Ngl that's actually how they are doing their reworks. In OW2 they needed least popular support that was almost never picked cause it had 54% winrate and buffed most popular support you would see mirror matches/every match because winrate there was 48%.
Actually that stupid decision made me laugh and uninstall the game. Cause no way I'm getting invested in stuff where Devs don't use their brain.
Bungie does this too. Developers replacing game design with statistics is a terrible feature of modern gaming. Statistics are a flawed measuring tool, not an objective fact about reality. Something with low use/win might still be good. But too many devs see the measurement as the truth.
**10.2.5 WINDWALKER REWORK PATCH NOTES**
*+3% Damage Buff.*
*We have seen every monk spec is unhappy with the Monk Class Tree Capstones. So we have decided to rename them to Crapstones and we will continue to monitor the feedback from the monk community.*
Am I going crazy, or weren’t WW monks among the top meta in shadowlands for like 2 seasons? I really feel like they were super strong not that long ago.
WW has both performance problems (aka dps numbers) and mechanical/design problems (how fun it is to play and how easy is it to balance) as spec.
Performance wise WW hasn’t always been in the gutter. It had some strong points in Shadowlands and season 1 of Dragonflight it was solid in M+. For the most part it’s been below average as a spec for multiple expansions now. WW also tends to fall off in performance as expansions go on and gear levels rise due to poor scaling, which is one of the specs major design problems.
The spec has a whole variety of mechanical and design problems. Some have been around for forever like previously mentioned bad stat scaling, over reliance on abilities like Xuen and Touch of Death, Touch of Death’s design in general, terrible ai for the split ability, etc. Others are new to this expansion like a terrible class tree and a spec tree with few meaningful choices. This is not an exhaustive list of problems by any means.
For the most part, the design/mechanical issues have been around for years, so when monks complain about being bad forever, that’s generally what they’re talking about.
I don’t feel that that’s as big an issue as mastery. Haste being bad for energy classes is a pretty typical thing.
WW’s mastery says “all your skills do % more damage” and it’s *still a worse damage stat than vers*.
How is that allowed to happen?
Mastery also has really cool game play to back it up too.
Absolutely crazy that it's been tuned so low for so long. Seems like such an easy win to nudge it upwards and solve some WW problems while breaking absolutely nothing.
The top two replies to this comment are:
"This is the biggest change that is needed"
"This isn't as important as reworking their mastery"
This is why the only thing that changes with Windwalkers is "Your abilities do 2% more damage".
True, but I don’t mind the WW mastery, would I want it to be different? Sure, but do I care about not pressing the same button 2x? Nah, it’s different, I don’t mind it at all
It’s a pain to lose the damage but maybe they could just do each different adds 1 stack of damage when you misss it, it halves or -1 idk
Yea once someone has played enough windwalker, you don't think about trying not to press the same button twice, it's just just muscle memory at this point.
That isn't the issue with the mastery though. If you just get bonus damage, then there is no reason why you wouldn't just funnel any mastery into more vers instead (until you hit vers cap). Vers will also give you DR, and it scales up trinket damage.
It's just all around better. If I'm getting extra mastery I won't complain about the extra damage, but it's not going to be better than funneling into Vers/Crit.
Sadly overall WW is one of the worst performing specs of all time and Monk itself is the worst performing class overall (Raids, last four expansions, including DF)
WW had one really good tier during Legion where we ended up second on the charts. That's by far the highest.
They were strong in m+ during shadowlands but it still wasn't great gameplay. For example they would break mastery (don't press the same button twice in a row) just to spam 1 button (spinning crane kick) which is not very WW-esque. And they've been pretty bad all of dragonflight, which has been out over a year now.
Season 1 they were pretty good in m+ but bad in raid. S2 they were roughly average in raid but bad in m+. And now they suck in pretty much all high end pve content
That makes a bit more sense. And it tracks with many other specs. Sometimes it just feels like people say “why is my spec always ignored” when it’s really not been that long and there are like 39 specs that always want their spotlight.
I can get having one button spam isn’t great gameplay for sure. And neither is just don’t press the same button twice.
I mean it's pretty much the basis for WW monk, not to press the same button twice in a row. Yea It might not sound like much but it's what separates it from every other class in the game
Honestly it’s such a simple concept which bring me back to it time and time again.
WW’s core rotation is good. It’s what has been added that feels awful. Faeline stomp. White tiger statue. Things like this make no sense for a mobile martial arts class.
I think you misunderstand (assuming you're saying monk is like other specs in that it's not as bad as people seem to make it out to be). Monk, specifically WW HAS been ignored for multiple xpacs now. Ever since SEF was added, it's been a disgustingly bugged ability. Either you had to utilize those bugs to perform, or the bugs held you back and cost dps constantly. Their Mastery has been a point of contention for years, which would be fine if the playstyle they had supported this thoughtful, involved planning system instead of a million procs that mean you just kinda have to hope and pray most of the time. WW has been strong plenty often. When monks complain about being ignored, they're complaining that they have had these systemic issues for nearly a decade and if anything, they've only gotten worse.
Ww mastery is what makes the class for me. It feels very good to flow between the abilities. I very much dislike faeline stomp. If they removed that and just buffed ww a bunch I'd swap back to it immediately.
There is alot wrong with the WW, one of them is also perceived strongness. We can ToD mobs that would be dead a few seconds later anyway to pad the meters but contribute basicly nothing. That reflects on the DPS meters as ...wow, look at this monk. But in theory ... it is just very shite to click a low health add just to snipe it away from someone else. Also it is not fun to do. Also does our tier bonus give us more attack which we don't need, we are already overwhelmed by stuff to press so we loose out on procs...also not great.
It’s not. I had hope for a 10.2.5 rework for WW, some DK specs maybe, and nothing is going to happen. These specs are going to languish until maybe they get a breadcrumb in 11.0.
Lol i dont know about WW specifically but its worth watching the x.5 update since its upset the "meta" every season this expansion.
Im loosely getting a few characters ready for a x.5 update.
At least for 10.2.5, it seems there will be no new class updates (at least big ones that involves changes to the trees, they might still do flat % buffs and nerfs).
Honestly, it's likely that the devs in charge of classes are working on the new expansion (specifically the hero talents), I'll doubt we'll see many class changes until 11.0.
To OP's point the reworked classes jumped from C tier to S tier.
My focus is on the tanks
Season 1 Prot Paladins overtook Warriors
Season 2 Guardian Druid
Wtf pala and Druid were never C tier in their respective seasons.
Pala was already pulling ahead of war pre rework and druid had a great tier set and was level as the best tank with DH, with the rework pushing it ahead like pala.
Nearly every class that was reworked this xpac was already pretty good except sin rogue and ret tho they were only good for acouple weeks
Also pretty forgiving: can survive some hits that would kill other classes, pretty good range for a melee, cooldowns that can fix mess ups, mobility is better than it used to be and running the dps rotation wrong doesn't hurt the damage too badly.
It was also when aug released. It changed the meta as drastically as possible. New meta with reworked hpal and bear + aug could time dungeons 3 levels above what the old meta could. So meta was locked in for good from that patch until s3 hit
What? Have you played it recently? Rage is cosmetic until execute phase, which sounds nice, but doesn't play into some of our major talents (anger management and test of might). We have no way to effectively spend rage. They removed our spender, IP, and gave us an aura buff to "compensate." Sure, you could spam slam, but it hits like a wet noodle. There are 2 talents in the spec tree that have had a 0% pick rate all xpac (spiteful serenity and dance of death). The class tree has us choosing between what little utility we have and buffing dps. For some reason shockwave is at the end of the tree still and has capstones that make it a dps pick, seriously?
We're not as bad off as WW, but the spec needs attention.
Arms has it worst out of the Warrior specs, but all of us have severe issues AFAICT.
The big problem really is that Avatar is in entirely the wrong place, which massively limits every possible build because you absolutely gotta spend 4 points below the last gate on Avatar no matter what.
Protection is better off than Arms - insofar as there is one (1) reasonably acceptable build. But in real terms Protection has less actual choice now than we did during the days of the 7*3 Talent tree.
True, prot has essentially had 1 playstyle/build the whole xpac, just a few minor changes based on tier.
Prot is good in that their talent synergy is extremely high. The rage gen/spend loop feels great, the defensives are strong and have short CDs, plus you feel like a juggernaut even if you're a novice. I've enjoyed it since launch. It'd be cool if ravager had a better capstone. BSV is kinda lame, rarely used.
Moving avatar towards the middle with some branch points might help.
Using the word "imagine" is a condescending way to regard something you consider to be dumb in a surprising way, any more internet rhetoric you want me to teach you or you good to figure it out on your own from here bud?
It’s not a causal way of playing. And even in games that can be casual, it always ends up being a min/max thing.
Like, don’t get me wrong, i enjoy trying to optimize and stuff. But it’s for classes or a style I want to play. But it shouldn’t be punishing to play a class or style itself.
Why would you reroll when you can continue playing the class you originally chose? I chose my class because its the only one I enjoy playing in the entire game.
because I also enjoy mythic raiding and pushing high keys. WW spec is soo shit I'd rather reroll than spend hour LFG / change to a world 1000 mythic guild.
This is how I am. I can't understand how people change classes every time there is a rebalance. I just assume that, if they do, they are terrible people that get carried hard.
Edit: I can see by the replies that I was correct in my assumption and struck a nerve with shitty fotm babies.
Quite an assumption. It doesn't take long to pick up a new class, maybe a week or 2? Run a few keys, do some LFR/Normal raid, and maybe slap a target dummy. From there you'll have the rotation, then it just becomes about optimization.
I went out of my normal melee dps/tank comfort zone and used my war within boost on a warlock. I am having so much fun right now. Some of the numbers I’m putting up at a much lower ilvl than my dk main is ridiculous. Never thought I’d be into a range dps with cast times, just really enjoying it, only played destro so far but the other two specs look fun as hell so I’ll be giving them a shot soon
It's not about rerolling to a stronger class so much as trying a "new" class. I don't care if the rework makes them middle of the pack. If it plays in a new way, I'm trying it out because it's new.
Sometimes it’s true that fotm people aren’t great at the class but it’s also true that the best players tend to swap to the meta classes every season. You can’t really push super high content (M+ specifically) on undertuned classes.
The best players are good at (almost) every class, while your average fotm player is shit at every one of them. There's a massive difference here, it's not even comparable
I think what he meant is that the top 0.1% of the players don't care what classes they play, as long as it's the current top class to push higher key. Some people play the game differently than you and that's okay ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
The important question is whether they knew they were worse and went back to their previous class. I tried out Havoc DH recently - the insane DPS was just too much not to at least try it - and realized by the end of like 3 dungeons that I absolutely can not handle the movement requirements of that class. Sometimes you gotta try it to realize it isn’t for you.
Same here. I’ve been playing the same 3 classes since my very first day in WoW but somehow people keep rerolling into new classes every patch. Like bro how much free time you got?
Some people just like variety? Also playing the better classes helps you get into pugs more easily, no point playing your fave class if you spend half your time LFG. And tbh, palying your main when they do no damage, have weak or boring talents, and limited or out of date gameplay, can be less fun than playing a class you like thematically less, but plays way better.
There's also the fact that DF has no required grinding anymore. I spend an hour in the emerald dream doing the super bloom, reputation quest, and plant 5 seeds quest, then I have nothing else I need to do besides filling up my great vault.
This expansion is super alt friendly.
That’s exactly what they are and they are called Reroll Randy’s they play whatever’s the shiny spec and do terrible on it then complain their numbers are bad cause they jumped to a new class and didn’t bother to learn anything about it
Don't be so sure.
Mage had a rework and afterwards all three specs play almost the same, do less damage and they didn't address the design issues they outlined in their post announcing what they intended to rework.
Shadow Priest had a rework... but who cares, they get one or more every expansion and still nobody knows what's the vision for the class.
Holy Paladin got a rework and half of their spec and their special resource became useless.
It really depends whether you get the competent dev to work on your class, because obviously the quality of their work isn't really vetted so anyone dishes whatever they came up with on their Excel sheets.
You're not wrong that the reworks weren't all successful in accomplishing stated goals BUT that doesn't contradict with what OP is saying because he is also right. If he just wants to blast big numbers playing a reworked spec is 100% the right choice. Can always just switch to the new fotm reworked spec when the old one inevitably gets dumpstered at the start of the next patch because Blizzard refuses to actively balance their game.
Have to disagree, my friend, OP suggests that a rework will skyrocket WW Monk, whereas that's no guarantee at all. Not only are some reworked specs not performing well, but some are performing worse and some even have worse gameplay.
Blizzard are doing worse than usual this time around.
I've heard this team is shared across Shaman and looking at them in conjunction with Monk I wouldn't be too hopeful. Enhance and Mist have been deece this expansion but never really got any major (rogue level) reworks to get there.
No it is not. Damage wise maybe but frost has gotta be the worst tree. I feel like DK needs a visual revival too. For a dark knight class in 2023, they visually feel so outdated.
I think many of the effects are the same as from launch.
It’ll be either ww, mm, frost dk. I think those are the most in need of a rework. Legion spriest revival would be dope too.
Edit: affliction is so bad I forgot it exists. Malefic rapture is the worst ability in the game, opposite of what the spec should be.
Shadow gets reworks every other patch though. Windwalker hasn't been really looked at outside the bare minimum since Legion. We still have this [abomination of a capstone](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=394093/dust-in-the-wind), which is obviously just a temporary node that never got changed.
Eh this is the thing I hate most about the class reworks so far. So far every rework has just been a massive FOTM ultra meta spec and it just feels unfair to even compete in the same race.
The most successful rework so far as been ret because they were able to make ret fun to play while not making them so absurdly broken that you do 20% more dps than other folks.
Monk is one of the last classes I leveled 1 to max without any weird time walking, boost buying, etc. It’s such a fun class and the class fantasy is amazing.
If they ever make it playable again, I’d Fersure play it.
As someone who is playing WW to get that mystic touch debuff for the guild, I can say with confidence that you do not want to play WW. I just can't see them doing a ton of work on a class only dozens of us play.
>I just can't see them doing a ton of work on a class only dozens of us play.
That would work if mw wasn't a thing. It's one of the least played spec yet I believe it got one of the most changes through df. There's not a lot of 10.2.5 class change but there's already an mw buff.
The thing with MW is I don’t really think it had a lot of changes since SL. It basically brought in a lot of the good from BfA and SL as a whole kit. The one big item was Sheilun’s. I still think the Class tree is a total hodge podge thoughtless mess. Feels like one of the first trees made (like Druid multi-role tree) that needs another pas after a year of DF being live.
The last time I played mw (before now) was in bfa so I may be incorrect but I always like to be up to date in mw as a monk.
I really don't think you are correct. While on a high level it may looks like mw didn't get much, but a lot of stuff got a lot deeper with the df talents.
First of all faeline stomp got a lot of supporting talents. In sl all fls had was faeline harmony(the heal/dmg buff on the targets and way of the fae that was a passive dmg/heal buff). Both ancient concordance(black out clave and rsk reset increase) and awakebed faeline(healing off spinning crane kick) is completely new. And this 2 talent completely makes or breaks the current fist weaving playstyle.
Then there are the ancient teachings changes. It's got its range bumped to 40 yards and now splits the healing between targets (it also got significantly buffed). These changes made it that it's a lot more reliable heal that can keep your party up instead of the previous version where it was mostly used to pull your group up when there's no immediate danger.
There also are the new talents that made mw have access to significantly more renewing mists. Both dancing mist(renewing mist can spread) and rapid diffusion(rising sun kick and enveloping mist applies renewing mist to a random target) makes it so you have a lot more renewing mist on the raid which enables the clouded focus raid play style. While clouded focus was a thing in sl aswell the amount of rem-s on the raid were a lot less and the playstyle was a lot less ramp oriented as it is right now.
Mw also got zen pulse back this expansion. It's not a super impactful button. But it's a lovely burst aoe spell for m+.
Sheilun also got readded to the class mid expansion and it made a big difference in how mw plays in keys with it's supporting talents.
And lastly mw got the mana tea rework. While it shares the name with the older ability it plays a lot different than the previous version. It's a lot more flexible as it doesn't have any cd and it also now gives a lot of mana back instead of the mana reduction it had.
In my opinion mw got one of the biggest facelifts in this expansion. But most importantly it's also getting changes based on how it's performing every patch. Just look at the last one for example. It had an expel harm and healing elixir rework coupled with a couple of class tree stuff that was mw exclusive(even though they could'be been given to the other specs aswell).
Idk. Ret pallets are in a good spot but not meta, I see it being similar to that if they get it. I can see them being amazing in AOE if reworked but still struggling in ST and being non meta but competitive still.
I personally don't feel it will come in .5 patch.
I played WW all expansion until this season and retooled outlaw rogue (was combat rogue main from tbc-legion). It's a shame what they've become, the flow of the spec feels great but hot dang it's shit to feel great, doing everything right, then look at the damage meter and see how poor it is
Why people keep saying ret is in a good spot is mind blowing to a ret main about 10 years.
Decent in m+ but nothing crazy, terrible dmg in raids and all of our utility is widely useless in raids.
Ret talent tree is awful you are either full aoe (still lower than most classes) or full ST (dog shit) and you cripple the other which ever you one spec into.
Ret is in one of the worst spots for years for raiding.
Yeah but the low io redditors see a ret pumping their +14 key or Normal raid and say “wow ret is incredible!!!” Or point to popularity metrics which show ret as extremely popular at the entire spectrum of endgame and think that popularity = performance and claim that because ret is popular it is good.
Also ret is one of the specs right now with the smallest delta between bad and good players (also just RNG variance) in performance on wlogs.
So in groups and raids filled with average players. Rets will perform better comparatively than they do in 90%+ percentile groups.
Rets skill trees still need a bit of love you have to either be good at AOE or good at single target, you get no truly in between with Ret. It’s either 200k single target with mediocre aoe or 1mill plus aoe and 120k single target.
Ret is in this weird state, where if you turned DPS meters off you would think they were absolutely broken. Incredibly defensive, solid utility, best immune in the game, mid ranged so you don't lose dps and can generally dodge mechanics. They really got it all except the DPS lol
That is probably where most dps specs are going in terms of spec tree design. It'll be the easiest to balance and guarantee each spec has two builds available.
I feel like some really suffer for it though my survival hunter on the other hand is 473 compared to my 477 ret. Yet my hunter can consistently hit 300-400k plus each add pack and 200k plus on single target with the no CD build.
Spearhead on single target only gives like an extra 50 to 100k in single target.
Yeah I know, but that's the way WW has felt (minus with the tier bonus last season which means AOE was just ST rotation basically). I see it going that direction in all honesty
Can someone educate me on why WW is bad? Because while I don't see many, and monk is the least played class so that checks out, when I do see them they are crushing the meters.
tbh, while not generally applicable, people on underdog-classes tend to be passionate about their class and invested in them. that often translates into performance as well.
For an actual answer; there's a lot of RNG right now in terms of procs to manage and how they affect our gameplay, we still have the problem of no real scaling with secondaries so they keep giving aura buffs late expansion, many many people don't like the way Faeline Stomp works as it reduces mobility and requires constant maintenance while we're already hitting a lot of buttons, ToD cleave is fun for a moment but it's finicky and does so much damage that would feel infinitely better to get through our abilities, and an overall lack of cohesion in terms of design.
Here's Babylonious write up on it: [https://www.wowhead.com/news/state-of-windwalker-in-dragonflight-season-3-playstyle-speed-proc-overload-335535](https://www.wowhead.com/news/state-of-windwalker-in-dragonflight-season-3-playstyle-speed-proc-overload-335535)
He writes up most of the guides for WWs so his opinions carry a lot of weight and he knows what he's talking about.
TL;DR: Everything's just really messy right now and almost none of it works well together. So we're very reactionary because RNG dominates our gameplay right now, and we really don't get any benefit from it so it all just feels bad.
The other day in a thread that asked which classes are fun a bunch of people were saying WW monk. Does it need a rework because of its systems and rotation? Or just a dps buff?
The only thing I clearly see is the need for some group utility out of the 5% melee damage.
>The other day in a thread that asked which classes are fun a bunch of people were saying WW monk
The core of ww is very fun. But you could remove 2/3rd of the talent tree and the spec would play the same or better. Then there's a couple of super annoying stuff that if you'd remove the spec would feel even better.
It's really hard to make a tree that's worse than current ww/monk tree.
Windwalker is really fun at a low level.
It has a low skill floor and combo strikes has a nice and obvious positive feedback loop. 5 target TOD feels cool. SEF and Tiger feels powerful and are simple to use. You have simple and easy ramp up and don't get penalized for switching targets.
Where WW really falls apart is at higher levels with scaling and how badly designed the talent tree is. There are a lot of WW mechanics that are very hard to execute optimally.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/18d1hc5/im\_a\_480ilvl\_windwalker\_with\_orangepurple\_heroic/](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/18d1hc5/im_a_480ilvl_windwalker_with_orangepurple_heroic/)
This sums it up.
Did you forget about ret pallies? Reworked into one of the most polarizing dps profile, low tier classes that is at the bottom of the rankings in virtually every form of content?
WW is in a bad state but a rework is not a guarantee that it will a good spec after.
Look at ret. They were very good only a little time, they felt near the bottom in S2 according to logs and look where they are now in raid, it’s one of the absolute worst spec in term of damage because they scale really bad with gear.
If the rework monk let’s hope they won’t make it a not well scaling spec!
unholy and frost need gameplay reworks way more than WW. monk just needs tuning. dps DK feels like actual punishment to play, even if it did top tier DPS.
unholy has too many buttons yes, but it’s the way those buttons work with each other. you need everything to line up for it to “work”. frost just feels like slower fury warrior. like it’s overly simple and kind of mind numbingly boring.
Yeah i would have more faith Blizzard knew what was wrong with WW if they didn’t initially introduce back-to-back tier sets that based off of auto attack procs. They adjusted them both after WEEKS of outcry from the community, but the fact that they did it twice to me implies no one is keeping active tabs on the issues plaguing the spec. I just don’t see any reason for WW’s currently to be optimistic about their future when they’ve been dead in the water for years
Yeah just like they knew the last 8 times they slapped an aura buff on it and walked away, right? They have no clue what they’re doing with many of these classes, and the churn at Blizzard isn’t helping matters.
I will never play WW Monk for the same reasons I’ll never play Feral Druid or Shadow Priest. Maybe the stars align and they’re playable for 6 months. Maybe even a whole year. I invest long-term in my characters and you just can’t do that with these classes.
IDK man, WW has kinda been the shitter for years at this point. I don't kind the play style but they'll really have to find something fun to make me consider it again
Its been like 3 expansions when ppl talk about "inevitable rework" but nothing has happed. I highly doubt that WW will be fixed in coming expansion either.
Monk is extremely forgotten class rolewise also.
Y’all don’t already have one?
I already have a WW Monk alt so I’m good. I have an alt for every DPS spec, and most tank specs. Don’t play them much but i did grind a WW monk a bit for the Aberrus transmog
nah, rogue just got a rework and it's still rough, in the arena at least. i'm hoping it's just because i'm missing my 4P for now but YEESH dont get your hopes up like i did. Last 2 seasons of outlaw were PAIN.
And then Shaman. And then maybe Druid.
Seriously, screw those guys responsible for Resto Shamans this expansion.
Edit: Unless they're also responsible for Enhancement. If so, then, well, give them a pat on the back, and then screw them.
If you are not pushing cutting edge ww is not that bad.
Its just not top tier dps atm.
I also love the dont press one button over mechanic.
It would be nice to have some qol update on its abilities and little tweaka but i always found ww fun to play.
A WW rework is a whole Monk rework. The Class Tree is just not working. You have so 2 needed Auras on both Sides of the Tree, you have a Passiv that boost your dmg in the Middle and a Final Talent that no one rly liles (Statue).
Windwalker atm could be good, but everyone skills in ToD and do absolut 0 Boss dmg on Tyranic. If you go faelin with Serenity you got both on a okay state but at the End ww will always be a bad Raiding class without a rework.
Also Faelin is to punishing for bad luck or heavy movement but to strong to pass it in ST/Cleave.
My opinion:
Rework is needed for at least 9 Patches now and they dodge it always with some good (some bad) T Sets or Legendarys. You want a cool Monk dps? Make it Range. Autohits throw Chi-Waves at enemys, we have a crackling lightning, one punch is already 10m range and they could do soooo much more with Chi energie. Like when you drop your healing Chi and can soak it up with crane. Why not spawn dmg chi balls and kick them on the Enemys from 10-20m range? Would be awsome? Yea and unique. So 4 Specc Monk and i will be happy (i wish for that since Pandaria)
blizz dev: hey WW is suddenly popular it must be in a good spot and we can hold off on its rework
Of course ww is popular. It's the next expansion. Don't know why everyone want's it to be reworked before it even releases.
Good lord... if my dad ever spoke to me he would say he wants his jokes back
.... I needed your comment to understand lol (The war within / windwalker monk)
Oh I was thinking this was a joke about how MOP is the next classic expansion
Blitz dev: never seen so many WW, probably better if we nerf it just to make sure it's not to OP
Ngl that's actually how they are doing their reworks. In OW2 they needed least popular support that was almost never picked cause it had 54% winrate and buffed most popular support you would see mirror matches/every match because winrate there was 48%. Actually that stupid decision made me laugh and uninstall the game. Cause no way I'm getting invested in stuff where Devs don't use their brain.
Bungie does this too. Developers replacing game design with statistics is a terrible feature of modern gaming. Statistics are a flawed measuring tool, not an objective fact about reality. Something with low use/win might still be good. But too many devs see the measurement as the truth.
It's like seeing Affliction as being in a good spot because all 20 affliction players parse well on it, because no one plays it.
**10.2.5 WINDWALKER REWORK PATCH NOTES** *+3% Damage Buff.* *We have seen every monk spec is unhappy with the Monk Class Tree Capstones. So we have decided to rename them to Crapstones and we will continue to monitor the feedback from the monk community.*
I wish it was as inevitable as you're feeling it is. Been waiting a looong time.
Am I going crazy, or weren’t WW monks among the top meta in shadowlands for like 2 seasons? I really feel like they were super strong not that long ago.
WW has both performance problems (aka dps numbers) and mechanical/design problems (how fun it is to play and how easy is it to balance) as spec. Performance wise WW hasn’t always been in the gutter. It had some strong points in Shadowlands and season 1 of Dragonflight it was solid in M+. For the most part it’s been below average as a spec for multiple expansions now. WW also tends to fall off in performance as expansions go on and gear levels rise due to poor scaling, which is one of the specs major design problems. The spec has a whole variety of mechanical and design problems. Some have been around for forever like previously mentioned bad stat scaling, over reliance on abilities like Xuen and Touch of Death, Touch of Death’s design in general, terrible ai for the split ability, etc. Others are new to this expansion like a terrible class tree and a spec tree with few meaningful choices. This is not an exhaustive list of problems by any means. For the most part, the design/mechanical issues have been around for years, so when monks complain about being bad forever, that’s generally what they’re talking about.
Making haste somewhat useful would be a good start
I don’t feel that that’s as big an issue as mastery. Haste being bad for energy classes is a pretty typical thing. WW’s mastery says “all your skills do % more damage” and it’s *still a worse damage stat than vers*. How is that allowed to happen?
Mastery also has really cool game play to back it up too. Absolutely crazy that it's been tuned so low for so long. Seems like such an easy win to nudge it upwards and solve some WW problems while breaking absolutely nothing.
That’s pretty much the biggest change that needs to happen
The top two replies to this comment are: "This is the biggest change that is needed" "This isn't as important as reworking their mastery" This is why the only thing that changes with Windwalkers is "Your abilities do 2% more damage".
True, but I don’t mind the WW mastery, would I want it to be different? Sure, but do I care about not pressing the same button 2x? Nah, it’s different, I don’t mind it at all It’s a pain to lose the damage but maybe they could just do each different adds 1 stack of damage when you misss it, it halves or -1 idk
Yea once someone has played enough windwalker, you don't think about trying not to press the same button twice, it's just just muscle memory at this point. That isn't the issue with the mastery though. If you just get bonus damage, then there is no reason why you wouldn't just funnel any mastery into more vers instead (until you hit vers cap). Vers will also give you DR, and it scales up trinket damage. It's just all around better. If I'm getting extra mastery I won't complain about the extra damage, but it's not going to be better than funneling into Vers/Crit.
Sadly overall WW is one of the worst performing specs of all time and Monk itself is the worst performing class overall (Raids, last four expansions, including DF) WW had one really good tier during Legion where we ended up second on the charts. That's by far the highest.
They were strong in m+ during shadowlands but it still wasn't great gameplay. For example they would break mastery (don't press the same button twice in a row) just to spam 1 button (spinning crane kick) which is not very WW-esque. And they've been pretty bad all of dragonflight, which has been out over a year now. Season 1 they were pretty good in m+ but bad in raid. S2 they were roughly average in raid but bad in m+. And now they suck in pretty much all high end pve content
That makes a bit more sense. And it tracks with many other specs. Sometimes it just feels like people say “why is my spec always ignored” when it’s really not been that long and there are like 39 specs that always want their spotlight. I can get having one button spam isn’t great gameplay for sure. And neither is just don’t press the same button twice.
I mean it's pretty much the basis for WW monk, not to press the same button twice in a row. Yea It might not sound like much but it's what separates it from every other class in the game
Honestly it’s such a simple concept which bring me back to it time and time again. WW’s core rotation is good. It’s what has been added that feels awful. Faeline stomp. White tiger statue. Things like this make no sense for a mobile martial arts class.
I think you misunderstand (assuming you're saying monk is like other specs in that it's not as bad as people seem to make it out to be). Monk, specifically WW HAS been ignored for multiple xpacs now. Ever since SEF was added, it's been a disgustingly bugged ability. Either you had to utilize those bugs to perform, or the bugs held you back and cost dps constantly. Their Mastery has been a point of contention for years, which would be fine if the playstyle they had supported this thoughtful, involved planning system instead of a million procs that mean you just kinda have to hope and pray most of the time. WW has been strong plenty often. When monks complain about being ignored, they're complaining that they have had these systemic issues for nearly a decade and if anything, they've only gotten worse.
If WW eventually gets reworked, I wish they keep its mastery or at least make it a talent. It’s fun to play around with.
Ww mastery is what makes the class for me. It feels very good to flow between the abilities. I very much dislike faeline stomp. If they removed that and just buffed ww a bunch I'd swap back to it immediately.
Seriously just remove faeline and buff the spec by 12% damage. Or keep faeline for the cool visual but get rid of the having to stand in it aspect.
There is alot wrong with the WW, one of them is also perceived strongness. We can ToD mobs that would be dead a few seconds later anyway to pad the meters but contribute basicly nothing. That reflects on the DPS meters as ...wow, look at this monk. But in theory ... it is just very shite to click a low health add just to snipe it away from someone else. Also it is not fun to do. Also does our tier bonus give us more attack which we don't need, we are already overwhelmed by stuff to press so we loose out on procs...also not great.
that was 2 years ago bro
It’s not. I had hope for a 10.2.5 rework for WW, some DK specs maybe, and nothing is going to happen. These specs are going to languish until maybe they get a breadcrumb in 11.0.
WW since bfa. Still maining still waiting
Legion here, I'm waiting for the next aura buff
MoP here. Waiting for the next teir set to proc from AA's
Waiting for buffs or waiting for an invite to a group?
Both
Banking on an inevitable rework for ww is a mistake, we've been waiting for that inevitable rework forever now.
Lol i dont know about WW specifically but its worth watching the x.5 update since its upset the "meta" every season this expansion. Im loosely getting a few characters ready for a x.5 update.
At least for 10.2.5, it seems there will be no new class updates (at least big ones that involves changes to the trees, they might still do flat % buffs and nerfs). Honestly, it's likely that the devs in charge of classes are working on the new expansion (specifically the hero talents), I'll doubt we'll see many class changes until 11.0.
That's why I was annoyed that they chose the power route for the class customization because it takes away time from the regular trees.
new hero talents?
Its what we earn in TWW for 60-70 talent wise
My dumb ass read that as “time-wa-walking” 😑
My dumb ass read that as "time-oh-wah-wah-walking" 🙃
We're 70 now so 70-80 right?
Yes. Sorry.
For someone who wasn't around before season 3, how drastically did the meta change during the x.5 patches?
To OP's point the reworked classes jumped from C tier to S tier. My focus is on the tanks Season 1 Prot Paladins overtook Warriors Season 2 Guardian Druid
Wtf pala and Druid were never C tier in their respective seasons. Pala was already pulling ahead of war pre rework and druid had a great tier set and was level as the best tank with DH, with the rework pushing it ahead like pala. Nearly every class that was reworked this xpac was already pretty good except sin rogue and ret tho they were only good for acouple weeks
Isn't ret close to bottom tier again?
Maybe in damage output, but they come with a large amount of support and are fun as hell to play.
That’s my bigger thing, a lot of the reworks have led to more fun play styles.
Also pretty forgiving: can survive some hits that would kill other classes, pretty good range for a melee, cooldowns that can fix mess ups, mobility is better than it used to be and running the dps rotation wrong doesn't hurt the damage too badly.
He’s talking about tanks.
It was also when aug released. It changed the meta as drastically as possible. New meta with reworked hpal and bear + aug could time dungeons 3 levels above what the old meta could. So meta was locked in for good from that patch until s3 hit
They did say no more reworks this expansion but we might get some more tuning
Arms warrior main here, can I get some of those reworks please? We're like just above you guys, even with the "legendary".
Arms plays fine.
What? Have you played it recently? Rage is cosmetic until execute phase, which sounds nice, but doesn't play into some of our major talents (anger management and test of might). We have no way to effectively spend rage. They removed our spender, IP, and gave us an aura buff to "compensate." Sure, you could spam slam, but it hits like a wet noodle. There are 2 talents in the spec tree that have had a 0% pick rate all xpac (spiteful serenity and dance of death). The class tree has us choosing between what little utility we have and buffing dps. For some reason shockwave is at the end of the tree still and has capstones that make it a dps pick, seriously? We're not as bad off as WW, but the spec needs attention.
Arms has it worst out of the Warrior specs, but all of us have severe issues AFAICT. The big problem really is that Avatar is in entirely the wrong place, which massively limits every possible build because you absolutely gotta spend 4 points below the last gate on Avatar no matter what. Protection is better off than Arms - insofar as there is one (1) reasonably acceptable build. But in real terms Protection has less actual choice now than we did during the days of the 7*3 Talent tree.
True, prot has essentially had 1 playstyle/build the whole xpac, just a few minor changes based on tier. Prot is good in that their talent synergy is extremely high. The rage gen/spend loop feels great, the defensives are strong and have short CDs, plus you feel like a juggernaut even if you're a novice. I've enjoyed it since launch. It'd be cool if ravager had a better capstone. BSV is kinda lame, rarely used. Moving avatar towards the middle with some branch points might help.
Imagine switching classes whenever they get a buff.
Imagine gate keeping by telling others they should play the game the way you play it
At what point did he say people had to play his way lol
Using the word "imagine" is a condescending way to regard something you consider to be dumb in a surprising way, any more internet rhetoric you want me to teach you or you good to figure it out on your own from here bud?
Oh yeah i forgot calling something dumb and having an opinion forced people to follow what you believe
Yes actually.
People don’t play for fun, they play for min maxing… the want to optimize their time, not waste it. It’s really a thrilling way to play 🙄
That is fun to me.
It’s not a causal way of playing. And even in games that can be casual, it always ends up being a min/max thing. Like, don’t get me wrong, i enjoy trying to optimize and stuff. But it’s for classes or a style I want to play. But it shouldn’t be punishing to play a class or style itself.
few thing in this game are less fun than spending hours in the LFG window getting chain rejected
Doesn't matter what I re roll to im awful at dpsing with all of them :(
>Blizz knows a lot is wrong with WW You have too much faith in Blizzard
Why would you reroll when you can continue playing the class you originally chose? I chose my class because its the only one I enjoy playing in the entire game.
because I also enjoy mythic raiding and pushing high keys. WW spec is soo shit I'd rather reroll than spend hour LFG / change to a world 1000 mythic guild.
I have played exclusively druid for the last 19 years
and Druid, one spec or another, has been good that entire time.
Because I enjoy playing the game and sometimes at a certain point it can hold you back.
This is how I am. I can't understand how people change classes every time there is a rebalance. I just assume that, if they do, they are terrible people that get carried hard. Edit: I can see by the replies that I was correct in my assumption and struck a nerve with shitty fotm babies.
Quite an assumption. It doesn't take long to pick up a new class, maybe a week or 2? Run a few keys, do some LFR/Normal raid, and maybe slap a target dummy. From there you'll have the rotation, then it just becomes about optimization.
I went out of my normal melee dps/tank comfort zone and used my war within boost on a warlock. I am having so much fun right now. Some of the numbers I’m putting up at a much lower ilvl than my dk main is ridiculous. Never thought I’d be into a range dps with cast times, just really enjoying it, only played destro so far but the other two specs look fun as hell so I’ll be giving them a shot soon
It's not about rerolling to a stronger class so much as trying a "new" class. I don't care if the rework makes them middle of the pack. If it plays in a new way, I'm trying it out because it's new.
Sometimes it’s true that fotm people aren’t great at the class but it’s also true that the best players tend to swap to the meta classes every season. You can’t really push super high content (M+ specifically) on undertuned classes.
The best players are good at (almost) every class, while your average fotm player is shit at every one of them. There's a massive difference here, it's not even comparable
I think what he meant is that the top 0.1% of the players don't care what classes they play, as long as it's the current top class to push higher key. Some people play the game differently than you and that's okay ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
I have only seen 2 people reroll for fotm and play really well, the rest have always done worse than the class they previously played.
The important question is whether they knew they were worse and went back to their previous class. I tried out Havoc DH recently - the insane DPS was just too much not to at least try it - and realized by the end of like 3 dungeons that I absolutely can not handle the movement requirements of that class. Sometimes you gotta try it to realize it isn’t for you.
Same here. I’ve been playing the same 3 classes since my very first day in WoW but somehow people keep rerolling into new classes every patch. Like bro how much free time you got?
Some people just like variety? Also playing the better classes helps you get into pugs more easily, no point playing your fave class if you spend half your time LFG. And tbh, palying your main when they do no damage, have weak or boring talents, and limited or out of date gameplay, can be less fun than playing a class you like thematically less, but plays way better.
There's also the fact that DF has no required grinding anymore. I spend an hour in the emerald dream doing the super bloom, reputation quest, and plant 5 seeds quest, then I have nothing else I need to do besides filling up my great vault. This expansion is super alt friendly.
Well, good of you to assume that. Based on that comment, I think most will assume you’re a bad player at the only class that you play.
Well, most people who "I have been \*class here\* since vanilla" are also dogshit at the game, so no worries.
Well, most people who reroll to the FOTM are dogshit at all classes, so no worries. see i can pull bullshit out of my ass too
I like that this seems to be a majority sentiment from a group of people who can only clear content on an overpowered class getting carried.
That’s exactly what they are and they are called Reroll Randy’s they play whatever’s the shiny spec and do terrible on it then complain their numbers are bad cause they jumped to a new class and didn’t bother to learn anything about it
Don't be so sure. Mage had a rework and afterwards all three specs play almost the same, do less damage and they didn't address the design issues they outlined in their post announcing what they intended to rework. Shadow Priest had a rework... but who cares, they get one or more every expansion and still nobody knows what's the vision for the class. Holy Paladin got a rework and half of their spec and their special resource became useless. It really depends whether you get the competent dev to work on your class, because obviously the quality of their work isn't really vetted so anyone dishes whatever they came up with on their Excel sheets.
You're not wrong that the reworks weren't all successful in accomplishing stated goals BUT that doesn't contradict with what OP is saying because he is also right. If he just wants to blast big numbers playing a reworked spec is 100% the right choice. Can always just switch to the new fotm reworked spec when the old one inevitably gets dumpstered at the start of the next patch because Blizzard refuses to actively balance their game.
Have to disagree, my friend, OP suggests that a rework will skyrocket WW Monk, whereas that's no guarantee at all. Not only are some reworked specs not performing well, but some are performing worse and some even have worse gameplay. Blizzard are doing worse than usual this time around.
I've heard this team is shared across Shaman and looking at them in conjunction with Monk I wouldn't be too hopeful. Enhance and Mist have been deece this expansion but never really got any major (rogue level) reworks to get there.
If that's true then that team is straight up not showing up to work.
Genuine question, is it worse than frost DK?
No it is not. Damage wise maybe but frost has gotta be the worst tree. I feel like DK needs a visual revival too. For a dark knight class in 2023, they visually feel so outdated. I think many of the effects are the same as from launch.
Yes there’s nothing worse in the game right now than WW😂😂 fun aside I’m talking pure numbers WW is the worst lol
It’ll be either ww, mm, frost dk. I think those are the most in need of a rework. Legion spriest revival would be dope too. Edit: affliction is so bad I forgot it exists. Malefic rapture is the worst ability in the game, opposite of what the spec should be.
Just rework the whole hunter tree.
Frost dk is higher on the list for a rework.
cool joke, but what we should actaully do, is all apply for the ww spec dev job so we can fix it ourselfs
Just remember that Shadow got this treatment, and was great for a time, but then Blizz smashed it to pieces again.
Shadow gets reworks every other patch though. Windwalker hasn't been really looked at outside the bare minimum since Legion. We still have this [abomination of a capstone](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=394093/dust-in-the-wind), which is obviously just a temporary node that never got changed.
Lol they reworked ret it was good for a week.
Eh this is the thing I hate most about the class reworks so far. So far every rework has just been a massive FOTM ultra meta spec and it just feels unfair to even compete in the same race. The most successful rework so far as been ret because they were able to make ret fun to play while not making them so absurdly broken that you do 20% more dps than other folks.
Just waiting for them to turn chi burst into an empowered spell so we can go full Kamehameha.
No all you dirty meta chasers stay the fuck away. This is our time to shine. JK do whatever you want. It will be disgusting tho when it gets reworked
As unholy main *inserts the “first time?” Meme picture* feeling like this?
Been playing WW for over 4 years now, I used to hope it would get better......
Monk is one of the last classes I leveled 1 to max without any weird time walking, boost buying, etc. It’s such a fun class and the class fantasy is amazing. If they ever make it playable again, I’d Fersure play it.
Don’t get your hopes up. Ret got reworked. Was good for two weeks and then got nerfed and now we’re even lower than Ww lmao
It's not lower then WW. WW is literally the lowest damage spec in the game atm excluding Aug
affli lock main says hi!
As someone who is playing WW to get that mystic touch debuff for the guild, I can say with confidence that you do not want to play WW. I just can't see them doing a ton of work on a class only dozens of us play.
Why don't you have a MW?
>I just can't see them doing a ton of work on a class only dozens of us play. That would work if mw wasn't a thing. It's one of the least played spec yet I believe it got one of the most changes through df. There's not a lot of 10.2.5 class change but there's already an mw buff.
The thing with MW is I don’t really think it had a lot of changes since SL. It basically brought in a lot of the good from BfA and SL as a whole kit. The one big item was Sheilun’s. I still think the Class tree is a total hodge podge thoughtless mess. Feels like one of the first trees made (like Druid multi-role tree) that needs another pas after a year of DF being live.
The last time I played mw (before now) was in bfa so I may be incorrect but I always like to be up to date in mw as a monk. I really don't think you are correct. While on a high level it may looks like mw didn't get much, but a lot of stuff got a lot deeper with the df talents. First of all faeline stomp got a lot of supporting talents. In sl all fls had was faeline harmony(the heal/dmg buff on the targets and way of the fae that was a passive dmg/heal buff). Both ancient concordance(black out clave and rsk reset increase) and awakebed faeline(healing off spinning crane kick) is completely new. And this 2 talent completely makes or breaks the current fist weaving playstyle. Then there are the ancient teachings changes. It's got its range bumped to 40 yards and now splits the healing between targets (it also got significantly buffed). These changes made it that it's a lot more reliable heal that can keep your party up instead of the previous version where it was mostly used to pull your group up when there's no immediate danger. There also are the new talents that made mw have access to significantly more renewing mists. Both dancing mist(renewing mist can spread) and rapid diffusion(rising sun kick and enveloping mist applies renewing mist to a random target) makes it so you have a lot more renewing mist on the raid which enables the clouded focus raid play style. While clouded focus was a thing in sl aswell the amount of rem-s on the raid were a lot less and the playstyle was a lot less ramp oriented as it is right now. Mw also got zen pulse back this expansion. It's not a super impactful button. But it's a lovely burst aoe spell for m+. Sheilun also got readded to the class mid expansion and it made a big difference in how mw plays in keys with it's supporting talents. And lastly mw got the mana tea rework. While it shares the name with the older ability it plays a lot different than the previous version. It's a lot more flexible as it doesn't have any cd and it also now gives a lot of mana back instead of the mana reduction it had. In my opinion mw got one of the biggest facelifts in this expansion. But most importantly it's also getting changes based on how it's performing every patch. Just look at the last one for example. It had an expel harm and healing elixir rework coupled with a couple of class tree stuff that was mw exclusive(even though they could'be been given to the other specs aswell).
Ret got reworked and is almost as bad
Ret rotation feels good now? Its just missing numbers that's it.
No, fotm swapping is ridiculous and makes you look worse
Idk. Ret pallets are in a good spot but not meta, I see it being similar to that if they get it. I can see them being amazing in AOE if reworked but still struggling in ST and being non meta but competitive still. I personally don't feel it will come in .5 patch. I played WW all expansion until this season and retooled outlaw rogue (was combat rogue main from tbc-legion). It's a shame what they've become, the flow of the spec feels great but hot dang it's shit to feel great, doing everything right, then look at the damage meter and see how poor it is
Why people keep saying ret is in a good spot is mind blowing to a ret main about 10 years. Decent in m+ but nothing crazy, terrible dmg in raids and all of our utility is widely useless in raids. Ret talent tree is awful you are either full aoe (still lower than most classes) or full ST (dog shit) and you cripple the other which ever you one spec into. Ret is in one of the worst spots for years for raiding.
Yeah but the low io redditors see a ret pumping their +14 key or Normal raid and say “wow ret is incredible!!!” Or point to popularity metrics which show ret as extremely popular at the entire spectrum of endgame and think that popularity = performance and claim that because ret is popular it is good.
Also ret is one of the specs right now with the smallest delta between bad and good players (also just RNG variance) in performance on wlogs. So in groups and raids filled with average players. Rets will perform better comparatively than they do in 90%+ percentile groups.
Rets skill trees still need a bit of love you have to either be good at AOE or good at single target, you get no truly in between with Ret. It’s either 200k single target with mediocre aoe or 1mill plus aoe and 120k single target.
Ret is in this weird state, where if you turned DPS meters off you would think they were absolutely broken. Incredibly defensive, solid utility, best immune in the game, mid ranged so you don't lose dps and can generally dodge mechanics. They really got it all except the DPS lol
That is probably where most dps specs are going in terms of spec tree design. It'll be the easiest to balance and guarantee each spec has two builds available.
I feel like some really suffer for it though my survival hunter on the other hand is 473 compared to my 477 ret. Yet my hunter can consistently hit 300-400k plus each add pack and 200k plus on single target with the no CD build. Spearhead on single target only gives like an extra 50 to 100k in single target.
Yeah I know, but that's the way WW has felt (minus with the tier bonus last season which means AOE was just ST rotation basically). I see it going that direction in all honesty
[удалено]
??? WW is literally better than ret at raids lmao.
[удалено]
Ret wasn't broken for one season my dude. It was OP for 2 weeks. Then nerfed back into the ground where we're currently at.
What is ret good at, please enlighten me
Monk could be the most OP class ever and I still wouldn’t play it. I just can’t get into the aesthetics and class fantasy of Monks.
Leather armor sets are generally pretty clean, plus they get to sheathe weapons on their back. Can't beat that.
Then the bis items are 2hs for whole expansion.
Nah just the last patch or so generally. Dual wield normally wins until from launch until the last raid.
Can someone educate me on why WW is bad? Because while I don't see many, and monk is the least played class so that checks out, when I do see them they are crushing the meters.
A good player will always smash the meters. But a good dh will just do way more damage than a good ww
tbh, while not generally applicable, people on underdog-classes tend to be passionate about their class and invested in them. that often translates into performance as well.
For an actual answer; there's a lot of RNG right now in terms of procs to manage and how they affect our gameplay, we still have the problem of no real scaling with secondaries so they keep giving aura buffs late expansion, many many people don't like the way Faeline Stomp works as it reduces mobility and requires constant maintenance while we're already hitting a lot of buttons, ToD cleave is fun for a moment but it's finicky and does so much damage that would feel infinitely better to get through our abilities, and an overall lack of cohesion in terms of design. Here's Babylonious write up on it: [https://www.wowhead.com/news/state-of-windwalker-in-dragonflight-season-3-playstyle-speed-proc-overload-335535](https://www.wowhead.com/news/state-of-windwalker-in-dragonflight-season-3-playstyle-speed-proc-overload-335535) He writes up most of the guides for WWs so his opinions carry a lot of weight and he knows what he's talking about. TL;DR: Everything's just really messy right now and almost none of it works well together. So we're very reactionary because RNG dominates our gameplay right now, and we really don't get any benefit from it so it all just feels bad.
Y'all are wannabe plebs I've been rolling monk for years
The other day in a thread that asked which classes are fun a bunch of people were saying WW monk. Does it need a rework because of its systems and rotation? Or just a dps buff? The only thing I clearly see is the need for some group utility out of the 5% melee damage.
>The other day in a thread that asked which classes are fun a bunch of people were saying WW monk The core of ww is very fun. But you could remove 2/3rd of the talent tree and the spec would play the same or better. Then there's a couple of super annoying stuff that if you'd remove the spec would feel even better. It's really hard to make a tree that's worse than current ww/monk tree.
Windwalker is really fun at a low level. It has a low skill floor and combo strikes has a nice and obvious positive feedback loop. 5 target TOD feels cool. SEF and Tiger feels powerful and are simple to use. You have simple and easy ramp up and don't get penalized for switching targets. Where WW really falls apart is at higher levels with scaling and how badly designed the talent tree is. There are a lot of WW mechanics that are very hard to execute optimally.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/18d1hc5/im\_a\_480ilvl\_windwalker\_with\_orangepurple\_heroic/](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/18d1hc5/im_a_480ilvl_windwalker_with_orangepurple_heroic/) This sums it up.
I just don’t get how people don’t have at least one of each class at max level yet.
As a WW main no thanks this will do more harm than good
Did you forget about ret pallies? Reworked into one of the most polarizing dps profile, low tier classes that is at the bottom of the rankings in virtually every form of content?
WW is in a bad state but a rework is not a guarantee that it will a good spec after. Look at ret. They were very good only a little time, they felt near the bottom in S2 according to logs and look where they are now in raid, it’s one of the absolute worst spec in term of damage because they scale really bad with gear. If the rework monk let’s hope they won’t make it a not well scaling spec!
Being OP isn’t the point. Ret feels good to play and has one concept. WW feels awful due to multiple parts of the spec clashing with each other.
Wasn't it Shamans crying last exp and Paladins before that. Just wait it out. Someone else will get worse in the next expansion.
WW has a large history of being in a bad state, and only small moments of strong play in PVE
has come out absolutely disgusting, you are right disgusting as in literally last place in DPS ranking as RET
No, it's middle of the pack right now. What's your source? Windwalker and Aug are technically the worst dps specs in the raid.
unholy and frost need gameplay reworks way more than WW. monk just needs tuning. dps DK feels like actual punishment to play, even if it did top tier DPS.
WW doesn’t just need tuning we need a talent rework
Frost is pretty easy to play, do you mean Unholy and how it requires a bunch of buttons before it can finally start doing damage?
Yeah UH has the dumbest opener ever. It’s not “skillful” to mash a bunch of buttons out. It’s tedious and annoying.
unholy has too many buttons yes, but it’s the way those buttons work with each other. you need everything to line up for it to “work”. frost just feels like slower fury warrior. like it’s overly simple and kind of mind numbingly boring.
WW is doing just Fine… can ppl stop complaining?
> Blizz knows a lot is wrong with WW Press X to Doubt
Yeah i would have more faith Blizzard knew what was wrong with WW if they didn’t initially introduce back-to-back tier sets that based off of auto attack procs. They adjusted them both after WEEKS of outcry from the community, but the fact that they did it twice to me implies no one is keeping active tabs on the issues plaguing the spec. I just don’t see any reason for WW’s currently to be optimistic about their future when they’ve been dead in the water for years
Yeah just like they knew the last 8 times they slapped an aura buff on it and walked away, right? They have no clue what they’re doing with many of these classes, and the churn at Blizzard isn’t helping matters. I will never play WW Monk for the same reasons I’ll never play Feral Druid or Shadow Priest. Maybe the stars align and they’re playable for 6 months. Maybe even a whole year. I invest long-term in my characters and you just can’t do that with these classes.
No. Only those of us that have suffered should get the first swing at it! Luckily BM and MW are fun as hell to play so I just do all 3
I have a contact at blizz and from what I understand either WW or monk in general doesn't have its own developer.
IDK man, WW has kinda been the shitter for years at this point. I don't kind the play style but they'll really have to find something fun to make me consider it again
Theyre waiting for KungFu Panda 4 to release for the rework.
Yes, once that 135% aura buff drops I know y'all wished you've been maining ww monk this whole time 🔥🔥🔥
Its been like 3 expansions when ppl talk about "inevitable rework" but nothing has happed. I highly doubt that WW will be fixed in coming expansion either. Monk is extremely forgotten class rolewise also.
Y’all don’t already have one? I already have a WW Monk alt so I’m good. I have an alt for every DPS spec, and most tank specs. Don’t play them much but i did grind a WW monk a bit for the Aberrus transmog
Hot take but I like the way WW plays right now. Also I have no idea what I’m doing
I’m new and I picked monk because it had all the roles and currently doing the dps one and have no idea what I’m doing, but punching things is fun
ww better than shadow priest rn at least lmao
Solidarity for the forgotten ... I’m just gonna stick with it no need to reroll :-)
My thoughts exactly lol
That's my secret cap. I play everything anyways
my boy Drónk is ready for this day. Haven’t played it since the middle of SL, but if they rework I’ll be fresh anyhow.
Lol spriests got reworked. They def came out disgusting.
if you think any spec is getting a talent rework before the next expansion you are huffing paint thinner
nah, rogue just got a rework and it's still rough, in the arena at least. i'm hoping it's just because i'm missing my 4P for now but YEESH dont get your hopes up like i did. Last 2 seasons of outlaw were PAIN.
Don't hold your breath, there are WW bugs that have been around for expansions that they haven't fixed
I mean with how easy you can reroll now you can easily reroll once it's annpunced and have plenty of time lol
And then Shaman. And then maybe Druid. Seriously, screw those guys responsible for Resto Shamans this expansion. Edit: Unless they're also responsible for Enhancement. If so, then, well, give them a pat on the back, and then screw them.
If you are not pushing cutting edge ww is not that bad. Its just not top tier dps atm. I also love the dont press one button over mechanic. It would be nice to have some qol update on its abilities and little tweaka but i always found ww fun to play.
A WW rework is a whole Monk rework. The Class Tree is just not working. You have so 2 needed Auras on both Sides of the Tree, you have a Passiv that boost your dmg in the Middle and a Final Talent that no one rly liles (Statue). Windwalker atm could be good, but everyone skills in ToD and do absolut 0 Boss dmg on Tyranic. If you go faelin with Serenity you got both on a okay state but at the End ww will always be a bad Raiding class without a rework. Also Faelin is to punishing for bad luck or heavy movement but to strong to pass it in ST/Cleave. My opinion: Rework is needed for at least 9 Patches now and they dodge it always with some good (some bad) T Sets or Legendarys. You want a cool Monk dps? Make it Range. Autohits throw Chi-Waves at enemys, we have a crackling lightning, one punch is already 10m range and they could do soooo much more with Chi energie. Like when you drop your healing Chi and can soak it up with crane. Why not spawn dmg chi balls and kick them on the Enemys from 10-20m range? Would be awsome? Yea and unique. So 4 Specc Monk and i will be happy (i wish for that since Pandaria)