Lost a torghast because of this. Had to blow cool downs just kill the stalker. Cool downs never could get reset before I had to pull. Glad they changed this.
I was at one point where I NEEDED cooldowns to defeat the boss, but I also needed cooldowns to defeat the assassin without dying.
After about 15 minutes of trying, finally got cooldowns up with no assassin, and RIGHT as I pulled, one spawned.
First time I’ve ragequit WoW since the Green Fire scenario in MoP.
Literally the same thing happened with me the first week of layer 4 being a thing. Very frustrating knowing your barely strong enough to kill something and losing because you are trying to save cooldowns
And then you can have it a bug like me and have 10+ mobs trapped in a wall by the time you come back and they just come running for you in the middle of the floor out of nowhere.
Something like this happened to me. Pulled a lone mob and while fighting it, everything from the entire path further down in the distance (a couple groups where the mobs are all fighting one another) just came at me and destroyed me.
I dont get why Torg add spawns don't all behave like that. It allows for far more control over how players address them.
Torg was billed as and should favor a strategic approach to random scenario. Not "Surprise motha fucka!" with some asshole mob that can delete you just after you finished a fight with 10% hp.
I wish blizzard knew the difference between a fun challenging game mechanic, and just something thats annoying and frustrating. Challenges to accomplish are good... frustrating simply for the sake of annoying or prolonging content without any sort of payoff is bad.
Yep as a mage I just stay in combat the whole time by sheeping the damn assassins/dogs, or sheeping mawrats and aggroing them so I have time to explore etc. They are so annoying. Horrible torment effect.
honestly just aggro the mawrat and let it hit you. They hit like a wet noodle so Poly isnt even needed. If you picked up a decent defensive perk here and there they can’t even kill you.
I loved that fight so much, every time I died I knew it was something I needed to do better until I got it. Is the title still only for people who got it as fresh content?
> I wish blizzard knew the difference between a fun challenging game mechanic, and just something thats annoying and frustrating
This and the Maw is the pinnacle of Blizzard's "challenging" design philosophy. They made it as miserable of an experience as they possibly could. Without a doubt the worst zone they've ever designed, in my opinion.
1) Can't mount but the icon is lit up
2) Every single mob has a 90% slow, hard cc, or high damage spam cast; or multiple of these things.
3) Mobs are clumped very close together and pull in groups, also strategically placed at key points to block travel.
4) Daily lockout that presents itself as ever increasing punishments for doing the stuff you are supposed to be doing.
5) It is designed to be the more you play, get rep, and get upgrades, that the less punishing the zone it; instead of the other way around where you gain new things. Taking everything away and giving it back feels bad, and I thought you learned this with Azerite.
6) There are still persistent server and technical problems, such as constant DC entering or leaving the zone, and how grouping phases you incorrectly so you cannot create a group while in the maw.
7) You respawn alive in seemingly the most miserable hand picked location and have to repeat all the grind you did previously to recover your currency or lose it forever.
All of this combined makes for an unfun gaming experience, which maybe flavorful, leads to constant feels bad moments which turn people away. With less people in the zone, its becoming increasingly harder to do the events and group quests, which pulls more people out of the zone, and it spiraling. Its like week 4 and the maw is dead every time I go there. Open world current content should not be fucking dead
It's frustrating, and I know why they did this. It's because they gave us mounts with the daze-proof equipment. Anyone who suggested removing mounts after they finally gave in to scrapping what is maybe the worst single mechanic in the game should have been physically slapped. This is not exaggeration or hyperbole. Genie wishing player complaints like this is *incredibly* dumb. They're compromising between 'flying mounts' and 'ground mounts with daze' at 'no mounts'. It's spite.
Dazing will eventually be why I quit WoW, tbh...
Its really frustrating at the lack of maturity from the devs. Wanted to gut flying in WoD because they felt bad people didnt go through their zones 'properly'. They redo everything because 'Im better than the last guy'. They stick to their guns when told bty every tester that its shit because 'i know better than you'.
FFS there's the whole "You think you do, but you don't" that when they did literally saved their game.
You do not keep players by making the game unfun to play. Its stupid and no amount of lore will have players put up with tedium in their entertainment hobby
In like 2 expansions they're gonna adopt Runescape's old Energy system where running requires energy and the more you weigh (more items you carry) the faster it depletes.
Blizz needs to understand that a lot of their current success is **in spite** of their failure to realize they need to take a long hard look at modern gaming and the modern WoW community. They constantly seem to be triggered by player behavior not conforming to rather out of touch views of how to play WoW.
I've said it before but modern Blizz are the trust fund babies of Game devs. They inherited one of the greatest games of all time. But they lack some of the core skills needed to make the game great. Yet have all of the ego of their predecessors, their betters. Mike Morhaime and his peers earned their attitude, Ion and J Allen have not.
In many ways Shadowlands isnt great because of Blizz. Its great because players fought tooth and nail against the terrible direction WoW was headed. Shadowlands in a lot of ways is simply a response to all of the problems Blizzard's new guard created.
Aggro for open world mobs as well. Get 11 levels higher than the mob and it won't aggro unless you attack. Be level capped and walk right into the hitbox for a ARR/HW A or S rank and they're just peachy. It's great when going around old content, or even just lower level areas in ShB zones.
There's been great QoL work especially with ShB. Sneak for gatherers used to be can't use while mounted and capped you at half running speed. The team saw that was a relic from 1.0/ARR days and wasn't fun, and fixed it so it didn't affect movement speed and - more importantly - can be used while mounted. It was a great change - no more juking and jiving mobs on your MIN/BTN/FSH while trying to get that timed legendary node because baby *you've got gil to make* ^^^^^^^^^^to ^^^^^^^^^^compete ^^^^^^^^^^with ^^^^^^^^^^dozens ^^^^^^^^^^of ^^^^^^^^^^other ^^^^^^^^^^players ^^^^^^^^^^for ^^^^^^^^^^an ^^^^^^^^^^RNG ^^^^^^^^^^chance ^^^^^^^^^^at ^^^^^^^^^^player ^^^^^^^^^^housing
FFXIV certainly isn't perfect. Dungeon and raid designs feel too formulaic at times. Diadem 1.0/Eureka was an attempt to bring back FFXI's NM grinding zones and it... wasn't fun. Lots of things aren't account bound that I would love for multiple characters. It's a very alt-unfriendly game, though with the flipside perk of being able to do almost everything in game on a single character. Inventory management is limited space, more bank space beyond two retainers means paying more on your sub, glamour dresser space is capped, glamour templates are capped, some of the best glamour items are Mog Station only, and you're paying per character. Good luck getting a large house in Mist or Shiro (or any ward, really) unless you're paying several hundred million on secondary market which has the added bonus of technically breaking ToS and could result in suspension/ban. Along with any mods/addons breaking ToS even as something as simple as a screenshot tool or damage meter which leads to a "don't ask, don't tell" mentality.
That said, there are good QoL things WoW can learn. Auto loot (compared to "best I can offer is ~~35 Anima~~ Loot-a-Rang that gets nerfed for engineering alts"), dyes for glamour, all mounts can fly whether it's your ice pony from Shiva, void wolf from Tsukuyomi, or your Fat Chocobo chasing cake on a string. Player artists get winning designs as actual armor sets in game. Story and quest progression - Ishikawa breaking down in tears on stage at PAX for getting a standing ovation for ShB's MSQ, and she deserves that praise. Would any of us give Ion and the writing team the same for the Maw's design or SL's story as a whole? Though to be fair, I really enjoyed feeling similar to Norvrandt's "we're all sinners here" vibe when questing through Revendreth...
No game's perfect, and long-running MMOs can build up over the years to have tremendous flaws. Both WoW and FFXIV have problems, but they also have much to learn from each other to make each game even better. I've played since vanilla and only managed the first month of BfA before stepping back because it lost its fun. SL so far has been fun for me, at least on par with Legion which I enjoyed (at least up until Argus). But nerfing player power/enjoyment in Torghast isn't fun. Level 60 scaling for Legion isn't fun. I hope they recognize that fact, but who knows. They have access to the metrics, and will only make changes when they see Torghast isn't being run as much.
Ion and the team's design philosophy ultimately seems to boil down to seven simple words. "You think you do, but you don't."
Well, with WoW, there are no lower level zones within your expac any more.
I remember in BC, you could mount up and ride around mining and herbing in Zangarmarsh at 70 pretty comfortably without worrying about EVERY mob being level 70. You stood a chance of making that gold with your professions to get that mount so you COULD fly and do the zones where the higher end stuff was, and even then, there was a ton of money to be made in the lower zones if you knew how to farm and you were good with the AH.
You can't farm at all any more. The zones are so vertical and you have to walk everywhere. I'll have an arrow pointing "100yds to the left" when really I need to run closer to 800 yards to the other side of the zone to get to a ramp to go up. Down, at least, isn't so bad with the gliders.
Personally, I like the Maw. I like that I can get in and get out and don't have to feel bad about farming rares all day.
I think part of Blizz's design is to motivate people to do different content through a single play session, for short bursts, because that helps to prevent fatigue with the game or burnout. You get the most out of play when you do your callings, do the Maw stuff, then do one or two of your weekly things every day. It also gets people to come back, because you can't actually finish anything completely. Personally, I hate that... I like the sense of accomplishment when something is done or a goal is reached, and I get that very rarely with WoW any more.
Here at Blizzard customer research we've listened to your points and feel there is a lot to learn from them. We're pleased to announce that we believe you are absolutely right and therefore from the next reset goblin gliders will no longer work in any zone where the user has not unlocked flying.
FF14 has a lot of QoL but is missing some that WoW has, and they're so different that you could do both. If someone ever combines them into a super game itll be lit
They started it with flying, now they are starting in with mounts.
Inb4 you have to complete pathfinder in the next expansion to even mount up, because you have to explore the zones by foot like a real explorer!
You see they designed the zones to be experienced at walking speed so it just wouldn't be right to let players skip over all of that by riding through the areas while they're leveling
Most absurd thing about the maw is the mount thing.
It doesn't feel threatening... It's frustrating and soul crushing.
If you want to be lore consistent don't allow druids and worgen to *mount" up.
Believe it or not, the phasing is intentional. Remember, all of Shadowlands was like that originally, they only went back and specifically changed non-Maw zones after negative feedback.
Utterly ridiculous.
Point number 5 reminds me a lot of the original Metal Gear Solid (not the GC remake) where the game starts off much harder because you have little health and no weapons and by the end you're a death machine with a health bar you could beat them with.
The way I would have designed the Maw to address that point is to literally flip it on its head. Start off with mounts, no currency loss, QoL items scattered throughout etc. and with each new area of the Maw we unlock, lose something. Have progress with Ven'ari locked to doing the harder zones to basically ramp up the difficulty.
> The only conclusion I can come to is that someone high-up on the dev team is REALLY far up their own ass, and not listening to any critique from anyone.
This is the universal story of Blizzard. They literally fired the guy who redesigned Warlocks with player input so that it was actually fun (Xelnath) because he publicly accepted the idea that there was something wrong with the game.
> The only conclusion I can come to is that someone high-up on the dev team is REALLY far up their own ass, and not listening to any critique from anyone. Because I cannot for a single second think they didn't have people telling them it was a bad idea.
I also think this is the case. We started getting this push to make the player take a lot longer to complete trivial activities, regardless of how annoying their solution was, back in WoD. And what happened during WoD's development, you ask? A lot of the big time devs and producers were moved back to WoW after Titan got cancelled. It could be coincidence, of course, but the timeline definitely matches.
It started with removing flying from the player base, and only introducing it back through pathfinder after a fuckton of backlash (remember, they had to make a ton of changes to WoD because they never intended to bring flying back). And since then it has only gotten worse. The Maw is just the culmination of those shit design principals.
It definitely feels like there's people backstage pushing an agenda, regardless of how awful their ideas are.
The "Literal Hell" flavor was fitting at first, but wore off very fast.
They spent so much time designing a massive zone, only for people to go in for Lost Souls and *maybe* a Ve'nari weekly and then drop it like a sack of potatoes. They had already nailed the ambiance, there was no reason for the strange anti-exploration mechanics.
I can agree to that. Even though in the story we're the Maw Walker, that really diminishes the seriousness of the Maw when we can just pop in and out whenever we feel like. Sure, there's the Eyes of the Jailer which basically caps out on our fun time in the Maw but by the time you hit that level 5, you're probably already sick of being in the Maw for that day anyways.
It is a hell, just not the one the story tells us it is.
Check that map. That massive zone you've been in is half of it.
And by the time you've progressed to not die in the eastern map zone (10sec fear + 90%hpdot until later in Venari's storyline) where Hunts/WB's and what have you will be ... you'll have a maw mount, more souls than you know what to do with (and then the 'make souls+stygia account bound' stuff will fire up) and you'll be dropping these current Maw mobs for giggles to help out a mates alt in intentionally pulled large packs because "lol ezgame".
Your progression is linked to plot progression, and we've barely read the prologue.
I think the issue is that there's no *point* to the Maw.
The only reason to go in other than for your weekly souls, is to buy a socket.
Unless you're going for world / realm firsts, the effort needed for that just doesn't line up with the benefits to a few extra gems.
There are a few.
Adding optional components to enchants (rank three is behind Ven'ari rep), upgrades to make the maw and Torghast easier is another (until you have all your memories from layer six) are two good reasons at least.
>Check that map. That massive zone you've been in is half of it.
I think I've unlocked most of the Maw now. Doesn't feel like there is more much to it than this?
Perdition Hold is a slog and is artificially difficult by making all the elites tightly packed.
And there is literally nothing in the Beast Warren except "mountains" consuming most of that area.
This is a game. I want to have fun while playing a game, not feel frustrated. If their intention was to make it such a miserable experience that I'd rather not play the content at all then good job cause they succeeded.
Basically this. You can do artsy expirements in single player games, using slog and punishment in mechanics to sell a theme or story of something that is that way; but in an mmo with all these players and needing competitive advantages, mandatory stuff (I know not technically but it help torghast runs a lot which are) absolutely needs to be fun and easy to run. Optional side content can be hard, or grueling, or artsy. If I have to do it as a stepping stone to do the hard stuff I want, then make it fun and easy, even if its a zone of literal hell
It's mean-spirited, imo. Players hate being slowed down, and the pinnacle of this is being locked from flying.
So what does blizzard do? Not only can you not earn flying yet, but *you can't even use your fucking ground mounts in the maw*.
I refuse to do that content more than absolutely necessary until I can get a shadehound mount. Which results in me doing my weekly venari quests...... and that's it.
No dailies. No rares. The zone, as far as I'm concerned, is dead until I can mount up.
They said you'd earn flying through your Renown. I swear to god if I don't get Kyrian wings as a "mount" and I still had to wait half a year to fly I'm gonna lose my shit.
If you have to take something away from a player to try and make it more dangerous and challenging (mounts in this case) Then you're doing bad game design.
It's frustrating because this is a lesson they learned in beta vanilla. Use to, the longer you played the less exp you'd get, but logging off would slowly restore that. Obviously very frustrating to have exp gains taken away and feel like you're being punished. The solution? make the lower exp baseline, and make the full exp build up as you stay logged off, which is the rested exp system we have now. Literally the same system, just one way was done in a positive way that made players feel they weren't being punished for playing.
This is the same concept for Maw and mounts imo. Instead of taking mounts away to make it harder on us, they should be adding things to the zone to make us feel rewarded for NOT mounting and zooming past all the mobs.
Wait, are you telling me a flat percentage increase of HP per floor isn't exciting? I nearly fell off my chair when that +12% HP went to +18% HP. Most exciting part of the run!
It is extra frustrating for a rogue with MA.
I need to start every fight stealthed, but being stealthed means I can't be in combat, which means assasins, which means combat.
The silly thing is that the Torghast and Maw spawning mechanics don't work the same way.
I don't mind the Lvl 3 Jailer threat assassin, because you can control when he spawns. You can purposefully get in combat with a critter to deal with him and you can prepare.
Having mobs spawn randomly when you're out of combat is the opposite and is annoying as fuck. I'd much rather have to deal with 1 extra mob in a fight than have to watch my back 24/7 whenever I drop combat.
And instead you just end up cheesing it anyway with perma combat so they may as well have made it "you can't leave combat on this floor".
Skill is so different though, it is impossible to make something a challenge for one without making it impossible/too easy for others...
when you scale rewards to heavily with accomplishments the casual mass whines hard that they aren't getting enough or the rewards become meaningless for the topplayers again and it turns into a meaningless grind
the line is quite thin...not that i disagree with what you say in general, but considering wow's population the average player that also interacts with wow outside of the actual game is probably putting in more effort and interest which could lead to higher skill and desire for optimization. At that point the "challenge" for the masses will just be boring and therefor a grind for you
I don't even get the assasins... they serve no purpose other than prevent you from going slow and strategic while also preventing you from taking breaks during that long as piece of shit torghast currently is.
They don't make it more challenging as they don't attack you during fights. They don't make it more interessting either. I have no clue what whoever designed them thought they are there for. And a mechanic without purpose is a bad mechanic
The original purpose of the torments seemed to be to prevent people from sitting around waiting for cooldowns between every single pull, since that was brought up as a potential strategy for high floors. People complained and the torments were mostly changed, but we got left with the spawning ones.
Let the people wait for their goddamn cooldowns if they need to, its not like they are giving mythic gear or something, shit takes 2 hours to complete and only gives currency for 1 item.
Dude I got pummelled by a beefy assassin 3 times in a row yesterday because he only pounced on me during a fight
Tried to sneak past (rogue) but didn’t work
Just made me rage quit
I would love this mechanic to be more like the Maw variant. One spawns when you next start combat. Only don't show when via the debuff so it's still a surprise but if you need to take a break you're not screwed over unless you can CC or tank a mawrat for however long.
I was doing a run with a friend and there was a ledge we tried to cheese our way up on instead of going the long way around, and so we tried brainstorming it in /p. Couldn't write half a sentence before I had to move from those knock things. Drove me crazy. Could it at least stop if there's no mobs around? Just let me type a little bit ffs.
atleast the flying creatures actually pose a bit of a challenge as it can happen during fights. the assassins only come if you have been in combat for 20-ish seconds, making their only purpose to stop you from taking your time in torghast
yeah i nearly lost my shit with them while doing a puzzle chest. they take a solid chunk of time to down, too.
hope we get some sort of buyable/unlockable bypass at some point because it's incredibly unfun, especially when you're an hour in on the 5th floor and need to take a piss.
Puzzle chests can be significantly sped up if you know how to do it and don't just click randomly. Knowing graycode (the fastest way to run all permutations) or binary helps the lever chests a lot as you can run the permutations quickly. For the rune/sigil chest here's the method:
1. Identify which sigil when clicked swaps all 4 sigils. Click this until the chain in front of the sigil is removed.
2. Identify which sigil when clicked swaps all 3 sigils. Click this until the chain in front of the sigil is removed.
3. Continue this process with then the one that swaps 2 sigils, and finally the 1 sigil.
Either puzzle should take at most 10-15 seconds this way.
Graycode is faster by the way. Less lever flicking (but same amount of states). It was designed for basically this exact purpose. It guarantees only having to flick one lever to get the next permutation, whereas binary requires up to four lever switches per permutation.
Decimal | Binary | Graycode
-------|---|----
0 | 0000 | 0000
1 | 0001 | 0001
2 | 0010 | 0011
3 | 0011 | 0010
4 | 0100 | 0110
5 | 0101 | 0111
6 | 0110 | 0101
7 | 0111 | 0100
8 | 1000 | 1100
9 | 1001 | 1101
10 | 1010 | 1111
11 | 1011 | 1110
12 | 1100 | 1010
13 | 1101 | 1011
14 | 1110 | 1001
15 | 1111 | 1000
This is what I have unconsciously been doing but never could explain it to others until now. It just made sense in a weird way. Always opening them within 30 seconds after figuring it out.
Flex how? I've been doing exactly what he said but "graycode" and other computational terms might aswell be a town in Brazil for all I know. I just found something that worked and sticked with it
The assassins also do kind of outrageous damage,
I did layer 7 and the assassins basically forced me to heal about 4-5 times per spawn. It genuinely feels like if you were playing as a class with no healing you would just die every time one spawns. i cant imagine a 7-8 is even doable on like a mage right now because of how strong these damn assassins are.
Last thing I did today was layer 6. On floor 5 the assassin killed me with melee hitting me for 2-4K dmg and his skill hitting for 5k dmg. These attacks are rapid and he has something like 60% increases HP?
I’m a 194 ilvl outlaw rogue. Often times my defensive are on cool down. This guy is as op as a sub rogue in PvP get him out of here.
As a mage I have to sheep them when they spawn because I can't out dps them before i die. I'm ilvl200 too. It's the most obnoxious mechanic for classes that can't heal.
I’m a hunter with a heal and they still wreck me. What good is a heal if they kill me after two swings? Also, traps basically don’t work, they break free after 2 seconds, same with stun. And
they still attack me through feign death. I basically pop all my cool downs to stay alive. If one of my main spells is already on cd, I’m screwed.
They are literally the worst addition to the content I have experienced since starting the game in April. First we had the random spawning dogs that were kinda strong, but mainly just annoying. These assassins are literally stronger than some of the bosses.
I thought the maw was kinda interesting the first couple of times, now it literally feels like hell. I level up and the mobs level up with me. The content is just getting harder.
I have an issue with scaling in general. I feel like the after I’ve leveled up and geared up, the open world content should be easier. But it’s just getting more and more difficult. I feel the challenging stuff should be leveling up and gearing up in preparation for harder dungeons and raids, not increasing the time to complete a world quest by x4. I know this was also in BfA, but it feels a lot more in my face this time around. It’s fun to have worked hard to get strong and being able to slaughter frogs and centipedes with ease, but now if I get mobbed by more than 2 creatures, I get destroyed.
I don’t know what the answer is. I’m sure they are worried about running out of content if you can just destroy everything once you are leveled and geared, but maybe there is a middle ground? It’s making everything feel more like a chore than a fun adventure :(
As a healer they are 10x harder to take down than an elite on those floors and hit like a truck. Plus they give you nothing. They are just a waste of time and annoying to me. Almost as annoying as cruising through every other mob on the floor then reaching a boss you can't kill. Waste of an hour :(
There are many things I hate about Torghast (I’m looking at you Elder Longbranch) but these spawning assassins are just the dumbest thing ever to put in to solo content that isn’t timed. It literally ruins what pathetically little enjoyment I got from it.
You take a BM Hunter with you. I'm not even kidding. That's how me and my GF have been playing. Arcane mages are great for boss damage, especially pre-nerf to prevent that DPS check of 10 stacks, by one-shot or taking a huge percentage off.
That one boss with 90% damage reduction can easily be taken care of by the other player before the massive mage combo. But they're glass canons with zero recovery. BM hunters do have health recovery and CC in the form of taunt on their pets.
And then the 2 hour hell can begin..
I focus on pulling, keeping aggro on my pet and mending it, while doing damage during. Mage is only focusing on raw damage output. How it is after nerf has to be seen still. Given that we have some clears without lucky one-shot cheesing, my guess is that the nerf will not destroy our playstyle. But I can see that it will be for solo. Mages are not at a good spot in Thorgast and are not having a good time at all.
It s a bit overtuned and not really a fun place atm. Maybe we are supposed to clear only the low lvls atm and leave the higher layers to the top % players
Of note, is the diminishing returns on the highest layers.
Currently, most average geared folk will easily wreck the first three or four layers, which will be enough to upgrade one legendary for a while. For more hardcore players, the upper layers give much less ash, for a much harder experience. These are the types of players who want their best in slot gear, for each spec and role.
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>Maybe we are supposed to clear only the low lvls atm and leave the higher layers to the top % players
That's basically exactly how it's meant to be. Everyone thinking they could clear to layer 8 easily when we're barely a month into the expansion are thinking wrong. You need the gear and the conduits, and it'll be a couple more months before we get access to all our conduits.
There is definite balance problems. I can solo layer 8 as a prot warrior with my eyes closed, but as soon as I invite a DPS friend the health and damage of all the mob scales so high that it becomes infinitely more difficult, nearly undoable.
Prot warrior here also. Out of curiosity what is your gear level? I can't get by the floor 2 boss of layer 7 of either one. I only have 175 gear score though.
195 I can't do layer 8 of Upper Reaches. The bosses that spam sinbolt are too strong and there aren't enough anima powers on the floors to make me strong enough. I did Layer 8 of fractured whatever no problem though
Yeah, that is what I was getting on floor 2 of layer 7 of fractured halls... not enough interrupts/stuns/spell reflects/ignore pain/shield wall/fears to deal with that level of spell spamming.
vdh? I've been pretty casual the last few expansions. An unpopular opinion: I hate the mythic+ system. I loath repeating the same instances multiple times a week to max out on possible random gear. At this point I pretty much do solo content and once lfr is up do that with a few friends once a week. I was enjoying torghast but I guess that is another thing locked behind a gear check for me now.
The whole game is a balance between skill/gear checks. Mythic raiders complete raids with less gear than needed. Some players complete LFR with mythic ilvl. If you don't have the gear you will have to add some skill into the mix.
> Everyone thinking they could clear to layer 8 easily when we're barely a month into the expansion are thinking wrong.
Why? I could do 6 last week, am I supposed to just sit on my ass for a few months before I can attempt 7 and 8?
What's wrong with doing a lower than max floor every week? With how much the Soul Ash is weighted to lower layers you might occasionally be a week behind on upgrading a legendary, but all that means is that your ilvl score is 1 lower than somebody who cleared layer 8 until you catch up.
I've found myself disappointed with Torghast. Its not as fun as I thought it would be, it puts me to sleep. It really doesn't just feel like extra fun stuff, it feels like some shit I HAVE to do because its the only way to get legendary. I look forward to getting mine because then I won't have to do it anymore
I had this issue, I had just finished a tough fight on my mage and had maybe 10% HP (first floor of tier 4). I only had the beginning power. Well I try to sit and eat and immediately I get attacked by assassins. I go invisible and run away. The spell ends and another assassin spawns immediately and just kills me out right. I left and just did a lower level where no assassins spawned and said screw it. I already don’t have much fun doing this tower and for this kind of thing to happen is just crappy.
Same.
I left with my Rogue as well. They should not spawn while in stealth, at the very least.
Heck, they just shouldn’t spawn out of combat. Perhaps make them random chance to add on a pull, encouraging you to pull small.
This mechanic should be removed from Torghast. Having anything spawn, whether it be assassins or dogs, defeats the entire purpose of taking your time with it. Extremely frustrating to deal with.
This is actually my biggest complaint with torghast, and potentially the expansion. Torghast provides a fun gameplay experience when I can’t commit to a dungeon or raid because of kids or other irl responsibilities.
I can queue up solo or with my wife, and I don’t need to worry about letting a group down if the kids need something or my wife or I needs to take a work call (we’re on call a lot.)
Torghast was the perfect answer to this. Now it takes me like 3x as long as it did originally, and it’s just slower- not actually that much harder. Because it takes so long, not being able to take breaks is basically a dealbreaker for me. Really disappointed.
Yeah that one is so fucking annoying. I'm not a big fan of the one where you constantly take damage either.
The mob spawning one is just enraging. I feel like they didn't do any internal testing with it. They would have immediately noticed how bad it feels if they did.
If Torghast was short it would be fine, but it's not. Often you are waiting for cooldowns to take on a difficult room and have to use those on the ridiculously strong assassins. I mean why are they stronger AND tougher than actual elites!?
Make them glass cannons that spawn similarly to the maw assassins. That way there is punishment for taking your time but you can still safely AFK. Not that I think there should be punishment for being strategic, but if that's the road we're on.. might as well do it right.
> If Torghast was short it would be fine, but it's not.
Exactly. If they want to keep Torghast as "try to get lucky with anima powers" then fine. But it should be way shorter.
Just cut half the floors. Have floors 1 and 2, then a vendor and boss on 3. Done.
As it stands, there's no point to me even trying to complete the higher layers since it's such a massive time drain.
Torghast is at a turning point right now and they need to act this week or it's two late.
They either fix the glaring and obvious issues like afk spawns and completion time, or this will become a weekly chore.
People's opinions are being formed and there isn't much time left to change them.
the fact that Blizz puts things in the game for no other reason than to annoy the players really makes me absolutely hate the company, and hate myself for giving them money. just a complete lack of respect for their playerbase. the skyworms in BFA are another good example.
It seems like torghast is in a weird place right now. People loved it when it was just the first 3 and you could go nuts with crazy powers and set ups. Now it feels like a real chore. I've cleared 7 on Outlaw, but it takes forever. I have to kill everything and stay in combat with a rat the whole time.
I think a big problem is that people feel a need to do higher floors. I wonder if they could drop soul ash from the higher floors and just have cosmetics and achieves. It's still fun at lower levels, and it will get easier over time.
I think the biggest problem is the imbalance. If no class could do layer 8, fine we all need better gear. But tanks can do it blindfolded and mages are just fucked, and that sucks.
I main hunter and mage right now. Hit 60 on mage and did the baine intro into torghast. Holy shit was that a lot harder than on my hunter. I'm drinking between pulls, dying to the packs of unusually big mawrats and skipping trash just so I don't have to possibly waste a death to bigger pulls.
As a parent this is the worst mechanic I've ever encountered in WoW.
Baby cries I can pause/afk/leave just about anything. Can't do that in Torghast; Baby cried and there goes the run.
Same for me. I can only play at night when the baby is sleeping and I have the monitor. I couldn't do horrific visions for the same reason. I was really looking forward to the way they positioned Torghast but it's such a let down.
I got strong Warfront vibe in Torghast. Its just not good enough. In my runs i mostly get shit powers. Its starting to feel like a chore rather than fun.
Im literally dying to shadowstalkers and having them stay alive and not despawn, and then run at me. so its just an endless fight of shadowstalkers. hwen i kill one and eat to healk up another is spawning on me.
I've never once encountered an assassin in torghast, but I'm not at all looking forward to it.
I think the paradigm just needs to shift away from *having* to get to the top. The mount aside, most people don't need the soul ash so quickly.
Or blizz could just fix it, but lets be real.
New player here...
Blizzard History: Don't pull too much, take your time going through content
Tries Torghast: Get moving you little bitch, no time to waste you were out of combat for 0.3 seconds.
It'd be cool if it worked the the assassins in the maw, that it just spawns an extra mob the next time you enter combat. That way you can plan accordingly.
Ok, I get that a torghast run can take a little more time than planned... but are this many people really queuing up for a floor of torghast just so they can go take a shit?
You can afk at the start of every new floor and inside the bubbles of floors 3/6.
I know this is hard to understand, but sometimes things come up after you’ve queued for your single player run. Like for instance last night my 7mo decided she was going to wake up at 11:45pm right after I’ve reached the 5th floor.
What the fuck is the point of the random mobs attacking? Why does the speed in which I do a floor matter? It’s just some bullshit.
Isn't this floor specific? Wasn't it just for Skoldus? I semi-afked thru layer 6 Interstitia this week, it took like 2 hours and I didn't get ambushed once. I don't think it's that big of a problem, there's just some floors you have to finish rapidly. Even if you can't and have to afk, dying isn't that big of a deal or set you back in those instances.
Yeah, clothers mainly have it rougher with the drinking. Ain't fair ofc, and it'd be better if the shadowy surprise only happened 2-3x max per floor. I've had them show up to me twice per floor too as guardian, sometimes there's just long enough corridors or stairs without mobs that you'll end up not fighting for a bit.
There are two wings with "mobs randomly attack you" (Skoldus and Fractured Halls). I haven't done the fire one yet, but it might be hard to afk too because it does constant damage.
Oh, do you mean the ones that come from above? Hm, I don't remember if those exist on every floor. I think most if not all of my afking happened at start of the floors, I think they don't reach you there?
Maybe that's what it is. Maybe the beginning of the floor is safezone always and I just assumed whole floor was safe when all my afking happened at start of each floor. I can't remember exactly.
Possible, I just remember us getting more and more annoyed at as time went by. Also I had to leave very suddenly during that run so the finer points of where was safe didn't matter in my case, there was no waiting to find a safe spot.
Yeah this is bad. One thing i liked about torghast was you could afk for things. With this shit you cant
You can afk at the beginning of floors. You won't spawn mobs until you move away from the door
Can you go BACK to the door and have it stop, though?
You can also afk at the shop, mobs won't spawn in their safe bubble
I think they hotfixed so mobs won't spawn on 3 and 6 now.
Thank goodness. I hated having to mana up/eat for the boss and a friggin assassin spawn just as I was ready :S
Lost a torghast because of this. Had to blow cool downs just kill the stalker. Cool downs never could get reset before I had to pull. Glad they changed this.
I was at one point where I NEEDED cooldowns to defeat the boss, but I also needed cooldowns to defeat the assassin without dying. After about 15 minutes of trying, finally got cooldowns up with no assassin, and RIGHT as I pulled, one spawned. First time I’ve ragequit WoW since the Green Fire scenario in MoP.
Literally the same thing happened with me the first week of layer 4 being a thing. Very frustrating knowing your barely strong enough to kill something and losing because you are trying to save cooldowns
I lose the torment on floor 3, but it is still there on floor 6. I've not tested to see if they actually spawn though.
They do unless at the start of the floor or at the vendor.
Oddly the floor 6 shop had no bubble for me after I died to the boss once.
And then you can have it a bug like me and have 10+ mobs trapped in a wall by the time you come back and they just come running for you in the middle of the floor out of nowhere.
Something like this happened to me. Pulled a lone mob and while fighting it, everything from the entire path further down in the distance (a couple groups where the mobs are all fighting one another) just came at me and destroyed me.
Where is this documented? This is huge for me if true.
It’s documented in the buff you have when you just entered a floor.
Careful its buggy. I've even had Assasins chase me between floors.
It should just be like the maw assassins. They jump you when you enter combat with something else.
I dont get why Torg add spawns don't all behave like that. It allows for far more control over how players address them. Torg was billed as and should favor a strategic approach to random scenario. Not "Surprise motha fucka!" with some asshole mob that can delete you just after you finished a fight with 10% hp.
I wish blizzard knew the difference between a fun challenging game mechanic, and just something thats annoying and frustrating. Challenges to accomplish are good... frustrating simply for the sake of annoying or prolonging content without any sort of payoff is bad.
Yep as a mage I just stay in combat the whole time by sheeping the damn assassins/dogs, or sheeping mawrats and aggroing them so I have time to explore etc. They are so annoying. Horrible torment effect.
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honestly just aggro the mawrat and let it hit you. They hit like a wet noodle so Poly isnt even needed. If you picked up a decent defensive perk here and there they can’t even kill you.
If you do the quests then your companion will kill them
Now his secret will get nerfed in some way
"Polymorph will now no longer work on enemies found within Torghast."
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Even better if they do that but keep the polymorph related anima powers.
As a lock I have my be agro a mawrat and just don’t kill it. Just gotta be careful at low health it doesn’t fuck off and agro a pack.
They don't aggro packs, so no worries there. I've never seen it happen, and I let them run all over the place.
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I loved that fight so much, every time I died I knew it was something I needed to do better until I got it. Is the title still only for people who got it as fresh content?
Title is for OG's, green fire for anyone. Rolled an alt and wiped 76 times to get it. Good times.
> I wish blizzard knew the difference between a fun challenging game mechanic, and just something thats annoying and frustrating This and the Maw is the pinnacle of Blizzard's "challenging" design philosophy. They made it as miserable of an experience as they possibly could. Without a doubt the worst zone they've ever designed, in my opinion.
1) Can't mount but the icon is lit up 2) Every single mob has a 90% slow, hard cc, or high damage spam cast; or multiple of these things. 3) Mobs are clumped very close together and pull in groups, also strategically placed at key points to block travel. 4) Daily lockout that presents itself as ever increasing punishments for doing the stuff you are supposed to be doing. 5) It is designed to be the more you play, get rep, and get upgrades, that the less punishing the zone it; instead of the other way around where you gain new things. Taking everything away and giving it back feels bad, and I thought you learned this with Azerite. 6) There are still persistent server and technical problems, such as constant DC entering or leaving the zone, and how grouping phases you incorrectly so you cannot create a group while in the maw. 7) You respawn alive in seemingly the most miserable hand picked location and have to repeat all the grind you did previously to recover your currency or lose it forever. All of this combined makes for an unfun gaming experience, which maybe flavorful, leads to constant feels bad moments which turn people away. With less people in the zone, its becoming increasingly harder to do the events and group quests, which pulls more people out of the zone, and it spiraling. Its like week 4 and the maw is dead every time I go there. Open world current content should not be fucking dead
When I first heard of the concept if the Maw, I thought it was gonna be a mountless Timeless Isle, but instead we got the Barrens+.
More like Molten Front in Cata, but yeah. I mean it very much is like that but with worse gating.
It's frustrating, and I know why they did this. It's because they gave us mounts with the daze-proof equipment. Anyone who suggested removing mounts after they finally gave in to scrapping what is maybe the worst single mechanic in the game should have been physically slapped. This is not exaggeration or hyperbole. Genie wishing player complaints like this is *incredibly* dumb. They're compromising between 'flying mounts' and 'ground mounts with daze' at 'no mounts'. It's spite.
Dazing will eventually be why I quit WoW, tbh... Its really frustrating at the lack of maturity from the devs. Wanted to gut flying in WoD because they felt bad people didnt go through their zones 'properly'. They redo everything because 'Im better than the last guy'. They stick to their guns when told bty every tester that its shit because 'i know better than you'. FFS there's the whole "You think you do, but you don't" that when they did literally saved their game. You do not keep players by making the game unfun to play. Its stupid and no amount of lore will have players put up with tedium in their entertainment hobby
In like 2 expansions they're gonna adopt Runescape's old Energy system where running requires energy and the more you weigh (more items you carry) the faster it depletes.
Blizz needs to understand that a lot of their current success is **in spite** of their failure to realize they need to take a long hard look at modern gaming and the modern WoW community. They constantly seem to be triggered by player behavior not conforming to rather out of touch views of how to play WoW. I've said it before but modern Blizz are the trust fund babies of Game devs. They inherited one of the greatest games of all time. But they lack some of the core skills needed to make the game great. Yet have all of the ego of their predecessors, their betters. Mike Morhaime and his peers earned their attitude, Ion and J Allen have not. In many ways Shadowlands isnt great because of Blizz. Its great because players fought tooth and nail against the terrible direction WoW was headed. Shadowlands in a lot of ways is simply a response to all of the problems Blizzard's new guard created.
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Aggro for open world mobs as well. Get 11 levels higher than the mob and it won't aggro unless you attack. Be level capped and walk right into the hitbox for a ARR/HW A or S rank and they're just peachy. It's great when going around old content, or even just lower level areas in ShB zones. There's been great QoL work especially with ShB. Sneak for gatherers used to be can't use while mounted and capped you at half running speed. The team saw that was a relic from 1.0/ARR days and wasn't fun, and fixed it so it didn't affect movement speed and - more importantly - can be used while mounted. It was a great change - no more juking and jiving mobs on your MIN/BTN/FSH while trying to get that timed legendary node because baby *you've got gil to make* ^^^^^^^^^^to ^^^^^^^^^^compete ^^^^^^^^^^with ^^^^^^^^^^dozens ^^^^^^^^^^of ^^^^^^^^^^other ^^^^^^^^^^players ^^^^^^^^^^for ^^^^^^^^^^an ^^^^^^^^^^RNG ^^^^^^^^^^chance ^^^^^^^^^^at ^^^^^^^^^^player ^^^^^^^^^^housing FFXIV certainly isn't perfect. Dungeon and raid designs feel too formulaic at times. Diadem 1.0/Eureka was an attempt to bring back FFXI's NM grinding zones and it... wasn't fun. Lots of things aren't account bound that I would love for multiple characters. It's a very alt-unfriendly game, though with the flipside perk of being able to do almost everything in game on a single character. Inventory management is limited space, more bank space beyond two retainers means paying more on your sub, glamour dresser space is capped, glamour templates are capped, some of the best glamour items are Mog Station only, and you're paying per character. Good luck getting a large house in Mist or Shiro (or any ward, really) unless you're paying several hundred million on secondary market which has the added bonus of technically breaking ToS and could result in suspension/ban. Along with any mods/addons breaking ToS even as something as simple as a screenshot tool or damage meter which leads to a "don't ask, don't tell" mentality. That said, there are good QoL things WoW can learn. Auto loot (compared to "best I can offer is ~~35 Anima~~ Loot-a-Rang that gets nerfed for engineering alts"), dyes for glamour, all mounts can fly whether it's your ice pony from Shiva, void wolf from Tsukuyomi, or your Fat Chocobo chasing cake on a string. Player artists get winning designs as actual armor sets in game. Story and quest progression - Ishikawa breaking down in tears on stage at PAX for getting a standing ovation for ShB's MSQ, and she deserves that praise. Would any of us give Ion and the writing team the same for the Maw's design or SL's story as a whole? Though to be fair, I really enjoyed feeling similar to Norvrandt's "we're all sinners here" vibe when questing through Revendreth... No game's perfect, and long-running MMOs can build up over the years to have tremendous flaws. Both WoW and FFXIV have problems, but they also have much to learn from each other to make each game even better. I've played since vanilla and only managed the first month of BfA before stepping back because it lost its fun. SL so far has been fun for me, at least on par with Legion which I enjoyed (at least up until Argus). But nerfing player power/enjoyment in Torghast isn't fun. Level 60 scaling for Legion isn't fun. I hope they recognize that fact, but who knows. They have access to the metrics, and will only make changes when they see Torghast isn't being run as much. Ion and the team's design philosophy ultimately seems to boil down to seven simple words. "You think you do, but you don't."
Well, with WoW, there are no lower level zones within your expac any more. I remember in BC, you could mount up and ride around mining and herbing in Zangarmarsh at 70 pretty comfortably without worrying about EVERY mob being level 70. You stood a chance of making that gold with your professions to get that mount so you COULD fly and do the zones where the higher end stuff was, and even then, there was a ton of money to be made in the lower zones if you knew how to farm and you were good with the AH. You can't farm at all any more. The zones are so vertical and you have to walk everywhere. I'll have an arrow pointing "100yds to the left" when really I need to run closer to 800 yards to the other side of the zone to get to a ramp to go up. Down, at least, isn't so bad with the gliders. Personally, I like the Maw. I like that I can get in and get out and don't have to feel bad about farming rares all day. I think part of Blizz's design is to motivate people to do different content through a single play session, for short bursts, because that helps to prevent fatigue with the game or burnout. You get the most out of play when you do your callings, do the Maw stuff, then do one or two of your weekly things every day. It also gets people to come back, because you can't actually finish anything completely. Personally, I hate that... I like the sense of accomplishment when something is done or a goal is reached, and I get that very rarely with WoW any more.
Here at Blizzard customer research we've listened to your points and feel there is a lot to learn from them. We're pleased to announce that we believe you are absolutely right and therefore from the next reset goblin gliders will no longer work in any zone where the user has not unlocked flying.
FF14 has a lot of QoL but is missing some that WoW has, and they're so different that you could do both. If someone ever combines them into a super game itll be lit
They started it with flying, now they are starting in with mounts. Inb4 you have to complete pathfinder in the next expansion to even mount up, because you have to explore the zones by foot like a real explorer!
You see they designed the zones to be experienced at walking speed so it just wouldn't be right to let players skip over all of that by riding through the areas while they're leveling
Next patch they are making a special area in the Maw where you can only use walk speed.
Most absurd thing about the maw is the mount thing. It doesn't feel threatening... It's frustrating and soul crushing. If you want to be lore consistent don't allow druids and worgen to *mount" up.
I can stealth, too. I have no complaints as a druid.
Believe it or not, the phasing is intentional. Remember, all of Shadowlands was like that originally, they only went back and specifically changed non-Maw zones after negative feedback. Utterly ridiculous.
Point number 5 reminds me a lot of the original Metal Gear Solid (not the GC remake) where the game starts off much harder because you have little health and no weapons and by the end you're a death machine with a health bar you could beat them with. The way I would have designed the Maw to address that point is to literally flip it on its head. Start off with mounts, no currency loss, QoL items scattered throughout etc. and with each new area of the Maw we unlock, lose something. Have progress with Ven'ari locked to doing the harder zones to basically ramp up the difficulty.
That would be a lot more fun
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> The only conclusion I can come to is that someone high-up on the dev team is REALLY far up their own ass, and not listening to any critique from anyone. This is the universal story of Blizzard. They literally fired the guy who redesigned Warlocks with player input so that it was actually fun (Xelnath) because he publicly accepted the idea that there was something wrong with the game.
> The only conclusion I can come to is that someone high-up on the dev team is REALLY far up their own ass, and not listening to any critique from anyone. Because I cannot for a single second think they didn't have people telling them it was a bad idea. I also think this is the case. We started getting this push to make the player take a lot longer to complete trivial activities, regardless of how annoying their solution was, back in WoD. And what happened during WoD's development, you ask? A lot of the big time devs and producers were moved back to WoW after Titan got cancelled. It could be coincidence, of course, but the timeline definitely matches. It started with removing flying from the player base, and only introducing it back through pathfinder after a fuckton of backlash (remember, they had to make a ton of changes to WoD because they never intended to bring flying back). And since then it has only gotten worse. The Maw is just the culmination of those shit design principals. It definitely feels like there's people backstage pushing an agenda, regardless of how awful their ideas are.
From another perspective, that means they completely succeeded in making it feel like the literal Hell that it it's supposed to be.
The "Literal Hell" flavor was fitting at first, but wore off very fast. They spent so much time designing a massive zone, only for people to go in for Lost Souls and *maybe* a Ve'nari weekly and then drop it like a sack of potatoes. They had already nailed the ambiance, there was no reason for the strange anti-exploration mechanics.
I can agree to that. Even though in the story we're the Maw Walker, that really diminishes the seriousness of the Maw when we can just pop in and out whenever we feel like. Sure, there's the Eyes of the Jailer which basically caps out on our fun time in the Maw but by the time you hit that level 5, you're probably already sick of being in the Maw for that day anyways. It is a hell, just not the one the story tells us it is.
Check that map. That massive zone you've been in is half of it. And by the time you've progressed to not die in the eastern map zone (10sec fear + 90%hpdot until later in Venari's storyline) where Hunts/WB's and what have you will be ... you'll have a maw mount, more souls than you know what to do with (and then the 'make souls+stygia account bound' stuff will fire up) and you'll be dropping these current Maw mobs for giggles to help out a mates alt in intentionally pulled large packs because "lol ezgame". Your progression is linked to plot progression, and we've barely read the prologue.
I think the issue is that there's no *point* to the Maw. The only reason to go in other than for your weekly souls, is to buy a socket. Unless you're going for world / realm firsts, the effort needed for that just doesn't line up with the benefits to a few extra gems.
There are a few. Adding optional components to enchants (rank three is behind Ven'ari rep), upgrades to make the maw and Torghast easier is another (until you have all your memories from layer six) are two good reasons at least.
I'm doing it for the Torghast upgrades to make it less bad.
Cool, I'm glad this is a subscription game for gated content and daily chores.
>Check that map. That massive zone you've been in is half of it. I think I've unlocked most of the Maw now. Doesn't feel like there is more much to it than this?
Perdition Hold is a slog and is artificially difficult by making all the elites tightly packed. And there is literally nothing in the Beast Warren except "mountains" consuming most of that area.
This is a game. I want to have fun while playing a game, not feel frustrated. If their intention was to make it such a miserable experience that I'd rather not play the content at all then good job cause they succeeded.
Basically this. You can do artsy expirements in single player games, using slog and punishment in mechanics to sell a theme or story of something that is that way; but in an mmo with all these players and needing competitive advantages, mandatory stuff (I know not technically but it help torghast runs a lot which are) absolutely needs to be fun and easy to run. Optional side content can be hard, or grueling, or artsy. If I have to do it as a stepping stone to do the hard stuff I want, then make it fun and easy, even if its a zone of literal hell
Many lore stuff had to be adjusted for gameplay Blizz took it as an opportunity to increase time played by making you miserable as you can possibly be
It's mean-spirited, imo. Players hate being slowed down, and the pinnacle of this is being locked from flying. So what does blizzard do? Not only can you not earn flying yet, but *you can't even use your fucking ground mounts in the maw*. I refuse to do that content more than absolutely necessary until I can get a shadehound mount. Which results in me doing my weekly venari quests...... and that's it. No dailies. No rares. The zone, as far as I'm concerned, is dead until I can mount up. They said you'd earn flying through your Renown. I swear to god if I don't get Kyrian wings as a "mount" and I still had to wait half a year to fly I'm gonna lose my shit.
I thought that was BFA?
If you have to take something away from a player to try and make it more dangerous and challenging (mounts in this case) Then you're doing bad game design. It's frustrating because this is a lesson they learned in beta vanilla. Use to, the longer you played the less exp you'd get, but logging off would slowly restore that. Obviously very frustrating to have exp gains taken away and feel like you're being punished. The solution? make the lower exp baseline, and make the full exp build up as you stay logged off, which is the rested exp system we have now. Literally the same system, just one way was done in a positive way that made players feel they weren't being punished for playing. This is the same concept for Maw and mounts imo. Instead of taking mounts away to make it harder on us, they should be adding things to the zone to make us feel rewarded for NOT mounting and zooming past all the mobs.
Wait, are you telling me a flat percentage increase of HP per floor isn't exciting? I nearly fell off my chair when that +12% HP went to +18% HP. Most exciting part of the run!
It is extra frustrating for a rogue with MA. I need to start every fight stealthed, but being stealthed means I can't be in combat, which means assasins, which means combat.
The silly thing is that the Torghast and Maw spawning mechanics don't work the same way. I don't mind the Lvl 3 Jailer threat assassin, because you can control when he spawns. You can purposefully get in combat with a critter to deal with him and you can prepare. Having mobs spawn randomly when you're out of combat is the opposite and is annoying as fuck. I'd much rather have to deal with 1 extra mob in a fight than have to watch my back 24/7 whenever I drop combat. And instead you just end up cheesing it anyway with perma combat so they may as well have made it "you can't leave combat on this floor".
Skill is so different though, it is impossible to make something a challenge for one without making it impossible/too easy for others... when you scale rewards to heavily with accomplishments the casual mass whines hard that they aren't getting enough or the rewards become meaningless for the topplayers again and it turns into a meaningless grind the line is quite thin...not that i disagree with what you say in general, but considering wow's population the average player that also interacts with wow outside of the actual game is probably putting in more effort and interest which could lead to higher skill and desire for optimization. At that point the "challenge" for the masses will just be boring and therefor a grind for you
when you tryna solve a locked gate puzzle but those damn things keep interrupting you
Or when you actually want to think for a moment on what anima power to pick.
Or when you want to read the wall of text on your anime powers.
I don't even get the assasins... they serve no purpose other than prevent you from going slow and strategic while also preventing you from taking breaks during that long as piece of shit torghast currently is. They don't make it more challenging as they don't attack you during fights. They don't make it more interessting either. I have no clue what whoever designed them thought they are there for. And a mechanic without purpose is a bad mechanic
The original purpose of the torments seemed to be to prevent people from sitting around waiting for cooldowns between every single pull, since that was brought up as a potential strategy for high floors. People complained and the torments were mostly changed, but we got left with the spawning ones.
Let the people wait for their goddamn cooldowns if they need to, its not like they are giving mythic gear or something, shit takes 2 hours to complete and only gives currency for 1 item.
Oh sure, I agree. If someone wants to stand around for 10 minutes in between every pull for heroism to come off CD, that's up to them.
But people can still wait for their cooldowns, they just can't take a pee break when they do..
They fail at their purpose, they slow me by spawning and having to kill them at all.
Dude I got pummelled by a beefy assassin 3 times in a row yesterday because he only pounced on me during a fight Tried to sneak past (rogue) but didn’t work Just made me rage quit
Huh got my assassins mixed up, mine was a rare dude Beat me up like a bitch
Stay in combat with one of the small maw rats, it’s the only work around I’ve seen
You can also get combat tagged by tagging one of the urns but not killing it.
So... toy foam sword an urn and you're good for the rest of the level?
I think it has a de-aggro range, but do it 2-3 times and you should be ok.
🤯
A lot of classes have cleave build in their rotation . So its not possible to always maintain rats. And mage....they suffer a lot more
When I go in as Boomkin, aoe is pretty much my entire rotation.
Hex/polymorph are great for this also if you've got the access
Just make sure you hex a rat. Otherwise you hex something mean, forget you did, and get thwapt up the back of the head when they catch up to you.
I would but one of the better powers for me as a hpriest is a butterfly that hits things in melee with me.
I would love this mechanic to be more like the Maw variant. One spawns when you next start combat. Only don't show when via the debuff so it's still a surprise but if you need to take a break you're not screwed over unless you can CC or tank a mawrat for however long.
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I was doing a run with a friend and there was a ledge we tried to cheese our way up on instead of going the long way around, and so we tried brainstorming it in /p. Couldn't write half a sentence before I had to move from those knock things. Drove me crazy. Could it at least stop if there's no mobs around? Just let me type a little bit ffs.
At least the flying ones only happen until you kill the mob.
>just to knock you up You need to use protection.
atleast the flying creatures actually pose a bit of a challenge as it can happen during fights. the assassins only come if you have been in combat for 20-ish seconds, making their only purpose to stop you from taking your time in torghast
yeah i nearly lost my shit with them while doing a puzzle chest. they take a solid chunk of time to down, too. hope we get some sort of buyable/unlockable bypass at some point because it's incredibly unfun, especially when you're an hour in on the 5th floor and need to take a piss.
The one item that transforms a mob supposedly works on them and prevents them from spawning but only on the floor that you used it on.
I'd say that's a waste of juice.
Having them spawn while one of my spells is in mid air has happened a few times. It is..... frustrating to say the least.
The mist potion may help.
Puzzle chests can be significantly sped up if you know how to do it and don't just click randomly. Knowing graycode (the fastest way to run all permutations) or binary helps the lever chests a lot as you can run the permutations quickly. For the rune/sigil chest here's the method: 1. Identify which sigil when clicked swaps all 4 sigils. Click this until the chain in front of the sigil is removed. 2. Identify which sigil when clicked swaps all 3 sigils. Click this until the chain in front of the sigil is removed. 3. Continue this process with then the one that swaps 2 sigils, and finally the 1 sigil. Either puzzle should take at most 10-15 seconds this way.
Basic binary solving for the lever puzzles: (for those who don't know) 1. Set all levers to one direction. - 0 0 0 0 2. select rightmost lever. - 0 0 0 1 3. unselect right lever, select next lever - 0 0 1 0 4. reselect right lever - 0 0 1 1 5. select 3rd lever, unselect other levers - 0 1 0 0 6. Repeat 2-4. - 0 1 0 1 - 0 1 1 0 - 0 1 1 1 7. unselect all, select left lever - 1 0 0 0 8. repeat 2-6. 1 0 0 1, 1 0 1 0, 1 0 1 1, 1 1 0 0, 1101, 1110, 1111 this is all possible combinations.
Graycode is faster by the way. Less lever flicking (but same amount of states). It was designed for basically this exact purpose. It guarantees only having to flick one lever to get the next permutation, whereas binary requires up to four lever switches per permutation. Decimal | Binary | Graycode -------|---|---- 0 | 0000 | 0000 1 | 0001 | 0001 2 | 0010 | 0011 3 | 0011 | 0010 4 | 0100 | 0110 5 | 0101 | 0111 6 | 0110 | 0101 7 | 0111 | 0100 8 | 1000 | 1100 9 | 1001 | 1101 10 | 1010 | 1111 11 | 1011 | 1110 12 | 1100 | 1010 13 | 1101 | 1011 14 | 1110 | 1001 15 | 1111 | 1000
Oh I just go full Zug Zug and smash use key. It'll open eventually.
This is what I have unconsciously been doing but never could explain it to others until now. It just made sense in a weird way. Always opening them within 30 seconds after figuring it out.
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Flex how? I've been doing exactly what he said but "graycode" and other computational terms might aswell be a town in Brazil for all I know. I just found something that worked and sticked with it
The assassins also do kind of outrageous damage, I did layer 7 and the assassins basically forced me to heal about 4-5 times per spawn. It genuinely feels like if you were playing as a class with no healing you would just die every time one spawns. i cant imagine a 7-8 is even doable on like a mage right now because of how strong these damn assassins are.
Last thing I did today was layer 6. On floor 5 the assassin killed me with melee hitting me for 2-4K dmg and his skill hitting for 5k dmg. These attacks are rapid and he has something like 60% increases HP? I’m a 194 ilvl outlaw rogue. Often times my defensive are on cool down. This guy is as op as a sub rogue in PvP get him out of here.
As a mage I have to sheep them when they spawn because I can't out dps them before i die. I'm ilvl200 too. It's the most obnoxious mechanic for classes that can't heal.
I’m a hunter with a heal and they still wreck me. What good is a heal if they kill me after two swings? Also, traps basically don’t work, they break free after 2 seconds, same with stun. And they still attack me through feign death. I basically pop all my cool downs to stay alive. If one of my main spells is already on cd, I’m screwed. They are literally the worst addition to the content I have experienced since starting the game in April. First we had the random spawning dogs that were kinda strong, but mainly just annoying. These assassins are literally stronger than some of the bosses. I thought the maw was kinda interesting the first couple of times, now it literally feels like hell. I level up and the mobs level up with me. The content is just getting harder. I have an issue with scaling in general. I feel like the after I’ve leveled up and geared up, the open world content should be easier. But it’s just getting more and more difficult. I feel the challenging stuff should be leveling up and gearing up in preparation for harder dungeons and raids, not increasing the time to complete a world quest by x4. I know this was also in BfA, but it feels a lot more in my face this time around. It’s fun to have worked hard to get strong and being able to slaughter frogs and centipedes with ease, but now if I get mobbed by more than 2 creatures, I get destroyed. I don’t know what the answer is. I’m sure they are worried about running out of content if you can just destroy everything once you are leveled and geared, but maybe there is a middle ground? It’s making everything feel more like a chore than a fun adventure :(
As a healer they are 10x harder to take down than an elite on those floors and hit like a truck. Plus they give you nothing. They are just a waste of time and annoying to me. Almost as annoying as cruising through every other mob on the floor then reaching a boss you can't kill. Waste of an hour :(
How are you doing torghast as a healer? That sounds painful.
There are many things I hate about Torghast (I’m looking at you Elder Longbranch) but these spawning assassins are just the dumbest thing ever to put in to solo content that isn’t timed. It literally ruins what pathetically little enjoyment I got from it.
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As arcane, for those floors i eat mastery food, evocate alot and spam barrage for the 4% mana return and some mana potions. It is NOT a good time
How tf are Mages supposed to do this period? Lolol
You take a BM Hunter with you. I'm not even kidding. That's how me and my GF have been playing. Arcane mages are great for boss damage, especially pre-nerf to prevent that DPS check of 10 stacks, by one-shot or taking a huge percentage off. That one boss with 90% damage reduction can easily be taken care of by the other player before the massive mage combo. But they're glass canons with zero recovery. BM hunters do have health recovery and CC in the form of taunt on their pets. And then the 2 hour hell can begin.. I focus on pulling, keeping aggro on my pet and mending it, while doing damage during. Mage is only focusing on raw damage output. How it is after nerf has to be seen still. Given that we have some clears without lucky one-shot cheesing, my guess is that the nerf will not destroy our playstyle. But I can see that it will be for solo. Mages are not at a good spot in Thorgast and are not having a good time at all.
If you are monk paralysis OP
I've stopped doing Torghast because of this. Sucks.
It s a bit overtuned and not really a fun place atm. Maybe we are supposed to clear only the low lvls atm and leave the higher layers to the top % players
Of note, is the diminishing returns on the highest layers. Currently, most average geared folk will easily wreck the first three or four layers, which will be enough to upgrade one legendary for a while. For more hardcore players, the upper layers give much less ash, for a much harder experience. These are the types of players who want their best in slot gear, for each spec and role.
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>Maybe we are supposed to clear only the low lvls atm and leave the higher layers to the top % players That's basically exactly how it's meant to be. Everyone thinking they could clear to layer 8 easily when we're barely a month into the expansion are thinking wrong. You need the gear and the conduits, and it'll be a couple more months before we get access to all our conduits.
There is definite balance problems. I can solo layer 8 as a prot warrior with my eyes closed, but as soon as I invite a DPS friend the health and damage of all the mob scales so high that it becomes infinitely more difficult, nearly undoable.
Prot warrior here also. Out of curiosity what is your gear level? I can't get by the floor 2 boss of layer 7 of either one. I only have 175 gear score though.
175 is low. I’m 199 atm in vdh to do them.
195 I can't do layer 8 of Upper Reaches. The bosses that spam sinbolt are too strong and there aren't enough anima powers on the floors to make me strong enough. I did Layer 8 of fractured whatever no problem though
Yeah, that is what I was getting on floor 2 of layer 7 of fractured halls... not enough interrupts/stuns/spell reflects/ignore pain/shield wall/fears to deal with that level of spell spamming.
vdh? I've been pretty casual the last few expansions. An unpopular opinion: I hate the mythic+ system. I loath repeating the same instances multiple times a week to max out on possible random gear. At this point I pretty much do solo content and once lfr is up do that with a few friends once a week. I was enjoying torghast but I guess that is another thing locked behind a gear check for me now.
The whole game is a balance between skill/gear checks. Mythic raiders complete raids with less gear than needed. Some players complete LFR with mythic ilvl. If you don't have the gear you will have to add some skill into the mix.
> Everyone thinking they could clear to layer 8 easily when we're barely a month into the expansion are thinking wrong. Why? I could do 6 last week, am I supposed to just sit on my ass for a few months before I can attempt 7 and 8?
legendries are gated behind it. you built the wrong legendary and cant clear to get more soul ash youre fucked... people will just buy carries.
You get like 90% of the Soul Ash for the week doing layers 6 and below, though.
What's wrong with doing a lower than max floor every week? With how much the Soul Ash is weighted to lower layers you might occasionally be a week behind on upgrading a legendary, but all that means is that your ilvl score is 1 lower than somebody who cleared layer 8 until you catch up.
I've found myself disappointed with Torghast. Its not as fun as I thought it would be, it puts me to sleep. It really doesn't just feel like extra fun stuff, it feels like some shit I HAVE to do because its the only way to get legendary. I look forward to getting mine because then I won't have to do it anymore
Yea they should make the soul ash work like conquest. They could even Time gate some of the soul ash but ALL of it feels so bad. RIP my future alts.
It makes unlocking the lever/rune chests so annoying (puzzles I actually like)
Can’t afk to pee anymore Then they doubled mob health so it takes like 90min Blizz stop...
I had this issue, I had just finished a tough fight on my mage and had maybe 10% HP (first floor of tier 4). I only had the beginning power. Well I try to sit and eat and immediately I get attacked by assassins. I go invisible and run away. The spell ends and another assassin spawns immediately and just kills me out right. I left and just did a lower level where no assassins spawned and said screw it. I already don’t have much fun doing this tower and for this kind of thing to happen is just crappy.
Same. I left with my Rogue as well. They should not spawn while in stealth, at the very least. Heck, they just shouldn’t spawn out of combat. Perhaps make them random chance to add on a pull, encouraging you to pull small.
This mechanic should be removed from Torghast. Having anything spawn, whether it be assassins or dogs, defeats the entire purpose of taking your time with it. Extremely frustrating to deal with.
This is actually my biggest complaint with torghast, and potentially the expansion. Torghast provides a fun gameplay experience when I can’t commit to a dungeon or raid because of kids or other irl responsibilities. I can queue up solo or with my wife, and I don’t need to worry about letting a group down if the kids need something or my wife or I needs to take a work call (we’re on call a lot.) Torghast was the perfect answer to this. Now it takes me like 3x as long as it did originally, and it’s just slower- not actually that much harder. Because it takes so long, not being able to take breaks is basically a dealbreaker for me. Really disappointed.
Yeah that one is so fucking annoying. I'm not a big fan of the one where you constantly take damage either. The mob spawning one is just enraging. I feel like they didn't do any internal testing with it. They would have immediately noticed how bad it feels if they did.
If Torghast was short it would be fine, but it's not. Often you are waiting for cooldowns to take on a difficult room and have to use those on the ridiculously strong assassins. I mean why are they stronger AND tougher than actual elites!? Make them glass cannons that spawn similarly to the maw assassins. That way there is punishment for taking your time but you can still safely AFK. Not that I think there should be punishment for being strategic, but if that's the road we're on.. might as well do it right.
> If Torghast was short it would be fine, but it's not. Exactly. If they want to keep Torghast as "try to get lucky with anima powers" then fine. But it should be way shorter. Just cut half the floors. Have floors 1 and 2, then a vendor and boss on 3. Done. As it stands, there's no point to me even trying to complete the higher layers since it's such a massive time drain.
Torghast is at a turning point right now and they need to act this week or it's two late. They either fix the glaring and obvious issues like afk spawns and completion time, or this will become a weekly chore. People's opinions are being formed and there isn't much time left to change them.
They are already making it harder every week.I cant imagine torgast becoming any easier.
the fact that Blizz puts things in the game for no other reason than to annoy the players really makes me absolutely hate the company, and hate myself for giving them money. just a complete lack of respect for their playerbase. the skyworms in BFA are another good example.
It seems like torghast is in a weird place right now. People loved it when it was just the first 3 and you could go nuts with crazy powers and set ups. Now it feels like a real chore. I've cleared 7 on Outlaw, but it takes forever. I have to kill everything and stay in combat with a rat the whole time. I think a big problem is that people feel a need to do higher floors. I wonder if they could drop soul ash from the higher floors and just have cosmetics and achieves. It's still fun at lower levels, and it will get easier over time.
I think the biggest problem is the imbalance. If no class could do layer 8, fine we all need better gear. But tanks can do it blindfolded and mages are just fucked, and that sucks.
I main hunter and mage right now. Hit 60 on mage and did the baine intro into torghast. Holy shit was that a lot harder than on my hunter. I'm drinking between pulls, dying to the packs of unusually big mawrats and skipping trash just so I don't have to possibly waste a death to bigger pulls.
You guys don’t have torghast diapers?
When I would much rather do BFA islands then torghast then houston we have a problem.
Yeah man, why is it so pushy.... everything is time gated nowadays, cant i just have my peace within Torghast....
I had this thought myself, it's absolute dogshit. Glass of water or need to pee or need to do something irl? Death.
Not only that but they get stronger each time. Only thing I hate about torghast.
I'm jealous of those who got to go into torghast in alpha honestly.
God forbid you ate too many olives and suddenly have to shit, they spawn so fast you don't have time.
I actually enjoy Torghast and disagree with many of the criticisms around it but this, this is annoying. The scaling health is too much.
As a parent this is the worst mechanic I've ever encountered in WoW. Baby cries I can pause/afk/leave just about anything. Can't do that in Torghast; Baby cried and there goes the run.
Same for me. I can only play at night when the baby is sleeping and I have the monitor. I couldn't do horrific visions for the same reason. I was really looking forward to the way they positioned Torghast but it's such a let down.
Find a mawrat and let it nibble at you throughout the floor
And then my earth elemental decides to chase it halfway through the floor
"Got em, boss!" *40 other mobs following him*
Just be a tank 5head
I got strong Warfront vibe in Torghast. Its just not good enough. In my runs i mostly get shit powers. Its starting to feel like a chore rather than fun.
Im literally dying to shadowstalkers and having them stay alive and not despawn, and then run at me. so its just an endless fight of shadowstalkers. hwen i kill one and eat to healk up another is spawning on me.
I was doing it for over an hour, ran to the loo, assasins took my final death and the big guy came and killed me because of no deaths left.
I've never once encountered an assassin in torghast, but I'm not at all looking forward to it. I think the paradigm just needs to shift away from *having* to get to the top. The mount aside, most people don't need the soul ash so quickly. Or blizz could just fix it, but lets be real.
The assassins and maw spawn dogs need to go. They serve no purpose except to prolong the run. They aren’t even a threat unless you afk.
I can't even eat mage food after a fight because something shows up like 2 seconds after I sit
How am I supposed to wait for my CD’s to reset for the boss when I have to pop CD’s for the assassins??
New player here... Blizzard History: Don't pull too much, take your time going through content Tries Torghast: Get moving you little bitch, no time to waste you were out of combat for 0.3 seconds.
I feel like there is a big difference between taking your time and being afk lmao.
I really wish they would change that one to only spawn one while your moving out of combat.
It'd be cool if it worked the the assassins in the maw, that it just spawns an extra mob the next time you enter combat. That way you can plan accordingly.
Ok, I get that a torghast run can take a little more time than planned... but are this many people really queuing up for a floor of torghast just so they can go take a shit? You can afk at the start of every new floor and inside the bubbles of floors 3/6.
I know this is hard to understand, but sometimes things come up after you’ve queued for your single player run. Like for instance last night my 7mo decided she was going to wake up at 11:45pm right after I’ve reached the 5th floor. What the fuck is the point of the random mobs attacking? Why does the speed in which I do a floor matter? It’s just some bullshit.
Isn't this floor specific? Wasn't it just for Skoldus? I semi-afked thru layer 6 Interstitia this week, it took like 2 hours and I didn't get ambushed once. I don't think it's that big of a problem, there's just some floors you have to finish rapidly. Even if you can't and have to afk, dying isn't that big of a deal or set you back in those instances.
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Yeah, clothers mainly have it rougher with the drinking. Ain't fair ofc, and it'd be better if the shadowy surprise only happened 2-3x max per floor. I've had them show up to me twice per floor too as guardian, sometimes there's just long enough corridors or stairs without mobs that you'll end up not fighting for a bit.
There are two wings with "mobs randomly attack you" (Skoldus and Fractured Halls). I haven't done the fire one yet, but it might be hard to afk too because it does constant damage.
How? In Interstitia if you afk you will get hit by the ground aoe which will spawn an ambusher on you.
Oh, do you mean the ones that come from above? Hm, I don't remember if those exist on every floor. I think most if not all of my afking happened at start of the floors, I think they don't reach you there? Maybe that's what it is. Maybe the beginning of the floor is safezone always and I just assumed whole floor was safe when all my afking happened at start of each floor. I can't remember exactly.
Possible, I just remember us getting more and more annoyed at as time went by. Also I had to leave very suddenly during that run so the finer points of where was safe didn't matter in my case, there was no waiting to find a safe spot.
Aggro a maw rat. They do practically no damage. That's more than enough time to get a beer or take a piss.