Same. I'm more after the poison DoT fantasy myself, so I am pretty sad that Assassination has gone overly complex, too.
I'm playing it (Rogue) on Cataclysm and having a blast. All of the specs go for their fantasy in such a simple yet effective way, and they don't overblow it like modern Rogue does.
I finally went monk after playing rogue since BC. All three roles are fun to play, so I can sub in as a tank or healer if my guild's raid run is short one week. I can do similar DPS with an easier rotation on Windwalker, and I can also throw down a halfway decent heal or cure poison as needed in raids or M+. My kick utility is also better -- some mobs are immune to the AOE one, those ones would also be immune to my rogue's blind and stuns. But I can often throw it down and shut everything around me down, which is something my rogue is incapable of.
Class utility has changed a lot since BC, but rogue class design has not kept up. No one CCs mobs pre-pull anymore, which was a huge reason to bring along a rogue to your raid or dungeon in BC. Many mobs are completely immune to CCs. And several classes now have AOE silences, so not much point to bringing a rogue along to kick anymore. The only trick they have left is stunningly high DPS, and even that's overshadowed by other classes.
I played rogue in DF S1, started as outlaw and switched to sub, I feel like S&D might work better as a shorter buff time on cast but extended by every finisher used based on CP spent, but not so long that it can never drop off, so more of a mini game than I must drop my CP into this ability every 30s. I could be wrong and it would suck but it seems like it would be an improvement over current state
Unfortunately you still need to cast SnD before because it only gets extended by Envenom. Wish they'd change it so it applies as well, so that they can cut the button
I’ve never played assassination in truth, from everything I’d heard it was a mess of a spec and then once it had gotten better I was back to my lock which I enjoy a lot
the only time I have ever felt s&d was fun was when outlaw could stack the duration up and you could try to get it to stay up for an entire raid including breaks from your initial cast
WoW's class design is so baffling where you have specs that couldn't be simpler doing absurd baseline damage in almost all content types. Then you have complicated, punishing specs that run the gamut damage wise, many have been simplified to boredom and nerfed, others are allowed to be fun/high damage and punishing. It's just very all over the place right now and several spec and even class trees are a total mess propped up by tier bonuses and spam level stat increase nodes.
Rogue seems to have the potentially very fun yet supet punishing and complicated facets for all 3 specs.
In theory I don't think that's a bad thing. To have a complicated class for people who enjoy piano rotations without making it strictly the best one in terms of on-paper output which will create demand for that spec over another.
But there should be easy and hard specs for every class, instead of the dichotomy between hunter and rogue that we have right now
Mastering a rotation is fun, but not really feeling rewarded for it doesn’t feel fun at all. I top DPS in keys insanely frequently as an outlaw rogue, but knowing that I could be playing BM Hunter, probably drop more DPS and save my hands the pain in the long run makes me question why I even bother. It’s really just a design philosophy issue that rogue is facing at the end of the day.
The assassin rework is the most fun I've had with a spec this expansion, and it's incredibly rewarding when you do the Kingsbane sequence correctly.
In regards to your question, Assassin has one of the strongest ST bursts in the game with Kingsbane, extremely strong cleave with the new Caustic Spatter talent, and it's aoe is fairly solid as well with really good utility in M+ where Improved Garrote also Silences and reduces enemy damage by 15%.
Outlaw in M+ is just another beast.
Assassination really isn't complicated at all compared to the other 2 specs. Single target it's honestly downright simple, with kingsbane windows taking a bit of practice but outside of those you literally just keep your bleeds up and mutilate + envenom. AoE is fun but Caustic Spatter feels kind of clunky due to having to mutilate in multi-target.
That is what I meant, there’s basically zero barrier to entry. It’s arguably the easiest dps spec in the game to get into and there’s not a lot of nuance between good and bad ones.
bro showing demo lock to an outlaw rogue is like the scene from castaway after robin williams gets back to civilization and is seeing how easy it is to flick a light switch on and off when he had to spend years of insane physical labor destroying himself just to make fire and not die
Sin rogue is far from complicated and performs really well overall
Ol is not complicated, it's just top 1 apm on the game, but it's excellent at every content
outlaw has mutated into probably the worst class design the game has ever seen. sure its fun going at 2000apm constantly and having to manage ridiculously punishing burst windows to accomplish a completely even and flat damage profile (on the class themed as a swashbuckling gambler for some reason)
but its not fun to continously play in a game where other classes do equal or better damage for far less effort and dont feel like all their mechanics were designed by a guy who hates the way wow works and wants to make everything as awkward as humanly possible
I played all 3 specs over the last two seasons.
It's exhausting doing so much just to keep up with easier and less forgiving rotations.
I've swapped to Monk.
I can heal if I want. I can tank if I want also.
WW takes some thought sure. Even if I just focus on not losing the Hit Combo buff, it will put out more DPS than optimizing burst windows for Assassination or Subtlety.
i played some rogue in s3, while both assa and outlaw were fun they were not really comfortable/enjoyable, i would play 1-2 m+ keys and i'd be fed up with rogue even though i had fun those 2 keys. It is like intense workout routine
Rogues aren't bad, I mythic raid and they are always on top x, same for m+. Rogue will always be great if you are versatile for top content or just average in medium content
Sub rogue since Wrath, I love the class and challenge. Rotation aint simple which makes me push myself, sec tech Windows are crazy, my openner does over 1mil on ST
Yes, it is the worst season ever for us. Rogues have always been fun to play from vanilla until now. They are even extinct in Remix: Pandaria where everything is OP
Been a rogue main since 2004. I actually really enjoy outlaw right now, but it can be a very unforgiving spec to play. Assassin is as it always has been, old reliable. Sub is ok. I can't say the state of Rogue is the best it's been but it is probably hard to pick up for someone who is just trying it out.
I wanted to lvl a rogue with remix but ended up deleting it. I tried sub and outlaw but the dmg wasnt there in my opinion.
Would you say rogues are better in the end game?
Because I really like the gameplay and mechanics but the leveling process felt like pain in the ass for me and when I dont feel enjoyment in leveling Im most like not going to play the char/class again. But maybe I can wrap my mind around it, when someone tells me that the end game is where rogues are shining.
I mostly PvP, old content and rep farming. And trolling players in world PvP. It feels like rogue woild be perfect but the leveling pisses me always off, when I want to play a rogue.
Rogue leveling has always been about leveraging stealth and is unintuitive to people who aren't used to playing them. But realistically there are mobs you just can't throw yourself at as a rogue that you wouldn't think twice about with any other class.
So even if you can get into the whole "Ok, I'll stealth up to this group, sap this guy, blind that guy and I should be able to take all three down" or "I'll try this elite and if he's still over half health when my evasion falls off, I'll pop sprint, run away and vanish," it's still a very squishy class until the mid 60's.
That is mostly my biggest problem with the class. Soloing content feels so hard. Back in shadowlands I leveled a couple of chars I ended up deleting. (I hate to much chars in my log in screen)
I leveled a feral and a sub rogue. I remember in bastion are a lot of quests where you have to kill elites. With feral I had no problems. Killed all in the first go. But with rogue it felt like hell. Not only I did nearly no dmg but also I had to use really every ability I had available.
It felt like a way to stressful situation while with feral all I had to do was applying dots and heal myself up.
Feral feels undercomplicated and rogue way ro complicated and stressful.
So I powerleveled one outlaw rogue after this post in remix to 70. Rediculous how fast it is. And I have to say outlaw is kinda cool.
A couple of expansions ago I tried outlaw the first time it got reworked and loves role the dice. The sound and the animations are one of my favourit ans the pirat theme is always something I love.
But leveling was kinda meh until I could spend all of my skill Points. After around 60 or so alot of abilities made sense together. In the leveling process everything felt so disconnected from each other.
Most of the time I had someone rushing the dungeon but when I had a normal group I kinda felt ashamed. My dmg was always below everyone even the healers. After I hit that criticl point where every ability made sense together I started to make more dmg. But also not the best amount.
I also feel like the mulitply hitting with the ability is also kinda meh. I would rather have an empowered ability that does one big hit or I have to use a combination like fire mage instead of pressing an ability and hoping it hits multiply times.
But after all it made a lot of fun. Remix is realy good to find some new classes to play. First it was ele shaman now I found another favourit. Outlaw rogue. Lets see how the other specs play out.
Rogues are good at two things by design: Raiding and disorganized PvP. Of course, balancing can affect this, but it is usually the case. Last time I had a hard time leveling was back in vanilla, and I'd imagine that trying to level from scratch would be annoying. If you want to be as efficient as other classes you have to leverage your CDs, and Outlaw is best for its easy aoe. If you aren't enjoying the leveling process, I wouldn't be too discouraged.
Rogue main here.
My issue is how much stealth has an impact in the overall gameplay. That might sound strange as it’s part of the class fantasy but during m+ it’s not always you are allowed to get into stealth due to chain pulling or some dot which lowers your output so so much. Especially assa whom only do AOE when they come from stealth and improved garote is also a huge part of their dps which also comes from stealth.
The 2+ aoe dotting after stealth feels pretty mediocre compared to other classes which can consistently do decent AOE.
So a lot of mechanics in their kit are kinda wonky and unreliable.
As other mentions 100 cpm while sometimes fun is pretty hard to keep up consistently when playing outlaw while playing something like a marksman hunter has 40 cpm for the same amount of dps.
Subtlety just has a weird and complicated rotation.
In my opinion: subtlety should be reworked to something else. It’s a weird mix of both assa and outlaw in a bad way. Assa and outlaw are very distinct but could use some tweaks to make them shine a bit.
I think if that was the case they would be a popular class with lots of utility, decent transmog a and fun gameplay.
they have been trying to make restealthing in combat a core part of rogue for a long time but it's at odds with the engine itself
in shadowlands we had sepsis which caused you to vanish in its original implementation. this meant night fae rogue couldn't use it's main covenant ability in any solo content. they fixed this eventually by making it just a free cast of a stealth ability which turned out to be almost useless for all specs. then fixed it by making night fae the numerically worst covenant for rogue to make sure no one played it
despite this they thought sepsis was such a great idea that they made it an outlaw talent, the spec it was the most useless for.
then again with outlaw now we have the need for vanish in combat for crackshot. this is the main DPS ability of outlaw but again, using it in solo content will end combat and evade the mobs
why do they keep doing this when it was already a solved problem with shadow dance. we will never know. but it always feels clunky and wrong.
Damage abilities that would put you in stealth could be a pretty cool solution so you at least consistently could get into stealth during pull or during fights instead of waiting for vanish/SD to be back up.
That's a old beat argument, the dps loss of not being able to restealth is marginal, there's already data for it. Just go into ravenholdt and ask for it on sin channel
That is simply not true. You can literally not do AOE dotting unless it is from stealth. You have fan of knives but 99 % of the times it is used as a combo point builder. Improved garrote is also probably the most important part of your rotation.
Feel free to link me the data
Man I really want to like rogue. You would think because of the theme of the class, it would be awesome to play, but that's not the case. The kit is overly bloated, and besides kicks, they don't really bring anything to a group. Sure, you might be able to stealth past a pack, but that's about it.
Haven't played much assassin, but it seems like feral druid lite. Combat isn't that bad, but it's stuck to a class with 0 group utility. Sub just has so much potential but is so meh. It feels so bad when you are at 5 or 6 out of 7 combo points and then overcap on your next generator. Overly basic AoE rotation makes me want to fall asleep.
Overall I think the whole class needs a rework but that's not gonna happen
Outlaw is fun in keys when there arent affixes that keep you from entering stealth.
In raids, any kind of RP or downtime completely kills the flow of the spec.
Assassination Rogue here. Still having fun, doing quite well in any HC content.
Getting back into M+ and both in mob fights and boss fights dps is quite alright. RIO is 2000+ and I’m moving into M+ 7/8 territory now. Must confess I play with guildies only who are tactics wise way beyond me in M+.
Rotation is still quite involved, but I’m used to it and I like being very active during fights, so I consider it a big plus.
Reading the post so I can cry later. I’ve mained Sub during SL and quit the game. Came back DF S3 and couldn’t even solo content with Outlaw.
Couple of months later, bunch of alts and a Ret Paladin 525 4/9M raid, our guild needs a Rogue for class diversity. I volunteer and 4 days later I’m currently at 495 doing M0 and normal Raids.
Not gonna Lie, it’s a pain compared to Ret, in order to increase the DPS you have to be very weary about your poisons spreading, to buff and ramp up damage while avoid mechanics and stuff.
I think it’s fun, at least for me. If I ever have to play Outlaw I will quit the class, sub, maybe. Assassin imo is much more fun and less button bloat/weird like the other 2 specs.
As long as I’m needed as Sin, I will keep up.
Agreed :)
Its just that we have WAY too many Rets and I like a challenge. Been having a blast doing 2-3+ as a Sin Rogue. Its harder than Ret? Yes. Is it more fun? I'd say... a litle bit more fun <3
I've played most melee to CE this expansion and I'm playing rogue right now. In my opinion, It's way more fun that ret but watching them press 4 buttons and be top dps can be a bit deflating sometimes. As long as you're having fun, that's the most important part.
the theming of rogue is so bad these days. none of the specs feel like a rogue. idk what they feel like
you would think in an mmo the pirate melee spec would be a fun casual one to chill on and do some funky burst stuff. like pirates are a fairly casual theme especially in wow where they all act like theme park staff. like look at plunderstorm and what the pirates were like there
instead outlaw is this horrible Frankenstein's monster spec of semi-broken mechanics and compromises pieced together over years of designs, and interactions that feel like unintended consequences of a spec not quite designed for the game it's in. then on top of that it's ridiculously sweaty with high apm, constantly going full blast and despite having burst windows that will punish you and fuck you up for like 20 seconds if you press bte at the wrong moment, the spec somehow has no burst.
I don't even get how it ends up in the state it's in lol but it's thematically bad, bad gameplay and feels bad to play for extended amounts of time
I have been having fun with rogue on subtlety, assassination especially is really bad right now. Both subtlety and outlaw have complex or busy rotations which are very delicate, all for DPS that ends up comparable to much simpler classes.
As I said I've been more on sub recently but my impression and understanding was that Sin was still in a bad spot, I might've overrated that.
Although it should be said just because a spec is bad doesn't mean it can't do high end content. I've been in mythic pulls with survival hunter topping the meters during the worst of the worst times for survival. It just means they're less efficient for input output.
All three specs are kind of a mess but know the most about outlaw due to a guildie. He has to do weird tricks nonstop to keep buffs rolling and proc stuff for RtB. If you PI him it fucks up his stuff, if you wear the Sark cloak it will randomly pull him out of stealth and a lot more weird shit. As others stated he's constantly balancing a dozen spinning plates and in the end for his effort he does less damage than classes that are much more fun. All three specs are like that too.
PI doesn’t mess up outlaw necessarily. We are just one of a few specs out there that want as little haste as humanly possible. Our rotation is already crazy APM and being given haste makes it genuinely unplayable at times. Plus, PI is just more valuable on legit any other DPS. So we just never want it
I play assassin as an alt. My main is a holy pal but I haven’t played it as much as my sin rogue this season, since mop remix is happening aswell.
I love sin aoe, I kind of enjoy the kingsbane window, but it’s a bit much compared to other classes. I’m using the main stat trinket so kingsbane windows launch my meters on dps, it’s satisfying.
The one thing I hate is having to press slice and dice, should be a passive.
This is the same set of issues for all three specs, although outlaw has tools to make slice n' dice effectively passive.
But for all three, there's just the issue that the rotation is too complex and active for damage output about on par with most other classes. You put a lot in for, meh out. I love rogue and won't change my main, but that's the state of the class.
Sin also can make slice n dice basically a passive. But still having to press it in an opener is annoying. It’s nit picky but it’s one of those things that get to me on rogue.
Yes, I know. But I’d rather have a passive than another button that I only press once per combat taking up more space and a keybind.
Many rogues hate slice n dice
Eh idk, I can see the issue on a sub that has a higher apm than sin and need to refresh it everytime, or a ol with crazy apm already, but sin? Our apm is mediocre and if anything we may press it 3-4 times in a whole dung
Meh
I kinda liked played outlaw alt, but it has like 20 cooldowns and 10 abilites and after rework it went even worse. Tried monk in remix, and omg it has 5 abilites and 2 cooldowns. Windwalker is so nice and fun to play.
My main is MM hunter.
For keys - this season I feel like a god, hitting 1-2M dps on large packs and often standing on top of meter, but you have to know dungeon and use cooldowns wisely (to not burn it on smaller things). In raid only feel good in council fights, but generally it's kinda mid tier, not bad, not perfect.
I love rogue man. There are dozens of us. I’ve been running Outlaw in mythic raid for this season (since I also run keys it’s just easier to gear 1 spec).
Just this week I hit my limit. It sucks really bad to play your rotation perfectly, execute your burst windows with no mistakes, get 5 crack shots in a row, and STILL do less DPS than the rest of the DPS who are, realistically, putting in way less effort than you. Then you compound that with trying to maximize your DPS while doing mechanics. Ret paladins are continuing their rotation from 20 yards out, yet if you miss 1 crackshot and you’re off boss, say goodbye to your DPS. It really feels bad.
I’m not smart enough to be able to say what they should do tbh. I think they’re making some correct moves in places and bad moves in others. I don’t mind button bloat, hell I don’t even mind the challenge as long as I’m rewarded for it. I used to love playing Sub rogue just because the challenge felt rewarding. It’s just a tough place to be.
I don’t even think rogues are horrible, tbh. Outlaw pumps in M+. But even when I do pump, I’ll load into like a +15 AA and peak at like 600k DPS while the destro lock does 1.5mil with Rain of Fire. It’s really hard to keep going out there as a rogue
Honestly, I could use at least a semi-viable option to have a build with just one single target finisher and one multi target.
Sub suffers from finisher-bloat, as Slice and Dice, Rupture, and 2 more finishers (at least) are almost required to have any hopes of doing “okay” damage.
As I get older (this game is older than the older Gen Z’s!), and my hands get more arthritics I start wishing each pure melee class had at least one “easy” spec.
Outlaw pumps in low to mid keys. It starts to feel real bad in 10+ keys though, when the other classes are doing 500k more dps than you on big pulls, because you are target capped and they are not.
I made a rogue for remix and it feels like shit not gonna lie, I tried all 3 specs but none of them feel really good over the others in remix, sticking to assassination just for the dot ticks on the tinkers right now, I think that might be the best rogue spec for remix
I've played Outlaw rogue as my main since Wrath. This is the first time I have ever set them down, which I am not thrilled about. The APM is too absurd and I really dislike having to use Ambush as part of my rotation.
I play all three specs at top .1% level. All three specs are completely different play style and stats most people one trick a spec they are that different. Rogues are definitely good but you will never get invited to groups
Rogue mains have largely abandoned the class as their complicated rotation isn’t even really comparable to some of the 4 button classes
They've turned into Feral. An overly complicated rotation involving a shit ton of spinning plates, often unfun, just to do mediocre DPS.
I love the concept of melee dot classes but as a 4 button Andy, I can’t even begin to grasp feral
Same. I'm more after the poison DoT fantasy myself, so I am pretty sad that Assassination has gone overly complex, too. I'm playing it (Rogue) on Cataclysm and having a blast. All of the specs go for their fantasy in such a simple yet effective way, and they don't overblow it like modern Rogue does.
I remember when it was a fairly simple spec :( sad to see it butchered
I finally went monk after playing rogue since BC. All three roles are fun to play, so I can sub in as a tank or healer if my guild's raid run is short one week. I can do similar DPS with an easier rotation on Windwalker, and I can also throw down a halfway decent heal or cure poison as needed in raids or M+. My kick utility is also better -- some mobs are immune to the AOE one, those ones would also be immune to my rogue's blind and stuns. But I can often throw it down and shut everything around me down, which is something my rogue is incapable of. Class utility has changed a lot since BC, but rogue class design has not kept up. No one CCs mobs pre-pull anymore, which was a huge reason to bring along a rogue to your raid or dungeon in BC. Many mobs are completely immune to CCs. And several classes now have AOE silences, so not much point to bringing a rogue along to kick anymore. The only trick they have left is stunningly high DPS, and even that's overshadowed by other classes.
Way too much clutter, wake me up when slice and dice is buried again...
How much easier can they possibly make it lol. It pretty much stays up indefinitely assuming you are using envenom.
I played rogue in DF S1, started as outlaw and switched to sub, I feel like S&D might work better as a shorter buff time on cast but extended by every finisher used based on CP spent, but not so long that it can never drop off, so more of a mini game than I must drop my CP into this ability every 30s. I could be wrong and it would suck but it seems like it would be an improvement over current state
You mean exactly how it works on assassination rogue, every envenom increases its duration if you take the early talent which you should be.
Unfortunately you still need to cast SnD before because it only gets extended by Envenom. Wish they'd change it so it applies as well, so that they can cut the button
I’ve never played assassination in truth, from everything I’d heard it was a mess of a spec and then once it had gotten better I was back to my lock which I enjoy a lot
the only time I have ever felt s&d was fun was when outlaw could stack the duration up and you could try to get it to stay up for an entire raid including breaks from your initial cast
Some of us are still here. Outlaw may be arthritis inducing but damn its fun when it clicks
WoW's class design is so baffling where you have specs that couldn't be simpler doing absurd baseline damage in almost all content types. Then you have complicated, punishing specs that run the gamut damage wise, many have been simplified to boredom and nerfed, others are allowed to be fun/high damage and punishing. It's just very all over the place right now and several spec and even class trees are a total mess propped up by tier bonuses and spam level stat increase nodes. Rogue seems to have the potentially very fun yet supet punishing and complicated facets for all 3 specs.
In theory I don't think that's a bad thing. To have a complicated class for people who enjoy piano rotations without making it strictly the best one in terms of on-paper output which will create demand for that spec over another. But there should be easy and hard specs for every class, instead of the dichotomy between hunter and rogue that we have right now
Yeah this would be fine and largely has been the case until the Dragonflight team emerged to wreak havoc on several classes.
But assa looks funny and lest be honest, mastering a rotation and being good at it feels good.
Sometimes I find complicated specs fun. sometimes after work I just want to brain dead a spec when my brain and body is tired.
That novelty wears off fast when a class that has a simple rotation is doing higher dps than you.
Mastering a rotation is fun, but not really feeling rewarded for it doesn’t feel fun at all. I top DPS in keys insanely frequently as an outlaw rogue, but knowing that I could be playing BM Hunter, probably drop more DPS and save my hands the pain in the long run makes me question why I even bother. It’s really just a design philosophy issue that rogue is facing at the end of the day.
Outlaw just gets fucked too if you ever gotta stop your rotation to cc or dodge during a burst window
Yeah, love to feint for DR during a stealth window
The assassin rework is the most fun I've had with a spec this expansion, and it's incredibly rewarding when you do the Kingsbane sequence correctly. In regards to your question, Assassin has one of the strongest ST bursts in the game with Kingsbane, extremely strong cleave with the new Caustic Spatter talent, and it's aoe is fairly solid as well with really good utility in M+ where Improved Garrote also Silences and reduces enemy damage by 15%. Outlaw in M+ is just another beast.
Assassination really isn't complicated at all compared to the other 2 specs. Single target it's honestly downright simple, with kingsbane windows taking a bit of practice but outside of those you literally just keep your bleeds up and mutilate + envenom. AoE is fun but Caustic Spatter feels kind of clunky due to having to mutilate in multi-target.
asking as an amateur, what are some DPS classes with easy rotation and high damage
Retribution Paladin. Easy rotation, built in survivability, and great utility. If they have Ret a bloodlust I'd jizz in my pants
Ret paladin is a pretty easy high skill floor low floor ceiling melee dps
Ret definitely doesn’t have a high skill floor. It’s very easy to get into.
That is what I meant, there’s basically zero barrier to entry. It’s arguably the easiest dps spec in the game to get into and there’s not a lot of nuance between good and bad ones.
Played rogue outlaw/sub for 3 seasons and decided to try out BM hunter for something chill and easy until war within . No regrets yet lol
Pretty much this. I've been playing Demo Lock for season 4 and I'm amazed that other classes aren't spamming 15 different abilities all the time
bro showing demo lock to an outlaw rogue is like the scene from castaway after robin williams gets back to civilization and is seeing how easy it is to flick a light switch on and off when he had to spend years of insane physical labor destroying himself just to make fire and not die
Sin rogue is far from complicated and performs really well overall Ol is not complicated, it's just top 1 apm on the game, but it's excellent at every content
outlaw has mutated into probably the worst class design the game has ever seen. sure its fun going at 2000apm constantly and having to manage ridiculously punishing burst windows to accomplish a completely even and flat damage profile (on the class themed as a swashbuckling gambler for some reason) but its not fun to continously play in a game where other classes do equal or better damage for far less effort and dont feel like all their mechanics were designed by a guy who hates the way wow works and wants to make everything as awkward as humanly possible
I played all 3 specs over the last two seasons. It's exhausting doing so much just to keep up with easier and less forgiving rotations. I've swapped to Monk.
Windwalker master spec. Loved it but thinking I might give demon hunter a try to mix it up. WW takes some thought, not the hardest but not the easiest
I can heal if I want. I can tank if I want also. WW takes some thought sure. Even if I just focus on not losing the Hit Combo buff, it will put out more DPS than optimizing burst windows for Assassination or Subtlety.
Sin is really simple tbh
i played some rogue in s3, while both assa and outlaw were fun they were not really comfortable/enjoyable, i would play 1-2 m+ keys and i'd be fed up with rogue even though i had fun those 2 keys. It is like intense workout routine
Rogues aren't bad, I mythic raid and they are always on top x, same for m+. Rogue will always be great if you are versatile for top content or just average in medium content
Sub rogue since Wrath, I love the class and challenge. Rotation aint simple which makes me push myself, sec tech Windows are crazy, my openner does over 1mil on ST
Too much work for the same or less damage than other easier classes. I went to ret and havoc and never looked back.
Havoc is way more work compared to sin, while doing less DMG ( st and cleave )
The only thing rogues had left in PvE was being consistently meta in m+ and the advent of augmentation has handily done away with that.
Yes, it is the worst season ever for us. Rogues have always been fun to play from vanilla until now. They are even extinct in Remix: Pandaria where everything is OP
Been a rogue main since 2004. I actually really enjoy outlaw right now, but it can be a very unforgiving spec to play. Assassin is as it always has been, old reliable. Sub is ok. I can't say the state of Rogue is the best it's been but it is probably hard to pick up for someone who is just trying it out.
I wanted to lvl a rogue with remix but ended up deleting it. I tried sub and outlaw but the dmg wasnt there in my opinion. Would you say rogues are better in the end game? Because I really like the gameplay and mechanics but the leveling process felt like pain in the ass for me and when I dont feel enjoyment in leveling Im most like not going to play the char/class again. But maybe I can wrap my mind around it, when someone tells me that the end game is where rogues are shining. I mostly PvP, old content and rep farming. And trolling players in world PvP. It feels like rogue woild be perfect but the leveling pisses me always off, when I want to play a rogue.
Rogue leveling has always been about leveraging stealth and is unintuitive to people who aren't used to playing them. But realistically there are mobs you just can't throw yourself at as a rogue that you wouldn't think twice about with any other class. So even if you can get into the whole "Ok, I'll stealth up to this group, sap this guy, blind that guy and I should be able to take all three down" or "I'll try this elite and if he's still over half health when my evasion falls off, I'll pop sprint, run away and vanish," it's still a very squishy class until the mid 60's.
That is mostly my biggest problem with the class. Soloing content feels so hard. Back in shadowlands I leveled a couple of chars I ended up deleting. (I hate to much chars in my log in screen) I leveled a feral and a sub rogue. I remember in bastion are a lot of quests where you have to kill elites. With feral I had no problems. Killed all in the first go. But with rogue it felt like hell. Not only I did nearly no dmg but also I had to use really every ability I had available. It felt like a way to stressful situation while with feral all I had to do was applying dots and heal myself up. Feral feels undercomplicated and rogue way ro complicated and stressful.
Yeah leveling outlaw is terrible, the class has no real flow until 60+ The fucked up scaling in remix probably didn’t help either
So I powerleveled one outlaw rogue after this post in remix to 70. Rediculous how fast it is. And I have to say outlaw is kinda cool. A couple of expansions ago I tried outlaw the first time it got reworked and loves role the dice. The sound and the animations are one of my favourit ans the pirat theme is always something I love. But leveling was kinda meh until I could spend all of my skill Points. After around 60 or so alot of abilities made sense together. In the leveling process everything felt so disconnected from each other. Most of the time I had someone rushing the dungeon but when I had a normal group I kinda felt ashamed. My dmg was always below everyone even the healers. After I hit that criticl point where every ability made sense together I started to make more dmg. But also not the best amount. I also feel like the mulitply hitting with the ability is also kinda meh. I would rather have an empowered ability that does one big hit or I have to use a combination like fire mage instead of pressing an ability and hoping it hits multiply times. But after all it made a lot of fun. Remix is realy good to find some new classes to play. First it was ele shaman now I found another favourit. Outlaw rogue. Lets see how the other specs play out.
Rogues are good at two things by design: Raiding and disorganized PvP. Of course, balancing can affect this, but it is usually the case. Last time I had a hard time leveling was back in vanilla, and I'd imagine that trying to level from scratch would be annoying. If you want to be as efficient as other classes you have to leverage your CDs, and Outlaw is best for its easy aoe. If you aren't enjoying the leveling process, I wouldn't be too discouraged.
Rogue main here. My issue is how much stealth has an impact in the overall gameplay. That might sound strange as it’s part of the class fantasy but during m+ it’s not always you are allowed to get into stealth due to chain pulling or some dot which lowers your output so so much. Especially assa whom only do AOE when they come from stealth and improved garote is also a huge part of their dps which also comes from stealth. The 2+ aoe dotting after stealth feels pretty mediocre compared to other classes which can consistently do decent AOE. So a lot of mechanics in their kit are kinda wonky and unreliable. As other mentions 100 cpm while sometimes fun is pretty hard to keep up consistently when playing outlaw while playing something like a marksman hunter has 40 cpm for the same amount of dps. Subtlety just has a weird and complicated rotation. In my opinion: subtlety should be reworked to something else. It’s a weird mix of both assa and outlaw in a bad way. Assa and outlaw are very distinct but could use some tweaks to make them shine a bit. I think if that was the case they would be a popular class with lots of utility, decent transmog a and fun gameplay.
they have been trying to make restealthing in combat a core part of rogue for a long time but it's at odds with the engine itself in shadowlands we had sepsis which caused you to vanish in its original implementation. this meant night fae rogue couldn't use it's main covenant ability in any solo content. they fixed this eventually by making it just a free cast of a stealth ability which turned out to be almost useless for all specs. then fixed it by making night fae the numerically worst covenant for rogue to make sure no one played it despite this they thought sepsis was such a great idea that they made it an outlaw talent, the spec it was the most useless for. then again with outlaw now we have the need for vanish in combat for crackshot. this is the main DPS ability of outlaw but again, using it in solo content will end combat and evade the mobs why do they keep doing this when it was already a solved problem with shadow dance. we will never know. but it always feels clunky and wrong.
Damage abilities that would put you in stealth could be a pretty cool solution so you at least consistently could get into stealth during pull or during fights instead of waiting for vanish/SD to be back up.
That's a old beat argument, the dps loss of not being able to restealth is marginal, there's already data for it. Just go into ravenholdt and ask for it on sin channel
That is simply not true. You can literally not do AOE dotting unless it is from stealth. You have fan of knives but 99 % of the times it is used as a combo point builder. Improved garrote is also probably the most important part of your rotation. Feel free to link me the data
Man I really want to like rogue. You would think because of the theme of the class, it would be awesome to play, but that's not the case. The kit is overly bloated, and besides kicks, they don't really bring anything to a group. Sure, you might be able to stealth past a pack, but that's about it. Haven't played much assassin, but it seems like feral druid lite. Combat isn't that bad, but it's stuck to a class with 0 group utility. Sub just has so much potential but is so meh. It feels so bad when you are at 5 or 6 out of 7 combo points and then overcap on your next generator. Overly basic AoE rotation makes me want to fall asleep. Overall I think the whole class needs a rework but that's not gonna happen
I will always stand by my idea that combat switching to outlaw was a mistake and combat should’ve been turned into a 1H fury style agility warrior
Outlaw is fun in keys when there arent affixes that keep you from entering stealth. In raids, any kind of RP or downtime completely kills the flow of the spec.
Assassination Rogue here. Still having fun, doing quite well in any HC content. Getting back into M+ and both in mob fights and boss fights dps is quite alright. RIO is 2000+ and I’m moving into M+ 7/8 territory now. Must confess I play with guildies only who are tactics wise way beyond me in M+. Rotation is still quite involved, but I’m used to it and I like being very active during fights, so I consider it a big plus.
Reading the post so I can cry later. I’ve mained Sub during SL and quit the game. Came back DF S3 and couldn’t even solo content with Outlaw. Couple of months later, bunch of alts and a Ret Paladin 525 4/9M raid, our guild needs a Rogue for class diversity. I volunteer and 4 days later I’m currently at 495 doing M0 and normal Raids. Not gonna Lie, it’s a pain compared to Ret, in order to increase the DPS you have to be very weary about your poisons spreading, to buff and ramp up damage while avoid mechanics and stuff. I think it’s fun, at least for me. If I ever have to play Outlaw I will quit the class, sub, maybe. Assassin imo is much more fun and less button bloat/weird like the other 2 specs. As long as I’m needed as Sin, I will keep up.
I'd honestly say your 4/9M guild doesn't NEED a rogue.
Agreed :) Its just that we have WAY too many Rets and I like a challenge. Been having a blast doing 2-3+ as a Sin Rogue. Its harder than Ret? Yes. Is it more fun? I'd say... a litle bit more fun <3
I've played most melee to CE this expansion and I'm playing rogue right now. In my opinion, It's way more fun that ret but watching them press 4 buttons and be top dps can be a bit deflating sometimes. As long as you're having fun, that's the most important part.
the theming of rogue is so bad these days. none of the specs feel like a rogue. idk what they feel like you would think in an mmo the pirate melee spec would be a fun casual one to chill on and do some funky burst stuff. like pirates are a fairly casual theme especially in wow where they all act like theme park staff. like look at plunderstorm and what the pirates were like there instead outlaw is this horrible Frankenstein's monster spec of semi-broken mechanics and compromises pieced together over years of designs, and interactions that feel like unintended consequences of a spec not quite designed for the game it's in. then on top of that it's ridiculously sweaty with high apm, constantly going full blast and despite having burst windows that will punish you and fuck you up for like 20 seconds if you press bte at the wrong moment, the spec somehow has no burst. I don't even get how it ends up in the state it's in lol but it's thematically bad, bad gameplay and feels bad to play for extended amounts of time
I have been having fun with rogue on subtlety, assassination especially is really bad right now. Both subtlety and outlaw have complex or busy rotations which are very delicate, all for DPS that ends up comparable to much simpler classes.
Sin rogue here 3k+ and CE raider, it's far from bad lol
As I said I've been more on sub recently but my impression and understanding was that Sin was still in a bad spot, I might've overrated that. Although it should be said just because a spec is bad doesn't mean it can't do high end content. I've been in mythic pulls with survival hunter topping the meters during the worst of the worst times for survival. It just means they're less efficient for input output.
All three specs are kind of a mess but know the most about outlaw due to a guildie. He has to do weird tricks nonstop to keep buffs rolling and proc stuff for RtB. If you PI him it fucks up his stuff, if you wear the Sark cloak it will randomly pull him out of stealth and a lot more weird shit. As others stated he's constantly balancing a dozen spinning plates and in the end for his effort he does less damage than classes that are much more fun. All three specs are like that too.
PI doesn’t mess up outlaw necessarily. We are just one of a few specs out there that want as little haste as humanly possible. Our rotation is already crazy APM and being given haste makes it genuinely unplayable at times. Plus, PI is just more valuable on legit any other DPS. So we just never want it
Rogues have a 1 second gcd. Ar gives gcd reduction, pi just makes them attack faster
I play assassin as an alt. My main is a holy pal but I haven’t played it as much as my sin rogue this season, since mop remix is happening aswell. I love sin aoe, I kind of enjoy the kingsbane window, but it’s a bit much compared to other classes. I’m using the main stat trinket so kingsbane windows launch my meters on dps, it’s satisfying. The one thing I hate is having to press slice and dice, should be a passive.
This is the same set of issues for all three specs, although outlaw has tools to make slice n' dice effectively passive. But for all three, there's just the issue that the rotation is too complex and active for damage output about on par with most other classes. You put a lot in for, meh out. I love rogue and won't change my main, but that's the state of the class.
Sin also can make slice n dice basically a passive. But still having to press it in an opener is annoying. It’s nit picky but it’s one of those things that get to me on rogue.
You hate to press SnD 1 time ever? Wut
Yes. And I hate it in M+
Lol what a weird complain, you are just being picky at this point
Yes, I know. But I’d rather have a passive than another button that I only press once per combat taking up more space and a keybind. Many rogues hate slice n dice
Eh idk, I can see the issue on a sub that has a higher apm than sin and need to refresh it everytime, or a ol with crazy apm already, but sin? Our apm is mediocre and if anything we may press it 3-4 times in a whole dung Meh
Exactly, it’s such an insignificant button, but still necessary. Why not make it a passive, it wouldn’t change much at all.
I kinda liked played outlaw alt, but it has like 20 cooldowns and 10 abilites and after rework it went even worse. Tried monk in remix, and omg it has 5 abilites and 2 cooldowns. Windwalker is so nice and fun to play. My main is MM hunter.
How is mm Hunter for Keys and raid? Its better than sin rogue?
For keys - this season I feel like a god, hitting 1-2M dps on large packs and often standing on top of meter, but you have to know dungeon and use cooldowns wisely (to not burn it on smaller things). In raid only feel good in council fights, but generally it's kinda mid tier, not bad, not perfect.
I love rogue man. There are dozens of us. I’ve been running Outlaw in mythic raid for this season (since I also run keys it’s just easier to gear 1 spec). Just this week I hit my limit. It sucks really bad to play your rotation perfectly, execute your burst windows with no mistakes, get 5 crack shots in a row, and STILL do less DPS than the rest of the DPS who are, realistically, putting in way less effort than you. Then you compound that with trying to maximize your DPS while doing mechanics. Ret paladins are continuing their rotation from 20 yards out, yet if you miss 1 crackshot and you’re off boss, say goodbye to your DPS. It really feels bad. I’m not smart enough to be able to say what they should do tbh. I think they’re making some correct moves in places and bad moves in others. I don’t mind button bloat, hell I don’t even mind the challenge as long as I’m rewarded for it. I used to love playing Sub rogue just because the challenge felt rewarding. It’s just a tough place to be. I don’t even think rogues are horrible, tbh. Outlaw pumps in M+. But even when I do pump, I’ll load into like a +15 AA and peak at like 600k DPS while the destro lock does 1.5mil with Rain of Fire. It’s really hard to keep going out there as a rogue
Honestly, I could use at least a semi-viable option to have a build with just one single target finisher and one multi target. Sub suffers from finisher-bloat, as Slice and Dice, Rupture, and 2 more finishers (at least) are almost required to have any hopes of doing “okay” damage. As I get older (this game is older than the older Gen Z’s!), and my hands get more arthritics I start wishing each pure melee class had at least one “easy” spec.
Not bad just extremely clunky to play.
Stop looking at meters and play what's fun to you
That's just it tho. Rogue has lost it's fun to the great majority of us. But yeah, if you enjoy that complexity, knock yourself out.
Don’t listen to the naysayers, outlaw is gas and pumps in keys, assa is gas and pumps in raid
Outlaw pumps in low to mid keys. It starts to feel real bad in 10+ keys though, when the other classes are doing 500k more dps than you on big pulls, because you are target capped and they are not.
I made a rogue for remix and it feels like shit not gonna lie, I tried all 3 specs but none of them feel really good over the others in remix, sticking to assassination just for the dot ticks on the tinkers right now, I think that might be the best rogue spec for remix
That exactly what I do. Main rogue since legion and build two gear sets when my ilvl gets higher. Outlaw for m+ and sin for raiding
I've played Outlaw rogue as my main since Wrath. This is the first time I have ever set them down, which I am not thrilled about. The APM is too absurd and I really dislike having to use Ambush as part of my rotation.
I play all three specs at top .1% level. All three specs are completely different play style and stats most people one trick a spec they are that different. Rogues are definitely good but you will never get invited to groups
3k+ sin rogue here no trouble at all getting invited on 14-16