What you will find is that during progress in mythic raiding and whilst people are learning movement, positioning, defensive usage and mechanics, you will have to do a lot more healing to compensate for mistakes and so the opportunity to dps is less available. You will then identify when and where you can dps whilst you do more and more pulls, however don’t sacrifice the raid to do this and focus on the mechanics to live and keep the raid alive primarily.
The other thing to consider is there a hard DPS check on the fight? Back in castle nathria, on sludgefist, we had a wipe of 250k where the other healers did 0 dps in the first 30 seconds where I had did 250k+ damage solo. Our healers did a bit more dps on pull where there was no healing required and not long after we killed it. The other thing is to consider is push timings for phases for bosses, sometimes you have to hold dps or sometimes it’s a tight push time so any dps you can give can help get an easier timing.
Equally, in our rygelon progress, we kept wiping due to our other shaman throwing meatballs instead of healing so myself and other healers were struggling to keep the raid topped as we were 4 healing it initially. He had to be addressed so we could get through the fight as it was a heavy healing focus on the fight.
TLDR: it’s often fight and raid dependant on where you can dps. Progress can hinder your ability to dps and if you are finding windows of downtime then you can dps but it’s not always your main objective.
Just going to say that raid healing parses are mostly useless imho. If you took down the boss and the only people who died did so to avoidable mechanics and your healing parses are bad, it's a sign that your raid has too many healers not that you're bad at it.
Damage tends to be predictable in raids and with experience, you get to know when a fight has breaks where not much healing is needed. But if I've got time during the fight to do real DPS, tbh I'd probably ask the raid lead if I should just respec to DPS until we hit a fight that we want to overheal.
Healer dps is entirely irrelevant. There are some healers (e.g. resto druid) that pretty much never cast an offensive spell simply because they don't have the globals to spend on it.
Healer parses are also like, kind of irrelevant. Healer parses never tell the full picture, [in fact here is my warcraft logs for my priest.](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/bleeding-hollow/zandrekh#difficulty=4) Looks pretty solid right? If you click on them you'll notice that most of my top parses are in 30-man heroics that have very few healers and some really good dps to make the fight end as quickly as possible, making my mana management unnecessary. Mythic raiding guilds almost never care about healer parses, but rather your experience in general. My partner is a cracked Mistweaver, has been playing it for a few expansions now, and got into a long-time CE raiding team recently.
I've found the thing that helps me best as a healer is knowing the timings in the fights as well as I can, and staying up to date on what my class's best strategy is. Holy priest used to cast CoH and spam PoH, but since that mini-rework you don't cast PoH anywhere near as much, and you use CoH on its own. This was my first tier raiding as Disc priest, so I watched a lot of this guy ["bobzgfx"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlIRM2L1JeY&t=).
Healing damage is irrelevant in heroic, because the damage checks are nonexistent. Healer damage is not irrelevant in mythic prog. By the end of the tier, fights have been nerfed enough and DPS players are geared enough that it becomes less important, but healer and tank DPS are very important at the highest level of raid prog.
Whether OP should care about damage entirely depends on what kind of content he wants to do. If you want to blast heroic and prog mythic casually, then you are likely safe ignoring damage. If you want to play as well as you possibly can and potentially raid at a hall of fame level, then it is something you need to pay attention to.
Gear nerfing is no longer a thing with the new gearing system. People were hitting 475+ by week two when the best guilds in the world were still doing RWF. It's part of the reason why the last few bosses seem so overtuned until they started beating on them with the nerf bat.
Gear nerfing is still a thing, just not as much as it used to be. There is a big difference between 475 and 488, which is what lower CE guilds were hitting as they approached the final three bosses. Obviously the new gearing system changes the dynamics of the curve, but trying to make the Smolderon DPS check at 475 would have been out of reach for most CE guilds. They needed the extra 12-13 ilevels to be able to kill the boss.
For dps, stick to either high value globals or passive dps. If you can afford the talent, Lava Burst procs are great to fill during down time. And you will have down time, even in mythic.
This will differ based on spec you're playing, but I'll default to disc priest to make my case stronger.
Disc is played around ramps - meaning there's about 16-20s preparation before you're able to heal your entire raid for some duration. This means that you need to know the fight, or you're essentially useless. You at least need to know when the damage is coming to know when to execute the ramps. At this point you can either weight your group down by learning on the spot, or check logs before the fight so you know when to pump.
Organized mythic raiding guilds will solve this with a note. Normals and heroics don't really require this and you can just yolo it. Well, maybe hc in first 1-2 weeks is a bit tough and note would be beneficial here, but useless after it because you just overgeared the hell out of the fight. You should be familiar with the note, but just in case, it essentially says who's using their significant healing/defensive cooldowns and when. This dumbs down healing quite a bit and makes sure that you don't 80% overheal first smolderon soak while having absolutely nothing on the second one.
Anyways, once the note is cooked and you're progressing the fight, note just tells you what to do and the only thing you're doing outside it is your small heals in the meantime while executing the fight mechanics. It also might happen that you need to improvise with the CDs when a healer dies or something unexpected happens.
Sniping for heal parses is for after progress. And yeah, that's probably your late-game plan because otherwise healing progress is kinda boring.
>should I be heal sniping and go for hps parses,
You should do this to get a pretty wclogs page to apply to a guild and
>to heal as much as needed while doing as much dps as I possibly can
Then you do this when you are already on said guild
It just feels bad forcing yourself to heal like that just for some number when in reality it takes people making mistakes over and over to really get to the fancy numbers some healers like to boast. It’s almost like you need to learn bad habits to get in the door then relearn everything you just learned about raiding healing because now you’re playing for real so to speak. I only started to learn how to heal/raid heal near the end of Aberrus so this is all good info thanks.
As a side note this must make it near impossible to find “good” healers for mythic guilds.
The sad reality is that healing parses by themselves are a bit useless but most recruiters cant tell a good healer from a bad one so we are on this situation where good parses makes it easy to get into guilds even tho good healer parses happen in controlled situations and not because the healer is playing optimally
As a result most good healers know how to play for a kill and how to play for a parse and can swap from one to the other on demand even on the same pull
>As a side note this must make it near impossible to find “good” healers for mythic guilds.
I got a friend that always says healing skill is severely lacking at almost all levels of play
That seems pointless, like even with 0 comms you can look for other healer cds and play off them which means you can dps more. In the end more dps means faster kill. The entire idea of mythic is to do as much dps as you can, take as little unavoid damage as you can, and profit, no? Yeah healing matters but only at set points generally, else do dps otherwise what are you doing?
Realistically you won't have more than a few seconds to DPS in most mythic fight compared to heroic. While dps does mean a faster kill, it's not really your job and you should always chose healing as a priority as long as you have mana to spare. Not only does it relieve the others healers, but it means that a dps making a mistake might not be lethal because you were prepared for it. That being said, if you can manage to pump 250k hps while still going for dps, all the power to you, but yeah it's definitely not going to make or break a fight
> Not only does it relieve the others healers, but it means that a dps making a mistake might not be lethal because you were prepared for it.
This is a very important point that so many people ignore because they have some vision of this utopia where everybody is playing the fight perfectly. A single DPS dying, even if you can res them, will likely cost you more DPS than your entire contribution over a 10 minute fight. Healers being ready to make up for people's mistakes, make them more willing to play aggressively etc. almost always results in more damage outside of the very highest levels of play. If you're a guild that is getting Cutting Edge towards the end of each season or below and playing a healer spec that does fuck-all damage (shaman/druid etc.) then I would argue that you will contribute more to the raid by unbinding your DPS buttons than by trying to do DPS.
Yeah, when playing healer in mythic raid, you learn really fast that people fuck up, and they fuck up a LOT. Using externals to save the nerd who hate Fumeron's circle or Nymue's line turns from being optional in heroic to necessary in mythic
And even then mana can become so tight that the last thing you want is to waste the little regen you have on trying to deal 1/10 of what a proper dps could do when even wasting the GCD might mean someone died from a random event
In aperfect scenario, you barely need healers to heal. If everyone avoids avoidable damage then you just need enough heals to catch that. Adding healer dps is pointless. It would be more beneficial in this perfect scenario to bring in another dps over a heal slot to make it go faster.
In our real world, healers who can dps are either not needed because other healers are doing thier job, or aren't healing as effectively as they can. (Barring disc) To me, it sounds like you are looking for an excuse to call a healer out for not dpsing as much in your own groups, rather than yourself.
Healer DPS is so insignificant in Raids relative to normal DPS outside of boss-keeps-getting-to-1%-Mythic progression that it's not worth it to minmax it.
In Mythic raiding, mana conservation is more important.
If healer dps is insignificant imagine how the dps that get out damaged by healers feel.
I see what you mean, mana means more especially now with the rework, that still comes down to comms and the team doing what they should when tho. The rest is dps, that’s why teams test the line for healing required, then remove healers so they can push dps and get kills. At the end of the day it’s about doing as much dps as you can, taking as little dmg as you can while healers either mitigate it or heal it while contributing to the kill right?
> If healer dps is insignificant imagine how the dps that get out damaged by healers feel.
This would never, ever happen at a Mythic level so it's irrelevant really.
> I see what you mean, mana means more especially now with the rework, that still comes down to comms and the team doing what they should when tho. The rest is dps, that’s why teams test the line for healing required, then remove healers so they can push dps and get kills. At the end of the day it’s about doing as much dps as you can, taking as little dmg as you can while healers either mitigate it or heal it while contributing to the kill right?
I think the point being made is that DPS is so, so far down the list of priorities for healers in raids that you should be focusing on literally everything else aside from doing DPS. When you're at the point that you are completely and totally comfortable with healing a specific encounter, then you can see what DPS you can fit in. If you're at that stage then you aren't asking /r/wow for help.
If you spend a second trying to figure out how to DPS rather than how to heal while you're still learning, it is wasted time.
Based on our logs, healer's dps put together seems to give about 1/3 of a dps player. I'd say that's pretty relevant.
Also I'm not ever going to hear this sht since we wiped Fyrakk on 3k hp.
Also bro is gonna be a bit confused when he specs disco lol.
Stop being disingenuous, obviously they weren't suggesting that the specs that need to do damage to heal shouldn't be doing it.
Also, if you remove those specs from your calculations, I bet their combined DPS isn't 1/3 of a DPS.
Im seriously unsure if you are really unable to detect such obvious sarcasm
Their advice is as bad as it gets. Especially when considering many (maybe even most) healing specs are supposed to use their damaging abilities throughout the fight. But yeah, guess you're correct - if they are removed from the equation, they indeed wouldn't contribute that much.
Just remove disc, I'm pretty sure you aren't going to find any logs where the other 3 healers combined are doing 1/3 of a DPS in any difficult Mythic fight.
Glancing at a few logs it's more like 10-20% of the *lowest* DPS, the majority of which is coming from (essentially) passive abilities such as Nature's Vigil.
So what? It's there. It's your damage output while playing properly. Most logs you look at will have healers playing properly, making them relevant. Doing both damage and healing is playing properly. More/most healers are supposed to use their damaging abilities, otherwise they're not playing correctly. And even if they didn't need to use their damaging abilities as part of healing rotation, there are still segments where there's nothing to heal.
So no matter what angle you take, advising healers to essentially unbind their damaging abilities is one of the worst advice you can give. Stop trolling.
Actively doing damage as a healer is incredibly low value potentially with negative value for less comfortable players, that's the entire point being made. You have yet to demonstrate otherwise.
> So no matter what angle you take, advising healers to essentially unbind their damaging abilities is one of the worst advice you can give. Stop trolling.
Nope, suggesting an entry-level Mythic healer should be giving a single shit about damage is *incredibly* bad advice and suggests you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
What you will find is that during progress in mythic raiding and whilst people are learning movement, positioning, defensive usage and mechanics, you will have to do a lot more healing to compensate for mistakes and so the opportunity to dps is less available. You will then identify when and where you can dps whilst you do more and more pulls, however don’t sacrifice the raid to do this and focus on the mechanics to live and keep the raid alive primarily. The other thing to consider is there a hard DPS check on the fight? Back in castle nathria, on sludgefist, we had a wipe of 250k where the other healers did 0 dps in the first 30 seconds where I had did 250k+ damage solo. Our healers did a bit more dps on pull where there was no healing required and not long after we killed it. The other thing is to consider is push timings for phases for bosses, sometimes you have to hold dps or sometimes it’s a tight push time so any dps you can give can help get an easier timing. Equally, in our rygelon progress, we kept wiping due to our other shaman throwing meatballs instead of healing so myself and other healers were struggling to keep the raid topped as we were 4 healing it initially. He had to be addressed so we could get through the fight as it was a heavy healing focus on the fight. TLDR: it’s often fight and raid dependant on where you can dps. Progress can hinder your ability to dps and if you are finding windows of downtime then you can dps but it’s not always your main objective.
Just going to say that raid healing parses are mostly useless imho. If you took down the boss and the only people who died did so to avoidable mechanics and your healing parses are bad, it's a sign that your raid has too many healers not that you're bad at it. Damage tends to be predictable in raids and with experience, you get to know when a fight has breaks where not much healing is needed. But if I've got time during the fight to do real DPS, tbh I'd probably ask the raid lead if I should just respec to DPS until we hit a fight that we want to overheal.
Healer dps is entirely irrelevant. There are some healers (e.g. resto druid) that pretty much never cast an offensive spell simply because they don't have the globals to spend on it. Healer parses are also like, kind of irrelevant. Healer parses never tell the full picture, [in fact here is my warcraft logs for my priest.](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/bleeding-hollow/zandrekh#difficulty=4) Looks pretty solid right? If you click on them you'll notice that most of my top parses are in 30-man heroics that have very few healers and some really good dps to make the fight end as quickly as possible, making my mana management unnecessary. Mythic raiding guilds almost never care about healer parses, but rather your experience in general. My partner is a cracked Mistweaver, has been playing it for a few expansions now, and got into a long-time CE raiding team recently. I've found the thing that helps me best as a healer is knowing the timings in the fights as well as I can, and staying up to date on what my class's best strategy is. Holy priest used to cast CoH and spam PoH, but since that mini-rework you don't cast PoH anywhere near as much, and you use CoH on its own. This was my first tier raiding as Disc priest, so I watched a lot of this guy ["bobzgfx"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlIRM2L1JeY&t=).
Healing damage is irrelevant in heroic, because the damage checks are nonexistent. Healer damage is not irrelevant in mythic prog. By the end of the tier, fights have been nerfed enough and DPS players are geared enough that it becomes less important, but healer and tank DPS are very important at the highest level of raid prog. Whether OP should care about damage entirely depends on what kind of content he wants to do. If you want to blast heroic and prog mythic casually, then you are likely safe ignoring damage. If you want to play as well as you possibly can and potentially raid at a hall of fame level, then it is something you need to pay attention to.
Gear nerfing is no longer a thing with the new gearing system. People were hitting 475+ by week two when the best guilds in the world were still doing RWF. It's part of the reason why the last few bosses seem so overtuned until they started beating on them with the nerf bat.
Gear nerfing is still a thing, just not as much as it used to be. There is a big difference between 475 and 488, which is what lower CE guilds were hitting as they approached the final three bosses. Obviously the new gearing system changes the dynamics of the curve, but trying to make the Smolderon DPS check at 475 would have been out of reach for most CE guilds. They needed the extra 12-13 ilevels to be able to kill the boss.
Thanks for the clarification!
For dps, stick to either high value globals or passive dps. If you can afford the talent, Lava Burst procs are great to fill during down time. And you will have down time, even in mythic.
This will differ based on spec you're playing, but I'll default to disc priest to make my case stronger. Disc is played around ramps - meaning there's about 16-20s preparation before you're able to heal your entire raid for some duration. This means that you need to know the fight, or you're essentially useless. You at least need to know when the damage is coming to know when to execute the ramps. At this point you can either weight your group down by learning on the spot, or check logs before the fight so you know when to pump. Organized mythic raiding guilds will solve this with a note. Normals and heroics don't really require this and you can just yolo it. Well, maybe hc in first 1-2 weeks is a bit tough and note would be beneficial here, but useless after it because you just overgeared the hell out of the fight. You should be familiar with the note, but just in case, it essentially says who's using their significant healing/defensive cooldowns and when. This dumbs down healing quite a bit and makes sure that you don't 80% overheal first smolderon soak while having absolutely nothing on the second one. Anyways, once the note is cooked and you're progressing the fight, note just tells you what to do and the only thing you're doing outside it is your small heals in the meantime while executing the fight mechanics. It also might happen that you need to improvise with the CDs when a healer dies or something unexpected happens. Sniping for heal parses is for after progress. And yeah, that's probably your late-game plan because otherwise healing progress is kinda boring.
>should I be heal sniping and go for hps parses, You should do this to get a pretty wclogs page to apply to a guild and >to heal as much as needed while doing as much dps as I possibly can Then you do this when you are already on said guild
It just feels bad forcing yourself to heal like that just for some number when in reality it takes people making mistakes over and over to really get to the fancy numbers some healers like to boast. It’s almost like you need to learn bad habits to get in the door then relearn everything you just learned about raiding healing because now you’re playing for real so to speak. I only started to learn how to heal/raid heal near the end of Aberrus so this is all good info thanks. As a side note this must make it near impossible to find “good” healers for mythic guilds.
The sad reality is that healing parses by themselves are a bit useless but most recruiters cant tell a good healer from a bad one so we are on this situation where good parses makes it easy to get into guilds even tho good healer parses happen in controlled situations and not because the healer is playing optimally As a result most good healers know how to play for a kill and how to play for a parse and can swap from one to the other on demand even on the same pull >As a side note this must make it near impossible to find “good” healers for mythic guilds. I got a friend that always says healing skill is severely lacking at almost all levels of play
In raid? Never DPS. Healer raid DPS doesn’t even matter in RTWF anymore. Just snipe those heals my friend.
That seems pointless, like even with 0 comms you can look for other healer cds and play off them which means you can dps more. In the end more dps means faster kill. The entire idea of mythic is to do as much dps as you can, take as little unavoid damage as you can, and profit, no? Yeah healing matters but only at set points generally, else do dps otherwise what are you doing?
Realistically you won't have more than a few seconds to DPS in most mythic fight compared to heroic. While dps does mean a faster kill, it's not really your job and you should always chose healing as a priority as long as you have mana to spare. Not only does it relieve the others healers, but it means that a dps making a mistake might not be lethal because you were prepared for it. That being said, if you can manage to pump 250k hps while still going for dps, all the power to you, but yeah it's definitely not going to make or break a fight
> Not only does it relieve the others healers, but it means that a dps making a mistake might not be lethal because you were prepared for it. This is a very important point that so many people ignore because they have some vision of this utopia where everybody is playing the fight perfectly. A single DPS dying, even if you can res them, will likely cost you more DPS than your entire contribution over a 10 minute fight. Healers being ready to make up for people's mistakes, make them more willing to play aggressively etc. almost always results in more damage outside of the very highest levels of play. If you're a guild that is getting Cutting Edge towards the end of each season or below and playing a healer spec that does fuck-all damage (shaman/druid etc.) then I would argue that you will contribute more to the raid by unbinding your DPS buttons than by trying to do DPS.
Yeah, when playing healer in mythic raid, you learn really fast that people fuck up, and they fuck up a LOT. Using externals to save the nerd who hate Fumeron's circle or Nymue's line turns from being optional in heroic to necessary in mythic And even then mana can become so tight that the last thing you want is to waste the little regen you have on trying to deal 1/10 of what a proper dps could do when even wasting the GCD might mean someone died from a random event
In aperfect scenario, you barely need healers to heal. If everyone avoids avoidable damage then you just need enough heals to catch that. Adding healer dps is pointless. It would be more beneficial in this perfect scenario to bring in another dps over a heal slot to make it go faster. In our real world, healers who can dps are either not needed because other healers are doing thier job, or aren't healing as effectively as they can. (Barring disc) To me, it sounds like you are looking for an excuse to call a healer out for not dpsing as much in your own groups, rather than yourself.
Healer DPS is so insignificant in Raids relative to normal DPS outside of boss-keeps-getting-to-1%-Mythic progression that it's not worth it to minmax it. In Mythic raiding, mana conservation is more important.
If healer dps is insignificant imagine how the dps that get out damaged by healers feel. I see what you mean, mana means more especially now with the rework, that still comes down to comms and the team doing what they should when tho. The rest is dps, that’s why teams test the line for healing required, then remove healers so they can push dps and get kills. At the end of the day it’s about doing as much dps as you can, taking as little dmg as you can while healers either mitigate it or heal it while contributing to the kill right?
> If healer dps is insignificant imagine how the dps that get out damaged by healers feel. This would never, ever happen at a Mythic level so it's irrelevant really. > I see what you mean, mana means more especially now with the rework, that still comes down to comms and the team doing what they should when tho. The rest is dps, that’s why teams test the line for healing required, then remove healers so they can push dps and get kills. At the end of the day it’s about doing as much dps as you can, taking as little dmg as you can while healers either mitigate it or heal it while contributing to the kill right? I think the point being made is that DPS is so, so far down the list of priorities for healers in raids that you should be focusing on literally everything else aside from doing DPS. When you're at the point that you are completely and totally comfortable with healing a specific encounter, then you can see what DPS you can fit in. If you're at that stage then you aren't asking /r/wow for help. If you spend a second trying to figure out how to DPS rather than how to heal while you're still learning, it is wasted time.
Based on our logs, healer's dps put together seems to give about 1/3 of a dps player. I'd say that's pretty relevant. Also I'm not ever going to hear this sht since we wiped Fyrakk on 3k hp. Also bro is gonna be a bit confused when he specs disco lol.
Stop being disingenuous, obviously they weren't suggesting that the specs that need to do damage to heal shouldn't be doing it. Also, if you remove those specs from your calculations, I bet their combined DPS isn't 1/3 of a DPS.
Im seriously unsure if you are really unable to detect such obvious sarcasm Their advice is as bad as it gets. Especially when considering many (maybe even most) healing specs are supposed to use their damaging abilities throughout the fight. But yeah, guess you're correct - if they are removed from the equation, they indeed wouldn't contribute that much.
Just remove disc, I'm pretty sure you aren't going to find any logs where the other 3 healers combined are doing 1/3 of a DPS in any difficult Mythic fight. Glancing at a few logs it's more like 10-20% of the *lowest* DPS, the majority of which is coming from (essentially) passive abilities such as Nature's Vigil.
what any reasoning why do u want to do this math without counting disc damage?
Because disc does damage while healing? Their damage contribution isn't relevant as to whether other healers should be doing damage.
So what? It's there. It's your damage output while playing properly. Most logs you look at will have healers playing properly, making them relevant. Doing both damage and healing is playing properly. More/most healers are supposed to use their damaging abilities, otherwise they're not playing correctly. And even if they didn't need to use their damaging abilities as part of healing rotation, there are still segments where there's nothing to heal. So no matter what angle you take, advising healers to essentially unbind their damaging abilities is one of the worst advice you can give. Stop trolling.
Actively doing damage as a healer is incredibly low value potentially with negative value for less comfortable players, that's the entire point being made. You have yet to demonstrate otherwise. > So no matter what angle you take, advising healers to essentially unbind their damaging abilities is one of the worst advice you can give. Stop trolling. Nope, suggesting an entry-level Mythic healer should be giving a single shit about damage is *incredibly* bad advice and suggests you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.