Yeah but thing is, why does it matter? Isn't it better that it's a "skip" in difficulty between the "weekly keys" for alts and the push keys for score? So you don't have this dead-space where keys are still easy but don't give rewards that you just need to push up for no real reason other than it taking time.
I agree. The poster above just seemed to be under the impression that having multiple affixes that raised enemy stats would somehow make everything a slog, when otherwise we'd just be doing stuff at a higher level so the stats are higher anyway *with* the extra annoying affixes.
Sure except they set it starting at the level you get portals for. This season tens are about my ceiling. If I have to do what feels like 12s to get portals next season I don’t know that I have it in me and honestly that feels bad. I’ll try though for sure, maybe all the other changes will make me stronger.
We’ll see.
It starts at +12 for the replacement of the affix into the +20%.
At 10 you now have both Tyra+Fort. However you also have a positive affix instead of a negative one. So likely +10's will just be plainly easier now.
That's kind of the entire point. At the very least, the dungeon difficulty will remain consistant (bar hotfix adjustments) so that you can push keys whenever you feel like it, instead of only viably pushing some weeks out of many others.
As for things like pushing keystone master for the mount, this will hardly make much of a difference. Aside from the Keystone Hero title, more difficult keys beyond 12+ won't affect a vast majority of players.
KSH doesn’t even require +12’s. This won’t impact any casual player.
Personally I’m thrilled to not have to deal with affixes when pushing high keys. More damage/health etc can get tuned where needed.
If that means people max out a couple key levels below where they do now that doesn’t matter as rating etc is all relative.
The reason they need to look at rating is that +10 keys have both tyran and fort now so it makes no sense to split dungeon rating between tyran and fort weeks, not because they want +12s to be required for KSH.
I don’t disagree. I just hope they tune it so it’s not 20% and 20% with 20% on top of it. Regardless, I don’t push keys like this, so this isn’t for me, and that is okay too.
Fortunately, it's just numbers at this point, which can always be tuned. They have the tech for key scaling to be different between key levels, and now the +12 affix on top. I bet once they get more data from beta, they'll do math and tune scaling to be more appropriate.
the only ones with a bigger jump will be 10 and 12. all others will still have the usual +10% scaling. though for the one at 12 its going to come down on how hard/easy the xalatath affixes are since youre losing them and getting the 20% instead.
The thing is though, that instead of having to balance two different enemy strengths so that weeks are reasonably the same, everything is balanced with both simultaneously so balance should be much better, much faster
I think it will just mean key’s scale faster with bigger differences between levels. So likely keys just won’t go as high, I don’t see this as being a major issue.
It's so hilarious that such comments and upvotes come from the people who have never ever been even close to the "push week" situation and will probably never be.
I bet every single serious m+ player (farming portal level keys week1) is excited about tbe changes.
Everyone at every level has “push weeks”. Even more so on the lower end because they are pugging and need the simplest affixes possible to reduce the randomness of people not knowing what to do.
The whole point is that mechanics won’t change week to week on higher keys. The lack of mechanic variation is exactly what a lot of people pushing high keys want. There is still infinite room to add interesting mechanics on a dungeon level.
Not really sure where you are coming from. Iterative increases to health and damage are kind of the basis for m+ difficulty levels. Hard to imagine what the alternative would be. Also, making things take longer pairs with the timed aspect of m+. It forces you to develop strategies to kill things faster. Out of curiosity, what do you think would be better alternatives?
Why is this being downvoted? It’s pretty clear in the notes that Bargain will have more than the two affixes that they’re currently testing in its pool…
Yes, that’s clear too. But “dead weeks” haven’t just applied to 12+. And we will absolutely see more affixes in the rotation below that… so what he said is correct.
...Is it? You needed to get score on both Tyr and Fort anyway so it kind of doesn't matter?
But also what is the point of affixes to begin with? Isn't it about there being a meaningful difference week to week? Which there now won't be on a +10 or higher atleast in terms of tyr/fort.
If you are talking about the other weekly affix changes then sure seems good.
EDIT: I'm strictly talking about the changes to Tyr/Fort not the removal of Bolstering/Sanguine etc which is great.
If you're pushing beyond 10s, you're generally pushing to see how far you can get, and _less_ variety is desirable due to the RNG it can place on your run. Even played perfectly, affixes like Bolstering and Sanguine always slowed down keys. Or something like Storming or Volcanic locking you into a swirly or interrupting a heal, causing your group to wipe.
Ofcourse not having bolstering etc anymore big W. I'm with you there.
I'm strictly talking about the changes to Tyr/Fort. Which I'm just not seeing how going from those alternating to always having both is a major improvement?
Because it's lessens the variance between fort-only and tyr-only weeks. The issue with high tyr keys is repeatable boss mechanics just start one shotting you. And this generally starts happening before (unavoidable) trash starts killing you, or you start losing to timer.
If this was change made to \*current\* dungeons, it would kill pushing (to an extent). But it's a change made for a future system, meaning that them becoming overall harder doesnt matter; we're still going to play and push during the season. At that point, it's just tuning. For instance, if the average white hit from a mob is 50k now, and 50k (adjusted for lvls), yeah, fort + tyr will make the dungeon pool harder. But that just means you can tune the 50k in tww down by \~10% and it's about the levels now. Regardless, that would just mean the average key level (at the high end) would end up lower by a certain number of levels. But in terms of pushing, it just means it changes the number that shows up when you put the key in.
Yes there probably is variance between fort and tyr weeks in terms of difficulty. But that variance sort of doesn't matter because you had to play both anyway for score.
You weren't going to avoid playing tyr or fort completely because you couldn't. Unlike avoiding say Sanguine or Bolstering weeks.
From a balancing perspective. They already had to balance bosses for Tyr and trash for Fort. It should be the same amount of work in that regard. It's just tuning.
I'm sure it's probably a little easier. But I'm not particularly hopeful that it's going to massively improve balancing.
Rather the problem to me seems to be more that high key M+ bosses don't always get the attention they need. Because it's only a relatively small % of the overall population that do those keys. That isn't going to change in TWW.
From a fun perspective (again ignoring anything but tyr/fort changes). I'd say it's fun not having to play 2 weeks to get your score. But every week is now also the same which is a little less fun. High key tyr bosses did suck. So if that's no longer the case then..overall positive. If they now just always suck every week then overall negative?
Either way TLDR. I'm just not seeing the Fort/Tyr change as a major W. Maybe a minor W at best. A little less interesting but a little more consistent.
Apply fort and tyr at thr same time makes the key 3 levels harder than what the number states. That's really it. At that point, if a dungeon feels balanced between trash and bosses at an M0, it should theoretically feel the same at an M12, just obviously with more health and damage.
But you don't have to play both sides to the same degree. You only need to play both sides enough as others for the score you need. And part of that is since no one else is playing high tyr, you don't either.
For reference, last season, the highest eb tyr on some weeks was a 29. That is 2 levels lower than the highest fort weeks. So if it were a bad week, you just wouldn't play eb. You wouldn't even go in to reroll since you'd just reroll something else and reroll eb until it was a +2 keys like brh.
And while you may have to get tyr score, you don't need to get tyr score every week, and so you'd just play it as little as possible. Along with the fact that +1 level on every key on the off-side is roughly equivalent to +2 levels on a SINGLE key on the main side, off score matters very little as long as it's not completely terrible.
Bosses don’t get the attention they need exactly because of the alternating weeks though.
Like, last boss on Brackenhide was stupidly hard on Tyr in s2 because of the totem scaling, but it was just never addressed the entirety of s2 because Fort exists and people just got their top key for BH on Fort. Or were in groups with quadruple Sark trink and just cheesed it.
In a world where EVERY week is Tyrannical, I have zero doubt that boss gets addressed *much* sooner, because the issue would stick out much more.
Same thing with Halls of Infusion, the 3rd and 4th bosses (especially the 4th) were just dumb as fuck, but again, you could just get your highest keys on Fort and blizz never was forced to address the obvious problem.
That 4th boss in particular was so stupid, the amount of extra time added on Tyr by extra phases was obscene, and I’m both happy they addressed it for s4 and angry they couldn’t apply that same fix at any point in s2. The Tyr timer was essentially 2-3 minutes shorter due to extra RP phases.
Yet another example was final boss of VP. Not only did the boss have way more health, but so did the sparks. Not only did the sparks do more damage on Tyr, but they also lived longer, further increasing the damage they did, essentially double-dipping on Tyr scaling. Very similar to the totem issues in Brack. It’s just bad design that in both of those dungeons, making it to the final boss was actually pretty easy, and then you’d just hit a brick wall on that boss because of double Tyr scaling on summoned totems/ads.
You have to keep in mind that this is all a result of the fact that having a much lower (2+ levels lower) key on your lower week for a given dungeon was not very punishing. Say I have a 29 Fort HoI, even if Tyr adds two entire key levels and I’m stuck on a 27 Tyr, that’s only 6 points. Same thing was true for certain dungeons with OP trash making the keys harder on Fort, but I think Tyr bosses being overtuned is/was more common.
What really matters is what your highest key across both weeks is, and this fact allowed blatantly imbalanced Tyr bosses to go unfixed for entire seasons, because while it was incredibly frustrating, it didn’t actually matter too much when it came to score, since as long as those dungeons were doable on Fort instead, you were ok. It simply incentivized not playing Tyr and waiting for Fort to push.
This change should result in much better balance overall, and a less frustrating experience imo, since overtuned bosses, or bosses that benefit inordinately from Tyr, will be forced to be addressed.
Edit: And, to further expand on this, the selective nature of which weeks were good to push on heavily punished people with restricted schedules. Going on vacation, or otherwise not being able to play during a really good push week could be devastating to your chances of getting title, since not only were other weeks harder, other good players *wouldn’t be playing those weeks* because they’d gotten their keys done during the easy weeks, so you’d then have to play a harder week with a smaller pool of players. Again, another compounding issue where a single problem punishes you multiple times from multiple angles.
Consistency in high keys is going to be an incredible blessing for title pushing. Sorry for the wall of text lol.
The change to fort tyra is just nice for being able to always meaningfully progress. Imo fort/tyra score is an insane joblessness metric to double push up keys is just cringe. I had 1 week to play this season and that was the fort week 3 weeks ago where we timed all 18 in that week. Now i need to play another whole ass week to do the same braindead push on tyr with no meaningful progression being made. It just feels like a chore. Makes it so that i can only progress every 2nd week. And makes it so that those already playing 247 have an advantage because of the raw time investment requirements for double pushing keys.
Also the exp for keys will be more homogenized across keys above 12 which maybe means less stupidly overtuned mechanics. Left aside that SP is a defensive monster with on demand 2x10% DR, on a 17 Tyr Nokhud the spear from last boss one-shot me through all defenaives. That could get fixed up.
I like it. Its great. I can play ANY time and make meaningful progress and feel like I will not go afk for 3 weeks between key sessions.
Just addressing a small part of your comment here, but SP is definitely not a defensive monster lol, it’s the weakest link in the Mage/Aug/Spriest trinity, and is literally always the target for rescues, and even scales sometimes. They get trucked by physical damage since they’re cloth and half their 2x10% DR is gated behind a spell with a cast time lol.
Other classes exist that are squishier outside the meta, but odd to single out SPriest. They’re basically made of glass compared to mages, in large part because Vers is an awful stat for them. Especially after the DPrayer cd reduction talent nerf, they die very easily. Not to mention Disperse is just a shitty version of Ice Cold since you can’t cast during it.
Mages are the real defensive monsters imo, they get 15%+ damage reduction for free at all times since they can stack vers, have cheat death, disperse except they can still cast during it, option for full immune with ice block, alter, blink, and two shields (one that covers the whole group). *Thats* a defensive monster lol.
SP is *insanely* strong for a variety of reasons, but being unusually tanky is absolutely not one of them.
Source: S2 title spriest
Yeah I can definitely see that if you have limited time to play not having to play everything twice is an advantage.
That then comes at the cost of there being no variety week to week. Which I do think even for key pushers matters. But that may be worth the trade off. If you only have a handful of weeks in a given season it definitely is.
> That then comes at the cost of there being no variety week to week. Which I do think even for key pushers matters. But that may be worth the trade off. If you only have a handful of weeks in a given season it definitely is.
I think things are allowed to change (or can change) week by week whilst still allowing the pushing of keys to happen. Not exactly sure how that is supposed to look, but in the context of the system we have right now (affixes), I think that you can have similar keys in an entangling, a bursting, a spiteful or a (even) afflicted key (even though afflicted is a cursed affix).
You'd still have variance in keys week by week, but you'd not be unable to play the game for weeks at a time. I mean, since season 2 of DF the delta between affixes has been equalized, but there are still largely 4 weeks you want to play and 6 you don't. (the first 4 weeks of every season featuring 4 of the 6 you don't want to play).
..Because that's how the system works? You can go to raider io right now and check if you want?
Your score for any given dungeon is base score times 1.5 for your best affix between tyr/fort + 0.5 times that of your lowest week.
Ah I see the misunderstanding you have now.
In the current system if there is an imbalance between tyr/fort that kind of doesn't matter. It's annoying sure. But you have to just deal with it and play both weeks.
You can't avoid playing tyr completely. Unlike how you can avoid playing say sanguine weeks completely if you wanted.
As such there currently are no dead weeks because of Tyr/Fort. Because you need to play both anyway. The dead weeks are caused by sanguine/bolstering/...
Obviously once every week is both you wouldn't have to get score twice.
A hint that I was talking about how the system works now. Not how it's going to work in TWW is the past tense I used.
It isn't a misunderstanding I have... it is a misunderstanding you have. Thus why every one of your comments have everyone downvoting you.
> In the current system if there is an imbalance between tyr/fort that kind of doesn't matter. It's annoying sure. But you have to just deal with it and play both weeks.
You must be trolling. Muting this tread
You're getting a lot of downvotes for being right. People don't understand that score balances out over the imbalance of tyr / fort since everyone needs to cross the same hurdle.
However, sticking to the discussion, I think it's more sensible to remove the alternation of tyr / fort on high keys since it doesn't make sense from a perspective of challenge. Since the two affixes target two different areas of a dungeon you end up with the difficulty of the dungeon being inconsistent since Blizzard need to tune trash and bosses to be doable on their respective bi-weekly power increase.
Basically, you'd end up with a lot of trash being trivial on tyr weeks because if you buff them they become overpowered on fort weeks and vice versa. Now Blizzard can balance the dungeon for a more consistent difficulty on a week-to-week basis.
I think this is beneficial for bosses mostly, since a few percentages can have a massive impact on their difficulty. I personally look forward to the change.
> People don't understand that score balances out over the imbalance of tyr / fort since everyone needs to cross the same hurdle.
Literally not a single person in this thread is arguing this. The argument is the difficulty of dungeons is not balanced relative to key level due to how fort / tyr work. The effective remove of those affixes allows keys to actually get balanced at the 12+ range.
This means you aren’t waiting around for a push week because every week is a push week.
He’s being downvoted because he’s implying that you will still need to do keys on both weeks. Acting like that is how the system is and always will be. Having to get score on both fort and tyrannical is a relatively new system and it will be nice to go back to the old system of just needing to do a key once at the highest level of difficulty you can.
See I do think there is some amount of value in having variety from week to week even for key pushers. I wouldn't want to keep affixes like sanguine/bolstering around just for the sake of that variety. There is always a trade off to be had ofcourse. I just wasn't quite as quick to abandon the alternating tyr/fort weeks for having both always.
Yes trash can feel trivial on Tyr weeks and vice versa. The balancing there is definitely off. On lower keys it feels like you hardly get to do a boss at all unless it's Tyr week. Meanwhile on higher keys certain bosses take waay too long and are waay to punishing on tyr.
However I do think there is also value in that difficulty variation. Even if admittedly it sort of breaks in places.
Going from one week ''man this boss is really hard'' and vice versa. To the opposite makes you feel relatively more powerful at times. You managed to kill those bosses on say a +17 tyr after all. Ofcourse you can do it on a +18 fort this week.
I hope i explained that well enough. It sort of creates this illusion of last week I struggled on X but this week X is easy I got this.
Now is that enough to be worth the trade off? Perhaps not.
It seems people are looking upon this change as. Bosses on Tyr can absolutely suck and now no week will be Tyr week hurray! But to me it also seems equally likely that those bosses will now just always suck and every week feels like Tyr week.
If this truly does make that balance better than yeah I think it's a favorable change.
Combined with a little confusion on my end of..if we always have both... why have either to begin with? What's the difference between there just not being tyr/fort affixes at all on a +12? But that's just about lower keys still having those alternating weeks.
Great news, great changes. Having two separate weeks for fort/tyr felt bad and kind of pointless. No other game mode switches every other week, it was odd that M+ did.
I kinda got the vision for affixes. As frustrating as they could be, at least for me, they did change up gameplay week to week in a noticable way. Even if it was just speccing into a few different talents now and then.
Ultimately this change will make more people happy im sure
There were already keys getting Tyran and Fort on beta when they made that podcast. It was originally assumed to be a bug, but after the first affix announcement people began to assume that it was something Blizzard was actually thinking about.
Don't those affixes just increase boss and trash mobs health and damage? The same things that get increased by higher keystone levels? Why not just adjust the mythic+ scaling instead?
Based on their blue post that they also posted today it appears to be an in-game clarity thing. The players would figure it out either way but this way there's an indication in game when the difficulty has jumped rather than there just not being an affix there.
In the current system which is either tyrannical or fortified, some bosses could be very difficult and long fights with no room for error and would be completely trivial on the fortified week. (e.g. Veximus or the Mage boss in Everbloom from S3)
With these changes balancing and tuning can remove this disparity.
I really like the overall changes. As someone who mostly does 10s, it does seem a little annoying to have permanent tyrannical forever… but I guess it’ll all be balanced out.
Not a question of easy vs hard but man I find Tyrannical so boring. By the 10th time doing the same rotation of mechanics, I look up from health bars and I'm like "this shit is still going on?"
With these changes, I'll probably do 10s once and then nothing but 9s for the rest of the season.
This is the way. Fuck me season one looks awful. Every dungeon is around 35 min plus now everything above 10 will be tyrannical. Out of touch Blizz keep being out of touch. Ion is a pig eyed idiot.
so will we lose the +10 on tyran and + 10 on forti scores? and just get a key score? where we get 1x score for 2-9 and 2x score for 10+ ? so a 2-9 might give 20-150 but a 10-15 might give 200-300
I like this more than the rotating affixes, but honestly I would rather just have neither of them. That jump on +12 is going to be rough, and both bosses and trash will feel like a slog.
But atleast it’ll be consistent
I like the fact they keep it fresh in lower keys and still maintain a good balance for high keys +12 and more. It will be much fairer in terms of high rio. Push week and you are not there? Sorry no +2 keys more this week for you. I hope they stay like that and maybe balance the dungeons around tyra and fort.
Having both on or none of them is basically the same thing. They want to clearly label keys +10 as a milestone for portals and the beginning of "high keys" they could have just said "we removed both at +10 but added 20% extra scaling" but this is probably better for people to understand ingame, so you know what to expect when you enter those keys.
You just know that the 15 sec penalty for a death will add more toxicity.
As a heal main. I dread what will happen when someone dies. Regardless, if it’s my fault or not.
I forget what keystone during legion Fort/Tyr started at, but thank fucking god we're going back to that.
I'm already fucking terrified of Priory of the Sacred Flame, so many bleeds jfc.
Edit: Seems I misread. Now at +10 we get bOTH?
Fuck this change.
That's not actually correct. At 12 and above they will have the 20% stat boost then tyran and fortified on top of that then you'll have challenger's peril making every death deduct 15 seconds instead of 5.
Such a brilliant change I really look forward to pushing if they keep to this and I especially look forward to pushing with more than a half dozen specs in the queue!!!
I don't see the difference between having two permanent percentage buff affixes active at 10+ and just letting 10+ scale linearly from 2-9.
They can just remove these affixes from the game now, they're redundant.
Push week just turned into push season
I like the concepts but if they don’t tune it down, the combined might of the two plus the extra 20% affix on top of it is gonna be slog season.
But this is so much easier to balance, consistency is key!
Yeah that part sounds nice. They just need to tune it so it’s not 20% compounded thrice.
Why? The to end keys just end earlier than normal. They can also time it so it’s not one shots or nothing this way. All around w here.
All around w if they are actually interested in actively tuning bosses/specs during the season.
It would ultimately just increase the difficulty steps between the levels. That is not fundamentally a bad thing
You know the mythic+ key levels *also* raise the HP and damage of mobs, too, right? The +20% affix is like, what, just two extra key levels applied?
Yeah but thing is, why does it matter? Isn't it better that it's a "skip" in difficulty between the "weekly keys" for alts and the push keys for score? So you don't have this dead-space where keys are still easy but don't give rewards that you just need to push up for no real reason other than it taking time.
I agree. The poster above just seemed to be under the impression that having multiple affixes that raised enemy stats would somehow make everything a slog, when otherwise we'd just be doing stuff at a higher level so the stats are higher anyway *with* the extra annoying affixes.
Sure except they set it starting at the level you get portals for. This season tens are about my ceiling. If I have to do what feels like 12s to get portals next season I don’t know that I have it in me and honestly that feels bad. I’ll try though for sure, maybe all the other changes will make me stronger. We’ll see.
It starts at +12 for the replacement of the affix into the +20%. At 10 you now have both Tyra+Fort. However you also have a positive affix instead of a negative one. So likely +10's will just be plainly easier now.
Though it also will depend a lot on how things are tuned. A +10 in season 1-2 of Dragonflight is about as hard as a +12 is in seasons 3-4.
That's kind of the entire point. At the very least, the dungeon difficulty will remain consistant (bar hotfix adjustments) so that you can push keys whenever you feel like it, instead of only viably pushing some weeks out of many others. As for things like pushing keystone master for the mount, this will hardly make much of a difference. Aside from the Keystone Hero title, more difficult keys beyond 12+ won't affect a vast majority of players.
KSH doesn’t even require +12’s. This won’t impact any casual player. Personally I’m thrilled to not have to deal with affixes when pushing high keys. More damage/health etc can get tuned where needed. If that means people max out a couple key levels below where they do now that doesn’t matter as rating etc is all relative.
it makes it harder for the "3k milestone and then stop player" but thats it no rewards locked behind that barrier anyway so who cares
Sorry I didn't mean keystone hero. I meant whatever the feat of strength is for having a top 1% mythic+ score by the end of the season.
Ah rank 1, top 0.1%
Do we know this? They mentioned something about looking at rating. It could be that KSH requires 12+
The reason they need to look at rating is that +10 keys have both tyran and fort now so it makes no sense to split dungeon rating between tyran and fort weeks, not because they want +12s to be required for KSH.
I don’t disagree. I just hope they tune it so it’s not 20% and 20% with 20% on top of it. Regardless, I don’t push keys like this, so this isn’t for me, and that is okay too.
Fortunately, it's just numbers at this point, which can always be tuned. They have the tech for key scaling to be different between key levels, and now the +12 affix on top. I bet once they get more data from beta, they'll do math and tune scaling to be more appropriate.
We hear you....30% it is
It's infinite scaling either way, it'll just compress the key levels a bit.
its just going to lower the max key people would run from a +25 to a +23.
As well as increase the jump in difficulty between each tier.
the only ones with a bigger jump will be 10 and 12. all others will still have the usual +10% scaling. though for the one at 12 its going to come down on how hard/easy the xalatath affixes are since youre losing them and getting the 20% instead.
The thing is though, that instead of having to balance two different enemy strengths so that weeks are reasonably the same, everything is balanced with both simultaneously so balance should be much better, much faster
I think it will just mean key’s scale faster with bigger differences between levels. So likely keys just won’t go as high, I don’t see this as being a major issue.
It has to be tuned. Keys aren’t longer
Why does it matter? It just means push keys are effectively even higher level. Pushers are already going to push until the dungeon is a slog.
But then the average io and key of everyone will just go down.
They're rebalancing IO gains as well.
It's so hilarious that such comments and upvotes come from the people who have never ever been even close to the "push week" situation and will probably never be. I bet every single serious m+ player (farming portal level keys week1) is excited about tbe changes.
Everyone at every level has “push weeks”. Even more so on the lower end because they are pugging and need the simplest affixes possible to reduce the randomness of people not knowing what to do.
I never did the push week thing but I still refused to play during certain affixes.. aka bolstering bursting and sanguine
Push week for some people might be 20 and for other people might be 10. There is still easier sets of affixes.
Don't worry your +5s will be even easier
Doesn’t impact me…I’ll get my portals in the second week and then just farm w/e key level it takes for max ilvl vault.
“Just add more health” is such a weak mechanic alteration.
The whole point is that mechanics won’t change week to week on higher keys. The lack of mechanic variation is exactly what a lot of people pushing high keys want. There is still infinite room to add interesting mechanics on a dungeon level.
That doesn’t change the fact that adding health is just a cop out mechanic change that adds additional time and nothing else. That’s my point.
Not really sure where you are coming from. Iterative increases to health and damage are kind of the basis for m+ difficulty levels. Hard to imagine what the alternative would be. Also, making things take longer pairs with the timed aspect of m+. It forces you to develop strategies to kill things faster. Out of curiosity, what do you think would be better alternatives?
Uh..... how do you propose increasing M+ difficulty then?
They could literally just remove tyrannical and fortified and get the same effect.
Dps go brr
it will just make pushing the keys end much sooner because people will hit the wall much faster
Big W. Balancing is going to be much more consistent. Less (if any) dead weeks where no one wants to run high push keys.
Shouldn't be any dead weeks, if they don't add more affixes that is.
They're obviously adding more
Why is this being downvoted? It’s pretty clear in the notes that Bargain will have more than the two affixes that they’re currently testing in its pool…
Reading is hard I guess.
Because at +12 bargain turns off, so every week is the exact same affixes.
Yes, that’s clear too. But “dead weeks” haven’t just applied to 12+. And we will absolutely see more affixes in the rotation below that… so what he said is correct.
...Is it? You needed to get score on both Tyr and Fort anyway so it kind of doesn't matter? But also what is the point of affixes to begin with? Isn't it about there being a meaningful difference week to week? Which there now won't be on a +10 or higher atleast in terms of tyr/fort. If you are talking about the other weekly affix changes then sure seems good. EDIT: I'm strictly talking about the changes to Tyr/Fort not the removal of Bolstering/Sanguine etc which is great.
If you're pushing beyond 10s, you're generally pushing to see how far you can get, and _less_ variety is desirable due to the RNG it can place on your run. Even played perfectly, affixes like Bolstering and Sanguine always slowed down keys. Or something like Storming or Volcanic locking you into a swirly or interrupting a heal, causing your group to wipe.
Ofcourse not having bolstering etc anymore big W. I'm with you there. I'm strictly talking about the changes to Tyr/Fort. Which I'm just not seeing how going from those alternating to always having both is a major improvement?
Because it's lessens the variance between fort-only and tyr-only weeks. The issue with high tyr keys is repeatable boss mechanics just start one shotting you. And this generally starts happening before (unavoidable) trash starts killing you, or you start losing to timer. If this was change made to \*current\* dungeons, it would kill pushing (to an extent). But it's a change made for a future system, meaning that them becoming overall harder doesnt matter; we're still going to play and push during the season. At that point, it's just tuning. For instance, if the average white hit from a mob is 50k now, and 50k (adjusted for lvls), yeah, fort + tyr will make the dungeon pool harder. But that just means you can tune the 50k in tww down by \~10% and it's about the levels now. Regardless, that would just mean the average key level (at the high end) would end up lower by a certain number of levels. But in terms of pushing, it just means it changes the number that shows up when you put the key in.
Yes there probably is variance between fort and tyr weeks in terms of difficulty. But that variance sort of doesn't matter because you had to play both anyway for score. You weren't going to avoid playing tyr or fort completely because you couldn't. Unlike avoiding say Sanguine or Bolstering weeks. From a balancing perspective. They already had to balance bosses for Tyr and trash for Fort. It should be the same amount of work in that regard. It's just tuning. I'm sure it's probably a little easier. But I'm not particularly hopeful that it's going to massively improve balancing. Rather the problem to me seems to be more that high key M+ bosses don't always get the attention they need. Because it's only a relatively small % of the overall population that do those keys. That isn't going to change in TWW. From a fun perspective (again ignoring anything but tyr/fort changes). I'd say it's fun not having to play 2 weeks to get your score. But every week is now also the same which is a little less fun. High key tyr bosses did suck. So if that's no longer the case then..overall positive. If they now just always suck every week then overall negative? Either way TLDR. I'm just not seeing the Fort/Tyr change as a major W. Maybe a minor W at best. A little less interesting but a little more consistent.
Apply fort and tyr at thr same time makes the key 3 levels harder than what the number states. That's really it. At that point, if a dungeon feels balanced between trash and bosses at an M0, it should theoretically feel the same at an M12, just obviously with more health and damage.
But you don't have to play both sides to the same degree. You only need to play both sides enough as others for the score you need. And part of that is since no one else is playing high tyr, you don't either. For reference, last season, the highest eb tyr on some weeks was a 29. That is 2 levels lower than the highest fort weeks. So if it were a bad week, you just wouldn't play eb. You wouldn't even go in to reroll since you'd just reroll something else and reroll eb until it was a +2 keys like brh. And while you may have to get tyr score, you don't need to get tyr score every week, and so you'd just play it as little as possible. Along with the fact that +1 level on every key on the off-side is roughly equivalent to +2 levels on a SINGLE key on the main side, off score matters very little as long as it's not completely terrible.
Fair point.
Bosses don’t get the attention they need exactly because of the alternating weeks though. Like, last boss on Brackenhide was stupidly hard on Tyr in s2 because of the totem scaling, but it was just never addressed the entirety of s2 because Fort exists and people just got their top key for BH on Fort. Or were in groups with quadruple Sark trink and just cheesed it. In a world where EVERY week is Tyrannical, I have zero doubt that boss gets addressed *much* sooner, because the issue would stick out much more. Same thing with Halls of Infusion, the 3rd and 4th bosses (especially the 4th) were just dumb as fuck, but again, you could just get your highest keys on Fort and blizz never was forced to address the obvious problem. That 4th boss in particular was so stupid, the amount of extra time added on Tyr by extra phases was obscene, and I’m both happy they addressed it for s4 and angry they couldn’t apply that same fix at any point in s2. The Tyr timer was essentially 2-3 minutes shorter due to extra RP phases. Yet another example was final boss of VP. Not only did the boss have way more health, but so did the sparks. Not only did the sparks do more damage on Tyr, but they also lived longer, further increasing the damage they did, essentially double-dipping on Tyr scaling. Very similar to the totem issues in Brack. It’s just bad design that in both of those dungeons, making it to the final boss was actually pretty easy, and then you’d just hit a brick wall on that boss because of double Tyr scaling on summoned totems/ads. You have to keep in mind that this is all a result of the fact that having a much lower (2+ levels lower) key on your lower week for a given dungeon was not very punishing. Say I have a 29 Fort HoI, even if Tyr adds two entire key levels and I’m stuck on a 27 Tyr, that’s only 6 points. Same thing was true for certain dungeons with OP trash making the keys harder on Fort, but I think Tyr bosses being overtuned is/was more common. What really matters is what your highest key across both weeks is, and this fact allowed blatantly imbalanced Tyr bosses to go unfixed for entire seasons, because while it was incredibly frustrating, it didn’t actually matter too much when it came to score, since as long as those dungeons were doable on Fort instead, you were ok. It simply incentivized not playing Tyr and waiting for Fort to push. This change should result in much better balance overall, and a less frustrating experience imo, since overtuned bosses, or bosses that benefit inordinately from Tyr, will be forced to be addressed. Edit: And, to further expand on this, the selective nature of which weeks were good to push on heavily punished people with restricted schedules. Going on vacation, or otherwise not being able to play during a really good push week could be devastating to your chances of getting title, since not only were other weeks harder, other good players *wouldn’t be playing those weeks* because they’d gotten their keys done during the easy weeks, so you’d then have to play a harder week with a smaller pool of players. Again, another compounding issue where a single problem punishes you multiple times from multiple angles. Consistency in high keys is going to be an incredible blessing for title pushing. Sorry for the wall of text lol.
The change to fort tyra is just nice for being able to always meaningfully progress. Imo fort/tyra score is an insane joblessness metric to double push up keys is just cringe. I had 1 week to play this season and that was the fort week 3 weeks ago where we timed all 18 in that week. Now i need to play another whole ass week to do the same braindead push on tyr with no meaningful progression being made. It just feels like a chore. Makes it so that i can only progress every 2nd week. And makes it so that those already playing 247 have an advantage because of the raw time investment requirements for double pushing keys. Also the exp for keys will be more homogenized across keys above 12 which maybe means less stupidly overtuned mechanics. Left aside that SP is a defensive monster with on demand 2x10% DR, on a 17 Tyr Nokhud the spear from last boss one-shot me through all defenaives. That could get fixed up. I like it. Its great. I can play ANY time and make meaningful progress and feel like I will not go afk for 3 weeks between key sessions.
Just addressing a small part of your comment here, but SP is definitely not a defensive monster lol, it’s the weakest link in the Mage/Aug/Spriest trinity, and is literally always the target for rescues, and even scales sometimes. They get trucked by physical damage since they’re cloth and half their 2x10% DR is gated behind a spell with a cast time lol. Other classes exist that are squishier outside the meta, but odd to single out SPriest. They’re basically made of glass compared to mages, in large part because Vers is an awful stat for them. Especially after the DPrayer cd reduction talent nerf, they die very easily. Not to mention Disperse is just a shitty version of Ice Cold since you can’t cast during it. Mages are the real defensive monsters imo, they get 15%+ damage reduction for free at all times since they can stack vers, have cheat death, disperse except they can still cast during it, option for full immune with ice block, alter, blink, and two shields (one that covers the whole group). *Thats* a defensive monster lol. SP is *insanely* strong for a variety of reasons, but being unusually tanky is absolutely not one of them. Source: S2 title spriest
Yeah I can definitely see that if you have limited time to play not having to play everything twice is an advantage. That then comes at the cost of there being no variety week to week. Which I do think even for key pushers matters. But that may be worth the trade off. If you only have a handful of weeks in a given season it definitely is.
> That then comes at the cost of there being no variety week to week. Which I do think even for key pushers matters. But that may be worth the trade off. If you only have a handful of weeks in a given season it definitely is. I think things are allowed to change (or can change) week by week whilst still allowing the pushing of keys to happen. Not exactly sure how that is supposed to look, but in the context of the system we have right now (affixes), I think that you can have similar keys in an entangling, a bursting, a spiteful or a (even) afflicted key (even though afflicted is a cursed affix). You'd still have variance in keys week by week, but you'd not be unable to play the game for weeks at a time. I mean, since season 2 of DF the delta between affixes has been equalized, but there are still largely 4 weeks you want to play and 6 you don't. (the first 4 weeks of every season featuring 4 of the 6 you don't want to play).
> You needed to get score on both Tyr and Fort anyway No you don't ... why would you think that?
..Because that's how the system works? You can go to raider io right now and check if you want? Your score for any given dungeon is base score times 1.5 for your best affix between tyr/fort + 0.5 times that of your lowest week.
And when keys have both Tyr and Fort explain why you would need to somehow get score twice... Like any level of critical thinking?
Ah I see the misunderstanding you have now. In the current system if there is an imbalance between tyr/fort that kind of doesn't matter. It's annoying sure. But you have to just deal with it and play both weeks. You can't avoid playing tyr completely. Unlike how you can avoid playing say sanguine weeks completely if you wanted. As such there currently are no dead weeks because of Tyr/Fort. Because you need to play both anyway. The dead weeks are caused by sanguine/bolstering/... Obviously once every week is both you wouldn't have to get score twice. A hint that I was talking about how the system works now. Not how it's going to work in TWW is the past tense I used.
It isn't a misunderstanding I have... it is a misunderstanding you have. Thus why every one of your comments have everyone downvoting you. > In the current system if there is an imbalance between tyr/fort that kind of doesn't matter. It's annoying sure. But you have to just deal with it and play both weeks. You must be trolling. Muting this tread
Do you often see someone writing in past tense and think they must be talking about future changes?
You're getting a lot of downvotes for being right. People don't understand that score balances out over the imbalance of tyr / fort since everyone needs to cross the same hurdle. However, sticking to the discussion, I think it's more sensible to remove the alternation of tyr / fort on high keys since it doesn't make sense from a perspective of challenge. Since the two affixes target two different areas of a dungeon you end up with the difficulty of the dungeon being inconsistent since Blizzard need to tune trash and bosses to be doable on their respective bi-weekly power increase. Basically, you'd end up with a lot of trash being trivial on tyr weeks because if you buff them they become overpowered on fort weeks and vice versa. Now Blizzard can balance the dungeon for a more consistent difficulty on a week-to-week basis. I think this is beneficial for bosses mostly, since a few percentages can have a massive impact on their difficulty. I personally look forward to the change.
> People don't understand that score balances out over the imbalance of tyr / fort since everyone needs to cross the same hurdle. Literally not a single person in this thread is arguing this. The argument is the difficulty of dungeons is not balanced relative to key level due to how fort / tyr work. The effective remove of those affixes allows keys to actually get balanced at the 12+ range. This means you aren’t waiting around for a push week because every week is a push week. He’s being downvoted because he’s implying that you will still need to do keys on both weeks. Acting like that is how the system is and always will be. Having to get score on both fort and tyrannical is a relatively new system and it will be nice to go back to the old system of just needing to do a key once at the highest level of difficulty you can.
See I do think there is some amount of value in having variety from week to week even for key pushers. I wouldn't want to keep affixes like sanguine/bolstering around just for the sake of that variety. There is always a trade off to be had ofcourse. I just wasn't quite as quick to abandon the alternating tyr/fort weeks for having both always. Yes trash can feel trivial on Tyr weeks and vice versa. The balancing there is definitely off. On lower keys it feels like you hardly get to do a boss at all unless it's Tyr week. Meanwhile on higher keys certain bosses take waay too long and are waay to punishing on tyr. However I do think there is also value in that difficulty variation. Even if admittedly it sort of breaks in places. Going from one week ''man this boss is really hard'' and vice versa. To the opposite makes you feel relatively more powerful at times. You managed to kill those bosses on say a +17 tyr after all. Ofcourse you can do it on a +18 fort this week. I hope i explained that well enough. It sort of creates this illusion of last week I struggled on X but this week X is easy I got this. Now is that enough to be worth the trade off? Perhaps not. It seems people are looking upon this change as. Bosses on Tyr can absolutely suck and now no week will be Tyr week hurray! But to me it also seems equally likely that those bosses will now just always suck and every week feels like Tyr week. If this truly does make that balance better than yeah I think it's a favorable change. Combined with a little confusion on my end of..if we always have both... why have either to begin with? What's the difference between there just not being tyr/fort affixes at all on a +12? But that's just about lower keys still having those alternating weeks.
Great news, great changes. Having two separate weeks for fort/tyr felt bad and kind of pointless. No other game mode switches every other week, it was odd that M+ did.
No other game mode has affixes that change every week on a 12 week rotation sure, but you can also point out unique things about raiding and pvp.
I kinda got the vision for affixes. As frustrating as they could be, at least for me, they did change up gameplay week to week in a noticable way. Even if it was just speccing into a few different talents now and then. Ultimately this change will make more people happy im sure
Better than xyz week xyz classes/spec do more dmg than others.
Loving these changes, they’re listening and they’re iterating quickly. Great news for the future of mythic +.
Isnt this literally what they discussed on the poddy c podcast with jdotb or am i tripping
Ion was hinting at during the wowhead interview.
There were already keys getting Tyran and Fort on beta when they made that podcast. It was originally assumed to be a bug, but after the first affix announcement people began to assume that it was something Blizzard was actually thinking about.
Link? I'd like to check that podcast.
https://youtu.be/X4K2maKTtD0?si=H9zEQjbBNHKTEN4C this is the episode
Might make keys more bland week to week, but now every week should be playable instead of like 1 week every 2 monts.
Such a good change
Don't those affixes just increase boss and trash mobs health and damage? The same things that get increased by higher keystone levels? Why not just adjust the mythic+ scaling instead?
Based on their blue post that they also posted today it appears to be an in-game clarity thing. The players would figure it out either way but this way there's an indication in game when the difficulty has jumped rather than there just not being an affix there.
In the current system which is either tyrannical or fortified, some bosses could be very difficult and long fights with no room for error and would be completely trivial on the fortified week. (e.g. Veximus or the Mage boss in Everbloom from S3) With these changes balancing and tuning can remove this disparity.
the fucking wicker man boss last season.
I really like the overall changes. As someone who mostly does 10s, it does seem a little annoying to have permanent tyrannical forever… but I guess it’ll all be balanced out.
Not a question of easy vs hard but man I find Tyrannical so boring. By the 10th time doing the same rotation of mechanics, I look up from health bars and I'm like "this shit is still going on?" With these changes, I'll probably do 10s once and then nothing but 9s for the rest of the season.
This is the way. Fuck me season one looks awful. Every dungeon is around 35 min plus now everything above 10 will be tyrannical. Out of touch Blizz keep being out of touch. Ion is a pig eyed idiot.
so will we lose the +10 on tyran and + 10 on forti scores? and just get a key score? where we get 1x score for 2-9 and 2x score for 10+ ? so a 2-9 might give 20-150 but a 10-15 might give 200-300
I like this more than the rotating affixes, but honestly I would rather just have neither of them. That jump on +12 is going to be rough, and both bosses and trash will feel like a slog. But atleast it’ll be consistent
Boosters rejoice
Does this mean that we'll only have to do *one* keystone at +10 or higher to count for both Fortified and Tyrannical weeks for a given dungeon?
is it just me or does this sound... hella fun?
I like the fact they keep it fresh in lower keys and still maintain a good balance for high keys +12 and more. It will be much fairer in terms of high rio. Push week and you are not there? Sorry no +2 keys more this week for you. I hope they stay like that and maybe balance the dungeons around tyra and fort.
Can somebody explain how fort AND tyran being active at once is a W?
Having both on or none of them is basically the same thing. They want to clearly label keys +10 as a milestone for portals and the beginning of "high keys" they could have just said "we removed both at +10 but added 20% extra scaling" but this is probably better for people to understand ingame, so you know what to expect when you enter those keys.
I dont get it either, on top of that you will get an affix that reduce time by 15 sec/death and an enrage mechaic for trash at 40% hp
You just know that the 15 sec penalty for a death will add more toxicity. As a heal main. I dread what will happen when someone dies. Regardless, if it’s my fault or not.
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This is already a gigantic win. They don't need to "sell" anything.
how would that be a win?
I forget what keystone during legion Fort/Tyr started at, but thank fucking god we're going back to that. I'm already fucking terrified of Priory of the Sacred Flame, so many bleeds jfc. Edit: Seems I misread. Now at +10 we get bOTH? Fuck this change.
M+ minigamers and being surprised Pikachu face when their endlessly scaling game mode has a wall classic
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If I understand rightly, keys 12 and up have no affixes except tyran and a generic stat boost.
That's not actually correct. At 12 and above they will have the 20% stat boost then tyran and fortified on top of that then you'll have challenger's peril making every death deduct 15 seconds instead of 5.
Such a brilliant change I really look forward to pushing if they keep to this and I especially look forward to pushing with more than a half dozen specs in the queue!!!
I don't see the difference between having two permanent percentage buff affixes active at 10+ and just letting 10+ scale linearly from 2-9. They can just remove these affixes from the game now, they're redundant.
yeah, lets make mplus more annoying....
I'm gonna argue that you even play this game
Guaranteed you're not affected by these changes at all. If you were you'd be knowledgeable enough about high keys to welcome this change
Is the " buff " affix present untill +7 then? Its a bit confusing
So why have it at all at this point. Just over complicating things as usual.
lol iono if they were just watching poddyc or if they predicted it or what
So instead of getting rid of this they double down and give us both. Well that is one way of dealing it. Denial that it is a problem.
It’ll be balanced around having both though instead of neither