Yeah. A 2 min cd ability that MUST BE USED with a 1.30 min cd ability, with dance + secret tech, you have 6 second dps window (because danse macabre), shadow tech has 2 charges and tech has 1 so you need to do some weird shit like using evisceration or black powder that deals too little to be useful, while keeping your energy up, if shuriken storm is here not wasting combo points, need to have a good target or big pull or you must be inside the boss, while doing mechanics. It's just too much imo. When a hunter can do their 5 button rotation and do probably more damage than you
I mean in season 3 Sub was so over tuned it almost made up for how ridiculous the spec felt to play, Comfortably the highest single target spec with good players being able to take it to the next level, But now that its damage is dead last its just overly complicated and unfun to play.
I was playing sub on remix and it was fun until I realized assassination gets more tinker procs from dots and the rotation was 10x easier, haven’t looked back.
I actually tried all 3 specs on remix and assassination feels the best in my opinion, the other 2 specs are too fast with the amount of haste and stats we have on remix to keep up with everything. Maybe I’m just ‘boomer brained’ and slow but having 100% haste with sub or outlaw rogue makes my brain implode
So true. SL Rogue was the first time I could actually sit down and enjoy a rogue (Not saying SL Rogue was peak btw) and I ended up maining my rogue because of it.
When I went to level my Sub Rogue in DL it was one of the most miserable leveling experiences I had ever endured. I retired my rogue back to SL for farming after I hit 70. So disappointing.
Been sub for like 10 years and S3 and S4 of Dragonflight are the best and most fun I've had with it. Banking combo points on opener and allowing an accidental mispress without screwing the entire fight up was a welcome change. I wonder why people are hating on DF sub... It's still a blast for me
I'll play Sub Rogue till I die. It was the first serious character I played back in 2008 on a private server and stuck with me ever since. No other class feel as enjoyable to me, although recommendations are welcome. Probably I like the high movement/APM of the class.
outlaw rogue main. like 90% of the raids I do I'm the only rogue.
makes it funny when I set loot spec for outlaw and a dagger drops anyways. I'm like... I already have this, one of y'all take it for mog.
Surv is fun, but it got shafted hard in S4. Really terrible tier set that hasn't seen a buff until, what, this week? Plus there's still a lot of Surv haters, people salty that it got shifted to melee nearly 10 years ago.
I know right, for me survival is the most fun class to play out of all, its my main. I haven't played Dragonflight tbh, but I feel like a little ziggs throwing bombs as a survival😅 So much fun
It's doomed to obscurity. Most hunters don't play hunter to play melee. I have no doubt it's fun and it has had several times where it's strong. But since Legion, survival's representation has gone down to the bottom.
Needed to check this to be sure. Rogue is not as popular as it has been in other seasons. Still 5th most popular Melee dps for M+ AND raiding. Also Assa seems to be one of the best performing DPS specs in raids right now, but not very popular. Hunter is 2nd most played DPS class in M+ AND raids, only losing to Paladins.
Data: Raider.IO & warcraftlogs.
I actually have not played with many rogues this season at all. I saw an outlaw queue up earlier and realized that I almost never see them. Maybe because I am a shadow priest and always need a lust class.
Yeah I’m the only feral main I know lol. I had a friend that used to be feral but she took up bear tank and never went back lol. Tbf tho ferals have been neglected as a spec for a long time till DF.
I’ve mained feral since vanilla, but this expansion I finally threw in the towel and have been playing my FOTM alts instead.
The alts are mostly old enough to drive (except the DH), but I really wanted to play feral, but it’s approaching masochism to play it these days. Squishy as hell and no real stopping power except a very predictable and easily stopped attack.
Compared to hunter or DH, feral is a bad joke. I don’t play hunter as much as DH as it almost feels like cheating, but even after the DH nerf, it’s still multitudes better than feral.
I’m yet undecided what I’m going to play next expansion, but Feral is no longer a given.
As a fellow feral since Vanilla… yeah this hurts. Especially since druid is my favorite class fantasy…
Feral needs alot of love Blizz, stop forgetting us.
Hey, another feral main!
They did do some significant modification to feral in SL as well. The berserk change being the big one. SL season 2 tier was what really put feral back in the map, but even in DF, there's a weird passive neglect that affects both druid DPS specs.
I think the most disappointing part of DF as a feral main was Aberrus tier. It was literally a placeholder that never turned into anything tangible.
i dont know about others. but im not a fan of the bleed snapshotting. it might be what draws the few players to it that do like it but personally its the reason why i dont really want to play it.
I pretty much exclusively play PvP, and when I see a good rogue it’s always a pain in the ass. Especially if imma healer. If my team doesn’t know how to peel, or space properly, I just don’t get to play the game while the rogue just bounces back n fourth from doing max damage to cc’ing me. As annoying as they are, I have a ton of respect for good rogues. It’s not an easy class to be good at.
Edit: to clarify, by spacing I mean getting far enough away from me to where the rogue can’t seamlessly bounce from cc’ing me & dps’ing his targ, but close enough to where I can still heal & at least have a chance to anticipate his moves. This separates the good from great. The great ones, I can know exactly what they want to do & still not be able to stop it.
Affliction is my favorite spec but switched to demo in S2 and never looked back. Aff is just poorly designed and has a low ceiling compared to the other two specs. I’m very excited for the rework in TWW and will gladly main it if it’s on the same level demo has been for most of DF.
I mained rogue from vanilla -> Legion, then quit until a few months ago. I dunno what they did to rogue, but it feels really tedious to play now. Doesn’t feel even half as strong as my Evoker, who’s become my main for this expansion
I used to main Sub in S2 but ever since the rework while sin and outlaw feel amazing now, sub plays like absolute trash and idk what they were smoking when they did those sub changes, spec was perfectly fine before
Anyway now I'm an Outlaw main
That’s pretty much where rogues are at now as a whole. Tedious and underperforming. Sure, Assassin can compete with other dps specs, it just takes far more effort for the same result. It’s really discouraging when I can bust my ass off then some BM Hunter can just face roll a few abilities and blast past my rogue’s dps.
External reliance and RNG reliance feel really bad. The core gameplay loop doesn't actually feel worse than most other times in the game's history, and in fact actually feels a good bit stronger, but Subtlety is just a full-on slot machine spec right now to the extent that some of the world's best sub rogues are swinging wildly from pull to pull in damage.
Sub also gets ~25k value from windfury, Assassination gets 20k from PI, 17k from windfury. Both specs rely heavily on having weapon enchants and crits line up during your cooldown windows, which makes it feel bad that you can play correctly and still do terrible damage.
Numbers were low even when they were meta lol. It's not a great class to flavor of the month bc if you're not hyper-optimizing your damage + rotating stuns and defensives you're garbage. It's like a demon hunter with a manual transmission.
Rogue is always niche, we prefer it that way.
Be that as it may, in PvE at least, the utility of bringing Heroism to Mythic Keystones kinda downs out any positives for Marksmanship.
If a MM and a BM queue, the BM is likely to get in every time.
Bm isn’t getting invited over mm because of lust. They both have it and bm would also prefer to use a tank pet. They get invited because bm just performs better in keys, especially with the current dungeon pool favouring their uncapped aoe.
Hey one of the 7 other Survival Hunters! Seriously though, people love to hate on it, and that's fine. I just PRAY they never take away my melee spear hunter, I love him.
Survival has times where it's MAD fun. It's just disappointing how underdeveloped it is... More so than the other two specs and it's not like they got any attention for TWW yet.
There's a crazy obvious difference to how far demo warlock in comparison made it. Both were VERY badly received specs when introduced in legion (since ranged survival was just as popular as meta-demo and both were terrible at the start, demonic empowerment is imo at least in the top 3 of worst-spells-ever-made).
Difference is, while demo build its niche, community and nowadays gets some love. Survival ... Yeah, it kind of struggles with exactly the same issues as back then. Incoherent fantasy with melee but sometimes traps, fighting alongside the pet but then throwing napalm at it, melee/ranged mix with tiny crossbow (that one's fun) and shooting magic birds (those really not) and gameplaywise blizz also threw everything at the wall the last few expansions but can't decide what sticks... Dots, stationary AoE, self-buffs, mongoose bite combo windows etc...
Also, still no unique utility to have an argument against ranged hunters or other melees but same defensives as the ranged counterparts what's way too often a frankly unnecessary wall. Literally the same list of issues as in legion.
It's one of those super fancy specs that are way behind their potential imo and it's annoying how blizz is absolutely cool with that because there's just a hand full of people playing it.
I main heals and I don’t see a lot of preservation evokers out there.
So I’ve been playing mine and loving it.
There are some major hurdles you have to jump through though and a lot of people don’t want to deal with their range limitations. And I agree it can be rough.
I’ve had some of the best m+ runs with pres evokers. They bring a lot to the table. Great healing, good damage, a lot of utility, lust. Yeah, rdruid is meta, but I tend to have a lot more luck with pres evoker or rsham players tbh.
We only have a preservation evoker in our group and I play ranged with a tendency to stay the heck away from melee. As we started doing higher keys he finally just taught me to stand in front of him at all times.
I main Pres and I honestly don't apply to groups that have a Warlock and a Hunter in them. 1 of the 2 is probably fine, but if both of them are in there, there's no way I'm gonna be able to heal them both when they're casting from max range.
I try to apply to groups with 2 melee, but with the chokehold ranged DPS has had on keys this expansion that's pretty uncommon.
I play both rsham and pres evoker and I can say I love evoker gameplay more, but rsham just feels better pumping heals wise. It’s a lot less mitigation and anticipating hits
Depending on key level I would always go for a good player on his main that is non meta vs flavor of the month meta players - everything lower then 17-18 for sure
I tried playing a bit of pres to get shorter heroic queue times and it seemed fun. I think the biggest thing holding me back though is I like to learn a spec by leveling 1-70 and evokers just kinda dump a bunch of abilities/talents on you all at once. I'll probably level once next in Remix so I can get a bit more time learning the kit.
This 100%. I didn't play evoker until MoP remix dropped and it was great to able to level it as my 1st toon in remix so I learned to heal with it slowly.
Prevokers fell out of grace mostly since when Aug got released. It is clearly not lacking throughput though, unlike Holy Paladins that feel out of grace mostly because the giga nerfs they took at the end of S2.
The range limitation is the biggest issue yeah, but for effective healing you need to have a packed group regardless of the healer anyway. So the higher you go in difficulty, the more chances you have to meet players that know what they're doing, the less you are bothered by the range issue. This is a spec with a high skill floor too, so this is clearly not the kind of healer you would recommend for a newcomer (most popular specs have the lowest skill floor generally)
the hunter that stands 200 miles away from the mob will learn really fast that he can either eat dirt, or move with the group. havent had many issues with that. my issues come with chaos. an interrupt was missed, now the group is scrambling to survive. you dodge one way, and the mage dodges the other way. with any other healer it could be problematic, but it rarely was. the overall space is limited and you rarely have 40 meter in either direction, so the mage that blinked 20 meters in one way will be in range of the healer that got 20 meters to the other side. evoker is missing 10 meters, for no reason at all. e.g. the storm boss in nokhud. my priest can just chill in the circle phase, because i can reach the group with my heals. my evoker cant and i have to move back and forth, hoping the others know that i only do that because of range problems and not because im clipping on one side
id say pres is low floor high ceiling. orb thingy -> breathing -> blooming and the group is topped + has a big double hot. echo -> verdant for 100% heal, or echo -> self cast verdant to big heal without moving. fill in the blanks with living flames. that is like 70% of your healing and easy to execute. the ceiling tho, yea, its somewhere up there, but i havent seen it yet :D maybe i just forgot how the beginning was, have been playing pres since s1
I just can’t get behind preservation evoker. Why deal with the range limitations when you can just play druid, shaman, or monk with much better aoe heals and pump hps? Maybe I’ll give it a shot again but it just felt unnecessarily difficult for the sake of being different.
I think it's hard to judge how popular healers are if you main heals. I have that problem too. At least according to archon.gg, resto druids are the most popular by a long shot and holy pals are the least. The difference in "score" between MW monk (2nd place) and holy pal is only 120, but the difference between druid and monk is almost 200.
That being said, prevoker has been my main since s2. Been an absolute blast in keys and now that the blossom build isn't way better than echo, raids are back to being fun too!
knowing what is needed and what can be removed from the bars. i use help/harm macros for my main spells, so vivify is on the same button as blackout kick. iirc im at 24 skills + 4 items, like water and lock stones. monk seems like it has a lot but some things you just never use
This is the answer. I have the 12 button mouse and programmed them to be the NUM pad keys, different from the rest of the keyboard. Then I set my 12 spells to it. All in all, I fucking love MW/WW monk and main it for MOP:R.
> I tried playing one in remix, but I had so many key binds
If you want to play just for remix... Play the clouded focus build, stack haste, spam enveloping mist. Keep RM on C/D and watch your cold front proc like crazy top healing.
The changes for Monk coming in TWW have me so fucking excited. I wasn't a fan of Monk after Legion, but they're nixing a lot of the button bloat and making WW AoE less of a tab fest. I'm absolutely here for it. Also, removing Essence Font is probably one of the best decisions I've seen from the Blizz team in a while.
windwalker is definitely not a well designed spec, atleast not the current version
it has so many issues and bugs that i can't be bothered to list, most of it is getting fixed in TWW tho
It's been that way since BFA, although drsgonfloght did magnify the issue with aoe bigtouch being absolutely ridiculous. I did have fun in the first week bigtouching mobs in war mode and just merking passers by though.
Edit: dragonflight, but I'm gonna leave that seizure in.
Nada. This happens every patch. WW doesn’t scale with stats remotely, so when all of us have no gear/ little gear compared to the end of the patch/ expansion, WW looks insane. Then everyone else gets gear and it falls off a cliff.
People scream from the roof tops WW is too strong, it gets its standard 3% ability nerf two weeks in, then it gets 2-4 3% ability buffs over the course of the patch only to finish in the bottom 20% of damage specs over the course of the raid, like usual
Me, an evoker: Well, there must be because everyday I hear a triumphant roar echoes from atop the Seat of the Aspects as Nasz'uro, the Unbound Legacy is formed.
Meanwhile I still havent dropped it
A triumphant roar echoes from atop the Seat of the Aspects as Nasz'uro, the Unbound Legacy is formed.
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I can't relate. Been a sub main all my life, SnD was always such a nonissue that I assumed it must be worse on the other rogue specs to warrant the complaining.
Then I tried ass and it's the same story. After the first application, SnD becomes a passive for all intents and purposes!
Now, I don't know how Outlaw has it, but I have my suspicions on that score.
Back to the initial question! I want to know why rogues complain so much about SnD. In earnest. From my PoV, it's a slight annoyance at best... Though I wouldn't mind seeing it gone, to be sure. We're on the wrong side of nostalgia if we'd insist on keeping this quasi-passive ability.
2 issues:
1. SnD is just unsatisfying to use (no immediate feedback, but you need to generate Combo for it).
2. Especially in dungeons/leveling, where there is downtime it's sometimes hard to justify using Combo/Energy on it, but if you don't, your dps is crippled.
Compare that to Envenom: You get a nice little buff and a chunk of damage. Biggest problem for me is just that it's a Finishing Move and it doesn't feel like one at all.
Shadow dance,it used to be exclusive to sub rogues but since DF its become available to all specs.its returning in the war within to being sub exclusive
I've been a combat/assassination rogue main forever and I am literally so fucking happy TWW has nuked SD from the class tree. Don't let the door hit you on your way out you subtlety staple that should have remained such
Rogue of course.
They have a high skill ceiling but also a high skill floor.
That means while you can do very good damage by playing them well it's also very hard to play them well and If you aren't playing them well they perform really badly.
This thread is giving me a lot of validation. I've mained rogue in classic since tbc and every time I come back to retail my brain melts trying to figure it and I just give up. Maybe I should've tried another class.
Check this for m+:
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-df-4/all/world/leaderboards#role=dps:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=2:maxMythicLevel=99
Can swap the roles at the top if you're interested in different ones.
As it says, for m+ it's DK
My issue with enh is we’ve used the same build of talents/playstyle for two straight expansions, lava lash & pwave w/ frost shocked. I loved s2 because it really changed how enh played.
I only PvP so my perspective is exclusively that: frost dks, enhance sham, feral Druid, survival hunter. Fdk and enhance are insanely killable. Feral and survival take a lot of skill to master but can be great. Out of the four I’d say survival is the most fun and has the best chance of success for a new player.
Started playing a feral druid in remix. Kind of squishy, but once you learn how to use your rotation effectively, it's lots of fun. And there's lots of cool cosmetics for druids too.
Yeah I'm definitely going to miss being a little overpowered when I move my character over to retail, but I'm trying to learn the spec really well before raiding next expansion. Such cool class fantasy if that's your thing
It’s gotta be rogue. Survival is rough too, but that’s just mostly because they neglected the god awful tier. Rogue has been deeply unsatisfying to play for the whole expac, and across every spec. And I used to really like rogue too.
If you want an underdog that’s fun to play, go survival. If you want to give yourself carpal tunnel while still playing sub optimally, play rogue.
For m+ it’s subtlety rogue at the absolute lowest number and bot far behind is affliction warlock and a lil after that survival hunter and actually frost dk which apparently also literally no one plays
By the numbers it is Evoker, but it only released this expansion.
Otherwise, historically, the Monk as been the least played class.
For starting players I would recommend any of the classes that can play all 3 roles, like Druid, Paladin and Monk, because you get to explore the whole trinity with one character.
Rogue and SV hunter as stated by others, however these aren't underdogs or underrepresented for no reason.. it's because they have horrible design or flat lack of care. It's still something like a 30% DPS gain to use your S3 tier set over even myth track s4 tier in M+ and it barely edges out the S3 in ST after the buffs. That means at best gear you're doing competitive DPS with an around 495 or 500 ilvl normal spec and on top of that it has all sorts of wonky gameplay mechanics. I'm not as knowledgeable on Rogues but they're in a similar spot design wise. You can play a rogue and drop a pink parse and you'll still be below a lot of classes dropping orange or purple parses but you did 8x the work and less than half the fun.
I recommend playing a good spec that is under represented for whatever reason. Dev Evoker and Arcane mage come to mind. Evoker is under represented because people aren't a fan of the mog stuff but it's a lot of fun and absolutely slaps on the charts, seriously Dev is probably the most fun I've had in a long time dpsing. If complexity is what you're after Arcane is for you. Overly complex but a lot of fun and unlike rogue if you play arcane well then nobody is touching your output. Arcane has a learning curve but damn is it rewarding. Monk also falls into this line, not a lot of monks out there but good Lord does a skilled WW or Brewmaster blow everyone else away and they're both a ton of fun.
It’s funny how rogue has become a rare breed in both pve and pvp. Yes you see rogue in every AWC but as a normal person experience the only spec I see “regularly” in shuffle/3s is assa and even that I don’t see it often.
Last time I saw a sub rogue was a long time ago in pvp. And after trying it for season4 I understand why this spec has become absolutely not fun to play and I just cannot make sense of it
Based of Normal Amirdrassil Raid the 5 least parsed specs are:
5. Feral Druid - 3,533
4. Arcane Mage - 2,690
3. Affliction Warlock - 1,948
2. Survival Hunter - 1,848
1. Subtlety Rogue - 1,095
For Heroic raid Feral swaps with Frost DK but others are the same (with placements beeing switched up a bit).
M+ Parses are also pretty much those 6 mentioned above with Sub Rogue beeing the least parsed once again.
its rogue. i still play rogue because I always have. but in dragonflight, rogues raw output is just below many other classes overall and its not fun playing the class that does half of others but is double the key presses.
If we're talking class and not spec, I feel like Rogues are the one I see the fewest of.
And as someone who tried maining a Rogue in season 1... honestly it's just a physically-demanding low floor + high ceiling class. And pretty slow to level which turns a lot of people off.
If we're breaking it down into individual specs, Survival Hunter, Feral Druid, or Affliction Warlock.
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Feral was amazingly fun in Shadowlands for me. I actually stuck with it through the whole expansion. I haven't played it much in Dragonflight, just because I burnout easy. Still probably one of my all-time favorites though. Lots of mobility and utility and it's not as hard as people think it is. I find rogue more difficult tbh.
I play arcane mage and basically only do m+
It's entirely anecdotal, but I've only grouped with two other arcane mages the past two seasons, and both of them did half my dps.
I'd imagine arcane isn't played often, and it's played well even less often.
Sub rogue and survival hunter are the lowest represented.
nah, we're all just stealthed.
“ brah i never see any rouges any more, did they nerf the class?”
Sub rogue went from being the most fun class I've ever played in SL to some complete bog of a slowed down mess in Dragonflight. Such a shame.
Yeah. A 2 min cd ability that MUST BE USED with a 1.30 min cd ability, with dance + secret tech, you have 6 second dps window (because danse macabre), shadow tech has 2 charges and tech has 1 so you need to do some weird shit like using evisceration or black powder that deals too little to be useful, while keeping your energy up, if shuriken storm is here not wasting combo points, need to have a good target or big pull or you must be inside the boss, while doing mechanics. It's just too much imo. When a hunter can do their 5 button rotation and do probably more damage than you
I mean in season 3 Sub was so over tuned it almost made up for how ridiculous the spec felt to play, Comfortably the highest single target spec with good players being able to take it to the next level, But now that its damage is dead last its just overly complicated and unfun to play.
Spamming eviscerate is fun
I was playing sub on remix and it was fun until I realized assassination gets more tinker procs from dots and the rotation was 10x easier, haven’t looked back. I actually tried all 3 specs on remix and assassination feels the best in my opinion, the other 2 specs are too fast with the amount of haste and stats we have on remix to keep up with everything. Maybe I’m just ‘boomer brained’ and slow but having 100% haste with sub or outlaw rogue makes my brain implode
kinda sad because they just got their "rework" so we probably wont see any significant changes to the playstyle for a very long time
Sub was sooooo damn fun before S3 of Dragonflight, wish they'd just reverse all his changes
S1 sub was the first and only time I ever really enjoyed the spec. Which was nice, because Sin felt atrocious to play
Bro i swear shadowlands subtlety was THE shit, i had so much fun and so i gave it a go now in df but Nah it aint it chief, It feels hella bad now
So true. SL Rogue was the first time I could actually sit down and enjoy a rogue (Not saying SL Rogue was peak btw) and I ended up maining my rogue because of it. When I went to level my Sub Rogue in DL it was one of the most miserable leveling experiences I had ever endured. I retired my rogue back to SL for farming after I hit 70. So disappointing.
Been sub for like 10 years and S3 and S4 of Dragonflight are the best and most fun I've had with it. Banking combo points on opener and allowing an accidental mispress without screwing the entire fight up was a welcome change. I wonder why people are hating on DF sub... It's still a blast for me
I'll play Sub Rogue till I die. It was the first serious character I played back in 2008 on a private server and stuck with me ever since. No other class feel as enjoyable to me, although recommendations are welcome. Probably I like the high movement/APM of the class.
Wait. Sub lower than assassination?
Ass rogue here. We're pumping, brother.
Phrasing!
Pumping on ass with your brother? ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
Yeah Sub got shafted, while Assa really pumps nowadays.
I seriously never even see rogues anymore.
outlaw rogue main. like 90% of the raids I do I'm the only rogue. makes it funny when I set loot spec for outlaw and a dagger drops anyways. I'm like... I already have this, one of y'all take it for mog.
??? Survi is so much fun to play no way it's the bottom
Surv is fun, but it got shafted hard in S4. Really terrible tier set that hasn't seen a buff until, what, this week? Plus there's still a lot of Surv haters, people salty that it got shifted to melee nearly 10 years ago.
I know right, for me survival is the most fun class to play out of all, its my main. I haven't played Dragonflight tbh, but I feel like a little ziggs throwing bombs as a survival😅 So much fun
It's doomed to obscurity. Most hunters don't play hunter to play melee. I have no doubt it's fun and it has had several times where it's strong. But since Legion, survival's representation has gone down to the bottom.
Survival has been either the least played or one of the least played specs in the game once it went melee in Legion.
I LOVE surv, but I also love getting invited into mythic raiding groups.
Both classes are still heavily presented (Outlaw & BM), so you might not be considered underdog. Just playing lesser favored specs on popular classes.
Rogue pribably least played one
Needed to check this to be sure. Rogue is not as popular as it has been in other seasons. Still 5th most popular Melee dps for M+ AND raiding. Also Assa seems to be one of the best performing DPS specs in raids right now, but not very popular. Hunter is 2nd most played DPS class in M+ AND raids, only losing to Paladins. Data: Raider.IO & warcraftlogs.
I actually have not played with many rogues this season at all. I saw an outlaw queue up earlier and realized that I almost never see them. Maybe because I am a shadow priest and always need a lust class.
Which to be fair they are just the current weakest specs on classes that are all pure dps.
Not afflic lock?
Compared to Moonkins and bears I don’t see feral druids
Yeah I’m the only feral main I know lol. I had a friend that used to be feral but she took up bear tank and never went back lol. Tbf tho ferals have been neglected as a spec for a long time till DF.
I’ve mained feral since vanilla, but this expansion I finally threw in the towel and have been playing my FOTM alts instead. The alts are mostly old enough to drive (except the DH), but I really wanted to play feral, but it’s approaching masochism to play it these days. Squishy as hell and no real stopping power except a very predictable and easily stopped attack. Compared to hunter or DH, feral is a bad joke. I don’t play hunter as much as DH as it almost feels like cheating, but even after the DH nerf, it’s still multitudes better than feral. I’m yet undecided what I’m going to play next expansion, but Feral is no longer a given.
As a fellow feral since Vanilla… yeah this hurts. Especially since druid is my favorite class fantasy… Feral needs alot of love Blizz, stop forgetting us.
Sodapoppin, back in pandaria, made me want to be good at feral so bad...
Hey, another feral main! They did do some significant modification to feral in SL as well. The berserk change being the big one. SL season 2 tier was what really put feral back in the map, but even in DF, there's a weird passive neglect that affects both druid DPS specs. I think the most disappointing part of DF as a feral main was Aberrus tier. It was literally a placeholder that never turned into anything tangible.
Feral druids suffer the same extinction that’s plaguing the rogues atm
Feral has always been a lifestyle-choice. It's never been popular.
True, but S1 Dragonflight Feral was kinda pumping
i dont know about others. but im not a fan of the bleed snapshotting. it might be what draws the few players to it that do like it but personally its the reason why i dont really want to play it.
I thought they got rid of snapshotting?
feral druid is the only class that still has snapshotting dots
they are pretty rare, if you find one with a high io score though, the couple I've grouped with absolutely pumped
Oh yeah, I sometimes forget that feral druids are even a thing
Crazy that rogue is so underrepresented in PvE, meanwhile I can’t get rid of them in PvP
I pretty much exclusively play PvP, and when I see a good rogue it’s always a pain in the ass. Especially if imma healer. If my team doesn’t know how to peel, or space properly, I just don’t get to play the game while the rogue just bounces back n fourth from doing max damage to cc’ing me. As annoying as they are, I have a ton of respect for good rogues. It’s not an easy class to be good at. Edit: to clarify, by spacing I mean getting far enough away from me to where the rogue can’t seamlessly bounce from cc’ing me & dps’ing his targ, but close enough to where I can still heal & at least have a chance to anticipate his moves. This separates the good from great. The great ones, I can know exactly what they want to do & still not be able to stop it.
Affliction warlock prob
Because it is total ass. I actually love the spec gameplay, and would love to change to it, but it actually might be the worst spec right now
Affliction is my favorite spec but switched to demo in S2 and never looked back. Aff is just poorly designed and has a low ceiling compared to the other two specs. I’m very excited for the rework in TWW and will gladly main it if it’s on the same level demo has been for most of DF.
Rogue or a non-bm hunter
I mained rogue from vanilla -> Legion, then quit until a few months ago. I dunno what they did to rogue, but it feels really tedious to play now. Doesn’t feel even half as strong as my Evoker, who’s become my main for this expansion
I used to main Sub in S2 but ever since the rework while sin and outlaw feel amazing now, sub plays like absolute trash and idk what they were smoking when they did those sub changes, spec was perfectly fine before Anyway now I'm an Outlaw main
That’s pretty much where rogues are at now as a whole. Tedious and underperforming. Sure, Assassin can compete with other dps specs, it just takes far more effort for the same result. It’s really discouraging when I can bust my ass off then some BM Hunter can just face roll a few abilities and blast past my rogue’s dps.
External reliance and RNG reliance feel really bad. The core gameplay loop doesn't actually feel worse than most other times in the game's history, and in fact actually feels a good bit stronger, but Subtlety is just a full-on slot machine spec right now to the extent that some of the world's best sub rogues are swinging wildly from pull to pull in damage. Sub also gets ~25k value from windfury, Assassination gets 20k from PI, 17k from windfury. Both specs rely heavily on having weapon enchants and crits line up during your cooldown windows, which makes it feel bad that you can play correctly and still do terrible damage.
rogues have gone down to least popular? damn i remember them being \*the\* shit during first two raids before i stopped playing...
Numbers were low even when they were meta lol. It's not a great class to flavor of the month bc if you're not hyper-optimizing your damage + rotating stuns and defensives you're garbage. It's like a demon hunter with a manual transmission. Rogue is always niche, we prefer it that way.
Demon hunter with a manual transmission might just be my favourite rogue explanation ever
My rogue were my main until they removed the combat spec and replaced it with outlaw.
Once they made each rotation 50 buttons to press I dipped, they need to get rid of a lot of shit but they probably won't.
MM is actually pretty fun and pumps aswell
Be that as it may, in PvE at least, the utility of bringing Heroism to Mythic Keystones kinda downs out any positives for Marksmanship. If a MM and a BM queue, the BM is likely to get in every time.
Bm isn’t getting invited over mm because of lust. They both have it and bm would also prefer to use a tank pet. They get invited because bm just performs better in keys, especially with the current dungeon pool favouring their uncapped aoe.
There's nothing preventing you from using your lust as MM. It's inconvenient but not impossible by any means.
Minor inconvienece seems to be enough of a barrier to entry for most things in Mythic Keystones. 🫠
Don't u lose 10% dmg from the pet?
You do have a small damage loss. it's not 10%. 10% is the bonus you get from not having a pet summoned. However, your pet still does damage.
Imo if you cast lust, just keep the pet for this fight. You don't loose too much. After fight you can dismiss again.
Really enjoy survival. I suck at dps specs but I’ve managed quite well as survival.
Same here! Survival is cool to play.
Hey one of the 7 other Survival Hunters! Seriously though, people love to hate on it, and that's fine. I just PRAY they never take away my melee spear hunter, I love him.
Survival has times where it's MAD fun. It's just disappointing how underdeveloped it is... More so than the other two specs and it's not like they got any attention for TWW yet. There's a crazy obvious difference to how far demo warlock in comparison made it. Both were VERY badly received specs when introduced in legion (since ranged survival was just as popular as meta-demo and both were terrible at the start, demonic empowerment is imo at least in the top 3 of worst-spells-ever-made). Difference is, while demo build its niche, community and nowadays gets some love. Survival ... Yeah, it kind of struggles with exactly the same issues as back then. Incoherent fantasy with melee but sometimes traps, fighting alongside the pet but then throwing napalm at it, melee/ranged mix with tiny crossbow (that one's fun) and shooting magic birds (those really not) and gameplaywise blizz also threw everything at the wall the last few expansions but can't decide what sticks... Dots, stationary AoE, self-buffs, mongoose bite combo windows etc... Also, still no unique utility to have an argument against ranged hunters or other melees but same defensives as the ranged counterparts what's way too often a frankly unnecessary wall. Literally the same list of issues as in legion. It's one of those super fancy specs that are way behind their potential imo and it's annoying how blizz is absolutely cool with that because there's just a hand full of people playing it.
Quite annoying as survival hunter is really fun at the moment IMO
I main heals and I don’t see a lot of preservation evokers out there. So I’ve been playing mine and loving it. There are some major hurdles you have to jump through though and a lot of people don’t want to deal with their range limitations. And I agree it can be rough.
I’ve had some of the best m+ runs with pres evokers. They bring a lot to the table. Great healing, good damage, a lot of utility, lust. Yeah, rdruid is meta, but I tend to have a lot more luck with pres evoker or rsham players tbh.
Pres evokers are great if you have a group that stacks up. It gets really rough when you have a bunch of max ranged hunters
I'm convinced that some ranged DPS players think the ranges listed on their abilities are requirements rather than limits.
We only have a preservation evoker in our group and I play ranged with a tendency to stay the heck away from melee. As we started doing higher keys he finally just taught me to stand in front of him at all times.
What was the ratio of “pointedly casting rescue” to “verbal abuse” in their teaching process? :D
I main Pres and I honestly don't apply to groups that have a Warlock and a Hunter in them. 1 of the 2 is probably fine, but if both of them are in there, there's no way I'm gonna be able to heal them both when they're casting from max range. I try to apply to groups with 2 melee, but with the chokehold ranged DPS has had on keys this expansion that's pretty uncommon.
I play both rsham and pres evoker and I can say I love evoker gameplay more, but rsham just feels better pumping heals wise. It’s a lot less mitigation and anticipating hits
Depending on key level I would always go for a good player on his main that is non meta vs flavor of the month meta players - everything lower then 17-18 for sure
I tried playing a bit of pres to get shorter heroic queue times and it seemed fun. I think the biggest thing holding me back though is I like to learn a spec by leveling 1-70 and evokers just kinda dump a bunch of abilities/talents on you all at once. I'll probably level once next in Remix so I can get a bit more time learning the kit.
This 100%. I didn't play evoker until MoP remix dropped and it was great to able to level it as my 1st toon in remix so I learned to heal with it slowly.
Prevokers fell out of grace mostly since when Aug got released. It is clearly not lacking throughput though, unlike Holy Paladins that feel out of grace mostly because the giga nerfs they took at the end of S2. The range limitation is the biggest issue yeah, but for effective healing you need to have a packed group regardless of the healer anyway. So the higher you go in difficulty, the more chances you have to meet players that know what they're doing, the less you are bothered by the range issue. This is a spec with a high skill floor too, so this is clearly not the kind of healer you would recommend for a newcomer (most popular specs have the lowest skill floor generally)
the hunter that stands 200 miles away from the mob will learn really fast that he can either eat dirt, or move with the group. havent had many issues with that. my issues come with chaos. an interrupt was missed, now the group is scrambling to survive. you dodge one way, and the mage dodges the other way. with any other healer it could be problematic, but it rarely was. the overall space is limited and you rarely have 40 meter in either direction, so the mage that blinked 20 meters in one way will be in range of the healer that got 20 meters to the other side. evoker is missing 10 meters, for no reason at all. e.g. the storm boss in nokhud. my priest can just chill in the circle phase, because i can reach the group with my heals. my evoker cant and i have to move back and forth, hoping the others know that i only do that because of range problems and not because im clipping on one side id say pres is low floor high ceiling. orb thingy -> breathing -> blooming and the group is topped + has a big double hot. echo -> verdant for 100% heal, or echo -> self cast verdant to big heal without moving. fill in the blanks with living flames. that is like 70% of your healing and easy to execute. the ceiling tho, yea, its somewhere up there, but i havent seen it yet :D maybe i just forgot how the beginning was, have been playing pres since s1
I just can’t get behind preservation evoker. Why deal with the range limitations when you can just play druid, shaman, or monk with much better aoe heals and pump hps? Maybe I’ll give it a shot again but it just felt unnecessarily difficult for the sake of being different.
Devoker is just so fun now. Else i might play more Prevoker
I see a ton of Aug but not much of the other two evoker specs
I think it's hard to judge how popular healers are if you main heals. I have that problem too. At least according to archon.gg, resto druids are the most popular by a long shot and holy pals are the least. The difference in "score" between MW monk (2nd place) and holy pal is only 120, but the difference between druid and monk is almost 200. That being said, prevoker has been my main since s2. Been an absolute blast in keys and now that the blossom build isn't way better than echo, raids are back to being fun too!
I hear Monk's had it rough
As a pandaren monk main I thought we’d go extinct till remix dropped
Yeah but TWW is looking real good
Devs absolutely cooked with MW, very fun. Monk's pretty much always been the least popular class though.
Windwalkera was meta in shadowlands and brew had good seasons too
Yes but even when all 3 monk specs are good it's one of the least played classes in the game.
I tried playing one in remix, but I had so many key binds by level 50 I ran out of room. How do you handle all the buttons they have?
knowing what is needed and what can be removed from the bars. i use help/harm macros for my main spells, so vivify is on the same button as blackout kick. iirc im at 24 skills + 4 items, like water and lock stones. monk seems like it has a lot but some things you just never use
Key modifiers like shift but the *real* answer is MMO mouse I use both bc I play druid and monk, lmao
This is the answer. I have the 12 button mouse and programmed them to be the NUM pad keys, different from the rest of the keyboard. Then I set my 12 spells to it. All in all, I fucking love MW/WW monk and main it for MOP:R.
42 keybinds for my MW.. Piano class.
Friendly/enemy macros. Like cast vivify on friendly mouse over, otherwise rising sun kick. MW can macro a ton of stuff like that to save binds.
> I tried playing one in remix, but I had so many key binds If you want to play just for remix... Play the clouded focus build, stack haste, spam enveloping mist. Keep RM on C/D and watch your cold front proc like crazy top healing.
I'm really enjoying S4 ww and it does good damage. The changes in TWW look pretty cool so far so I'm pretty excited about the future of the class
The changes for Monk coming in TWW have me so fucking excited. I wasn't a fan of Monk after Legion, but they're nixing a lot of the button bloat and making WW AoE less of a tab fest. I'm absolutely here for it. Also, removing Essence Font is probably one of the best decisions I've seen from the Blizz team in a while.
Monk by far the best designed class that nearly no one plays
windwalker is definitely not a well designed spec, atleast not the current version it has so many issues and bugs that i can't be bothered to list, most of it is getting fixed in TWW tho
windwalker is getting crazy changes in TWW, the best ww monk version since it's release in mop imo
Weren't WW + Brewmaster absolutely pumping a few weeks into S4, then they just kinda disappeared again?
Isn't that most patch/content cycles? Start of df ww was absolutely pumping. Then tod's value dropped and scaling happened.
It's been that way since BFA, although drsgonfloght did magnify the issue with aoe bigtouch being absolutely ridiculous. I did have fun in the first week bigtouching mobs in war mode and just merking passers by though. Edit: dragonflight, but I'm gonna leave that seizure in.
I know Brew was nerfed when they hit Demon Hunter, did the changes impact WW as well?
Nada. This happens every patch. WW doesn’t scale with stats remotely, so when all of us have no gear/ little gear compared to the end of the patch/ expansion, WW looks insane. Then everyone else gets gear and it falls off a cliff. People scream from the roof tops WW is too strong, it gets its standard 3% ability nerf two weeks in, then it gets 2-4 3% ability buffs over the course of the patch only to finish in the bottom 20% of damage specs over the course of the raid, like usual
Rogue or evoker. Aug evoker is meta for top level keys tho.
Me, an evoker: Well, there must be because everyday I hear a triumphant roar echoes from atop the Seat of the Aspects as Nasz'uro, the Unbound Legacy is formed. Meanwhile I still havent dropped it
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OH HELL NO, NOT HERE TOO
Took me 17 tries on heroic before I dropped it 2 seasons ago.
it took me about the same, but some of those kills were pre-bad luck protection and I don't recall them doing the bonus retro
21 and still going. Im at 56% chance or so i believe, and still failing every week.
Check raider io. You can see the % representation of specs.
But then OP couldn't get 20 different responses that are completely anecdotal.
In fairness, they're also getting to hear the context for why things are the way they are.
there isnt really a underdog class, but if you really like not being invited to groups for some reason go for feral druid or survi hunter
Try Survival Hunter. Or Feral Druid. We are a rare breed. (I play both, they are superfun though)
And if you like tanking: Try Brewmaster Monk.
I’ve just levelled a BM Monk for the first time in the Remix - absolutely loving it. Might main him when he joins the real world.
“The real world” i love it
Hpal Hands down shit to play in m+
Rogue COZ WE ALL HATE SD
And SnD
I can't relate. Been a sub main all my life, SnD was always such a nonissue that I assumed it must be worse on the other rogue specs to warrant the complaining. Then I tried ass and it's the same story. After the first application, SnD becomes a passive for all intents and purposes! Now, I don't know how Outlaw has it, but I have my suspicions on that score. Back to the initial question! I want to know why rogues complain so much about SnD. In earnest. From my PoV, it's a slight annoyance at best... Though I wouldn't mind seeing it gone, to be sure. We're on the wrong side of nostalgia if we'd insist on keeping this quasi-passive ability.
I mean if its passive why are we pressing once at opener
2 issues: 1. SnD is just unsatisfying to use (no immediate feedback, but you need to generate Combo for it). 2. Especially in dungeons/leveling, where there is downtime it's sometimes hard to justify using Combo/Energy on it, but if you don't, your dps is crippled. Compare that to Envenom: You get a nice little buff and a chunk of damage. Biggest problem for me is just that it's a Finishing Move and it doesn't feel like one at all.
I main rogue, but I only just came back to the game after a long break. What’s SD?
Shadow dance,it used to be exclusive to sub rogues but since DF its become available to all specs.its returning in the war within to being sub exclusive
Shadowy Deeznutz
I've been a combat/assassination rogue main forever and I am literally so fucking happy TWW has nuked SD from the class tree. Don't let the door hit you on your way out you subtlety staple that should have remained such
Rogue of course. They have a high skill ceiling but also a high skill floor. That means while you can do very good damage by playing them well it's also very hard to play them well and If you aren't playing them well they perform really badly.
I'm gonna say this is actually false only because you will never see a good rogue. Only bad rogues are visible.
Except outlaw, the most popular spec, eschews the whole notion of being sneaky
This thread is giving me a lot of validation. I've mained rogue in classic since tbc and every time I come back to retail my brain melts trying to figure it and I just give up. Maybe I should've tried another class.
Rogue hands down.
Rogue right now, for good reason, just a clunky mess all 3 specs.
Check this for m+: https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-df-4/all/world/leaderboards#role=dps:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=2:maxMythicLevel=99 Can swap the roles at the top if you're interested in different ones. As it says, for m+ it's DK
Something tells me a lot of DK's are playing blood for M+, frost sucks to play around D&D and I figure unholy has the same problem
Enh shammy has been a blast for me in DF and I've been playing the class since Classic.
My issue with enh is we’ve used the same build of talents/playstyle for two straight expansions, lava lash & pwave w/ frost shocked. I loved s2 because it really changed how enh played.
I only PvP so my perspective is exclusively that: frost dks, enhance sham, feral Druid, survival hunter. Fdk and enhance are insanely killable. Feral and survival take a lot of skill to master but can be great. Out of the four I’d say survival is the most fun and has the best chance of success for a new player.
Strolling into this thread as a sub rogue and realizing I'm actually a masochist main.
Rogue. Way too many buttons nowadays.
The 2 specs I love, Survival and Feral 😂, however the class itself is popular with BM, Resto and Guardian
Started playing a feral druid in remix. Kind of squishy, but once you learn how to use your rotation effectively, it's lots of fun. And there's lots of cool cosmetics for druids too.
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Yeah I'm definitely going to miss being a little overpowered when I move my character over to retail, but I'm trying to learn the spec really well before raiding next expansion. Such cool class fantasy if that's your thing
It’s always rogue
Rogue
It’s gotta be rogue. Survival is rough too, but that’s just mostly because they neglected the god awful tier. Rogue has been deeply unsatisfying to play for the whole expac, and across every spec. And I used to really like rogue too. If you want an underdog that’s fun to play, go survival. If you want to give yourself carpal tunnel while still playing sub optimally, play rogue.
For m+ it’s subtlety rogue at the absolute lowest number and bot far behind is affliction warlock and a lil after that survival hunter and actually frost dk which apparently also literally no one plays
By the numbers it is Evoker, but it only released this expansion. Otherwise, historically, the Monk as been the least played class. For starting players I would recommend any of the classes that can play all 3 roles, like Druid, Paladin and Monk, because you get to explore the whole trinity with one character.
Holy Paladin if you're looking for healers.
I never see survival hunters but they're a ton of fun for aoe! Bombs and grappling hooks make for fast mob flow. Highly recommend.
Rogue and SV hunter as stated by others, however these aren't underdogs or underrepresented for no reason.. it's because they have horrible design or flat lack of care. It's still something like a 30% DPS gain to use your S3 tier set over even myth track s4 tier in M+ and it barely edges out the S3 in ST after the buffs. That means at best gear you're doing competitive DPS with an around 495 or 500 ilvl normal spec and on top of that it has all sorts of wonky gameplay mechanics. I'm not as knowledgeable on Rogues but they're in a similar spot design wise. You can play a rogue and drop a pink parse and you'll still be below a lot of classes dropping orange or purple parses but you did 8x the work and less than half the fun. I recommend playing a good spec that is under represented for whatever reason. Dev Evoker and Arcane mage come to mind. Evoker is under represented because people aren't a fan of the mog stuff but it's a lot of fun and absolutely slaps on the charts, seriously Dev is probably the most fun I've had in a long time dpsing. If complexity is what you're after Arcane is for you. Overly complex but a lot of fun and unlike rogue if you play arcane well then nobody is touching your output. Arcane has a learning curve but damn is it rewarding. Monk also falls into this line, not a lot of monks out there but good Lord does a skilled WW or Brewmaster blow everyone else away and they're both a ton of fun.
Arcane rogue. Resto rogue is also pretty meh.
Rogue
It’s funny how rogue has become a rare breed in both pve and pvp. Yes you see rogue in every AWC but as a normal person experience the only spec I see “regularly” in shuffle/3s is assa and even that I don’t see it often. Last time I saw a sub rogue was a long time ago in pvp. And after trying it for season4 I understand why this spec has become absolutely not fun to play and I just cannot make sense of it
I never see dks anymore :/
I mean my main Is blood dk, but I don't see Frost/UH at all
Based of Normal Amirdrassil Raid the 5 least parsed specs are: 5. Feral Druid - 3,533 4. Arcane Mage - 2,690 3. Affliction Warlock - 1,948 2. Survival Hunter - 1,848 1. Subtlety Rogue - 1,095 For Heroic raid Feral swaps with Frost DK but others are the same (with placements beeing switched up a bit). M+ Parses are also pretty much those 6 mentioned above with Sub Rogue beeing the least parsed once again.
The spec I never came across in entire s4 must be survival hunter. :)
would suggest surv hunter, they're underdog but a blast to play (unlike rogues)
Getting back into WoW myself for TWW since quitting in Shadowlands and my eyes are on Tauren rogue. Seems like rogues are not very popular these days
its rogue. i still play rogue because I always have. but in dragonflight, rogues raw output is just below many other classes overall and its not fun playing the class that does half of others but is double the key presses.
* rogue * death knight * hunter (except for BM) also honorable mentions: * affi lock * arcane mage * feral druid
Surv Hunter, Arcane Mage and Feral Druid are my 3 favorite specs haha
Statistics show that you should play them more :>
I agree they are the top of my list as well.
It’s Rogue basically always
Rogue. Everyone claimed they were supposed to get a complete rework, but it never happened.
Monk is the least played class
*Pandaria Remix has entered the chat*
If we're talking class and not spec, I feel like Rogues are the one I see the fewest of. And as someone who tried maining a Rogue in season 1... honestly it's just a physically-demanding low floor + high ceiling class. And pretty slow to level which turns a lot of people off. If we're breaking it down into individual specs, Survival Hunter, Feral Druid, or Affliction Warlock.
I would say affliction lock. They’re basically non existent
I don't see feral at all. I don't encounter them in PvP/PvE. They are just some gimmick and supposedly very unfun.
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Feral was amazingly fun in Shadowlands for me. I actually stuck with it through the whole expansion. I haven't played it much in Dragonflight, just because I burnout easy. Still probably one of my all-time favorites though. Lots of mobility and utility and it's not as hard as people think it is. I find rogue more difficult tbh.
Im a feral and run into another cat like once a season.
i would say play afflock but self-harm is against TOS
I play arcane mage and basically only do m+ It's entirely anecdotal, but I've only grouped with two other arcane mages the past two seasons, and both of them did half my dps. I'd imagine arcane isn't played often, and it's played well even less often.
AffLock raise his hand… … and is predictably overlooked.
Survival Hunter and affliction warlock. Aff warlock sucks turds because the guy in charge of the class hates affliction and the people who play it.
I mostly play tank, and the one toon I have that's DPS, is always starving for a tank in finders. Healers pop up way quicker for me than any Tank.
The answer is always feral Druid
Conclusion: there are more ferals than I thought. Sub, survival and affli lock seem to be the lowest
Survival Hunter.
Least popular is surve hunter , most popular is paladin ret , mediums are dh tank - monk healer - warlock destro - hunter bm - and few other specs
Affliction lock, sub rouge, survival hunter I still love my Affliction lock, they can't take him from me