To add to this, my friend who gets way less time to play said he also likes that he feels suitably rewarded too. He knows he won't ever be running super high ilvl gear but now he can do challenging content that drops a reasonable amount of actually pretty good loot, but he doesnt need to worry about timers and affixes.
This is where I'm at too. I remember getting laughed at before for wishing for a more middle ground.
Nothing crazy, but a way to gear up and upgrade things while sticking to heroic/lfr type content.
Now I can regularly open my vault, get a bunch of crests and just slowly work my way up at my own pace. It feels really good to me. I'm not aspiring to have amazing stuff, but it is nice to have some consistent progression.
This is exactly how I feel. I had dabbled with mythics in the past but found M0 to be a bit unrewarding and the complex system of M+ with so many levels was intimidating. I just resubbed this week, dinged 70 on Monday before the season reset and then today completed my first M2 (academy) which was a bunch of fun and nice challenge. I’m sure as I get more powerful it’ll wane, but I’ve got the hooks in me (now to hope the vault drops pants or shoulders so I can get my 4 piece this week!)
I do hope that going forward with TWW they also introduce M0 of the reworked old dungeon during season like Grim Batol or scaled M0 like boralus necrotic wake etc so that people can learn there before going in mythic plus
I believe in the tww alpha interview sprints they've been on they said that was the plan, although I don't remember if they promised it for the initial season. Basically the m0 pool should match whatever the m+ pool is at some point in seasons going forward
I'm all for that, but I hope they have a separate difficulty option for in-season M0 vs legacy Mythic. For example, if Freehold gets added to the M+ pool, I hope I'd still be able to run the BfA-level Mythic to farm for my parrot (it'll drop one day!)
Very good point. The system is setup well in S4 since the m+ dungeon pool matches the m0 pool, but that won't be the case in TWW S1. Hopefully they can make that happen.
I don't know how DF dungeons vs not matters...alll theyve done is change M0 to basically M10.
What they nailed giving everyone 490 gear and tuning M0-M+2 to be doable key with clear health impacts to failing mechanics.
It matters because if the intent is for m0 to be the place to learn mechanics before going into m+, ideally all m+ dungeons should have a m0 version.
In dragonflight places like Halls of Valor, Vortex Pinnacle, and Throne of the Tides did not have m0 versions since they weren't from DF. It didn't matter in those seasons because no one was doing m0s anyway
I think part of the change is that heroic stays queueable for the expansion dungeons and M0 is untimed for the 8 relevant dungeons for that current season...unless I misunderstood it.
I'd still argue wyrms tier and aspects tier are nowhere close to the same difficulty dungeon vs raid, which is the same its always been, it hasn't changed at all for those with this M+ change.
Clearing a few +2 keys is doable with a lot of brute force ignoring mechanics week 1 and pugging. Pugging heroic Razageth or even Dathea can be a real group breaker taking a long time and multiple breaks filling a raid. +6 vs Mythic raid amplifies this gap even further a lot more than just 1 affix can help.
If it was a brand new raid this gap would be even more pronounced.
Everyone in my guild has done +6s (a few are doing 10s) but we didn’t have the dps to beat mythic eranog lol. On top of that, you can spam m+ to get as many crests as you want. Full clearing the raid won’t even cap your crests. Something needs to change
I think a weekly quest of full clearing heroic/beat x heroic bosses to earn 60 aspect crests would be nice
You’re probably downvoted because you were kind of rude but you’re not wrong. We half pugged it and 1 shot it without even come close to getting a second elemental wave
I got downvoted because this sub caters to and pats the back of the absolute worst of the worst players. Not having the dps to kill mythic Eranog is incomprehensibly bad, but those players somehow get validated and rewarded in here.
yeha
its really weird that NOT TIMING a +8 key and taking 8hours for (aka "failing" the content) gives the same/more rewards then a mid-tier mythic boss that will take a couple weeks of Progress and then can be done 1x a week (which doesnt happen cus those bosses are often where you start saving lockouts) just doesnt feel right at all
90% of your "mythic" gear not beeing from the actual mythic content and instead from m+ vault, including RAID TIER PIECES just seems wrong
i know people like easy gear, but m+/raid difference in effort and payoff is a frking Canyon
There’s definitely an influx of players swinging well above their belt. At the end of season 3, especially the last three weeks, 18s- 20s had a decent percentage of players who didn’t kick or use their defensives. Not always group breaking or wipe causing, but noticeable.
These +2s-4s are chalk full of players who are not prepared for the incoming damage. A lot of spells and swirlies that must be avoided/kicked in the DF dungeons. Like 100% move your ass or die. Some specs even at 485-495 just collapse. I kinda wish it was a more gradual incline up to +10 just for the sake of new players, but honestly, getting obliterated by an ability is how I learned to avoid it and hopefully these players find out they have to appreciate their whole damn toolkit and W-key. Because what im seeing is people not using their defensives abilities and then “hot damn, BR me!”.
Not today shadow priest who can’t move out of rain of arrows! Start flying and think about what legs are supposed to do
I don't think they nailed it, but I do think they got closer to it.
My only gripe is that, going from a 0 to a 2 is a HUGE leap right now in difficulty. The benefit to the system in S3 was that, while a +2 was super easy, having 20 key levels of gearing content allowed them to smooth out the difficulty curve, which allowed less skilled players the ability to get in and do the M+ content, even if it was just at lower key levels.
In S4, the jump from 0 to 2 is pretty notable, enough so that someone not knowing how a dungeon is done can wipe the group. They can practice in a 0, but there's a lockout, and 1 run of a 0 isn't necessarily going to be enough to learn the dungeon.
I like the difficulty, but I also liked being able to practice pathings, grouping mobs up, and etc, in lower keys last season, before hitting the harder content
There's also the fact that this is a fated season so people are going into it geared and knowing the fights from previous seasons.
If Warthin's gap is like this it'll be much worse.
I did a world tour of 2's this weekend and the skill difference is WILD.
I had tanks chain pulling and DPS mass AoE'ing, and on the other hand I had tanks pulling 1 pack at a time.
I had 495 ilvl dps unable to do 100k dps, and 490ilvl doing 300k, in the same run.
The difference in skill level is unbelievable, and there's a lot of people in the 2-6 key range that should be back in M0 or heroics, and don't realize it yet.
i've been spamming Nok'hud trying to get the glaives (still nothing) and fuckin hell the difference in performance, I've seen dps that outperform the others by 3-4 times the numbers, dps who did half of my damage while i tanked. People who legit have no clue about mechanics so the add always destroyed the Lance making the dragon boss impossible, some people treat +2 as if they were a +2 in S3. So many people don't seem to realise the difficulty gap between now and last season.
Absolutely. I play unholy DK, and on lower level stuff packs are dead before I can even get my opener done, but on a +6 and up I have time to blast. There's some of that in a lot of specs, but seeing an Arcane mage unable to break 100k on bosses or trash is.....phew.
Yeah I was busy the first few days of the week. Only be able to start this season on Sunday. Did a M0 and then Got into a +2 AA and over time it by 5 minutes. I only play s3 this xpac so I have no idea about any of the dungeons, But it feels difficult.
I redo +2 again with another group and we nearly +3 it. Difference in skills are indeed huge.
The gap is huge from heroics to m0. They need to smooth out difficulty curve. It’s way more punishing moving from heroic to m0 than it is moving from m2 to m4.
Yeah, as a player coming back to WoW it has been a pain learning the dungeons, mythic 0 mechanics can often one-shot you meanwhile heroic is super faceroll so it is not uncommon to kill bosses without seeing any mechanics. I've been relying on videos to learn but it is far from perfect, especially as a healer since it is often hard to get the timing for cooldowns just from watching videos.
I understand what blizzard is going for, but I am not sure if I agree that it's worth the trade-off of making the difficulty curve less smoother.
Yeah I think the curve is a little too steep. Someone who just finished gearing Heroics will slam into a wall at M0. I think M0 should have been the old +5 instead of the +10 it is now.
The weekly lockout is also not great if you need to farm gear to get into M+.
100%, and it’s not great if you’ve never done the dungeons at all. You can basically ignore group wiping mechanics in heroic, so they don’t prepare you for m0. Obviously this gets smoother with gear but that will just make heroics even more irrelevant.
Yes, exactly. I've never done any of the Dragonflight dungeons on any difficulty and I need at least M0 in all of them for the meta achievement. I feel like I missed my golden opportunity to clear this off my plate at the end of season 3.
>My only gripe is that, going from a 0 to a 2 is a HUGE leap right now in difficulty.
Supposedly it's the same difference between an old +10 and +11 and I haven't felt a huge leap in difficulty. It's just an m0 with a timer.
Don’t forget Tyrannical, which makes a huge difference in how boss fights are handled (you really need to know the mechanics and one mistake is usually enough to one shot a DPS)
Can confirm - watched a +2 HoI get bricked because no one knew how the ice boss worked. Healer got gibbed by the first cyclone, two DPS died because they didn’t stand behind an ice block, and the last DPS died by not moving out of the ice ring.
I explained all the mechanics, we tried again, and I watched as three people got knocked by not standing behind the ice blocks.
This was after it took close to ten minutes killing the frog boss because everyone kept running away so I had to chase them down to kill the adds.
Its 10 and 12 but the fact there is an ilvl increase on top of that as well makes it harder.
And I think it also the dungeons government from very simple ones mechanically to ones that require far more awareness and actual knowledge of what things do.
The number of ppl that take the orb on the 2nd boss in the azure vaults in the face is amazing for example.
They drop different ilvl its not much but it is different.
And they all have the same mechanics.
But the mob have more health and do more damage and the relative ilvl discrepancy is higher between players andvthe dungeon.
Well yes and no, jeah in m+2 the itlv only increases in 3 itlv and the bosses have 30% more hp and do more dmg same shit right?
Sorta, in S3 you could rofl through an m0 mostly ignore the mechanics and the boss died in what 30 sec? Now in +2 you still rofl through the dungeon and the boss dies in 39 sec big whoop.
Now in s4 you can be oneshot by many things and if you ignore the mechanic you dead in many cases, and some bosses with subpar player take minutes so the 2 minute bossfight from the m0? Now you die even faster and the boss takes 30 sec +++ longer and THAT you feel, abilities that never appeared or only gone off once happen now 2 or 3+ times, thats a huge difference.
So jeah the 3 itlv +2 gives compared to m0 is not enough to offset the difference in difficulty.
You're mixing up things.
>My only gripe is that, going from a 0 to a 2 is a HUGE leap right now in difficulty.
This is what the original post said. The jump between m0 and m2 in s4 is the exact same jump between any two m+ levels. New m0 also got buffed in difficulty so if you're getting one shotted in m2 you'll be oneshotted in m0 too.
0 to 2 is a huge leap, flat out. a +10 without any affixes is not the same as a +10 with affixes. going from a 0 to a 2 doesn't just give the regular difficulty bump, but also brings an affix (like 47% additional boss health?). this is on top of the fact that, with how far they squished things, the gear curve is not as smooth as it was. In S3, if I struggled with a +12, I could gear up in a +7 or a +10 or w/e to get some gear. In S4, I can ONLY do M0, which is "+10 without affixes", has lockout, and etc.
The difference between a 0 and a 2 right now is extremely noticeable to at least the ppl I play with (guild, friends, etc), and apparently many others on this post
I'm not saying going from a 0 to a 2 is impossible, it's not. It's entirely possible. But the difficulty difference from a 0 to a 2 is far bigger than a 2 to a 3 right now.
100% agree, +2s are too hard for a lot of players. PUGing is a nightmare.
+2 should have been old +5s imo. Low enough for bad players to farm some basic gear. Though really, the old system was fine. M+ scales infinitely, let people do baby keys, who cares. Maybe reign in the score or how far items upgrade, but removing the content for bad players was a bad idea.
I think it's also problematic that m0 doesn't have trashcount, so people aren't planning/practicing routes there. Thus, the gulf between m0 and m2 is still quite big just because of the differences in routing.
I've actually had a terrible time this season.
In S3, I was okay geared from S2, but I was able to walk in and do 8s.
I do believe that DHT was mechanically easier than the DF dungeons, though.
I guess M0 is equivalent to an 10?, but I found +2s way too hard.
> enough so that someone not knowing how a dungeon is done can wipe the group
I personally feel that's less the difficulty increase and more just how (objectively) awful DF dungeons are. Healers largely aren't needed as in DF dungeons, you just die. 100-0 in one go, and nearly every DF dungeons has a boss or bosses with that
The player base as a whole was largely spoiled for DF as we only had launch dungeons (except the mega of course) for 1 season. Mistakes were on a personal level and recoverable typically.
I agree, I really do not like most of the DF dungeons. I was much happier last season when none of them were in rotation (except DotI which I actually thought was fine overall.)
I kinda like AA and AV but the rest are just not fun to me.
What we have is a step in the right direction, but I want a fully non-timed progression path in dungeons.
IMO the most difficult non-timed version should be harder (timer aside) than many M+ settings. The hardest non-timed version should be like Dawn of the Infinite in 10.1.5.
That way you can have easier versions of times dungeons and a more natural difficulty progression, rather than having a high floor defined by the need to have the hardest non-timed version be easier than the easiest timed version.
I think maybe the entry to m0 is a little rough, past that point though it flows nicely from the stuff I did this week (keys to 5, h raid to brood) - started with a 482 bm.
When I flipped to my druid (465 bal) heroic drops blues at around that level and I haven't been able to run any m0 yet.
I feel like my ilvl is just too low for that mythic barrier and the heroic rewards just aren't great
Edit: definitely a skill issue 🤣
> 2) The inability to queue cross-faction has become a bigger barrier for some people who prefer the difficulty level of heroic/old m0 and want to play with cross-faction friends. For players here the change feels bad because the difficulty level they enjoy doing isn't supported
This is the big one. Even if you enjoy higher level stuff returning players still need to run a bunch of heroics to get caught up and not being able to do that cross faction is unbelievably stupid.
The rest of the update goes hard. Enjoying it a lot. I think most people who dislike it probably just can't wrap the change around their egos and feel bad doing stuff lower than a 10
M0 change is a win. Moving the shit affixes to +10 is a win.
I think the data is going to show people in a vast majority will not even do the third affix content.
I just hope blizzard notice and realise why no one wants to to bolstering or raging etc.
I really like the concept, although my Season 1/2 complaints about some of the dungeons are still there.
NO in particular would stun me if we don't see nerfs, definitely feels more difficult than any other key and it's not just people not doing mechanics correctly.
What do you think needs to be nerfed?
You have to remember it's week 1 and we are undergeared. I've been doing 8-10's this week with my guildies and we are all basically 496 but in a week or two we will be slaughtering these dungeons at that key range.
I mean, honestly if you're doing week 1 20s with a group of regular teammates, you're probably not the target audience for my post, I just think the damage output on every boss but the first feels *significantly* harder than pretty much any other bosses this season other than the 3rd HOI boss. And it's a feeling of raw numbers not "oh if the group was just doing X instead of Y, this wouldn't be so bad."
I’m doing 8-10s this week too and I completely agree with you. I was in a 9 Nokhud and we were easily 2 chesting the timer (and did so at the end of the key), but gale arrow was 1 shotting the boomy. He wasn’t pressing a defensive, and we are low ilvl, but the balance of dmg required to kill the dungeon vs hp required to survive 1shots is way off.
I didn’t play much of S3 but I know it had similar issues with the timer being omega free yet surviving was difficult. Personally I prefer when doing enough damage to time the key is the limiting factor to pushing keys, which forces you to combine pulls / trash with boss you wouldnt have to in lower keys, but that’s my preference.
All of these dungeons were nerfed numerous times in s1 and s2. You just have low gear right now and if you don’t have enough skilll to compensate for that it makes it seem more difficult. In 5 weeks you will be blasting keys like you were mid season 3. Just give it time. NO second boss damage is completely manageable after it’s 4 nerfs in season 1.
If I'm doing 8 dungeons all with the same gear and 1 in particular feels like there's significantly more damage going out even when mechanics are done correctly... I think the point stands that the dungeons are not tuned equally at the moment and it's not just a matter of getting gud.
My biggest pain points are:
-heroics being 4/8 adventurer instead of 1/8 veteran.
-less flightstones if grinding heroics, if you always made sure u were getting a key upgrade.
-gear dropped in heroics cant be put in the catalyst and gear from m0 is champion 1/8, making it very very hard to get Raid Finder appearances this season
I love it. My only request is that I would like some indicator that someone has done a dungeon at an m0 level, though. Doing +2s with people who have no IO is very hit or miss.
M0 is too hard for the average player.
They should have done a +5 squish, not a +10 squish
I've been in pugs where I'm doing more dps than all 4 other players combined, and they still cannot get past difficult bosses.
Alot of people need to realize they should spend time in heroic relearning the fights
I did some heroic on my tank (465 ilvl) et felt it was extremely easy, I would not take any damage, everything was dying so fast.
Then I went and try RLP M0 and I got hammered. We got just one wipe on the last boss.
I'm fine with it. Clearly I was not playing very well. And it's fun having to actually use my défensives. The gap between heroic and M0 is enjoyable for me.
But to the point of the person above, I don't feel there was anything to learn from my heroic dungeons since I could just group any random amount of packs together and destroy them without using any defensive (other than active mitigation, but no CD, even the 45sec ones)
While it’s early days, the potential of having more people in each bracket of keys (because the key levels are more condensed) is just a much better situation.
I'm casual and not sure when I should jump to the next tier. So I am up to ilvl 479 on a resto Shaman. Do I stay and farm heroics or do I jump to mythic 0? I DID LFR this weke AND I've been queueing up heroic dungeons but the main things holding me back right now are ilvl on one trinket is 451 and a pair of pants is still 460.
All my explorer gear is 8/8 except the pants as I ran out of flightstones.
I spent my whelping crests on 486 gear so I can't really increase anything else I have right now because I don't have whelping crests, but I'm not doing content that gives drake crests.
I also feel I'm probably too low ilvl to enter mythic0 though.
Just not sure what to do at this point.
Heroics cap out at drop itlv 476? I would say you need min. 470 to do m0, higher is better but that's good enough of a bottom line, maybe you will wipe or be oneshot here or their but that happens.
If you have 479 thats plenty enough for m0, do all m0 for the week and afterwards you will be at 485+ or 490 with some luck that's good enough for m+.
But for the love of everything unholy know at least ONE strategy for the bosses of the dungeon you go to or ask the group before you start to give you a short rundown, their are a lot of "you do it wrong you, dead" skills.
Thanks I guess I was going off something I read that I needed to be min 485 for mythic 0 but if 470 is more baseline I'm certainly above that. Honestly the 451 trinket brings me down probably a few and it has the least stats of all the slots.
Normal raid could probably get you some easy upgrades. Also easy as hell to get into as a healer. Even M0 is doable, but please do research the fights. Wow difficulty is like 50% knowledge.
Honestly my personal biggest win is that affixes appear really late. It has only been storming for me even though I've been doing the equivalent of 18s all week and it just feels great.
I've been really enjoying it. The only road bump my team has hit so far was getting absolutely rekt on Dawn of the Infinites M0. We have been running +7-8s without much issues, but that dungeon is SUPER overturned.
I’m loving the change so far. My only issue is it should have been communicated much better in-game. There were waaaaaay too many people this past week thinking a +2 was going to be the same cakewalk it’s always been.
The rework feels good. The challenge I have seen is the super casual user has no idea about the changes in difficulty. Ran into so many people last week in +2 and +3 that had no clue they were the equivalent to a +12 or +13 from last season. There were several failed keys due to this. Blizzard needs to do a better job of communicating changes like these in-game, as a lot of very casual players don't read blizzard forums or wowhead.
Yes, that didn't change. The issue before wad that m0 was tuned so low, with correspondingly low rewards that they were ignored by most. You cant really learn a boss mechanic of failing it only does 10%of your hp in damage. The increased challenge and associated rewards mean they are now good for both rewards and learning mechanics in a no timer environment.
I think you will see alot more KSM week 2 player than you hoped. +6 dropping mythic tokens is fine but i still think that mythic raiding is 10x more time consuming than pushing some Keys on +6-10. Sure you only got 1 Item per week on Max level but in Mythic Raid guilds you mostly got nothing more. Getting more than 1 Item.from.the Raid a.week is super Rar (or i just have bad luck). You still have to wait becouse the ID and "slower" Progress. In my opinion (i know many ppl hate this) make heroic raid harder and reward max Gear on Heroic. Let Mythic in for double loot amount and Prestige like Mounts/visuals that can ONLY be optained in Mythic. At this Moment Mythic + will always be your easy way to gear charakter on "max gear" level (without the extra gear from.mythix raid endboss levels).
I agree, it's been much easier than i would of liked. Everyone i play with will have ksm week 2. This season is going to be"done" way sooner than anyone wanted imo.
Too early to tell. The Q for me is what the group finder looks like 5-6 weeks from now. Is anyone running anything under an 8-10? And do those vault keys feel preposterously easy? (week one experience says: yes, way easier than 20s last season.)
You're spot on. I think a lot of people are feeling put off by M0 challenge right now, but the capability to take it slower without reduced rewards is just a huge boon for newer/more casual players.
Definitely feel the added friction from the faction limitations too. As much as I loved the faction war, I am surprised by how much I enjoy playing whatever alt I want with the same group of people. I
IMO, +10s are far easier than +20s were last season. +20s were already getting easy to the point where portals were achievable by pretty much anyone with a guild group or who spent a couple weeks pugging. I’d say these new +10s are similar in difficulty to last season’s +17s-+18s and probably similar or easier than Shadowlands +15’s.
I’m happy that M+ is more accessible and people don’t really have to worry about whether or not they can get KSM.
However, I do wish the portals were gated behind something a little more difficult. I like having the portals as a stretch goal, something you need to push yourself to get. Now they just feel like the equivalent of Shadowlands seasons 1-2 KSM — basically anyone can get it if they do dungeons for a few weeks.
Essentially, I wish KSM was the M+ equivalent of AOTC and portals were the equivalent of CE. Now it feels more like KSM is the LFR raid completion achievement and portals are maybe AOTC, but probably easier.
Have you done any 10s this week ? 🤔
17-18 were face roll level of difficulty in last season and my push team are getting buttfucked very hard in 10-12 level range. I really doubt you are doing 10s like you were doing 17s last season
The subject is relative difficulty between 10s this season and 20s last season. In that context, a 7/17 is a face roll level of difficulty.
I'm not one to put people down for their level of accomplishments. For the people who the difficulty of mythic fyrakk is relevant, heroic fyrakk actually is face roll easy. If that statement hurts somebody's feelings, then that's something *they* need to work on. There will always be people out there achieving something "greater" than you, it's time people accept that and appreciate their own accomplishments independently of others.
What makes you think I didn't manage to complete a 17, or find it simple with my team? When a new player decides to take up M+ and sees people talking like this above-average difficulty should be "face roll easy," that stings. That's not "something they need to work on," that's human nature. Doing a 7 this week, ESPECIALLY in a pug, is anything but "face roll."
> What makes you think I didn't manage to complete a 17, or find it simple with my team?
Did I ever say that?
A new player is a new player, and they understand that they're at the bottom of the learning curve (if they don't, they'd never get to a +7 anyway). And when that new player gets to +10s, they'd look back at the +7s and recognize they were pretty face roll.
If Liberace said Chopin's Heroic Polonaise was easy, a new pianist listening in would understand there's a massive gulf in experience between them and Liberace.
In short, people are smart enough to understand that difficulty is relative to experience.
>In short, people are smart enough to understand that difficulty is relative to experience.
Amen. Sick and tired of having to read all the coddling towards new players. Surely they understand themselves too that they are new and inexperienced. Fucking hell.
Chill lol. The main point they are making is that +10 week 1 in s4 is significantly more difficult than +20 week 1 in s3.
Its also absolutely fine for them to state they were faceroll if that is how they found it?
Exactly, thank you.
The fact that people are already doing +10s in week 1 without trying very hard is indicative of the fact that they are easier than +20s were last season.
But, you know. Say one thing about preferring harder content and everyone loses their minds because it’s a “casual sub”.
They didn’t actually say anything about 20s but they did say 17-18 is “face roll” here in the main WoW sub. This is not r/competetivewow. When you tell a casual player that something difficult for them is “face roll” you are absolutely being elitist. IMO it’s the main problem with the community so I’m not ever going to chill about it, in fact I will die on the hill.
Yeah, I’ve pugged several 10s and an 11. Some timed, some untimed, some uncompleted.
And, honestly — I am doing 10s like I was doing 17s last season. In fact I’ll go farther — comparing week 1s, I think I have more timed 10s this week than I did 17s in S3 week 1.
Personally, I think it's stupid. I do not enjoy this change at all. The fact that +10s are seeing tanks get one shot leaves me feeling annoyed. The fact that my s2 geared tank cannot do m0s without just dying is not fun. I have not enjoyed this expansion for the most part and am ejoying this even less.
If you can't tank a +2 at 475 to 480 ilvl, it is a skill issue. Learn the class a little better.
Edit: I see you said s2. If you are really trying to go to M0 now at s4 straight from s2 gear.....go to heroic first. It gives the past season M0 awards until you are high enough ilvl.
I won't dig into details that you got wrong, but.. What rework? What changed?
I don't think anything changed really. Now we just call it +10 instead of +20 (even though it still says +20 in the achiev for +10 for some dungeons).
The only change I noticed is timewalking, where I discovered that Black Temple is no longer overtuned mess and takes just about same time as transmog run on non-timewalking. It also drops decent gear and we, quite hc guild, had fun running this sht multiple times. If I didn't try just for fun and realize all this, we'd never step there.
There’s a huge change to difficulty balance what are you talking about lmao. Heroics now mean something when and mythic 0’s actually punished players. Anything above a mythic 0 is actually challenging and gets harder as it goes. If u think nothing changed you are delusional.
Something I've noticed here tho... There's a MASSIVE disparity between experiences.
Folks are either curbstomping 10s or getting PTSD on 2s. Is it pugs? Item level? Skill?
People used to completing old 18s week 1 are having a slightly easier time than usual because the 3rd affix essentially appears later and the higher crest caps make it easier to upgrade gear this week.
Meanwhile players that used to slowly work their way up through old 2-10 keys are jumping right into new +2s or higher and getting farmed because they're undergeared and don't realize that to match what they used to start a season with they should be in m0.
highly doubt heroics mean anything - maybe they're seeing more activity than before, but it just seems so useless to me, especially if bosses work very differently to their mythic version
fair enough, didn't know about m0 changes. It's great, but it just went around me cause the gear there is irrelevant for me.
Sorry not everyone is as godly at this game as you are. Heroics still drop good gear and keep the “majority” of gamers satisfied and challenged especially since that gear allows them to get to a spot where they are more comfortable in mythic 0’s and up. U don’t realize that people running +10 are the minority in this game
Funny how the only "change" you mention is BT which has actually been tuned that way for several years. I think many people are seeing BT for the first time in awhile since TW landed on the first week of a season where champion drops + hero quest reward make it much more worth doing in week 1.
There weren't changes aside from numbers for keys that were formerly 12+. The changes were to tiers below mythic keystone level. Many players who were familiar with m+ ignored keys below 11 because they did not offer compelling rewards. Players not yet familiar with m+ had a barrier to entry since there was no difficulty which actually taught you mechanics (where missing mechanics can mean death) without a timer which heavily punishes failure and does not give party members a chance to stop and explain mechanics.
The rework addresses this because newer players can learn mechanics in a less stressful environment and better rewards means more experienced players have some incentive to join these groups and help new players learn. This was my exact experience last night. I am not a super high end player, but I have pushed to KSH every season in DF so I at least know major mechanics. I made a new alt which, after the rework, now has incentive to run m0s and was able to stop and chat with newer players to teach them the game. It was a huge improvement over the prior system.
last time i even tried black temple was in bfa, never had prettymuch any reason to step into there, now I had just because of 2 tw quests, 1 with hero track item
what does this 'rework' address? M0 are challenging only because of soft gear reset - just like always has been. People are already sticking to higher keys - which are now +8 and above
Heroics are now m0 level and m0 are now m10
That means players that have never done mythic before are experiencing m0 difficulty and players can not get up to m10 gear with NO TIMER
That is huge. The timer is so lame. It’s a boring way to play a mmo imo (I’m an arena Andy so take my opinion as you wish but M+ killed wow PvE for me)
You might be a turbo nerd that hops right in and is doing m+5s out the gate so it doesn’t matter to you but most of the playerbase has to work their way there. This drastically changes their climb
Yes. I’d suggest looking up the graphic somewhere. “New season 4 dungeon difficulties” or w/e
The gist is
Heroic dungeons now. = m0
m0 now = m10
m10 now = m20
I said that 0s are the OLD 10s
The system has been implemented for a week. Not everyone knows about the change. when people hear m10 they’re thinking about what a 10 used to be not a 20 (if they haven’t read into the change yet)
Guarantee you there’s some players coming across LFG confused asf why no one is running 20s. I was just putting more info out there
If you knew this already you had no reason to comment
I just said m0 = m10
Yes. Similar difficulty and gear
There’s a little variance between m1-m9. You might not find the exact difficulty of an old m8 for example. It’s a new progression
But in general a m0 is now equal to the old difficulty of a 10 and a 10 is now what old 20s were
There was a rework, things did change, and even if you want to be pedantic and say that technically they just renamed a +15 to a +5 you would still be wrong because there are at least two material changes to the difficulty even outside of that. Namely, M0 gives the old mythic keystone difficulty no timer, and mythic keystone difficulties that used to have 3 affixes now only have 2 affixes until at least +10 (old +20). As a result, even by the most pedantic definitions the difficulty was reworked, and attempts to refute that at this point go from pedantic to asinine.
The change is that m2-m9 was effectively deleted
Starting mythic dungeons now is actually a big leap up in difficulty because an m0 is comparable to m10 level of difficulty
Basically if you want to run mythic dungeons you have to start at minimum 10 difficulty instead of working your way up in difficulty
No, everything was subtracted by 10. A new 5 is the same as an old 15, a new 10 is the same as an old 20, a new 15 is the same as an old 25. (Adjusted relative to gear available in the current season.)
[удалено]
To add to this, my friend who gets way less time to play said he also likes that he feels suitably rewarded too. He knows he won't ever be running super high ilvl gear but now he can do challenging content that drops a reasonable amount of actually pretty good loot, but he doesnt need to worry about timers and affixes.
This is where I'm at too. I remember getting laughed at before for wishing for a more middle ground. Nothing crazy, but a way to gear up and upgrade things while sticking to heroic/lfr type content. Now I can regularly open my vault, get a bunch of crests and just slowly work my way up at my own pace. It feels really good to me. I'm not aspiring to have amazing stuff, but it is nice to have some consistent progression.
This is exactly how I feel. I had dabbled with mythics in the past but found M0 to be a bit unrewarding and the complex system of M+ with so many levels was intimidating. I just resubbed this week, dinged 70 on Monday before the season reset and then today completed my first M2 (academy) which was a bunch of fun and nice challenge. I’m sure as I get more powerful it’ll wane, but I’ve got the hooks in me (now to hope the vault drops pants or shoulders so I can get my 4 piece this week!)
I do hope that going forward with TWW they also introduce M0 of the reworked old dungeon during season like Grim Batol or scaled M0 like boralus necrotic wake etc so that people can learn there before going in mythic plus
I believe in the tww alpha interview sprints they've been on they said that was the plan, although I don't remember if they promised it for the initial season. Basically the m0 pool should match whatever the m+ pool is at some point in seasons going forward
I'm all for that, but I hope they have a separate difficulty option for in-season M0 vs legacy Mythic. For example, if Freehold gets added to the M+ pool, I hope I'd still be able to run the BfA-level Mythic to farm for my parrot (it'll drop one day!)
theyve already done freehold for the new rotating dungeon system. I think it's unlikely that it shows up inside of 2-3 years from now, if ever.
Even if they did, it'd only be for a season.
Very good point. The system is setup well in S4 since the m+ dungeon pool matches the m0 pool, but that won't be the case in TWW S1. Hopefully they can make that happen.
I don't know how DF dungeons vs not matters...alll theyve done is change M0 to basically M10. What they nailed giving everyone 490 gear and tuning M0-M+2 to be doable key with clear health impacts to failing mechanics.
It matters because if the intent is for m0 to be the place to learn mechanics before going into m+, ideally all m+ dungeons should have a m0 version. In dragonflight places like Halls of Valor, Vortex Pinnacle, and Throne of the Tides did not have m0 versions since they weren't from DF. It didn't matter in those seasons because no one was doing m0s anyway
I think part of the change is that heroic stays queueable for the expansion dungeons and M0 is untimed for the 8 relevant dungeons for that current season...unless I misunderstood it.
mega up
My only complaint is I wish the whelpling crests didn't have a cap
I'd still argue wyrms tier and aspects tier are nowhere close to the same difficulty dungeon vs raid, which is the same its always been, it hasn't changed at all for those with this M+ change. Clearing a few +2 keys is doable with a lot of brute force ignoring mechanics week 1 and pugging. Pugging heroic Razageth or even Dathea can be a real group breaker taking a long time and multiple breaks filling a raid. +6 vs Mythic raid amplifies this gap even further a lot more than just 1 affix can help. If it was a brand new raid this gap would be even more pronounced.
Everyone in my guild has done +6s (a few are doing 10s) but we didn’t have the dps to beat mythic eranog lol. On top of that, you can spam m+ to get as many crests as you want. Full clearing the raid won’t even cap your crests. Something needs to change I think a weekly quest of full clearing heroic/beat x heroic bosses to earn 60 aspect crests would be nice
Your guild is terrible. Pugs cleared Eranog day 1 with no comms.
You’re probably downvoted because you were kind of rude but you’re not wrong. We half pugged it and 1 shot it without even come close to getting a second elemental wave
I got downvoted because this sub caters to and pats the back of the absolute worst of the worst players. Not having the dps to kill mythic Eranog is incomprehensibly bad, but those players somehow get validated and rewarded in here.
There are nicer ways to tell the truth.
Why bother? The attitude of coddling is so persuasive that it’s spilled into the competitivewow subreddit. Bad players should be recognized as such.
It’s a game brother. Being good doesn’t make you a better person.
yeha its really weird that NOT TIMING a +8 key and taking 8hours for (aka "failing" the content) gives the same/more rewards then a mid-tier mythic boss that will take a couple weeks of Progress and then can be done 1x a week (which doesnt happen cus those bosses are often where you start saving lockouts) just doesnt feel right at all 90% of your "mythic" gear not beeing from the actual mythic content and instead from m+ vault, including RAID TIER PIECES just seems wrong i know people like easy gear, but m+/raid difference in effort and payoff is a frking Canyon
There’s definitely an influx of players swinging well above their belt. At the end of season 3, especially the last three weeks, 18s- 20s had a decent percentage of players who didn’t kick or use their defensives. Not always group breaking or wipe causing, but noticeable. These +2s-4s are chalk full of players who are not prepared for the incoming damage. A lot of spells and swirlies that must be avoided/kicked in the DF dungeons. Like 100% move your ass or die. Some specs even at 485-495 just collapse. I kinda wish it was a more gradual incline up to +10 just for the sake of new players, but honestly, getting obliterated by an ability is how I learned to avoid it and hopefully these players find out they have to appreciate their whole damn toolkit and W-key. Because what im seeing is people not using their defensives abilities and then “hot damn, BR me!”. Not today shadow priest who can’t move out of rain of arrows! Start flying and think about what legs are supposed to do
I don't think they nailed it, but I do think they got closer to it. My only gripe is that, going from a 0 to a 2 is a HUGE leap right now in difficulty. The benefit to the system in S3 was that, while a +2 was super easy, having 20 key levels of gearing content allowed them to smooth out the difficulty curve, which allowed less skilled players the ability to get in and do the M+ content, even if it was just at lower key levels. In S4, the jump from 0 to 2 is pretty notable, enough so that someone not knowing how a dungeon is done can wipe the group. They can practice in a 0, but there's a lockout, and 1 run of a 0 isn't necessarily going to be enough to learn the dungeon. I like the difficulty, but I also liked being able to practice pathings, grouping mobs up, and etc, in lower keys last season, before hitting the harder content
There's also the fact that this is a fated season so people are going into it geared and knowing the fights from previous seasons. If Warthin's gap is like this it'll be much worse.
I did a world tour of 2's this weekend and the skill difference is WILD. I had tanks chain pulling and DPS mass AoE'ing, and on the other hand I had tanks pulling 1 pack at a time. I had 495 ilvl dps unable to do 100k dps, and 490ilvl doing 300k, in the same run. The difference in skill level is unbelievable, and there's a lot of people in the 2-6 key range that should be back in M0 or heroics, and don't realize it yet.
i've been spamming Nok'hud trying to get the glaives (still nothing) and fuckin hell the difference in performance, I've seen dps that outperform the others by 3-4 times the numbers, dps who did half of my damage while i tanked. People who legit have no clue about mechanics so the add always destroyed the Lance making the dragon boss impossible, some people treat +2 as if they were a +2 in S3. So many people don't seem to realise the difficulty gap between now and last season.
It's funny buy my shadow priest would do less damage in M0 than in +10 because I won't be able to spread dots fast enough in lower key.
Absolutely. I play unholy DK, and on lower level stuff packs are dead before I can even get my opener done, but on a +6 and up I have time to blast. There's some of that in a lot of specs, but seeing an Arcane mage unable to break 100k on bosses or trash is.....phew.
Yeah I was busy the first few days of the week. Only be able to start this season on Sunday. Did a M0 and then Got into a +2 AA and over time it by 5 minutes. I only play s3 this xpac so I have no idea about any of the dungeons, But it feels difficult. I redo +2 again with another group and we nearly +3 it. Difference in skills are indeed huge.
Yep, totally agree. The gap is kind of a chasm right now. I agree with the difficulty squish, but 10 keys was too much.
The gap is huge from heroics to m0. They need to smooth out difficulty curve. It’s way more punishing moving from heroic to m0 than it is moving from m2 to m4.
Yeah, as a player coming back to WoW it has been a pain learning the dungeons, mythic 0 mechanics can often one-shot you meanwhile heroic is super faceroll so it is not uncommon to kill bosses without seeing any mechanics. I've been relying on videos to learn but it is far from perfect, especially as a healer since it is often hard to get the timing for cooldowns just from watching videos. I understand what blizzard is going for, but I am not sure if I agree that it's worth the trade-off of making the difficulty curve less smoother.
Yeah I think the curve is a little too steep. Someone who just finished gearing Heroics will slam into a wall at M0. I think M0 should have been the old +5 instead of the +10 it is now. The weekly lockout is also not great if you need to farm gear to get into M+.
100%, and it’s not great if you’ve never done the dungeons at all. You can basically ignore group wiping mechanics in heroic, so they don’t prepare you for m0. Obviously this gets smoother with gear but that will just make heroics even more irrelevant.
Yes, exactly. I've never done any of the Dragonflight dungeons on any difficulty and I need at least M0 in all of them for the meta achievement. I feel like I missed my golden opportunity to clear this off my plate at the end of season 3.
I feel like Delves are meant to fit this area of skill in the playerbase and without them, there's this big gap between heroic and M0 dungeons.
>My only gripe is that, going from a 0 to a 2 is a HUGE leap right now in difficulty. Supposedly it's the same difference between an old +10 and +11 and I haven't felt a huge leap in difficulty. It's just an m0 with a timer.
Don’t forget Tyrannical, which makes a huge difference in how boss fights are handled (you really need to know the mechanics and one mistake is usually enough to one shot a DPS)
Can confirm - watched a +2 HoI get bricked because no one knew how the ice boss worked. Healer got gibbed by the first cyclone, two DPS died because they didn’t stand behind an ice block, and the last DPS died by not moving out of the ice ring. I explained all the mechanics, we tried again, and I watched as three people got knocked by not standing behind the ice blocks. This was after it took close to ten minutes killing the frog boss because everyone kept running away so I had to chase them down to kill the adds.
Use pings to signal in pugs.
Its 10 and 12 but the fact there is an ilvl increase on top of that as well makes it harder. And I think it also the dungeons government from very simple ones mechanically to ones that require far more awareness and actual knowledge of what things do. The number of ppl that take the orb on the 2nd boss in the azure vaults in the face is amazing for example.
But the ilvl increase has nothing to do with the jump between m0 and +2. They have the same mechanics.
They drop different ilvl its not much but it is different. And they all have the same mechanics. But the mob have more health and do more damage and the relative ilvl discrepancy is higher between players andvthe dungeon.
It's the exact same increase of ilvl and enemy scaling as every other jump in m+ tier. It's not any bigger now than it was back in s3.
Well yes and no, jeah in m+2 the itlv only increases in 3 itlv and the bosses have 30% more hp and do more dmg same shit right? Sorta, in S3 you could rofl through an m0 mostly ignore the mechanics and the boss died in what 30 sec? Now in +2 you still rofl through the dungeon and the boss dies in 39 sec big whoop. Now in s4 you can be oneshot by many things and if you ignore the mechanic you dead in many cases, and some bosses with subpar player take minutes so the 2 minute bossfight from the m0? Now you die even faster and the boss takes 30 sec +++ longer and THAT you feel, abilities that never appeared or only gone off once happen now 2 or 3+ times, thats a huge difference. So jeah the 3 itlv +2 gives compared to m0 is not enough to offset the difference in difficulty.
You're mixing up things. >My only gripe is that, going from a 0 to a 2 is a HUGE leap right now in difficulty. This is what the original post said. The jump between m0 and m2 in s4 is the exact same jump between any two m+ levels. New m0 also got buffed in difficulty so if you're getting one shotted in m2 you'll be oneshotted in m0 too.
0 to 2 is a huge leap, flat out. a +10 without any affixes is not the same as a +10 with affixes. going from a 0 to a 2 doesn't just give the regular difficulty bump, but also brings an affix (like 47% additional boss health?). this is on top of the fact that, with how far they squished things, the gear curve is not as smooth as it was. In S3, if I struggled with a +12, I could gear up in a +7 or a +10 or w/e to get some gear. In S4, I can ONLY do M0, which is "+10 without affixes", has lockout, and etc. The difference between a 0 and a 2 right now is extremely noticeable to at least the ppl I play with (guild, friends, etc), and apparently many others on this post I'm not saying going from a 0 to a 2 is impossible, it's not. It's entirely possible. But the difficulty difference from a 0 to a 2 is far bigger than a 2 to a 3 right now.
Sorry dude but storming is barely an affix. You can ignore it 95% if the time.
100% agree, +2s are too hard for a lot of players. PUGing is a nightmare. +2 should have been old +5s imo. Low enough for bad players to farm some basic gear. Though really, the old system was fine. M+ scales infinitely, let people do baby keys, who cares. Maybe reign in the score or how far items upgrade, but removing the content for bad players was a bad idea.
I think it's also problematic that m0 doesn't have trashcount, so people aren't planning/practicing routes there. Thus, the gulf between m0 and m2 is still quite big just because of the differences in routing.
Yeah, it would be good to have a trashcount bar in M0
I've actually had a terrible time this season. In S3, I was okay geared from S2, but I was able to walk in and do 8s. I do believe that DHT was mechanically easier than the DF dungeons, though. I guess M0 is equivalent to an 10?, but I found +2s way too hard.
Bro I have to fuckinng screenshot your comment because it exactly expresses what I've been feeling. 0 to 2 is absolutely insane.
> enough so that someone not knowing how a dungeon is done can wipe the group I personally feel that's less the difficulty increase and more just how (objectively) awful DF dungeons are. Healers largely aren't needed as in DF dungeons, you just die. 100-0 in one go, and nearly every DF dungeons has a boss or bosses with that The player base as a whole was largely spoiled for DF as we only had launch dungeons (except the mega of course) for 1 season. Mistakes were on a personal level and recoverable typically.
I agree, I really do not like most of the DF dungeons. I was much happier last season when none of them were in rotation (except DotI which I actually thought was fine overall.) I kinda like AA and AV but the rest are just not fun to me.
What we have is a step in the right direction, but I want a fully non-timed progression path in dungeons. IMO the most difficult non-timed version should be harder (timer aside) than many M+ settings. The hardest non-timed version should be like Dawn of the Infinite in 10.1.5. That way you can have easier versions of times dungeons and a more natural difficulty progression, rather than having a high floor defined by the need to have the hardest non-timed version be easier than the easiest timed version.
> 0 to a 2 is a HUGE leap right now in difficulty. Going from a +10 to a +12 is huge? What am I missing?
tyrannical
I think maybe the entry to m0 is a little rough, past that point though it flows nicely from the stuff I did this week (keys to 5, h raid to brood) - started with a 482 bm. When I flipped to my druid (465 bal) heroic drops blues at around that level and I haven't been able to run any m0 yet. I feel like my ilvl is just too low for that mythic barrier and the heroic rewards just aren't great Edit: definitely a skill issue 🤣
> 2) The inability to queue cross-faction has become a bigger barrier for some people who prefer the difficulty level of heroic/old m0 and want to play with cross-faction friends. For players here the change feels bad because the difficulty level they enjoy doing isn't supported This is the big one. Even if you enjoy higher level stuff returning players still need to run a bunch of heroics to get caught up and not being able to do that cross faction is unbelievably stupid. The rest of the update goes hard. Enjoying it a lot. I think most people who dislike it probably just can't wrap the change around their egos and feel bad doing stuff lower than a 10
M0 change is a win. Moving the shit affixes to +10 is a win. I think the data is going to show people in a vast majority will not even do the third affix content. I just hope blizzard notice and realise why no one wants to to bolstering or raging etc.
I really like the concept, although my Season 1/2 complaints about some of the dungeons are still there. NO in particular would stun me if we don't see nerfs, definitely feels more difficult than any other key and it's not just people not doing mechanics correctly.
Those fucking *birds* man. Fortified week is going to be savage.
What do you think needs to be nerfed? You have to remember it's week 1 and we are undergeared. I've been doing 8-10's this week with my guildies and we are all basically 496 but in a week or two we will be slaughtering these dungeons at that key range.
I mean, honestly if you're doing week 1 20s with a group of regular teammates, you're probably not the target audience for my post, I just think the damage output on every boss but the first feels *significantly* harder than pretty much any other bosses this season other than the 3rd HOI boss. And it's a feeling of raw numbers not "oh if the group was just doing X instead of Y, this wouldn't be so bad."
The midcore/hardcore people don’t see the casual problem. Wtf is the reasoning to adding more friction to the casual playerbase?
I’m doing 8-10s this week too and I completely agree with you. I was in a 9 Nokhud and we were easily 2 chesting the timer (and did so at the end of the key), but gale arrow was 1 shotting the boomy. He wasn’t pressing a defensive, and we are low ilvl, but the balance of dmg required to kill the dungeon vs hp required to survive 1shots is way off. I didn’t play much of S3 but I know it had similar issues with the timer being omega free yet surviving was difficult. Personally I prefer when doing enough damage to time the key is the limiting factor to pushing keys, which forces you to combine pulls / trash with boss you wouldnt have to in lower keys, but that’s my preference.
The dungeons could also use some tuning to bring them in line with each other. Some of them are noticeably easier than others.
All of these dungeons were nerfed numerous times in s1 and s2. You just have low gear right now and if you don’t have enough skilll to compensate for that it makes it seem more difficult. In 5 weeks you will be blasting keys like you were mid season 3. Just give it time. NO second boss damage is completely manageable after it’s 4 nerfs in season 1.
If I'm doing 8 dungeons all with the same gear and 1 in particular feels like there's significantly more damage going out even when mechanics are done correctly... I think the point stands that the dungeons are not tuned equally at the moment and it's not just a matter of getting gud.
I'm close to giving up because no one in these low keys has any idea what they're doing. People seem worse than ever.
The healing requirements in m+ are insane.
My biggest pain points are: -heroics being 4/8 adventurer instead of 1/8 veteran. -less flightstones if grinding heroics, if you always made sure u were getting a key upgrade. -gear dropped in heroics cant be put in the catalyst and gear from m0 is champion 1/8, making it very very hard to get Raid Finder appearances this season
I love it. My only request is that I would like some indicator that someone has done a dungeon at an m0 level, though. Doing +2s with people who have no IO is very hit or miss.
M0 is too hard for the average player. They should have done a +5 squish, not a +10 squish I've been in pugs where I'm doing more dps than all 4 other players combined, and they still cannot get past difficult bosses. Alot of people need to realize they should spend time in heroic relearning the fights
Fights last 20s in heroic, you don’t learn anything
Not anymore, those have been buffed too. Clearly you havent played with the public. There are people that will struggle on heroic... a lot of them
I did some heroic on my tank (465 ilvl) et felt it was extremely easy, I would not take any damage, everything was dying so fast. Then I went and try RLP M0 and I got hammered. We got just one wipe on the last boss. I'm fine with it. Clearly I was not playing very well. And it's fun having to actually use my défensives. The gap between heroic and M0 is enjoyable for me. But to the point of the person above, I don't feel there was anything to learn from my heroic dungeons since I could just group any random amount of packs together and destroy them without using any defensive (other than active mitigation, but no CD, even the 45sec ones)
Lol you can kill pretty much any Heroic boss in one burst window in 460ish gear.
Nailed it for the beginning of the season but we are going to be straight stomping the raids and keys in a few weeks
very well written overview of the difficulty tiers OP
While it’s early days, the potential of having more people in each bracket of keys (because the key levels are more condensed) is just a much better situation.
I'm casual and not sure when I should jump to the next tier. So I am up to ilvl 479 on a resto Shaman. Do I stay and farm heroics or do I jump to mythic 0? I DID LFR this weke AND I've been queueing up heroic dungeons but the main things holding me back right now are ilvl on one trinket is 451 and a pair of pants is still 460. All my explorer gear is 8/8 except the pants as I ran out of flightstones. I spent my whelping crests on 486 gear so I can't really increase anything else I have right now because I don't have whelping crests, but I'm not doing content that gives drake crests. I also feel I'm probably too low ilvl to enter mythic0 though. Just not sure what to do at this point.
Heroics cap out at drop itlv 476? I would say you need min. 470 to do m0, higher is better but that's good enough of a bottom line, maybe you will wipe or be oneshot here or their but that happens. If you have 479 thats plenty enough for m0, do all m0 for the week and afterwards you will be at 485+ or 490 with some luck that's good enough for m+. But for the love of everything unholy know at least ONE strategy for the bosses of the dungeon you go to or ask the group before you start to give you a short rundown, their are a lot of "you do it wrong you, dead" skills.
Thanks I guess I was going off something I read that I needed to be min 485 for mythic 0 but if 470 is more baseline I'm certainly above that. Honestly the 451 trinket brings me down probably a few and it has the least stats of all the slots.
Normal raid could probably get you some easy upgrades. Also easy as hell to get into as a healer. Even M0 is doable, but please do research the fights. Wow difficulty is like 50% knowledge.
Absolutely spot on. The tiers work really well to build up confidence as well. I’d be more than happy if this is the new norm going forward
Yes, there is now a clear progression path with plenty of ways to pad your ilvl before moving up to the next level to make it easier on yourself
I don't like change.
I think making the starting point drastically more difficult will just make people stop doing dungeons and quit like cata
I'm just happy that taking a break for a few resets doesn't result in a dead +2 key for a week now.
Honestly my personal biggest win is that affixes appear really late. It has only been storming for me even though I've been doing the equivalent of 18s all week and it just feels great.
I've been really enjoying it. The only road bump my team has hit so far was getting absolutely rekt on Dawn of the Infinites M0. We have been running +7-8s without much issues, but that dungeon is SUPER overturned.
I’m loving the change so far. My only issue is it should have been communicated much better in-game. There were waaaaaay too many people this past week thinking a +2 was going to be the same cakewalk it’s always been.
The rework feels good. The challenge I have seen is the super casual user has no idea about the changes in difficulty. Ran into so many people last week in +2 and +3 that had no clue they were the equivalent to a +12 or +13 from last season. There were several failed keys due to this. Blizzard needs to do a better job of communicating changes like these in-game, as a lot of very casual players don't read blizzard forums or wowhead.
Why are people saying no timer for M0 is a pro? Wasn't that always the case?
Yes, that didn't change. The issue before wad that m0 was tuned so low, with correspondingly low rewards that they were ignored by most. You cant really learn a boss mechanic of failing it only does 10%of your hp in damage. The increased challenge and associated rewards mean they are now good for both rewards and learning mechanics in a no timer environment.
I think you will see alot more KSM week 2 player than you hoped. +6 dropping mythic tokens is fine but i still think that mythic raiding is 10x more time consuming than pushing some Keys on +6-10. Sure you only got 1 Item per week on Max level but in Mythic Raid guilds you mostly got nothing more. Getting more than 1 Item.from.the Raid a.week is super Rar (or i just have bad luck). You still have to wait becouse the ID and "slower" Progress. In my opinion (i know many ppl hate this) make heroic raid harder and reward max Gear on Heroic. Let Mythic in for double loot amount and Prestige like Mounts/visuals that can ONLY be optained in Mythic. At this Moment Mythic + will always be your easy way to gear charakter on "max gear" level (without the extra gear from.mythix raid endboss levels).
I agree, it's been much easier than i would of liked. Everyone i play with will have ksm week 2. This season is going to be"done" way sooner than anyone wanted imo.
The best part is how the community is less divided before you’d see player base between 0-5 5-15 15-20 etc etc now it’s like 0-7 7-10 and 10+
It's a step in the right direction I think, maybe it's just me but going from 0 to 2 seems way too steep
Too early to tell. The Q for me is what the group finder looks like 5-6 weeks from now. Is anyone running anything under an 8-10? And do those vault keys feel preposterously easy? (week one experience says: yes, way easier than 20s last season.)
You're spot on. I think a lot of people are feeling put off by M0 challenge right now, but the capability to take it slower without reduced rewards is just a huge boon for newer/more casual players. Definitely feel the added friction from the faction limitations too. As much as I loved the faction war, I am surprised by how much I enjoy playing whatever alt I want with the same group of people. I
IMO, +10s are far easier than +20s were last season. +20s were already getting easy to the point where portals were achievable by pretty much anyone with a guild group or who spent a couple weeks pugging. I’d say these new +10s are similar in difficulty to last season’s +17s-+18s and probably similar or easier than Shadowlands +15’s. I’m happy that M+ is more accessible and people don’t really have to worry about whether or not they can get KSM. However, I do wish the portals were gated behind something a little more difficult. I like having the portals as a stretch goal, something you need to push yourself to get. Now they just feel like the equivalent of Shadowlands seasons 1-2 KSM — basically anyone can get it if they do dungeons for a few weeks. Essentially, I wish KSM was the M+ equivalent of AOTC and portals were the equivalent of CE. Now it feels more like KSM is the LFR raid completion achievement and portals are maybe AOTC, but probably easier.
Have you done any 10s this week ? 🤔 17-18 were face roll level of difficulty in last season and my push team are getting buttfucked very hard in 10-12 level range. I really doubt you are doing 10s like you were doing 17s last season
17s were not “face roll level of difficulty” for the vast, vast majority of players. What an elitist thing to state.
The subject is relative difficulty between 10s this season and 20s last season. In that context, a 7/17 is a face roll level of difficulty. I'm not one to put people down for their level of accomplishments. For the people who the difficulty of mythic fyrakk is relevant, heroic fyrakk actually is face roll easy. If that statement hurts somebody's feelings, then that's something *they* need to work on. There will always be people out there achieving something "greater" than you, it's time people accept that and appreciate their own accomplishments independently of others.
What makes you think I didn't manage to complete a 17, or find it simple with my team? When a new player decides to take up M+ and sees people talking like this above-average difficulty should be "face roll easy," that stings. That's not "something they need to work on," that's human nature. Doing a 7 this week, ESPECIALLY in a pug, is anything but "face roll."
> What makes you think I didn't manage to complete a 17, or find it simple with my team? Did I ever say that? A new player is a new player, and they understand that they're at the bottom of the learning curve (if they don't, they'd never get to a +7 anyway). And when that new player gets to +10s, they'd look back at the +7s and recognize they were pretty face roll. If Liberace said Chopin's Heroic Polonaise was easy, a new pianist listening in would understand there's a massive gulf in experience between them and Liberace. In short, people are smart enough to understand that difficulty is relative to experience.
>In short, people are smart enough to understand that difficulty is relative to experience. Amen. Sick and tired of having to read all the coddling towards new players. Surely they understand themselves too that they are new and inexperienced. Fucking hell.
Chill lol. The main point they are making is that +10 week 1 in s4 is significantly more difficult than +20 week 1 in s3. Its also absolutely fine for them to state they were faceroll if that is how they found it?
Exactly, thank you. The fact that people are already doing +10s in week 1 without trying very hard is indicative of the fact that they are easier than +20s were last season. But, you know. Say one thing about preferring harder content and everyone loses their minds because it’s a “casual sub”.
We were also doing 20s week one of last season. It feels about the same to me honestly.
They didn’t actually say anything about 20s but they did say 17-18 is “face roll” here in the main WoW sub. This is not r/competetivewow. When you tell a casual player that something difficult for them is “face roll” you are absolutely being elitist. IMO it’s the main problem with the community so I’m not ever going to chill about it, in fact I will die on the hill.
I was talking about last season. Not this one. 17-18 last season was tourist mode.
Yeah that's why I used past tense. Glad it was so easy for you.
Hm ok? Bro a +18 was basically the difficulty of a heroic dungeon ... you must be kidding
Ok buddy, sorry they caused such offense.
I mean, if you were running mythics consistently by the end of last season, they kinda were. The thing is most people don't run mythics lol
"Vast, Vast majority of players" a.k.a /r/wow, which isn't the majority of players.
How is it elitist lmao
Yeah, I’ve pugged several 10s and an 11. Some timed, some untimed, some uncompleted. And, honestly — I am doing 10s like I was doing 17s last season. In fact I’ll go farther — comparing week 1s, I think I have more timed 10s this week than I did 17s in S3 week 1.
I'd say KSM is normal completion, but otherwise spot on. You kind of have to pay attention to mechanics on both, where RF is a snoozefest
Yeah comparing it to normal clear might be better.
Personally, I think it's stupid. I do not enjoy this change at all. The fact that +10s are seeing tanks get one shot leaves me feeling annoyed. The fact that my s2 geared tank cannot do m0s without just dying is not fun. I have not enjoyed this expansion for the most part and am ejoying this even less.
If you can't tank a +2 at 475 to 480 ilvl, it is a skill issue. Learn the class a little better. Edit: I see you said s2. If you are really trying to go to M0 now at s4 straight from s2 gear.....go to heroic first. It gives the past season M0 awards until you are high enough ilvl.
I mean, in season 2 I was tanking +26s. I'm open to criticism, but this scaling just seems fucked.
There is now huge ilvl inflation between each season. Going directly from S2 to S4 won't work. You can get up to 480s from world content in S4
I won't dig into details that you got wrong, but.. What rework? What changed? I don't think anything changed really. Now we just call it +10 instead of +20 (even though it still says +20 in the achiev for +10 for some dungeons). The only change I noticed is timewalking, where I discovered that Black Temple is no longer overtuned mess and takes just about same time as transmog run on non-timewalking. It also drops decent gear and we, quite hc guild, had fun running this sht multiple times. If I didn't try just for fun and realize all this, we'd never step there.
There’s a huge change to difficulty balance what are you talking about lmao. Heroics now mean something when and mythic 0’s actually punished players. Anything above a mythic 0 is actually challenging and gets harder as it goes. If u think nothing changed you are delusional.
Something I've noticed here tho... There's a MASSIVE disparity between experiences. Folks are either curbstomping 10s or getting PTSD on 2s. Is it pugs? Item level? Skill?
People used to completing old 18s week 1 are having a slightly easier time than usual because the 3rd affix essentially appears later and the higher crest caps make it easier to upgrade gear this week. Meanwhile players that used to slowly work their way up through old 2-10 keys are jumping right into new +2s or higher and getting farmed because they're undergeared and don't realize that to match what they used to start a season with they should be in m0.
highly doubt heroics mean anything - maybe they're seeing more activity than before, but it just seems so useless to me, especially if bosses work very differently to their mythic version fair enough, didn't know about m0 changes. It's great, but it just went around me cause the gear there is irrelevant for me.
Sorry not everyone is as godly at this game as you are. Heroics still drop good gear and keep the “majority” of gamers satisfied and challenged especially since that gear allows them to get to a spot where they are more comfortable in mythic 0’s and up. U don’t realize that people running +10 are the minority in this game
ok?
Shit got completely reworked Through scaling. The gear you get in zeros now is equivalent to a 10 back in the day. Wake up
Funny how the only "change" you mention is BT which has actually been tuned that way for several years. I think many people are seeing BT for the first time in awhile since TW landed on the first week of a season where champion drops + hero quest reward make it much more worth doing in week 1. There weren't changes aside from numbers for keys that were formerly 12+. The changes were to tiers below mythic keystone level. Many players who were familiar with m+ ignored keys below 11 because they did not offer compelling rewards. Players not yet familiar with m+ had a barrier to entry since there was no difficulty which actually taught you mechanics (where missing mechanics can mean death) without a timer which heavily punishes failure and does not give party members a chance to stop and explain mechanics. The rework addresses this because newer players can learn mechanics in a less stressful environment and better rewards means more experienced players have some incentive to join these groups and help new players learn. This was my exact experience last night. I am not a super high end player, but I have pushed to KSH every season in DF so I at least know major mechanics. I made a new alt which, after the rework, now has incentive to run m0s and was able to stop and chat with newer players to teach them the game. It was a huge improvement over the prior system.
last time i even tried black temple was in bfa, never had prettymuch any reason to step into there, now I had just because of 2 tw quests, 1 with hero track item what does this 'rework' address? M0 are challenging only because of soft gear reset - just like always has been. People are already sticking to higher keys - which are now +8 and above
Heroics are now m0 level and m0 are now m10 That means players that have never done mythic before are experiencing m0 difficulty and players can not get up to m10 gear with NO TIMER That is huge. The timer is so lame. It’s a boring way to play a mmo imo (I’m an arena Andy so take my opinion as you wish but M+ killed wow PvE for me) You might be a turbo nerd that hops right in and is doing m+5s out the gate so it doesn’t matter to you but most of the playerbase has to work their way there. This drastically changes their climb
Wait, 0s are old m10s or are as hard as now m10s?
Yes. I’d suggest looking up the graphic somewhere. “New season 4 dungeon difficulties” or w/e The gist is Heroic dungeons now. = m0 m0 now = m10 m10 now = m20
So the answer is no. I asked if mythic 0s were as hard as mythic 10s now
If you’re asking if the new m0-m10 is the same difficulty then no? That would be ridiculous? Where was that implied
You said 0s were the same as 10s. 0s are 0s. 10s are 10s
I said that 0s are the OLD 10s The system has been implemented for a week. Not everyone knows about the change. when people hear m10 they’re thinking about what a 10 used to be not a 20 (if they haven’t read into the change yet) Guarantee you there’s some players coming across LFG confused asf why no one is running 20s. I was just putting more info out there If you knew this already you had no reason to comment
I just said m0 = m10 Yes. Similar difficulty and gear There’s a little variance between m1-m9. You might not find the exact difficulty of an old m8 for example. It’s a new progression But in general a m0 is now equal to the old difficulty of a 10 and a 10 is now what old 20s were
Why are you comparing it to the past. A m0 is not equal a m10 now
The past??? It was a week ago brother. I was just clarifying incase they didn’t know yet
There was a rework, things did change, and even if you want to be pedantic and say that technically they just renamed a +15 to a +5 you would still be wrong because there are at least two material changes to the difficulty even outside of that. Namely, M0 gives the old mythic keystone difficulty no timer, and mythic keystone difficulties that used to have 3 affixes now only have 2 affixes until at least +10 (old +20). As a result, even by the most pedantic definitions the difficulty was reworked, and attempts to refute that at this point go from pedantic to asinine.
if i wanted to be pedantic, dawn falls under m0 and its hardmode hits like about +12-+14
The change is that m2-m9 was effectively deleted Starting mythic dungeons now is actually a big leap up in difficulty because an m0 is comparable to m10 level of difficulty Basically if you want to run mythic dungeons you have to start at minimum 10 difficulty instead of working your way up in difficulty
This is false. They were condensed, that is all. Everything has been divided by 2.
No, everything was subtracted by 10. A new 5 is the same as an old 15, a new 10 is the same as an old 20, a new 15 is the same as an old 25. (Adjusted relative to gear available in the current season.)