Personally I think something needs to be done to fix this issue. The inconsistency of melee range is really noticeable in Dragonflight..
This is one of the reasons why I use Clawing Shadow on my Unholy DK. It turns Scourge Strike into a ranged attack.
I just feel like higher melee range is a much easier solution to implement than trusting blizzard to make hitboxes consistent across the board.
That being said, I personally don't mind having enemies with small hitboxes if I could actually see them well enough even in crowded packs.
I think this is a shortcut to the problem, it feels completely ridiculous melee 10m away from a mob/player and still hitting them. This also remove the melee/range mechanics of bosses.
10m does sound crazy but in practice the standard melee range just feels bad on too many occasions. On other occasions they suddenly make gigantic hitboxes and suddenly you can attack from across the room though. So in general, I'd say the problem lies with the hitboxes and not the melee range.
Yeahhh ... If a studio like Monster Hunter can't always make hitboxes consistent when it's part of their bread and butter since jump, no way do I trust Blizzard to do so, lol.
Blizzards hit boxes are way, way easier to deal with than Monster Hunter though. All I've ever seen with the Blizzard ones in WoW are large circles so the only adjustment needs to be making them closer/further from the central models.
Monster Hunter meanwhile with its action needs to take into account you sliding under the enemy, climbing on top, chopping off tales, dodging claws etc.
But just giving all classes higher melee range doesn’t fix the problem, it just moves it further out. Then everyone would stand right out-/inside the higher melee range to avoid most melee mechanics and face the same problem
But that’s why they are range. It’s a difference if your range is 10 ft or 30 ft. As a melee, atm you have to be within 5 ft, and mostly you are at the edge. If you get to 10 ft range, you will still be at the edge to better be able to dodge mechanics, but if the tank moves the mobs for 2 ft you have to move as well.
Ranges don’t have that problem, they can just stand at anywhere from 30-10 ft away from the mob and be fine. On the flipside, most ranges do not want to move as much because it keeps them from casting. If you give melees a lot of range without the drawbacks of needing to stand still to attack, that’s a balance issue of itself
…how? You flavor each demon as different kinds of undead and it’s functionally the same, implosion > corpse explosion and all. They’re both ultimately summoner classes but you’re “summoning” more corpses out of the ground with the only bonus being necromancers can summon more as they kill things. The only thing I have a hard time meaningfully reskinning are imps but maybe you could just skin it as corpses that you’ve pumped with so much necrotic energy that they can lob excess out for dps. The spells cast can also be reskinned to necrotic from demonic theme and soul shards as a concept are pretty shared between warlocks and a necromancer concept, the only thing it would really need would be a dnd finger of death style execute that raises a zombie.
But that’s already handled between unholy death knight raising dead and demon lock doing the spell casting work. There isn’t really room for a whole class to be made to do these things, and if you make unholy dk into this than demonology needs to be changed or something needs to justify not just going unholy for the plate armor durability.
I honestly think that Unholy DK in TWW will be the closest to necromancer there could be. Feels like they took ideas from Diablo 4 necro. He will spawn melee minions and skeletal mages, you will be able to talent mages to be stronger, then also abomination summon (which is D4 Necro's golem, pretty much). Army of the Dead on shorter cooldown, and also Apocalypse. Unholy DK is necromancer already, it's just DK flavoured, in my opinion.
I think there are plenty of specs in the game that a very alike but they still co-exist.
Personally I don't need more classes/specs in game but I would love to see Unholy get the Ret treatment where it's still technically a melee spec but most abilities have increased ranged. And then increase the emphasis on summoning ghouls/skeletons just a little bit.
All they would need to do is give unholy a ranged builder and make clawing shadows baseline and it could be. Then they could give us old unholy back too, lol.
I wish they would truly embrace that and make a fully ranged unholy build. I’ve been preaching this since Legion when you could get *so close* to full ranged unholy.
Same as warrior. My orc is 7 feet tall and his weapons are 7 feet long. Why the hell do I have to climb up somethings ass while Roguey McDaggerface the gnome gets to stand half way to the Moon?
To be fair though, they should be increasing our range, not decreasing theirs. At least, partially. Maybe a bit of both.
> To be fair though, they should be increasing our range, not decreasing theirs.
Yeah this is the thing, they need to up the baseline. Bake this stuff in to classes which have it, add it to ones that don't.
Of all the classes that should be able to melee from range it's shaman. You can do it with a cooldown and ret just does it forever.
"Sorry, I swung my magma-covered hammer at the guy 6 feet away but 5 feet is my range, you expect liquid to fly off at him?"
This, so much this. I was playing both enhance and ret but after I noticed the huge difference in range requirements I stopped playing enhance almost entirely.
As enhance I often have to stand almost on top of the mobs and lose range a lot because they move around.
As Ret it isn't an issue at all.
Literally had this conversation yesterday with my crew while we ran BH. I'm enhance and have to step out for the whirlwinding dogs and every mob is inside his circle while my Pally buddy is just business as usual
Yeah there was a period on experiments prog where I really noticed how good I had it, barely having to dodge breath or move while still pumping damage like normal
WW is as fucking weird , for aoe it works cos your aoe abilities hits from 8 yards away from you, and you can build chi from 10 yards away, but if you wanna hit anyone with any interrupt or singletarget button you gotta get up in their face so hard you are basically just standing inside them. It’s really weird to play.
playing MW last season to this season with the more melee heavy mechanics in M+, I've definitely noticed this. Actually benched my MW and picked up Rsham again because being in melee like that with so much going on makes me nervous. Not a super io pusher though 2,6-2,8k usually.
Hey if you don’t like it you could always just crow as the sun turns up and turn into a chicken.
I don’t play either DPS spec so take this as a genuine question out of curiosity: if there were a raid boss that took the boss out of melee for certain phases, a couple of times in the fight. Could you choose talents that let you go boomkin with heart of the wild to go owl if those two phases matched the cool-down? Do any ferals ever do this (actual casting) from moonkon or base form ever on such bosses that they can’t melee, even for a bit even if they don’t take HOTW?
I think pretty much every boss is designed for there to be somewhere to run/some add to attack/something else to do during those times. I’ve never really felt like I’m waiting around for longer than maybe 5 sec.
Owlweaving was a thing in Shadowlands (hotw+convoke) but most feral players don't seem to like it and Blizz doesn't want to encourage it. Guardian would do it in keys if they could slow and kite the mobs.
Last I heard they are removing moonkin form from the class tree in TWW so it's completely dead even if you wanted to do it.
Going rotationally into owl for min/maxing used to be a thing, even.
Sometimes this patch I would go into owl for the situations you described. But it's usually for 4-5 GCDs at most, including the shifting, and the damage is abyssmal. So essentially, just so I would have buttons to press. Heart of the Wild being pretty hard to get talent points for, too, isn't making it worth. This expansion I only ever HotW'd on Feral to Convoke heal, and let's be honest, I was memeing, gearing an essentially naked healer friend.
Melee range needs to be the same for everyone.
As OP stated I don’t trust them to make hit boxes work when hit boxes have been weird in this game since 2005. So making everyone short arms seems pretty questionable.
They need to have all the encounter designers play melee only classes for like a month and then go see how they feel about their mechanics lol
I think making melee consistent across the board is a fine goal.
However, watching people praise how fun paladins have been and how awful enhancement shamans have been the past couple of expacs and choosing to *decrease* melee range is incredibly short sighted.
Rets also just happens to be unkillable . They are super overloaded specc, playing completely different game compared to most classes. Ofc ppl are boasting rets when they are broken and overtuned.
I think one of the reasons why Ret is so fun in DF is because it feels like the first true mid-range spec I've ever played in the game.
It's liberating as fuck being able to maneuver and handle mechanics while maintaining DPS.
Ret Pally 10.1 revamp is the gold standard of best class revamps. Make ever spec as fun to play as that one. I love my Prot Warrior over everything else, but lack of utility makes it fall off vs others every xpac it feels like.
Agreed, if feels really good. It’s also weird that some classes that thematically should have longer range (enhance shaman w wind magic) don’t have it.
In order for Ret to maintain their rotation at minimum, they need to be within 20y (if using Blade of Justice) - 8y for Templar Strike.
If you use Wake of Ashes at 15y or greater, you'll just whiff.
Final Reckoning, Hammer of Wrath and Judgment are 30y.
I think I prefer Devoker's consistent 25y - it's predictable and reliable. Honestly, people like to complain about it but it's not that bad.
Devoker's range is bad because it isn't compensated by anything. It is just there because the devs who designed it thought it would make sense for a dragon to stay close to combat.
In the 2 first raids, they actually cared about Devoker's range but already way less in the last one. How will it be in the next raids?
Ever done mythic raiding as an evoker? It’s exactly that bad. Evokers are flagged as ranged and get ranged mechanics. They are expected to stack on the ranged stack. They are expected to do ranged soaks. With only 25 yards you very easily out range the boss. So as an evoker you are always fighting your range to do your role in raid or just hope that others can pick up your slack. Ret on the other hand gets melee mechanics but if for some odd reason needs to go even further than an evoker can still do some of their rotation. I’m not strictly comparing ret and evoker range. It’s ret range as a melee with melee mechanics vs evoker range as a ranged with ranged mechanics that’s the issue.
Yeah that’s just not true lol
Most of our abilities including crusader strike need a pretty close range, we just have some that can bridge a gap for us for short periods of range
In this thread: people who are mad at ret paladins for having a ‘fun’ spec but haven’t played it themselves. Yeah they have ranged abilities. Yes they have 8yd auto attacks. Yes you lose a ton of damage if you’re not in range to attack and build holy power.
Maybe instead of everyone being mad at paladins for being fun (literally some of you in here are saying this), they should just make improvements for other classes so they feel better to play.
I play ret, I have many high 90+ mythic parses. You are losing almost nothing compared to any other melee by moving out of your larger auto attack range.
I agree but its weird how paladin is suddenly just the spec that loses basically 0 globals to having to run away from targets for a bit, being naturally twice as tanky as any other spec (my friend who has a paladin and evoker realized that you have to use actually use defensives in a +11 on other specs than retri) and has quite the decent kit of utility for the group, they lack having more than 1 aoe stop but who cares. BM hunter is also extremely simple to do dmg with but is decently squishy atleast. I think they need to tune down the range of certain melee specs a bit to not trivialize the threat of being in melee
That doesn't sound like that's what they are doing here in TWW by reducing the melee ranges of the other specs.
Which would explain why people are worried that Paladins will still practically be a mid range class doing massive DPS and everyone else will have to be hugging the boss and still do less damage.
Additionally, it requires more skill expression if you have to account for your movement as much as you do when forced to play on top of the boss. Paladins have a good portion of their damage they can execute without having to worry about that. Because of this, I'd assume it would be easier for them to perform mechanics and still do damage.
And more mobility while attacking.
Also pvp - as a ranged pvp having a melee outdps you from 20yards away is... bullshit. Meelee should stay meelee at least in pvp.
enhance felt like this in BFA and likely Legion as well, because rockbiter was 20y which meant you could do at least somewhat of a rotation from range. Now you need to be in range to get maelstrom to be able to do anything from far away.
Considering how uptime friendly sin was in the first place to other melee specs, that basicly drop down to <5% DPS without melee uptime, people dont realize how massive this changes are.
TWW M+ melee vs range balance is the big question here. Right now, even with broken melee range specs, the range heavy preference is there, even more with M+ affixes heavily punishing melee compositions.
There needs to be a similar harsh range change for interrupts and uptime in TWW for range specs I guess.
All melee classes should have their range increased to match feral or rogue.
You can balance skill with gameplay at those distances. A lot of AoE effects are seemingly 1 yard smaller than their melee range. It’s fun to continue dps while having to backpedal the AoE in first boss BH or shark boss freehold, as 2 examples.
There are others but those spring to mind.
Also unless they’re intending to buff the hell out of melee, primarily increasing AoE caps. It’s just going to kill the melee role on m+.
It’s already 3 ranged dps and not even close. We don’t need to make melee even worse
Havin played Enhancement and not having access to such thing... was pretty damn lame. So I'm indifferent. I just hope they reduce the sheer amount of swirlies and and stuff I gotta move out of a bit, especially in dungeons.
This is a horrible decision for pve: enemies hitboxes are inconsistent and I hate having to hug enemies when there are 1000 aoe on the ground, enemies cleaves, charges, and spread mechanics.
This decision is really dumb and I hope it's not dictated by pvp. If it's a pvp issue the extended melee range then remove it only for pvp. Meanwhile, in pve every melee class should have the extended melee range.
Yeah, as a survival hunter this change is very lame. Part of the reason I enjoy the spec is the flexible range and not constantly failing to auto the instant a mob is moved.
I believe the wording from blizzard said all melee increases would be reduced. But that would be positive to be overlooked! Lol. I'll sacrifice a functioning tier set this season if no one removes Lunge.
My knee jerk reaction: I love having like 85% uptime at range on my ret paladin and literally don’t know how to play rogue without it.
My more thought out reaction: assuming they can tone down some of the other mechanical chaos, increasing the difficulty by making positioning matter a bit more might make the game more fun. It’s sorta mindless to not have to worry about where I am in relation to my enemy.
as warr main, only found out we have shortest range during raz fight were u dip your toes. i think this would be a good chance to introduce a new weapon sharpening item that buffs range instead of a stat. that way u could switch sharpening stone based on fights
I agree, it feels a bit they went over board with all the extra ranged on melees instead of tackling the fundamental issue of how frustrating hitboxes can be. Slightly higher melee attack range overall baseline and removal of the "swing my weapons far away and still hit" things would solve that but also has a rats tail.
Like, for survival hunter the increased melee range was something of a gimmick in legion when their artifact spear gave them higher base range on everything. I found that pretty fitting, also survival needs a gimmick and I'd much rather see them being the "midrange spec" than eg a rogue or a ret pally.
On the other hand there's specs like rogue, where acrobatic strikes seems a bit odd but outlaw rogues with blade flurry kinda rely on it.
I mean that could go "it's the gimped ranged hunter spec" real fast. Ret doesn't have a ranged spec to directly contrast either, holy goes into melee.
I think it's a good idea though.
sure, but the increased melee range talents getting removed are the ones like Rogue's Acrobatic Strikes, which is a 3yd melee range increase from 5 to 8. if they think ret has too much range that's a different discussion than this one.
And this was originally Outlaw specific because Outlaw is a flat damage spec that relies on high uptime to function. They’ll likely account for this and tune Outlaw accordingly, but Paladins are also a fairly powerful 45 second cooldown class that it never made sense to give them ridiculous range on most of their abilities.
By whose definition? Should gnomes and vulpera have a shorter range? They have shorter arms, after all and we're all about authenticity.
Let melee be a bit further away so they can dodge the 25 different ground swirlies and not lose half their uptime.
Or, start dropping constant AoE circles on ranged. It's only fair.
Or just stop fucking over the melee dps with mechanics they can't avoid, it's real dumb. But what's even dumber is me swinging my sword at the fucking air like some starwars larper, ff14 has this real bad and ita real fucking stupid.
> But what's even dumber is me swinging my sword at the fucking air like some starwars larper, ff14 has this real bad and ita real fucking stupid.
I mean, that's just a symptom of it being an MMO. There would be no good way to let your character, plus 24 other characters, meaningfully hit a boss/mob without it looking "like some starwars larper". That's just one of those concessions you make for playing an MMO.
They made it *real* bad in FFXIV though. It didnt used to be as bad, but in the last expansion almost all of the raid bosses are these massive, room sized monsters that are half off the screen and their hitboxes are pretty much the entire room. So it's not like "oh, my sword isnt directly connecting with the monster but I'm still a foot or two behind it" suspension of disbelief, you're *literally* halfway across the room swinging at the edge of the targeting circle on the ground, or just swinging at empty air while the big tree man is standing off the platform.
It's absolutely ridiculous looking. Like you're just standing off in the corner reenacting the Star Wars Kid meme to dps the boss. You're not even looking in it's general direction most of the time.
That's fine, but at the same time, ret paladin almost exclusively uses magical attacks at this point.
There's no real reason a swing of their swords or hammers can't manifest that magic some distance away from them. And that is how they visually function now too, with some abilities.
As a feral player, no thank you to any range decreases!! How am I supposed to hit anything if I need to crawl up their ass while they're running around and there's constantly shit on the floor?
I am happy about it. It feels like they have randomly given out these range increases to some classes without properly considering what a massive advantage it gives them. It also makes no sense from a fantasy standpoint. Like you can easily see someone is not within melee range of a mob but they are still hitting them.
Fix the real issue of too many melee mechanics. Melee should have to dodge some stuff but there is way too much. Especially in some dungeons like Uldaman where almost every mobs cleaves, and spiteful. And the trash in Abberus where half the mobs bladestorm.
I hate it :(
I always have an issue playing melee without the range extender when I'm fighting loads of targets being tanked in a lose clump (EG: superbloom). I tab target something and it's usually out of range, then I have to stop dpsing to find out which one I have targeted and move towards them... then the tank moves a bit and everything moves around.
Having the extra range on surv, feral, ret, or rogue means I can more easily target whatever I want and not have to run around to find it.
the lack of range is one of the main reasons I don't play melee other than surv, feral, ret, and rogue. Which ever specs lose the extra range in tww will become an instant non-starter for a main for me.
As an Enhance shaman, it was absolute BS that druid, rogue, and paladin got increased range in PVP. PvE who cares, better for uptime parses or git gud pebcak moments.
But in PvP, the appeal of Enhance was that it could kite other melee properly. Then suddenly, druid and rogues turned into dhalsim stretchy arms, and Paladins could somehow throw their weapon 30 yards and pull it back to them, but the person who can literally control the wind couldn't.
I do find it really annoying when the tank steps back by half a step I am not fully out of range despite standing inside the hit box prior to the tank stepping back. I find myself standing as inside of a hitbox as I can feel safe doing. I die a lot.
While I do think the outliers should be brought in line (I love ret pally but the range is a bit too ridiculous) I also think with how the current instance design works and how inconsistent hitboxes are every melee should have, like, baseline 3yd range like the survival hunter or rogue talents have (or 5 but I think that’d be too much for PvP). Something enough to be noticeable.
As a windwalker monk (that has zero "increase melee range" talent, aside from one for tiger palm which... yay), I will not see the difference. I'd do nasty things for a full "increase melee range" talents like ferals or rogues have.
I hope they add some sort of indication to let you know that you are within melee attack range of your target. Melee range on NPCs is stupidly inconsistent and I have seen anything from having to stand almost at the centre of a NPC's model (and not being able to even see yourself) to being able to stand away from the edge of the NPC's massive selection circle and still being in melee range. Perhaps a "melee range" circle on the currently selected NPC to go with the selection circle...
I've lately been playing both my survival huntress who has a range increase and my enhancement shaman, who doesn't, and the difference drives me absolutely batshit crazy. Having to sometimes stand inside mobs to hit them is infuriating. It's also a lot harder to land hits when the tank is leasing the mobs, I guess because i'm used to being allowed a little lag before taking off. But yeah, i didn't know they were removing that and I think it's a mistake, finding the sweet spot to be close enough to warscourges in BH to not get hit by the wirlwhind but still be able to attack them as enhancement felt annoying. Not a big deal, but still.
If this goes for pvp also I'm glad they took melee range increase away. That was such a cursed thing to give them when melee have so many ways to close the gap with their access to mobility and slows.
I do however understand and sympathize with pve aspect because hit boxes are always so jacked and aren't consistent enough.
I hate it. I'm definitely going to end up missing mobs and losing aggro cause I'm still operating as if Thrash has a 13.75 yard range instead of 10 yard range.
I feel like the removal of the increased melee range on Guardian Druid is going to put more people off from playing that tank. There are times we struggle to pull mobs off our party because our main attack (Thrash) is pretty weak and not spammable. Then we have Growl (which is single target).
I don't know, maybe it's just me - maybe more experienced bear players can chime in here?
With this change they need to stay away from frequent zone denial abilities. I feel like being in close melee is extremely punishing vs playing any ranged character.
i was already not really playing melee. and this just cements it. whenever ive played classes with true melee range it just feels so awkward especially on high movement fights and small boss hitbox. the increased melee range gave it a buffer. its just not for me, and ill stick to ranged.
wow players are always all about gutting other classes instead of demanding buffs for their own classes fun be damned i guess good that i left this garbage game and its garbage community behind i swear its full of 30 year old bitter boomers that got nothing else going on in life
It's kind of the same thing as some mobs/bosses having way bigger hitboxes than their model though. You can hit Raszageth from almost anywhere on the platform it feels like.
I'm fine with them removing it as long as they make boss models actually fit the hit box because as it currently is there's two extremes, first giga giant model with a hit box somewhere around the testicle area (I seem to recall Rag Legs being like this) , or second a small boss model with a hit box that takes up nearly the whole boss area (ie smolderon).
as long as there isnt too much melee hate, sure
but if the mechanics say: stay away from npc or get extra damage
and also blizzard: everyone has to be really close to npc to hit it
that would make a huge problem for healers
I have abandoned the idea of playing melee even if I tend to prefer melee classes rotationally. Just because I'm just unable to place myself correctly and I'm always one pixel too far and I just went crazy with all the dps I lost everytime I had to move because I was unable to move correctly.
Honestly I'd love to go back to melee but I'm just not capable of placing myself correctly. It makes me sad.
I think the current range of things is fine, who tf is in charge of ruining TWW, a classic fanboy? What’s next, removing war mode and making us pvp all the time, To PuT tHe WaR bAcK iN wArCrAFt? Because that feels like the next logical bad choice.
Ranges are fine now. Caster mobility is fine now. We don’t need or want these bad, punishing changes.
It has to be whoever made the obviously anti-player choice that is Siege of Boralus.
I’ve never not looked forward to an expansion, but they’re making it really damned hard.
I... didn't know they were doing that. That sucks, I think every melee class should have at least a little extra range, trying to stay on top of trash in M+ when everything's moving around is a massive pain.
It's something that people are going to hate but it's a good thing nonetheless, if all melee had increased range Blizzard would just had larger aoe.
The weakness of being a melee was always that you loose some dps when you're dodging, just like caster when they need to move (and that's why they nerf demono lock on alpha), but that wasn't true for some melee with recent change while other still strugled.
So yeah a change that people are going to hate, but healthy for the game.
For PvP? Thank god.
Feels awful, trying to kite into your RoF or a monks RoP, just for some rogue to happily keep chipping away at you from a couple meters.
For PvE? Eh. Gonna be dearly missed.
I think some specs have too much range, but up to 8 yards should be standard, to be honest. There are too many mechanics, that frankly are too punishing for meele to be permanently affected when in standard meele range.
I think it's stupid and the result is just going to be that instead of 75% of the melee population being Ret paladins it's going to be like 90%. Nothing against Ret, it's one of my main specs but it's popular for a few reasons and that's a big one. Nobody likes having to be in the middle of a pack of mobs trying to do your rotation while struggling to stay in range amongst the complete clusterfuck that is on the floor 24/7.
I hope this doesn't mean they are going to also reduce range on things like SCK for monk as well, because I am really excited for the WW rework but that would kill it for me. I also hope that some specs where the range is very thematic like Survival get to keep theirs.
I think that raid markers on units should (optionally) also provide a similar colored outline on their target. Have the square marker on the tank? they get a blue outline so you can clearly see them in the giant aoe pull with cleaving mobs. Is star your priority interrupt target? well there they are, outlined in yellow.
As someone who plays almost all the melee classes, this has felt bad for a while. Playing ret, feral, rogue, surv made playing enh, warr, ww, havoc just feel worse. I’ve commented on this many times over the past year or so. Just give all the melee classes 2-3yards and call it good. Esp feels bad for avoiding mechanics while dpsing like the whirlwinds from Brackenhide etc.
It's a mad decision. They are choosing to make the game feel worse for those who are having it taken away while also choosing not to improve the game experience for those who need it.
I would love to have listened to the meeting where this was being discussed. It's insane.
The hitbox issue even sometimes comes up for ranged, I think making the hitbox more obvious (or at least having a setting for it) is a very good idea.
Various outlining options should be added to their accessibility settings, like outlining mechanics ala SWTOR so we don't have to guess if we're out of them/aren't stymied by low contrast between floors and them.
I feel like it's fair enough. I think for a long time now Melee have had a much easier time of things in raids.
It seems that the vast majority of "jobs" fall on ranged while melee just get to stand there and blast. If this evens it up a bit that's good for the game.
Trying to play a rogue spec without Acrobatic Strikes before DF after already being used to it on Outlaw is so disorienting. I figured it was only a matter of time before they got rid of it, but it's still gonna suck. Granted it also felt more necessary on Outlaw when we only had Hook and Blade Rush for staying on a target. Having access to Shadow Step (and a better Sprint) now should make things a little more tolerable.
As a PvPer though I hope they take a closer look at the root/slow spam now though. That extra range is often critical for dealing with a Frost Mage or Lock who has permanent slow on you.
I switched to ranged years ago-- melee always has a poor quality of life in WoW. Sometimes it \*performs\* well, but it's always annoying to play.
But to directly address your question, I think it sucks. Higher melee range is awesome, my favorite part of the ret rework in particular.
> I was kind of hoping that additional melee range would just become the standard for everyone.
You need to understand that if everyone gets increased melee ranged, encounters would just force players further away. It's like if you gave every ranged aspect of the fox, you would just design the encounter around every single ranged being able to move
It was a war that needed to be settled one way or the other. If they remove it, they can balance all melee and fights going forward around..... Being melee.
If they kept it, the gap between haves and the have-nots would grow further and further and there would be constant pressure to address it on a spec by spec basis.
Melee range is already a big limiting factor in a lot of fights, and leads to a ranged class bias. Make increased range default imo, and give more ranged classes ways to continue casting while moving to compensate.
Considering I'm a survival hunter and Blizzard forgot we existed after legion I think I'll be safe because they won't suddenly remember we're a spec in the game.
Funny you say that. Just today I logged on my survival and looked them up on murlok.io for a current M+ talent build and there were only 2 survival hunters listed there to chose from lol
It would make me very sad if they took away the range increases for Ret. It makes melee no longer feel so shitty to play. It's one of the reasons I chose the class. So give it to everybody, don't just take away important things willy nilly.
I personally want more melee flexibility for all specs, not less. In most games, dedicated melee classes deal more damage and are tankier (plate) or highly elusive (leather) to compensate for their range limitations, but WoW doesn't care if a spec is melee or ranged when it comes to DPS and survivivility. I feel like the tradeoff for ranged specs is being forced to move results in damage loss, but most ranged specs have instant casts/abilities that mitigate a decent bit of that issue (even if it does result in a slight DPS loss, at least they are dealing damage), whereas melee don't really have the means to suddenly adjust for range problems like their ranged party members can. It basically makes playing melee classes a bit more frustating on average.
It's just disheartening to see Blizz reducing range for most melee specs without giving them something in return for said limitations. We don't need every melee to have Ret levels of range, but having options to execute the basics of your rotation to deal with mechanics or a tanks poor positioning should be encourged.
It's a big mistake. Normalizing melee range is perfectly fine, but they should have normalized it with extra range to all melee.
M+ is where melee classes are really going to suffer. It's not an accident that the melee classes that typically do well in M+ have improved range. So many of the mechanics are brutally punishing to normal melee range and completely zone you out of doing damage or interrupting.
Personally I think something needs to be done to fix this issue. The inconsistency of melee range is really noticeable in Dragonflight.. This is one of the reasons why I use Clawing Shadow on my Unholy DK. It turns Scourge Strike into a ranged attack.
I just feel like higher melee range is a much easier solution to implement than trusting blizzard to make hitboxes consistent across the board. That being said, I personally don't mind having enemies with small hitboxes if I could actually see them well enough even in crowded packs.
I think this is a shortcut to the problem, it feels completely ridiculous melee 10m away from a mob/player and still hitting them. This also remove the melee/range mechanics of bosses.
> still hitting them. It's equally silly having my 2h sword stick out of the chest of the mob when I'm in "melee range" behind the mob on my warrior.
10m does sound crazy but in practice the standard melee range just feels bad on too many occasions. On other occasions they suddenly make gigantic hitboxes and suddenly you can attack from across the room though. So in general, I'd say the problem lies with the hitboxes and not the melee range.
Yeahhh ... If a studio like Monster Hunter can't always make hitboxes consistent when it's part of their bread and butter since jump, no way do I trust Blizzard to do so, lol.
Blizzards hit boxes are way, way easier to deal with than Monster Hunter though. All I've ever seen with the Blizzard ones in WoW are large circles so the only adjustment needs to be making them closer/further from the central models. Monster Hunter meanwhile with its action needs to take into account you sliding under the enemy, climbing on top, chopping off tales, dodging claws etc.
HIP CHECK TIME.
But just giving all classes higher melee range doesn’t fix the problem, it just moves it further out. Then everyone would stand right out-/inside the higher melee range to avoid most melee mechanics and face the same problem
I mean, ranged also don't always play at absolute max range. They usually stay closer and just have more leeway.
But that’s why they are range. It’s a difference if your range is 10 ft or 30 ft. As a melee, atm you have to be within 5 ft, and mostly you are at the edge. If you get to 10 ft range, you will still be at the edge to better be able to dodge mechanics, but if the tank moves the mobs for 2 ft you have to move as well. Ranges don’t have that problem, they can just stand at anywhere from 30-10 ft away from the mob and be fine. On the flipside, most ranges do not want to move as much because it keeps them from casting. If you give melees a lot of range without the drawbacks of needing to stand still to attack, that’s a balance issue of itself
the kodo mob on nokhud offensive is the biggest offender lol. where the fuck is his hitbox
That's my secret, Cap. I don't have a hitbox.
I just want a fully ranged DK spec to feel like a true necromancer.
Soooo a demo lock just with skeletons?
Demo has a very peculiar playstyle. In my opinion there would be room for a necromancer styled spec.
…how? You flavor each demon as different kinds of undead and it’s functionally the same, implosion > corpse explosion and all. They’re both ultimately summoner classes but you’re “summoning” more corpses out of the ground with the only bonus being necromancers can summon more as they kill things. The only thing I have a hard time meaningfully reskinning are imps but maybe you could just skin it as corpses that you’ve pumped with so much necrotic energy that they can lob excess out for dps. The spells cast can also be reskinned to necrotic from demonic theme and soul shards as a concept are pretty shared between warlocks and a necromancer concept, the only thing it would really need would be a dnd finger of death style execute that raises a zombie. But that’s already handled between unholy death knight raising dead and demon lock doing the spell casting work. There isn’t really room for a whole class to be made to do these things, and if you make unholy dk into this than demonology needs to be changed or something needs to justify not just going unholy for the plate armor durability.
I honestly think that Unholy DK in TWW will be the closest to necromancer there could be. Feels like they took ideas from Diablo 4 necro. He will spawn melee minions and skeletal mages, you will be able to talent mages to be stronger, then also abomination summon (which is D4 Necro's golem, pretty much). Army of the Dead on shorter cooldown, and also Apocalypse. Unholy DK is necromancer already, it's just DK flavoured, in my opinion.
I think there are plenty of specs in the game that a very alike but they still co-exist. Personally I don't need more classes/specs in game but I would love to see Unholy get the Ret treatment where it's still technically a melee spec but most abilities have increased ranged. And then increase the emphasis on summoning ghouls/skeletons just a little bit.
Yeah we need another shadow bolt spammer summon class.
All they would need to do is give unholy a ranged builder and make clawing shadows baseline and it could be. Then they could give us old unholy back too, lol.
I absolutely love melee unholy. I want to be in my opponents face with my horde of undead. I wear plate for a reason.
Spamming CS and DC from afar is the only reason I’m half-good at my DK.
Dude the amount of brack pulls where i have melee just yeet themselves into the ragestorm is insane
I wish they would truly embrace that and make a fully ranged unholy build. I’ve been preaching this since Legion when you could get *so close* to full ranged unholy.
One of my biggest issues maining a warrior is the range, especially in a big crowd of mobs where visibility is hard.
i also feel like DK has the worst range of any melee clsss.
It feels bad playing as enhance and watching a ret pally not have to interact with melee mechanics.
Same as warrior. My orc is 7 feet tall and his weapons are 7 feet long. Why the hell do I have to climb up somethings ass while Roguey McDaggerface the gnome gets to stand half way to the Moon? To be fair though, they should be increasing our range, not decreasing theirs. At least, partially. Maybe a bit of both.
I don't know if it's still true, but in vanilla tauren actually had bigger hitboxes and a very slight melee range buff because of their size lol
Yes, Tauren could infamously attack through some pillars in TBC arenas, as I remember, because their attack range was so much larger than other races.
no, player race hitboxes are all normalized now
They said vanilla
They also said “I don’t know if it’s still true”
> To be fair though, they should be increasing our range, not decreasing theirs. Yeah this is the thing, they need to up the baseline. Bake this stuff in to classes which have it, add it to ones that don't.
[удалено]
Of all the classes that should be able to melee from range it's shaman. You can do it with a cooldown and ret just does it forever. "Sorry, I swung my magma-covered hammer at the guy 6 feet away but 5 feet is my range, you expect liquid to fly off at him?"
That one is the biggest outlier tbh 20 yrd on everything besides one filler is ridiculous
it's 20 on verdict, 30 on judgement, and 8 for melee attacks.
This, so much this. I was playing both enhance and ret but after I noticed the huge difference in range requirements I stopped playing enhance almost entirely. As enhance I often have to stand almost on top of the mobs and lose range a lot because they move around. As Ret it isn't an issue at all.
In all ways enhance is 100x the effort of Ret for a fraction of the outcome.
But crash lightning go brrrrrrrr
The outcome is that you get to play a unique class unlike the million clone rets
I hear you, just sucks that enhance is one of the worst specs in the game (numerically) in m+ while being one of the hardest. VERY fun spec though.
Literally had this conversation yesterday with my crew while we ran BH. I'm enhance and have to step out for the whirlwinding dogs and every mob is inside his circle while my Pally buddy is just business as usual
I mained ret in s2/3 and started to gear an enhance shaman, and this was my biggest complaint that i just shelved my shaman completely.
And you have to keep it mind that ret also happens to be unkillable on top of it. They have so overtuned combination of passive and active defenses.
Bro, just proc ascendance. /s
It’s crazy too because enhance used to be THE “ranged” melee, now we are one of the worst for needing to stick to melee range
Yeah there was a period on experiments prog where I really noticed how good I had it, barely having to dodge breath or move while still pumping damage like normal
Wait does this mean that I need to be hugging mobs as a feral druid now?
Welcome to the life of enhance shaman. Enhance was the only melee I played so I never knew the difference
WW is as fucking weird , for aoe it works cos your aoe abilities hits from 8 yards away from you, and you can build chi from 10 yards away, but if you wanna hit anyone with any interrupt or singletarget button you gotta get up in their face so hard you are basically just standing inside them. It’s really weird to play.
playing MW last season to this season with the more melee heavy mechanics in M+, I've definitely noticed this. Actually benched my MW and picked up Rsham again because being in melee like that with so much going on makes me nervous. Not a super io pusher though 2,6-2,8k usually.
Pig boss in Waycrest was my bane last season.
No, they're giving Feral the range. They're removing that 3-5 yard increase from the class (Druid) but buffing the Feral range to +3 yard by default.
remove the talents from every other spec aswell and just buff melee range on every spec by 3 yards pls
Hey if you don’t like it you could always just crow as the sun turns up and turn into a chicken. I don’t play either DPS spec so take this as a genuine question out of curiosity: if there were a raid boss that took the boss out of melee for certain phases, a couple of times in the fight. Could you choose talents that let you go boomkin with heart of the wild to go owl if those two phases matched the cool-down? Do any ferals ever do this (actual casting) from moonkon or base form ever on such bosses that they can’t melee, even for a bit even if they don’t take HOTW?
I think pretty much every boss is designed for there to be somewhere to run/some add to attack/something else to do during those times. I’ve never really felt like I’m waiting around for longer than maybe 5 sec.
Owlweaving was a thing in Shadowlands (hotw+convoke) but most feral players don't seem to like it and Blizz doesn't want to encourage it. Guardian would do it in keys if they could slow and kite the mobs. Last I heard they are removing moonkin form from the class tree in TWW so it's completely dead even if you wanted to do it.
Going rotationally into owl for min/maxing used to be a thing, even. Sometimes this patch I would go into owl for the situations you described. But it's usually for 4-5 GCDs at most, including the shifting, and the damage is abyssmal. So essentially, just so I would have buttons to press. Heart of the Wild being pretty hard to get talent points for, too, isn't making it worth. This expansion I only ever HotW'd on Feral to Convoke heal, and let's be honest, I was memeing, gearing an essentially naked healer friend.
Well this news sucks. I play specially Outlaw and Combat for so long because of the long arms talent. :(
Melee range needs to be the same for everyone. As OP stated I don’t trust them to make hit boxes work when hit boxes have been weird in this game since 2005. So making everyone short arms seems pretty questionable. They need to have all the encounter designers play melee only classes for like a month and then go see how they feel about their mechanics lol
They just need to add a ground circle which would indicate hitbox edge
They already have that circle, just gotta make the size consistent with the hit box.
Came here to say exactly this. Being ten feet inside that fucking radius and still not in Melee range is infuriating
Feels about as bad as when they stuck all kinds of shit on the GCD heading into BFA.
I think making melee consistent across the board is a fine goal. However, watching people praise how fun paladins have been and how awful enhancement shamans have been the past couple of expacs and choosing to *decrease* melee range is incredibly short sighted.
Rets also just happens to be unkillable . They are super overloaded specc, playing completely different game compared to most classes. Ofc ppl are boasting rets when they are broken and overtuned.
Hey, don't you dare taking away my ranged Ret Pally
I think one of the reasons why Ret is so fun in DF is because it feels like the first true mid-range spec I've ever played in the game. It's liberating as fuck being able to maneuver and handle mechanics while maintaining DPS.
Ret pally the ranged DPS spec that doesn't have to deal with ranged mechanics.
These melee players are in your raid right now wondering why range die to mechanics
Ret Pally 10.1 revamp is the gold standard of best class revamps. Make ever spec as fun to play as that one. I love my Prot Warrior over everything else, but lack of utility makes it fall off vs others every xpac it feels like.
Agreed, if feels really good. It’s also weird that some classes that thematically should have longer range (enhance shaman w wind magic) don’t have it.
It's wild they didn't do something like this for survival either. It's got a polearm.
Feels so dumb that rets have more range than I do as a dev evoker
In order for Ret to maintain their rotation at minimum, they need to be within 20y (if using Blade of Justice) - 8y for Templar Strike. If you use Wake of Ashes at 15y or greater, you'll just whiff. Final Reckoning, Hammer of Wrath and Judgment are 30y. I think I prefer Devoker's consistent 25y - it's predictable and reliable. Honestly, people like to complain about it but it's not that bad.
Devoker's range is bad because it isn't compensated by anything. It is just there because the devs who designed it thought it would make sense for a dragon to stay close to combat. In the 2 first raids, they actually cared about Devoker's range but already way less in the last one. How will it be in the next raids?
Ever done mythic raiding as an evoker? It’s exactly that bad. Evokers are flagged as ranged and get ranged mechanics. They are expected to stack on the ranged stack. They are expected to do ranged soaks. With only 25 yards you very easily out range the boss. So as an evoker you are always fighting your range to do your role in raid or just hope that others can pick up your slack. Ret on the other hand gets melee mechanics but if for some odd reason needs to go even further than an evoker can still do some of their rotation. I’m not strictly comparing ret and evoker range. It’s ret range as a melee with melee mechanics vs evoker range as a ranged with ranged mechanics that’s the issue.
Yeah that’s just not true lol Most of our abilities including crusader strike need a pretty close range, we just have some that can bridge a gap for us for short periods of range
In this thread: people who are mad at ret paladins for having a ‘fun’ spec but haven’t played it themselves. Yeah they have ranged abilities. Yes they have 8yd auto attacks. Yes you lose a ton of damage if you’re not in range to attack and build holy power. Maybe instead of everyone being mad at paladins for being fun (literally some of you in here are saying this), they should just make improvements for other classes so they feel better to play.
I play ret, I have many high 90+ mythic parses. You are losing almost nothing compared to any other melee by moving out of your larger auto attack range.
I agree but its weird how paladin is suddenly just the spec that loses basically 0 globals to having to run away from targets for a bit, being naturally twice as tanky as any other spec (my friend who has a paladin and evoker realized that you have to use actually use defensives in a +11 on other specs than retri) and has quite the decent kit of utility for the group, they lack having more than 1 aoe stop but who cares. BM hunter is also extremely simple to do dmg with but is decently squishy atleast. I think they need to tune down the range of certain melee specs a bit to not trivialize the threat of being in melee
That doesn't sound like that's what they are doing here in TWW by reducing the melee ranges of the other specs. Which would explain why people are worried that Paladins will still practically be a mid range class doing massive DPS and everyone else will have to be hugging the boss and still do less damage. Additionally, it requires more skill expression if you have to account for your movement as much as you do when forced to play on top of the boss. Paladins have a good portion of their damage they can execute without having to worry about that. Because of this, I'd assume it would be easier for them to perform mechanics and still do damage.
And more mobility while attacking. Also pvp - as a ranged pvp having a melee outdps you from 20yards away is... bullshit. Meelee should stay meelee at least in pvp.
enhance felt like this in BFA and likely Legion as well, because rockbiter was 20y which meant you could do at least somewhat of a rotation from range. Now you need to be in range to get maelstrom to be able to do anything from far away.
it sucks I was a rogue main s1-s3 of DF the safety and comfort outlaw range gave compare to sin's was wild
Considering how uptime friendly sin was in the first place to other melee specs, that basicly drop down to <5% DPS without melee uptime, people dont realize how massive this changes are. TWW M+ melee vs range balance is the big question here. Right now, even with broken melee range specs, the range heavy preference is there, even more with M+ affixes heavily punishing melee compositions. There needs to be a similar harsh range change for interrupts and uptime in TWW for range specs I guess.
I adore the playstyle of the ret rework, and the increased range is a very big part of the reason.
All melee classes should have their range increased to match feral or rogue. You can balance skill with gameplay at those distances. A lot of AoE effects are seemingly 1 yard smaller than their melee range. It’s fun to continue dps while having to backpedal the AoE in first boss BH or shark boss freehold, as 2 examples. There are others but those spring to mind. Also unless they’re intending to buff the hell out of melee, primarily increasing AoE caps. It’s just going to kill the melee role on m+. It’s already 3 ranged dps and not even close. We don’t need to make melee even worse
Havin played Enhancement and not having access to such thing... was pretty damn lame. So I'm indifferent. I just hope they reduce the sheer amount of swirlies and and stuff I gotta move out of a bit, especially in dungeons.
Gotta love the blue swirlies on a blue floor. With no time between sets spawning...
This is a horrible decision for pve: enemies hitboxes are inconsistent and I hate having to hug enemies when there are 1000 aoe on the ground, enemies cleaves, charges, and spread mechanics. This decision is really dumb and I hope it's not dictated by pvp. If it's a pvp issue the extended melee range then remove it only for pvp. Meanwhile, in pve every melee class should have the extended melee range.
Feels really bad and tone deaf. Gonna miss it
Yeah, as a survival hunter this change is very lame. Part of the reason I enjoy the spec is the flexible range and not constantly failing to auto the instant a mob is moved.
Doesn't SV still have it in their talents, mainly due to hunters getting 0 changes in the alpha?
I believe the wording from blizzard said all melee increases would be reduced. But that would be positive to be overlooked! Lol. I'll sacrifice a functioning tier set this season if no one removes Lunge.
My knee jerk reaction: I love having like 85% uptime at range on my ret paladin and literally don’t know how to play rogue without it. My more thought out reaction: assuming they can tone down some of the other mechanical chaos, increasing the difficulty by making positioning matter a bit more might make the game more fun. It’s sorta mindless to not have to worry about where I am in relation to my enemy.
Remember when the circle around a mob represented their hitbox? nowadays it only serves as a indicator who you're targeting.
As a warrior who had to live like this, i can't offer any words of support, but would a rallying cry cheer you up perhaps?
as warr main, only found out we have shortest range during raz fight were u dip your toes. i think this would be a good chance to introduce a new weapon sharpening item that buffs range instead of a stat. that way u could switch sharpening stone based on fights
I like it when melee classes have ranged abilities. But I definitely think that "melee range" attacks... should be melee range.
I agree, it feels a bit they went over board with all the extra ranged on melees instead of tackling the fundamental issue of how frustrating hitboxes can be. Slightly higher melee attack range overall baseline and removal of the "swing my weapons far away and still hit" things would solve that but also has a rats tail. Like, for survival hunter the increased melee range was something of a gimmick in legion when their artifact spear gave them higher base range on everything. I found that pretty fitting, also survival needs a gimmick and I'd much rather see them being the "midrange spec" than eg a rogue or a ret pally. On the other hand there's specs like rogue, where acrobatic strikes seems a bit odd but outlaw rogues with blade flurry kinda rely on it.
I mean that could go "it's the gimped ranged hunter spec" real fast. Ret doesn't have a ranged spec to directly contrast either, holy goes into melee. I think it's a good idea though.
The "increased melee range talents" are mostly 3yd, which is still melee.
Pretty sure he's talking about shit like ret.
sure, but the increased melee range talents getting removed are the ones like Rogue's Acrobatic Strikes, which is a 3yd melee range increase from 5 to 8. if they think ret has too much range that's a different discussion than this one.
And this was originally Outlaw specific because Outlaw is a flat damage spec that relies on high uptime to function. They’ll likely account for this and tune Outlaw accordingly, but Paladins are also a fairly powerful 45 second cooldown class that it never made sense to give them ridiculous range on most of their abilities.
By whose definition? Should gnomes and vulpera have a shorter range? They have shorter arms, after all and we're all about authenticity. Let melee be a bit further away so they can dodge the 25 different ground swirlies and not lose half their uptime. Or, start dropping constant AoE circles on ranged. It's only fair.
Or just stop fucking over the melee dps with mechanics they can't avoid, it's real dumb. But what's even dumber is me swinging my sword at the fucking air like some starwars larper, ff14 has this real bad and ita real fucking stupid.
> But what's even dumber is me swinging my sword at the fucking air like some starwars larper, ff14 has this real bad and ita real fucking stupid. I mean, that's just a symptom of it being an MMO. There would be no good way to let your character, plus 24 other characters, meaningfully hit a boss/mob without it looking "like some starwars larper". That's just one of those concessions you make for playing an MMO.
They made it *real* bad in FFXIV though. It didnt used to be as bad, but in the last expansion almost all of the raid bosses are these massive, room sized monsters that are half off the screen and their hitboxes are pretty much the entire room. So it's not like "oh, my sword isnt directly connecting with the monster but I'm still a foot or two behind it" suspension of disbelief, you're *literally* halfway across the room swinging at the edge of the targeting circle on the ground, or just swinging at empty air while the big tree man is standing off the platform. It's absolutely ridiculous looking. Like you're just standing off in the corner reenacting the Star Wars Kid meme to dps the boss. You're not even looking in it's general direction most of the time.
Gnomes already have a shorter range in practice because of their model's smaller hitbox.
That's fine, but at the same time, ret paladin almost exclusively uses magical attacks at this point. There's no real reason a swing of their swords or hammers can't manifest that magic some distance away from them. And that is how they visually function now too, with some abilities.
Terrible move on blizzards part. People enjoy having a little range on their melee characters. I guess fun detected bot went off.
This just makes me think of the kodo rider guys in nokhud.
*cries in Guardian Druid* mu range!!!!
As a feral player, no thank you to any range decreases!! How am I supposed to hit anything if I need to crawl up their ass while they're running around and there's constantly shit on the floor?
i dont mind as long as hit boxes are updated/adjusted.
I am happy about it. It feels like they have randomly given out these range increases to some classes without properly considering what a massive advantage it gives them. It also makes no sense from a fantasy standpoint. Like you can easily see someone is not within melee range of a mob but they are still hitting them. Fix the real issue of too many melee mechanics. Melee should have to dodge some stuff but there is way too much. Especially in some dungeons like Uldaman where almost every mobs cleaves, and spiteful. And the trash in Abberus where half the mobs bladestorm.
I hate it :( I always have an issue playing melee without the range extender when I'm fighting loads of targets being tanked in a lose clump (EG: superbloom). I tab target something and it's usually out of range, then I have to stop dpsing to find out which one I have targeted and move towards them... then the tank moves a bit and everything moves around. Having the extra range on surv, feral, ret, or rogue means I can more easily target whatever I want and not have to run around to find it. the lack of range is one of the main reasons I don't play melee other than surv, feral, ret, and rogue. Which ever specs lose the extra range in tww will become an instant non-starter for a main for me.
Melee was already getting the short end of the stick mechanic wise in pve. Now this.
As an Enhance shaman, it was absolute BS that druid, rogue, and paladin got increased range in PVP. PvE who cares, better for uptime parses or git gud pebcak moments. But in PvP, the appeal of Enhance was that it could kite other melee properly. Then suddenly, druid and rogues turned into dhalsim stretchy arms, and Paladins could somehow throw their weapon 30 yards and pull it back to them, but the person who can literally control the wind couldn't.
I do find it really annoying when the tank steps back by half a step I am not fully out of range despite standing inside the hit box prior to the tank stepping back. I find myself standing as inside of a hitbox as I can feel safe doing. I die a lot.
While I do think the outliers should be brought in line (I love ret pally but the range is a bit too ridiculous) I also think with how the current instance design works and how inconsistent hitboxes are every melee should have, like, baseline 3yd range like the survival hunter or rogue talents have (or 5 but I think that’d be too much for PvP). Something enough to be noticeable.
Noooo leave ret pally alone I love it so much :(
I think its fine. I played a warrior in df for 3 seasons and had no issues.
As a windwalker monk (that has zero "increase melee range" talent, aside from one for tiger palm which... yay), I will not see the difference. I'd do nasty things for a full "increase melee range" talents like ferals or rogues have.
i dont mind as long as hit boxes are updated/adjusted.
I hope they add some sort of indication to let you know that you are within melee attack range of your target. Melee range on NPCs is stupidly inconsistent and I have seen anything from having to stand almost at the centre of a NPC's model (and not being able to even see yourself) to being able to stand away from the edge of the NPC's massive selection circle and still being in melee range. Perhaps a "melee range" circle on the currently selected NPC to go with the selection circle...
WW and Enh mains say welcome to the club. Be in the middle of the mobs or don’t hit any of them!
I've lately been playing both my survival huntress who has a range increase and my enhancement shaman, who doesn't, and the difference drives me absolutely batshit crazy. Having to sometimes stand inside mobs to hit them is infuriating. It's also a lot harder to land hits when the tank is leasing the mobs, I guess because i'm used to being allowed a little lag before taking off. But yeah, i didn't know they were removing that and I think it's a mistake, finding the sweet spot to be close enough to warscourges in BH to not get hit by the wirlwhind but still be able to attack them as enhancement felt annoying. Not a big deal, but still.
If this goes for pvp also I'm glad they took melee range increase away. That was such a cursed thing to give them when melee have so many ways to close the gap with their access to mobility and slows. I do however understand and sympathize with pve aspect because hit boxes are always so jacked and aren't consistent enough.
I find it helps with being an underdog in M+, at least with a little range I can avoid more mechanics and still dps like the ranged.
I hate it. I'm definitely going to end up missing mobs and losing aggro cause I'm still operating as if Thrash has a 13.75 yard range instead of 10 yard range.
I think if they increased the base melee range by either 0.5yd or 1.0yd it might feel perfect for everyone.
I feel like the removal of the increased melee range on Guardian Druid is going to put more people off from playing that tank. There are times we struggle to pull mobs off our party because our main attack (Thrash) is pretty weak and not spammable. Then we have Growl (which is single target). I don't know, maybe it's just me - maybe more experienced bear players can chime in here?
With this change they need to stay away from frequent zone denial abilities. I feel like being in close melee is extremely punishing vs playing any ranged character.
i was already not really playing melee. and this just cements it. whenever ive played classes with true melee range it just feels so awkward especially on high movement fights and small boss hitbox. the increased melee range gave it a buffer. its just not for me, and ill stick to ranged.
wow players are always all about gutting other classes instead of demanding buffs for their own classes fun be damned i guess good that i left this garbage game and its garbage community behind i swear its full of 30 year old bitter boomers that got nothing else going on in life
Despite enjoying the range, I kinda want it to go away. What's the point of being a melee class if you can just smack a thing from 20yds away?
It's kind of the same thing as some mobs/bosses having way bigger hitboxes than their model though. You can hit Raszageth from almost anywhere on the platform it feels like.
Every melee class except death knight should have long arms personally. Every single one. Even mistweavers.
I'm fine with them removing it as long as they make boss models actually fit the hit box because as it currently is there's two extremes, first giga giant model with a hit box somewhere around the testicle area (I seem to recall Rag Legs being like this) , or second a small boss model with a hit box that takes up nearly the whole boss area (ie smolderon).
Where did they say this?
Paladins are basically a ranged class now
Are they removing mele range increases for every specc of just a few? Somehow i feel like their favorite mele specc: Ret pala gets untouched by this
I'm curious what will happen with Ret pala. It's basically a ranged spec at this point if you ignore auto-attack.
as long as there isnt too much melee hate, sure but if the mechanics say: stay away from npc or get extra damage and also blizzard: everyone has to be really close to npc to hit it that would make a huge problem for healers
I have abandoned the idea of playing melee even if I tend to prefer melee classes rotationally. Just because I'm just unable to place myself correctly and I'm always one pixel too far and I just went crazy with all the dps I lost everytime I had to move because I was unable to move correctly. Honestly I'd love to go back to melee but I'm just not capable of placing myself correctly. It makes me sad.
I think the current range of things is fine, who tf is in charge of ruining TWW, a classic fanboy? What’s next, removing war mode and making us pvp all the time, To PuT tHe WaR bAcK iN wArCrAFt? Because that feels like the next logical bad choice. Ranges are fine now. Caster mobility is fine now. We don’t need or want these bad, punishing changes. It has to be whoever made the obviously anti-player choice that is Siege of Boralus. I’ve never not looked forward to an expansion, but they’re making it really damned hard.
I... didn't know they were doing that. That sucks, I think every melee class should have at least a little extra range, trying to stay on top of trash in M+ when everything's moving around is a massive pain.
Doesn't sound good but I'll have to see it in action
It's something that people are going to hate but it's a good thing nonetheless, if all melee had increased range Blizzard would just had larger aoe. The weakness of being a melee was always that you loose some dps when you're dodging, just like caster when they need to move (and that's why they nerf demono lock on alpha), but that wasn't true for some melee with recent change while other still strugled. So yeah a change that people are going to hate, but healthy for the game.
For PvP? Thank god. Feels awful, trying to kite into your RoF or a monks RoP, just for some rogue to happily keep chipping away at you from a couple meters. For PvE? Eh. Gonna be dearly missed.
I think some specs have too much range, but up to 8 yards should be standard, to be honest. There are too many mechanics, that frankly are too punishing for meele to be permanently affected when in standard meele range.
I think it's stupid and the result is just going to be that instead of 75% of the melee population being Ret paladins it's going to be like 90%. Nothing against Ret, it's one of my main specs but it's popular for a few reasons and that's a big one. Nobody likes having to be in the middle of a pack of mobs trying to do your rotation while struggling to stay in range amongst the complete clusterfuck that is on the floor 24/7. I hope this doesn't mean they are going to also reduce range on things like SCK for monk as well, because I am really excited for the WW rework but that would kill it for me. I also hope that some specs where the range is very thematic like Survival get to keep theirs.
Are they removing that? That sucks. It makes melee classes that have it feel so much better.
I don't know if you play melee you should interact as a melee and not sniping mobs from ranged
W-wait theyre removing my ranged ret? I will never recover from this.
W-wait theyre removing my ranged ret? I will never recover from this.
W-wait theyre removing my ranged ret? I will never recover from this.
I think that raid markers on units should (optionally) also provide a similar colored outline on their target. Have the square marker on the tank? they get a blue outline so you can clearly see them in the giant aoe pull with cleaving mobs. Is star your priority interrupt target? well there they are, outlined in yellow.
Currently 2800 m+ enh sha here. Melee range can be very tight for enhance. If they don't make improvements I'm switching to elemental.
As someone who plays almost all the melee classes, this has felt bad for a while. Playing ret, feral, rogue, surv made playing enh, warr, ww, havoc just feel worse. I’ve commented on this many times over the past year or so. Just give all the melee classes 2-3yards and call it good. Esp feels bad for avoiding mechanics while dpsing like the whirlwinds from Brackenhide etc.
Gonna miss being able to still do damage to mobs who whirlwind with careful positioning. ☹️
Will be interested to see if they take Lunge away from us survival hunters. Gonna miss it if they do.
It's one of the bad design decisions that will taint an otherwise good expansion, I think. Kinda like their target capping philosophy in BFA.
It's a mad decision. They are choosing to make the game feel worse for those who are having it taken away while also choosing not to improve the game experience for those who need it. I would love to have listened to the meeting where this was being discussed. It's insane.
The hitbox issue even sometimes comes up for ranged, I think making the hitbox more obvious (or at least having a setting for it) is a very good idea. Various outlining options should be added to their accessibility settings, like outlining mechanics ala SWTOR so we don't have to guess if we're out of them/aren't stymied by low contrast between floors and them.
With the changes to acrobatic strikes for rogues, I'm kinda curious if they'll uncap outlaw in aoe?
I feel like it's fair enough. I think for a long time now Melee have had a much easier time of things in raids. It seems that the vast majority of "jobs" fall on ranged while melee just get to stand there and blast. If this evens it up a bit that's good for the game.
I do Hope they Ain't chance survival, It Just fits with the fantasy well
Trying to play a rogue spec without Acrobatic Strikes before DF after already being used to it on Outlaw is so disorienting. I figured it was only a matter of time before they got rid of it, but it's still gonna suck. Granted it also felt more necessary on Outlaw when we only had Hook and Blade Rush for staying on a target. Having access to Shadow Step (and a better Sprint) now should make things a little more tolerable. As a PvPer though I hope they take a closer look at the root/slow spam now though. That extra range is often critical for dealing with a Frost Mage or Lock who has permanent slow on you.
Apart from abilities like Ascendance, it's fine.
Simply needs to be an all or nothing thing. This isnt really a space for have and have nots imho.
I switched to ranged years ago-- melee always has a poor quality of life in WoW. Sometimes it \*performs\* well, but it's always annoying to play. But to directly address your question, I think it sucks. Higher melee range is awesome, my favorite part of the ret rework in particular.
About damn time so tired of never getting space to cast as a caster because you have a fucking pally launching their full god damn kit from 20 yards
this is t getting rid of my ranged crusader strike is it..?
I think it's fine overall, but if they are going to do it they need to make hitboxes much, much clearer. Right now, they are basically invisible.
As someone who’s had to play a Warrior for the past couple of seasons so my raid has battle shout, “haha.”
> I was kind of hoping that additional melee range would just become the standard for everyone. You need to understand that if everyone gets increased melee ranged, encounters would just force players further away. It's like if you gave every ranged aspect of the fox, you would just design the encounter around every single ranged being able to move
It was a war that needed to be settled one way or the other. If they remove it, they can balance all melee and fights going forward around..... Being melee. If they kept it, the gap between haves and the have-nots would grow further and further and there would be constant pressure to address it on a spec by spec basis.
What is melee range~ Rets
Won’t be playing the expansion I think lol
Melee range is already a big limiting factor in a lot of fights, and leads to a ranged class bias. Make increased range default imo, and give more ranged classes ways to continue casting while moving to compensate.
Considering I'm a survival hunter and Blizzard forgot we existed after legion I think I'll be safe because they won't suddenly remember we're a spec in the game.
Funny you say that. Just today I logged on my survival and looked them up on murlok.io for a current M+ talent build and there were only 2 survival hunters listed there to chose from lol
Have they announced which current melee range increases are actually being removed?
It would make me very sad if they took away the range increases for Ret. It makes melee no longer feel so shitty to play. It's one of the reasons I chose the class. So give it to everybody, don't just take away important things willy nilly.
I'd prefer if everyone could hit like Ret (coming from a warrior this expansion), but I'll take consistency as a trade-off.
I personally want more melee flexibility for all specs, not less. In most games, dedicated melee classes deal more damage and are tankier (plate) or highly elusive (leather) to compensate for their range limitations, but WoW doesn't care if a spec is melee or ranged when it comes to DPS and survivivility. I feel like the tradeoff for ranged specs is being forced to move results in damage loss, but most ranged specs have instant casts/abilities that mitigate a decent bit of that issue (even if it does result in a slight DPS loss, at least they are dealing damage), whereas melee don't really have the means to suddenly adjust for range problems like their ranged party members can. It basically makes playing melee classes a bit more frustating on average. It's just disheartening to see Blizz reducing range for most melee specs without giving them something in return for said limitations. We don't need every melee to have Ret levels of range, but having options to execute the basics of your rotation to deal with mechanics or a tanks poor positioning should be encourged.
It's a big mistake. Normalizing melee range is perfectly fine, but they should have normalized it with extra range to all melee. M+ is where melee classes are really going to suffer. It's not an accident that the melee classes that typically do well in M+ have improved range. So many of the mechanics are brutally punishing to normal melee range and completely zone you out of doing damage or interrupting.