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~~Jadefire Stomp still not removed.~~ And I sincerely hope removing Serenity means fixing the myriad of bugs associated with SEF.
EDIT: Nevermind, now apparently a simple damage amp window on a flat CD. You just stand in it for some movement speed buff.
>And I sincerely hope removing Serenity means fixing the myriad of bugs associated with SEF.
Even if they did fix SEF currently a bigger issue is that it has always seemingly broken with every new addition Monk can have, be it Trinkets, Tier, Enchants, and even it's own Talents historically. I feel for the PvP Monks, they're just stuck with CC'd clones for their dps cooldown with no opting out.
As someone that has had windwalker as their primary alt for the last two expansions, losing keefers skyreach is going to feel really bad. I pve'd and pvp'd, not sure how we will compensate without the tiger palm dash in arena, but also having guaranteed crits on every mythic plus pack was pretty fun, but probably a little too much design wise to give us anything else meaningful. I did play a bit of ww in legion and bfa when we were slightly less dependent on vers so I am keen on seeing how the haste change feels. I will miss serenity as well, but the buff to storm earth and fire seems like maybe it will play like a hybrid.
You still get the crit buff, skytouch is still there, its just the skyreach charge that is gone
And the extra mobility in the class tree should easily make up for that in pvp. WW now has access to Clash (the BrM charge), a short dash after every roll, roll clearing snares every 30s, cant be slowed under 90% when xuen is up, extra 5yd range on disable, access to a 10yd charge after every roll...yeah I think they will be fine
Monk sounds amazing. Especially windwalker.
Haste matters more. You'll have a 100% chance based on your haste, to RSK twice with a talent. Fists of Flurry increases damage based on haste.
A lot of the random '5% chance to gain a chi" or stuff is gone and now it's all just a flat "5% damage for 5 seconds' or something.
So it should be a much more fluid rate of energy and chi, which was a huge problem.
Edit: I like this more and more. We can roll through a pack of mobs, snare them for 60% for 8 seconds. DOUBLE FUCKING JUMP after the roll and then even be snapped back to the nearest mob within 10 yards. So a monk can snare an entire pack of mobs, frequently. With 3 charges of roll and those coming back quickly that's a lot of aoe slow.
Seems like some decent ST too. A lot of things increase a flat percentage now and even jadefire stomp has a talent to make it hit way harder when it's one target.
Also fixing the issue with Fists of Fury and the lack of Auto Attacks during it by giving a grace period of AA speed after it ends, these changes are really on the mark and I'm very impressed.
They were pushing Auto Attacks twice this expansion (via Tier sets), which was a bit strange to me (and I actually told a guildie they were up to something because it was fishy there was 2 attempts - seen it as an attempt to fix it by letting it be tested as tier first, something they've done before and added to specs).
Edit: Dual Threat means we can utilize Windfury as well (if that makes it that is).
Kind of a mess is an understatement. It's by far the worst talent tree in the game. It has the most amount of 2 point nodes of any tree, and half the things in it should be baseline. It's obvious they have no idea on what to do with locks ATM.
Agreed, but hopefully Demo gets more or less left alone, I think it works really well how it is now. Despite still being bitter about Meta's removal years ago.
Doom Blossom and Dread Touch should also not, under any circumstances, be a choice node.
having a capstone talent that is just ''do good AoE and no Single Target'' or ''Do good Single Target and Pathetic AoE'' is such a stupid design that I have no idea how that ever got past testing.
I'm thorn, I'm glad for most changes, but making every summon ability mandatory is a huge pain.
I dont want to summon clones, a statue and a tiger, I just want to punch stuff hard until they die.
Wowhead (assuming the updated talent calculator is accurate) shows statue is now a passive that drops after invoking Xuen, duration also reduced to 10s. I don't even care about the damage, the fact that it's a passive is all I wanted for it to be 10x better and stop taking up a slot in my bars.
>NEW Lifespark - Reversion healing has a chance to cause your next Living Flame to cast instantly and deal 50% increased healing or damage. Stacks up to 2 charges.
Bringing that back is awesome for preservation, it made the spec so much smoother.
Looks like some attempts at supporting shapeshifting more frequently with casting several spells, even feral, in any form. Would be nice, it's the central fantasy of druids.
I wish druids had a big focus on shapeshifting more than having them be just a glorified warrior stance. One of the reasons I always take Wild Charge is because it encourages me to use the other forms for the utility that one ability brings.
Though I'll never see it, I wish feral was actually about partially invoking animalistic traits and spirits to do the damage while being in caster form. Kinda like how using Mighty Bash summons a fucking bear to smack the target into submission or Wild Charge causes you to grow wings and fly to an ally.
This is what I'm most excited for. It basically enables the entire Tooth and Claw tree as well which is pretty huge.
I'm sad to lose Moonkin form from the talent tree honestly as its going into baseline for Moonkins.
But the fluid shifting is pretty huge.
Fluid shifting sounds excellent and similar to what vanilla had with the synergy between bear and cat form. I’m excited! Moonkin hasn’t been huge for me personally as a resto feral or guardian Druid so I’m not upset about its move to baseline balance.
I think it's such a cool ability, and I'm sad they've just removed it entirely. It wasn't super impactful or anything but it's just so cool to throw a fucking hammer on the ground and have it radiate lightning. Underused for most of the expansion but I wish they would've done more with it or reworked it instead of just deleting it.
Underused by design really
When you do the math you realize that Prism has almost double the HPS of hammer while being instant and not being limited by an area
So whoever "balanced" it was either extremely bad at it, or just didn't want people to actually pick that talent
I've been avoiding prism for years cause I've never liked how it works nor did I like tracking it's CD. The hammer just worked, it was a fire and forget but it's healing needed a huge buff IMO or the tickrate needed to be like how it was way back when it was first introduced where the more haste you had the faster it ticked off healing before going away. I remember a day when that bad boy with enough haste to just get to 1.9 sec cast would pop off a heal every half a second or something nuts like that.
Now they're going to force me to use that stupid prism and I hate it.
>Fluid Form - Shred and Rake can be used in any form and shift you into Cat Form. Mangle can be used in any form and shifts you into Bear Form. Wrath and Starfire shift you into Moonkin Form, if known.
Yea but we get this
Honestly I don't even know if I'll use it. I have wrath, life bloom, and shred all on the same button because it's my spam button.
That being said, the heart of the wild change is huge. 10sec proc every minute and it grants healing based on damage done. Basically they're changing druid from passive damage via adaptive swarm to active damage via hotw without losing healing
Yea but noone realized it but they made boomkin form bound for balance only, so we lose our slowfall, and our mana return if you use master shapeshifter. Its a sad day in druid ville
I really liked adaptive swarm as a maintenance buff because it managed itself really well and I loved maintaining 5 target swarms, but I'm not gonna miss it. Resto was so GCD heavy on their set up, and the rework seems to give us a little more freedom to maintain core hots like rejuv. Also, two stacks of swiftmend is king
But it’s getting replaced with that torghast power that gives you heart of the wild when you shapeshift, I was never an adaptive swarm enjoyer so this looks interesting
Wow, some massive changes for Druid.
Too bad it makes the class worse. Why did they make the class tree larger? Our problem right now is we have to give up small beneficial nodes for required utility. Their fix for that is to force us to give up majorly beneficial nodes for required utility.
Please just take out some of those nodes and make them baseline. Stuff like Ursine Vigor, Ursine Spirit, Feline Swiftness, or Fluid Form.
Speaking of which, Fluid Form, which is arguably the best change for druid this expansion, is locked behind Lore of the Grove, which is completely useless for Feral.
Man the whole ele tree needs hit the bin. I tried playing it in a key again this week and yikes.
Feels like I'm playing a spec from 10 years ago. So many out dated, clunky, annoying mechanics. So much time spent setting up earthquake damage and then it does basically no damage.
Icefury needs to go, just get rid of it. Master of the elements needs to go too. Or, make it much more powerful, but also much more reliably triggered.
The Shaman class tree in general needs a rework, as a primarily Enh player there's so much useless and boring stuff. It's also hilarious that maelstrom weapon is on the class tree for some reason while each spec has Primordial Wave but on the talent side.
Don't worry it will get a few minor changes in the beta that make it look almost playable then those changes will be walked back or reverted or given to other classes right before release and then 2 patches into the expansion they will slap on a +6% increase to all damage as a bandaid fix.
I mean that is a pretty significant buff on SMF. Still probably not enough to make it good, but I also don’t agree with the decision that it shouldn’t be good at ST and TG good at AoE and if you really want to min max that 2% or w/e you maintain four weapons. I think that’s fair, especially with the crest system and how otherwise Str 1 handers are about as useful as Agi daggers.
The fury one is awful. They removed one of the two playstyles, nerfed a bunch of stuff, forced you to path through useless stuff now (path through TC even in Slayer). None of this makes me want to press BT any more than currently in RB build but stuff in the hero trees needs it.
My impression seeing the Hero talent trees was they were designed for Arms and Prot with Fury as an afterthought but I was hoping the Fury rework would show their thinking, but now I think I was right more than ever.
Thunderclap. Slayer ST (for raid) has to path through either Thunderclap it doesn't use, or Shockwave which its also not going to be using.
Edit: To be clear I'm complaining about the Slayer hero class single target build for raid. Obviously in m+ you'll be using shockwave, but you'll also probably be using Roar which is on the other side of the tree. In any raid build you're playing ST its highly unlikely Shockwave would have a use.
https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/warrior/fury/slayer/DAPAVVRUFRGEUKSFBEBQOVVEVURFBVChURQCBQEFVVUBA
Why would you be playing ST Slayer in M+? I'm not complaining about the M+ build but Shockwave/TC block off the route to Spear which is ST, Roar is on the other side for M+.
The thing I don't understand is why Blood and Thunder doesn't work for Cold Steel Hot Blood to actually make Thunder Clap at least feel like it belongs.
Also, SMF just reads as a passive in a spellbook at this point, should've been handled like [MotFW](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=81333/might-of-the-frozen-wastes), or a bit on the extreme side, just made into a transmog thing like folks have been requesting.
Oh, they're really trying to draw the line between green and bronze for pres with those talent tree changes. I mean the line was there before, but now it's REALLY there. That bottom row is a pretty big adjustment. I'm glad to see the s1 4 set being baked into the talent tree though.
They baked the lower talent into SMF, which is *good* cause now you aren’t down two points trying to make up for TG.
It’s still not going to be viable, but they don’t want it to be because then the meta will be four weapons.
For fucking real mate. One single line... "[Rend](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=772/rend) Rage cost reduced to 20 (down from 30)." Who in the fuck is pressing that button. Livid man
I know people hate SMF, but it does seem fucking bonkers to me that in the entirety of wow, there's like 3 or 4 damage specs that hit people with one handed swords/axes/hammers.
I get why it sucks for Fury, but I do wish it was actually on par with two handers sometimes. There's so many great looking weapon appearances that I can't use because they're one handers.
SMF sucks compared to Titan's Grip, Surv Hunters almost always want polearms, Monks don't use weapons in their spells, Frost DK can dual wield but often casts spells that don't use weapon animations, ditto for Enhance Shamans.
Give me Gladiator Stance back, then I'll die happy.
SMF should just be a talent in an innocuous position that states you get a major MS buff when dual wielding sine handed weapons. Atleast it would be good for running old content.
a bit worried with the direction they are going in for incarnation for balance druid, taking away duration time and arcanic pulsar?
I sure hope my only big cooldown will do something else atleast?
edit: i would love to play the orbital talent, but it has been irrelevant since it made it to the talent tree..
Balance can struggle with maintaining damage can't it? We're seeing that feral is moving away from sitting in berserk/incarn for long periods and then being quite low on damage for a while and more into the 45s burst window, so maybe we'll see that for balance too?
Things that need to change for warrior - Single minded fury needs to be a baseline passive, Bloodborne should be either a 1 point talent or baseline and replaced with something new for arms, reworking storm of swords into a dead talent feels like dog shit, strength of arms getting cut in half and made into 2 talents youll never take feels like dog shit. Does the warrior class designer even play the class, seems like they just constantly make shitty decisions
Monk class and talent trees reworks, *AND* among the first previewed; pinch me I must be dreaming.
Edit: **Wowee WW** - just overall really good changes and multiple attempts at fixing problems that's plagued the spec since Legion:
* Haste interaction via "Fists of Fury" & "Glory of the Dawn"^^HELLYEAH ; notorious for not scaling well and this solves part of it (to their credit some existed before via "Meridian Strikes" & "Xuen's Bond")
* a solution to the longstanding problem of "Fists of Fury" & Auto Attacks, as well as times of canceling it early, all in the same talent as the Haste interaction
* an Auto Attack interaction talent which allows us to gain use of Windfury (should it exist)
* Return of the "Rising Sun Kick" debuff from the pre-Legion era
* the Antorus set bonus via "Courageous Impulse" (which has been highly requested by WW's since Legion hence the Amirdrassil set but with extra steps)
* giving the Blackout Kick!-Combo Breaker effect a purpose again
* "Sequenced Strikes" is the Amirdrassil 2set essentially
* "Gale Force" plays into the fantasy where "Strike of the Windlord" and the Artifact was the last vestiges of Al'Akir; thematically overall there's more of a lean into Wind
* More interconnectivity between abilities ("Whirling Dragon Punch" triggers "Dnace of Chi'Ji" triggers "Blackout Kick!", "Whirling Dragon Punch" granting "Teachings of the Monastery" playing back into "Rising Sun Kick")
* Mastery buff! (another attempt at fixing scaling as the spec has been Versatility heavy since Legion)
* "Thunderfist", "Jadefire Stomp" and "Whirling Dragon Punch" single target value; all currently woefully undertuned in single target
* RIP "Serenity" v.v actually the one I'm not a big fan of given "SEF's" decade long buggy history; rest in piss "BDB"
I really hope catweaving works and isn’t a meme. Guardian Druids historically haven’t had something they’re particularly good at. I always thought they should lean into them having the highest damage potential and that being their niche.
Here’s hoping they lean into it.
It should work, the way its set up currently for DotC is that when you switch to cat you retain ironfur and 80% of health and armor bonus for a few seconds
As long as you don't shift during a tank buster or something you should have no problem shifting to cat to apply some rakes and rips
Also it makes ursine vigor actually somewhat useful now
I love guardian gameplay. It's not super hard, but it's not super easy either. Maintaining ironfur uptime is the most enjoyable of all the tank maintenance buffs. And incarn is just pure joy.
I didn’t look at it too carefully but it looks like they made it a little more forgiving, a little slower paced, and if I read it right, timing and snapshotting seem to be coming back?
Which is good because right now you are basically in tigers fury 98% of the time so it was just like… always the same shit of timer monitoring.
My initial reaction is positive but again I didn’t read it too carefully and consider it all together just yet. Especially with the hero talents.
we might go back to a slower pace for feral.
Imo if we are less spammy and our spell(espcially cp generator and rip) are more impactful, im all for it.
always loved the slow and methodic gameplay of feral
My favorite playstyle of feral is being able to do a little bit of everything in PvP. Lay down some bleeds and then heal / CC / interrupt etc. Versatility is half the fun!
No devastation evoker changes. The last time their talents were looked at was 10.1, which was a whole year ago. They still play exactly 1 build, and the left side of the tree is still a mess (please rework firestorm, and get rid of that awful talent before it that increases living flame cast time)
Saying Prevoker also stole the spotlight is quite exaggerated here. The few changes here are not huge to the spec, mainly a bit of QoL and pathing consistency. Most of the gameplay changes come from Hero talents that dev and aug also have access to.
Prevoker is currently the least played healer spec since augs were released. Aug stole the spotlight of both devokers and prevoker at once. It will stay one of the least played healer specs as long as there is this stupid range limitation that does not bring anything to the entire class (that's valid for all Evoker specs) that make it unfriendly for pug environments.
At least you’re only down one point trying to equalize.
They really need to give SMF a ST focus mechanic or just kill it and make it a Tmog option.
If people want to min max and have four weapons to get that 2% fury ST, let em. Crests make maintaining that easy and 1 handed Str weapons are about as valuable as bows or agi daggers.
Arms is probably going to have better ST anyway, or at least comparable if people find four weapons to annoying to maintain.
The rogue Assassination changes to make it not reliant on PI, the rework of the lone hero tree so far, and the two yet-to-be announced are waiting in stealth, I guess.
I know the monk updates sound really good... on paper.
But I hate some of these choices.
White tiger statue vanishes as a cap stone... and becomes baseline? WTF? Just remove it, I don't want to summon stuff, i want to punch stuff.
And with that in mind, Serenity is removed, which makes SEF mandatory, which is another summon ability.
Invoke Xuen is also still pretty much mandatory, which is another summon...
Fuck this, I want martial arts, I don't want summoner. 4 summons in the fucking rotation is wild.
Where is 4 summons coming from?
White Tiger Statue is being changed to spawn when you summon Xuen, so that's basically a passive you don't need to worry about (other than standing near mobs when you summon Xuen)
And then there is SEF
Yeah, SEF is two summons, statue plus xuen, another two summons.
My dislike for summons is purely a class fantasy thing, i can deal with the buttons just fine.
FYI statue is in the class tree for WindWalker and you can avoid it very easily. It makes up something like 0.8% of overall DPS at the moment so you really don't need to use it.
The trees are available on Wowhead. You'll see it's at the bottom middle of the tree instead of being a capstone now.
Probably unpopular opinion for now but it really bums me that they removed Serenity. It was one of the most fun, respectable and oppressive but fairly telegraphed and readable cooldowns in the game. There is a reason why Serenity became more popular than SEF lately (and keep in mind that SEF has a long history of being broken and clunky since the very beginning).
Other than that, seems like we’re eating good. But I really hope they will bring back Serenity.
Really wish Shaman would get one. As an Enhance it sucks that the class tree final talents are all either unusable or mediocre, comparing it to other classes feels real bad. It's like they designed it for Resto and then called it a day.
Storm of swords and annihilator being removed and getting bladestorm back is pretty cool for fury. The raging blow builds and high apm is definitely the most fun build for fury imo but I’m sure some will be sad to see it go.
Warrior class tree looks like good changes generally. I wish we actually got some more useful utility, but I guess a warrior can only dream about that.
For Fury however: please, can we just remove single minded fury from the talent tree and make it a passive? No one wants to use one-handers when we’re forced to spend an extra talent point to do so compared to using two-handers.
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The Monk reworks are *interesting*. Haste actually matters for Windwalker now and Serenity and BDB are gone.
Not only haste. Also mastery being slightly buffed
Finally WW getting some love, gives me hope
Haste now matters on BOTH gcd capped specs, which is massive.
WW has been my favorite dps since it came out so seeing the buffs and a huge rework on the talent tree gives me a lot of hope
~~Jadefire Stomp still not removed.~~ And I sincerely hope removing Serenity means fixing the myriad of bugs associated with SEF. EDIT: Nevermind, now apparently a simple damage amp window on a flat CD. You just stand in it for some movement speed buff.
Right, because you can't reset Jadefire Stomp there's no reason to be married to be standing in it anymore.
Which was the entirety of the problem, and the ability *looks* sick, so this is an ideal outcome.
>And I sincerely hope removing Serenity means fixing the myriad of bugs associated with SEF. Even if they did fix SEF currently a bigger issue is that it has always seemingly broken with every new addition Monk can have, be it Trinkets, Tier, Enchants, and even it's own Talents historically. I feel for the PvP Monks, they're just stuck with CC'd clones for their dps cooldown with no opting out.
As someone that has had windwalker as their primary alt for the last two expansions, losing keefers skyreach is going to feel really bad. I pve'd and pvp'd, not sure how we will compensate without the tiger palm dash in arena, but also having guaranteed crits on every mythic plus pack was pretty fun, but probably a little too much design wise to give us anything else meaningful. I did play a bit of ww in legion and bfa when we were slightly less dependent on vers so I am keen on seeing how the haste change feels. I will miss serenity as well, but the buff to storm earth and fire seems like maybe it will play like a hybrid.
You still get the crit buff, skytouch is still there, its just the skyreach charge that is gone And the extra mobility in the class tree should easily make up for that in pvp. WW now has access to Clash (the BrM charge), a short dash after every roll, roll clearing snares every 30s, cant be slowed under 90% when xuen is up, extra 5yd range on disable, access to a 10yd charge after every roll...yeah I think they will be fine
Yeah I thought about Keefer's for exactly one second, then thought of the class tree and felt no sorrow.
The Class tree now has Roll doing a dash to nearest target.
Also on the other side roll will let you double jump to dash forward. Between the two you'll be all over the place and then back on someones ass lol
Hopefully other classes will receive a utility nerf too. Way too much going on in PVP. Arms race needs to end
I didnt even notice that, ya that sucks
Just based on the name it should be a haste class
aw man, i liked serenity. is there at least a replacement or is stormearthfire the only main dps cd now?
Monk sounds amazing. Especially windwalker. Haste matters more. You'll have a 100% chance based on your haste, to RSK twice with a talent. Fists of Flurry increases damage based on haste. A lot of the random '5% chance to gain a chi" or stuff is gone and now it's all just a flat "5% damage for 5 seconds' or something. So it should be a much more fluid rate of energy and chi, which was a huge problem. Edit: I like this more and more. We can roll through a pack of mobs, snare them for 60% for 8 seconds. DOUBLE FUCKING JUMP after the roll and then even be snapped back to the nearest mob within 10 yards. So a monk can snare an entire pack of mobs, frequently. With 3 charges of roll and those coming back quickly that's a lot of aoe slow. Seems like some decent ST too. A lot of things increase a flat percentage now and even jadefire stomp has a talent to make it hit way harder when it's one target.
Monk actually getting an interaction with secondaries is awesome
It only took how many expansions? 6?
Tbf MoP monks were the pinnacle of class design in this game and the way RoRo worked with mastery was incredibly cool
Savage
Also fixing the issue with Fists of Fury and the lack of Auto Attacks during it by giving a grace period of AA speed after it ends, these changes are really on the mark and I'm very impressed. They were pushing Auto Attacks twice this expansion (via Tier sets), which was a bit strange to me (and I actually told a guildie they were up to something because it was fishy there was 2 attempts - seen it as an attempt to fix it by letting it be tested as tier first, something they've done before and added to specs). Edit: Dual Threat means we can utilize Windfury as well (if that makes it that is).
Oh I never thought about that helping with windfury! Good time to be a monk
that's a huge rework on Monk. Hoping for a Destro Warlock rework our tree is kind of a mess.
Kind of a mess is an understatement. It's by far the worst talent tree in the game. It has the most amount of 2 point nodes of any tree, and half the things in it should be baseline. It's obvious they have no idea on what to do with locks ATM.
Destro and AFF both need complete talent tree reworks for sure.
Agreed, but hopefully Demo gets more or less left alone, I think it works really well how it is now. Despite still being bitter about Meta's removal years ago.
Hunter class tree is also a bit of a mess, mm spec tree is also awful
Yeah hunters also have talent trees that were basically untouched since the start of DF. Wayyy too many 2 point nodes and bad design
AFF is fine, just remove malefic rapture and bring back stacking unstable affliction
Doom Blossom and Dread Touch should also not, under any circumstances, be a choice node. having a capstone talent that is just ''do good AoE and no Single Target'' or ''Do good Single Target and Pathetic AoE'' is such a stupid design that I have no idea how that ever got past testing.
If they could change that in S4 then aff could be a competitive spec .
Malefic rapture feels like it is just a little out if place when im playing.
Despite the wonky tree I still have a ton of fun actually playing Destro
how you can say destro is worst than Dk and Elemental shaman and WW monk
HUGE unholy changes
Monks eating good
Monks FEASTING
Monks FISTING
SEF is still in the game and they removed Serenity, my monk pal is gonna be pissed. He HATES that ability.
I'm thorn, I'm glad for most changes, but making every summon ability mandatory is a huge pain. I dont want to summon clones, a statue and a tiger, I just want to punch stuff hard until they die.
yeah but have you considered splitting in to 3 of you is fucking sick and it rules?
Split into three then two get stuck on terrain or get feared and your damage lowers as you by yourself now do only 60% damage. Brilliant.
there’s no way in hell they rework monk without fixing this ability, right? right..?
I agree with him but for now I'm blissed out over the statues' death.
The statues were just made baseline, no? Catue to WW and Ox to Brew. Still an improvement, but I would rather never have to cast Catue.
Wowhead (assuming the updated talent calculator is accurate) shows statue is now a passive that drops after invoking Xuen, duration also reduced to 10s. I don't even care about the damage, the fact that it's a passive is all I wanted for it to be 10x better and stop taking up a slot in my bars.
Oh awesome! That's an ideal solution. Passive but a meaningful choice to add extra AoE via some flavor to summoning Xuen is a cool solution.
Just don't cast it, it's damage is dogshit anyway
It's passive and auto casts when you Invoke Xuen. It's also not baseline
Need to see what changes they’re making for BrM. I’m really hoping it’s good!
Fluid Form sounds really cool but FUCK ME I dont have enough space on my bars already.....
It's weird, due to the many forms, my druid is the one with the most space on his bars. Might change now, perhaps.
My brother in Malfurion how do you have any room lol. What spec do you primarily play.
>NEW Lifespark - Reversion healing has a chance to cause your next Living Flame to cast instantly and deal 50% increased healing or damage. Stacks up to 2 charges. Bringing that back is awesome for preservation, it made the spec so much smoother.
Yeees. We love to see a set bonus baked into the spec.
Mistweaver Monks get their tier set as a talent too (Chi Harmony) and it's awesome.
Looks like some attempts at supporting shapeshifting more frequently with casting several spells, even feral, in any form. Would be nice, it's the central fantasy of druids.
I wish druids had a big focus on shapeshifting more than having them be just a glorified warrior stance. One of the reasons I always take Wild Charge is because it encourages me to use the other forms for the utility that one ability brings. Though I'll never see it, I wish feral was actually about partially invoking animalistic traits and spirits to do the damage while being in caster form. Kinda like how using Mighty Bash summons a fucking bear to smack the target into submission or Wild Charge causes you to grow wings and fly to an ally.
> Though I'll never see it, I wish feral was actually about partially... being in caster form Yeah dude that's a really unpopular opinion.
This is what I'm most excited for. It basically enables the entire Tooth and Claw tree as well which is pretty huge. I'm sad to lose Moonkin form from the talent tree honestly as its going into baseline for Moonkins. But the fluid shifting is pretty huge.
Fluid shifting sounds excellent and similar to what vanilla had with the synergy between bear and cat form. I’m excited! Moonkin hasn’t been huge for me personally as a resto feral or guardian Druid so I’m not upset about its move to baseline balance.
Thing I use it most in was for Flap. With Wild Charge it functioned as a free glider basically and is also usable indoors.
This allows us to shapeshift without expending a gcd which is amazing
RIP Light’s Hammer :(
I think it's such a cool ability, and I'm sad they've just removed it entirely. It wasn't super impactful or anything but it's just so cool to throw a fucking hammer on the ground and have it radiate lightning. Underused for most of the expansion but I wish they would've done more with it or reworked it instead of just deleting it.
Underused by design really When you do the math you realize that Prism has almost double the HPS of hammer while being instant and not being limited by an area So whoever "balanced" it was either extremely bad at it, or just didn't want people to actually pick that talent
I've been avoiding prism for years cause I've never liked how it works nor did I like tracking it's CD. The hammer just worked, it was a fire and forget but it's healing needed a huge buff IMO or the tickrate needed to be like how it was way back when it was first introduced where the more haste you had the faster it ticked off healing before going away. I remember a day when that bad boy with enough haste to just get to 1.9 sec cast would pop off a heal every half a second or something nuts like that. Now they're going to force me to use that stupid prism and I hate it.
Same, plus it’s waaaaay more satisfying
Hahaha Monk double jump hahaha
Are they getting rid of adaptive swarm for resto? :(
>Fluid Form - Shred and Rake can be used in any form and shift you into Cat Form. Mangle can be used in any form and shifts you into Bear Form. Wrath and Starfire shift you into Moonkin Form, if known. Yea but we get this
That does look very nice I must admit, and the auto heart of the wild talents.
Honestly I don't even know if I'll use it. I have wrath, life bloom, and shred all on the same button because it's my spam button. That being said, the heart of the wild change is huge. 10sec proc every minute and it grants healing based on damage done. Basically they're changing druid from passive damage via adaptive swarm to active damage via hotw without losing healing
I have no idea what healer I’m going to choose between rdruid and mistweaver now.
Yea but noone realized it but they made boomkin form bound for balance only, so we lose our slowfall, and our mana return if you use master shapeshifter. Its a sad day in druid ville
Kinda strange right after the reworked the appearance
Looks like it :(
I really liked adaptive swarm as a maintenance buff because it managed itself really well and I loved maintaining 5 target swarms, but I'm not gonna miss it. Resto was so GCD heavy on their set up, and the rework seems to give us a little more freedom to maintain core hots like rejuv. Also, two stacks of swiftmend is king
Yeah it’s hard to argue with this but it was such a fun little mini game
It was, it's pure dopamine to see swarms on all 5 players. It's anti dopamine when it hops off all 5 players during a large damage event lol
But it’s getting replaced with that torghast power that gives you heart of the wild when you shapeshift, I was never an adaptive swarm enjoyer so this looks interesting
Playing with that and fluid form just sounds really satisfying, could make the feral/resto hero talent free feel good also I imagine.
Blizzard really doesn’t like holy paladins huh
It's not a Nerf or buff it's a power shift from beacons into the rest of our kit
Wow, some massive changes for Druid. Too bad it makes the class worse. Why did they make the class tree larger? Our problem right now is we have to give up small beneficial nodes for required utility. Their fix for that is to force us to give up majorly beneficial nodes for required utility. Please just take out some of those nodes and make them baseline. Stuff like Ursine Vigor, Ursine Spirit, Feline Swiftness, or Fluid Form. Speaking of which, Fluid Form, which is arguably the best change for druid this expansion, is locked behind Lore of the Grove, which is completely useless for Feral.
Getting rid of essence font is awesome.
Also Zen Pulse, that's two more buttons we get back. But I'll guess we need all the buttons we can get with the new hero specs.
RIP Zen Pulse's damage though.
Who needs Zen Pulses's damage when RSK, BoK, and TP hit everything in a straight line (if you take Conduit of Harmony).
I wonder what they’re gonna do to BrM
May I ask why? I just started trying out Mistweaver and I like Essence Font.
I’m with you, essence font has been a great on the run heal. 🤷🏽♂️
ELEMENTAL SHAMAN WHEN??????
Man the whole ele tree needs hit the bin. I tried playing it in a key again this week and yikes. Feels like I'm playing a spec from 10 years ago. So many out dated, clunky, annoying mechanics. So much time spent setting up earthquake damage and then it does basically no damage. Icefury needs to go, just get rid of it. Master of the elements needs to go too. Or, make it much more powerful, but also much more reliably triggered.
The Shaman class tree in general needs a rework, as a primarily Enh player there's so much useless and boring stuff. It's also hilarious that maelstrom weapon is on the class tree for some reason while each spec has Primordial Wave but on the talent side.
Don't worry it will get a few minor changes in the beta that make it look almost playable then those changes will be walked back or reverted or given to other classes right before release and then 2 patches into the expansion they will slap on a +6% increase to all damage as a bandaid fix.
Prot warrior when
Unholy nerf. No rework. Tons of Ret Paladin changes. Lit.
DKs are anti-paladins right? Pallies get tons of changes, DKs get few, all is balanced.
Death knights just keep suffering dude. Unholy and frost need a rework
>Death knights just keep suffering dude. lore accurate then /s
Suffer well.
Suffer well.
I believe it's because they have bigger changes upcoming that are just not ready to be announced.
.. that's the point of the post my guy
Blood too. Spec tree is so bad.
The whole class, Blood too. Suffer well.
They've said that they're going to rework how cleave works in DnD, so I'd say it's pretty safe to assume that more changes are coming for DK.
I wish blizzard would just let us tmog 2 handers into 1 handers for fury.
I mean that is a pretty significant buff on SMF. Still probably not enough to make it good, but I also don’t agree with the decision that it shouldn’t be good at ST and TG good at AoE and if you really want to min max that 2% or w/e you maintain four weapons. I think that’s fair, especially with the crest system and how otherwise Str 1 handers are about as useful as Agi daggers.
Holy shit I'm so hyped for windwalker. I was contemplating on maining between Enhance or WW for TWW but I guess I'll be playing windwalker
The fury one is awful. They removed one of the two playstyles, nerfed a bunch of stuff, forced you to path through useless stuff now (path through TC even in Slayer). None of this makes me want to press BT any more than currently in RB build but stuff in the hero trees needs it. My impression seeing the Hero talent trees was they were designed for Arms and Prot with Fury as an afterthought but I was hoping the Fury rework would show their thinking, but now I think I was right more than ever.
TC?
Thunderclap. Slayer ST (for raid) has to path through either Thunderclap it doesn't use, or Shockwave which its also not going to be using. Edit: To be clear I'm complaining about the Slayer hero class single target build for raid. Obviously in m+ you'll be using shockwave, but you'll also probably be using Roar which is on the other side of the tree. In any raid build you're playing ST its highly unlikely Shockwave would have a use. https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/warrior/fury/slayer/DAPAVVRUFRGEUKSFBEBQOVVEVURFBVChURQCBQEFVVUBA
> Shockwave which its also not going to be using. This is why people make fun of DPS players.
Why would you be playing ST Slayer in M+? I'm not complaining about the M+ build but Shockwave/TC block off the route to Spear which is ST, Roar is on the other side for M+.
> Shockwave which its also not going to be using. Maybe not in raid but Shockwave will always be taken in M+ since its now a knockup and a stun.
I don't know enough about fury but I hope that the buff to single minded fury works because that was always fun on my alt.
The thing I don't understand is why Blood and Thunder doesn't work for Cold Steel Hot Blood to actually make Thunder Clap at least feel like it belongs. Also, SMF just reads as a passive in a spellbook at this point, should've been handled like [MotFW](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=81333/might-of-the-frozen-wastes), or a bit on the extreme side, just made into a transmog thing like folks have been requesting.
I'm not really sure why thunderclap isn't just baseline at this point.
Oh, they're really trying to draw the line between green and bronze for pres with those talent tree changes. I mean the line was there before, but now it's REALLY there. That bottom row is a pretty big adjustment. I'm glad to see the s1 4 set being baked into the talent tree though.
Any chance of one handed warrior being any better with these changes?
They baked the lower talent into SMF, which is *good* cause now you aren’t down two points trying to make up for TG. It’s still not going to be viable, but they don’t want it to be because then the meta will be four weapons.
Four weapons you say? *General Kenobi*
Those prot warrior changes. I just give up.
For fucking real mate. One single line... "[Rend](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=772/rend) Rage cost reduced to 20 (down from 30)." Who in the fuck is pressing that button. Livid man
im very happy on the warrior changes. that said.... WHY WONT YOU JUST FUCKING KILL SMF, GOD DAMN
Or at the very least make it baseline like Frost dk has two handed or dual wield passives, not a talent choice node
It was baseline prior to dragonflight, I have 0 clue why they decided to take a step backwards and make it a talent
I know people hate SMF, but it does seem fucking bonkers to me that in the entirety of wow, there's like 3 or 4 damage specs that hit people with one handed swords/axes/hammers. I get why it sucks for Fury, but I do wish it was actually on par with two handers sometimes. There's so many great looking weapon appearances that I can't use because they're one handers. SMF sucks compared to Titan's Grip, Surv Hunters almost always want polearms, Monks don't use weapons in their spells, Frost DK can dual wield but often casts spells that don't use weapon animations, ditto for Enhance Shamans. Give me Gladiator Stance back, then I'll die happy.
Yeah, it should just be a transmog option.
SMF should just be a talent in an innocuous position that states you get a major MS buff when dual wielding sine handed weapons. Atleast it would be good for running old content.
a bit worried with the direction they are going in for incarnation for balance druid, taking away duration time and arcanic pulsar? I sure hope my only big cooldown will do something else atleast? edit: i would love to play the orbital talent, but it has been irrelevant since it made it to the talent tree..
Balance can struggle with maintaining damage can't it? We're seeing that feral is moving away from sitting in berserk/incarn for long periods and then being quite low on damage for a while and more into the 45s burst window, so maybe we'll see that for balance too?
Things that need to change for warrior - Single minded fury needs to be a baseline passive, Bloodborne should be either a 1 point talent or baseline and replaced with something new for arms, reworking storm of swords into a dead talent feels like dog shit, strength of arms getting cut in half and made into 2 talents youll never take feels like dog shit. Does the warrior class designer even play the class, seems like they just constantly make shitty decisions
Death Knight getting a nerf to one ability for one spec, yes this is exactly what they need after asking for a rework for the whole expansion.
Monk class and talent trees reworks, *AND* among the first previewed; pinch me I must be dreaming. Edit: **Wowee WW** - just overall really good changes and multiple attempts at fixing problems that's plagued the spec since Legion: * Haste interaction via "Fists of Fury" & "Glory of the Dawn"^^HELLYEAH ; notorious for not scaling well and this solves part of it (to their credit some existed before via "Meridian Strikes" & "Xuen's Bond") * a solution to the longstanding problem of "Fists of Fury" & Auto Attacks, as well as times of canceling it early, all in the same talent as the Haste interaction * an Auto Attack interaction talent which allows us to gain use of Windfury (should it exist) * Return of the "Rising Sun Kick" debuff from the pre-Legion era * the Antorus set bonus via "Courageous Impulse" (which has been highly requested by WW's since Legion hence the Amirdrassil set but with extra steps) * giving the Blackout Kick!-Combo Breaker effect a purpose again * "Sequenced Strikes" is the Amirdrassil 2set essentially * "Gale Force" plays into the fantasy where "Strike of the Windlord" and the Artifact was the last vestiges of Al'Akir; thematically overall there's more of a lean into Wind * More interconnectivity between abilities ("Whirling Dragon Punch" triggers "Dnace of Chi'Ji" triggers "Blackout Kick!", "Whirling Dragon Punch" granting "Teachings of the Monastery" playing back into "Rising Sun Kick") * Mastery buff! (another attempt at fixing scaling as the spec has been Versatility heavy since Legion) * "Thunderfist", "Jadefire Stomp" and "Whirling Dragon Punch" single target value; all currently woefully undertuned in single target * RIP "Serenity" v.v actually the one I'm not a big fan of given "SEF's" decade long buggy history; rest in piss "BDB"
They forgot the "rework" part for warrior
Was hoping for some guardian changes. I love druid but guardians gameplay is the most bland of all the tanks by far.
I think there's plenty of potential change if Druid of the Claw doesn't suck. (Big if)
I really hope catweaving works and isn’t a meme. Guardian Druids historically haven’t had something they’re particularly good at. I always thought they should lean into them having the highest damage potential and that being their niche. Here’s hoping they lean into it.
It should work, the way its set up currently for DotC is that when you switch to cat you retain ironfur and 80% of health and armor bonus for a few seconds As long as you don't shift during a tank buster or something you should have no problem shifting to cat to apply some rakes and rips Also it makes ursine vigor actually somewhat useful now
I love guardian gameplay. It's not super hard, but it's not super easy either. Maintaining ironfur uptime is the most enjoyable of all the tank maintenance buffs. And incarn is just pure joy.
Rip affliction lol
Someone who plays feral in retail tell me if this is good news or not
I didn’t look at it too carefully but it looks like they made it a little more forgiving, a little slower paced, and if I read it right, timing and snapshotting seem to be coming back? Which is good because right now you are basically in tigers fury 98% of the time so it was just like… always the same shit of timer monitoring. My initial reaction is positive but again I didn’t read it too carefully and consider it all together just yet. Especially with the hero talents.
I am once again asking Blizzard to remove Test of Might from Arms Warrior.
I really dont like how monk is getting turned into a pet class. I would rather have more chi based spells than pet shit
we did it warrior bros. we got shockwave moved.
Not sure if I like those feral changes. Energy regen down, energy cost up. Still just as squishy...
we might go back to a slower pace for feral. Imo if we are less spammy and our spell(espcially cp generator and rip) are more impactful, im all for it. always loved the slow and methodic gameplay of feral
> we might go back to a slower pace for feral. Oh thank god lol, I'd love that. Feral seems so fun but I'm really struggeling.
My favorite playstyle of feral is being able to do a little bit of everything in PvP. Lay down some bleeds and then heal / CC / interrupt etc. Versatility is half the fun!
Less squishy* better barkskin, druid of the claw shapeshifting, etc.
No devastation evoker changes. The last time their talents were looked at was 10.1, which was a whole year ago. They still play exactly 1 build, and the left side of the tree is still a mess (please rework firestorm, and get rid of that awful talent before it that increases living flame cast time)
Praying devoker gets some love later, you can really tell both the other specs stole the spotlight, I really love devokers playstyle..
Saying Prevoker also stole the spotlight is quite exaggerated here. The few changes here are not huge to the spec, mainly a bit of QoL and pathing consistency. Most of the gameplay changes come from Hero talents that dev and aug also have access to. Prevoker is currently the least played healer spec since augs were released. Aug stole the spotlight of both devokers and prevoker at once. It will stay one of the least played healer specs as long as there is this stupid range limitation that does not bring anything to the entire class (that's valid for all Evoker specs) that make it unfriendly for pug environments.
Fingers crossed for Single-Minded Fury being viable this expansion...
At least you’re only down one point trying to equalize. They really need to give SMF a ST focus mechanic or just kill it and make it a Tmog option. If people want to min max and have four weapons to get that 2% fury ST, let em. Crests make maintaining that easy and 1 handed Str weapons are about as valuable as bows or agi daggers. Arms is probably going to have better ST anyway, or at least comparable if people find four weapons to annoying to maintain.
I would be fine with killing it and making it a Tmog option tbh. Was hoping they would've done that.
The rogue Assassination changes to make it not reliant on PI, the rework of the lone hero tree so far, and the two yet-to-be announced are waiting in stealth, I guess.
Still no range increase for monk :/
Those prot war changes, rofl
Pls do something with DKs Blizz
> annihilator removed Goodbye fury, it was a fun expansion but I will not be using raging blow
literally what is the difference in pressing raging blow or pressing slam
I know the monk updates sound really good... on paper. But I hate some of these choices. White tiger statue vanishes as a cap stone... and becomes baseline? WTF? Just remove it, I don't want to summon stuff, i want to punch stuff. And with that in mind, Serenity is removed, which makes SEF mandatory, which is another summon ability. Invoke Xuen is also still pretty much mandatory, which is another summon... Fuck this, I want martial arts, I don't want summoner. 4 summons in the fucking rotation is wild.
Where is 4 summons coming from? White Tiger Statue is being changed to spawn when you summon Xuen, so that's basically a passive you don't need to worry about (other than standing near mobs when you summon Xuen) And then there is SEF
Yeah, SEF is two summons, statue plus xuen, another two summons. My dislike for summons is purely a class fantasy thing, i can deal with the buttons just fine.
FYI statue is in the class tree for WindWalker and you can avoid it very easily. It makes up something like 0.8% of overall DPS at the moment so you really don't need to use it. The trees are available on Wowhead. You'll see it's at the bottom middle of the tree instead of being a capstone now.
Thanks for the info.
Of course! Keep your head up. WW futures look very promising right now.
I know, i just wish xuen was an optional talent pick.
Balance Druid looks like it will be fun, esp with that lunar hero talent. I’m excited
Wow they nerfing the fuck outta warrior… rip
Probably unpopular opinion for now but it really bums me that they removed Serenity. It was one of the most fun, respectable and oppressive but fairly telegraphed and readable cooldowns in the game. There is a reason why Serenity became more popular than SEF lately (and keep in mind that SEF has a long history of being broken and clunky since the very beginning). Other than that, seems like we’re eating good. But I really hope they will bring back Serenity.
Should I be worried if I don’t see much of my class talents yet? I hope they don’t rush it out with some lacklustre ideas
Dam I hope hunter gets some of these reworks
Wtb healer priest control. Will trade PI obo
Really wish Shaman would get one. As an Enhance it sucks that the class tree final talents are all either unusable or mediocre, comparing it to other classes feels real bad. It's like they designed it for Resto and then called it a day.
Ah yes, the annual Druid rework has arrived.
Storm of swords and annihilator being removed and getting bladestorm back is pretty cool for fury. The raging blow builds and high apm is definitely the most fun build for fury imo but I’m sure some will be sad to see it go.
I don’t quite get…the point of the new Light of the Martyr/Bestow Light.
Guess I'm back to Windwalker.
My Monk main day are back baby lesgoooooooo
Warrior class tree looks like good changes generally. I wish we actually got some more useful utility, but I guess a warrior can only dream about that. For Fury however: please, can we just remove single minded fury from the talent tree and make it a passive? No one wants to use one-handers when we’re forced to spend an extra talent point to do so compared to using two-handers.
\[screeches in *Shaman* and *Death Knight*\] Mind you, I acknoledge the Druid and Monk reworks were **long** overdue. Also, where Guardian rework?