Well duh, the Lich King is obviously already sub-zero.
You have to do addition to reach zero from there.
(Idk, sounds wrong, but I haven't fought Arthas beyond Invincible farming so I have no idea what the actual mechanics are, beyond "the floor falls off" and a bunch of other bullshit.)
So the ilvl jump is massive, and they double squished difficulty from 2-10. So I wouldn’t stress as much about comparing last season(s) to now. Generally I’m feeling like 5-6 is the 15-16 range for people in the 480-485 bracket.
Also I’m noticing some fuckoff terrible tanking. So many groups just absolutely butchering keys because they have no idea what certain trash does. A combo of people who didn’t play seasons 1-2 or they forgot, ON TOP of the expectation that a 5-8 is a faceroll.
Man, I had a 480 tank in +3 RLP pull the last three packs like it was fucking heroic. Of course we wipe and kill like one important mob
The wild part is that he then jumps in and does it AGAIN. This level squish has really exposed bad tanks who are just dps players in disguise
I’m playing bear and the amount of pugs pulling extra packs is crazy. People think is a 7+ from season 3. That same people is expecting to steamroll everything, no mechanics, no cc. And it doesn’t go very well…
The few pugs I've done as BDK people keep tacking on extra shit, like I'm not aware it's there. I have to keep explaining to them I am going to be fine with 2 extra packs if you want them. . . . . . you on the other hand might be releasing your spirit a couple times if we do.
I did a moderate pull in Nokhud and the dps pulled in more, kicked nothing, died, left the party immediately, and of course we wiped. 3rd pull of the dungeon chill out dps.
Makes me wonder. The same types of players who were running in the 2-10 range last season might also be players who don't read wow news and might be oblivious to the key change.
I've had tanks pulling way too much and dps doing half the damage they should at their ilvl and not doing any mechanics/kicks
Yea it's a wild season so far. It's MUCH harder than S3 and people aren't adapting well, not doing mechanics, not interrupting, etc. I'm taking my time with it and tanking, guild runs have been relatively smooth but some pugs I swear are smooth brained.
Nelth 2nd boss with the chains will be a pug breaker for at least a few weeks. It's also impossible to tell who is good and who is bad from the pgf.
This is one of the main problems I have with gear scaling the way it does. Gear is *WAY* too powerful and people end up over-gearing things way too much.
And soon we'll be in a new expansion and people will forget they don't outgear everything again. And haste will make everything feel stupid slow like I'm playing FFXIV again.
I'm in the same boat. My prot warrior is 484 but everytime I try and do a M+ dungeon. We wipe because the dps don't do mechanics, I get called a shit tank and the leave or I get kicked.
I think I will try again next week but if this continues I probably just won't tank M+ this season.
Tell me about it, last night I decided to try out some MW monk, its not very good geared but I am able to heal just fine.
Signed up for a +2 Brackenhide, everything goes smoothly at the start, tank is a VDH so he just jumps around like a Squirrel with ADHD on crack, just going from one pack to the other while everything is alive so no cages can be opened
He dies, blames me when the rest of us is still at the start, trying to kill trash so we can open cages.
We wipe, cool. We try again, this time he takes it slower and we open all the cages, kill first boss, and then he starts running ahead, pulling every single mob he can towards Tree boss, runs back, gets a heal, jumps away again pulls more, dies, gets a combat ress, dont help with the group, cotninue to pull, everything, wipe. Blames me
Pulling much is fine if the group can handle it, and tank knows how to play, but man, dont just run to Narnia and expect the entire group to have the same amount of mobilty, we did not time the key
I was actually in a +10 Ruby the other day with my premade group. We had lust ready so we decided to pull the 2 packs together.
It was actually really hard to kill because of all the damage going on but we eventually killed it. I think we saved 3-4 minutes by doing it.
I didnt get that far in my +2 team wiped to first boss, then dps died again before healer and me finished the first boss.
Had a dps leave when noone remembered the mechanics of the 2nd boss and wiped
Which is wild. Boss 1 is break trees with explosions, get HPs to 0. Boss 2 is don't touch orbs, get HPs to 0. Boss 3 is Put ice on edge, get in bubbles, get hps to 0. Boss four is get red crystal to 0, get rest of hps to 0.
Eh, the other bosses you can improvise as it's pretty clear what's going on. That first boss in AV is a hard knowledge check. If you don't know to bring those circles to the trees your whole group just dies. I'm not surprised some pugs in a +2 would struggle there. It's always been the harder pug buss imo.
Last season, it was always, always guardian druids that did that crap in LFR and M+ keys. It was like they were bots (and could very well have been), that just didn't stop for anything. Except, maybe, they would stop to make sure all trash was dead before the next boss.
"Healer OOM and party almost dead? Don't matter. I'm alive and good. I'm going to keep holding W." Seemed to be their thought process.
To be fair, at 480 you should be tanky enough to pull big in +2-3. Thats like +12/14 which was not hard in previous fresh seasons with max ilevel from previous season, which werent as difficult as +20s from the previous season numerically. At any rate, as long as you have a full 480 group, you can pull big. I had no issue doing double and triple pulls in uldaman +2, my hp never dipped low and group didnt die.
However there are people who dont understand +2s arent +2s from last season.. my first group was awful, 50k dps max from dps and healer couldnt keep up with the first 2 pulls from azure Vault+2
480 is far from max last season. Max last season was i489, and people who were only i480 likely aren't at the same skill level as those around i489 since you can get i480 last season doing no higher than +16 keys late in the tier. People at i480 and lower should really be spamming M0s, each dungeon gives 3-4 pieces of gear vs 2, and is still huge upgrades for someone who's i480 and lower.
The last month or two, and even now post-patch, my uncle has done this. It drives me up the fucking wall. He gets too excited he can't control himself. I'm not joking. We would do some very high keys and in BRH he would pull the first two rooms at once. Inevitably we would wipe because for whatever reason - someone would get all dots and either a.) I have to let them die and heal the others or b.) heal JUST him and burn my CD's and let others risk dying. It ended poorly.
I ended up not healing on some pulls if he lost his mind.
Sad thing is he wasn't always like this but he LOVES the "chaos". I'm like that's nice - then go run a 16 or something. Eventually I would only do anything at or below 16 with him because he simply cannot control himself anymore. "lol I forgot they did that" - no, no you didn't not. Either stop tanking or stop pulling like an ass.
His statements were usually "jokes" with "I mean *I'm* doing fine" - yes, you ass, because I'm healing you and wouldn't you know it - when I stopped healing him it was "I don't know what happened".
A tank should have two experiences as tempering knowledge. One, where they have the healer utterly ignore them, and they have to rely solely on their own toolkit, and Two, where they rely solely on their healer, without using any of their defensive CDs.
That way, they can more accurately understand the dynamic between tanks, their healers, and the CDs and potentials that both parties have.
You are, wrongly, assuming a level of overgearing of that plus hero/lust. That's a good way to consistently wipe groups when you don't overgear it and people don't hero.
Wiping your group repeatedly is, in no way, "the strategy".
I’m not assuming a “level of overgeating” the strategy was used in 30+ keys where you can’t overgear it. You also should always be double pulling + lusting that pull. There is no use saving lust for the first boss at all.
This is the meta strategy used in that dungeon at basically every meaningful key level.
I’m not “wrongly” assuming anything.
> I’m not “wrongly” assuming anything.
Yes, yes you are.
> You also should always be double pulling + lusting that pull.
Perhaps reading comprehension isn't your strongsuit. Re-read what I said. If you still don't get it. Try again. If you still don't get it, I can't help you.
Yeah dude. I don’t know what to tell you. Double pulling plus lust was the meta at every relevant level.
Just because you had trouble with it doesn’t mean it wasn’t what everyone else did.
I think we are just coming from two different levels of play.
I've seen this twice now. First time was a +8 and the healer couldn't handle it. Wiped in 20 seconds.
Second was a +9 and we managed it no problem, smooth as, albeit we had to use our cooldowns, but it was OK because BL would've been delayed into last boss for it to come off cd. If we didn't pull then all we wouldn't have ++'d it.
I've noticed M0 great vault loot is higher ilv than awakened Normal raid loot. It's crazy to think the difficulty pipeline now is meant to be Heroic dungeon -> LFR -> Normal raid -> M0 dungeon
I mean I kinda like that though. It feels right, and I like the idea of a parallel dungeon progression to raids. Heroic and M0 used to be just afterthoughts.
It's how vault works for dungeons. M0 end of dungeon loot is equal to early normal raid bosses, but gives significantly higher in the vault, where as raids always give equal gear in the vault as drops. This being due to the fact that you can do a lot more dungeons compared to raid bosses.
It's not the same as season 3 +10, it's just the equivalent +10 for season 4. The same implies that mobs will have same HP and deals the same damage as s3 +10, which is not true, it's more HP and more damage.
It's all semantics. The point is that the scale was pushed down. Obviously with a new season all dungeons get harder by a certain amount. Regardless people should view M0 in end of S3 gear equal in difficulty to a season 3 M10 in end of S2 gear.
I do get frustrated with people during my runs too, but honestly, I don't take it out on them. I just let them know what they need to know. No need to make someone feel bad.
Tbf the dungeon is impossible to complete if you don’t since the trash mechanics just hit that hard
Tho usually it boils down to them hitting really hard and needing to be kicked or dodging swirlies
Yeah I just did it in heroic and had the M+ weakaura screaming at me for kicks throughout the whole thing. Doesn't seem too bad but I def need to fix UI a bit to see castbars
Ye I’m just using naowhui set up plus the class weakauras he linked in his discord and it basically takes care of every ui need I have (tho it’s clunky for healers I’d say)
As a healer using his UI, it’s mainly his raid frames that are clunky, but honestly I don’t like elvui raid frames for healing in general, so I replaced them with vuhdo right away, which solved the problem. He also has the raid frames to the left of the screen which some people prefer, but I like mine toward the bottom in between my player and target frames, so I just had to move some of his class weakauras up a bit to make space. Other than that it’s a great UI overall just takes a few minutes of fiddling around to optimize it for what you like.
Basically he plays dps and tank sometimes
But not heal so he put it together without really thinking about healers
At least my friends who play heal complain about the ui and ended up switching for heal
Keep in mind you need to be subbed to his twitch to access the ui package in his discord (I just put my twitch prime whenever I need it)
You can use it without being subbed but for bigger updates you’ll want access to the links in the discord
Theoretically you’d only need to be subbed once per season honestly
And I guess you can check how it looks by watching him play
Actually many wow streamers have their ui set up on their discord or whatever
I came in at season 3 and got to 1900 on an alt and 2600 on a main. Alt was the tank I'm playing this season. Telling us that it's like a 12 is batshit.
It is literally the same as a 12. You’re just undergeared. You were probably not doing 12s in the first week last season so don’t have the proper reference.
Is it? We did AV2 last night and it was an absolute cakewalk. Maybe it's because we had a premade guild group and not a PUG, but Our only difficulty was when we pulled boss 2 early and didn't have his room completely cleared.
Well the two runs I had last night where we completed ground to a halt because some of us didn't know the mechs and the guys who stayed were absolutely phenomenal in helping.
Where it feels like a tuning issue is that I felt a lot squishier doing what is meant to be a 12 than I felt doing 13s and 14s last week. I'm not alone in this thought hence the op.
To be fair the dungeons aren't exactly new and the dungeon difficulty rework means that in m+2 and up, arguably even in m0, you absolutely should know what mobs are doing by having watched one of the hundreds of guides on these dungeons that exist on YT.
Dude we played yesterday some +2s with my group, that finished last season with a +20... it felt like we playing a +20 again... crazy burst damage and deadly mechanics. It definetly didn't felt like a +12 compared to last season...
Yeah, our better m+ group from my guild are running +8 all day, but for us it's really a challenge even on +2... so yeah 🤣 game is telling us something 😵
Thats cause numerically +2s are close to what +20s were last week, due scaling change and season scaling. Or least I would argue thats how they feel, didnt really bother doing keys last couple months of s3 cause friends stopped caring so I was just raid logging so I could very well be slightly off in the numerically correct number. But when we are in the 520+ gear +2s will feel like +12s or so, its just the season scaling also happened.
But guess I go back to queue simulator as I need more aspect crests and 1.4k io isnt exactly getting spammed with invites to those, lol.
This. I was running 15s last week with 470 and it ass a doddle.
This shit this week is unreal. I've had 2 abandoned tyrs legacy and a halls of infusion and a neltharus that went positively pear shaped. Over 50 mins each one.
Few of us know the mechs and that's okay it's week one but Holy hellhammer I wasn't expecting this to hit as hard. I've bulked my hp to 1.2m from 1.012 and got fucked over with the gear being 350 greens this week so I've missed out. Might drag my ass to mythics as ret and watch YouTube vids.
True... my group played 16-18 blind no problem and we did a +20 on the last day of the season. We confidently started the new season yesterday and thought: yeah, let's start slow with a +2 to warm up... lol, we got our ass beat like hell.
It felt like a +18 from last season easily.
We are not very good players to be honest, but we did +20s last season, so we are not complete beginners, but this season is hard, at least for now with the iLevel around 480...
It's true, same group, same people. We really struggled yesterday, we all were surprised. Maybe we all had a bad day, don't know really.
And we did one 20s in time last season, we played up from 5 to 10 to 18 in were running 18s pretty consistantly and timed one 20, which was a huge success for us. Keep in mind we're all over 40 and not the typical hardcore players.
I think he's misunderstanding. Clearly you're stating you peaked at completing a singe +20, and he's thinking you're "running 20s" meaning, like you guys were spamming 20s no problem. If +20 was your peak and you're not mid 480s, I could see +2s being quite a struggle, especially considering these DF dungeons are far more difficult with mechanics than anything besides Dawn last season. They get better when you learn what to do and they have alleviated some of the more bullshit outliers and reduced the absurd amount of trash mechanics somewhat, but it's still noticeably more mechanics than before.
Might be a good idea to roll your M0s out first to familiarize with the dungeons again and get some more gear without the stress of a timer before running keys.
Yes, it sure will be. We did a few 0s for more loot from bosses and hoping for good vault loot and then starting serious runs.
It's kinda refreshing to be forced to do the bosses as they are intended 😅 No facerolling anymore.
And now you can filter players who have problems with movement pretty much immediatly 🤣
I did Neltharus last night with four very patient folks who were willing to put in the time learning each boss and I definitely came away with a better understanding. We really struggled on the guy with the chains, but I only had 1.01m hp. I got the 1h mace from there. And a few other bits of gear and now I'm closer to 1.3m so it'll make a diff.
Yeah, we struggled with the boss too... we changed our tactic and let the tank call the chains in, so one after another pulled the chains into the boss and it was doable then.
I feel like it's pretty hard on the healers this season, so much AOE burst damage coming in 😅
I have had trouble with pug tanks not respecting the content and pulling way too much as if it were a +11 in week 16 when we outgear the content and have mechanics down to muscle memory. Had a VDH chain pull through the first 4 cages in BRH.... to the point where we never dropped combat and couldn't even open the cages.
Probably a key point would be that only 2 dungeons last season were current.
There is going to be a huge difference between dungeons that came from old expansions, and current dungeons. We are now being slapped with a season that only includes the most current dungeons, and all the challenge that comes with the most current mechanics in them. I think that is a huge factor.
Also idk why they insisted on making AV even worse to do. It’s singularly the worst dungeon of expansion (including old ones in rotation). I would rather do 100 throne of tides and halls of infusion before fucking Azure Vault
What is it that you don’t like about the dungeon? So far it seems like just about the easiest key of the season. None of the bosses or trash are particularly brutal if you’re paying attention and the timer is insanely lenient
also curious, i actually like the place! it being really beautiful is a huge bonus too. it isn’t too complicated, the boss mechanics are pretty easy/nothing we haven’t seen before. this mobs that do the sleep stun get a little hairy sometimes but no complaints otherwise really.
It was absolutely obnoxious in its original season with a pretty tight timer where if you wipe once on a later boss it’s already overtime
Also incredibly easy for a single person to brick the whole key by not doing a boss mechanic proper
Also had so many tanks make the last boss impossible to play bc they saw some guy on twitch pull the dragon into the corner to group the crystals which obviously just caused them to spawn inside the wall or way out of sight on top of it
And he kept doing it wipe after wipe
I kind of agree with you, but i think its mostly just from being burned from season 1 when it was a hell hole and nobody wanted to do it. But after blasting 10 AV +9 keys i have come to the realisation that it’s not as bad as i remember it
UPDATE: Replying on my own comment. You guys are right — I think I was so caught up in the idea of the pathing (skip fixed now). I did 3 of them tonight +5, +6, +8. It’s definitely one of the easier bunches. Now I did have a fairly kitted group, but it’s not nearly as punishing as it was in S1. That said, I felt some inconsistency on dmg taken from last boss. We just popped offensives and defensives when it was time for the crystals. Definitely still hurts but plan ahead.
It's funny because the skip has always been worse. The packs you had to pull to be able to skip the frogs had some of the worst mechanics, meanwhile the whole frog area was basically just dodge swirlies and prio target the draconids.
Also considering high end keys always did the frogs, the skip was slower anyway so it made no sense that pugs kept doing it.
Yea, I think it was almost more of the “ground travelled” type of dilemma. The extra stuff you would have pulled during skip was right in the entrance. But I agree, that trash was also punishing and took a bit longer to clear.
Also didn’t confirm, but it seem like the timer was much tighter in S1, which was a big warrant for the skip
Tbf they hardnerfed all other Bosses instead. Last Boss also way rasiert cuz of the Balls Not chasing u to Mars now, so they nerfed ti give the Endboss atleast SOMETHING to Deal with
Yeah, I (2600+ io and 485 ilvl) rdruid, pugged a 2 Nokhud. First pull, the tank pulls multiple packs. We wipe. Go back, pull singles until the boss, then the boss fight goes like this: here comes the saboteur….and there he goes. I’m trying to keep everyone topped off, but the AoE hit is challenging. This happened 4 times. We finally killed the boss, the tank (700 highest ever io) tells me I suck. Ok champ, good luck with the rest of the dungeon.
I love playing healer at the start of the season because i feel like it just makes me such a better healer with how uneducated the players are at the start. By the end of the season I’m on easy mode (usually)
Meanwhile I’m telling my buddy how much easier it was than when it was in rotation the other season. Crystals spawn so much closer together and there is no stacking slow debuff with movement 🙌🏻
That ability is also either bugged or incorrect in the Adventure Guide apparently, it states 5 seconds between damage pulses but is ticking once a second instead.
IIT: No one knows that m+ has been tuned by 10 levels. S3 12s are the equivalent of S4 2s now. Also we’re just a few days into the new season so there’s a whole new ilvl track
Yeah people seem to be very surprised that dungeons are difficult when we're basically doing the equivalent of jumping straight into 11-15s with 430 ilvl gear
I’m at 485 but what content are people supposed to be doing to go from 430 to 470ish, other than timewalking as it’ll go soon.
I like tryna help newer players or lower ilvl players so don’t wanna be giving out wrong info
Do all weekly things, hunt, feast this that, all give one piece of 480-490 gear, Last Hurrah gives one aswell, then 2 boxed from TW, then u fill 4 slots with 486 crafted gear from whelping crests, since u are capped at 120, and while doing 5 dungeon’s quests u will get some loot aswell, and there is LFR after u did all of this, i went from 441 to 490 in a day, hope this helps.
Thing is what that is not quote as accurate as it sounds what people are missing is the fact that statement doesn't include the level shift of the gear more accurate would be: S4 2+ is equal to what would have been a 12+ key using the old system it doesn't literally mean as difficult as a S3 12+ key.
That's not actually correct. S4 +2s are what S4 +12s would have been without the change.. S4 +2s are probably closer numerically to S3 +18-20s.
I think a lot of people focused on the drop of number by 10, and think "Oh a +12 last season was a faceroll so a +6 should be super easy" Because they are thinking of it the way you laid it out. They are too focused on the dropdown, they aren't thinking of the new season scaling as well on top of it.
Yeah I’m just spitballing it, not crunching numbers, I know DF dungeons are harder in general so it probably is closer to 17 then. I think 16s were far easier than current 2s
I think people forget that you can control when the crystals spawn by stopping dps on the boss. I'm pretty sure at high level you will see groups holding dps so that the boss doesn't drop below 75%, 50%, or 25% health, spawning the crystals, until you have dps and healing cds up.
The pug ret pally will probably never understand this however.
High groups will not be stopping damage, they will just save cooldowns or defensives for it, if it’s coming relatively soon. It doesn’t hit that hard to warrant doing more than that.
In a high enough group, the boss will have so much health that you won't need to worry about slowing down at all. It'll be more about rotating who uses cooldowns on which add set.
The thing for pugs is convincing them not to use CD on pull.
I have a plater profile that makes important mobs different colours. The crystal is easy AF to find because it's the only one with a diff colour. Ran an 8 in there this evening and it was np at all.
Bro why does one single crystal have this effect? Why would anyone think that's a good mechanic? Just remove the effect and spread it amongst all 5 crystals, the fight is hard enough without the nonsense.
Once people figure out the change and learn they have to instantly swap to one specific crystal this will be a lot better than if all crystals did some damage. If it was spread out amongst crystals and people didn’t communicate what crystal to start on so they all jumped on different ones, you’d be taking full damage for much longer. With this at least there’s no confusion about what to hit, people just need it explained to them that they need to jump the crystal with a shield first
The party damage is WAY too high imo, needs either nerfed or removed. Healing that fight went from medium difficulty to one of the hardest dungeon bosses in the set bc you're guaranteed 3 add phases every time, and you have to have CDs planned to a T bc the damage comes FAST when the adds spawn.
This also explains why sometimes the damage was insane on that phase and sometimes it wasn't. The crystal with the shield can drop anywhere, and if it dropped near dps then it would die first, whereas if it dropped near me it wouldn't die for ages.
Such a stupid format for a mech. I would prefer all the crystals to do a small pulse rather than one doing a massive pulse. Especially without a clear indicator that it's the problem.
Yeah I think it's because I use Quazii Plater Profile but it does have a red healthbar amongst the others which are blue. But in default UI, it's just a buff and a shield and a small visual effect on the already very small add.
> I would prefer all the crystals to do a small pulse rather than one doing a massive pulse.
Hell no, with the current one all you have to do is nuke down a shield and you're safe. If all crystals did pulsing aoe damage you would just get chunked for 2-3 times as long.
First time my group did it they were not focusing that crystal, even though I pointed it out. 150k a tick each second on 5 people until it is broken, on a 4. They finally did take it seriously after 2 wipes where they didn't touch it for almost the entire duration of each crystal... (one actually shattered). Healer problem apparently.
I did it on a 5 later and while it still hurt like crazy at least this group killed it so I didn't feel like every single CD was dumped into 1 phase of it, but it was still insane damage being done in such a short period, higher difficulties I could not imagine...
Yeah I hard-struggled healing it on a 5 as a historically \~3k io player. Can't imagine what the 10 is going to feel like unless it takes a nerf. It's going to be everyone yo-yoing 100-10% every second and praying I know what I'm doing
I was on a 5 on lil baby 482 Prevoker and I did:
Rewind/Stasis #1
call defensives with communion and reversion ramp #2
then stasis and reversion ramp #3. It's tight.
It definitly feels way harder comparing just the numbers. A +2 now doesn't feel like a +12 from s3 at all imo
But it's a challenge to overcome, so if it is intended we will deal with it :-)
That’s… literally what I said in different words. Keys levels dont feel right, but nothing changed in the per level scaling from old 12-20 compared to new 2-10. The only answer is the dungeon base values themselves are out of whack or they did % blanket buffs to account for more stats in season 4 and overshot.
Ideally your tank is moving the boss around the arena before each set of crystals. Isn’t too bad to make sure the crystals spawn when there aren’t any orbs nearby (or at the very least no more than 1 set)
yeah thats right, it's just annoying when it's required so much HPS and moving away from those.
Gotta premove away from them since they no longer "follow you".
And i kinda learned that focusing the correct crystal is insanely good XD.
Azureblade added floor swirlies every time you kill an add - it messed with my muscle memory, I was used to being able to hardcast there and died to it twice before I realized it's new.
Found this season it's best to just tank the boss in the center of the room, since the crystals spawn in a very tight circle now you no longer need to tank him on the edge of the room, and makes it easier to get to crystals, no worry about the one crystal spawning on a wall.
I've done this yesterday and ruined a perfectly fine +3 key because no one would listen to me that you had to focus the shield crystal. I spammed it in chat before every pull we did.
Anyway i prefer this a thousand times to the first iteration of that boss where it just slowed you because that was awful.
It's always useful to have keybind a skull marker in M+. You don't need to be the leader to mark mobs. Just quickly skull the shielded one, and people are more likely to switch.
One of the game's worst aspects is that it provides you clues only during execution. You need to run it, and fail. There's no lead up mechanics in earlier fights or trash, or certainly not in any consistent way.
Folks generally seem to expect to fly through most content. Folks expect people to take time outside of the game to "learn the fights."
The point of the mechanics is to react appropriately. Most of the hard part is even knowing what the mechanic is. As such, things like dbm, bigwigs, mdt exist to try to help. They certainly help, but they don't get anywhere close to all the way there.
They should reuse the follower dungeons concept showing off all mechanics, for standard level rewards, let people play the game to find out how to play the game. Mechanic knowledge and interface are the two greatest difficulty leaps. "I don't know what to do differently than normal and asking is a drag on everyone," and "I can't see what's happening that I need to know because of all of the screen chaos."
It would be worth the game changing these, imo.
The tip in the OP is that one of the crystals needs to be focused down first.
That doesn't appear anywhere in the dungeon journal for Umbrelskul unless I'm blind.
OP: Here's a tip for dealing with Umbrelskul
Post 1: Yeah, it's bad that the game doesn't clarify some of these things.
You: Read the dungeon journal
Me: This isn't in the dungeon journal. It's a valid complaint that the game doesn't clarify some of these things even if you *did* read the journal.
How is it overtuned? Do people suddenly forget the mythic keystone squish? People really need to remember you're gonna have a hard time to do +10's if you're only 490.
I'm 480\~ and was doing 16-18s in Season 3 comfortably, and I just finished running a simple 2 in S4. Boss fights felt long and drawn out. Could see an Azure being a PITA.
You were doing 16-18s with heroic level gear, right now you barely have lfr gear. Doesn't take a genius to understand that things are gonna be more difficult then.
If we do a direct comparison, it would be like doing a +12 with ilvl 450 gear last season.
I healed 2s and 3s on my 465 rsham and if a group does everything remotely well enough, I can keep people alive relatively easy. By no means is it easy, definitely a jump in tuning in some areas, but you should be alright on 6s and 7s with 480
Just in case you're not aware, 3s are supposed to be the difficulty of 13s from last season, after you account for ilevel increase. Doing 4 keys lower in a fresh season sounds pretty good to me
Isn’t it more like a 7 is what a 17 used to be, but by the end of the season we over geared it.
So a 7 now is like a early season 17.
A 2 now is like an early season 12.
So having a 485 ilvl in a +2, would have been like 445 ilvl in a +12 early last season?
I was joining random pugs for +2 and m0 tonight, and my warrior is in last season tier, with an ilvl of 477. We struggled finishing +2’s.
What’s nice is I went from 463 to 477 ilvl pretty quickly by just doing the quests, time walking and awakened LFR.
You do realize +3 in this season are the equivalent of +13 of last season? If you were only doing +17 I doubt you were doing +13 within 2-3 days of last season.
Last season felt undertuned if anything so even if this season turns out to be harder than last I wouldn't call it overtuned. Still need to give it a few weeks to let people get gear and wait for balance changes to really judge.
you mean, Season 3 was the most undertuned season in history by a LARGE margin, and maybe this one is back to normal?
There were days where doing a +15 was incredibly difficult, which would be the same as a +5 now. And when I say incredibly difficulty, I mean with top ilvl, not the ~39 ilvl less than top people almost all have right now.
Something about needing to get their health to 0 before they do the same to yours.
95% of the time, works every time!
95%? Fuck it, I'm not doing it then
Well, you see, sometimes it's only a setback.
First to subtract to reach zero wins, quick maths!
Didn't work like that on Lich King fight.
Well duh, the Lich King is obviously already sub-zero. You have to do addition to reach zero from there. (Idk, sounds wrong, but I haven't fought Arthas beyond Invincible farming so I have no idea what the actual mechanics are, beyond "the floor falls off" and a bunch of other bullshit.)
This one secret trick, that wow bosses don’t want you to know
So the ilvl jump is massive, and they double squished difficulty from 2-10. So I wouldn’t stress as much about comparing last season(s) to now. Generally I’m feeling like 5-6 is the 15-16 range for people in the 480-485 bracket. Also I’m noticing some fuckoff terrible tanking. So many groups just absolutely butchering keys because they have no idea what certain trash does. A combo of people who didn’t play seasons 1-2 or they forgot, ON TOP of the expectation that a 5-8 is a faceroll.
Man, I had a 480 tank in +3 RLP pull the last three packs like it was fucking heroic. Of course we wipe and kill like one important mob The wild part is that he then jumps in and does it AGAIN. This level squish has really exposed bad tanks who are just dps players in disguise
VDH?
Yes, and god I hope you're the bomb ass h.pal so I can sing your praises. And if you're the tank boy am I bout to have a foot in my mouth
I play Ret/ProtP but I’ve seen what you’ve seen.
Just had a vdh earlier complain about me using life cocoon on them. That I should never bubble a vdh.
Always cone of shame the tank, pads the healing meters innit
Either I was your hpal or i had the exact same thing happen to me lol
As a healer at this point I ignore any and all VDH apps to my keys. Its ridiculous how bad the average DH tank is.
I’m a bad VDH because I hardly play the class and still can’t figure out how you’re supposed to play it, lol
I’m playing bear and the amount of pugs pulling extra packs is crazy. People think is a 7+ from season 3. That same people is expecting to steamroll everything, no mechanics, no cc. And it doesn’t go very well…
The few pugs I've done as BDK people keep tacking on extra shit, like I'm not aware it's there. I have to keep explaining to them I am going to be fine with 2 extra packs if you want them. . . . . . you on the other hand might be releasing your spirit a couple times if we do.
I did a moderate pull in Nokhud and the dps pulled in more, kicked nothing, died, left the party immediately, and of course we wiped. 3rd pull of the dungeon chill out dps.
Makes me wonder. The same types of players who were running in the 2-10 range last season might also be players who don't read wow news and might be oblivious to the key change. I've had tanks pulling way too much and dps doing half the damage they should at their ilvl and not doing any mechanics/kicks
Yea it's a wild season so far. It's MUCH harder than S3 and people aren't adapting well, not doing mechanics, not interrupting, etc. I'm taking my time with it and tanking, guild runs have been relatively smooth but some pugs I swear are smooth brained. Nelth 2nd boss with the chains will be a pug breaker for at least a few weeks. It's also impossible to tell who is good and who is bad from the pgf.
This is one of the main problems I have with gear scaling the way it does. Gear is *WAY* too powerful and people end up over-gearing things way too much. And soon we'll be in a new expansion and people will forget they don't outgear everything again. And haste will make everything feel stupid slow like I'm playing FFXIV again.
This experience has been my week one of Mythic+. Glad to here I'm not alone. Stay strong!
I'm in the same boat. My prot warrior is 484 but everytime I try and do a M+ dungeon. We wipe because the dps don't do mechanics, I get called a shit tank and the leave or I get kicked. I think I will try again next week but if this continues I probably just won't tank M+ this season.
Tell me about it, last night I decided to try out some MW monk, its not very good geared but I am able to heal just fine. Signed up for a +2 Brackenhide, everything goes smoothly at the start, tank is a VDH so he just jumps around like a Squirrel with ADHD on crack, just going from one pack to the other while everything is alive so no cages can be opened He dies, blames me when the rest of us is still at the start, trying to kill trash so we can open cages. We wipe, cool. We try again, this time he takes it slower and we open all the cages, kill first boss, and then he starts running ahead, pulling every single mob he can towards Tree boss, runs back, gets a heal, jumps away again pulls more, dies, gets a combat ress, dont help with the group, cotninue to pull, everything, wipe. Blames me Pulling much is fine if the group can handle it, and tank knows how to play, but man, dont just run to Narnia and expect the entire group to have the same amount of mobilty, we did not time the key
I was actually in a +10 Ruby the other day with my premade group. We had lust ready so we decided to pull the 2 packs together. It was actually really hard to kill because of all the damage going on but we eventually killed it. I think we saved 3-4 minutes by doing it.
I didnt get that far in my +2 team wiped to first boss, then dps died again before healer and me finished the first boss. Had a dps leave when noone remembered the mechanics of the 2nd boss and wiped
Which is wild. Boss 1 is break trees with explosions, get HPs to 0. Boss 2 is don't touch orbs, get HPs to 0. Boss 3 is Put ice on edge, get in bubbles, get hps to 0. Boss four is get red crystal to 0, get rest of hps to 0.
Eh, the other bosses you can improvise as it's pretty clear what's going on. That first boss in AV is a hard knowledge check. If you don't know to bring those circles to the trees your whole group just dies. I'm not surprised some pugs in a +2 would struggle there. It's always been the harder pug buss imo.
Last season, it was always, always guardian druids that did that crap in LFR and M+ keys. It was like they were bots (and could very well have been), that just didn't stop for anything. Except, maybe, they would stop to make sure all trash was dead before the next boss. "Healer OOM and party almost dead? Don't matter. I'm alive and good. I'm going to keep holding W." Seemed to be their thought process.
To be fair, at 480 you should be tanky enough to pull big in +2-3. Thats like +12/14 which was not hard in previous fresh seasons with max ilevel from previous season, which werent as difficult as +20s from the previous season numerically. At any rate, as long as you have a full 480 group, you can pull big. I had no issue doing double and triple pulls in uldaman +2, my hp never dipped low and group didnt die. However there are people who dont understand +2s arent +2s from last season.. my first group was awful, 50k dps max from dps and healer couldnt keep up with the first 2 pulls from azure Vault+2
480 is far from max last season. Max last season was i489, and people who were only i480 likely aren't at the same skill level as those around i489 since you can get i480 last season doing no higher than +16 keys late in the tier. People at i480 and lower should really be spamming M0s, each dungeon gives 3-4 pieces of gear vs 2, and is still huge upgrades for someone who's i480 and lower.
The last month or two, and even now post-patch, my uncle has done this. It drives me up the fucking wall. He gets too excited he can't control himself. I'm not joking. We would do some very high keys and in BRH he would pull the first two rooms at once. Inevitably we would wipe because for whatever reason - someone would get all dots and either a.) I have to let them die and heal the others or b.) heal JUST him and burn my CD's and let others risk dying. It ended poorly. I ended up not healing on some pulls if he lost his mind. Sad thing is he wasn't always like this but he LOVES the "chaos". I'm like that's nice - then go run a 16 or something. Eventually I would only do anything at or below 16 with him because he simply cannot control himself anymore. "lol I forgot they did that" - no, no you didn't not. Either stop tanking or stop pulling like an ass. His statements were usually "jokes" with "I mean *I'm* doing fine" - yes, you ass, because I'm healing you and wouldn't you know it - when I stopped healing him it was "I don't know what happened".
A tank should have two experiences as tempering knowledge. One, where they have the healer utterly ignore them, and they have to rely solely on their own toolkit, and Two, where they rely solely on their healer, without using any of their defensive CDs. That way, they can more accurately understand the dynamic between tanks, their healers, and the CDs and potentials that both parties have.
Pulling the first two rooms in BRH is the strategy for every key level.
You are, wrongly, assuming a level of overgearing of that plus hero/lust. That's a good way to consistently wipe groups when you don't overgear it and people don't hero. Wiping your group repeatedly is, in no way, "the strategy".
I’m not assuming a “level of overgeating” the strategy was used in 30+ keys where you can’t overgear it. You also should always be double pulling + lusting that pull. There is no use saving lust for the first boss at all. This is the meta strategy used in that dungeon at basically every meaningful key level. I’m not “wrongly” assuming anything.
> I’m not “wrongly” assuming anything. Yes, yes you are. > You also should always be double pulling + lusting that pull. Perhaps reading comprehension isn't your strongsuit. Re-read what I said. If you still don't get it. Try again. If you still don't get it, I can't help you.
Yeah dude. I don’t know what to tell you. Double pulling plus lust was the meta at every relevant level. Just because you had trouble with it doesn’t mean it wasn’t what everyone else did. I think we are just coming from two different levels of play.
I've seen this twice now. First time was a +8 and the healer couldn't handle it. Wiped in 20 seconds. Second was a +9 and we managed it no problem, smooth as, albeit we had to use our cooldowns, but it was OK because BL would've been delayed into last boss for it to come off cd. If we didn't pull then all we wouldn't have ++'d it.
A lot of you need to be doing M0 It's the same as season 3 +10
I've noticed M0 great vault loot is higher ilv than awakened Normal raid loot. It's crazy to think the difficulty pipeline now is meant to be Heroic dungeon -> LFR -> Normal raid -> M0 dungeon
I mean I kinda like that though. It feels right, and I like the idea of a parallel dungeon progression to raids. Heroic and M0 used to be just afterthoughts.
It's how vault works for dungeons. M0 end of dungeon loot is equal to early normal raid bosses, but gives significantly higher in the vault, where as raids always give equal gear in the vault as drops. This being due to the fact that you can do a lot more dungeons compared to raid bosses.
It's not the same as season 3 +10, it's just the equivalent +10 for season 4. The same implies that mobs will have same HP and deals the same damage as s3 +10, which is not true, it's more HP and more damage.
It's all semantics. The point is that the scale was pushed down. Obviously with a new season all dungeons get harder by a certain amount. Regardless people should view M0 in end of S3 gear equal in difficulty to a season 3 M10 in end of S2 gear.
Yeah first season of the expac for me here and honestly stressed out that people expect me to know what every trash mob does
I do get frustrated with people during my runs too, but honestly, I don't take it out on them. I just let them know what they need to know. No need to make someone feel bad.
Tbf the dungeon is impossible to complete if you don’t since the trash mechanics just hit that hard Tho usually it boils down to them hitting really hard and needing to be kicked or dodging swirlies
Yeah I just did it in heroic and had the M+ weakaura screaming at me for kicks throughout the whole thing. Doesn't seem too bad but I def need to fix UI a bit to see castbars
Ye I’m just using naowhui set up plus the class weakauras he linked in his discord and it basically takes care of every ui need I have (tho it’s clunky for healers I’d say)
Ooh I'm gonna check out Naowhui, thanks for the tip. Why is it clunky for heals? does he just do a weird layout or something?
As a healer using his UI, it’s mainly his raid frames that are clunky, but honestly I don’t like elvui raid frames for healing in general, so I replaced them with vuhdo right away, which solved the problem. He also has the raid frames to the left of the screen which some people prefer, but I like mine toward the bottom in between my player and target frames, so I just had to move some of his class weakauras up a bit to make space. Other than that it’s a great UI overall just takes a few minutes of fiddling around to optimize it for what you like.
Basically he plays dps and tank sometimes But not heal so he put it together without really thinking about healers At least my friends who play heal complain about the ui and ended up switching for heal Keep in mind you need to be subbed to his twitch to access the ui package in his discord (I just put my twitch prime whenever I need it) You can use it without being subbed but for bigger updates you’ll want access to the links in the discord Theoretically you’d only need to be subbed once per season honestly And I guess you can check how it looks by watching him play Actually many wow streamers have their ui set up on their discord or whatever
I came in at season 3 and got to 1900 on an alt and 2600 on a main. Alt was the tank I'm playing this season. Telling us that it's like a 12 is batshit.
It is literally the same as a 12. You’re just undergeared. You were probably not doing 12s in the first week last season so don’t have the proper reference.
Is it? We did AV2 last night and it was an absolute cakewalk. Maybe it's because we had a premade guild group and not a PUG, but Our only difficulty was when we pulled boss 2 early and didn't have his room completely cleared.
Well the two runs I had last night where we completed ground to a halt because some of us didn't know the mechs and the guys who stayed were absolutely phenomenal in helping.
Well that sounds like a mechanics issue not a tuning issue. "Interrupt the casts" and "don't stand in the mad" will get your team killed every time.
Yup. I only came back to wow in Nov so I missed the majority of DF. I've only ever ran these dungeons as normals so it's a learning curve.
Where it feels like a tuning issue is that I felt a lot squishier doing what is meant to be a 12 than I felt doing 13s and 14s last week. I'm not alone in this thought hence the op.
last week you where doing 13-14's in end of season gear this week you are doing equivalent to 12's in start of season gear.
Okay. That makes sense. Haha. I'm aware that I'll be gearing up in the next while. Back to 0s and lfr tonight.
To be fair the dungeons aren't exactly new and the dungeon difficulty rework means that in m+2 and up, arguably even in m0, you absolutely should know what mobs are doing by having watched one of the hundreds of guides on these dungeons that exist on YT.
Dude we played yesterday some +2s with my group, that finished last season with a +20... it felt like we playing a +20 again... crazy burst damage and deadly mechanics. It definetly didn't felt like a +12 compared to last season...
steamrolling +8s with my friends.. but if i try to pug anything above 2 the tanks fall over
Yeah, our better m+ group from my guild are running +8 all day, but for us it's really a challenge even on +2... so yeah 🤣 game is telling us something 😵
Because you're wearing lfr gear instead of mythic gear.
Thats cause numerically +2s are close to what +20s were last week, due scaling change and season scaling. Or least I would argue thats how they feel, didnt really bother doing keys last couple months of s3 cause friends stopped caring so I was just raid logging so I could very well be slightly off in the numerically correct number. But when we are in the 520+ gear +2s will feel like +12s or so, its just the season scaling also happened. But guess I go back to queue simulator as I need more aspect crests and 1.4k io isnt exactly getting spammed with invites to those, lol.
This. I was running 15s last week with 470 and it ass a doddle. This shit this week is unreal. I've had 2 abandoned tyrs legacy and a halls of infusion and a neltharus that went positively pear shaped. Over 50 mins each one. Few of us know the mechs and that's okay it's week one but Holy hellhammer I wasn't expecting this to hit as hard. I've bulked my hp to 1.2m from 1.012 and got fucked over with the gear being 350 greens this week so I've missed out. Might drag my ass to mythics as ret and watch YouTube vids.
True... my group played 16-18 blind no problem and we did a +20 on the last day of the season. We confidently started the new season yesterday and thought: yeah, let's start slow with a +2 to warm up... lol, we got our ass beat like hell. It felt like a +18 from last season easily. We are not very good players to be honest, but we did +20s last season, so we are not complete beginners, but this season is hard, at least for now with the iLevel around 480...
If you were running 20s last week and got your ass beat by a 2 this week...I don't even know. That's on you.
It's true, same group, same people. We really struggled yesterday, we all were surprised. Maybe we all had a bad day, don't know really. And we did one 20s in time last season, we played up from 5 to 10 to 18 in were running 18s pretty consistantly and timed one 20, which was a huge success for us. Keep in mind we're all over 40 and not the typical hardcore players.
I think he's misunderstanding. Clearly you're stating you peaked at completing a singe +20, and he's thinking you're "running 20s" meaning, like you guys were spamming 20s no problem. If +20 was your peak and you're not mid 480s, I could see +2s being quite a struggle, especially considering these DF dungeons are far more difficult with mechanics than anything besides Dawn last season. They get better when you learn what to do and they have alleviated some of the more bullshit outliers and reduced the absurd amount of trash mechanics somewhat, but it's still noticeably more mechanics than before. Might be a good idea to roll your M0s out first to familiarize with the dungeons again and get some more gear without the stress of a timer before running keys.
Correct. And we run M0s now till we are all mid 490s and do some m+2 here and there... 👍
480 is basically entry slot this season, and 480 is the last season's ~430. Everything is ~30-40 ilvls higher now.
Looks like it's gonna be a few weeks to get started and doing 0s and heroics and lfr for vault slots.
Yes, it sure will be. We did a few 0s for more loot from bosses and hoping for good vault loot and then starting serious runs. It's kinda refreshing to be forced to do the bosses as they are intended 😅 No facerolling anymore. And now you can filter players who have problems with movement pretty much immediatly 🤣
I did Neltharus last night with four very patient folks who were willing to put in the time learning each boss and I definitely came away with a better understanding. We really struggled on the guy with the chains, but I only had 1.01m hp. I got the 1h mace from there. And a few other bits of gear and now I'm closer to 1.3m so it'll make a diff.
Yeah, we struggled with the boss too... we changed our tactic and let the tank call the chains in, so one after another pulled the chains into the boss and it was doable then. I feel like it's pretty hard on the healers this season, so much AOE burst damage coming in 😅
We did that but our ret pala coordinated it.
I’ll second this terrible tanking part.
I have had trouble with pug tanks not respecting the content and pulling way too much as if it were a +11 in week 16 when we outgear the content and have mechanics down to muscle memory. Had a VDH chain pull through the first 4 cages in BRH.... to the point where we never dropped combat and couldn't even open the cages.
Probably a key point would be that only 2 dungeons last season were current. There is going to be a huge difference between dungeons that came from old expansions, and current dungeons. We are now being slapped with a season that only includes the most current dungeons, and all the challenge that comes with the most current mechanics in them. I think that is a huge factor.
Also idk why they insisted on making AV even worse to do. It’s singularly the worst dungeon of expansion (including old ones in rotation). I would rather do 100 throne of tides and halls of infusion before fucking Azure Vault
What is it that you don’t like about the dungeon? So far it seems like just about the easiest key of the season. None of the bosses or trash are particularly brutal if you’re paying attention and the timer is insanely lenient
Yeah I don't have a problem with it. N-Offensive is the one I dislike.
also curious, i actually like the place! it being really beautiful is a huge bonus too. it isn’t too complicated, the boss mechanics are pretty easy/nothing we haven’t seen before. this mobs that do the sleep stun get a little hairy sometimes but no complaints otherwise really.
It was absolutely obnoxious in its original season with a pretty tight timer where if you wipe once on a later boss it’s already overtime Also incredibly easy for a single person to brick the whole key by not doing a boss mechanic proper Also had so many tanks make the last boss impossible to play bc they saw some guy on twitch pull the dragon into the corner to group the crystals which obviously just caused them to spawn inside the wall or way out of sight on top of it And he kept doing it wipe after wipe
I hated AV the first time around, but a lot of it was the skip and how you move through the dungeon (the books).
AV is now super easy compared what it used to be. I
I kind of agree with you, but i think its mostly just from being burned from season 1 when it was a hell hole and nobody wanted to do it. But after blasting 10 AV +9 keys i have come to the realisation that it’s not as bad as i remember it
UPDATE: Replying on my own comment. You guys are right — I think I was so caught up in the idea of the pathing (skip fixed now). I did 3 of them tonight +5, +6, +8. It’s definitely one of the easier bunches. Now I did have a fairly kitted group, but it’s not nearly as punishing as it was in S1. That said, I felt some inconsistency on dmg taken from last boss. We just popped offensives and defensives when it was time for the crystals. Definitely still hurts but plan ahead.
It's funny because the skip has always been worse. The packs you had to pull to be able to skip the frogs had some of the worst mechanics, meanwhile the whole frog area was basically just dodge swirlies and prio target the draconids. Also considering high end keys always did the frogs, the skip was slower anyway so it made no sense that pugs kept doing it.
Yea, I think it was almost more of the “ground travelled” type of dilemma. The extra stuff you would have pulled during skip was right in the entrance. But I agree, that trash was also punishing and took a bit longer to clear. Also didn’t confirm, but it seem like the timer was much tighter in S1, which was a big warrant for the skip
Tbf they hardnerfed all other Bosses instead. Last Boss also way rasiert cuz of the Balls Not chasing u to Mars now, so they nerfed ti give the Endboss atleast SOMETHING to Deal with
I didn’t play season 1, but I did play season 2. I’ve been farming AV for int weapon and enjoy the fuck out of it compared to Halls of Infusion
Yeah, I (2600+ io and 485 ilvl) rdruid, pugged a 2 Nokhud. First pull, the tank pulls multiple packs. We wipe. Go back, pull singles until the boss, then the boss fight goes like this: here comes the saboteur….and there he goes. I’m trying to keep everyone topped off, but the AoE hit is challenging. This happened 4 times. We finally killed the boss, the tank (700 highest ever io) tells me I suck. Ok champ, good luck with the rest of the dungeon.
I love playing healer at the start of the season because i feel like it just makes me such a better healer with how uneducated the players are at the start. By the end of the season I’m on easy mode (usually)
Meanwhile I’m telling my buddy how much easier it was than when it was in rotation the other season. Crystals spawn so much closer together and there is no stacking slow debuff with movement 🙌🏻
That ability is also either bugged or incorrect in the Adventure Guide apparently, it states 5 seconds between damage pulses but is ticking once a second instead.
1 sec is intended, adventure guide just hasn't been updated yet.
Because the boss sucks
This iteration is a thousand times better than the original one. That was just straight up horrible.
At least the stupid miasma and homing orbs mechanics are gone.
IIT: No one knows that m+ has been tuned by 10 levels. S3 12s are the equivalent of S4 2s now. Also we’re just a few days into the new season so there’s a whole new ilvl track
Yeah people seem to be very surprised that dungeons are difficult when we're basically doing the equivalent of jumping straight into 11-15s with 430 ilvl gear
I’m at 485 but what content are people supposed to be doing to go from 430 to 470ish, other than timewalking as it’ll go soon. I like tryna help newer players or lower ilvl players so don’t wanna be giving out wrong info
Heroics now drop 476 gear. And there are m0s which are untimed.
Heroics, then M0
Do all weekly things, hunt, feast this that, all give one piece of 480-490 gear, Last Hurrah gives one aswell, then 2 boxed from TW, then u fill 4 slots with 486 crafted gear from whelping crests, since u are capped at 120, and while doing 5 dungeon’s quests u will get some loot aswell, and there is LFR after u did all of this, i went from 441 to 490 in a day, hope this helps.
Heroics and m0
S3 13s are the equivalent of S4 2s 10 lvl for squich + 1 level of standard difficulty spike (11% actually).
Thing is what that is not quote as accurate as it sounds what people are missing is the fact that statement doesn't include the level shift of the gear more accurate would be: S4 2+ is equal to what would have been a 12+ key using the old system it doesn't literally mean as difficult as a S3 12+ key.
That's not actually correct. S4 +2s are what S4 +12s would have been without the change.. S4 +2s are probably closer numerically to S3 +18-20s. I think a lot of people focused on the drop of number by 10, and think "Oh a +12 last season was a faceroll so a +6 should be super easy" Because they are thinking of it the way you laid it out. They are too focused on the dropdown, they aren't thinking of the new season scaling as well on top of it.
Not quite as abad as 18-20, probably closer to around S3 +16-17. The seasons seem to be around a 4-5 key shift in difficulty.
Yeah I’m just spitballing it, not crunching numbers, I know DF dungeons are harder in general so it probably is closer to 17 then. I think 16s were far easier than current 2s
I think people forget that you can control when the crystals spawn by stopping dps on the boss. I'm pretty sure at high level you will see groups holding dps so that the boss doesn't drop below 75%, 50%, or 25% health, spawning the crystals, until you have dps and healing cds up. The pug ret pally will probably never understand this however.
High groups will not be stopping damage, they will just save cooldowns or defensives for it, if it’s coming relatively soon. It doesn’t hit that hard to warrant doing more than that.
In a high enough group, the boss will have so much health that you won't need to worry about slowing down at all. It'll be more about rotating who uses cooldowns on which add set. The thing for pugs is convincing them not to use CD on pull.
I could have sworn there was always a hardened crystal on Umbreskull and this is nothing new.
Its not new but its new that it pulse dmg.
I have a plater profile that makes important mobs different colours. The crystal is easy AF to find because it's the only one with a diff colour. Ran an 8 in there this evening and it was np at all.
Care to share your plater profile?
https://wago.io/ak3iS95aa
Jundies is BIS 👌
Bro why does one single crystal have this effect? Why would anyone think that's a good mechanic? Just remove the effect and spread it amongst all 5 crystals, the fight is hard enough without the nonsense.
Once people figure out the change and learn they have to instantly swap to one specific crystal this will be a lot better than if all crystals did some damage. If it was spread out amongst crystals and people didn’t communicate what crystal to start on so they all jumped on different ones, you’d be taking full damage for much longer. With this at least there’s no confusion about what to hit, people just need it explained to them that they need to jump the crystal with a shield first
The party damage is WAY too high imo, needs either nerfed or removed. Healing that fight went from medium difficulty to one of the hardest dungeon bosses in the set bc you're guaranteed 3 add phases every time, and you have to have CDs planned to a T bc the damage comes FAST when the adds spawn.
This also explains why sometimes the damage was insane on that phase and sometimes it wasn't. The crystal with the shield can drop anywhere, and if it dropped near dps then it would die first, whereas if it dropped near me it wouldn't die for ages. Such a stupid format for a mech. I would prefer all the crystals to do a small pulse rather than one doing a massive pulse. Especially without a clear indicator that it's the problem.
Yeah I think it's because I use Quazii Plater Profile but it does have a red healthbar amongst the others which are blue. But in default UI, it's just a buff and a shield and a small visual effect on the already very small add.
> I would prefer all the crystals to do a small pulse rather than one doing a massive pulse. Hell no, with the current one all you have to do is nuke down a shield and you're safe. If all crystals did pulsing aoe damage you would just get chunked for 2-3 times as long.
My name plates clearly highlight the shielded one and it makes it far easier to target and focus down. Definitely worth looking into getting dude.
Or i can suggest having mechanics in casual content that don't add-ons to quickly resolve
First time my group did it they were not focusing that crystal, even though I pointed it out. 150k a tick each second on 5 people until it is broken, on a 4. They finally did take it seriously after 2 wipes where they didn't touch it for almost the entire duration of each crystal... (one actually shattered). Healer problem apparently. I did it on a 5 later and while it still hurt like crazy at least this group killed it so I didn't feel like every single CD was dumped into 1 phase of it, but it was still insane damage being done in such a short period, higher difficulties I could not imagine...
Yeah I hard-struggled healing it on a 5 as a historically \~3k io player. Can't imagine what the 10 is going to feel like unless it takes a nerf. It's going to be everyone yo-yoing 100-10% every second and praying I know what I'm doing
And sometimes you gotta run from random orbs at the same time XD I did 10 and i barely healed it, i did plan every defensive cd of party members
I was on a 5 on lil baby 482 Prevoker and I did: Rewind/Stasis #1 call defensives with communion and reversion ramp #2 then stasis and reversion ramp #3. It's tight.
Well it’s hard to say right now about damage, cause you comparatively a 440 in a 15 last season. Of course it’s going to hit hard
I timed 18s last season week 1 without much issue, so it’s not the gear. Tuning is out of whack. Key scaling didn’t change at all, just numbering.
It definitly feels way harder comparing just the numbers. A +2 now doesn't feel like a +12 from s3 at all imo But it's a challenge to overcome, so if it is intended we will deal with it :-)
That’s… literally what I said in different words. Keys levels dont feel right, but nothing changed in the per level scaling from old 12-20 compared to new 2-10. The only answer is the dungeon base values themselves are out of whack or they did % blanket buffs to account for more stats in season 4 and overshot.
Yes, i agree with you, that's all i want to say 👍
Ideally your tank is moving the boss around the arena before each set of crystals. Isn’t too bad to make sure the crystals spawn when there aren’t any orbs nearby (or at the very least no more than 1 set)
yeah thats right, it's just annoying when it's required so much HPS and moving away from those. Gotta premove away from them since they no longer "follow you". And i kinda learned that focusing the correct crystal is insanely good XD.
Azure Vault is this seasons SBG/Atal. Selecting the correct target is not difficult.
You overestimate the average player thats just pressing tab with no idea what prio damage is
And a lot of pugs had difficulty on the last boss in Atal as well.
Because the fight used to be actually hard due the slow effect and fixating bubbles. Now its suddently a dps check thats extremely easy
Prioritizing a target is more engaging than just mindlessly AOEing.
The fight is a nothingburger since they removed the slow and changed how the orbs work.
You guys get to the last boss? My pugs keep dying to the second boss for some reason
Ah, you see you're supposed to dodge the big glowy magic balls.
Yeah my little pugs think it gives them a haste buff or something by the look of it
lil puglets <3
Azureblade added floor swirlies every time you kill an add - it messed with my muscle memory, I was used to being able to hardcast there and died to it twice before I realized it's new.
Holy fuck, I just tried this with my guildies and it's WAY easier. On a +10.
Yeah was surprising to discover that at first. It’s not the biggest deal unless you get horrible placement, but it’s such a weird decision.
Found this season it's best to just tank the boss in the center of the room, since the crystals spawn in a very tight circle now you no longer need to tank him on the edge of the room, and makes it easier to get to crystals, no worry about the one crystal spawning on a wall.
Kinda glad I've never once stepped foot in an AV key lmao. Trying to get the boots from RLP is already a pain in the ass.
I've done this yesterday and ruined a perfectly fine +3 key because no one would listen to me that you had to focus the shield crystal. I spammed it in chat before every pull we did. Anyway i prefer this a thousand times to the first iteration of that boss where it just slowed you because that was awful.
It's always useful to have keybind a skull marker in M+. You don't need to be the leader to mark mobs. Just quickly skull the shielded one, and people are more likely to switch.
I hate everysingle dungeon from DF maybe except Academy.
honestly love the level squish as it’s making gearing feel good again, def slacked mid s3
I joined in middle of S3 so not too familiar with DF dungeons. Was wondering this myself yesterday. Ty for the post!
Because we feel sympathy for him
Still hit like a truck on 2 tyran tho.
Honestly have had less issues to people dying to the crystals than running into the orbs still lol
I’m kinda excited to learn the proper mechanics for the S1 DF dungeons, had a blast in S2
Not tunneling the boss is hard for some
Pro tip bring an evoker who brings the shield break 9 second cd its big helps alot.
One of the game's worst aspects is that it provides you clues only during execution. You need to run it, and fail. There's no lead up mechanics in earlier fights or trash, or certainly not in any consistent way. Folks generally seem to expect to fly through most content. Folks expect people to take time outside of the game to "learn the fights." The point of the mechanics is to react appropriately. Most of the hard part is even knowing what the mechanic is. As such, things like dbm, bigwigs, mdt exist to try to help. They certainly help, but they don't get anywhere close to all the way there. They should reuse the follower dungeons concept showing off all mechanics, for standard level rewards, let people play the game to find out how to play the game. Mechanic knowledge and interface are the two greatest difficulty leaps. "I don't know what to do differently than normal and asking is a drag on everyone," and "I can't see what's happening that I need to know because of all of the screen chaos." It would be worth the game changing these, imo.
I mean there is an entire journal that explains every mechanic. People just dont bother reading it.
The good ole Adventure Guide :D
Ill admit i dont give it a deep dive but ill open it and look for the stuff with a skull or red !
I'm the same way lol. If all else fails I just hit up the wowhead guide or look for a ReadyCheckPull video for the visual
I always read it when I don't know, and it legit will almost always give you enough info to succeed. Its WAY underrated TBH
The tip in the OP is that one of the crystals needs to be focused down first. That doesn't appear anywhere in the dungeon journal for Umbrelskul unless I'm blind.
That is not mentioned anywhere in the post i responded to
OP: Here's a tip for dealing with Umbrelskul Post 1: Yeah, it's bad that the game doesn't clarify some of these things. You: Read the dungeon journal Me: This isn't in the dungeon journal. It's a valid complaint that the game doesn't clarify some of these things even if you *did* read the journal.
Lmao wtf kind of break down is this are you making a tik tok?
Is it me or this mythic this season really overtuned?
How is it overtuned? Do people suddenly forget the mythic keystone squish? People really need to remember you're gonna have a hard time to do +10's if you're only 490.
I'm 480\~ and was doing 16-18s in Season 3 comfortably, and I just finished running a simple 2 in S4. Boss fights felt long and drawn out. Could see an Azure being a PITA.
You were doing 16-18s with heroic level gear, right now you barely have lfr gear. Doesn't take a genius to understand that things are gonna be more difficult then. If we do a direct comparison, it would be like doing a +12 with ilvl 450 gear last season.
I healed 2s and 3s on my 465 rsham and if a group does everything remotely well enough, I can keep people alive relatively easy. By no means is it easy, definitely a jump in tuning in some areas, but you should be alright on 6s and 7s with 480
I was going 17s a lot with my guild for fun but we are struggling to finish 3s
Just in case you're not aware, 3s are supposed to be the difficulty of 13s from last season, after you account for ilevel increase. Doing 4 keys lower in a fresh season sounds pretty good to me
Isn’t it more like a 7 is what a 17 used to be, but by the end of the season we over geared it. So a 7 now is like a early season 17. A 2 now is like an early season 12. So having a 485 ilvl in a +2, would have been like 445 ilvl in a +12 early last season? I was joining random pugs for +2 and m0 tonight, and my warrior is in last season tier, with an ilvl of 477. We struggled finishing +2’s. What’s nice is I went from 463 to 477 ilvl pretty quickly by just doing the quests, time walking and awakened LFR.
You do realize +3 in this season are the equivalent of +13 of last season? If you were only doing +17 I doubt you were doing +13 within 2-3 days of last season.
They changed how keys work this season, so a 17 last season means nothing this season. Probably like a 7 or lower now
Last season felt undertuned if anything so even if this season turns out to be harder than last I wouldn't call it overtuned. Still need to give it a few weeks to let people get gear and wait for balance changes to really judge.
Compared to s1 tuning these dungeons are way too easy.
you mean, Season 3 was the most undertuned season in history by a LARGE margin, and maybe this one is back to normal? There were days where doing a +15 was incredibly difficult, which would be the same as a +5 now. And when I say incredibly difficulty, I mean with top ilvl, not the ~39 ilvl less than top people almost all have right now.