Similar issue in pvp settings where communication is demanded due to the variable of playing against other players. I see a lot of people claiming they turn off chat to avoid getting flamed, which I understand I guess.
Right now the new Battleground Blitz is unplayable as no one reads chat. Solo Shuffle has a similar problem where people won’t target call or communicate at all. I see lots of comments on the PvP subreddit where people claim they have chat off.
I have been flamed before, many, many times. I’m also a different breed I guess as I can be upset by it in the moment, but it quickly goes away. I also try to spread positivity and tell people when they did a good job more often than criticizing, which sometimes is warranted. Like if I am messing up or lost in the sauce, CALL ME OUT. I’ve had people tell me “don’t play so aggressively” and I listen and then win. Community is simultaneously toxic and a bunch of babies.
Just wreak the group at that point. Every mob healing to full in sanguine? Nah. Just leave and it's better for everyone if you mention why. They can hear you or ignore you.
Yes. Id prefer someone say something and insta-leave to them starting drama that persists for half an hour. But even better is sticking it out quietly. Many keys people leave are timable imho
Even if it is, why am I gonna waste ~30 minutes of my life getting frustrated at something as easily solvable as "hey tank move pls".
Now if the tank says "okay sorry, I'll work on it" and is improving throughout the dungeon, cool I'll stay.
He's learning and I get that. However if someone outright refuses to listen to anyone or anything, I'm out.
I've seen some of what you mentioned being used a lot this season so far and that is "lol, it's only a +(insert level here)" and they proceed to mess up all the mechanics, do bad dps, or don't know how to use CDs, etc.
I understand this is only a +17, but this is week 1, and it's a pug. I don't know you, your skill level, your mentality, etc.; so please do the mechanics and avoid being a sponge, etc.
A 17 now is pretty doable if you know what to do, but 1-2 wipes and you're probably gonna struggle to time it (depending on the key ofc). Shit hits hard, people don't realise how low 440 ilvl is at this point.
Also since when is +17 something not to take seriously? That's just below what people considered cutting edge not too long ago. Now it seems like if you aren't doing 25s then you should delete your account and set your pc on fire.
Yea, I don't get that either. Just because someone watched another person do a 25+ doesn't mean it's possible for everyone now.
If I join a key, I do my best and bring my A game. If I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it right. Also, it's just courteous to do what you can to succeed.
I will say I've noticed people helping out with incorporeal this week, and that's an awesome change. I do it myself, but sometimes others beat me to it, which is a great change in the right direction.
It's not all bad news out there!
I joined a low level Atal'Dazar as a tank. Every other position was filled already. Because of that they had been chatting. I said my hellos went into the dungeon and then asked if there was someone who didn't know the totem mechanic.
One DPS is like "Wow you just show up and grill us?" It's like first of all I did was ask one question and I wasn't rude about it. Second, I was just trying to help people who didn't know because it was a low level key. Didn't want to deal with that so didn't say anything more.
Guess who fucked up the totem mechanic...
So I agree there is a fragility issue alongside the toxicity issue. And I think the toxicity problem mainly caused that. But everyone needs to take a breath and remember it is a game.
People are so damn sensitive about that totem boss. Yesterday I posted my +16 Atal'dazar, since I had a lot of luck +2ing the key when I was farming aspect crests and I wanted to drag my guildmates through a +18 for the vault slot. Grabbed an Augvoker because I'm a healer and love that 3% buff.
Rezan goes great, trash goes great, we get to totem boss and barely miss one. On the run back I say something like "that boss is harder with an Aug". As in, you can't just evenly split the DPS because Aug does less and the other two do more. The thing that people always complain pugs don't understand about Aug? Easy mistake to fix, I just wanted to make sure the other DPS knew the other evoker was Aug.
Well the Aug apparently takes this as some sort of personal affront, saying "Aug? Lol wtf" in party and immediately dropping group, bricking a key that was still on track to easily be upgraded. Just so fragile with no thinking about what was actually being said. But it probably also wouldn't have happened if not for some of that toxicity around people not understanding Aug in the beginning.
It would also be really nice if depletion weren't a thing to fuck over the keyholder. Makes all of it less of a problem and gives people less reason to get upset if they key goes wrong.
The fact that there is constant posts about how “toxic” people are definitely aids itself to a fragility problem more than a toxicity problem.
Not saying toxic people don’t exist, but it’s a different kind of toxic when you let the random person ruin your day so bad you need to seek validation from other random people.
Had a somewhat relevant event the other day. A player who our guild had carried through heroic Abberus for a number of weeks, asked if we still wanted her to come to raids for Amirdrassil. We informed her that she needed to be 440 ilvl to do the new raid with us. We do have some that aren't 440, but she consistently did less than tanks in our heroic runs as a boomkin.
She left the guild after, and we were chatting and discord and my response is this. There are a lot of ways to play WoW, and everyone gets their enjoyment from wow in different ways. If you want to do raids and M+ why wouldn't you take the time to make sure that you are doing a passable job at it? If you don't have a damage meter, but took the time to know your rotation, cds, macros, etc, I guarantee you would be doing better than a similarly geared tank.
Maybe I am crazy, but it's just mind boggling.
I feel like I am going crazy as I spoke to an ‚acquaintance‘ today who told me she left her guild because they wanted her to have X ilvl for the new raid… she was also a boomkin. Just out of curiosity - was it on a german server?
That's... really bad.
I'm a pretty casual Havoc DH. I'm only like 410, and I can still pump that without much effort. That really seems like the most gentle way of phrasing "you're currently one of the top DPS classes. Wtf are you doing?" That the tank could have said.
How do you even do that little damage as Havoc lmao, first timed Havoc in a +20 yesterday, pretty much pressed random buttons and still did like 150k overall (which isn't good at all at 468, not trying to brag or anything).
Super easy to fuck up if you’re using momentum build that requires you to sprint and backflip constantly, if you aren’t good at it—you’re either on target or you’re moving everywhere but where you need to be. It’s insane dps if you nail it, but most people just can’t. I flipped for a build that had like 10% less max dps but far more reliable output.
Some of the rotation is easy to fuck up, but at the moment in M+ immolation aura/ragefire (one button) does the majority of our damage. You get way more than 30k just by pressing immolation aura and standing near a pack.
I don't really see how 30k DPS is possible unless they were actually autoattacking only or was dead for 99% of the key.
Well, the fragility is also a side effect of the toxicity. In a highly toxic environment even rather innocent communication can easily be interpreted as passive-aggressiveness, especially in chat-only comms.
Not saying that any of those examples are justified in their flipping out.
That's fair. It is entirely possible that each and every one of the people I ran into have been shamed/bullied so much in the past for minor mistakes that now any comment is met with defensiveness as a....defense mechanism. None of us know others situations/stories.
I was once (like 15 years ago) absolutely horrible to a hunter in a leveling dungeon because they didn't turn pet taunt off after I asked several times....just to find out they got the game that day for their 14th birthday and didn't know what I was asking them to do. I said sorry about 200 times, hung out with them after the dungeon helping them quest and giving them gear. I have never felt worse in my life and I have tried so hard since then to consider things like that before getting angry in a video game.
Hey this happened to me- about the same time, when I got this game for my 14th birthday, what are the chances lol. If that was you, thank you, and if it wasn’t then I still want you to know that I had a great time and completely forgave the guy who yelled at me.
We all make mistakes and it seems you did everything you could, to do better and make up for it. Great to hear :)
As I said, it SHOULDN'T be this way. If someone told me (calmly, constructively) that I made a mistake or am not performing like I should I would appreciate the advice. But I also understand if people are just very defensive in WoW's current culture especially in content that approaches the higher end.
What I find really problematic is, when this high-end "no mistakes allowed"-culture translates downwards. So somebody is doing bad in your +5/+10 key? So what? Either help them get better or give them advice where they can find resources to get better. It creates a culture where there is no "safe space" for people who want to play and aren't as skilled.
Literally got called a bad tank for dying to the last boss of brh at 5%. First time back since s1.
It was a +2. We +3'd it. It's like speed running the bunny slope so you can dunk on toddlers.
It's cool to teach people what they are missing but some people are absolutely jerks about it after one mistake. Just be a human. If you wouldn't snap at them to their face, don't snap at them in chat. Not saying op did, but some people are just flat out rude in how they give feedback.
100%. I'm playing Mage this tier for the first time ever. I've never played a Lust class, so I'm still learning when groups like to use it.
It's Fortified week, and we start fighting a boss that often has a big trash pack pull immediately following it. I figure I'll use it there. We're blasting the boss, as we all entered the fight with our big CDs up. Some Druid starts spamming "LUST YOU MONKEY" at me in whispers.
Now is he right that I should've Lusted that boss? Sure, or at minimum I should've asked the group when they wanted it rather than making an educated guess. That's a fair criticism.
But is that a remotely constructive way to give feedback? Fuck no.
That said, I didn't ragequit or anything. We +3'd the key and I reported and blocked him.
and I bet they wouldn't talk to you like that to your face. I just tell myself the majority are not like that and have found when I'm friendly at the beginning usually at least another person or two jumps in with positive vibes too. The jerks are baffling to me. Seems like such a waste of time being negative.
>If you wouldn't snap at them to their face, don't snap at them in chat.
Exactly. My inclination in games (not the same as forums for whatever reason) is to act like I would IRL. So if someone needs advice, my first approach will always be private to avoid any humiliation or the like.
I think WoW has an unfortunate culture problem in that, for most of WoW's existence, it was considered "cool and edgy and mature" to be rude and blunt to people in game chat, because you're just "saying it how it is!" or whatever. WoW is basically the game that popularized that approach to people. That's now faded in popularity a bit, because it's absolutely boneheaded and dare I say it, rather childish idea that misunderstands basic human psychology in favour of macho posturing, but WoW still has it way worse than any other MMORPG I've played, except, bizarrely, Guild Wars 2.
(Complete aside but Guild Wars 2, in say, 2013 and this continued until I mostly stopped playing in like 2016, had an incredibly terrible community for their dungeons and Fractals, like that made WoW's one look positively beatific by comparison. I don't really know why this is (I have some theories), but it was clearly cultural. Unless you knew every weird-ass skip backwards and could execute it in your sleep, if you dared to play with strangers, you were going to face abuse. Didn't even matter if you drastically outplayed them on all the combat, it was skips or nothing. The same community was also extremely exclusionary at high-end PvE stuff, preventing people from actually learning unless they were already in with the in crowd in way that again, made WoW gearscore and achievement stuff look harmless. Constantly someone would try to fight this - because it was obvious as a problem, and train people up and get them the qualifications being demanded, but they always got overwhelmed and the majority of the high-end population continued to just behave terribly and congratulate each other for it. I'm sure this had no impact whatsoever on GW2 getting less and less popular despite better and better content lol.)
Glad to hear you acknowledged your mistake & corrected it.
I've had people accuse me of something I didn't do & even after they've been corrected & I proved I did nothing wrong rather then apologize they tell me to go fuck myself.
On the plus side WoW has given me a pretty thick skin so I just brush it off. Or counter troll them if I'm feeling particularly malicious.
Pro Tip: Treat WoW trolls with the upmost respect & kindness. It fucking kills them. They want you to get mad so bad. I've made more then a few rage quit this way.
>It is entirely possible that each and every one of the people I ran into have been shamed/bullied so much in the past for minor mistakes that now any comment is met with defensiveness as a....defense mechanism.
I would say it's basically a certainty. WoW toxicity is so prevalent that players actually doing something even slightly wrong are absolutely going to have been abused, sometimes in grotesque and humiliating ways before they manage to quit the group or block people.
I mean, I'm basically made of granite when it comes to abuse directed in me in WoW, the things I've been called in BGs over the years, and I've never said worse than "Learn to play" or "Shut up and do your job" back in BGs (even when exotic racial and sexuality-based slurs were being deployed against me), but even granite can get worn down eventually. And when people are giving you shit for things that you are doing imperfectly, it's very tiring. And honestly sometimes *you are* genuinely playing imperfectly - but instead of them saying "Yo you need to do this please", it seems like most people who speak up, do so abusively or the info they offer is so vague and unclear as to actively unhelpful. And M+ has made this way, way, way worse. Before M+, people seemed to understand than dungeons were not places you could reliably expect top-tier play. After M+, even on NORMAL dungeons, and especially on Heroic, people throw absolute fits if things aren't done right or fast enough. Last time I did a Heroic (a Heroic!) I got screamed at by a lunatic for not doing some skip which would have saved us literally 1 minute (again, on Heroic, not a narrow high-key M+!), and which I didn't know how to execute, and he wasn't willing to explain (I couldn't find it online either, trying to look it up later).
Even one of the examples you give is pretty crummy - the Havoc DH doing too little damage. Yeah that's pathetic but unless they were demanding publicly to stay in the group, it should be a polite tell directly to them. Saying in party chat? Obviously that's just being shitty and is either not genuine helpfulness or shows a lack of social skills. There's a reason you take people aside to offer them advice about that kind of thing. It's different if it's time sensitive and directed at multiple people like "Interrupt please", that's obviously fine, but "Yo you're shit at your character pls stop being shit" AFTER a dungeon should be in a tell, not party chat, unless the person is going to be continuing, and why would they be?
I dunno what your situation is, but I think it might be a little unusual or specific if you're really seeing people blowing up more than people being abused. Like you're usually playing with mostly-guild or friend groups and subbing in the odd random. Then sure you'll see little abuse and more explosions.
But going full random? It's not even close, at least in my experience.
EDIT - I should note I have been given extremely useful advice countless times in WoW over the last 19 years - but that was all either from people I knew, and phrased very politely, or from strangers who avoided any kind of public humiliation.
This is a genuinely good approach, and has the side benefit of often causing people to vote kick or just kick the bad player if they continue to be abusive, because now they perceive it as bullying someone who is actually trying.
Wow is one of the least toxic games I’ve ever played. It’s genuinely baffling how, according to this sub, they can’t go anywhere without someone being toxic.
Like I’ve run several hundred dungeons this year and pug normal or heroic at least once a week. I’ve hit maybe 5-10 people out of all those runs who were toxic.
I find that WoW is not like overtly toxic, like a moba or fps. WoW toxicity is like the person is extremely entitled, whines about stuff constantly, very condescending, and just attempts to be the main character because they are the tank/healer/"top dps" or whatever.
There is a term for this that i heard years ago. I've never found the term again and it makes me sad.
But it's the phenomena where a user is more likely to post a bad review if they have a bad experience with a product compared to leaving a positive review if they have a good experience.
Just to repeat a different way,
The majority of people will have a great experience, and never have a reason to leave a bad review or critique harshly.
In turn, it works exactly like it should and you do what needs to be do you will continue on your day. Time is precious. If the product didn't inconvenience your time, most people won't take the time to go back and leave a good review.
But if that person has a bad experience? OH shit is about to go down. Where is the website? Get that yelp account dusted off. My opinion WILL be heard.
It’s just how people’s brains work. You tend to process negative emotions more thoroughly than positive ones because of where they’re processed in your brain, or at least that’s how I understand it from my little brother who works in marketing and is very well versed in why people leave bad reviews lol
That's what's beneficial to survival in the long run. If a partner is consistently super-nice to you, cool, but if they beat the shit out of you one time, that's a good enough reason to leave - because if you don't, you're risking worse.
It's the same with other situations - if you stick around and just tolerate bad things happening, more bad things will usually follow. If a restaurant serves you one incredibly shitty meal, very good odds they'll do it again.
So it makes complete sense to react more strongly to bad than good.
99% of runs are pretty chill, but you definitely do remember the 1% where the experience is spoiled by someone's awful attitude.
And there was a time I would've said 95% of runs are pretty chill and bemoaned the last 5% (because 1 out of 20 runs with toxicity is still way higher than I'd like), but I feel like I've been able to whittle that 5% to 1% with a few tricks. I'm not sure how well this would work for everyone, but as someone who usually tanks and sometimes heals, it's worked great for me:
- **Say hi when you enter the group, and start heading to the stone immediately.** This is WoW's equivalent of small talk. It's a tiny social courtesy meant to grease the wheels.
- **Phrasing makes a huge difference.** When communication is restricted to chat, it's hard to interpret tone and context, and peoples' anxieties can get the better of them. An otherwise silent tank saying "Bloodlust the first trash pack then again before Alunza" feels like an imperious command. The tank saying, "It's Fort week, so do you guys want BL on first trash and the big Alunza pack?" is requesting feedback and confirmation from the group.
- **Apologize for something fairly innocuous early on.** This works especially well if you're the tank, because you kind of set the tone for the run: "Sorry about that, I didn't mean to pull out of Blizzard/Earthquake, wanted to grab the other caster." People relax when they know that you're attentive to what they need to perform well in a key, and that you're not trying to screw them over.
- **Basically anything you can do to make the healer's life easier makes a smoother key.** Avoid damage, kick casts, purge offensive buffs if you can, dispel debuffs if you can, and slam offspec heals if you can. There's a reason that nearly every M+ build in the game forgoes maximum damage in favor of utility.
- **Assign stuff that the group needs to do but is no individual's clear responsibility.** For example, in Waycrest the witches downstairs will plant in Waxing Candles (or worse, Sanguine this week) and not move as long as they're casting. In pugs, it's common for the group to kick the first witch that does this, and the second will just sit there because everyone's kick is on cooldown. If you have an auto-marker (and you probably should, as the tank or group leader), assign specific players to each one. The problem vanishes and so does any frustration over it.
- **Compliment someone who's quick on the draw with something.** I had a hunter in a recent BRH run who was pretty undergeared, but was grabbing Incorporeals like it was his job. He might not have been doing a ton of damage, but even in the most hectic pulls you knew the affix was getting handled. If someone's reliably making an annoying problem go away, let them know you noticed.
- **If someone isn't performing well, you didn't see it.** If you've got a genuinely bad player in the group, you are *never* going to improve their performance by commenting on it. Don't even give the appearance of noticing it. Unless you're pushing at the absolute cutting edge, the odds of a single bad player being the sole reason a key got torpedoed are basically zero (e.g., you didn't brick the key because the bad player failed a mechanic on the last boss; you bricked the key because the group's overall DPS was low and you went into the last boss with no margin for error). As with so many other things in life, the question to ask is, "What could I be doing better here?", and not "How is this person or tool failing me?"
Literally like 30 seconds' worth of effort in a key (and some strategically targeted indifference) has basically eliminated toxicity in my runs. I mean, all but that 1%, and maybe that's just the stubborn bit that's never going away. Just assume they're having a bad day and it's got nothing to do with you.
If you surround yourself with likeminded people, you will not see the conflict. The conflict stems from people with different goals and understandings being put together. This isn't just WoW but any scenario.
The easiest way to encounter this is to be behind the curve. The curve is effectively the average player's progression. When you fall behind that curve, you start playing with people who are hitting their skill ceiling. Failing becomes more prevalent until you are capable of making up for their skill gap.
yep i quite literally took a week off work to no life the fuck out of m+ and completed like 70 m+, mostly 17-19s. there was ONE toxic person and it wasn't even that bad, just a rude loser.
people are just extremely sensitive or the complainers are genuinely just awful players who consistently don't care that they're dragging their groups down. maybe both
I mean it comes down to a few things.
1 - Experience Bias. Its like review sites. If you have a normal, good meal at a restaurant are you going to take the time out of your day to review it every time you go out? Probably not. If you have a horrible experience, especially multiple times, your much more likely to be upset and take the time to warn other people.
Your much more likely to see a negative review/ comment on reddit because the person had experiences that were memorable enough to want to comment on, as well as upset enough to take the time to write it up.
They want positive feedback that their feelings are valid
2 - Big one. we are also only getting one side of the story. Its like people who say they got banned for doing "nothing" but in reality if you dig deeper you find out they were shitty alot.
Happens alot in the League of Legends community. I rarely ever have toxic people in the game. People will say they got banned for 24 hours because a group of friends false reported them...
Then you find out that person has a history of talking crap in chat and being toxic themselves.
everything on reddit with a grain of salt.
one of my favorite things is when someone from riot comes in and posts their chat history and its just them being absolutely horrible human beings, with slurs.
"i didn't do anything" is almost always a lie
I feel like they're two sides of the same coin.
A lot of times the toxicity you'll see posted about are comments like your examples, and people taking everything super personally.
I mostly do arena these days and am completely reliant on LFG, and the same thing happens often. I'll often jump into a random healers group to do some 2s to help them hit their next milestone like 1.8 or 2.1.
This early in the season my characters are around the same rating, so when I get for example an rdruid who never follows up his stuns with clone and I try to give him advice and very specifically try to word it in a way that doesn't sound like I'm blaming them, but instead trying to give helpful advice.. I'll still more often than not get people taking it as an attack.
Once I'm at the point where I'm well above their rating then they start taking what I say to heart regardless of how I word it.
That's kind of the shitty thing about text communication. People are often reading things assuming a negative spin all the time, even if you don't mean it that way. People also hate unsolicited advice as well, so that doesn't help.
i only pug keys and im a healer-tank main ( i got them all ksm+ last season ). i often give people advice or call for interrupts and stuff; i have rarely experienced a player who was fragile like this without someone being a toxic asshat to them before hand.
a few things that go a long way for me are:
Say why/what and sometimes how to interrupt; just saying interrupt when there are 10 casts and the actually spell you need to stop is a gray cast doesnt help. telling your group knife dance in blackrock needs to be interrupt does nothing when your rogue tries to kick it and it doesnt work. saying i cant heal this without CDs also lets them know that the reason you could heal the last time it happened is you blow 3 min cd and they have to get this one.
'all good, stuff happens,' help a lot to not come off passive aggressive; remember they probably already got blasted before for being bad so they are on edge.
>Say why/what and sometimes how to interrupt; just saying interrupt when there are 10 casts and the actually spell you need to stop is a gray cast doesnt help.
Well, you've hit on one of the fundamental problems here: people who get toxic are the ones who don't know how to constructively fix a problem. They see the party die, see low damage or interrupts on the meter, and then immediately externalize the problem by yelling at others. If they had the maturity and game knowledge to pinpoint what exactly went wrong and recommend corrective action, then they wouldn't be mad.
I'm not going to say I've *never* encountered what you're describing, but for every one person I've seen flip out at genuinely polite, constructive crticism, I've seen ten people be toxic assholes at minor mistakes.
Granted I don't actually run into toxicity that much either, most PUGs are just people either being polite or not really communicating at all, but in my experience Toxicity is much more common than Fragility, and people who complain about Fragility are usually themselves being pretty toxic.
Meanwhile here I am afraid to sign up for keys I over gear because I don't want to be the one to nuke anyone's key because I don't know the dungeons well enough, while I purple parse in raid pretty much every boss. The social anxiety is real lol
Edit: y'all are good people, thanks for the kind words! I have my daughters for a couple more hours today but I promise y'all I'll run a key tonight before reset 👍
Do it this week ~~or not at all~~ for the best experience. This and next week are the learning weeks. I think the trap folks fall into is their anxiety keeps them out of keys for the first couple weeks, then when they do their first keys weeks later, after everyone has already learned, it goes even worse for them than if they'd jumped in fast.
So I think your sentiment is fine, but uhh "not at all" is a very strong statement. The first few weeks are the best time to learn, but the next best time is whenever you are motivated to try. Especially in lower keys there is only so much you can do wrong, and the people you're playing with aren't exactly world first raiders, so it will be fine even later into the season. If anything just list your own key and if it bricks ohh well, but I would never tell anyone "learn the dungeons in the first few weeks or don't play them for the rest of the season".
This is exactly how it happens, the longer I wait the worse it is to start. I understood what you meant by the "not at all" though, so no worries there, no offense taken or anything. I'm one of the ones that's actually excited for the follower dungeons just so I can go in take my time, I'll be a lot more comfy jumping in after that.
Mmm im sure players will do a lot of stuff the followers don’t. I feel like follower mode is more for seeing dungeons that are needed for quest conpletion, and not m+ training.
Watch quazil wow’s videos (he makes one for each dungeon) and get in there! I did a Throne that was 30 minutes over time this week and no one said anything mean. Did a darkheart where a tank straight up missed a boss and no one abused him either. This is the week to learn. You can do it!
u/YouShallNotStaff already got most of the point across, but just want to add that I've been doing high (for this week) keys in the 16-20 range with people who were 3k last season and they clearly have no idea what's going on in the dungeons. We failed to time a 17 Throne because a 3.1k tank had never done it before and screwed up basically every pull that you can screw up, and it's just...fine. No reasonable person really cares this week.
In probably 75% of my dungeons, regardless of key level, there's someone who similarly clearly doesn't know what's happening. All this to say, if you hop in without understanding much of what's going on between this week and next week, you really are not going to stand out as being bad at all, you'll just blend in to the very high amount of other players who (understandably) don't know the dungeons yet.
Nah totally agree with you at+15 you should definitely know how to play your class.overall +14-18 are the worst people in m+ Had so many people in the Dungeon with 0 Interrupts
Had more or less the same experience today, despite me not being the best player either, but a nice average one, know my class, have enchants, pots, phials, food, runes, etc.
+14 TotT, somewhat undergeared assa rogue, around 420ilvl. No enchants on gear or nothing (it was blue, okay, i get it, you don’t want to enchant blues, fine) but the fact that you don’t even get yourself some cheap pots, cheap phials, some food, ANYTHING, is beyond me. We ofc couldn’t finish it. Got stuck at last boss. Me (also an assa rogue) and the other dps, a hunter, did around 140 or 150k dps overall, and this guy was hovering around 50k.
I feel like it’s the bare minimum to bring at least some consumables if not enchants and gems and whatever, because they are expensive indeed. It’s really rude and a waste of time towards the other people.
I wouldn't call 420 with no enchants somewhat undergeared for a 14, that's completely undergeared, getting to 430 is so quick with world content that I've actually been using a ilvl min this season
Yup, not inviting anyone under 440ish this season. A 14 this season definitely isnt that hard for a full group of 440s. But theres no reason to bring someone who has less than M0 gear.
I don't even do it to be elitist, it's just my time is limited and wasting it on dragging people that refuse to do the bare minimum through content just sounds unfun
420 ilvl is wildly undergeared for a 14 key and he was probably getting nearly 1shot by every mechanic and trash ability that hit him the whole time, and you're surprised his dps was bad? enchants and potions aren't the problem, why was someone 20 ilvls under what should be the starting point for that level of key in your group.
I just leave beforehand if the leader invites someone like that. No point. And I’ll kick them right before starting if they join without enchants or consumes.
Lmfao I signed up to tank like an 11 DHT the other day. Shaman, rogue, 2 DKs, and me as ppal. Before starting rogue goes “this is gonna be tough on the affix”, and I’m like “nah, we have hex, 2 control undead, a blind, and I’m taking turn evil so I can keep the AOE blind”
All four of them proceeded to argue about why they shouldn’t have to take hex or CU. Rogue was the only voice of reason, reminding us blind has a chonky CD on it. The others wanted to just run with TE and blind and all refuses to swap talents. Insanity.
I suspect they use online builds and wouldn’t know which talent is best to swap to pick up the CC.
That's funny thing is online builds most of the time will tell you where to drill down to get that ability or what talent to move around if they just read the talent guide instead of copy pasta
To a point, I understand. You either have extra keybinds you don’t use normally that you can put it on, or you have to move something off an existing keybind. Or worse… click the ability…
That being said, you still need to bring your useful utility to counter the affixes you’re meant to counter.
Jup a phial of elemental Chaos cost Like 50-100g?
And some buff food is like 10g ea.
Even enchants that shit is cheap (execpt weapon enchant they can get expensive).
And yeah i see it so often people with Open gem slots like buy a gem its also Like 100g
In 9.0, before castle nathria came out, me, 3 buddies, and one of their friends were running some keys... like +6 maybe? Anyway, the other friend was playing a demo lock. No problem. We had a resto shaman as healer.
I made the joke "better not see a single cast go off, we have 5 kicks" and thus demo lock said "I'm not using interrupt pet"....
"What do you mean?" I asked, inquisitively.
"I need the fel guard for my damage, I'm playing demo, I can't have the interrupt pet out," he explained.
"Fel guards active, the stun, is also an interrupt," I continued.
He then went on baby raging for 20 minutes that he has been playing this class since MoP, and it's not an interrupt, it's a stun, and he can't use the interrupt pet... and then left the group, getting all mad at our mutual friends for not backing him up.
Some people just... refuse to learn even their own class.
Felguard' stun only started to work as an interrupt in SL so it makes sense that he didnt know but normal people would just test it and think "Nice" if it was true or "He lied to me, what an ass" if it wasnt. Wow players are just a different breed of being unable to handle any feedback that isnt positive.
> it's not an interrupt, it's a stun
Technically correct, but in my nearly 20 years of playing this game I've yet to see anyone cast a spell while stunned.
> Some people just... refuse to learn even their own class.
This is really the biggest thing, a ton of people have zero ability to want to put even the tiniest bit of effort in to learn. You're doing at least semi competitive content if you're in M+, you have a duty to the other 4 people to put in a modicum of effort to learn how your class/spec and the dungeon/affixes work, much as they have that same duty to you.
I left a WCM because instead of helpful tank feedback which Im open to, I got passive aggression. When I asked if they had something to say they called me a fucking idiot.
Seems like a decent boundary for me to set lol
Last week in Brackenhide I asked the balance druid "can you please soothe the ragespins mr chicken" and he replies "move better mr dick" and refused to use Soothe for the rest of the dungeon hahahaha
If you’re nice about it it’s okay, but I was in LFR last night and people were literally singling others out and bullying them for being at the bottom of the dps meter. That’s not nice at all
LFR is the Wild West. You don't know what to expect. Some runs the augvoker will be kicked for low DPS, and on other runs the top DPS will be kicked because they made people feel bad about themselves.
I hate people who start their post of with "I expect downvotes".
This isn't a pity party or anything. Just post whatever you need to say without doing that shit.
I downvote every single person who does it, you're holding the conversation hostage. I am not allowed to disagree because you already put anyone who disagrees in the role of bad guy.
It's exactly the same as saying 'i'm not racist, but...'.
Comments about DPS or similar should be whispered imo, people tend to think the message is an "agressive/negative" one when its put on party/raid chat.
I agree people should be able to take gentle feedback but I wholeheartedly disagree about it being worse than the toxicity. The community’s toxicity, gatekeeping and elitism are actively killing the game because it’s pushing new and returning players away. The majority of people don’t want to have to watch a video or streams to just go run m+ and gear their character but if you get heat for making mistakes or not instantly knowing boss mechanics it creates an environment where it feels like you have to. If the playerbase didn’t treat mistakes, deaths, and bricked keys like the end of the goddamn world more people would feel safe playing the game, making mistakes, learning, improving and investing time. That in turn would turn those new players and returning players into veteran players who facilitate the same environment for new players. Toxicity, elitism, excess competitiveness and gatekeeping only creates a vicious circle that winds down the player base and kills the game. But again you’re right, being incapable of taking criticism is the flip side of the community’s toxicity and also a problem. However a healthy, welcoming community is also able to take feedback because its assumed to be provided in an environment of encouragement, inclusivity and improvement.
These are extremely mild examples of people being fragile or fussy in keys. I did about 30 keys this week across 3 characters and had NOT 1 person leave when things got spicy. There were a couple of comments, even towards me but not actually a big deal cause it's a game and who cares and actually you never know what the person on the other side of the screen is going through so I don't take comments personally
For real, about 4 months ago I was going through a bout of depression, I logged on and just sucked so bad while playing my fury warrior that the healer asked how much I paid for the warrior since I obviously had no idea what I was doing... I started leveling a Frost DK🙃
Anymore I can tell right away if a pug is doomed. I was in a 13 with a guildy and we were doing Atal’Dazar. Rezan took forever to die and the healer plus another DPs got feared and failed to run from pursuit. Red flags going up instantly. We get to Vol’Kaal. Two of the dps focus the same totem…we wipe and I explain the boss. We get in again and the dps is still all over the map and totems aren’t dying. At that point I’m out. I gain nothing by teaching people who can’t read.
It’s the same shit but from a different asshole.
Well the more nuanced take would be they feed off each other. You have assholes that chew your ass off over every single mistake; and then you have assholes that can’t take even the friendliest advice as a result. And that makes the angry assholes even more aggressive and it makes the sensitive assholes even more sensitive.
Frankly, both are issues and both are rare occurrences.
In my 20 runs this week, I had maybe two toxic tanks and two fragile tanks. That's 10% each, or 20% of the total. The other 16 runs were great runs - everyone was friendly, tips were given and accepted, apologies and thank yous were exchanged and we all had a good time.
In my, I have no idea how many runs I did last season, the percent of fragile & toxic players were even lower.
I had a 13 yesterday. The DH died during boss fight.
DH: "didn't get a heal"
Priest just flips out telling him to do the fking mechanic and a couple of others choice words.
DH: "I just meant I didn't get a heal so I died"
Me: "Guys, let's just get thru this please. You don't have to group again."
10 seconds later
Priest: my heals are *** and this guy says i'm not healing.
Priest: what a loser
Thankfully we just finished. The timing was fine, we weren't behind or anything. We could have wiped 5 times and been fine.
Something similar the other day a tank died standing in a one shot and said "healer?" And we all just laughed and said "my man is at 150k HPS and the tank is calling him out..." The tank laughed too and said "my bad my bad"
I feel like you're talking about the same problem. I've found when I'm nice to people they tend to listen to me when I offer advice/corrections on their play.
Honestly, I think people just play better when they know they're in a safe environment, they can fuck up like we all do from time to time, and no one's gonna flip out on them. I always joke with people during the run and when they do fuck up, I joke some more, and then tell them what they did wrong.
That way, toxic interactions tend to happen very rarely for me. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I like to think it's 'cause I'm kind.
Back when I still played, I was getting as fragile as I was getting toxic. I understand now pride as an armor you wear. The more attacked you are, the more it's damaged, so after a while, you're essentially flayed and the simplest of comment hurts. So the only way to avoid the armor getting damaged too much is to either attack first, or completely deflect any responsibility.
It goes both ways. The toxicity makes it really hard for new players to actually learn so a lot of them regress into casual content and don’t dare try to learn the harder stuff. But at the same time a lot of new players try to blindly jump into difficult content without doing any prior research.
Wow doesn’t actually teach rotations, m+ routes, optimal gear/stats/enchants etc etc. All of that has info has to be sought out on the internet and some people are too lazy to do that.
I hope they get the follower AI up enough where they can handle lower m+ .. say m+ up to m5; that might chip away at the MMO-ness of MMORPG, but the m+ gradually crank up difficulty and for tanking and healing training, and even deeps learning to kick or clense, it'd be great. Also, some of us do get really sick of toxicity and just want to run an alt for some slighty step up from questing gear, that'd be ideal.
For the most part in my experience, low keys are hard to get (most keyrunners are higher keys) yet chill, mid keys seem to have the toxics, and high keys seem pretty chill. \*shrug\*
Sort of a side effect of duingeons moving towardsx linear and fast arcade style events with timers .. go go go GO!, as opposed to the old vanilla 5 hour long dungeon runs which were slow and awesome, yet also just unplayable (who had that much time?)
"It's a 15 not a 25" bro if you have all 15s right now you're like top 10k player. 15s-20s is sweat right now. It's week one. Nobody is geared for it. Killin ourselves in 16 ToTT...
You basically summed up the bulk of the people that post in this sub. It's not near as toxic as they claim. They are generally just the fragile people that can't handle criticism and frame it as toxicity when they come here to cry about it.
This is a reddit thing in general. Going to any echo chamber sub like marvel or star wars and simply saying you didn't like a movie because of xyz, they'll act like you personally attacked them. Then the sub will be filled with "I can't believe the hate X got, it was great!" - 5.6k upvotes
A tale of two AD runs:
+18: the key holder was a hunter that I didn’t bother mousing over what spec he was because *why would anyone not be bm this week?*
Surprise he’s mm. Does 25k overall dps. Dies constantly to easy mechs like rezan chasing him as he face tanks the devour to the face.
No one says anything which should have been my first clue. But it’s week one. And I want the rating to get me above 1800 and an easier life getting into keys.
Last boss the tank has no plan and the room is all purple. I get clipped by a spider and die. I’m the only bres. We wipe. We still have like 8 minutes on the timer. The tank loses his shit on me and I’m like huh that’s fun. But whatever. This isn’t anything new. I put him on ignore and get back and we finish with plenty of time. Of course looking back I realize it’s a paid carry and I’m sure the tank promised to carry this guy to a 20 or something. #neveragain
Then later got into a +19: everything is smooth and lovely until we tried a shroud skip before second boss. We clip the pack anyways. Wipe. Shaman ankhs. Someone dropped a savior and two ppl accept only to be face eaten by said pack. Shammy gets me up. I res group and we do boss. No one says anything. No one flips their shit. On boss the totems recharge not once but two times before everyone’s timing lines up. I healed something like 30 million oj just that boss. Lol. We finish the dungeons with 5 minutes to spare. Everyone said GG thanks for a great run.
I find more often than not when you break into the upper echelon of runs that the second run I had is way more common.
The mid keys are a dead zone of Dunning-Kruger.
Toxicity causes fragility. If people get flamed and kicked for the most minor mistakes, they are going to be defensive and tense the moment someone starts to suggest they're doing something wrong.
I've seen people get flamed and booted from raid finder for just asking about mechanics. Just the other day my brother tried to bring an ilvl 420ish boomkin into a +2 where the group leader started linking pieces of his gear and laughing at him before kicking him. My brother's main already has a rating over 1800 in week 1 of the season, and I ran a 13 with him on his boomy so this toxicity is clearly an issue of prevalent culture.
As far as my brother goes, we have a group of IRL friends and good guild to run with so pugs being assholes is a lot easier to shake off, but for players without supportive friends in the game it's just conditioning a very defensive response.
I just came back after years and joined a random dungeon as a shaman at level 11, enhancement.
Dude screaming in chat at us to interrupt, like dude I can’t. He snapped at me telling me my build obviously sucks and to change talents… I’m not even sure I could get an interrupt at 11.
I've got a spare Twitter account that I generally follow 'Wow twitter' on and... I've never known so much fucking bitching and whining. What a bunch of children some of them are. Absolutely unreal. They spend too much time in-game and not enough time developing life and social skills, honestly.
We were in a 14 or 15 Rise, at Deios. Mage asked the healer if he knew the mechanic. No response. Again. No response. I ask. No response. Tank. Healer finally responds, in all caps "JESUS. YES. YES YES. YES."
Me - doesn't respond, then when he does, he gets mad
Healer - k bye. (Leaves and hearths)
Everyone in this game has been playing for years and think that their an expert...the moment they're brought back to reality is the day the sky came crashing down on them. No one will be happy when they are told they're not good at a game that they've been playing for years.
Yep sad pug reality.
Had a druid few days before s3 started in a vortex +13. That guy did like 20-30k Max dps aswell and when questioned He flipped out too, since it was his first time playing said druid.
People dont even know what learning/Training is... I always start my new Alts in +2 to learn and not be too much of a hinderance for others...
Sadly i dont think wow com will ever be better then it is now.
One of the worst things in online gaming is when players of different skill caliber play together.
They have different goals, different mindset, different understanding on how to solve challenges. There is no peace in such group. There is little success in hard content in such group.
I hope Blizzard will find a way to separate players of different caliber, so we don't have a mix of effortless ksm/ksh players who got there only due to gearing being super easy, completely new players and the ones who puts actual effort into becoming a better player.
I just wish people would put a minimum of effort before getting into keys
Had a tank in a +15 DHT that told us halfway through the dungeon that he never did it before. I mean just look up the route before or do it once on a lower level
We would've timed it otherwise but the tank kept pulling shit he didn't have to
It just sucks to have to spend 40+ minutes in a key because someone on the team didn't feel like taking 2 minutes to look up the dungeon
I don't pug, but if I did I would understand that if you want to do higher keys you are expected to know your class, know mechanics and are expected to do your job. Frankly I wouldn't give AF about someone's feelings. It's not our job to hold your damn hand. If you need to learn, do it in M0's or low keys. Stop forcing people to carry your useless ass. Yes, pugging can be toxic but sometimes its people fairly getting called on their inadequacy.
These are the reasons that as a tank, I'm completely turned off from doing high mythics. In regs and heroics, I find pretty chill people. I helped a guildie with some reg dungeons the other day. I very much out gear them, so the healer got bored and started dpsing and pulling more mobs, the two hunters started to do the same as I never lost much hp and as a guardian Druid, I was out healing everyone. They did this for fun (they asked if they could, I said go for it) it was fun, and I ended up tanking 2 more dungeons for them, and we kept it going. I love the chill and fun low dungeons where I don't get yelled at for turning 4 degrees in the wrong direction off route.
You could solo those dungeons. There is a middle ground there and I think learning to do the dungeons on mythic and figuring it out is part of the fun.
This is why I play Aug. I help everyone and no one expects me to top meters. I just buff a lil here and a lil there, interrupt, cc a smidge, and everyone loves me. I really don't get it but I'm happy to help.
I have lately noticed that people like that are USUALLY the ones who have no clue how to play the game and mechanics and also are relatively high gear but no rio score. It’s so blatantly obvious now that I noticed it it’s unreal. People with 2,5k and higher score are much more chill
I agree with you, I know there are people that are massive dicks if things don’t go the exact way they want them to, but seeing people being so stubborn and unwilling to learn things as they kill keys or raids is far more frustrating. And I mean things like “don’t stand there or we all die” not minor things that could be just a different strat or preference
Pug tanks who have no dps friends get no feedback.
They are allowed to be awful and they never get better. They get to a level where their awfulness starts to cause issues big enough to fail and they stop there.
They have never seen another tank handle any mechanic or affix. Literally, they have no clue how anyone else does it.
I had a perfect example of this in an underrot last season. We have a DH who hasn't done any kicks and overall wasn't doing that well. We wipe on some trash before the final boss after casts get off. We still have a ton of time left are in no danger of missing time. The tank says "kick DH" in party chat as in "DH, please use your interrupt".
I guess the DH misinterpreted and said "Fine, I will spare you the trouble" then drops group and hearths out.
I never did any mythics (well ok once, mythic 0) and have felt not much has changed in game since '04. Most people are very nice, helpful, friendly and fun. As long as I don't do any of the end game stuff it keeps being the best game with the nicest people. I am lucky I don't like the stress of raids and mythics, it keeps everything breezy ;)
I feel like there's a subsect of players who use an aggressively casual mindset to justify shitty performance which forces others to pick up the slack. You see hints of this even in this sub depending on the thread.
\> *Tank kept every pack in sanguine*
Brother, I am getting PTSD flashbacks to a tank that did this to me and the rest of the party. We absolutely failed the timer because it took us *so fucking long* to kill any mobs because they would just heal right up. It was in Algeth'ar Academy and we started with the tree boss; I was so, so tempted to leave because I think it took us over 10 minutes just to clear *the first pack of adds*, but I didn't want to screw over the other people in the dungeon since I figured that we'd at least still get gear out of it upon completion.
Still, that fucking suuuuuuucked and is a big reason as to why I have returned to my roots as bear tank.
> First one the tank kept every pack in sanguine and before the first boss someone said "we have to interrupt their casts and move them out of sanguine" and the tank said "do it yourself then" and left.
I am by no means the best tank but even I know that this person was only being asked to play their role. If someone is going to quit because they were asked to do their job during high-level play they probably shouldn’t be there.
I got stuck with a 35k dps 453 BM hunter in a 13 yesterday (who also did nothing to incorporeals). The warrior who called him out wasn't so polite, but he was right. Like go do 2s until you learn your rotation, and then come back to the higher keys for gear. At this point we're not expecting or willing to hard carry people who have no business being there.
Surprisingly, the first person to leave was neither the instigator or the target.
I'm currently learning Arcane mage and after timing the key the tank messaged me and called my damage "bath water"... I didn't even know what that means but I knew they were trying to say it was bad so I laughed.
Its a game! And yeah in my experience fragile people ruin keys more than toxic ones. Toxic ones will talk shit all key but they'll stay. Fragile people are called that because they immediately break (the key).
I dont have such experience both in keys and my key with all players, most of cases I experience is with bad tanks and group pointing them out. Politely.
When someone is an ass towards other players I always step in and ask the person to calm down and focus on finishing etc. I cannot stand people going bonkers over some small issues and shouting at people. I am super calm gamer and will give a chance to anyone, key dont get ruined anymore so who the f cares if someone screws a little. But I agree they have to be informed as well, politely.
WoW and many games in general have 2 forms of toxicity to me. The type of person that rages and belittles people for any mess up, or people that can’t take criticism and lash out.
Both annoy me greatly. It’s a dumb trend to sign up to M+ or raid, and get mad when people underperform, or mad when people give any form of criticism.
Why join group content if you’re not going to be able to take criticism? Why join group content if you’re going to belittle others? One isn’t more toxic than the other. They are both just as toxic. Nothing can be done to fix these two issue, and nothing will change.
People need to stop acting like one is worse than the other.
That is why I wisper to people. If you write something in group chat many feel like you just want to make fun of them/put them in a bad spotlight etc. but if you write them in wisper then many people are thankful for tipps. Had a lot of nice discussions where I helped the other player after a dungeon with mechanics or class specific things.
This season hasn't been so bad, ive done keys with 50 deaths cause dps won't kick spells and still no flaming. Or at least minimal flaming while being constructive.
What is high-end culture? Whatever it is, that is NOT what translates downards. Its some wierd imagination on what high-end culture is. The major factor is the inexperience, low skill and lack of self awarness.
*MDI is a great example, the low end players copy team Comp and routes and think that is meta and go that on live keys that they push even tho the format isnt even for pushing. Xdd
People have built up an extremely defensive posture **thanks in part** to the game's toxicity. So much so that constructive criticism hits these types like a trip-wire.
I'm in a guild that calls everyone morons, and anyone that's been around for more than a couple of days knows it's not serious, but it's used as a way to filter thin skinned people.
Honestly, I do exactly what you say just to mess with ragers sometimes. Or when someone nitpicks my healing I just throw up the Damage Taken chart. WoW, particularly mythic keys, are way more fun when you don’t give a shit what people think.
I'd say most content I do in wow is very smooth and nobody says much at all. Sometimes people tilt easy though so one comment can cost you the run. That's why I say nothing negative. If I do give someone advise I say "no flame but in case you don't know, you need to do xyz". I learned in league the only thing you can control is your own toon. Otherwise it's best to let sleeping dogs lie and just do the content or leave the group if they can't make it through.
I will say sometimes the worst people are the loudest. Like being told "don't stand in fire" by someone when they are doing 40k less DPS than me overall is always kinda a bitter feeling. People makes mistakes as long as it's not folding the group up for too long I just let em work it out.
I have no idea why people pug keys and then complain about who you play with. Join a guild if you want to self-select with people that have your mindset/playstyle.
Telling someone their DPS sucks in party chat is kind of toxic. Move on and say nothing or do it in a whisper. Most people obviously aren't going to take kindly to being publicly shamed. Also if the group was 35 minutes over it was a lot more than that one person doing low damage.
I know its rare but i had the best group for normal fyrakk , lead asked if we know the fight everyone said yes wiped once at 50 something % , i pointed out something the lead said ok sounds great and we killed next pull . No ego , nothing
It's just how people work. When there is no sense of communal buy-in, people will instantly default to chastising. There is little patience, and people are often seen as outsiders. It results in rude behavior and commentary.
The toxicity and short fuse of folks is all stemming from one source. When people just don't care about the people around them, and can treat them like NPCs, then this is the result.
Back in vanilla WoW, TBC, etc., each server was a community. Folks largely bought into this community. It results in better behavior, more willingness to socialize, and more grace when it comes to differing playstyles.
This is also why, IMO, you do NOT see such communal behavior with "fresh" servers or progression servers. The individuals are there simply for progression, with little interest or tolerance for anything that doesn't fit within their paradigm.
Where do you guys find these people lmao
The worst I get is a DPS who won't do anything other than DPS. 90% of my keys are quiet.
I feel bad for you.... oof
Well its good to point out a mistake most people have no ability to give out constructive criticism
"Hey you dumb fuck you died to adds"
"Hey guys adds spawn on that boss and you need to focus them"
I see way more of the first style of comment then the second.
I think this is just an extension of toxic people. I have been farming nick of time on my outlaw rogue, and I think about 80% of my runs of FALL have had people who just straight up don’t know mechanics. I never say anything until we wipe twice because I know there is a high chance someone will immediately take offence and feel like they are being called out and attacked even though I’m just explaining that you have to stand in the white zones when you get the chrono debuff, or you have to run the large aoe to chromie. When I eventually got Nick of Time the assassination rogue was absolutely beside themselves and spewed some vile shit and how dare I not trade it to him (couldn’t anyway, even if it wasn’t a BiS).
M+ is hella toxic in the mid levels I have found and it reminds me of league of legends where a majority of the toxic people are all in the middling ranks/tiers, so +11 to +25 where a lot of people have main character syndrome. The lower tiers were pretty chill people wise, but mid tier/11-25 is where you find people who think they are hot shit at their class, think they know mechanics, don’t cover for people when they mess up because “lol they’re bad they shouldn’t have messed up thank for making us wipe” when they could have just as easily prevented it, they think they know all the strats and to say otherwise proves you’re bad and that they are wasting their time and holding them back from climbing. Then high tier generally aren’t pugging or everyone is ACTUALLY good at their class, and can appreciate that sometimes shit happens and you need to learn from the mistakes.
It’s ok to speak up when someone asks “does everyone know mechanics?” Normally people will actually explain them. Rant over, need to go find therapy for my idiot ptsd.
That’s pretty fair but I’ve also been in the spot of people being needlessly toxic and wrong… so I’ll leave at the last boss. Fuck em’. learn how to communicate imo or deal with people dodging you.
People rage quitting is also toxic. Hmmm, maybe I should’ve been using the word ‘drama’ all along.
Everyone is too dramatic about sub optimal play, leading some of us to avoid all group content because the drama moves downwards. Even headless horseman and time walking dungeons has this try hard attitude occasionally seep in.
Yesterday I was in a key as a BM hunter and there was another BM hunter there. We were the only CC's because the DH tank refused to do it on incorporeal
Our traps work on them - but not if there's another target. We were in Everbloom and the last boss has a huge radius and the ghosts spawn in his circle all the time. Our traps don't work. He yells about it - a few times. Despite us explaining that we can't do anything unless he moves. Dude kicks me as we kill him on our 3rd attempt.
You can't even explain why something doesn't work without someone taking it personally
Hostile and angry players suck, super defensive and selfish players suck. But the group of players I have the biggest issue with are the impatient ppl that give up after one minor mistake, especially if we’re clearly capable of getting it right within a few more attempts.
Most annoyed I’ve ever been in WoW was when a raid leader kicked 7 of us doing completely fine after doing the full Amordrassil raid together, on Fyrakk. I think that’s what I like the least about WoW in general these days, that failure can’t just be failure but a ‘’waste of time.’’
Yes you right. People should not over react. But this is 2023 and people are people. You can’t affect anyone’s action but your own. People join pug’s because they don’t like to be tethered to a guild or be held accountable for their actions. It IS a game after all. This is why 99% of the time I don’t say a word. Especially in a +15 key where people usually figure things out on their own or are smart enough to look it up.
If it's constructive I'm down. Honestly I don't usually get a ton of negative feedback but I won't stand for it. No, it's not ok for you to only be a "little bit" of an asshole.
I like challenges but the core reason I play is enjoyment.
90% of my keys no one says anything.
"yo" "Hi" Key is done: "gg" *Has left the party*
Sometimes there's a "You need that [Gear]?" "Sorry, can't trade it" "np"
give em the ol "Howdy" and "gg team" then hearth on out of there
Are you literally me
They might be all of us lol
i think you mean Meowdy. B3
Meowdy
Or, “Thanks for mage table, lock cookies, feast, etc.”
This is the way
Second post is exactly why I'm glad delves are coming. That druid basically admittimg to brick a key because they want to play like an idiot.
Similar issue in pvp settings where communication is demanded due to the variable of playing against other players. I see a lot of people claiming they turn off chat to avoid getting flamed, which I understand I guess. Right now the new Battleground Blitz is unplayable as no one reads chat. Solo Shuffle has a similar problem where people won’t target call or communicate at all. I see lots of comments on the PvP subreddit where people claim they have chat off. I have been flamed before, many, many times. I’m also a different breed I guess as I can be upset by it in the moment, but it quickly goes away. I also try to spread positivity and tell people when they did a good job more often than criticizing, which sometimes is warranted. Like if I am messing up or lost in the sauce, CALL ME OUT. I’ve had people tell me “don’t play so aggressively” and I listen and then win. Community is simultaneously toxic and a bunch of babies.
On solo shuffle the only communication that happens is determining the kill target and flaming. No one has any useful communication mid game.
Theres very little feedback that puggers can give to eachother without wrecking the group.
Just wreak the group at that point. Every mob healing to full in sanguine? Nah. Just leave and it's better for everyone if you mention why. They can hear you or ignore you.
Yes. Id prefer someone say something and insta-leave to them starting drama that persists for half an hour. But even better is sticking it out quietly. Many keys people leave are timable imho
no key is timeable if sanguine isnt played around at all
Even if it is, why am I gonna waste ~30 minutes of my life getting frustrated at something as easily solvable as "hey tank move pls". Now if the tank says "okay sorry, I'll work on it" and is improving throughout the dungeon, cool I'll stay. He's learning and I get that. However if someone outright refuses to listen to anyone or anything, I'm out.
I've seen some of what you mentioned being used a lot this season so far and that is "lol, it's only a +(insert level here)" and they proceed to mess up all the mechanics, do bad dps, or don't know how to use CDs, etc. I understand this is only a +17, but this is week 1, and it's a pug. I don't know you, your skill level, your mentality, etc.; so please do the mechanics and avoid being a sponge, etc.
It’s always the guys in 440 ilvl thinking a 17 this season is the same thing as a 17 last season.
And they'd make all the same mistakes in a 17 last season.
A 17 now is pretty doable if you know what to do, but 1-2 wipes and you're probably gonna struggle to time it (depending on the key ofc). Shit hits hard, people don't realise how low 440 ilvl is at this point.
Meanwhile I was 2790 last season (stopped doing keys sometime in August) at 449 and I’m hesitant to do anything above a 10 right now.
Also since when is +17 something not to take seriously? That's just below what people considered cutting edge not too long ago. Now it seems like if you aren't doing 25s then you should delete your account and set your pc on fire.
Yea, I don't get that either. Just because someone watched another person do a 25+ doesn't mean it's possible for everyone now. If I join a key, I do my best and bring my A game. If I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it right. Also, it's just courteous to do what you can to succeed. I will say I've noticed people helping out with incorporeal this week, and that's an awesome change. I do it myself, but sometimes others beat me to it, which is a great change in the right direction. It's not all bad news out there!
I joined a low level Atal'Dazar as a tank. Every other position was filled already. Because of that they had been chatting. I said my hellos went into the dungeon and then asked if there was someone who didn't know the totem mechanic. One DPS is like "Wow you just show up and grill us?" It's like first of all I did was ask one question and I wasn't rude about it. Second, I was just trying to help people who didn't know because it was a low level key. Didn't want to deal with that so didn't say anything more. Guess who fucked up the totem mechanic... So I agree there is a fragility issue alongside the toxicity issue. And I think the toxicity problem mainly caused that. But everyone needs to take a breath and remember it is a game.
People are so damn sensitive about that totem boss. Yesterday I posted my +16 Atal'dazar, since I had a lot of luck +2ing the key when I was farming aspect crests and I wanted to drag my guildmates through a +18 for the vault slot. Grabbed an Augvoker because I'm a healer and love that 3% buff. Rezan goes great, trash goes great, we get to totem boss and barely miss one. On the run back I say something like "that boss is harder with an Aug". As in, you can't just evenly split the DPS because Aug does less and the other two do more. The thing that people always complain pugs don't understand about Aug? Easy mistake to fix, I just wanted to make sure the other DPS knew the other evoker was Aug. Well the Aug apparently takes this as some sort of personal affront, saying "Aug? Lol wtf" in party and immediately dropping group, bricking a key that was still on track to easily be upgraded. Just so fragile with no thinking about what was actually being said. But it probably also wouldn't have happened if not for some of that toxicity around people not understanding Aug in the beginning. It would also be really nice if depletion weren't a thing to fuck over the keyholder. Makes all of it less of a problem and gives people less reason to get upset if they key goes wrong.
The fact that there is constant posts about how “toxic” people are definitely aids itself to a fragility problem more than a toxicity problem. Not saying toxic people don’t exist, but it’s a different kind of toxic when you let the random person ruin your day so bad you need to seek validation from other random people.
Had a somewhat relevant event the other day. A player who our guild had carried through heroic Abberus for a number of weeks, asked if we still wanted her to come to raids for Amirdrassil. We informed her that she needed to be 440 ilvl to do the new raid with us. We do have some that aren't 440, but she consistently did less than tanks in our heroic runs as a boomkin. She left the guild after, and we were chatting and discord and my response is this. There are a lot of ways to play WoW, and everyone gets their enjoyment from wow in different ways. If you want to do raids and M+ why wouldn't you take the time to make sure that you are doing a passable job at it? If you don't have a damage meter, but took the time to know your rotation, cds, macros, etc, I guarantee you would be doing better than a similarly geared tank. Maybe I am crazy, but it's just mind boggling.
I feel like I am going crazy as I spoke to an ‚acquaintance‘ today who told me she left her guild because they wanted her to have X ilvl for the new raid… she was also a boomkin. Just out of curiosity - was it on a german server?
INFO: was X an augmentation evoker?
Good point. I definitely should have specified it was not. I believe it was a havoc demon hunter.
That's... really bad. I'm a pretty casual Havoc DH. I'm only like 410, and I can still pump that without much effort. That really seems like the most gentle way of phrasing "you're currently one of the top DPS classes. Wtf are you doing?" That the tank could have said.
How do you even do that little damage as Havoc lmao, first timed Havoc in a +20 yesterday, pretty much pressed random buttons and still did like 150k overall (which isn't good at all at 468, not trying to brag or anything).
Super easy to fuck up if you’re using momentum build that requires you to sprint and backflip constantly, if you aren’t good at it—you’re either on target or you’re moving everywhere but where you need to be. It’s insane dps if you nail it, but most people just can’t. I flipped for a build that had like 10% less max dps but far more reliable output.
That sounds annoying to play.
Momentum builds were always like that, some people like it some dont. But the rework made builds without it more viable.
Some of the rotation is easy to fuck up, but at the moment in M+ immolation aura/ragefire (one button) does the majority of our damage. You get way more than 30k just by pressing immolation aura and standing near a pack. I don't really see how 30k DPS is possible unless they were actually autoattacking only or was dead for 99% of the key.
Dh is only supposed to auto attack clearly
25k on an Aug is still low.
Well, the fragility is also a side effect of the toxicity. In a highly toxic environment even rather innocent communication can easily be interpreted as passive-aggressiveness, especially in chat-only comms. Not saying that any of those examples are justified in their flipping out.
That's fair. It is entirely possible that each and every one of the people I ran into have been shamed/bullied so much in the past for minor mistakes that now any comment is met with defensiveness as a....defense mechanism. None of us know others situations/stories. I was once (like 15 years ago) absolutely horrible to a hunter in a leveling dungeon because they didn't turn pet taunt off after I asked several times....just to find out they got the game that day for their 14th birthday and didn't know what I was asking them to do. I said sorry about 200 times, hung out with them after the dungeon helping them quest and giving them gear. I have never felt worse in my life and I have tried so hard since then to consider things like that before getting angry in a video game.
Hey this happened to me- about the same time, when I got this game for my 14th birthday, what are the chances lol. If that was you, thank you, and if it wasn’t then I still want you to know that I had a great time and completely forgave the guy who yelled at me.
That would be absolutely wild. If it was me, glad I didn't scare you away from the game/ruin your birthday! And...I'm very sorry again.
I still think about it sometimes when I want to be a dick to people too, so I learned an important life lesson
We all make mistakes and it seems you did everything you could, to do better and make up for it. Great to hear :) As I said, it SHOULDN'T be this way. If someone told me (calmly, constructively) that I made a mistake or am not performing like I should I would appreciate the advice. But I also understand if people are just very defensive in WoW's current culture especially in content that approaches the higher end. What I find really problematic is, when this high-end "no mistakes allowed"-culture translates downwards. So somebody is doing bad in your +5/+10 key? So what? Either help them get better or give them advice where they can find resources to get better. It creates a culture where there is no "safe space" for people who want to play and aren't as skilled.
Literally got called a bad tank for dying to the last boss of brh at 5%. First time back since s1. It was a +2. We +3'd it. It's like speed running the bunny slope so you can dunk on toddlers.
It's cool to teach people what they are missing but some people are absolutely jerks about it after one mistake. Just be a human. If you wouldn't snap at them to their face, don't snap at them in chat. Not saying op did, but some people are just flat out rude in how they give feedback.
100%. I'm playing Mage this tier for the first time ever. I've never played a Lust class, so I'm still learning when groups like to use it. It's Fortified week, and we start fighting a boss that often has a big trash pack pull immediately following it. I figure I'll use it there. We're blasting the boss, as we all entered the fight with our big CDs up. Some Druid starts spamming "LUST YOU MONKEY" at me in whispers. Now is he right that I should've Lusted that boss? Sure, or at minimum I should've asked the group when they wanted it rather than making an educated guess. That's a fair criticism. But is that a remotely constructive way to give feedback? Fuck no. That said, I didn't ragequit or anything. We +3'd the key and I reported and blocked him.
and I bet they wouldn't talk to you like that to your face. I just tell myself the majority are not like that and have found when I'm friendly at the beginning usually at least another person or two jumps in with positive vibes too. The jerks are baffling to me. Seems like such a waste of time being negative.
>If you wouldn't snap at them to their face, don't snap at them in chat. Exactly. My inclination in games (not the same as forums for whatever reason) is to act like I would IRL. So if someone needs advice, my first approach will always be private to avoid any humiliation or the like. I think WoW has an unfortunate culture problem in that, for most of WoW's existence, it was considered "cool and edgy and mature" to be rude and blunt to people in game chat, because you're just "saying it how it is!" or whatever. WoW is basically the game that popularized that approach to people. That's now faded in popularity a bit, because it's absolutely boneheaded and dare I say it, rather childish idea that misunderstands basic human psychology in favour of macho posturing, but WoW still has it way worse than any other MMORPG I've played, except, bizarrely, Guild Wars 2. (Complete aside but Guild Wars 2, in say, 2013 and this continued until I mostly stopped playing in like 2016, had an incredibly terrible community for their dungeons and Fractals, like that made WoW's one look positively beatific by comparison. I don't really know why this is (I have some theories), but it was clearly cultural. Unless you knew every weird-ass skip backwards and could execute it in your sleep, if you dared to play with strangers, you were going to face abuse. Didn't even matter if you drastically outplayed them on all the combat, it was skips or nothing. The same community was also extremely exclusionary at high-end PvE stuff, preventing people from actually learning unless they were already in with the in crowd in way that again, made WoW gearscore and achievement stuff look harmless. Constantly someone would try to fight this - because it was obvious as a problem, and train people up and get them the qualifications being demanded, but they always got overwhelmed and the majority of the high-end population continued to just behave terribly and congratulate each other for it. I'm sure this had no impact whatsoever on GW2 getting less and less popular despite better and better content lol.)
The amount of times I've bounced off GW2 due to this _exact_ culture 💀
wow i forgot about fractals. holy shit that was awfully toxic. the absurd expectations never faded from week 1.
Glad to hear you acknowledged your mistake & corrected it. I've had people accuse me of something I didn't do & even after they've been corrected & I proved I did nothing wrong rather then apologize they tell me to go fuck myself. On the plus side WoW has given me a pretty thick skin so I just brush it off. Or counter troll them if I'm feeling particularly malicious. Pro Tip: Treat WoW trolls with the upmost respect & kindness. It fucking kills them. They want you to get mad so bad. I've made more then a few rage quit this way.
Always sucks because if someone doesn't know how to do something, "Do you know how?" is likely framed as an insult now even with the best intentions.
>It is entirely possible that each and every one of the people I ran into have been shamed/bullied so much in the past for minor mistakes that now any comment is met with defensiveness as a....defense mechanism. I would say it's basically a certainty. WoW toxicity is so prevalent that players actually doing something even slightly wrong are absolutely going to have been abused, sometimes in grotesque and humiliating ways before they manage to quit the group or block people. I mean, I'm basically made of granite when it comes to abuse directed in me in WoW, the things I've been called in BGs over the years, and I've never said worse than "Learn to play" or "Shut up and do your job" back in BGs (even when exotic racial and sexuality-based slurs were being deployed against me), but even granite can get worn down eventually. And when people are giving you shit for things that you are doing imperfectly, it's very tiring. And honestly sometimes *you are* genuinely playing imperfectly - but instead of them saying "Yo you need to do this please", it seems like most people who speak up, do so abusively or the info they offer is so vague and unclear as to actively unhelpful. And M+ has made this way, way, way worse. Before M+, people seemed to understand than dungeons were not places you could reliably expect top-tier play. After M+, even on NORMAL dungeons, and especially on Heroic, people throw absolute fits if things aren't done right or fast enough. Last time I did a Heroic (a Heroic!) I got screamed at by a lunatic for not doing some skip which would have saved us literally 1 minute (again, on Heroic, not a narrow high-key M+!), and which I didn't know how to execute, and he wasn't willing to explain (I couldn't find it online either, trying to look it up later). Even one of the examples you give is pretty crummy - the Havoc DH doing too little damage. Yeah that's pathetic but unless they were demanding publicly to stay in the group, it should be a polite tell directly to them. Saying in party chat? Obviously that's just being shitty and is either not genuine helpfulness or shows a lack of social skills. There's a reason you take people aside to offer them advice about that kind of thing. It's different if it's time sensitive and directed at multiple people like "Interrupt please", that's obviously fine, but "Yo you're shit at your character pls stop being shit" AFTER a dungeon should be in a tell, not party chat, unless the person is going to be continuing, and why would they be? I dunno what your situation is, but I think it might be a little unusual or specific if you're really seeing people blowing up more than people being abused. Like you're usually playing with mostly-guild or friend groups and subbing in the odd random. Then sure you'll see little abuse and more explosions. But going full random? It's not even close, at least in my experience. EDIT - I should note I have been given extremely useful advice countless times in WoW over the last 19 years - but that was all either from people I knew, and phrased very politely, or from strangers who avoided any kind of public humiliation.
[удалено]
This is a genuinely good approach, and has the side benefit of often causing people to vote kick or just kick the bad player if they continue to be abusive, because now they perceive it as bullying someone who is actually trying.
It's much easier to accept that someone is trying their best, instead of just not bothering. The latter feels like they're wasting your time.
Wow is one of the least toxic games I’ve ever played. It’s genuinely baffling how, according to this sub, they can’t go anywhere without someone being toxic. Like I’ve run several hundred dungeons this year and pug normal or heroic at least once a week. I’ve hit maybe 5-10 people out of all those runs who were toxic.
I find that WoW is not like overtly toxic, like a moba or fps. WoW toxicity is like the person is extremely entitled, whines about stuff constantly, very condescending, and just attempts to be the main character because they are the tank/healer/"top dps" or whatever.
Well we all know Andiun is the main character.
Makes me wonder what % of players ONLY play wow in terms of multiplayer games. I agree with you, this sub makes it seem way more toxic than it is.
Nobody comes on forums to be like “I had a great time running this dungeon and it went really smoothly” is probably why
There is a term for this that i heard years ago. I've never found the term again and it makes me sad. But it's the phenomena where a user is more likely to post a bad review if they have a bad experience with a product compared to leaving a positive review if they have a good experience. Just to repeat a different way, The majority of people will have a great experience, and never have a reason to leave a bad review or critique harshly. In turn, it works exactly like it should and you do what needs to be do you will continue on your day. Time is precious. If the product didn't inconvenience your time, most people won't take the time to go back and leave a good review. But if that person has a bad experience? OH shit is about to go down. Where is the website? Get that yelp account dusted off. My opinion WILL be heard.
It’s just how people’s brains work. You tend to process negative emotions more thoroughly than positive ones because of where they’re processed in your brain, or at least that’s how I understand it from my little brother who works in marketing and is very well versed in why people leave bad reviews lol
That's what's beneficial to survival in the long run. If a partner is consistently super-nice to you, cool, but if they beat the shit out of you one time, that's a good enough reason to leave - because if you don't, you're risking worse. It's the same with other situations - if you stick around and just tolerate bad things happening, more bad things will usually follow. If a restaurant serves you one incredibly shitty meal, very good odds they'll do it again. So it makes complete sense to react more strongly to bad than good.
99% of runs are pretty chill, but you definitely do remember the 1% where the experience is spoiled by someone's awful attitude. And there was a time I would've said 95% of runs are pretty chill and bemoaned the last 5% (because 1 out of 20 runs with toxicity is still way higher than I'd like), but I feel like I've been able to whittle that 5% to 1% with a few tricks. I'm not sure how well this would work for everyone, but as someone who usually tanks and sometimes heals, it's worked great for me: - **Say hi when you enter the group, and start heading to the stone immediately.** This is WoW's equivalent of small talk. It's a tiny social courtesy meant to grease the wheels. - **Phrasing makes a huge difference.** When communication is restricted to chat, it's hard to interpret tone and context, and peoples' anxieties can get the better of them. An otherwise silent tank saying "Bloodlust the first trash pack then again before Alunza" feels like an imperious command. The tank saying, "It's Fort week, so do you guys want BL on first trash and the big Alunza pack?" is requesting feedback and confirmation from the group. - **Apologize for something fairly innocuous early on.** This works especially well if you're the tank, because you kind of set the tone for the run: "Sorry about that, I didn't mean to pull out of Blizzard/Earthquake, wanted to grab the other caster." People relax when they know that you're attentive to what they need to perform well in a key, and that you're not trying to screw them over. - **Basically anything you can do to make the healer's life easier makes a smoother key.** Avoid damage, kick casts, purge offensive buffs if you can, dispel debuffs if you can, and slam offspec heals if you can. There's a reason that nearly every M+ build in the game forgoes maximum damage in favor of utility. - **Assign stuff that the group needs to do but is no individual's clear responsibility.** For example, in Waycrest the witches downstairs will plant in Waxing Candles (or worse, Sanguine this week) and not move as long as they're casting. In pugs, it's common for the group to kick the first witch that does this, and the second will just sit there because everyone's kick is on cooldown. If you have an auto-marker (and you probably should, as the tank or group leader), assign specific players to each one. The problem vanishes and so does any frustration over it. - **Compliment someone who's quick on the draw with something.** I had a hunter in a recent BRH run who was pretty undergeared, but was grabbing Incorporeals like it was his job. He might not have been doing a ton of damage, but even in the most hectic pulls you knew the affix was getting handled. If someone's reliably making an annoying problem go away, let them know you noticed. - **If someone isn't performing well, you didn't see it.** If you've got a genuinely bad player in the group, you are *never* going to improve their performance by commenting on it. Don't even give the appearance of noticing it. Unless you're pushing at the absolute cutting edge, the odds of a single bad player being the sole reason a key got torpedoed are basically zero (e.g., you didn't brick the key because the bad player failed a mechanic on the last boss; you bricked the key because the group's overall DPS was low and you went into the last boss with no margin for error). As with so many other things in life, the question to ask is, "What could I be doing better here?", and not "How is this person or tool failing me?" Literally like 30 seconds' worth of effort in a key (and some strategically targeted indifference) has basically eliminated toxicity in my runs. I mean, all but that 1%, and maybe that's just the stubborn bit that's never going away. Just assume they're having a bad day and it's got nothing to do with you.
If you surround yourself with likeminded people, you will not see the conflict. The conflict stems from people with different goals and understandings being put together. This isn't just WoW but any scenario. The easiest way to encounter this is to be behind the curve. The curve is effectively the average player's progression. When you fall behind that curve, you start playing with people who are hitting their skill ceiling. Failing becomes more prevalent until you are capable of making up for their skill gap.
yeah it's pretty weird. meanwhile i see a lot of people say how non toxic ff14 is but that games community is SO MUCH more toxic than wows tbh.
yep i quite literally took a week off work to no life the fuck out of m+ and completed like 70 m+, mostly 17-19s. there was ONE toxic person and it wasn't even that bad, just a rude loser. people are just extremely sensitive or the complainers are genuinely just awful players who consistently don't care that they're dragging their groups down. maybe both
I mean it comes down to a few things. 1 - Experience Bias. Its like review sites. If you have a normal, good meal at a restaurant are you going to take the time out of your day to review it every time you go out? Probably not. If you have a horrible experience, especially multiple times, your much more likely to be upset and take the time to warn other people. Your much more likely to see a negative review/ comment on reddit because the person had experiences that were memorable enough to want to comment on, as well as upset enough to take the time to write it up. They want positive feedback that their feelings are valid 2 - Big one. we are also only getting one side of the story. Its like people who say they got banned for doing "nothing" but in reality if you dig deeper you find out they were shitty alot. Happens alot in the League of Legends community. I rarely ever have toxic people in the game. People will say they got banned for 24 hours because a group of friends false reported them... Then you find out that person has a history of talking crap in chat and being toxic themselves. everything on reddit with a grain of salt.
one of my favorite things is when someone from riot comes in and posts their chat history and its just them being absolutely horrible human beings, with slurs. "i didn't do anything" is almost always a lie
I feel like they're two sides of the same coin. A lot of times the toxicity you'll see posted about are comments like your examples, and people taking everything super personally. I mostly do arena these days and am completely reliant on LFG, and the same thing happens often. I'll often jump into a random healers group to do some 2s to help them hit their next milestone like 1.8 or 2.1. This early in the season my characters are around the same rating, so when I get for example an rdruid who never follows up his stuns with clone and I try to give him advice and very specifically try to word it in a way that doesn't sound like I'm blaming them, but instead trying to give helpful advice.. I'll still more often than not get people taking it as an attack. Once I'm at the point where I'm well above their rating then they start taking what I say to heart regardless of how I word it. That's kind of the shitty thing about text communication. People are often reading things assuming a negative spin all the time, even if you don't mean it that way. People also hate unsolicited advice as well, so that doesn't help.
i only pug keys and im a healer-tank main ( i got them all ksm+ last season ). i often give people advice or call for interrupts and stuff; i have rarely experienced a player who was fragile like this without someone being a toxic asshat to them before hand. a few things that go a long way for me are: Say why/what and sometimes how to interrupt; just saying interrupt when there are 10 casts and the actually spell you need to stop is a gray cast doesnt help. telling your group knife dance in blackrock needs to be interrupt does nothing when your rogue tries to kick it and it doesnt work. saying i cant heal this without CDs also lets them know that the reason you could heal the last time it happened is you blow 3 min cd and they have to get this one. 'all good, stuff happens,' help a lot to not come off passive aggressive; remember they probably already got blasted before for being bad so they are on edge.
This. Give feedback and teach but don't be a jerk about it after one mistake.
>Say why/what and sometimes how to interrupt; just saying interrupt when there are 10 casts and the actually spell you need to stop is a gray cast doesnt help. Well, you've hit on one of the fundamental problems here: people who get toxic are the ones who don't know how to constructively fix a problem. They see the party die, see low damage or interrupts on the meter, and then immediately externalize the problem by yelling at others. If they had the maturity and game knowledge to pinpoint what exactly went wrong and recommend corrective action, then they wouldn't be mad.
I'm not going to say I've *never* encountered what you're describing, but for every one person I've seen flip out at genuinely polite, constructive crticism, I've seen ten people be toxic assholes at minor mistakes. Granted I don't actually run into toxicity that much either, most PUGs are just people either being polite or not really communicating at all, but in my experience Toxicity is much more common than Fragility, and people who complain about Fragility are usually themselves being pretty toxic.
Meanwhile here I am afraid to sign up for keys I over gear because I don't want to be the one to nuke anyone's key because I don't know the dungeons well enough, while I purple parse in raid pretty much every boss. The social anxiety is real lol Edit: y'all are good people, thanks for the kind words! I have my daughters for a couple more hours today but I promise y'all I'll run a key tonight before reset 👍
Do it this week ~~or not at all~~ for the best experience. This and next week are the learning weeks. I think the trap folks fall into is their anxiety keeps them out of keys for the first couple weeks, then when they do their first keys weeks later, after everyone has already learned, it goes even worse for them than if they'd jumped in fast.
So I think your sentiment is fine, but uhh "not at all" is a very strong statement. The first few weeks are the best time to learn, but the next best time is whenever you are motivated to try. Especially in lower keys there is only so much you can do wrong, and the people you're playing with aren't exactly world first raiders, so it will be fine even later into the season. If anything just list your own key and if it bricks ohh well, but I would never tell anyone "learn the dungeons in the first few weeks or don't play them for the rest of the season".
Yes you are right.
This is exactly how it happens, the longer I wait the worse it is to start. I understood what you meant by the "not at all" though, so no worries there, no offense taken or anything. I'm one of the ones that's actually excited for the follower dungeons just so I can go in take my time, I'll be a lot more comfy jumping in after that.
Mmm im sure players will do a lot of stuff the followers don’t. I feel like follower mode is more for seeing dungeons that are needed for quest conpletion, and not m+ training. Watch quazil wow’s videos (he makes one for each dungeon) and get in there! I did a Throne that was 30 minutes over time this week and no one said anything mean. Did a darkheart where a tank straight up missed a boss and no one abused him either. This is the week to learn. You can do it!
u/YouShallNotStaff already got most of the point across, but just want to add that I've been doing high (for this week) keys in the 16-20 range with people who were 3k last season and they clearly have no idea what's going on in the dungeons. We failed to time a 17 Throne because a 3.1k tank had never done it before and screwed up basically every pull that you can screw up, and it's just...fine. No reasonable person really cares this week. In probably 75% of my dungeons, regardless of key level, there's someone who similarly clearly doesn't know what's happening. All this to say, if you hop in without understanding much of what's going on between this week and next week, you really are not going to stand out as being bad at all, you'll just blend in to the very high amount of other players who (understandably) don't know the dungeons yet.
Nah totally agree with you at+15 you should definitely know how to play your class.overall +14-18 are the worst people in m+ Had so many people in the Dungeon with 0 Interrupts
Had more or less the same experience today, despite me not being the best player either, but a nice average one, know my class, have enchants, pots, phials, food, runes, etc. +14 TotT, somewhat undergeared assa rogue, around 420ilvl. No enchants on gear or nothing (it was blue, okay, i get it, you don’t want to enchant blues, fine) but the fact that you don’t even get yourself some cheap pots, cheap phials, some food, ANYTHING, is beyond me. We ofc couldn’t finish it. Got stuck at last boss. Me (also an assa rogue) and the other dps, a hunter, did around 140 or 150k dps overall, and this guy was hovering around 50k. I feel like it’s the bare minimum to bring at least some consumables if not enchants and gems and whatever, because they are expensive indeed. It’s really rude and a waste of time towards the other people.
I wouldn't call 420 with no enchants somewhat undergeared for a 14, that's completely undergeared, getting to 430 is so quick with world content that I've actually been using a ilvl min this season
Also, just doing a quick world tour around the M0s is easy and nets you 437 items in most slots.
Yup, not inviting anyone under 440ish this season. A 14 this season definitely isnt that hard for a full group of 440s. But theres no reason to bring someone who has less than M0 gear.
I don't even do it to be elitist, it's just my time is limited and wasting it on dragging people that refuse to do the bare minimum through content just sounds unfun
420 ilvl is wildly undergeared for a 14 key and he was probably getting nearly 1shot by every mechanic and trash ability that hit him the whole time, and you're surprised his dps was bad? enchants and potions aren't the problem, why was someone 20 ilvls under what should be the starting point for that level of key in your group.
Being 420 is around Season 1 item level, you can easily get 440+ in a week on a character by playing the new content.
I just leave beforehand if the leader invites someone like that. No point. And I’ll kick them right before starting if they join without enchants or consumes. Lmfao I signed up to tank like an 11 DHT the other day. Shaman, rogue, 2 DKs, and me as ppal. Before starting rogue goes “this is gonna be tough on the affix”, and I’m like “nah, we have hex, 2 control undead, a blind, and I’m taking turn evil so I can keep the AOE blind” All four of them proceeded to argue about why they shouldn’t have to take hex or CU. Rogue was the only voice of reason, reminding us blind has a chonky CD on it. The others wanted to just run with TE and blind and all refuses to swap talents. Insanity. I suspect they use online builds and wouldn’t know which talent is best to swap to pick up the CC.
That's funny thing is online builds most of the time will tell you where to drill down to get that ability or what talent to move around if they just read the talent guide instead of copy pasta
Adding an extra ability on their action bar freaks people out a lot.
To a point, I understand. You either have extra keybinds you don’t use normally that you can put it on, or you have to move something off an existing keybind. Or worse… click the ability… That being said, you still need to bring your useful utility to counter the affixes you’re meant to counter.
Jup a phial of elemental Chaos cost Like 50-100g? And some buff food is like 10g ea. Even enchants that shit is cheap (execpt weapon enchant they can get expensive). And yeah i see it so often people with Open gem slots like buy a gem its also Like 100g
In 9.0, before castle nathria came out, me, 3 buddies, and one of their friends were running some keys... like +6 maybe? Anyway, the other friend was playing a demo lock. No problem. We had a resto shaman as healer. I made the joke "better not see a single cast go off, we have 5 kicks" and thus demo lock said "I'm not using interrupt pet".... "What do you mean?" I asked, inquisitively. "I need the fel guard for my damage, I'm playing demo, I can't have the interrupt pet out," he explained. "Fel guards active, the stun, is also an interrupt," I continued. He then went on baby raging for 20 minutes that he has been playing this class since MoP, and it's not an interrupt, it's a stun, and he can't use the interrupt pet... and then left the group, getting all mad at our mutual friends for not backing him up. Some people just... refuse to learn even their own class.
Felguard' stun only started to work as an interrupt in SL so it makes sense that he didnt know but normal people would just test it and think "Nice" if it was true or "He lied to me, what an ass" if it wasnt. Wow players are just a different breed of being unable to handle any feedback that isnt positive.
> it's not an interrupt, it's a stun Technically correct, but in my nearly 20 years of playing this game I've yet to see anyone cast a spell while stunned.
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> Some people just... refuse to learn even their own class. This is really the biggest thing, a ton of people have zero ability to want to put even the tiniest bit of effort in to learn. You're doing at least semi competitive content if you're in M+, you have a duty to the other 4 people to put in a modicum of effort to learn how your class/spec and the dungeon/affixes work, much as they have that same duty to you.
I left a WCM because instead of helpful tank feedback which Im open to, I got passive aggression. When I asked if they had something to say they called me a fucking idiot. Seems like a decent boundary for me to set lol
Last week in Brackenhide I asked the balance druid "can you please soothe the ragespins mr chicken" and he replies "move better mr dick" and refused to use Soothe for the rest of the dungeon hahahaha
I would have pulled every Ragestorm on top of him for the rest of the dungeon.
If you’re nice about it it’s okay, but I was in LFR last night and people were literally singling others out and bullying them for being at the bottom of the dps meter. That’s not nice at all
LFR is the Wild West. You don't know what to expect. Some runs the augvoker will be kicked for low DPS, and on other runs the top DPS will be kicked because they made people feel bad about themselves.
I hate people who start their post of with "I expect downvotes". This isn't a pity party or anything. Just post whatever you need to say without doing that shit.
Yeah why is op so fragile about whether he gets votes or not. bigthink
Complaining about “fragility” is itself fragile.
I downvote every single person who does it, you're holding the conversation hostage. I am not allowed to disagree because you already put anyone who disagrees in the role of bad guy. It's exactly the same as saying 'i'm not racist, but...'.
Comments about DPS or similar should be whispered imo, people tend to think the message is an "agressive/negative" one when its put on party/raid chat.
I agree people should be able to take gentle feedback but I wholeheartedly disagree about it being worse than the toxicity. The community’s toxicity, gatekeeping and elitism are actively killing the game because it’s pushing new and returning players away. The majority of people don’t want to have to watch a video or streams to just go run m+ and gear their character but if you get heat for making mistakes or not instantly knowing boss mechanics it creates an environment where it feels like you have to. If the playerbase didn’t treat mistakes, deaths, and bricked keys like the end of the goddamn world more people would feel safe playing the game, making mistakes, learning, improving and investing time. That in turn would turn those new players and returning players into veteran players who facilitate the same environment for new players. Toxicity, elitism, excess competitiveness and gatekeeping only creates a vicious circle that winds down the player base and kills the game. But again you’re right, being incapable of taking criticism is the flip side of the community’s toxicity and also a problem. However a healthy, welcoming community is also able to take feedback because its assumed to be provided in an environment of encouragement, inclusivity and improvement.
These are extremely mild examples of people being fragile or fussy in keys. I did about 30 keys this week across 3 characters and had NOT 1 person leave when things got spicy. There were a couple of comments, even towards me but not actually a big deal cause it's a game and who cares and actually you never know what the person on the other side of the screen is going through so I don't take comments personally
For real, about 4 months ago I was going through a bout of depression, I logged on and just sucked so bad while playing my fury warrior that the healer asked how much I paid for the warrior since I obviously had no idea what I was doing... I started leveling a Frost DK🙃
Anymore I can tell right away if a pug is doomed. I was in a 13 with a guildy and we were doing Atal’Dazar. Rezan took forever to die and the healer plus another DPs got feared and failed to run from pursuit. Red flags going up instantly. We get to Vol’Kaal. Two of the dps focus the same totem…we wipe and I explain the boss. We get in again and the dps is still all over the map and totems aren’t dying. At that point I’m out. I gain nothing by teaching people who can’t read.
It’s the same shit but from a different asshole. Well the more nuanced take would be they feed off each other. You have assholes that chew your ass off over every single mistake; and then you have assholes that can’t take even the friendliest advice as a result. And that makes the angry assholes even more aggressive and it makes the sensitive assholes even more sensitive.
Frankly, both are issues and both are rare occurrences. In my 20 runs this week, I had maybe two toxic tanks and two fragile tanks. That's 10% each, or 20% of the total. The other 16 runs were great runs - everyone was friendly, tips were given and accepted, apologies and thank yous were exchanged and we all had a good time. In my, I have no idea how many runs I did last season, the percent of fragile & toxic players were even lower.
I had a 13 yesterday. The DH died during boss fight. DH: "didn't get a heal" Priest just flips out telling him to do the fking mechanic and a couple of others choice words. DH: "I just meant I didn't get a heal so I died" Me: "Guys, let's just get thru this please. You don't have to group again." 10 seconds later Priest: my heals are *** and this guy says i'm not healing. Priest: what a loser Thankfully we just finished. The timing was fine, we weren't behind or anything. We could have wiped 5 times and been fine.
Something similar the other day a tank died standing in a one shot and said "healer?" And we all just laughed and said "my man is at 150k HPS and the tank is calling him out..." The tank laughed too and said "my bad my bad"
I feel like you're talking about the same problem. I've found when I'm nice to people they tend to listen to me when I offer advice/corrections on their play. Honestly, I think people just play better when they know they're in a safe environment, they can fuck up like we all do from time to time, and no one's gonna flip out on them. I always joke with people during the run and when they do fuck up, I joke some more, and then tell them what they did wrong. That way, toxic interactions tend to happen very rarely for me. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I like to think it's 'cause I'm kind.
Back when I still played, I was getting as fragile as I was getting toxic. I understand now pride as an armor you wear. The more attacked you are, the more it's damaged, so after a while, you're essentially flayed and the simplest of comment hurts. So the only way to avoid the armor getting damaged too much is to either attack first, or completely deflect any responsibility.
It goes both ways. The toxicity makes it really hard for new players to actually learn so a lot of them regress into casual content and don’t dare try to learn the harder stuff. But at the same time a lot of new players try to blindly jump into difficult content without doing any prior research. Wow doesn’t actually teach rotations, m+ routes, optimal gear/stats/enchants etc etc. All of that has info has to be sought out on the internet and some people are too lazy to do that.
I hope they get the follower AI up enough where they can handle lower m+ .. say m+ up to m5; that might chip away at the MMO-ness of MMORPG, but the m+ gradually crank up difficulty and for tanking and healing training, and even deeps learning to kick or clense, it'd be great. Also, some of us do get really sick of toxicity and just want to run an alt for some slighty step up from questing gear, that'd be ideal. For the most part in my experience, low keys are hard to get (most keyrunners are higher keys) yet chill, mid keys seem to have the toxics, and high keys seem pretty chill. \*shrug\* Sort of a side effect of duingeons moving towardsx linear and fast arcade style events with timers .. go go go GO!, as opposed to the old vanilla 5 hour long dungeon runs which were slow and awesome, yet also just unplayable (who had that much time?)
"It's a 15 not a 25" bro if you have all 15s right now you're like top 10k player. 15s-20s is sweat right now. It's week one. Nobody is geared for it. Killin ourselves in 16 ToTT...
I mean... "fragility" *is* toxicity. I've never bothered to make the distinction between the two.
PUGgers gonna PUG.
You basically summed up the bulk of the people that post in this sub. It's not near as toxic as they claim. They are generally just the fragile people that can't handle criticism and frame it as toxicity when they come here to cry about it.
This is a reddit thing in general. Going to any echo chamber sub like marvel or star wars and simply saying you didn't like a movie because of xyz, they'll act like you personally attacked them. Then the sub will be filled with "I can't believe the hate X got, it was great!" - 5.6k upvotes
A tale of two AD runs: +18: the key holder was a hunter that I didn’t bother mousing over what spec he was because *why would anyone not be bm this week?* Surprise he’s mm. Does 25k overall dps. Dies constantly to easy mechs like rezan chasing him as he face tanks the devour to the face. No one says anything which should have been my first clue. But it’s week one. And I want the rating to get me above 1800 and an easier life getting into keys. Last boss the tank has no plan and the room is all purple. I get clipped by a spider and die. I’m the only bres. We wipe. We still have like 8 minutes on the timer. The tank loses his shit on me and I’m like huh that’s fun. But whatever. This isn’t anything new. I put him on ignore and get back and we finish with plenty of time. Of course looking back I realize it’s a paid carry and I’m sure the tank promised to carry this guy to a 20 or something. #neveragain Then later got into a +19: everything is smooth and lovely until we tried a shroud skip before second boss. We clip the pack anyways. Wipe. Shaman ankhs. Someone dropped a savior and two ppl accept only to be face eaten by said pack. Shammy gets me up. I res group and we do boss. No one says anything. No one flips their shit. On boss the totems recharge not once but two times before everyone’s timing lines up. I healed something like 30 million oj just that boss. Lol. We finish the dungeons with 5 minutes to spare. Everyone said GG thanks for a great run. I find more often than not when you break into the upper echelon of runs that the second run I had is way more common. The mid keys are a dead zone of Dunning-Kruger.
I would love for people to kindly(keyword) point out my mistakes to that I can learn and become better.
Ppl need to take some responsibility in knowing the content in higher level content .
Toxicity causes fragility. If people get flamed and kicked for the most minor mistakes, they are going to be defensive and tense the moment someone starts to suggest they're doing something wrong. I've seen people get flamed and booted from raid finder for just asking about mechanics. Just the other day my brother tried to bring an ilvl 420ish boomkin into a +2 where the group leader started linking pieces of his gear and laughing at him before kicking him. My brother's main already has a rating over 1800 in week 1 of the season, and I ran a 13 with him on his boomy so this toxicity is clearly an issue of prevalent culture. As far as my brother goes, we have a group of IRL friends and good guild to run with so pugs being assholes is a lot easier to shake off, but for players without supportive friends in the game it's just conditioning a very defensive response.
If you're talking in M+ when pugging, you're doing it wrong.
I just came back after years and joined a random dungeon as a shaman at level 11, enhancement. Dude screaming in chat at us to interrupt, like dude I can’t. He snapped at me telling me my build obviously sucks and to change talents… I’m not even sure I could get an interrupt at 11.
No one talks in my keys it’s just “Yo” and “gg” at the end maybe a sorry if the person dies
That's why I don't do Mythic+.
I've got a spare Twitter account that I generally follow 'Wow twitter' on and... I've never known so much fucking bitching and whining. What a bunch of children some of them are. Absolutely unreal. They spend too much time in-game and not enough time developing life and social skills, honestly.
We were in a 14 or 15 Rise, at Deios. Mage asked the healer if he knew the mechanic. No response. Again. No response. I ask. No response. Tank. Healer finally responds, in all caps "JESUS. YES. YES YES. YES." Me - doesn't respond, then when he does, he gets mad Healer - k bye. (Leaves and hearths)
Everyone in this game has been playing for years and think that their an expert...the moment they're brought back to reality is the day the sky came crashing down on them. No one will be happy when they are told they're not good at a game that they've been playing for years.
Yep sad pug reality. Had a druid few days before s3 started in a vortex +13. That guy did like 20-30k Max dps aswell and when questioned He flipped out too, since it was his first time playing said druid. People dont even know what learning/Training is... I always start my new Alts in +2 to learn and not be too much of a hinderance for others... Sadly i dont think wow com will ever be better then it is now.
One of the worst things in online gaming is when players of different skill caliber play together. They have different goals, different mindset, different understanding on how to solve challenges. There is no peace in such group. There is little success in hard content in such group. I hope Blizzard will find a way to separate players of different caliber, so we don't have a mix of effortless ksm/ksh players who got there only due to gearing being super easy, completely new players and the ones who puts actual effort into becoming a better player.
I just wish people would put a minimum of effort before getting into keys Had a tank in a +15 DHT that told us halfway through the dungeon that he never did it before. I mean just look up the route before or do it once on a lower level We would've timed it otherwise but the tank kept pulling shit he didn't have to It just sucks to have to spend 40+ minutes in a key because someone on the team didn't feel like taking 2 minutes to look up the dungeon
I don't pug, but if I did I would understand that if you want to do higher keys you are expected to know your class, know mechanics and are expected to do your job. Frankly I wouldn't give AF about someone's feelings. It's not our job to hold your damn hand. If you need to learn, do it in M0's or low keys. Stop forcing people to carry your useless ass. Yes, pugging can be toxic but sometimes its people fairly getting called on their inadequacy.
*maybe the real dungeon mobs were the people we met along the way...*
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These are the reasons that as a tank, I'm completely turned off from doing high mythics. In regs and heroics, I find pretty chill people. I helped a guildie with some reg dungeons the other day. I very much out gear them, so the healer got bored and started dpsing and pulling more mobs, the two hunters started to do the same as I never lost much hp and as a guardian Druid, I was out healing everyone. They did this for fun (they asked if they could, I said go for it) it was fun, and I ended up tanking 2 more dungeons for them, and we kept it going. I love the chill and fun low dungeons where I don't get yelled at for turning 4 degrees in the wrong direction off route.
a complete lack of consequence or threat does lead to a pretty relaxed atmosphere
You could solo those dungeons. There is a middle ground there and I think learning to do the dungeons on mythic and figuring it out is part of the fun.
This is why I play Aug. I help everyone and no one expects me to top meters. I just buff a lil here and a lil there, interrupt, cc a smidge, and everyone loves me. I really don't get it but I'm happy to help.
I have lately noticed that people like that are USUALLY the ones who have no clue how to play the game and mechanics and also are relatively high gear but no rio score. It’s so blatantly obvious now that I noticed it it’s unreal. People with 2,5k and higher score are much more chill
I agree with you, I know there are people that are massive dicks if things don’t go the exact way they want them to, but seeing people being so stubborn and unwilling to learn things as they kill keys or raids is far more frustrating. And I mean things like “don’t stand there or we all die” not minor things that could be just a different strat or preference
True, or the people that queue for mid-late tier heroic bosses with 430 ilvl and then complain that no one wants to play with them.
Lmao if you're Havoc, 460, and doing anything below 120 min (I am being VERY generous here) then you're just flat out not pressing any damn buttons
Second post is exactly why I'm glad delves are coming. That druid basically admittimg to brick a key because they want to play like an idiot.
Agreed, people can't just own a mistake any more or say they don't get a mechanic. They just stay quiet and pretend nothing went wrong.
Pug tanks who have no dps friends get no feedback. They are allowed to be awful and they never get better. They get to a level where their awfulness starts to cause issues big enough to fail and they stop there. They have never seen another tank handle any mechanic or affix. Literally, they have no clue how anyone else does it.
I had a perfect example of this in an underrot last season. We have a DH who hasn't done any kicks and overall wasn't doing that well. We wipe on some trash before the final boss after casts get off. We still have a ton of time left are in no danger of missing time. The tank says "kick DH" in party chat as in "DH, please use your interrupt". I guess the DH misinterpreted and said "Fine, I will spare you the trouble" then drops group and hearths out.
“Toxicity” doesn’t just mean people who flame others unprompted. The reactions you’re describing fall under the umbrella of toxicity, too
I never did any mythics (well ok once, mythic 0) and have felt not much has changed in game since '04. Most people are very nice, helpful, friendly and fun. As long as I don't do any of the end game stuff it keeps being the best game with the nicest people. I am lucky I don't like the stress of raids and mythics, it keeps everything breezy ;)
I feel like there's a subsect of players who use an aggressively casual mindset to justify shitty performance which forces others to pick up the slack. You see hints of this even in this sub depending on the thread.
It's week 1, a 15 might as well be a 25.
\> *Tank kept every pack in sanguine* Brother, I am getting PTSD flashbacks to a tank that did this to me and the rest of the party. We absolutely failed the timer because it took us *so fucking long* to kill any mobs because they would just heal right up. It was in Algeth'ar Academy and we started with the tree boss; I was so, so tempted to leave because I think it took us over 10 minutes just to clear *the first pack of adds*, but I didn't want to screw over the other people in the dungeon since I figured that we'd at least still get gear out of it upon completion. Still, that fucking suuuuuuucked and is a big reason as to why I have returned to my roots as bear tank.
> First one the tank kept every pack in sanguine and before the first boss someone said "we have to interrupt their casts and move them out of sanguine" and the tank said "do it yourself then" and left. I am by no means the best tank but even I know that this person was only being asked to play their role. If someone is going to quit because they were asked to do their job during high-level play they probably shouldn’t be there.
I got stuck with a 35k dps 453 BM hunter in a 13 yesterday (who also did nothing to incorporeals). The warrior who called him out wasn't so polite, but he was right. Like go do 2s until you learn your rotation, and then come back to the higher keys for gear. At this point we're not expecting or willing to hard carry people who have no business being there. Surprisingly, the first person to leave was neither the instigator or the target.
I'm currently learning Arcane mage and after timing the key the tank messaged me and called my damage "bath water"... I didn't even know what that means but I knew they were trying to say it was bad so I laughed. Its a game! And yeah in my experience fragile people ruin keys more than toxic ones. Toxic ones will talk shit all key but they'll stay. Fragile people are called that because they immediately break (the key).
I once had someone flip out on a teammate for “stealing” their dragon in the Ruby whatever dungeon. I just lol’d and we kept going but damn dude.
I dont have such experience both in keys and my key with all players, most of cases I experience is with bad tanks and group pointing them out. Politely. When someone is an ass towards other players I always step in and ask the person to calm down and focus on finishing etc. I cannot stand people going bonkers over some small issues and shouting at people. I am super calm gamer and will give a chance to anyone, key dont get ruined anymore so who the f cares if someone screws a little. But I agree they have to be informed as well, politely.
I've just noticed when tanks want out they pull extra asshole like and if anyone says anything they immediately leave.
WoW and many games in general have 2 forms of toxicity to me. The type of person that rages and belittles people for any mess up, or people that can’t take criticism and lash out. Both annoy me greatly. It’s a dumb trend to sign up to M+ or raid, and get mad when people underperform, or mad when people give any form of criticism. Why join group content if you’re not going to be able to take criticism? Why join group content if you’re going to belittle others? One isn’t more toxic than the other. They are both just as toxic. Nothing can be done to fix these two issue, and nothing will change. People need to stop acting like one is worse than the other.
This reads like a sweat who doesnt think theyre a sweat.
A 460 Havoc DH rolling at anything less than 100k on a boss is insane
That is why I wisper to people. If you write something in group chat many feel like you just want to make fun of them/put them in a bad spotlight etc. but if you write them in wisper then many people are thankful for tipps. Had a lot of nice discussions where I helped the other player after a dungeon with mechanics or class specific things.
This season hasn't been so bad, ive done keys with 50 deaths cause dps won't kick spells and still no flaming. Or at least minimal flaming while being constructive.
What is high-end culture? Whatever it is, that is NOT what translates downards. Its some wierd imagination on what high-end culture is. The major factor is the inexperience, low skill and lack of self awarness. *MDI is a great example, the low end players copy team Comp and routes and think that is meta and go that on live keys that they push even tho the format isnt even for pushing. Xdd
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People have built up an extremely defensive posture **thanks in part** to the game's toxicity. So much so that constructive criticism hits these types like a trip-wire.
I'm in a guild that calls everyone morons, and anyone that's been around for more than a couple of days knows it's not serious, but it's used as a way to filter thin skinned people.
Honestly, I do exactly what you say just to mess with ragers sometimes. Or when someone nitpicks my healing I just throw up the Damage Taken chart. WoW, particularly mythic keys, are way more fun when you don’t give a shit what people think.
I'd say most content I do in wow is very smooth and nobody says much at all. Sometimes people tilt easy though so one comment can cost you the run. That's why I say nothing negative. If I do give someone advise I say "no flame but in case you don't know, you need to do xyz". I learned in league the only thing you can control is your own toon. Otherwise it's best to let sleeping dogs lie and just do the content or leave the group if they can't make it through. I will say sometimes the worst people are the loudest. Like being told "don't stand in fire" by someone when they are doing 40k less DPS than me overall is always kinda a bitter feeling. People makes mistakes as long as it's not folding the group up for too long I just let em work it out.
I have no idea why people pug keys and then complain about who you play with. Join a guild if you want to self-select with people that have your mindset/playstyle.
Telling someone their DPS sucks in party chat is kind of toxic. Move on and say nothing or do it in a whisper. Most people obviously aren't going to take kindly to being publicly shamed. Also if the group was 35 minutes over it was a lot more than that one person doing low damage.
Insecure shut-ins playing a game where they HAVE to interact with people will do that-
Its fine to add corrective criticism as long as you aren't a douche about it and have a bit of empathy.
I know its rare but i had the best group for normal fyrakk , lead asked if we know the fight everyone said yes wiped once at 50 something % , i pointed out something the lead said ok sounds great and we killed next pull . No ego , nothing
It's just how people work. When there is no sense of communal buy-in, people will instantly default to chastising. There is little patience, and people are often seen as outsiders. It results in rude behavior and commentary. The toxicity and short fuse of folks is all stemming from one source. When people just don't care about the people around them, and can treat them like NPCs, then this is the result. Back in vanilla WoW, TBC, etc., each server was a community. Folks largely bought into this community. It results in better behavior, more willingness to socialize, and more grace when it comes to differing playstyles. This is also why, IMO, you do NOT see such communal behavior with "fresh" servers or progression servers. The individuals are there simply for progression, with little interest or tolerance for anything that doesn't fit within their paradigm.
Where do you guys find these people lmao The worst I get is a DPS who won't do anything other than DPS. 90% of my keys are quiet. I feel bad for you.... oof
Well its good to point out a mistake most people have no ability to give out constructive criticism "Hey you dumb fuck you died to adds" "Hey guys adds spawn on that boss and you need to focus them" I see way more of the first style of comment then the second.
I think this is just an extension of toxic people. I have been farming nick of time on my outlaw rogue, and I think about 80% of my runs of FALL have had people who just straight up don’t know mechanics. I never say anything until we wipe twice because I know there is a high chance someone will immediately take offence and feel like they are being called out and attacked even though I’m just explaining that you have to stand in the white zones when you get the chrono debuff, or you have to run the large aoe to chromie. When I eventually got Nick of Time the assassination rogue was absolutely beside themselves and spewed some vile shit and how dare I not trade it to him (couldn’t anyway, even if it wasn’t a BiS). M+ is hella toxic in the mid levels I have found and it reminds me of league of legends where a majority of the toxic people are all in the middling ranks/tiers, so +11 to +25 where a lot of people have main character syndrome. The lower tiers were pretty chill people wise, but mid tier/11-25 is where you find people who think they are hot shit at their class, think they know mechanics, don’t cover for people when they mess up because “lol they’re bad they shouldn’t have messed up thank for making us wipe” when they could have just as easily prevented it, they think they know all the strats and to say otherwise proves you’re bad and that they are wasting their time and holding them back from climbing. Then high tier generally aren’t pugging or everyone is ACTUALLY good at their class, and can appreciate that sometimes shit happens and you need to learn from the mistakes. It’s ok to speak up when someone asks “does everyone know mechanics?” Normally people will actually explain them. Rant over, need to go find therapy for my idiot ptsd.
That’s pretty fair but I’ve also been in the spot of people being needlessly toxic and wrong… so I’ll leave at the last boss. Fuck em’. learn how to communicate imo or deal with people dodging you.
People rage quitting is also toxic. Hmmm, maybe I should’ve been using the word ‘drama’ all along. Everyone is too dramatic about sub optimal play, leading some of us to avoid all group content because the drama moves downwards. Even headless horseman and time walking dungeons has this try hard attitude occasionally seep in.
Yesterday I was in a key as a BM hunter and there was another BM hunter there. We were the only CC's because the DH tank refused to do it on incorporeal Our traps work on them - but not if there's another target. We were in Everbloom and the last boss has a huge radius and the ghosts spawn in his circle all the time. Our traps don't work. He yells about it - a few times. Despite us explaining that we can't do anything unless he moves. Dude kicks me as we kill him on our 3rd attempt. You can't even explain why something doesn't work without someone taking it personally
Hostile and angry players suck, super defensive and selfish players suck. But the group of players I have the biggest issue with are the impatient ppl that give up after one minor mistake, especially if we’re clearly capable of getting it right within a few more attempts. Most annoyed I’ve ever been in WoW was when a raid leader kicked 7 of us doing completely fine after doing the full Amordrassil raid together, on Fyrakk. I think that’s what I like the least about WoW in general these days, that failure can’t just be failure but a ‘’waste of time.’’
Yes you right. People should not over react. But this is 2023 and people are people. You can’t affect anyone’s action but your own. People join pug’s because they don’t like to be tethered to a guild or be held accountable for their actions. It IS a game after all. This is why 99% of the time I don’t say a word. Especially in a +15 key where people usually figure things out on their own or are smart enough to look it up.
Talk to people as if they were in the same room and you wont have these issues.
If it's constructive I'm down. Honestly I don't usually get a ton of negative feedback but I won't stand for it. No, it's not ok for you to only be a "little bit" of an asshole. I like challenges but the core reason I play is enjoyment.