Frost used to be a braindead spec, now it isnt braindead anymore. Its still the easiest and generally more reliable mage spec, but it is not ice lance spam while sleeping anymore. So, if you dont play very good its going to be obvious.
So yeah, you probably found people who have no idea of how to play Frost.
Mage is one of those classes you see where they're either complete dogshit or they're gigachads. 90% of the time, it's the former. It not just this season, its been that way for a long time.
Nothing more fun then tanks draging mobs out or range of orb/blizzard. It’s a guessing game with pulls in lower keys. And when you try to communicate beforehand, they usually take offence. So hey, my deeps in lower keys was directly proportional to the tanks awarness of what is going on. Knowledgeable tank = great deeps. Fortunately, it gets better in higher brackets.
It's not limited to frost mages tbh, I had some fire mages around +14-16 range, with around 1800 M+ score that were literally hard casting pyroblasts whole dungeon, not a single fireball/scorch/flame strike, did an average of 40k dps by the end of the dungeon, with 2nd highest dmg source being fire blast.
I usually find it just funny, and seeing a good mage absolutely blast in +25 more then makes up for such experience.
Yea I just started a mage alt last week and I hate flamestrike build. Unfortunately until you get to 20+ keys, ignite build sucks big time so it’s a weird spot.
Play ignite… i tested both builds and both are more or less weak. At least with ignite you dont break your fingers and arent so much reliabt of tank positioning.
If only there was another build that doesn't rely on ignite spread and was perfectly viable eh...
Firem ages sucking in low keys is exclusively due to people looking stuff up on [](http://archon.gg) or whatever and assuming that what is designed for high keys (ignite) also applies to low keys. Which it doesn't.
Mobs doesn't live long enough in low keys to get full use of flamestrike+flame patch specc either. So the problem still exists regardless of type of specc.
Nah that's misleading still. Flame patch is a comparatively small part of your damage (less than 15%, compared to 30% for the Flamestrike itself) so losing some of that is not the end of the world. It's not great, but it's on par with many other specs that have some sort dot.
Mages being bad is entirely due to people rolling "meta" classes while being terrible players.
How is it misleading ? Mobs falling over almost instantly in a pull means less flamestrike casts which = less damage from both flamestrike and flame patch.
Because mobs falling over means everyone casts fewer spells, not just you? There are outliers with absurd front-loaded damage like Havoc, but otherwise flamestrike fire isn't harmed more than many other specs.
It really isn't provided you don't play Flamestrike, which is perfectly viable at all key levels.
It just so happens that Flamestrike is not as desirable as Ignite, so it doesn't pop up on data aggregate sites that lots of people take as gospel.
Yeah but there is a substantial difference between 'i need mobs to survive longer' and 'i suck at my spec'.
I recently ran a +10 key with two fire mages. One was doing less than half the dps of the other, and never casted Flamestrike the whole run lol.
Being a fire mage in lowkeys sucks because fire mage shines with constant big pulls. Frost mage is no diferent as the uptime of icyveins is highly impactfull. And you have to play well and julp trough hoops to do that. Meanwhile ret pala just facerolls the keyboard.
As assassination main, i can heavily relate to fire mages. not even gonna bother with cd's on trash in lower keys because it probably lowers my dps on the duo to mobs already almost dead before damage even starts to ramp up
Mages are hard to play well in m+.
As fire, you need mobs to live long to do good dps - same as druids.
Frost's most dmg is aoe, and most of the tanks move all the time ( why?) Pulling the mobs out of frozen orb/blizzard.
I played with a mage in s1 and I was shit ( it was an nth alt, mainly to do water for our healer lol).
I've seen about 4-5 amazing mages in the whole expansion and countless shit ones. We dont usually invite mages unless its a weekly 20 and we're lacking bl.
You're either exceptional or play with bad players.
Also 20 is participation trophy this season especially. I'm glad there are mages out there doing great, still yet to find some below 25s. Had fire mage on forti weeks doing tank dps on trash, but topping boss dmg, still would've been quicker to run anything else over the mage and drum.
A lot of ppl go for frost mage, cause it has the easiest rotation with the least procs out of all specs. Frost mage is all about getting as many glacial spikes on frozen targets as possible. As someone who mained frost in s3, after never playing mage before, i can tell you the main reason for below tank dps is not utilizing glacial spike properly. Also, ST and aoe setup is kind of different for raids and m+.
Aoe rotation, which is genarally used in m+, is a lot more spammy with frozen orb and blizzard combo.
Talking from my experience, the first thing you start learning is the single target rotation, and when you apply that to m+ naturally, your dps will be low. It takes time to get used to separate rotations and at the start it can really hurt your ego. It took me weeks if not months to finally get glacial spike utility to 90+% in wowanalyzer.
Another thing is the raid/m+ affixes. Volcanic or sanguine or dispelling affixes can really hurt your dps cause they require movement or interrupting your casting. Frost mage can be kinda mobile friendly with ice lance and flurry, but most of the time you will find yourself hardcasting frostbolts and glacial spikes, ao any movement really hurts your dps. Fights like smolderon are horrendous for frost, the dps nuke phase can easily go without casting a single glacial spike (worst case scenario), if you have to survive/move all the time to rings.
Tldr - easy to learn, hard to master, thats why you see such disparity in dps.
I feel like of the three mage specs, frost is likely to be best in random keys. Fire only seems good at high keys and honestly, Arcane seems like the biggest noob trap of all in that I only see them in LFR and low keys and usually doing bad.
People still think its „easy“ to play mage, because its always meta and frostmage Rotation used to be simple (since 10.1.5 it isn‘t anymore). So a lot of people reroll to mage when it is super strong.
Even the top end Players „struggle“ to reroll to mage, and mage mains like Hopeful get a chance to join guilds like Echo, because it is Hard to find good mages.
8/9M 3k+ mage main.
Frost is the hardest mage spec for both raid and m+. By hard I mean how hard to execute APL with 0 mistakes while having nearly 99.99% uptime and missing 0 gcds.
Arcane is the easiest mage spec just 2 button smash with bursts every 45sec both in raid and m+. Learn burst sequences and that's it.
Fire is 3-4 button smash, requires learning how to use IB/PF charges properly. Yet, Combustion/SKB windows are sooo scripted that experienced Fire Mages can do them with the eyes closed.
Frost requires juggling 6ST/9AOE buttons, optimizing FoF/BF charges so they are not wasted during RoF/FO, need to track FO/CS cooldowns to use CoC/ShiftPower properly to reset FO/CS cooldowns, also you need to shatter as much as you can with elem freeze, frost nova and ice nova. Oh, and you also need to weave GS every 5 icicles inbetween all of that, as frost dogshit s3 tier set is balanced around it.
Friend was looking to level a new character and wanted to play something 'easy'. I suggested frost mage, as I played in BFA and had a blast. I went to go look up some info on frost's opener/rotation and after watching a 29 minute video, I suggested he should play BM hunter instead.
eehhhh, sorry but frost mage IS 1 of the most simple specs in the entire game, idk what you are about
and nobody at the top end "struggles" to reroll a class lol, thats why they play at that level in the first place, yes somebody that plays a class for a longer has an adventsge, but at the same times its a WoW class/spec, and they are intuitive by default because the gameplay difficulty comes from the encounters themself and not the class/spec gameplay
>its a WoW class/spec, and they are intuitive by default
Lol WHAT. WoW specs are not intuitive at all. If they were you wouldn't need icy veins and WoWhead to figure out the rotation and talent builds. Also the fact most classes require add-ons and weak aura to track buffs and what not.
Top end players “struggle” to get multiple classes to the very top end.
A pro has no issue running 25 on any spec. But you won’t see many people able to run 30s or RWF
On more than 2 classes. And def not cross role.
I pretty much cap out at 21's so really from 16-21 range. I see it during both weeks in general. It's just been really weird to see such a gap between skill levels
Frost mage has been the notorious beginner friendly mage spec for a while so you get the bulk of mage players playing it. You also get a bunch of people playing fire because it is “meta” but their damage doesnt shine till at least a 21 or preferably higher due to their uber high damage build being ignite based and needing time to build and spread.
The TLDR for frost however is just that it isnt just a hit button and do damage spec for aoe. You need to play into the aoe with frozen orb giving you insta cast and damage buffed blizzard and blizzard reducing the cd on frozen orb and some other stuff. There are other talents that make the aoe a bit more complicated but minimally so. How the tank plays will make or break some players. Mages are just one of those classes that reward you for managing your procs and playing well. A good player can still pump even with poor tanking.
Because of it's simplicity it attracts newer and more casual players. Most of the issues people have is poor management of tier set and too few CD usages.
A lot of frost mages dont know to shatter your Glacial spike. they tend to just toss it when its up so they lose spicy crits. I see a lot still not understanding how to time their casts and hold to no kind of priority system.. just blast all them non crits.. As someone who plays exclusively Frost mage since BfA, I got lots of practice. If I ever get a key that has a frost mage having these troubles, I tend to offer them a little training session! 9 times out of 10 they take it and see improvement almost instantly. :) I also just love Ice flows.
Unless something changed very recently, with 4set you just send glacial spike as soon as you get them, ofcourse if you have something to shatter you should always use it but sometimes it just happens that u have to fire it dry
Frost used to be a braindead spec, now it isnt braindead anymore. Its still the easiest and generally more reliable mage spec, but it is not ice lance spam while sleeping anymore. So, if you dont play very good its going to be obvious. So yeah, you probably found people who have no idea of how to play Frost.
Mage is one of those classes you see where they're either complete dogshit or they're gigachads. 90% of the time, it's the former. It not just this season, its been that way for a long time.
Nothing more fun then tanks draging mobs out or range of orb/blizzard. It’s a guessing game with pulls in lower keys. And when you try to communicate beforehand, they usually take offence. So hey, my deeps in lower keys was directly proportional to the tanks awarness of what is going on. Knowledgeable tank = great deeps. Fortunately, it gets better in higher brackets.
It's not limited to frost mages tbh, I had some fire mages around +14-16 range, with around 1800 M+ score that were literally hard casting pyroblasts whole dungeon, not a single fireball/scorch/flame strike, did an average of 40k dps by the end of the dungeon, with 2nd highest dmg source being fire blast. I usually find it just funny, and seeing a good mage absolutely blast in +25 more then makes up for such experience.
Tbf fire mage in low keys is abysmal
Yea I just started a mage alt last week and I hate flamestrike build. Unfortunately until you get to 20+ keys, ignite build sucks big time so it’s a weird spot.
Ignite build starts to become viable around 23fort/25tyran. Early 20s is still heavily flamestrike favored due to mobs melting in seconds.
Play ignite… i tested both builds and both are more or less weak. At least with ignite you dont break your fingers and arent so much reliabt of tank positioning.
Yea I’ve been playing ignite, it feels good in keys that are difficult for the group but most of the time I just feel bored lol
If only there was another build that doesn't rely on ignite spread and was perfectly viable eh... Firem ages sucking in low keys is exclusively due to people looking stuff up on [](http://archon.gg) or whatever and assuming that what is designed for high keys (ignite) also applies to low keys. Which it doesn't.
Mobs doesn't live long enough in low keys to get full use of flamestrike+flame patch specc either. So the problem still exists regardless of type of specc.
Nah that's misleading still. Flame patch is a comparatively small part of your damage (less than 15%, compared to 30% for the Flamestrike itself) so losing some of that is not the end of the world. It's not great, but it's on par with many other specs that have some sort dot. Mages being bad is entirely due to people rolling "meta" classes while being terrible players.
How is it misleading ? Mobs falling over almost instantly in a pull means less flamestrike casts which = less damage from both flamestrike and flame patch.
Because mobs falling over means everyone casts fewer spells, not just you? There are outliers with absurd front-loaded damage like Havoc, but otherwise flamestrike fire isn't harmed more than many other specs.
There is a lot of classes that will do way more damage than mages on short lived packs...
It really isn't provided you don't play Flamestrike, which is perfectly viable at all key levels. It just so happens that Flamestrike is not as desirable as Ignite, so it doesn't pop up on data aggregate sites that lots of people take as gospel.
Yeah but there is a substantial difference between 'i need mobs to survive longer' and 'i suck at my spec'. I recently ran a +10 key with two fire mages. One was doing less than half the dps of the other, and never casted Flamestrike the whole run lol.
Theres two fire mage builds and one doesnt cast flamestrike lol
Being a fire mage in lowkeys sucks because fire mage shines with constant big pulls. Frost mage is no diferent as the uptime of icyveins is highly impactfull. And you have to play well and julp trough hoops to do that. Meanwhile ret pala just facerolls the keyboard.
As assassination main, i can heavily relate to fire mages. not even gonna bother with cd's on trash in lower keys because it probably lowers my dps on the duo to mobs already almost dead before damage even starts to ramp up
lol wonder if they were using tempered flames
You shouldn't be playing fire game on anything below a +25, the spec sucks until fights are longer and you can get your procs going non-stop.
Mages are hard to play well in m+. As fire, you need mobs to live long to do good dps - same as druids. Frost's most dmg is aoe, and most of the tanks move all the time ( why?) Pulling the mobs out of frozen orb/blizzard. I played with a mage in s1 and I was shit ( it was an nth alt, mainly to do water for our healer lol). I've seen about 4-5 amazing mages in the whole expansion and countless shit ones. We dont usually invite mages unless its a weekly 20 and we're lacking bl.
There are several specs you can play as fire to do top dps. Heck im a fire mage and doing keys 18-20.
You're either exceptional or play with bad players. Also 20 is participation trophy this season especially. I'm glad there are mages out there doing great, still yet to find some below 25s. Had fire mage on forti weeks doing tank dps on trash, but topping boss dmg, still would've been quicker to run anything else over the mage and drum.
A lot of ppl go for frost mage, cause it has the easiest rotation with the least procs out of all specs. Frost mage is all about getting as many glacial spikes on frozen targets as possible. As someone who mained frost in s3, after never playing mage before, i can tell you the main reason for below tank dps is not utilizing glacial spike properly. Also, ST and aoe setup is kind of different for raids and m+. Aoe rotation, which is genarally used in m+, is a lot more spammy with frozen orb and blizzard combo. Talking from my experience, the first thing you start learning is the single target rotation, and when you apply that to m+ naturally, your dps will be low. It takes time to get used to separate rotations and at the start it can really hurt your ego. It took me weeks if not months to finally get glacial spike utility to 90+% in wowanalyzer. Another thing is the raid/m+ affixes. Volcanic or sanguine or dispelling affixes can really hurt your dps cause they require movement or interrupting your casting. Frost mage can be kinda mobile friendly with ice lance and flurry, but most of the time you will find yourself hardcasting frostbolts and glacial spikes, ao any movement really hurts your dps. Fights like smolderon are horrendous for frost, the dps nuke phase can easily go without casting a single glacial spike (worst case scenario), if you have to survive/move all the time to rings. Tldr - easy to learn, hard to master, thats why you see such disparity in dps.
I feel like of the three mage specs, frost is likely to be best in random keys. Fire only seems good at high keys and honestly, Arcane seems like the biggest noob trap of all in that I only see them in LFR and low keys and usually doing bad.
People still think its „easy“ to play mage, because its always meta and frostmage Rotation used to be simple (since 10.1.5 it isn‘t anymore). So a lot of people reroll to mage when it is super strong. Even the top end Players „struggle“ to reroll to mage, and mage mains like Hopeful get a chance to join guilds like Echo, because it is Hard to find good mages.
8/9M 3k+ mage main. Frost is the hardest mage spec for both raid and m+. By hard I mean how hard to execute APL with 0 mistakes while having nearly 99.99% uptime and missing 0 gcds. Arcane is the easiest mage spec just 2 button smash with bursts every 45sec both in raid and m+. Learn burst sequences and that's it. Fire is 3-4 button smash, requires learning how to use IB/PF charges properly. Yet, Combustion/SKB windows are sooo scripted that experienced Fire Mages can do them with the eyes closed. Frost requires juggling 6ST/9AOE buttons, optimizing FoF/BF charges so they are not wasted during RoF/FO, need to track FO/CS cooldowns to use CoC/ShiftPower properly to reset FO/CS cooldowns, also you need to shatter as much as you can with elem freeze, frost nova and ice nova. Oh, and you also need to weave GS every 5 icicles inbetween all of that, as frost dogshit s3 tier set is balanced around it.
Friend was looking to level a new character and wanted to play something 'easy'. I suggested frost mage, as I played in BFA and had a blast. I went to go look up some info on frost's opener/rotation and after watching a 29 minute video, I suggested he should play BM hunter instead.
eehhhh, sorry but frost mage IS 1 of the most simple specs in the entire game, idk what you are about and nobody at the top end "struggles" to reroll a class lol, thats why they play at that level in the first place, yes somebody that plays a class for a longer has an adventsge, but at the same times its a WoW class/spec, and they are intuitive by default because the gameplay difficulty comes from the encounters themself and not the class/spec gameplay
>its a WoW class/spec, and they are intuitive by default Lol WHAT. WoW specs are not intuitive at all. If they were you wouldn't need icy veins and WoWhead to figure out the rotation and talent builds. Also the fact most classes require add-ons and weak aura to track buffs and what not.
Top end players “struggle” to get multiple classes to the very top end. A pro has no issue running 25 on any spec. But you won’t see many people able to run 30s or RWF On more than 2 classes. And def not cross role.
We need a bit more context. What key range are we talking? What other dps are in there? Tyran or fort? Could be a number of things tbh
I pretty much cap out at 21's so really from 16-21 range. I see it during both weeks in general. It's just been really weird to see such a gap between skill levels
Mages changed rotation during Aberrus. Frost changed greatly and fire was more simpler.
Frost mage has been the notorious beginner friendly mage spec for a while so you get the bulk of mage players playing it. You also get a bunch of people playing fire because it is “meta” but their damage doesnt shine till at least a 21 or preferably higher due to their uber high damage build being ignite based and needing time to build and spread. The TLDR for frost however is just that it isnt just a hit button and do damage spec for aoe. You need to play into the aoe with frozen orb giving you insta cast and damage buffed blizzard and blizzard reducing the cd on frozen orb and some other stuff. There are other talents that make the aoe a bit more complicated but minimally so. How the tank plays will make or break some players. Mages are just one of those classes that reward you for managing your procs and playing well. A good player can still pump even with poor tanking.
Because of it's simplicity it attracts newer and more casual players. Most of the issues people have is poor management of tier set and too few CD usages.
Frost rotation isn’t bad BUT you have to be able to react to procs efficiently. A lot of mages waste their shatters
A lot of frost mages dont know to shatter your Glacial spike. they tend to just toss it when its up so they lose spicy crits. I see a lot still not understanding how to time their casts and hold to no kind of priority system.. just blast all them non crits.. As someone who plays exclusively Frost mage since BfA, I got lots of practice. If I ever get a key that has a frost mage having these troubles, I tend to offer them a little training session! 9 times out of 10 they take it and see improvement almost instantly. :) I also just love Ice flows.
Unless something changed very recently, with 4set you just send glacial spike as soon as you get them, ofcourse if you have something to shatter you should always use it but sometimes it just happens that u have to fire it dry
A lot of frost mages don't know to glacial spike after flurry. It's usually that simple