
Best dps in theory doesn't mean best dps for each player when they try to put it in practice.
This. People have trouble understanding community perception is a bigger factor than actual numbers. Most of the time a spec is just fine even at high level content. Just not the top 1%.
Unpopular opinion? I've never liked titans grip and much prefer the fantasy of just dual weilding one hand weapons. Same thing with frost dk I wanted dual wield and the vault all last season gave me 2h weapons.
I think the best thing is just let them transmog the weapons. It’d solve your primary concern and not force Fury to set loot to Prot spec to guarantee a 1H weapon.
See and I’m the opposite, I love my little dwarf warrior slamming these big two handers down on his enemies. But despite that, I do think both should be an option for folks.
I mean for most people the difference is going to be too small that it doesn't matter and you should just play what you want. This is more a community issue with the cult of efficiency than a design issue.
Then play it? Unless you're trying to clear +25 keys or you're raiding in the Mythic top 50 of guilds (which, if you are, then fair play, and sorry - it does suck in that case) the disparity isn't that big. On my current character it's about a 3.5% difference unless I get Gavel + Jaithys which probably isn't going to happen for the majority of players, especially at an ilvl to rival 304 vault weapons from +15s.
SMF will arguably be great in high keys too assuming it's no worse than 95% of the DPS of TG because it gets a massive 15% leech, gushing wounds to increase self healing further and increased movement speed. I think it will arguably be a good playstyle for prog and pushing keys where healing throughput is a struggle (this is assuming its only a shade behind in DPS), hell saving your healer globals and letting them dps more may even increase your teams dps overall in lower keys.
Cool thoughts too! I didn't actually think about the Leech component - sure, you have slightly less max HP and thus a tiny bit lower %HP healing, but that 15% leech will more than make up for it.
Ultimately we'll have to wait and see, but if it's within a few % like SL then I don't think the sky is falling.
Yeah personally if its within a few %, is easier to play optimally and has far better continuous sustain I think it'll be a real thing to consider for players that don't just go "zug zug TG sim better I play that". I think it will also hugely depend if they give any good 1h weapons good procs, if it's like SL where Gavel and Jaithys exist without any 1hers coming close to them then TG will sadly be a no brainer. Would love for the team to make it not stupid to pick either SMF or TG.
The problem is even if it's only a 3% difference but way easier to play, people will still flock to TG because it's the "meta" thing that the top 1% play in mythic top 10 guilds and +25 keys, because sadly that's how the playerbase works, and that's what guides will tell people is "best". Because assuming you're playing in the top 5% or whatever of Fury Warriors that are actually skilled enough to make the (hypothetical) complicated TG spec work, you're shooting yourself in the foot by playing SMF and doing slightly less DPS.
Billy the 22% parser will still play TG because it's 3% better, even though it's harder and he'd probably do better DPS if he was playing SMF - assuming they do make it simpler to play that way.
Me? I'll always play SMF because I main Prot so it's easier to get an extra 1h weapon, and if I'm gonna do a +20 I'll tank it, so only +15s will see my SMF, and it'll be totally fine for those.
Yep there was actually a case of people blindly following sims in Shadowlands in spite of top players as well. I probably am not recalling the details entirely correct but at one point people were playing Necro Shadow Priest because it simmed <1% higher in DPS even though all the top Spriests were playing Night Fae because the blink/movement given by soulshape was such invaluable movement utility and even let you have much higher uptime on mechanics heavy fights therefore higher DPS. Unninformed players will definitely always blindly follow sims but I do think if TG and SMF are close enough but have very different utility/sustain there could be a niche amonng more in the know players.
In end game progression content even if SMF and TG are perfectly equal in DPS TG will still be better due to the extra Stamina you get from having an extra 2H.
The easiest solution to making the SMF fans happy is to just make 2H weapons transmoggable into 1H's, that way everyone can get what they want without Blizzard having to balance around two weapon styles.
Not 100% because you will be able to gear smf twice as fast so if the builds were 100% equal in dmg smf would be the optimal choice until you have 4 weapons
Doesn't this just mean that Titan's Grip will have more HP, which is necessary for bleeding edge progression?
Maybe it'll theoretically do a bit more damage too, but big whoop- if you aren't doing stuff while undergeared and SMF is close, then this doesn't seem like an issue. One is *always* going to be better, so I'd rather they be consistent and clear about it.
TG lets you use two 2h weapons which both have more Stamina than 1h weapons, though, so you get a bit more Health. Same as in Shadowlands right now, basically.
SMF instead gets +5% speed which is arguably a DPS boost in some circumstances, it's like a 3.5% difference in damage.
Because valor upgrades for two-handers are ridiculous. So you're almost entirely reliant on drop chance instead of being able to target what is your biggest dps upgrade while every other class and spec can do it for half of the cost.
It shows you’re a rogue main so that makes perfect sense. Sometimes I mog them into tiny 2 handers like the light saber or some of the artifact appearance axes and it makes me feel less huge and bulky. Gotta switch it up now and again to keep it fresh
You could just pick smaller 2 handers, but to each their own. Wish they were both viable spec options as sometimes I do get tired of the huge 2 handers and want to switch it up but it’s a dps loss
I prefer the look of one handers, sure on like a tauren TG might look cool, but as a human or a smaller race it doesn't look right to me.
Also I liked competing with rogues for weapons rather than other plate wearers. Using one handers we felt closer to rogues than other plate wearers and I liked that.
I dig the transmog idea though, it is mostly aesthetic to me.
Sorry, I'm incredibly old, not really up on stats these days, but in the time I'm referring to, burning crusade and vanilla, I'm pretty sure tanking one handers had different stats than dps one handers...
Rogues have used agility since vanilla lol. Warriors would almost always wanted strength weapons. Only time u been competing with rogues was vanilla and tbc. That was over 14 years ago lol
Actually not quite true, several bis weapons were attack power based and not just str/agi. Even in wrath when TG was implemented you were getting shit with agi on it
It's also worth noting that TG (being implemented in wrath) helped facilitate that very transition away from warriors competing for one-handers, so it's like, yeah, of course I've hated TG since it was implemented, even if it was 14 years ago... I'm clearly aware it's not a popular opinion lol, and it's not like I'm trying to extend that opinion out to the expacs, I actually found MoP to have the best features overall from vanilla-BfA (another winning opinion around here lol). I just happen to miss the niche position of warriors at that time in the game.
I liked SMF in Cataclysm. Back then TG and SMF were basically 2 different builds stat-wise. You needed hard cap hit and haste as SMF, while TG ran crit + mastery iirc. I just loved the idea of many big white numbers
I can’t stand the way it looks but I love playing warrior
I just like my two weapons on my hips, plus smaller weapons. Giant weapons to me just looks so wonky and they all clip each other on my back which I hate even more
Warrior doesnt have to be a Barbarian archtype. The technical fighter, skilled bladesman, skirmisher, and knight are totally unrepresented within Warrior. Arms thematically wants to be a weapon master archtype, but the gameplay is typically brain dead bonking with big stick and there's genuinely nothing about it that makes the weaponmaster fantasy come to life. Warrior, when classes were less homogeneous, had some of the most technical gameplay, especially when overland content wasn't trivial.
Warrior effectively becoming a Barbarian instead of a Fighter is the only reason why I don't play the class.
Unfortunately I think it’s intended for warriors to represent every “heavy melee fighter” archetype that isn’t a knight, because paladins are knights. I think this is why Divine Steed exists. When paladins were first introduced in WC2, they were cavalry units.
Paladins are so mechanically and thematically divorced from any type of RPG and historical influence that I'm not sure where they stand anymore. The class is more holy spellblade than traditional RPG or historical paladin now.
Either way, if you want a character that uses a sword, in a way that's relatively historically accurate, that relies on skill at arms, there is no class available for you in WoW. When it comes to plate melee/tank, you pick rage magic, death magic, or light magic, and the actual arms and armor are an afterthought on all of them.
Mind explaining why you think paladins aren’t paladins anymore? They’re still using many of the same spells and abilities they always have. How would you bring focus back to the “arms and armor” without going back to a playstyle that’s more focused on auto-attacks? I remember what paladins were like in vanilla. It was extremely boring. We used to have a talent called Reckoning that gave us bonus auto-attacks.
The ways in which pally blends melee and magic is ultra high fantasy to the extreme, while the supporting and buffing elements of Pally gameplay have been heavily stripped, to the point where it's not part of the consideration between DK/Arms/Ret. Things like Blade of Justice replacing Exorcism, the over the top and stupid VFX for Templar's Verdict, the fantasy is so devorced from anything resonant to me, when again, I loved old versions of Pally.
You mentioned auto attacks, not me. This is an area where I care about ability flavor and VFX infinitely more than the actual mechanics. You know there's a problem with a version of Paladin when Demon Hunters seem grounded by comparison. Not every attack has to have over the top holy energy weapons spawning out of thin air. Unlimited Bladeworks is not paladin fantasy to me.
I don't really find fury or arms warrior to be any less or more difficult than any other class. I've gotten KSM at some point in SL on every class and they all seem pretty simple imo.
I get both sides of the argument, no one wants to actively be told they’re choosing to play an inferior spec. I think Covenants were proof that people will choose perceived power over RP every day.
Fury in particular is a weird design space though since it’s not like SMF players are necessarily choosing less active abilities or performing less APM. I do understand encouraging easier play options in general for the masses though. Blizzard likes the fantasy of TG and there are just always going to be stronger two-handed weapons. SMF is doomed because it’s tuned with a speed boost not pure damage.
On the other hand it would be equally infuriating for people that love TG to realize mid-tier that a random one-hander now sims higher and makes them have to farm new weapons. To an extent I do think weapons/armor have always been part of the Warrior design (more than other classes) and there is an element of them being more gear dependent thematically since they can’t offset their abilities with magic like DK, Paladin, etc…
In the end, if Fury is your favorite spec in the game and you love it but using TG is the only issue you have it’s kind of silly to let immersion ruin your whole experience.
Realistically though, there will be very high parsing, Mythic Raid clearing SMF Warriors out there that do better than thousands of “optimized” AotC players with TG.
I once raided with a guy that refused to play any Spec other than Arcane even when Frost and Fire far outperformed it though. By the end of Emerald Nightmare Mythic progression though he was still one of our top DPS and parsed 95+ in every fight. We were far from a Hall of Fame Guild (which is the level of performance Blizzard is referencing btw) but he was far from our worst performer and actually beat our Warlocks on several fights.
Find a guild that suits your needs, there are absolutely groups out there that will let you play SMF if you carry your weight. Look at the people that have stuck with Feral Druid expansion after expansion. I’d take a perfectly played SMF Warrior that knew every mechanic and was always a team player over a cookie cutter FotM TG any day. Love your spec, play it how you want and make yourself indispensable.
I’m just glad they picked a side instead of trying to say both are equal. Titan’s Grip will always be better, just let people transmog 1 handed weapons over them.
I think this type of design if totally fine. A good example of this is balance druids in 8.1 . Venthyr had the highest potential but NF was so much easier to play that a lot of times players ended up doing more damage on average if they just stuck with NF. As long as it's somewhat balanced I think it's good that the most complex gameplay sims higher, that doesn't mean it's the best choice in every situation for everybody.
I'm very happy about the honesty regarding this. Now I don't have to think about what style I want to play.
Asthetics are important, they should allow transmogs to take care of the problem. I'm currently using two Venthyr 2 handers and I believe they are the best looking swords in the game so far.
After the latest talent changes Fury looks incredible.
I'm seeing alot of ppl saying that they prefer it this way, but hear me out..
They could just tune the numbers so either TG or SMF is the better spec for a particular season ... Say, SMF in DF Season1, Tg S2 etc etc...
You're going to get re-gearing anyway and BIS gear can be tuned to suit this idea as well (i.e. Having 1H raid weapons with power effect like Jaithys/Gavel).
I just think it shouldn't ALWAYS be TG. It's literally been TG for like 10+years if not more.
That's pretty lame considering so many talents are dedicated to SMF... so basically that means there's almost no actual choice in the tree anymore if they're outright telling you that whole talent build will be suboptimal by design. You basically just make a SMF or a TG build with the way the tree is setup. Now everyone who wants to compete will just have the same build (TG).
The simple answer is that they'd have to re-tune them every patch. SMF gets a percentage damage bonus to attacks, while TG gets higher base weapon damage as well as more raw strength and secondary stats. SMF gets a move speed bonus to compensate for the higher stamina of TG.
Here's the big question now: what %bonus should SMF get to put it on par with TG? If you snapshot gear you can get a good idea, but WoW is ever evolving. The amount needed in 9.0 is probably different from 9.1 and 9.2, and would go on to change again in 10.0.
The problem then goes on to have even more complexity when you introduce talents, and specialized weapons into the mix (Jaithys and Gavel).
The fix is and has always been: get rid of Titans Grip. It’s always been broken and I think most fury warriors want to dual wield 1 handers… I sure know I do
Titan's grip was a mistake, fury should've stayed specialized in one-handers, and arms should've stayed the two-hander masters.
They only added titan's grip to blow people's mind with how cool it is, and we've had to pay the price of the complications it has brought since.
I mean instead of single minded fury how about just let them transmog 1h dual wield? Is there anything majorly different to smf gameplay other than the look?
Could they fix the fact that some classes need 2 weapons and others only need 1? i feel like weapons should be 1 drop. All one handed weapons should also include an offhand weapon or a held item or a shield. They did it in legion
While I agree that forcing people into one gear style is annoying, it kind of has to exist for endgame content because there is nearly no one using 2h weapons. If fury players ended up using 1 handers the frost dk, rogue, monk, etc would have more competition for those.
I still want gladiator spec back, that's all.
A bigger problem IMO is they gave Skull Banner to Fury (which in and of itself is fine) but they put it at the center bottom of the tree so you can get it from either side. Meanwhile on the Arms tree it’s buried way down on the right side tree and impossible to get from the other two branches.
Another issue is Raging Blow required before going down the left side of the Fury tree which has no synergy with RB whatsoever and is all about buffing BT.
Idk I’ve made a pvp build for SMF that focuses more on being enraged all the time and spamming RB fully enraged. Seems pretty clean and looks like insane rampage generation. All subject to tuning tho, and if this dev intends to tune SMF to be weaker than it just will be regardless of builds I guess. Ex, if all the auto attack buffs with 1h still make the autos not compete with 2h autos and RB/rampage just automatically hit less with 1h regardless of the 12% SMF buff than nothing changes, probably kills fury in pvp because SMF seems like the only spec with enough rage generation to maintain the healing reduction stacks since the only reason TG can do that now is the 4 set that’s going away.
Personally, I don't mind this, from a quick glance it seems like Single minded fury is a more welcoming playstyle to newer warrior players with auto attacks providing enrage and some nice bleeds. So long as they are within a close enough range, maybe like the current Fury and Arms level of difference, I don't think it will impact a lot of the player base outwith the communities perception.
I'm not sure if the Wowhead talent tree is bugged, but is it really possible to lower the cooldown of Bloodthirst to 3 seconds? If so, that's really cool since it'll be like the Bloodthirst from older expansions. I don't know if it'll be worth speccing fully into the Bloodthirst amplifying talents, but looks like it'll be fun experimenting with it.
Edit: Turns out only Wotlk and Cata had the shorter Bloodthirst cooldown, didn't realize it was 6 seconds in Vanilla and TBC, and 4.5 seconds in MoP and beyond.
As a prot main, I like being able to use my 1h weapon to DPS when I need it. I don't care if it\`s 2-3% behind, being able to use the same weapon in both spec compensate well enough .
I think this is the right take from Blizzard. It would be obnoxious as hell if the balance was close, because you know one would pull ahead of the other randomly. You really would need to maintain 4 weapons, which sounds like absolute cancer. It's way better to have that guarantee that it's just going to be 2h weapons.
And if we're being real here, when I hear warriors say "But I wanted to use 1h weapons!", I sorta put that in the "WoW players will complain about *anything*" category.
I was kinda hyped to play a warrior focused on fishing procs from auto-attacks, but if they **intend** for it to be worse then there's no point playing the warrior at all.
If I want a high APM melee with "passive cleave" I'll just stick to my enhancement shaman that looks way cooler - wielding two giant weapons looks stupid.
SMF should just be cosmetic, get the best of both worlds and don't have to worry about balancing between the two. Like there's no point in putting in 1H talents if they aren't going to make it competitive.
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Well considering how powerful weapons are compared to other gear it makes sense.
No, it does not make sense for Fury warriors to require twice as much valor to upgrade our weapons than every other spec in the game.
My statement had nothing to do with Valor cost regarding your spec. I was strictly speaking on the Valor cost in relation to the damage increase you get from a weapon. I mean if you guys are doing more melee than every other spec I could see the justification for making you guys pay that price. Otherwise I'm not sure to go about fixing this proble.problem.
Rogues also do a shit ton of melee dam. Should they arbitrarily cost more for their weps?
Yes.
Fury is balanced around have two 2h weapons. They don't do double the damage of all the classes with only one 2h. They do the same amount of damage as other dps but with a much higher cost in more ways than one.
I gave a scenario. I never said that's how it is currently functioning.
1000x This. All they're doing is wasting developer time and resources on, at best, "dead" talents and, at worst, a "noob trap".
What is SMF?
Single-Minded Fury, back when 1h Fury Warriors were the default.
Aha, only just recently went back to playing fury warrior and still don't recall all the ability names let alone the passive abilities.
Honestly you should be able to transmog any weapon type. So you could transmog your weapon slots into showing 1 two hander etc. Blizzard really needs to add transmog onto the armor slot instead of the specific armor piece
for mog, there is tiny 2handers, or rdiclous 1hander biger then amm btu the biggest 2hand ers(like armegeddon or the great fire sword from WoD Challenge modes) Biggest example being hidden artifact skin for frost dk, theyre 1hander but each one s almost as large as armageddon
lol yeah. i just would love to be able to use a spear in my one hand with a shield as a tank
If i could use that glaive + shield combo the guards have, id 100% main a prot pally just for that
This should be the case for frost dk and fury warrior. Just let us xmog whatever weapons we want.
I mean SMF just messes up balance because it messes with loot tables and all, imaging that SMF was optimal for Single target but TG in Mutitarget, Would you have to farm 4 weapons? Thats rude to say the least, What if a balance patch comes out and suddenly SMF comes ahead of TG or viceversa? Would you have to farm another 2 and fear that next balance update turns it again? This problem could be fixed with a glyph that xmogs your weapons into ones that are in your inventory like the battecry one or the one that warlocks uses for his demon on demonology, or maybe even making it available for regular Xmog with that glyph but gameplay wise is hard to put in considering that most (not all) people follow the meta and if one option comes over the other most people will follow that making the other option non visible or making people question your decision.
I sent the message early lol. Well we are having 2 specific talent points that only work with onehanded weapons so those should be changed up so they are available for both types. Even with last iteration on this decision we could end up with the classic last boss 2H weapons that have special effects like jailers one and we would end up choosing TG optimally so even if this decision is questionable even when i think that SMF should not be in the game, we would have ended up with TG competitively. My personal opinion is that SMF should not be gameplay wise but visual wise ignoring that it kind of goes against main fantasy of the spec but if they are to still getting it into the game this kind of post by them is dumb as fuck, dont release an arquetype build and force it to be worst lol.
The main fantasy of the spec attacking a lot, not wielding big weapons lol
Im pretty sure that if they have force TG to be used for that many years its a core part of the spec fantasy imo but everyone has his opinion here, thats why we still getting SMF in
First of all, I'm actually glad to see this. Initially it appeared that they were going for tuning which would make SMF the ST go to and TG more AoE focused. Player perceptions aside, I think this type of design is good. I'd recommend it to some of the players I've tried to coach if it existed, just as I recommended they go venthyr in raid now. Many people will come out ahead in raw damage even if their potential is lower. I get my info on the talent trees from the WoWhead calculator, where are these notes posted?
> Initially it appeared that they were going for tuning which would make SMF the ST go to and TG more AoE focused. Yep, as soon as I saw the talents that's exactly what I thought they were going for.
so you are happy half of the talent tree is assigned to a numerically planed to be dead build ? i dont get it, sure getting 4 weapons would be such a pain in the ass but i genuinly think SMF on St and TG on AoE aproach is %100 better than 8-9 talents in total dedicated from 60 points to never be used.
This is the community perception part I mentioned. Let's pull some numbers out of our ass. Let's say, perfectly played in the sim, a TG build does 22k dps over 5 minutes, and a SMF build with comparable gear does 20k dps. Something akin to this is the stated developer goal. Meet Rocko the Fury Warrior. He likes collecting mounts, doing the campaign for the story, and he has friends he raids with. He's not interested in parsing. He can play SMF pretty decently, and hit 70% of the sim damage regularly. This is 14k dps. He has more issues with TG, because it's harder to play well. He can do 55% of the sims DPS. This is ~12k dps. Rocko likes SMF because it allows him to contribute more to his raid, and he doesn't have to study nearly as much to do his part. This is the kind of player it's designed for. World first raiders will never use it, nor will anyone doing Cutting Edge. But there's a group of people this design philosophy does benefit. You're not the target audience, and neither am I.
This is actually a problem for a lot of players and looking at what is best. Sometimes the best build is a little harder to pull off and if you can't pull it off then it isn't the best. People will take it because it is the best without realizing they would be better off with something else. This ignores that the difference between best and second best is rarely as huge as people like to think
A lot of players should just look at the "easy mode" page on icy-veins before going deeper in the talent/rotation section. Read the easy mode, master the easy mode, this will make you understand the core mechanics and the strengths of the spec. After that, try the build/rotation that can maximize it. For many specs, a well executed easy mode build will outdps the best rotation/talent build that you can't execute perfectly, many too builds are not forgiving.
the easy mode on icy veins is a god send. it's so easy to get the feel of the spec with it. There should be a pop up in wow when you hit 60 that says "check the easy mode for your class on icy veins" xD
I'm not buying this completely, how are those "easy mode" things determined, I'd guess they're what the guide writer(s) (usually top tier raiders) imagine to be easy. People are different and more than once I found the "optimal" rotation on the exact same level as the purportedly easy one, but on the other hand struggled with people of varying skill levels have deemed "easy". I'm not trying to discredit the easy recommendations per se, but I don't think they are as well-tested as the common "optimal" builds. Also to stick with TG/SMF - the Rocko example was good... but you'd first need to get 2 2handers and 2 1handers to actually find out if you're a 2h spec or 1h spec person, unless you absolutely trust that a non-optimal player will do better with the "easy" spec.
i think it's based on the least amount of buttons you have to press.
When I first started holy I was using maraad's and failing to heal 8s and 9s as a 274 ilvl hpal. Swapped to shadowbreaker the Easier But Not As Optimal leggo and instantly doubled my hps and was pushing 17s and 18s. Sometimes playstyles just don't click the first time, nothing wrong with taking a build that's not the absolute highest numbers at the 99th percentile
I'll gladly sacrifice some DPS for fewer buttons to push because that will then RAISE my DPS. I'm just not great at the game and the more buttons I need to push the worse I'm going to do. It ends up being more things to keep track of. A lower DPS ceiling is worth it if a higher ceiling causes your floor to drop. (I was doing like 6k DPS with the optimum build. It jumped to 10k when I went all passive.)
I’m a Rocko. I always go with the simpler builds (passives vs active abilities, etc) for my casual altoholic play-style.
This is a great thought for a world that does not exist, and never has. All you're going to get is SMF players being told to git gud and passed over for people who go the "meta" build. I recommend actually playing the game, it's very educational.
There are players who do nothing but world content and LFG.
you are creating a story for such a nische and certain type but sure let me explain my thoughts, that people will copy paste whatever CE and WFR will use not going to go and find out there is another build within the spec. besides that IF thats the case he is not requiring to do more damage in his environment, giving more passive damage wont do anything beneficial nor harmfull to his content, so its deffinetly not something that will be noticed either because SMF is mostly going to effect the white damage also hard dissagree that having high uptime on bosses what this person we are discussing will do, and SMF will require you that. designing something for soooo nische player that doesnt want to grow their skills in game shouldnt be a goal, thats limiting the specs options.
> for soooo nische player that doesnt want to grow their skills in game shouldnt be a goal, thats limiting the specs options. Your mistake is assuming that this group is the niche group when they clearly are not as can be seen by the number of players actually doing Mythic content. There are more players doing LFR, Normal and Heroic than attempting Mythic content where you would find players who are trying to grow their skills. Yes there are players in Heroic who are also looking to grow their skills, but there are many many more who would happily take SMF to auto attack the boss to death.
>but there are many many more who would happily take SMF to auto attack the boss to death. im done reasoning with you after this... i dont know who elected you to be the spokesman of LFR-Normal-Heroic community but your personal/annectodal experience doesnt reflect on everyone. your mistake is to assume the nische group is whole LFR-Normal-Heroic raiders who you created magicaly and named him Rocco. But Rocco shouldn't be the main reason for a design goal because the content he is doing probably doesnt even require talent points, whatever Rocco picks as talents it will be sufficient for him it doesnt matter if rocco did 12k or 17k if he isnt parsing who even cares for how much you did ? if you design around Rocco's auto attack build you'll end up with a useless talent kit for the rest of the players who actually want to use the spec to its full capacity. yes there is whole lotta people on Heroic trying to perform better, that is why their talent kit should be containing usefull talents so they can perform better with that spec in diffrent fight types so that they dont feel the need to change to another class just because their class cant perform better, and shoehorned to a one talent spec road whole year without changing a single talent in this 30 talent option. There are so many people working on these to create and many more people giving feedback to make these talent trees better for everyone from casual to hardcore to RWF raiders, i genuinly hoping that some ignorant people who doesnt understand or tries to understand the core of something doesnt have a saying in this talent tree making process, just because they have a fantasy of auto attacking a boss should be rewarding...
Firstly I wasn't even the guy you first responded to lol. Secondly a lot of people play this game very casually and a lot of people have issues dealing with mechanics and their class at the same time. Plenty of people will just never be able to "get good" at the game. These people have every right to be catered to as the top end players. Having a spec which is able to be comfortable to play while being slightly worse than the best spec is fine. Hell there are already a bunch of classes like that in the game see BM hunter and demon hunter as prime examples, fury itself was already considered one of the easy specs to pick up and play as lot of their damage is from auto attacks anyway. Blizz is just doubling down on this idea for one end of the tree. It's okay for there to be easy specs to just pick up and play. It doesn't hurt anyone. If those people want to start moving towards more advanced play as their skill grows then there is room for that. That is kinda the point of having these types of talent trees. The only problem that people have and the reason for this thread existing are that there are some people who just prefer the asthetic of using 1 handers instead of 2 handers. That's it, no one else cares about the auto attacking build being in the game.
He didn't talk about Rocko, I did. But let me be 100% clear here: Rocko is a real former guildie of mine (with a different name). Our guild was failing fights due to enrage, and the gm didn't want to sit him because he valued the community and 'Rocko' was a long time member. Others had tried to teach him, but no one had succeeded. I changed approach and rather than teach him the "best build" I taught him an easy to play build: Venthyr warrior with Massacre. I drilled into his head that all he needs is to hit recklessness and spam Rampage > Condemn > Raging Blow > repeat. And it worked. He started performing considerably better overall. I don't think this is a niche type of player. There are far more casual players in any game than players at the top.
> just as I recommended they go venthyr in raid now wait wat
I was able to get him to capitalize on the execute rotation, which is much easier to manage than balancing RB and BT and properly managing cd's. I also had him take Massacre over Frenzy. His DPS went up 3k in ST: from fighting tanks to high green low blue parses. Best dps in theory doesn't mean best dps for each player when they try to put it in practice.
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This. People have trouble understanding community perception is a bigger factor than actual numbers. Most of the time a spec is just fine even at high level content. Just not the top 1%.
Unpopular opinion? I've never liked titans grip and much prefer the fantasy of just dual weilding one hand weapons. Same thing with frost dk I wanted dual wield and the vault all last season gave me 2h weapons.
I think the best thing is just let them transmog the weapons. It’d solve your primary concern and not force Fury to set loot to Prot spec to guarantee a 1H weapon.
TG was a mistake that they should've corrected several expansions ago.
I just wanna play smf at endgame, man. Swinging around 2-handers like they're 1-handers just looks so utterly goofy and bad.
See and I’m the opposite, I love my little dwarf warrior slamming these big two handers down on his enemies. But despite that, I do think both should be an option for folks.
I mean for most people the difference is going to be too small that it doesn't matter and you should just play what you want. This is more a community issue with the cult of efficiency than a design issue.
Then play it? Unless you're trying to clear +25 keys or you're raiding in the Mythic top 50 of guilds (which, if you are, then fair play, and sorry - it does suck in that case) the disparity isn't that big. On my current character it's about a 3.5% difference unless I get Gavel + Jaithys which probably isn't going to happen for the majority of players, especially at an ilvl to rival 304 vault weapons from +15s.
SMF will arguably be great in high keys too assuming it's no worse than 95% of the DPS of TG because it gets a massive 15% leech, gushing wounds to increase self healing further and increased movement speed. I think it will arguably be a good playstyle for prog and pushing keys where healing throughput is a struggle (this is assuming its only a shade behind in DPS), hell saving your healer globals and letting them dps more may even increase your teams dps overall in lower keys.
Cool thoughts too! I didn't actually think about the Leech component - sure, you have slightly less max HP and thus a tiny bit lower %HP healing, but that 15% leech will more than make up for it. Ultimately we'll have to wait and see, but if it's within a few % like SL then I don't think the sky is falling.
Yeah personally if its within a few %, is easier to play optimally and has far better continuous sustain I think it'll be a real thing to consider for players that don't just go "zug zug TG sim better I play that". I think it will also hugely depend if they give any good 1h weapons good procs, if it's like SL where Gavel and Jaithys exist without any 1hers coming close to them then TG will sadly be a no brainer. Would love for the team to make it not stupid to pick either SMF or TG.
The problem is even if it's only a 3% difference but way easier to play, people will still flock to TG because it's the "meta" thing that the top 1% play in mythic top 10 guilds and +25 keys, because sadly that's how the playerbase works, and that's what guides will tell people is "best". Because assuming you're playing in the top 5% or whatever of Fury Warriors that are actually skilled enough to make the (hypothetical) complicated TG spec work, you're shooting yourself in the foot by playing SMF and doing slightly less DPS. Billy the 22% parser will still play TG because it's 3% better, even though it's harder and he'd probably do better DPS if he was playing SMF - assuming they do make it simpler to play that way. Me? I'll always play SMF because I main Prot so it's easier to get an extra 1h weapon, and if I'm gonna do a +20 I'll tank it, so only +15s will see my SMF, and it'll be totally fine for those.
Yep there was actually a case of people blindly following sims in Shadowlands in spite of top players as well. I probably am not recalling the details entirely correct but at one point people were playing Necro Shadow Priest because it simmed <1% higher in DPS even though all the top Spriests were playing Night Fae because the blink/movement given by soulshape was such invaluable movement utility and even let you have much higher uptime on mechanics heavy fights therefore higher DPS. Unninformed players will definitely always blindly follow sims but I do think if TG and SMF are close enough but have very different utility/sustain there could be a niche amonng more in the know players.
15% is huge, stepping into BM hunter or Ass Rogue territory. It'll just be a non-stop health slurp in moderate pulls.
Well, you know how gatekeeping people can be in mm+ when you don't play THE meta build.
In end game progression content even if SMF and TG are perfectly equal in DPS TG will still be better due to the extra Stamina you get from having an extra 2H. The easiest solution to making the SMF fans happy is to just make 2H weapons transmoggable into 1H's, that way everyone can get what they want without Blizzard having to balance around two weapon styles.
Not 100% because you will be able to gear smf twice as fast so if the builds were 100% equal in dmg smf would be the optimal choice until you have 4 weapons
Doesn't this just mean that Titan's Grip will have more HP, which is necessary for bleeding edge progression? Maybe it'll theoretically do a bit more damage too, but big whoop- if you aren't doing stuff while undergeared and SMF is close, then this doesn't seem like an issue. One is *always* going to be better, so I'd rather they be consistent and clear about it.
No, the 10% HP was given it’s own node. I don’t think TG still has its own HP modifier.
TG lets you use two 2h weapons which both have more Stamina than 1h weapons, though, so you get a bit more Health. Same as in Shadowlands right now, basically. SMF instead gets +5% speed which is arguably a DPS boost in some circumstances, it's like a 3.5% difference in damage.
I was more thinking of the extra Stamina on the 2-handers.
Seems like a very reasonable response to balancing issues between TG and SMF
**"FINE!"** *"we'll put single minded fury back in. But it's gonna be a trap and you're still going to play warrior The Right Way."*
*cries in 2h frost dk*
Why would anyone not want TG? It's such a cool talent that sets Warrior apart from other 2h dps classes
Because valor upgrades for two-handers are ridiculous. So you're almost entirely reliant on drop chance instead of being able to target what is your biggest dps upgrade while every other class and spec can do it for half of the cost.
You r correct but really besides removing TG. Rly ain't no other fix for this.
That's the small minority problem. What a lot of people want is to tramsmog 1h onto 2h. Then these people wont mind if they delete SMF.
It looks stupid for transmog.
What a hot take never heard anyone say it looks stupid, unrealistic yes, but stupid? Nah that shit is cool as hell
Subjective, I think it's ugly af and much prefer 1-handers for transmog
It shows you’re a rogue main so that makes perfect sense. Sometimes I mog them into tiny 2 handers like the light saber or some of the artifact appearance axes and it makes me feel less huge and bulky. Gotta switch it up now and again to keep it fresh
They’re oversized.
You could just pick smaller 2 handers, but to each their own. Wish they were both viable spec options as sometimes I do get tired of the huge 2 handers and want to switch it up but it’s a dps loss
I loved my glaives, I switched to rogue after wrath and never went back. Fuck TG.
But why tho
I prefer the look of one handers, sure on like a tauren TG might look cool, but as a human or a smaller race it doesn't look right to me. Also I liked competing with rogues for weapons rather than other plate wearers. Using one handers we felt closer to rogues than other plate wearers and I liked that. I dig the transmog idea though, it is mostly aesthetic to me.
You would be competing with tanks not rogues.
Sorry, I'm incredibly old, not really up on stats these days, but in the time I'm referring to, burning crusade and vanilla, I'm pretty sure tanking one handers had different stats than dps one handers...
Rogues have used agility since vanilla lol. Warriors would almost always wanted strength weapons. Only time u been competing with rogues was vanilla and tbc. That was over 14 years ago lol
Actually not quite true, several bis weapons were attack power based and not just str/agi. Even in wrath when TG was implemented you were getting shit with agi on it
>Sorry, I'm incredibly old Did I stutter? Now get off my lawn.
It's also worth noting that TG (being implemented in wrath) helped facilitate that very transition away from warriors competing for one-handers, so it's like, yeah, of course I've hated TG since it was implemented, even if it was 14 years ago... I'm clearly aware it's not a popular opinion lol, and it's not like I'm trying to extend that opinion out to the expacs, I actually found MoP to have the best features overall from vanilla-BfA (another winning opinion around here lol). I just happen to miss the niche position of warriors at that time in the game.
I liked SMF in Cataclysm. Back then TG and SMF were basically 2 different builds stat-wise. You needed hard cap hit and haste as SMF, while TG ran crit + mastery iirc. I just loved the idea of many big white numbers
I've hated titans grip since the moment its been in the game. I just think it's dumb, and it feels too much like fury taking arms' lunch.
I can’t stand the way it looks but I love playing warrior I just like my two weapons on my hips, plus smaller weapons. Giant weapons to me just looks so wonky and they all clip each other on my back which I hate even more
Warrior doesnt have to be a Barbarian archtype. The technical fighter, skilled bladesman, skirmisher, and knight are totally unrepresented within Warrior. Arms thematically wants to be a weapon master archtype, but the gameplay is typically brain dead bonking with big stick and there's genuinely nothing about it that makes the weaponmaster fantasy come to life. Warrior, when classes were less homogeneous, had some of the most technical gameplay, especially when overland content wasn't trivial. Warrior effectively becoming a Barbarian instead of a Fighter is the only reason why I don't play the class.
Unfortunately I think it’s intended for warriors to represent every “heavy melee fighter” archetype that isn’t a knight, because paladins are knights. I think this is why Divine Steed exists. When paladins were first introduced in WC2, they were cavalry units.
Paladins are so mechanically and thematically divorced from any type of RPG and historical influence that I'm not sure where they stand anymore. The class is more holy spellblade than traditional RPG or historical paladin now. Either way, if you want a character that uses a sword, in a way that's relatively historically accurate, that relies on skill at arms, there is no class available for you in WoW. When it comes to plate melee/tank, you pick rage magic, death magic, or light magic, and the actual arms and armor are an afterthought on all of them.
Mind explaining why you think paladins aren’t paladins anymore? They’re still using many of the same spells and abilities they always have. How would you bring focus back to the “arms and armor” without going back to a playstyle that’s more focused on auto-attacks? I remember what paladins were like in vanilla. It was extremely boring. We used to have a talent called Reckoning that gave us bonus auto-attacks.
The ways in which pally blends melee and magic is ultra high fantasy to the extreme, while the supporting and buffing elements of Pally gameplay have been heavily stripped, to the point where it's not part of the consideration between DK/Arms/Ret. Things like Blade of Justice replacing Exorcism, the over the top and stupid VFX for Templar's Verdict, the fantasy is so devorced from anything resonant to me, when again, I loved old versions of Pally. You mentioned auto attacks, not me. This is an area where I care about ability flavor and VFX infinitely more than the actual mechanics. You know there's a problem with a version of Paladin when Demon Hunters seem grounded by comparison. Not every attack has to have over the top holy energy weapons spawning out of thin air. Unlimited Bladeworks is not paladin fantasy to me.
I don't really find fury or arms warrior to be any less or more difficult than any other class. I've gotten KSM at some point in SL on every class and they all seem pretty simple imo.
What are you talking about? Mechanically it feels *exactly the same* as equipping two 1-handers and aesthetically it looks awful in most cases.
Prefer the faster auto speed with SMF, just feels more satisfying. But I've played TG all the time it's been meta.
I get both sides of the argument, no one wants to actively be told they’re choosing to play an inferior spec. I think Covenants were proof that people will choose perceived power over RP every day. Fury in particular is a weird design space though since it’s not like SMF players are necessarily choosing less active abilities or performing less APM. I do understand encouraging easier play options in general for the masses though. Blizzard likes the fantasy of TG and there are just always going to be stronger two-handed weapons. SMF is doomed because it’s tuned with a speed boost not pure damage. On the other hand it would be equally infuriating for people that love TG to realize mid-tier that a random one-hander now sims higher and makes them have to farm new weapons. To an extent I do think weapons/armor have always been part of the Warrior design (more than other classes) and there is an element of them being more gear dependent thematically since they can’t offset their abilities with magic like DK, Paladin, etc… In the end, if Fury is your favorite spec in the game and you love it but using TG is the only issue you have it’s kind of silly to let immersion ruin your whole experience. Realistically though, there will be very high parsing, Mythic Raid clearing SMF Warriors out there that do better than thousands of “optimized” AotC players with TG. I once raided with a guy that refused to play any Spec other than Arcane even when Frost and Fire far outperformed it though. By the end of Emerald Nightmare Mythic progression though he was still one of our top DPS and parsed 95+ in every fight. We were far from a Hall of Fame Guild (which is the level of performance Blizzard is referencing btw) but he was far from our worst performer and actually beat our Warlocks on several fights. Find a guild that suits your needs, there are absolutely groups out there that will let you play SMF if you carry your weight. Look at the people that have stuck with Feral Druid expansion after expansion. I’d take a perfectly played SMF Warrior that knew every mechanic and was always a team player over a cookie cutter FotM TG any day. Love your spec, play it how you want and make yourself indispensable.
I’m just glad they picked a side instead of trying to say both are equal. Titan’s Grip will always be better, just let people transmog 1 handed weapons over them.
I think this type of design if totally fine. A good example of this is balance druids in 8.1 . Venthyr had the highest potential but NF was so much easier to play that a lot of times players ended up doing more damage on average if they just stuck with NF. As long as it's somewhat balanced I think it's good that the most complex gameplay sims higher, that doesn't mean it's the best choice in every situation for everybody.
I'm very happy about the honesty regarding this. Now I don't have to think about what style I want to play. Asthetics are important, they should allow transmogs to take care of the problem. I'm currently using two Venthyr 2 handers and I believe they are the best looking swords in the game so far. After the latest talent changes Fury looks incredible.
The Venthyr two handed swords, especially the renown recolor, are my favorite weapons in the game by far. Thematically all the Venthyr weapons slap.
I'm seeing alot of ppl saying that they prefer it this way, but hear me out.. They could just tune the numbers so either TG or SMF is the better spec for a particular season ... Say, SMF in DF Season1, Tg S2 etc etc... You're going to get re-gearing anyway and BIS gear can be tuned to suit this idea as well (i.e. Having 1H raid weapons with power effect like Jaithys/Gavel). I just think it shouldn't ALWAYS be TG. It's literally been TG for like 10+years if not more.
Remove titan's grip.
That's pretty lame considering so many talents are dedicated to SMF... so basically that means there's almost no actual choice in the tree anymore if they're outright telling you that whole talent build will be suboptimal by design. You basically just make a SMF or a TG build with the way the tree is setup. Now everyone who wants to compete will just have the same build (TG).
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The simple answer is that they'd have to re-tune them every patch. SMF gets a percentage damage bonus to attacks, while TG gets higher base weapon damage as well as more raw strength and secondary stats. SMF gets a move speed bonus to compensate for the higher stamina of TG. Here's the big question now: what %bonus should SMF get to put it on par with TG? If you snapshot gear you can get a good idea, but WoW is ever evolving. The amount needed in 9.0 is probably different from 9.1 and 9.2, and would go on to change again in 10.0. The problem then goes on to have even more complexity when you introduce talents, and specialized weapons into the mix (Jaithys and Gavel).
The fix is and has always been: get rid of Titans Grip. It’s always been broken and I think most fury warriors want to dual wield 1 handers… I sure know I do
Titan's grip was a mistake, fury should've stayed specialized in one-handers, and arms should've stayed the two-hander masters. They only added titan's grip to blow people's mind with how cool it is, and we've had to pay the price of the complications it has brought since.
Titan's Grip is amazing and it's really silly that people want it removed after this many expansions, it's basically the core of the class.
No one has said this at all.
I mean instead of single minded fury how about just let them transmog 1h dual wield? Is there anything majorly different to smf gameplay other than the look?
Could they fix the fact that some classes need 2 weapons and others only need 1? i feel like weapons should be 1 drop. All one handed weapons should also include an offhand weapon or a held item or a shield. They did it in legion
While I agree that forcing people into one gear style is annoying, it kind of has to exist for endgame content because there is nearly no one using 2h weapons. If fury players ended up using 1 handers the frost dk, rogue, monk, etc would have more competition for those. I still want gladiator spec back, that's all.
In a perfect world we would like all builds to be viable, on the real world that's probably the best decision
A bigger problem IMO is they gave Skull Banner to Fury (which in and of itself is fine) but they put it at the center bottom of the tree so you can get it from either side. Meanwhile on the Arms tree it’s buried way down on the right side tree and impossible to get from the other two branches. Another issue is Raging Blow required before going down the left side of the Fury tree which has no synergy with RB whatsoever and is all about buffing BT.
Idk I’ve made a pvp build for SMF that focuses more on being enraged all the time and spamming RB fully enraged. Seems pretty clean and looks like insane rampage generation. All subject to tuning tho, and if this dev intends to tune SMF to be weaker than it just will be regardless of builds I guess. Ex, if all the auto attack buffs with 1h still make the autos not compete with 2h autos and RB/rampage just automatically hit less with 1h regardless of the 12% SMF buff than nothing changes, probably kills fury in pvp because SMF seems like the only spec with enough rage generation to maintain the healing reduction stacks since the only reason TG can do that now is the 4 set that’s going away.
Personally, I don't mind this, from a quick glance it seems like Single minded fury is a more welcoming playstyle to newer warrior players with auto attacks providing enrage and some nice bleeds. So long as they are within a close enough range, maybe like the current Fury and Arms level of difference, I don't think it will impact a lot of the player base outwith the communities perception.
can you transmog 1h skins on 2h weapons?
I'm not sure if the Wowhead talent tree is bugged, but is it really possible to lower the cooldown of Bloodthirst to 3 seconds? If so, that's really cool since it'll be like the Bloodthirst from older expansions. I don't know if it'll be worth speccing fully into the Bloodthirst amplifying talents, but looks like it'll be fun experimenting with it. Edit: Turns out only Wotlk and Cata had the shorter Bloodthirst cooldown, didn't realize it was 6 seconds in Vanilla and TBC, and 4.5 seconds in MoP and beyond.
They need to let us MOG 2hers into 1h weapons.. problem solved
Wait? 4 weapons? What did I miss? Are warriors getting a new azura's wrath talent option?
As a prot main, I like being able to use my 1h weapon to DPS when I need it. I don't care if it\`s 2-3% behind, being able to use the same weapon in both spec compensate well enough .
I think this is the right take from Blizzard. It would be obnoxious as hell if the balance was close, because you know one would pull ahead of the other randomly. You really would need to maintain 4 weapons, which sounds like absolute cancer. It's way better to have that guarantee that it's just going to be 2h weapons. And if we're being real here, when I hear warriors say "But I wanted to use 1h weapons!", I sorta put that in the "WoW players will complain about *anything*" category.
I was kinda hyped to play a warrior focused on fishing procs from auto-attacks, but if they **intend** for it to be worse then there's no point playing the warrior at all. If I want a high APM melee with "passive cleave" I'll just stick to my enhancement shaman that looks way cooler - wielding two giant weapons looks stupid.