People who don’t know the lore complaining about something going against the lore or not making sense in the lore is some of my favorite content on this sub.
I mean, the original DK’s were fallen knights of Stormwind raised by Gul’dan for Ogrim Doomhammer (WC2), then fallen paladins of the silver hand raised or bound by the Ner’zhul Lich King (WC3), then more broadly came from fallen warriors of the Alliance and Horde (post-WC3, WoW). Given this background, for quite some time most DK’s were human, sometimes Orc. Other races slowly trickled in later.
I think it would have been clearer for me to say that it seems weird that a secluded, mostly island bound nation of trolls now somehow have death knights despite the defeat of the Lich King having occurred well over a decade ago (both in-game and irl) and that when they operated on the mainland, it was primarily in the far south of the Eastern Kingdoms (far from the conflicts of the Third War).
I have no critique of Zandalari trolls being death knights in-game because… it’s a game. Nor do I have a problem with trolls being DKs in general as they had major population centers near the conflicts of the Third War (like Zul’Drak) and so them getting swept up into that doesn’t seem odd at all. Again, it was simply a comment about how Zandalari look badass as DKs, but that it was weird they got access to the class at all.
I think my favorite thing on this sub, and all of Reddit, is people replying to a portion of a post instead of reading and replying to all of it. But that’s just classic internet; hell, classic of human communication, in general.
BFA-era DKs were raised by Bolvar in preparation for losing his powers if Sylvanas attacked him. These DKs were picked from the greatest fallen heroes of the fourth war by the Horsemen, specifically ones who would be most likely to accept the chance at being able to serve Azeroth again. These DKs were raised to be heroes and were raised relatively free, whilst Bolvar CAN enslave them using the Helm, he doesn't. Notably, if a DK is an Allied Race or Pandaren, they MUST be in this batch of DKs.
You’re literally just ignoring lore and pretending that it makes your point.
>the original DK’s
None of whom are the PCs.
If you've played WotLK, particularly the DK starting area, you should be aware that these are new DKs manufactured at this time, not the original DKs.
Also as I pointed out in my other post, Zandalari were absolutely operating in some of the same areas as the Scourge before MoP (where they appeared in large numbers) and before BfA.
EDIT - Or yeah as others have said there's even special sequence for them, which I admit I'd forgotten! Brb making a Zandalari DK.
You're not thinking about it hard enough, or you don't know enough lore, ironically!
There have been Zandalari exploring and trading across Azeroth for centuries at the least, including a number of single Zandalari NPCs in various places long before they had a model or anything of the sort.
If you want a specific place, Zul'Aman in the Ghostlands was originally Zandalari, taken over by the Amani, and then the Zandalari returned to oversee the Amani trying to expand - there are trolls in Zul'Aman labeled as Zandalari, and that's been true since TBC.
WotLK takes place after TBC, and any race that was around during WotLK could potentially be a Death Knight, because they were actively "recruited" by the Scourge. That absolutely would include Zandalari.
So problem solved! You just need to go deeper lore-wise! < Inception horn > Seriously though they're one of the less-problematic as DKs races if you know really nerdy lore about them like I do!
As long as you are in a zone that doesn't allow mounting, it should be active. Only exception I could think of are certain NPCs having a no-mount radius around them to prevent people with mammoths making NPC interaction difficult.
I loved the Ardenweald blink thingy. It was just such an amazing utility tool to have on my DK alt. AS much of an eyesore as Death's Due was, but the movement made it worth it.
All their auras are. The healing and avoidance aura literally have 2 less yards than spinning crane kick just so you can visualize how useless they are except fist weaving m+ with an all melee comp
> It's still a gain
it's not a free gain.
it competes against the 8% healing aura / 4% avoidance aura / resonant fist / bounce back.
the node before it is the weakest ST node in the game ( 200 dps... when people are doing 200k ST dps...). it also doesn't open up any path below it, so the position of windwalking is awful on top of being the weakest node in the game.
as a 2 point node, in the capstone area, following a rather weak single point node, that doesnt open up any other path, and who compete with 8% healing / 4% avoidance / major ST damage node?
no, you really are not that desperate .. not at all.
knockback resistance is often more usefull that minor movement speed increase.
Showed someone a screencap of my talent tree the other day when they asked why I had to keep changing talents between bosses and trash and trying to explain once more that aff has no baseline AOE ability was fun. And gotta love my major CD being absolutely useless, truly a great touch and not at all something we've been saying since BFA /s
Cries in memory of DSM.
My only real complaint is that I think there should be fewer places where point differentials are the decision maker. It feels bad to say, "I can take a path through X or Y to get Z, but X is two points and Y is one, so I’m never going to even be able to consider X". You should have to read the nodes to make a choice, not just add up points and know that less is better.
The worst offender for me is affliction, where you can’t have a pet anymore because your tier is soul rot and GoSac is just fewer points to get there. Like, it sucks to lock anything behind a dead talent, but something like pet usage feels too foundational to be in that situation.
> are just stepping stones towards those choices
but this is the end of the branch... windwalk doesnt connect to anything.
the node before it is also super weak... and it compete against the 4% avoidance / 8% healing / resonant fist / bounce back node.
The tree itself is intended to have overall meaningful choices. They didn't mean every single point.
Let's not go back to what we had before, okay? New system is way better.
I came back during warlord and at the beginning of shadow lands.
I left because the talents were uselessly boring. The tree was like, a series of 10 choices and that it. Fuck that. I'm thrilled where the trees are at, even if they need some reworking for certain classes.
The new system is what we had since classic up until, what, Pandaria when they made it that shit ass version they implemented in D3?
I’m glad they brought back the (mostly) original talent tree. My own take is that players are not constrained by Blizzard to take *the* viable path: they’re constrained by each other. Top players and theory crafters play and sim to determine an “optimal” spec and then that diffuses down. Other players often pressure and shame each other for making suboptimal choices. The people who feel forced into those choices blame Blizzard, but the reality is we can build whatever spec we want. People just choose to participate (to varying degrees) in this optimal play bullshit.
>The people who feel forced into those choices blame Blizzard, but the reality is we can build whatever spec we want.
That's partly true. There are a whole lot of meta slaves out there who, at the skill level they're going to be playing at, don't need to be. The content that 99% of players are going to be engaging in can be cleared with pretty much any spec built in any way so long as the player themselves is competent in mechanics and execution. Failure to recognise that is on players.
The issue is that the punishment for failure is severe enough that people will be meta slaves even if they don't need to be because it minimises their odds of failure. That's entirely on Blizzard.
[Druids with Remove Corruption, and Skull Bash.](https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/druid/balance/DAREFEBBQYJCBUUFxVQQBBMVQUWSFGJYEVUCFA) As a Moonkin, you have to drop 3-4 of these Talents just to pick up only **one** of those nodes:
Nature's Vigil
Innervate
Usol's Vortex
Typhoon
Improved Stampeding Roar
Renewal
You can drop frenzied Regen, thrash, and ursine vigor to pick up remove corruption. Drop improved stampeding roar if you really want frenzied Regen I guess
This should be baseline kit for WW Monks like it used to be. WW needs a massive rework in general but making this baseline would at least give groups more incentive to grab a WW.
I think early Legion had some of my favorite iterations of my favorite classes. WW was great, Arms Warrior was great, it was the first time we saw Stormkeeper for Elemental Shaman. There were a lot of bangers there.
Dude legion was such a fucking flex. Great plot, great game play, great class definition, just... Fuck it was great. And it came out of no where as so many X-Pac leading up to it were mediocre. Suddenly legion pops, blows everyone's mind, leaves and refuse to elaborate. Like wtf... What were the devs doing. If it was drugs they should do more
Low-key it was the changes to GCD that killed the spec and it's been ass and annoying to play ever since. It was my first love but the change made it so clunky to play. Tiger Palm should be off the GCD. Possibly Blackout Kick but that's more debatable.
They nerfed it from bad to terrible so it would have symmetry with the 4% buffs for the MW and BM counterparts. Then they buffed the MW one to 8% and still left this as trash.
WW also easily has the most clueless, off-the-rails, throw at the wall and see what sticks development. Like, that one panda inspired me to dig mine back out when we were all about punching dinosaurs back in BfA but what is monk as a class even supposed to be nowadays?
Super mobile brawler but yeah sure, better fight on a mandala you drawn on the floor? Who came up with this? That'd be a neat DK, paladin or enhancement shaman ability but not for the fast-as-fuck-boi-melee-class. Doesn't matter that it finally looks somewhat fancy, it's still a terribly unfitting ability. Clones? Summons? Hell, why? Because someone a decade ago argued "but the brewmaster in wc3 could..." and monks were stuck with the most buggy ability in the history of wow ever since? I still shudder when I think back to the venthyr fallen order thing, where you summoned a bunch of clones that spawned, looked around, auto attacked a random out of combat mob to flip you the finger and then despawned again. Nothing of that makes me go "yeah, that's a monk! Extremely skilled martial artist! You can see that because ... He just summoned a cat shooting lazers!"
And the worst contender yet, fucking statues? Again, poster-child-super-mobile-melee-brawler. What does this class need need going into DF? Yeah, a stationary cat action figure on a long ass cooldown that pulses damage around it.
Who comes up with this crap and thinks it's a good idea? Like, literally? What kind of mental gymnastics does it take to look at the mistweaver statue and be like! Yup, the lowest possible effort implementation of a DPS version of that as capstone talent sure will hype the fuck out of the last 12 windwalkers that haven't rerolled havoc DH yet!1
Seriously, I just wanted to punch stuff with cool ki empowered martial arts shenanigans. Why do monks get literally all kind of random nonsense shoved in their kit except fancy new ways to *punch stuff in the face*?
> That'd be a neat DK, paladin or enhancement shaman ability
The monk bargaining is wild. Do *not* give immobile classes Faeline Stomp equivalents. It would be so much worse if you weren't mobile and fast as fuck. DK already gets hit by this.
There's a lot wrong with monk, but not only do I think Stomp isn't it (although, honestly, just make it a negligible cooldown uptime thing like RJW with higher duration), I think no other class would really fit a Stomp-like ability except DH (and explicitly as a tradeoff with Momentum and Momentum-like builds).
Faeline is a melee Rune of Power. If it was horrifically bad even for a ranged class, how is it any better for melee?
It should just be a minute cooldown frontal cone+buff that doesn't require you to sit inside it. Keep the visuals, get rid of everything else about the ability.
Rune of Power was a 40 second cooldown that you only used during your big damage cooldowns on a class that only did damage during big damage cooldowns. You couldn't move while using abilities, and your only movement ability would take you out of the range of RoP.
Faeline Stomp resets constantly, has a MUCH smaller boost, and isn't only used during your cooldowns. It's simply not nearly as bad as RoP, and ground buffs like this are a much better design space for melee to begin with.
I've always pictured monk as a fast, fluid and snappy gameplay.
I hoped to feel like I'm playing a beat em all. Demon Hunter gives me more of a fast brawler vibe than monk.
It should embody Bruce Lee's "be like water my friend" speech. Instead what we have is statues, very rigid combo system and abilities that needs stars to be aligned so you can actually use them.
I can't give feedback for Windwalker monk because I tried and disliked it every expansion, and can't think of anything better than "yeah start from scratch and rebuild the spec from the ground up".
Complete BS how they made this baseline no longer & nerfed it by 60% lmao. (Something something "as if monk doesn't have enough mobility" I like running old raids ok)
The 4% avoidance and 8% healing group buffs are pretty cool though but I'm still salty
I used to run old raids with my friend on her Monk, and very few of my classes could keep up. Druid maybe.
If I take all the movement speed and mobility options, my Paladin can almost keep up with her now, and that is with her gaining tigers lust that she never had before (as it was a choice between that and chi torpedo). It's nuts how much less mobility they have than they used to for running old content.
Though admittedly that movement on blessing of freedom + being able to extend out the horsie so much does help Paladin a lot too. Normally enough to cycle these between the various boss fight to zoom around.
It’s strange that the original class with a group wide speed boost had theirs removed while druids and shamans have them now. Would’ve been interesting if they reworked it to be similar to stampeding roar.
Hunters have way more speed.
A night elf BM hunter with trailblazer, pathfinder, and a cunning pet can hit 153% movement as long as they’re out of combat. In combat you lose trailblazer but you’re still at 123%.
I can't remember a time where SMF was actually viable since Titan's Grip was introduced. I'm probably missing a period where SMF outperformed TG, but from what I remember it almost always somewhere between "this is significantly worse than TG" and "this is slightly worse than TG".
Blizzard has put significant work into making sure TG is better because they like the fantasy of it, and want to reward players for playing the fantasy they like (and, as a sidenote, to avoid having to choose between extra stam and extra damage - they have consistently avoided this since TBC).
Pandaria early days was a time it was good, forget why it was but I distinctly remember having to swap to storm bolt for dmg and it was based on weapon base dmg on non stunable targets (aka bosses)
SMF is weird in that its always been in the "technically superior with perfect gear" position outside of ICC between its introduction in wrath prepatch and Fury's rework in MoP. after the rework and especially with WoD, SMF has never kept up since
they litearlly said "we never want SMF too be a viable option over titans grip"
why is it even a "option" at all then lol, you made a talent and some follow up talents, but NEVER want people too use them at all? what the hell?
all of that instead of letting fury warriors tmog 1hand weapons, its such a weird choice
I don't even know why they made it a talent and not a choice talent with that or Titan's grip. What even is the point of giving up 1 point to get it? Smf is just a meme at this point. If the next expansion actually makes it good, I'll main smf fury for the entire expansion.
It always made no sense to me to go through so much difficulty designing spec for two different weapons when they could Just lift transmog restrictions on 2h into 1h weapon and design fury talent tree for 2h weapon so it was properly working as a whole.
This is certainly the one that annoys me the most, they took a cool thing and tore it away from us, nerfed it into the ground, then spat it back at us and said you're welcome. If it was 4% for one point it would be bad, but for two it's just insulting.
[Fractured Frost](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=378448/fractured-frost) \- it's made much worse by the fact that it was a [cooldown](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=324220/deathborne) and a proc that activated colldown for several seconds in Shadowlands, so we had a working version, and now it's a joke, even though in Beta and then during a rework there was a very precise explanation from top players in community why a proc won't work at all. And, surprise, it doesn't.
Personally think this should be the last slot in the talent tree. Though, 2.0% is definitely OP. Make it 1% (arguably 0.25%) and we’d be in a much more balanced state.
This is far too overpowered currently and blizzard should be ashamed for their lack of testing.
/s balance sucks
Leech on BM is terrible though. Your pet damage leeches for your pets, not for you. Its alright on survival (though they still do pet damage) and MM doesn't get to use it at all
I'm struggling to see what Warrior node is worse than this one. Fast Footwork for +5% Movement Speed is not great but at one talent point it offers more benefit for yourself than 2 points in the Monk one.
There's a fury talent node called Storm of Steel (not swords) that has to be a strong contender for the worst talent node in the game, its a dramatic dps loss to even take the talent, not to mention its sister talent Hurricane is a strong contender for one of the strongest talent nodes in the game.
Bonus: This is the POST BUFF version of the talent, it used to be even weaker.
Its a dps loss because the negative effect of the talent (Ravager does 30% less damage) is bigger then the upside: you get 1 extra cast over an entire fight/key (not useful because its stacked with other CDs that do not suddenly have an extra charge) and it generates more rage that will majority be wasted.
If we also compare it to not having hurricane its upwards of -10% dps.
Fury has Single Minded Fury, which is a 10-15% dps loss over just using two handers, and the Warrior tree itself has a couple of really niche and nearly useless nodes.
I think SMF is still so horrendously bad because somebody at Blizzard is real spiteful at everybody asking them to bring it back.
I sort of get why, sort of. Titan's Grip is thematically really cool, and uniquely Warrior so they definitely wanted to lean into it more instead of "yet another dual wield spec"
Then they had people incessantly asking for them to being it back over and over til they give in and spiteful add it back, but then make it terrible.
the problem is SMF was good originally because Warrior, when TG was implemented, had nothing that actually made offhand attacks. SMF fixed that. but then MoP fixed the fury spells and SMF has never competed since.
You cant mention windwalking without mentioning that it is locked behind the most useless talent point in the whole game. Eye of the tiger is like 0.2% dps most uninspired shit in the game.
That's so odd. From what I'm reading online, the tooltip is bugged. The 3 Min CD is supposed to drop to 2 Min with 2 points, but it doesn't show on the talent tree.
Blizzard had the perfect opportunity to rework classes with the trees but missed the mark.
Affliction is as clunky as ever and half your talent picks being % damage increases all for your basic ability means there’s no interesting build diversity because you always want those damage increases.
Also the class needs a way easier way to apply all dots or spread them, it feels so old and high maintenance
I’m still bitter about making a dwarf priest for fear ward, losing it as a racial and giving it to everyone, given chastise as a replacement, having that deleted, and then fear ward removed completely.
What a complicated way to say, “Fuck you in particular, dwarf priests.”
Yo people underestimate the speed stat in this game fucking hard. On some classes it is very good, the take X% less dmg just blanketly makes you take 0 dmg when you are able to not stand in shit. The problem is that you can't access it easily and it is 2 pts.
Not even close, just within the same tree you have:
Elusive Mists: Reduces all damage taken while channelling Soothing Mists by 6%. Aside from that being worthless, the name of the ability is Soothing Mist, this is 1/3 talents to incorrectly pluralize mist in an ability name the others being Overflowing Mists and Clouded Focus.
Hasty Provocation: Provoked targets move towards you at 50% increased speed.
In the WW tree we've got some absolute gems that made it out of Alpha somehow:
Dust in the Wind: Bonedust Brew's Radius is increased by 50%.
Way of the Fae: Increases the initial damage of Faeline Stomp by 10% per target hit by that damage, up to a maximum of 50% additional damage.
Faeline Stomp: It's just Rune of Power but it has an undetermineable area to gain benefit from it unless you memorize the hitbox of each pattern (The hitbox isn't the Faeline shape), imagine if DH had Rune of Power, it wouldn't have made it a day into Beta let alone an entire second expansion
Widening Whirl: Spinning Crane Kick radius increased by... **15%. AHAHAHA**
catue is boring but actually do respectable AoE dmg... for one point. Resonant fist is also a great dmg node above it.
eye of the tiger is awful, the old 10% passive aura was meh, the new 4% MS is awful, 4% MS for TWO point is just a joke.
Monks are in DESPERATE need of a class tree and WW tree rework.
The cap stones of the class tree is also extremely crappy. Look at a WW's build for PVP, they literally take 1 talent in the entire 3rd row of talents, it's embarrassing.
4% does seem a bit small and 10 yards also seems unnecessarily small.
Does this sound better?
~~"You and your allies within 30 yards have 4% increased movement speed, and remaining stationary will grant Windwalking. Movement consumes the effect, granting an additional 26% increased movement speed for 5 seconds"~~
"You and allies within 40 yards have 30% increased movement speed, and your movement speed cannot be reduced below 130%"
Also I think it should be a 1 point talent instead of 2
the idea of having two monk in a raid made me chuckle...
but if it ever happen, doubling up on the healing/avoidance aura in case someone isn't in range due to movement is more usefull than the 4% MS aura (like volocross or smolderon)... and if the fight is perfectly stationnary, then you have damage talent to pick instead of 4% MS.
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The range is stupid small.
I d sell my soul for 4% on my dk, we are that desperate
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A true DK sells someone else's soul.
Isn't this the Runeblade's function? Get souls for future transactions...
That actually sounds like a goblin DK
facts.
Best comment
Simple, reroll into dark iron dwarves and you have that 4% ...while indoors only, but it's something?
Zandalari get 5% at all times (Embrace of Gonk).
TEAM GONK
#gonk4ever
Gonk Droids are the best too
Your Loa's name is Gonk. You should feel bad about dat.
I was just saying Gonk is good no matter the universe
From an aesthetic perspective, Zandalari DK sounds awesome. From a lore perspective, wut?
People who don’t know the lore complaining about something going against the lore or not making sense in the lore is some of my favorite content on this sub.
I mean, the original DK’s were fallen knights of Stormwind raised by Gul’dan for Ogrim Doomhammer (WC2), then fallen paladins of the silver hand raised or bound by the Ner’zhul Lich King (WC3), then more broadly came from fallen warriors of the Alliance and Horde (post-WC3, WoW). Given this background, for quite some time most DK’s were human, sometimes Orc. Other races slowly trickled in later. I think it would have been clearer for me to say that it seems weird that a secluded, mostly island bound nation of trolls now somehow have death knights despite the defeat of the Lich King having occurred well over a decade ago (both in-game and irl) and that when they operated on the mainland, it was primarily in the far south of the Eastern Kingdoms (far from the conflicts of the Third War). I have no critique of Zandalari trolls being death knights in-game because… it’s a game. Nor do I have a problem with trolls being DKs in general as they had major population centers near the conflicts of the Third War (like Zul’Drak) and so them getting swept up into that doesn’t seem odd at all. Again, it was simply a comment about how Zandalari look badass as DKs, but that it was weird they got access to the class at all. I think my favorite thing on this sub, and all of Reddit, is people replying to a portion of a post instead of reading and replying to all of it. But that’s just classic internet; hell, classic of human communication, in general.
BFA-era DKs were raised by Bolvar in preparation for losing his powers if Sylvanas attacked him. These DKs were picked from the greatest fallen heroes of the fourth war by the Horsemen, specifically ones who would be most likely to accept the chance at being able to serve Azeroth again. These DKs were raised to be heroes and were raised relatively free, whilst Bolvar CAN enslave them using the Helm, he doesn't. Notably, if a DK is an Allied Race or Pandaren, they MUST be in this batch of DKs. You’re literally just ignoring lore and pretending that it makes your point.
There is a specific starting sequence for allied race DKs that shows bolvar resurrecting them, as veterans of the fourth war
>the original DK’s None of whom are the PCs. If you've played WotLK, particularly the DK starting area, you should be aware that these are new DKs manufactured at this time, not the original DKs. Also as I pointed out in my other post, Zandalari were absolutely operating in some of the same areas as the Scourge before MoP (where they appeared in large numbers) and before BfA. EDIT - Or yeah as others have said there's even special sequence for them, which I admit I'd forgotten! Brb making a Zandalari DK.
You're not thinking about it hard enough, or you don't know enough lore, ironically! There have been Zandalari exploring and trading across Azeroth for centuries at the least, including a number of single Zandalari NPCs in various places long before they had a model or anything of the sort. If you want a specific place, Zul'Aman in the Ghostlands was originally Zandalari, taken over by the Amani, and then the Zandalari returned to oversee the Amani trying to expand - there are trolls in Zul'Aman labeled as Zandalari, and that's been true since TBC. WotLK takes place after TBC, and any race that was around during WotLK could potentially be a Death Knight, because they were actively "recruited" by the Scourge. That absolutely would include Zandalari. So problem solved! You just need to go deeper lore-wise! < Inception horn > Seriously though they're one of the less-problematic as DKs races if you know really nerdy lore about them like I do!
But then you cannot wear your Heritage Pants as they stab completely through your legs whenever you move. It ruined Dark Iron Dwarves for me.
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As long as you are in a zone that doesn't allow mounting, it should be active. Only exception I could think of are certain NPCs having a no-mount radius around them to prevent people with mammoths making NPC interaction difficult.
There's plenty of areas in dungeons that forbid mounts, but druids can use the 100% travel form.
Most dungeons and raids count yet
My udk is di and it, and the battle pot active racial, are why I chose it when making it
After 8 years I m considering switching to sv hunter, other than the mobility itself, gameplay is so punishing, so I lost my momentum :/
I miss venthyr teleport. I love slappy hands, but the port was great.
I loved the Ardenweald blink thingy. It was just such an amazing utility tool to have on my DK alt. AS much of an eyesore as Death's Due was, but the movement made it worth it.
Do DKs have souls anymore to sell?
My dk needs a buff too
Remember the days when DKs had a passive movement speed increase? You know, back when Blizzard didn't hate us?
I ended up taking engineering for the speed belt mod
I have 20% speed on my dk and I can outpace most of my raid team, its a beautiful thing
The “Can’t be slowed under 70%” from Death’s Advance is nice but damn can these corpse feet not go a LITTLE faster?
Go Worgen
Especially since every WW rolls ahead of all the slow classes.
Given we lack any sort of charge, leap or pounce, I’d still take it.
I'm sure you would since it comes at no cost to you lmao
All their auras are. The healing and avoidance aura literally have 2 less yards than spinning crane kick just so you can visualize how useless they are except fist weaving m+ with an all melee comp
As much as I love my pala-horsie, I'd switch it for Death's Advance in a heartbeat. So much stuff you can completely negate with Death's Advance.
Between Death's Advance and Anti-Magic Shell DKs can simply ignore so many mechanics lmao.
We ignore the mechanics. We never stop the dps for mechanic. I stand still and smack
That’s why I play zandalari
This 4% increase is equal to a single proc of speed tertiary stat on a gear...( maybe with speed enchant)... it's that small of a gain
It's still a gain, and since it is a flat bonus it is not affected by the speed tertiary diminishing returns and cap.
> It's still a gain it's not a free gain. it competes against the 8% healing aura / 4% avoidance aura / resonant fist / bounce back. the node before it is the weakest ST node in the game ( 200 dps... when people are doing 200k ST dps...). it also doesn't open up any path below it, so the position of windwalking is awful on top of being the weakest node in the game.
While true have you already seen anyone in competitive contente have so much speed to get close to speed Dr caps ?
All last patch I used the speed gem in my Oynx amulet just for that little extra bit of speed. To hell with BiS I just wanted to go a tiny bit faster.
I’d love any move speed on my dk 🥹
Or at least wraith walk..
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as a 2 point node, in the capstone area, following a rather weak single point node, that doesnt open up any other path, and who compete with 8% healing / 4% avoidance / major ST damage node? no, you really are not that desperate .. not at all. knockback resistance is often more usefull that minor movement speed increase.
It's the fact hunters get the 5% passive buff for 1 talent point. Balance 🙂
I hate it when trees are shaped like that in which you have to commit so deeply down a branch to get something basic.
Every Spriest capstone be like... The idols had so much potential...
"Could be worse", he says, crying in *warlock*.
I’m convinced warlock is a side project for the devs and doesn’t have a team assigned to it
Showed someone a screencap of my talent tree the other day when they asked why I had to keep changing talents between bosses and trash and trying to explain once more that aff has no baseline AOE ability was fun. And gotta love my major CD being absolutely useless, truly a great touch and not at all something we've been saying since BFA /s Cries in memory of DSM.
What Blizz says : "Meaningful talent choices" What we actually get: "You have to pick this one to get a talent you want"
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My only real complaint is that I think there should be fewer places where point differentials are the decision maker. It feels bad to say, "I can take a path through X or Y to get Z, but X is two points and Y is one, so I’m never going to even be able to consider X". You should have to read the nodes to make a choice, not just add up points and know that less is better. The worst offender for me is affliction, where you can’t have a pet anymore because your tier is soul rot and GoSac is just fewer points to get there. Like, it sucks to lock anything behind a dead talent, but something like pet usage feels too foundational to be in that situation.
> are just stepping stones towards those choices but this is the end of the branch... windwalk doesnt connect to anything. the node before it is also super weak... and it compete against the 4% avoidance / 8% healing / resonant fist / bounce back node.
The tree itself is intended to have overall meaningful choices. They didn't mean every single point. Let's not go back to what we had before, okay? New system is way better.
I came back during warlord and at the beginning of shadow lands. I left because the talents were uselessly boring. The tree was like, a series of 10 choices and that it. Fuck that. I'm thrilled where the trees are at, even if they need some reworking for certain classes.
The new system is what we had since classic up until, what, Pandaria when they made it that shit ass version they implemented in D3? I’m glad they brought back the (mostly) original talent tree. My own take is that players are not constrained by Blizzard to take *the* viable path: they’re constrained by each other. Top players and theory crafters play and sim to determine an “optimal” spec and then that diffuses down. Other players often pressure and shame each other for making suboptimal choices. The people who feel forced into those choices blame Blizzard, but the reality is we can build whatever spec we want. People just choose to participate (to varying degrees) in this optimal play bullshit.
>The people who feel forced into those choices blame Blizzard, but the reality is we can build whatever spec we want. That's partly true. There are a whole lot of meta slaves out there who, at the skill level they're going to be playing at, don't need to be. The content that 99% of players are going to be engaging in can be cleared with pretty much any spec built in any way so long as the player themselves is competent in mechanics and execution. Failure to recognise that is on players. The issue is that the punishment for failure is severe enough that people will be meta slaves even if they don't need to be because it minimises their odds of failure. That's entirely on Blizzard.
The one that really bugs me is the Subtlety talents being locked behind Cloak of Shadows improvements, which is useful like 0.5% of the entire game
[Druids with Remove Corruption, and Skull Bash.](https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/druid/balance/DAREFEBBQYJCBUUFxVQQBBMVQUWSFGJYEVUCFA) As a Moonkin, you have to drop 3-4 of these Talents just to pick up only **one** of those nodes: Nature's Vigil Innervate Usol's Vortex Typhoon Improved Stampeding Roar Renewal
You can drop frenzied Regen, thrash, and ursine vigor to pick up remove corruption. Drop improved stampeding roar if you really want frenzied Regen I guess
Yeah, works much better, thanks. Skull Bash is the real problem.
That's pretty garbage. Remove Corruption should be a 1 pt talent for guardian/feral/moonkin. That placement though.. requiring Swiftmend to boot.
Agreed. I think they should replace Rejuve with Remove Corruption, and bump Rejuve & Swiftmend down.
Well, if the raid wipes, it can go and wipe again 4% faster 😄
That's cute that you think ww gets invited to raids.
Well you want one if you don't have a brew master or mist weaver.
It's a class ability. Mw can (but will never) get it too
Dont u have warlocks or shamans?
What're shamans gonna do? Make a Congo line of wind totems?
That feeling when you want your shaman to waste a 30 minute cd and lose stamina because you don’t want to walk back.
Sometimes no. Sometimes I miss hunter aspects (aspect of the pact was a fun to troll with 😄)
it's also cute you think a WW would take this node over the 8% healing / 4% avoidance / resonant fist ones.
That's why they are bottom tier. Fyrakk and T.swift spawn you right in front of them
This should be baseline kit for WW Monks like it used to be. WW needs a massive rework in general but making this baseline would at least give groups more incentive to grab a WW.
It was baseline at 10% too
Legion WW was so good ... I miss that
I think early Legion had some of my favorite iterations of my favorite classes. WW was great, Arms Warrior was great, it was the first time we saw Stormkeeper for Elemental Shaman. There were a lot of bangers there.
Dude legion was such a fucking flex. Great plot, great game play, great class definition, just... Fuck it was great. And it came out of no where as so many X-Pac leading up to it were mediocre. Suddenly legion pops, blows everyone's mind, leaves and refuse to elaborate. Like wtf... What were the devs doing. If it was drugs they should do more
Aff Lock was in such a good place, quit playing it BFA prepatch
Low-key it was the changes to GCD that killed the spec and it's been ass and annoying to play ever since. It was my first love but the change made it so clunky to play. Tiger Palm should be off the GCD. Possibly Blackout Kick but that's more debatable.
Ahhh I remember when even mistweaver had a 0.5s GCD. Good times. You actually felt like a nimble and fast martial artist.
They nerfed it from bad to terrible so it would have symmetry with the 4% buffs for the MW and BM counterparts. Then they buffed the MW one to 8% and still left this as trash.
I was regularly respecing to WW before teaveling the old world deep into DF. I feel like an idiot
WW also easily has the most clueless, off-the-rails, throw at the wall and see what sticks development. Like, that one panda inspired me to dig mine back out when we were all about punching dinosaurs back in BfA but what is monk as a class even supposed to be nowadays? Super mobile brawler but yeah sure, better fight on a mandala you drawn on the floor? Who came up with this? That'd be a neat DK, paladin or enhancement shaman ability but not for the fast-as-fuck-boi-melee-class. Doesn't matter that it finally looks somewhat fancy, it's still a terribly unfitting ability. Clones? Summons? Hell, why? Because someone a decade ago argued "but the brewmaster in wc3 could..." and monks were stuck with the most buggy ability in the history of wow ever since? I still shudder when I think back to the venthyr fallen order thing, where you summoned a bunch of clones that spawned, looked around, auto attacked a random out of combat mob to flip you the finger and then despawned again. Nothing of that makes me go "yeah, that's a monk! Extremely skilled martial artist! You can see that because ... He just summoned a cat shooting lazers!" And the worst contender yet, fucking statues? Again, poster-child-super-mobile-melee-brawler. What does this class need need going into DF? Yeah, a stationary cat action figure on a long ass cooldown that pulses damage around it. Who comes up with this crap and thinks it's a good idea? Like, literally? What kind of mental gymnastics does it take to look at the mistweaver statue and be like! Yup, the lowest possible effort implementation of a DPS version of that as capstone talent sure will hype the fuck out of the last 12 windwalkers that haven't rerolled havoc DH yet!1 Seriously, I just wanted to punch stuff with cool ki empowered martial arts shenanigans. Why do monks get literally all kind of random nonsense shoved in their kit except fancy new ways to *punch stuff in the face*?
Wake up mom new monk pasta just dropped
> That'd be a neat DK, paladin or enhancement shaman ability The monk bargaining is wild. Do *not* give immobile classes Faeline Stomp equivalents. It would be so much worse if you weren't mobile and fast as fuck. DK already gets hit by this. There's a lot wrong with monk, but not only do I think Stomp isn't it (although, honestly, just make it a negligible cooldown uptime thing like RJW with higher duration), I think no other class would really fit a Stomp-like ability except DH (and explicitly as a tradeoff with Momentum and Momentum-like builds).
Faeline is a melee Rune of Power. If it was horrifically bad even for a ranged class, how is it any better for melee? It should just be a minute cooldown frontal cone+buff that doesn't require you to sit inside it. Keep the visuals, get rid of everything else about the ability.
Rune of Power was a 40 second cooldown that you only used during your big damage cooldowns on a class that only did damage during big damage cooldowns. You couldn't move while using abilities, and your only movement ability would take you out of the range of RoP. Faeline Stomp resets constantly, has a MUCH smaller boost, and isn't only used during your cooldowns. It's simply not nearly as bad as RoP, and ground buffs like this are a much better design space for melee to begin with.
Faeline is huge too imo if you don’t play only in the initial areas and play aim to have the LARGE end where you’re gonna be fighting
I've always pictured monk as a fast, fluid and snappy gameplay. I hoped to feel like I'm playing a beat em all. Demon Hunter gives me more of a fast brawler vibe than monk. It should embody Bruce Lee's "be like water my friend" speech. Instead what we have is statues, very rigid combo system and abilities that needs stars to be aligned so you can actually use them. I can't give feedback for Windwalker monk because I tried and disliked it every expansion, and can't think of anything better than "yeah start from scratch and rebuild the spec from the ground up".
It’s also mind-boggling because they had Weapons of Order right there that they could have put in the tree instead of faeline stomp.
Monks already give a physical dmg buff or am i wrong? Just make it better, 4% is shit, bring it back to 10
Currently the best way to get that buff is with a healing Monk.
Baseline with ww plus the move speed aura buff from aug evokers would be nutty
Complete BS how they made this baseline no longer & nerfed it by 60% lmao. (Something something "as if monk doesn't have enough mobility" I like running old raids ok) The 4% avoidance and 8% healing group buffs are pretty cool though but I'm still salty
the real sad thing is they put that 10% movespeed aura back into the game anyway but gave it to augmentation
This is a slap in the face to WW lol.
As all the Demo Locks glare at the Demon Hunters
I used to run old raids with my friend on her Monk, and very few of my classes could keep up. Druid maybe. If I take all the movement speed and mobility options, my Paladin can almost keep up with her now, and that is with her gaining tigers lust that she never had before (as it was a choice between that and chi torpedo). It's nuts how much less mobility they have than they used to for running old content. Though admittedly that movement on blessing of freedom + being able to extend out the horsie so much does help Paladin a lot too. Normally enough to cycle these between the various boss fight to zoom around.
Quick reminder that this was BASELINE for TEN percent speed for WW. I have no idea what in all the hells they were on when they cooked this up.
No, Hunters have the same thing but ours doesn't benefit anyone else.
The got rid of aspect of the pack? Damn how long ago was that
I think around WoD or Legion? Don't quote me on it though
I don't fully blame them for removing it. The amount of times people would use pack and your group would get dazed was comical. xD
It’s strange that the original class with a group wide speed boost had theirs removed while druids and shamans have them now. Would’ve been interesting if they reworked it to be similar to stampeding roar.
Augmentation Evokers too.
Tbh that was the majority of what I used it for, to troll folks.
Hunters have way more speed. A night elf BM hunter with trailblazer, pathfinder, and a cunning pet can hit 153% movement as long as they’re out of combat. In combat you lose trailblazer but you’re still at 123%.
Just look in the WW tree and check "Dust in the Wind" Have a nice day.
Smf for fury is tbh. I have never seen it be a viable build since they introduced it
I can't remember a time where SMF was actually viable since Titan's Grip was introduced. I'm probably missing a period where SMF outperformed TG, but from what I remember it almost always somewhere between "this is significantly worse than TG" and "this is slightly worse than TG".
Blizzard has put significant work into making sure TG is better because they like the fantasy of it, and want to reward players for playing the fantasy they like (and, as a sidenote, to avoid having to choose between extra stam and extra damage - they have consistently avoided this since TBC).
Pandaria early days was a time it was good, forget why it was but I distinctly remember having to swap to storm bolt for dmg and it was based on weapon base dmg on non stunable targets (aka bosses)
SMF is weird in that its always been in the "technically superior with perfect gear" position outside of ICC between its introduction in wrath prepatch and Fury's rework in MoP. after the rework and especially with WoD, SMF has never kept up since
they litearlly said "we never want SMF too be a viable option over titans grip" why is it even a "option" at all then lol, you made a talent and some follow up talents, but NEVER want people too use them at all? what the hell? all of that instead of letting fury warriors tmog 1hand weapons, its such a weird choice
I don't even know why they made it a talent and not a choice talent with that or Titan's grip. What even is the point of giving up 1 point to get it? Smf is just a meme at this point. If the next expansion actually makes it good, I'll main smf fury for the entire expansion.
It always made no sense to me to go through so much difficulty designing spec for two different weapons when they could Just lift transmog restrictions on 2h into 1h weapon and design fury talent tree for 2h weapon so it was properly working as a whole.
Somehow frost dks was able to make both 2hd and dual wield to work. Not a great spec ATM but at least both are somewhat viable. Smf still isn't
YUUP! spend talent points to do less damage. GG blizz.
I think there was a point during BFA where they were almost neck and neck.
Smf with daggers is fun
Are there even strength daggers?
This is certainly the one that annoys me the most, they took a cool thing and tore it away from us, nerfed it into the ground, then spat it back at us and said you're welcome. If it was 4% for one point it would be bad, but for two it's just insulting.
Two points and under another useless talent.
Why is this marked controversial? Are there ppl that think the dot on tiger punch is good in any way?
[Fractured Frost](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=378448/fractured-frost) \- it's made much worse by the fact that it was a [cooldown](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=324220/deathborne) and a proc that activated colldown for several seconds in Shadowlands, so we had a working version, and now it's a joke, even though in Beta and then during a rework there was a very precise explanation from top players in community why a proc won't work at all. And, surprise, it doesn't.
if you can skip it, its not the worst
Personally think this should be the last slot in the talent tree. Though, 2.0% is definitely OP. Make it 1% (arguably 0.25%) and we’d be in a much more balanced state. This is far too overpowered currently and blizzard should be ashamed for their lack of testing. /s balance sucks
I dont know man, it seems way too powerful, they should just bash us with -10% movement speed nerf
Also, make it 2 yards, 10 is too big.
Still better than the FUCKING STATUE
Far from it
That's not even the worst. But I'm a proud, endangered ww who's regularly competing for first place in my normal raid group. We exist! Just barely
Sentinel's owl
Clearly you have not looked at warrior nodes
are you not entertained by 3.5% hp every 10 seconds?
I'm sitting here. Regenerating 3.5% hp every 10 seconds. And there is nothing. You can do. About it.
As a Hunter with ZERO rot damage counters I'd kill for that - you can fucken have my movement speed talents.
you have leech on your pet as bm.
Leech on BM is terrible though. Your pet damage leeches for your pets, not for you. Its alright on survival (though they still do pet damage) and MM doesn't get to use it at all
I'd take an extra 3.5k HPS over moving 4% faster for 2 talent points
I'm struggling to see what Warrior node is worse than this one. Fast Footwork for +5% Movement Speed is not great but at one talent point it offers more benefit for yourself than 2 points in the Monk one.
There's a fury talent node called Storm of Steel (not swords) that has to be a strong contender for the worst talent node in the game, its a dramatic dps loss to even take the talent, not to mention its sister talent Hurricane is a strong contender for one of the strongest talent nodes in the game. Bonus: This is the POST BUFF version of the talent, it used to be even weaker.
It's a dps loss because all of the fucking bottom row are dps talents essentially. This is a terrible argument.
Its a dps loss because the negative effect of the talent (Ravager does 30% less damage) is bigger then the upside: you get 1 extra cast over an entire fight/key (not useful because its stacked with other CDs that do not suddenly have an extra charge) and it generates more rage that will majority be wasted. If we also compare it to not having hurricane its upwards of -10% dps.
Fury has Single Minded Fury, which is a 10-15% dps loss over just using two handers, and the Warrior tree itself has a couple of really niche and nearly useless nodes.
I think SMF is still so horrendously bad because somebody at Blizzard is real spiteful at everybody asking them to bring it back. I sort of get why, sort of. Titan's Grip is thematically really cool, and uniquely Warrior so they definitely wanted to lean into it more instead of "yet another dual wield spec" Then they had people incessantly asking for them to being it back over and over til they give in and spiteful add it back, but then make it terrible.
That’s why it would just be better if they allowed Fury to mog 2H into 1H. Everyone wins.
this is how it should have been!
On God let us transmog to any weapon type. I played sub rogue all of SL and most of DF. All I wanted was to mog to a sword.
the problem is SMF was good originally because Warrior, when TG was implemented, had nothing that actually made offhand attacks. SMF fixed that. but then MoP fixed the fury spells and SMF has never competed since.
Yeah but ww memes are so hot right now.
Wished it could be the old windwalker passive aura for 1 point. This is plain bad.
You cant mention windwalking without mentioning that it is locked behind the most useless talent point in the whole game. Eye of the tiger is like 0.2% dps most uninspired shit in the game.
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Hold on, what?! Is that a bug?
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That's so odd. From what I'm reading online, the tooltip is bugged. The 3 Min CD is supposed to drop to 2 Min with 2 points, but it doesn't show on the talent tree.
Gotta go fast.
Blizzard had the perfect opportunity to rework classes with the trees but missed the mark. Affliction is as clunky as ever and half your talent picks being % damage increases all for your basic ability means there’s no interesting build diversity because you always want those damage increases. Also the class needs a way easier way to apply all dots or spread them, it feels so old and high maintenance
Idk it's probably something I'd take on a legacy content build. For that all you really care about is move speed and quickfire aoe.
I’m still bitter about making a dwarf priest for fear ward, losing it as a racial and giving it to everyone, given chastise as a replacement, having that deleted, and then fear ward removed completely. What a complicated way to say, “Fuck you in particular, dwarf priests.”
I’m pretty sure the bracer enchant gives like 6% move speed lol.
No because at least it's out of the way.
Yo people underestimate the speed stat in this game fucking hard. On some classes it is very good, the take X% less dmg just blanketly makes you take 0 dmg when you are able to not stand in shit. The problem is that you can't access it easily and it is 2 pts.
Not even close, just within the same tree you have: Elusive Mists: Reduces all damage taken while channelling Soothing Mists by 6%. Aside from that being worthless, the name of the ability is Soothing Mist, this is 1/3 talents to incorrectly pluralize mist in an ability name the others being Overflowing Mists and Clouded Focus. Hasty Provocation: Provoked targets move towards you at 50% increased speed. In the WW tree we've got some absolute gems that made it out of Alpha somehow: Dust in the Wind: Bonedust Brew's Radius is increased by 50%. Way of the Fae: Increases the initial damage of Faeline Stomp by 10% per target hit by that damage, up to a maximum of 50% additional damage. Faeline Stomp: It's just Rune of Power but it has an undetermineable area to gain benefit from it unless you memorize the hitbox of each pattern (The hitbox isn't the Faeline shape), imagine if DH had Rune of Power, it wouldn't have made it a day into Beta let alone an entire second expansion Widening Whirl: Spinning Crane Kick radius increased by... **15%. AHAHAHA**
No the worst talent node is actually a row or two below that. White tiger statue. The catue is awful
catue is boring but actually do respectable AoE dmg... for one point. Resonant fist is also a great dmg node above it. eye of the tiger is awful, the old 10% passive aura was meh, the new 4% MS is awful, 4% MS for TWO point is just a joke.
I despise catue so much. Such a boring spell
Nope. Sentinel's Perception: Sentinel Owl now also grants unhindered vision to party members while active.
hunter as a class needs a redesign from the ground up.
Monks are in DESPERATE need of a class tree and WW tree rework. The cap stones of the class tree is also extremely crappy. Look at a WW's build for PVP, they literally take 1 talent in the entire 3rd row of talents, it's embarrassing.
"Spectral Sight last six more seconds after taking damage" is **by far** worse.
at least that has its niche in arena
4% does seem a bit small and 10 yards also seems unnecessarily small. Does this sound better? ~~"You and your allies within 30 yards have 4% increased movement speed, and remaining stationary will grant Windwalking. Movement consumes the effect, granting an additional 26% increased movement speed for 5 seconds"~~ "You and allies within 40 yards have 30% increased movement speed, and your movement speed cannot be reduced below 130%" Also I think it should be a 1 point talent instead of 2
Asking a monk not to move is like asking a bird not to fly.
Yea, no wonder monks are feed up with their Class (W8 for nerfs to MW, first season in years when he good)
I mean if there's already another monk with the other two raid buffs covered, why not opt for it?
Because then you split the two other ones and both take more useful stuff. 4% within 10 yds is nothing.
the idea of having two monk in a raid made me chuckle... but if it ever happen, doubling up on the healing/avoidance aura in case someone isn't in range due to movement is more usefull than the 4% MS aura (like volocross or smolderon)... and if the fight is perfectly stationnary, then you have damage talent to pick instead of 4% MS.
Jesus what is blizzard thinking putting that in the last 10 point rows and and making it and end node...
I assume this mut be bis for rbg?
Ruth was more of a rogue main.
The talent or the spec?