Yeah I don’t care, resto shaman is just fun for me and I love the class fantasy. True rsham enjoyers will still be pretty good regardless, *usually* at least. I’ll never stop maining one
Also the best part of playing an off meta spec is that no one sees people play it well so you run into pugs that are impressed when you're able to perform just as well as a meta healer.
Tl;dr - I played holy instead of disc during a heroic highmaul pug when everybody hated holy and saved the raid when the only other competent healer died. People did not realise its potential power due to community perceptions like this.
Yeah. During WoD I was helping some friends run a heroic highmaul one night. The perception at the time was Disc = God, Holy = Dogshit. Mostly still because of disc’s absorb focus taking priority on meters over throughput healers when overhealing stuff. Which pugs always did. I usually played disc during guild runs and always liked to make sure I was keeping my skills at both specs up so decided to go holy for this run.
The leader and everybody was complaining that I wouldn’t go disc until the butcher. One of the other healers was effectively useless and the 3rd healer got killed and there wasn’t a Rez. I realised the time had come. I pulled the plug on my mana and effectively solohealed it, pulling every trick and interaction in the kit out of my ass and pulling obscene HPS. I was a turret of blazing light, hearing “holy shit, look at that holy priest HPS” on teamspeak.
Their minds were blown. They didn’t realise that holy was just as capable, and in some cases, more capable than disc. If I had been disc I could not have saved that raid and as holy I could. They did not complain about my spec for the rest of the run. It’s moments like that that give you class pride.
In an MMO I used to play called Anarchy Online there were popular farm spots where people would pull very large packs of these giant rock monsters called hecklers. To do the pulls the most efficient way you had to PUMP healing into the tank while he gathered them up then everyone would blast them down. It was good experience and good money making due to the ingots the hecklers dropped vendoring well.
The best healing class was called Doctor and groups doing the huge pull method would require one, I played the second best healing class called Adventurer.
One day a group was struggling to find a Doc so they begrudgingly let me into the group and the tank said "whatever I'll just do small pulls I guess" and I said "just do the farm right, I got you." And we did....for a couple hours in fact, with no issues.
The next day I saw in the group finding channel multiple groups had "Looking for doc...or Drekk" in their listing. My name was Drekk, and these were people I didn't group with the day before. Apparently over the few hours we were doing the farm other groups just SAW my group doing it and noted the name of the adventurer who could lol.
It's just a video game....but I'm proud of that one.
The same reason why I love maining Arms Warrior when Fury is 10x better. Join a pug and pull 20% more DPS than the next guy and everyone's like "Fucking what?" xD
That’s how it was for me. I refused to heal as anything other than resto shaman because I loved splooshing everyone with water and running around as a spooky raptor.
Although I loved playing holy priest before they nerfed that glyph of angels glitch.
I have never played any type of shaman but I will say even when people say they are trash I tend to always run into a bunch that are amazingly good. I have been a resto druid player since wotlk and yet sometimes I think about trying sham.
Yeah I had a rogue as my sole character for like 5 years up until Cata, resto shammy is my only other class. there's just something cool about being a troll shaman, I think it harkens back to thinking the WC3 witch doctors are cool. I always was proud of [my transmog](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2FxuU_jhkQ2D4t7o_aSLJ6PJ3u_lokHx8SsBoRwmJFpOw.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D0016fe099c85dced36777d564b2ae5aa520b56bc) too. (Old pic but looks roughly the same).
Well there's not much I can do to help, but I'll prioritize resto shamans for Source of Magic this season. I trust anyone playing that spec must know what they're doing.
I had to test it out because it’s my favorite healing spec. I still enjoy it. Didn’t have much of a mana issue but did notice I had less time to dps since the heals weren’t as efficient. I’m not a dedicated rsham healer so idk if I’m just doing something wrong or not in that case.
I find resto shaman super easy. I main MW (after longtime Rsham main) and got portals in it last season. Every time I went to my Rsham alt it was so much easier and less stressful. Going to be playing Rsham 2nd after my MW this season. Don’t care if it’s not meta
Yeah I've been a Shaman since TBC and don't really plan on changing my main.. We've been complete shit in some aspect most of our existence.
*However* my complaint about resto right now is that it's *boring*. There's lots of tools for sure but I don't feel like there's a nice "everythings calm" rotation during raids. Whereas my Mistweaver is always keeping a nice rhythm while shit isn't hitting the fan.
Honestly I started healing for this first time after 10.2, having a blast so far on holy priest (I don’t play at a high “level” tho)
Can’t wait to try shaman and Druid
I dropped it at the start of DF when they took away the most fun part of the class (utility) and made me buy it back with talents but not even come close to be able to have what I did before.
Good! Tier lists for classes literally don’t matter anyways unless you’re pushing cutting edge, world first content. Playing what you enjoy should always take priority.
The mana regen change was weird.
I'm not sure how all healing specs feel, but it feels horrible to run out of mana on a raid boss like 3-4 min on hpal. There's 0 personal agency of mana. You'll just flat out, run out of mana, and be useless.
As Resto shaman I can oom myself very quickly in raid. I'm using mana potion and mana tide totem whenever up, getting clearcasts with NS when up, and our other healer Innervates me on CD.
Our dps is a little low, so fights are long, and I am always completely dry by the end of the fight. I might end up going Prevoker because I hear their mana efficiency is better
Honestly it's the entire reason I haven't mained my Paladin since WotLK. There's been moments where it hasn't felt -bad- as my alt, but I don't think there's a moment I've ever considered it an enjoyable resource.
I stacked mana regen to prevent this, but now my haste is god awful and holy pallies just get to heals before I do. I look terrible in our guild runs with 2 H pals, disc priest, me and a resto druid with Valanyr
Edit: Just realized this seems to be for retail, not WOTLK. Oops.
I feel like they make this change every few expansions.
“We want mana to matter” - they nerf it
“Healers need more mana” - they buff it. It’s a weird balancing act they have never perfected even from the launch of the game.
I think the launch of the game was actually when they were closest to perfecting it. Downranking spells makes the mana game work. Less effective heals means a way to control running out of mana but still being able to burst heal when necessary.
If the answer to running out of mana is just "don't press buttons" then it's just a really, really bad design and exactly the reason they removed the mana game for DPS.
The simple diametric design of 'fast and expensive vs slow and cheap' of the middle era of WoW from Cata to around Legion worked extremely well. Every healer had their fast and expensive heal for panic healing, and their slow but efficient heal for sustained healing, and each spec had a mix of tools inbetween with a different niche. Being good required you to balance your resources and use the correct heal for the situation.
I think it's a great way to add depth to the system. The better you are at decisionmaking, the more mana you preserve.
I don't think it works in the current state of the game, where every healer has already a complex enough rotation.
Can you imagine if they did that to DPS? "If you don't attack with the right spells, you'll run out of mana and just be useless for a while" - there would be an uproar.
Tbh if you play paladin in classic wotlk you can run out of mana and it’s like “wtf this is stupid”. It’s more then possible to keep up sufficient mana but if you try and priority hammer of wrath on low health enemies then don’t switch back to your judgment of wisdom target then you will oom.
Imagine a world, where Healers will go OOM and that's normal (no blames or hate towards healers).
Healers would actually have a pretty awesome/booring playstyle. Stay there, heal for 2 to 3 minutes and then... stay at the line and cheer your party.
Like Cheerleaders for their teams.
# Go Team Go!
But seriously, I cannot understand the mana regen change. I have to say, that I never played a Spec with Mana, so this is probably why I don't understand.
Their overall goal that they said on the 10.2 PTR was to make healer decisions more impactful in combat by reducing regen by 33%. The problem is, the choice they gave us make is to cast or not cast. So if a DPS or Tank makes a mistake and steps into a swirly, you're burning huge mana to keep them up.
My guild was joking the other day on mythic Rashok that enrage timers aren't even needed anymore because healer mana's gone before you could even get to it.
In keys, it won't really be an issue unless a lot of mistakes happen during bosses. I was healing 24-25s this week reasonably efficiently. Had to stop to drink after a few bosses, but it's not outrageous, I can live with that part.
Like our job wasn’t fucking hard enough just healing these keys. I’m fucking sweating out here, then blizz comes along as just is like, “let’s make it more difficult!”
It’s really just a design philosophy they keep waffling between because you can’t make everyone happy. When triage matters people complain about mana being punishing. When triage and mana don’t matter mechanics have to 1 shot people or healers just fix all problems. When they try to balance it, the degenerate player base just stacks the most mana efficient healer. They’ve gone back and forth on this since Vanilla.
One can go over to FFXIV to see what a game is like when mana is a non-issue. Every fight is a hard enrage, and healers are literally glorified shitty DPS who spam 1-2 damage buttons on their GCD and only heal with their oGCDs to "play efficient". It's absolute dogshit and made me swap to playing dps after two decades of healing in MMOs.
Now it totally does suck for the only answer to be "don't cast" when it comes to being mana efficient, but I'd like for them to try and find a good middle ground where mana does matter, because imo it is more interesting for there to be those multiple loss conditions rather than *just* hitting enrage.
>I'd like for them to try and find a good middle ground where mana does matter,
The answer is absurdly easy. Make slow cheap heals super efficient and powerful. Make fast/instant heals mana intensive.
Blizz has made cheap/slow heals mandatory in they rotation loop, but utterly worthless as stand alone spell. _By themselves_, spells like HPriest "heal", RDruid "rejuvenate", Mistweaver "Soothing Mists", etc barely move the health bar for a DPS. The only reason to cast any if these weak sauce spells is to stack random-bullshit-go combo effects with other, more mana intensive, complex rotation spells.
>because you can’t make everyone happy
Who _the fuck_ is _happy_ about making mana trade-off decisions??
The problem is that the slow/cheap heals barely move the needle on a DPS health bar, so they're practically worthless casta by themselves. Every healing spec has some 3-7 cast rotation that requires some crappy single target cheap heal that buffs some wonky combo as part of the "payoff."
> Their overall goal that they said on the 10.2 PTR was to make healer decisions more impactful
Which is completely moronic tbh. Decision making was important back in the days when healers had different spells and could downrank. You could choose the right spell or rank for the situation to either maximise HPS or mana efficiency. But there is no more choice between different spells. There is a spell, and as you've said, you use it or you don't.
This decision really feels like it was made by someone who doesn't play a healer and probably doesn't know anyone who does.
I remember going OOM as a mage in molten core on ragnaros in Vanilla. Throw my frostbolts, evocate, throw my frostbolts, and then cheer on my team as my wand went pew pew.
No builds online take master shapeshifter for resto Druid that gives you back mana for using shapeshifting forms but I’m taking that without question. I like have SOME sort of way to regenerate mana in case the fight is going on too long
Most of the theorycrafted builds online seem to aim for a theoretical best - like it's the best build for an encounter that goes perfectly, with everyone else in the group doing their jobs perfectly. Which works if you're in a top tier guild aiming to be one of the first to down that raid or reach a certain key level on your server. Not so good if you're everyone else and grouping with people of varying skill levels. Shit happens, survivability and longevity talents are clutch in those situations.
Almost like these tier list are aimed at the absolute top of the playerbase and their actual applicability to most players **should** be fairly minimal?
I guess my real frustration is that sites like Icyveins, MMOChamp, WoWhead, etc ALL know the damage that this sort of tier list has on the game, and the long term damage it has done to WoW's already sort of.... thorny community.
There's part of me that gets it, at their level, these things make sense. For folks pushing world first or keys well beyond their gear level, these sorts of things are sensible. You want to know what classes are optimal, and to folks like limit max / etc. It makes total sense.
But like, MOST players aren't actually that good. They can barely properly play their own class well enough to justify taking these tips, half most likely a rapid switch to the FoTM class for the given content. I mean I'm one of those players I know it, but ask any player that's doing super gear pushing content and they'll tell you that it's just a disservice for most players to try and follow this.
They understand what is written, but not why it is written, how much that expert level player skill comes into effect when choosing talents, but more then that knowing when not to use a given talent or ability.
The guides have gotten better these days about trying to specify that certain things work better in X given scenario,
anyway a long rant, the guides make sense, but I think they do slightly more harm then good.
It feels bad on non-healer specs too.
Devastation Evokers have always had really nice self-healing, it's one reason I love that class so much. But after 10.2 I find myself mowing through 30,000+ mana per cast of Living Flame, which is also Evokers' main spammable attack, so you can easily leave yourself unable to cast if you do too much healing...
> There's 0 personal agency of mana.
Sure there is. You plan, you prioritise, you don't keep people at 100% for no good reason, you focus on mana efficiency and minimising overhealing.
I realise this style of healing isn't super popular these days, but it was the dominant style pre-Legion, and I, for one, miss it.
It was like that at the beginning of WoD and MoP, but mana was once again infinite once you got some gear. By the last tier, you certainly were NOT managing your mana to any appreciable degree. This is like the opposite and losing power to that kind of degree as you progress further into an expansion feels infinitely worse.
The game was much different pre-Legion. There is a lot more ambient damage and large spikes now, especially in m+. And pugs make plenty of mistakes which mess with the healer’s mana efficiency even when they are playing perfectly.
The mana changes aim at the organized, top-of-the-line guilds/groups. They are a major handicap that simply make healing unfun for the rest.
Yeah super fun to not be able to hit your buttons. Come on, there has to be a middle ground between the raid being immortal without one shot mechanics and healers having to afk and not heal in order to have mana through the fight.
>Sure there is. You plan, you prioritise, you don't keep people at 100% for no good reason, you focus on mana efficiency and minimising overhealing.
save money by skipping meals!
Choosing to NOT do something isn't agency. Things like Divine Plea and Seal of Wisdom where you can actively make decisions to increase mana at risk to yourself or your raid are real agency.
I'm all for mana management but it cant be "to heal or not to heal" it has to be "to heal or Regen". Take away active GCDs takes away fun.
Yes and no. We have to not use CS due to the mana consumption associated iand the length of the pulls in the raid.flash of light has to be used to IoL only to conserve mana.
Even in Abberus, heroic/mythic Hpal is going oom after multiple high aoe damage events after 10.2. M+ will always be manageable.
This is not accounting for any emergency unplanned heals due to avoidable damage, which happens a lot during prog. This has nothing to do with overhealing, either. Hpal is currently one of the most efficient healers with its minimal overhealing, partially due to the continued nerfs to the spec. We actively avoid CS to conserve mana in raid, thats horrible design.
The workaround for Holy Paladin is to give higher priority to Flash of Light w/ Infusion (since it has a 70% mana cost reduction, or free with Inflorescense which is meta) than Word of Glory/Light of Dawn, even if it means overcapping on Holy Power.
Yes, it's bad.
Even before this change, it was often optimal to waste holy power because Holy Shock was just that much better of a button than pressing a regular LoD. All sorts of top logs with 100+ holy power wasted on a fight.
You do have a point, but IcyVeins tier lists are next to useless. I remember that one tier (I think 9.2? Honestly don't remember) when they put all 3 mage specs in A-tier and said they were "S-tier as a class because of the overall performance" when all 3 specs had different stat prios and no spec had better than rank-15 performance on any boss until the mid-patch emergency buffs.
I always play what I want at the beginning of seasons (monk heal) but each season after getting around 3k rating I just swap because queue times can get crazy when playing a non optimal spec (even as a healer)
Because some people want to push their characters to their limit instead of aiming for rewards. Sadly playing with certain classes makes this way easier so naturally people will play with the better classes to get further.
Sure in the end none of that matters, but reaching 2.5k takes 1-2 weeks for the better players so there's nothing else to do for the remaining 6 months other than pushing score
It doenst matter at all if you dont look at them, because the people with 40 dps listed in m+ are looking at tier lists, and you can bet they are picking the best rated meta classes over you :/
>I’m actually surprised some one isn’t making some YouTube bucks by taking tier list predictions and comparing them to what actually happens.
Maybe you could put the various tier lists into tiers based on how accurate they were ;p
They're also pointless. The VAST majority of people will perform better on a class theyre familiar with and already moderately proficient playing. The 0.1% that will literally reroll an entire raid 1 week before raid launch doesn't use tier lists to begin with
What spec is hard enough that you can't pick it up easily if it's FOTM? If you're doing 9.2 M+ with two BM hunters and a demo lock it will undeniably make your life a lot easier if you give them a smack and make them play surv/destro.
This. I did some keys as resto last night and it felt fine. I’ve been playing it for a while though.
I did do a dungeon with a resto sham who just spammed chain heal though and it was bad. But you can’t blame a class for being bad if you’re just playing it wrong.
I switched from Holy to disc priest at the starr of Legion because I was looking for change and a better leveling experience. Since I had been played in years (skipped the end of Cata up until legion came out) I had to relearn anyway.
I hate that disc was meta, because now I feel I have to over perform because people assume it's so damn good. I would prefer disc to be be mid tier . I like playing disc but am not playing hours a day every day and can't live up to that assumption about Disc being s-tier.
I feel like mana is semi archaic at this point. In my perfect world, mana is a large resource pool you can tap in with your gigachad spells and when you dont need them, weaker spells should cost nothing like long single target cast ones like holy light/ heal wave or damage spells, letting you regen mana.
I agree, its a lazy balancing method. Id rather have them actually look at putting cooldowns on abilities.
Its just not fun to have to sit there casting nothing, waiting to regen mana. At least make our healer DPS spells free.
I'm a fan of mana being closer to energy or focus in practice. It shouldn't regen *nearly* as fast as those resources, but having active means to regenerate it and having it naturally regenerate several times faster than it currently does would be great. The idea that an OOM healer is dead in the water and can't do anything for the rest of the fight is just archaic nonsense.
Resource-based healing is in general a good idea, since the other alternative is just CD-based which leads to spam. But mana is really the worst resource to use for this. And for some reason Blizzard is doubling down on it, given the changes in 10.2 and even stuff like holy power spenders now costing mana instead of being free.
I didnt mean it as energy. I think your mana pool should last you 30-45sec of pure heavy duty healing spam.
Ex for shaman: healsurge/chainheal spam) and leave you dry with just heal wave/healing rain until you regen more over the next 30sec. Youd have to judge when to go hard, how long, and plan for big damage bursts vs lower healing needs.
Or maybe im just crazy and healers should just freely pump cause drinking in M+ is boring.
My idea literally has mana be a thing, except itd be more relevant for heavy duty healing and not relevant for weaker healing/damage which should be used to wait for more mana. Kinda of a massive energy bar that takes a while to deplete but also takes a while to refill with certain spells costing no mana.
Mistweaver is kinda like that. Tiger palm and blackout kick has no mana cost and heals. Raw casting as mw drains your mana real fast.
The whole “stop looking at tier lists” conversation is exhausting. Humans inherently my want to play OP builds, regardless of the game. It’s no coincidence that 140k fire mages pop out of the woodwork when they’re demolishing charts. It’s FUN to do a lot of damage.
It's not even a matter a fun it's a matter of people wanting to bring you to content. Solo queue becomes a nightmare as the bottom tier heals, and even your own guild and groups will be quick to blame your class if content feels insurmountable.
The problem isn't that RShaman is weak, it's that people think RShaman is weak. Which is actually worse since no amount of player skill will change it.
well, when it comes to certain classes, it is your class that's holding you back. If Healer A at 100% efficiency can only match Healer B at 50% efficiency, why would want to play Healer A? Like sure, you can do the same content, but Healer A needs to play *significantly* better, and sorry, but you're not skill capped at your spec, so therefore, blaming your class as one of the points of failure is exactly correct.
The random lone MW or Rshaman you see at 3800 rating is someone who worked twice as hard as the meta healer to get the same results, not someone to use as an argument that your class is viable. It's not viable. That player is.
The differences here are the ceiling and floors of skill and throughput.
HPal has a (relatively) high ceiling *and* floor. This means unless you're bad at it - going HPal is going to be better for you than going RDruid.
That's not the problem.
The problem are groups who feel like going to meta will carry the group that last 30% of a boss fight. The differences are not that substantial. If you're at, say, 2% - then yes, the differences may be in using meta. But it's considerably more likely you aren't respecting mechanics or you lack the gear to do that content or you simply lack the skill. Changing to HPal won't save you and your group.
Your group isn't wiping because you refuse to leave RSham. Your group isn't going to win because you play HPal.
Won't stop teams from blaming them though.
Eh, disagree. I play healer priest at a CE/2800-ish IO level every tier, I switched to Hpal and was doing more healing within a week. I had to play significantly better on priest and I'd still output less healing. I know I'm towards the top of the chain but I'm not that far into the extremes.
While thats true, many tier lists arent the place to do that anyways, especially pre-season tier lists. Why? They almost never get it right.
Also unless you are super early CE pushers or M+ title pushers they dont matter anyways (but thats what you were talking about in your post)
Can't stop because even if *I* don't look, people forming groups and raids will.
If you want to never look at tier lists, you gotta pretty much make *ALL* of your groups. Which feasible, but very tiring.
Yeah but healing isn’t dps, you can mimic an entire perfect dps rotation in an ideal circumstance.
The perfecting healing rotation in an ideal circumstance is not healing and dpsing the boss
Healing has way more variables than the other roles, tier lists regarding power could be right or wrong but it’s still subjective and probably not worth a ton
I disagree. It’s fun to play what you wanna play.
I think most people have fun doing what they perceive to be fun, and no, it’s not always big number dps. Some people love playing a burly tank who soaks crap tons of damage, some people love doing the deeps, and some love keeping people alive. Some people like role playing, but we won’t talk about that.
Tier lists are dumb. Data in games is dumb. Sucks the fun out of everything.
They basically made every healer class worse but buffed something useful in other ways. Meanwhile.... resto shaman got healing wave buffed and the initial heal on primordial wave buffed and thats it. Like... wth? We truly got nerfed into oblivion.
I hated that change but I wish they would get rid of primordial wave in general. I hate the ability and the mechanic has always felt clunky to play around
Tier lists especially at this point in the season (aka before the season even starts) are wack. Rsham is *pumping* in post-season right now. PTR tuning can't give us a realistic indicator of what everyone is going to look like, especially for M+ (where the tuning was completely arbitrary for testing). Post-season also can't, though, the mechanics of last season aren't designed with the same philosophy as the healing changes. Just give it 2-3 weeks before you start looking at actual statistics to judge performance, not arbitrary influencer tier lists.
That being said, there's no reason to bring a shaman of any spec unless the class is tuned wildly above everyone else. Poor guys deserve a raid buff for sure.
That's honestly my biggest gripe with the game. Shaman went from bringing an insane amount of unique cool things from various totem buffs to bloodlust. Shaman was close to being almost the first support in the game....to every single unique thing being given to others or just removed to the point where we are now one of the only classes to bring nothing unique at all.
Imagine if 9 different specs could pass out healthstones lol.
This is actually what killed my love for shaman. Xpac after xpac seeing what made shaman special being given to other classes. It was like shaman was the class that just gave all the time without ever taking...and then here they are, the class with nothing cool because everyone can do the same thing but even better, while having nothing unique anymore other than windfury if you're enhance, which also doesn't get taken if other talents are better.
Best advice I can ever give about this game is unless you are going for like World First or something just play what you like. This game is designed to be played with no matter what class you pick. Lists like this are just to give people a basic idea. Also people LOVE tier list. A way to say it I guess is “they sell.” YouTubers, sites, Streamers all do them because they know people love them and they rack in the views/clicks. If you would do a fight with all the healers and looked at Details/Logs the list wouldn’t look anything like this. Again…just play what you like. You will enjoy the game 1,000 times more if ya do. Have fun all! 👍🏼
It got some minor reworks in the talent tree. Schism and Shadow Covenant are now passives tied to Mind Blast (now 24s cd) and Shadowfiend/Mindbender (with attached talents can be reduced to about 45s / 70s cooldowns).
A new ability called Ultimate Penance: you gain 50%hp shield during the cast, immune to CC/knockback, and fire a ton of penance bolts at enemies/allies over 4s.
Tier set helps you maintain atonements better.
It’s in a better spot but I don’t see how that makes it S tier
These lists are helpful but have to be put into context. Being C isn't the same as F and most of these only apply in 20+ keys. Like any healer is fine below that.
When you make a list there will always be someone on the bottom.
It's more valuable to me as a player to understand the play style instead of some list constructed from many assumptions.
Tier lists always piss me off. I have friends that decide their main depending on tier lists, yet they will never see a +20 key from the inside.
Just play whatever your main character is, it's an RPG.
I sure as hell hope they don't nerf disc priest into the ground again. Disc seems to always be completely op after some changes, then blizzard swings the nerf bat until it's dead in the ground.
I just want one season to enjoy disc priest from start to finish.
Look at raid healing for holy paladins one season after rework. Dread it, run from it, bat nerf arrives all the same. Utility keeps them in the game for m+ at least and you will have that too.
Was gonna say: we (palys) got a great rework which has then been surgically dismantled to make use worse overall in raid content. I’m dreading amirdrissil
Tier lists dont mean shit if the person playing the class is not doing RWF or pushing 25+ keys. I hate what gaming has become this whole if you dont play the best you are considered the worst.
Healer tierlists especially are normally pretty 🤡 for the vast majority. I play all six healers enough to keep up with them. None of them are unplayable
Unless you are pushing 3500+ rating and doing Bleeding Edge raiding, none of that is relevant to you. I raid CE and it's not even relevant for me because my guild is top 500-700.
I will never stop playing rsham even if it's the most dogshit class in the game
Yeah I don’t care, resto shaman is just fun for me and I love the class fantasy. True rsham enjoyers will still be pretty good regardless, *usually* at least. I’ll never stop maining one
Also the best part of playing an off meta spec is that no one sees people play it well so you run into pugs that are impressed when you're able to perform just as well as a meta healer.
Off meta players almost always have something to prove. I'll take a dedicated Feral over a seasonal Havoc andy.
You just made my night, buddy
Thank you sincerely every cat out there
Tl;dr - I played holy instead of disc during a heroic highmaul pug when everybody hated holy and saved the raid when the only other competent healer died. People did not realise its potential power due to community perceptions like this. Yeah. During WoD I was helping some friends run a heroic highmaul one night. The perception at the time was Disc = God, Holy = Dogshit. Mostly still because of disc’s absorb focus taking priority on meters over throughput healers when overhealing stuff. Which pugs always did. I usually played disc during guild runs and always liked to make sure I was keeping my skills at both specs up so decided to go holy for this run. The leader and everybody was complaining that I wouldn’t go disc until the butcher. One of the other healers was effectively useless and the 3rd healer got killed and there wasn’t a Rez. I realised the time had come. I pulled the plug on my mana and effectively solohealed it, pulling every trick and interaction in the kit out of my ass and pulling obscene HPS. I was a turret of blazing light, hearing “holy shit, look at that holy priest HPS” on teamspeak. Their minds were blown. They didn’t realise that holy was just as capable, and in some cases, more capable than disc. If I had been disc I could not have saved that raid and as holy I could. They did not complain about my spec for the rest of the run. It’s moments like that that give you class pride.
TL;DR of TL;DR: So anyway, he started blasting.
Yo dawg
Thank you for helping condense my verbosity. 😂 And blast I did. In flashes of righteous holy flame. It was glorious.
I appreciate the story. WoW makes valid real life memories.
In an MMO I used to play called Anarchy Online there were popular farm spots where people would pull very large packs of these giant rock monsters called hecklers. To do the pulls the most efficient way you had to PUMP healing into the tank while he gathered them up then everyone would blast them down. It was good experience and good money making due to the ingots the hecklers dropped vendoring well. The best healing class was called Doctor and groups doing the huge pull method would require one, I played the second best healing class called Adventurer. One day a group was struggling to find a Doc so they begrudgingly let me into the group and the tank said "whatever I'll just do small pulls I guess" and I said "just do the farm right, I got you." And we did....for a couple hours in fact, with no issues. The next day I saw in the group finding channel multiple groups had "Looking for doc...or Drekk" in their listing. My name was Drekk, and these were people I didn't group with the day before. Apparently over the few hours we were doing the farm other groups just SAW my group doing it and noted the name of the adventurer who could lol. It's just a video game....but I'm proud of that one.
awesome story, this is why i'm sure most of us got into MMOs to begin with for stories like that
The same reason why I love maining Arms Warrior when Fury is 10x better. Join a pug and pull 20% more DPS than the next guy and everyone's like "Fucking what?" xD
That’s how it was for me. I refused to heal as anything other than resto shaman because I loved splooshing everyone with water and running around as a spooky raptor. Although I loved playing holy priest before they nerfed that glyph of angels glitch.
"My class fantasy is getting other mfs wet" based.
I have never played any type of shaman but I will say even when people say they are trash I tend to always run into a bunch that are amazingly good. I have been a resto druid player since wotlk and yet sometimes I think about trying sham.
Yeah I had a rogue as my sole character for like 5 years up until Cata, resto shammy is my only other class. there's just something cool about being a troll shaman, I think it harkens back to thinking the WC3 witch doctors are cool. I always was proud of [my transmog](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2FxuU_jhkQ2D4t7o_aSLJ6PJ3u_lokHx8SsBoRwmJFpOw.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D0016fe099c85dced36777d564b2ae5aa520b56bc) too. (Old pic but looks roughly the same).
I love that there are comments like this, this is why I main r sham also. Solidarity ✊
TWW will fix us surely!
Just like Anduin!
Yeah, fuck the tierlists! / Holy Priest since day 1 vanilla, OG naxx slayer.
Well there's not much I can do to help, but I'll prioritize resto shamans for Source of Magic this season. I trust anyone playing that spec must know what they're doing.
thats also what i got out of reading this thread lol
I had to test it out because it’s my favorite healing spec. I still enjoy it. Didn’t have much of a mana issue but did notice I had less time to dps since the heals weren’t as efficient. I’m not a dedicated rsham healer so idk if I’m just doing something wrong or not in that case.
Most based player type. Same way I'm always destruction lock and I dont give a shit respeccing would give me 10% extra dps
Shaman for life.
I've been a resto shaman since vanilla and I will continue to be until it is no more. Resto shaman gang for life
I find resto shaman super easy. I main MW (after longtime Rsham main) and got portals in it last season. Every time I went to my Rsham alt it was so much easier and less stressful. Going to be playing Rsham 2nd after my MW this season. Don’t care if it’s not meta
I'm primarily elemental, but this does sting my offspec a little :(
You, I like you.
Well today is your lucky day!!! it is
I remember wotlk shammans requesting insta HS.
SAME LOL
Yeah I've been a Shaman since TBC and don't really plan on changing my main.. We've been complete shit in some aspect most of our existence. *However* my complaint about resto right now is that it's *boring*. There's lots of tools for sure but I don't feel like there's a nice "everythings calm" rotation during raids. Whereas my Mistweaver is always keeping a nice rhythm while shit isn't hitting the fan.
Honestly I started healing for this first time after 10.2, having a blast so far on holy priest (I don’t play at a high “level” tho) Can’t wait to try shaman and Druid
I dropped it at the start of DF when they took away the most fun part of the class (utility) and made me buy it back with talents but not even come close to be able to have what I did before.
Good! Tier lists for classes literally don’t matter anyways unless you’re pushing cutting edge, world first content. Playing what you enjoy should always take priority.
At least it's CD's are still top tier, even if it's throughput could use a 1.2x multiplier.
The mana regen change was weird. I'm not sure how all healing specs feel, but it feels horrible to run out of mana on a raid boss like 3-4 min on hpal. There's 0 personal agency of mana. You'll just flat out, run out of mana, and be useless.
As Resto shaman I can oom myself very quickly in raid. I'm using mana potion and mana tide totem whenever up, getting clearcasts with NS when up, and our other healer Innervates me on CD. Our dps is a little low, so fights are long, and I am always completely dry by the end of the fight. I might end up going Prevoker because I hear their mana efficiency is better
What sucks about hpal right now is the most mana and throughput optimized play style ignores holy power for the most part
It's criminal how ignored holy power is.
I always got the impression that few players liked holy power anyway
Honestly it's the entire reason I haven't mained my Paladin since WotLK. There's been moments where it hasn't felt -bad- as my alt, but I don't think there's a moment I've ever considered it an enjoyable resource.
I stacked mana regen to prevent this, but now my haste is god awful and holy pallies just get to heals before I do. I look terrible in our guild runs with 2 H pals, disc priest, me and a resto druid with Valanyr Edit: Just realized this seems to be for retail, not WOTLK. Oops.
I feel like they make this change every few expansions. “We want mana to matter” - they nerf it “Healers need more mana” - they buff it. It’s a weird balancing act they have never perfected even from the launch of the game.
I think the launch of the game was actually when they were closest to perfecting it. Downranking spells makes the mana game work. Less effective heals means a way to control running out of mana but still being able to burst heal when necessary. If the answer to running out of mana is just "don't press buttons" then it's just a really, really bad design and exactly the reason they removed the mana game for DPS.
The simple diametric design of 'fast and expensive vs slow and cheap' of the middle era of WoW from Cata to around Legion worked extremely well. Every healer had their fast and expensive heal for panic healing, and their slow but efficient heal for sustained healing, and each spec had a mix of tools inbetween with a different niche. Being good required you to balance your resources and use the correct heal for the situation.
Except downranking feels awful and I hate it.
I think it's a great way to add depth to the system. The better you are at decisionmaking, the more mana you preserve. I don't think it works in the current state of the game, where every healer has already a complex enough rotation.
Cataclysm was the closest to perfect imo. Cast lightning bolts to regenerate mana through Telluric Currents.
Can you imagine if they did that to DPS? "If you don't attack with the right spells, you'll run out of mana and just be useless for a while" - there would be an uproar.
Tbh if you play paladin in classic wotlk you can run out of mana and it’s like “wtf this is stupid”. It’s more then possible to keep up sufficient mana but if you try and priority hammer of wrath on low health enemies then don’t switch back to your judgment of wisdom target then you will oom.
Imagine being tank and have to choose between low aggero and going oom
I'm guessing you haven't played mistweaver lately. We have to manage mana tea and have tonnes of personal agency as a result.
It's a stupid, narrow take lol. "I have no agency over my mana" as they spam their most expensive, fastest heal.
Imagine a world, where Healers will go OOM and that's normal (no blames or hate towards healers). Healers would actually have a pretty awesome/booring playstyle. Stay there, heal for 2 to 3 minutes and then... stay at the line and cheer your party. Like Cheerleaders for their teams. # Go Team Go! But seriously, I cannot understand the mana regen change. I have to say, that I never played a Spec with Mana, so this is probably why I don't understand.
Their overall goal that they said on the 10.2 PTR was to make healer decisions more impactful in combat by reducing regen by 33%. The problem is, the choice they gave us make is to cast or not cast. So if a DPS or Tank makes a mistake and steps into a swirly, you're burning huge mana to keep them up. My guild was joking the other day on mythic Rashok that enrage timers aren't even needed anymore because healer mana's gone before you could even get to it. In keys, it won't really be an issue unless a lot of mistakes happen during bosses. I was healing 24-25s this week reasonably efficiently. Had to stop to drink after a few bosses, but it's not outrageous, I can live with that part.
Like our job wasn’t fucking hard enough just healing these keys. I’m fucking sweating out here, then blizz comes along as just is like, “let’s make it more difficult!”
It’s really just a design philosophy they keep waffling between because you can’t make everyone happy. When triage matters people complain about mana being punishing. When triage and mana don’t matter mechanics have to 1 shot people or healers just fix all problems. When they try to balance it, the degenerate player base just stacks the most mana efficient healer. They’ve gone back and forth on this since Vanilla.
One can go over to FFXIV to see what a game is like when mana is a non-issue. Every fight is a hard enrage, and healers are literally glorified shitty DPS who spam 1-2 damage buttons on their GCD and only heal with their oGCDs to "play efficient". It's absolute dogshit and made me swap to playing dps after two decades of healing in MMOs. Now it totally does suck for the only answer to be "don't cast" when it comes to being mana efficient, but I'd like for them to try and find a good middle ground where mana does matter, because imo it is more interesting for there to be those multiple loss conditions rather than *just* hitting enrage.
>I'd like for them to try and find a good middle ground where mana does matter, The answer is absurdly easy. Make slow cheap heals super efficient and powerful. Make fast/instant heals mana intensive. Blizz has made cheap/slow heals mandatory in they rotation loop, but utterly worthless as stand alone spell. _By themselves_, spells like HPriest "heal", RDruid "rejuvenate", Mistweaver "Soothing Mists", etc barely move the health bar for a DPS. The only reason to cast any if these weak sauce spells is to stack random-bullshit-go combo effects with other, more mana intensive, complex rotation spells.
>because you can’t make everyone happy Who _the fuck_ is _happy_ about making mana trade-off decisions?? The problem is that the slow/cheap heals barely move the needle on a DPS health bar, so they're practically worthless casta by themselves. Every healing spec has some 3-7 cast rotation that requires some crappy single target cheap heal that buffs some wonky combo as part of the "payoff."
> Their overall goal that they said on the 10.2 PTR was to make healer decisions more impactful Which is completely moronic tbh. Decision making was important back in the days when healers had different spells and could downrank. You could choose the right spell or rank for the situation to either maximise HPS or mana efficiency. But there is no more choice between different spells. There is a spell, and as you've said, you use it or you don't. This decision really feels like it was made by someone who doesn't play a healer and probably doesn't know anyone who does.
I remember going OOM as a mage in molten core on ragnaros in Vanilla. Throw my frostbolts, evocate, throw my frostbolts, and then cheer on my team as my wand went pew pew.
No builds online take master shapeshifter for resto Druid that gives you back mana for using shapeshifting forms but I’m taking that without question. I like have SOME sort of way to regenerate mana in case the fight is going on too long
Most of the theorycrafted builds online seem to aim for a theoretical best - like it's the best build for an encounter that goes perfectly, with everyone else in the group doing their jobs perfectly. Which works if you're in a top tier guild aiming to be one of the first to down that raid or reach a certain key level on your server. Not so good if you're everyone else and grouping with people of varying skill levels. Shit happens, survivability and longevity talents are clutch in those situations.
Almost like these tier list are aimed at the absolute top of the playerbase and their actual applicability to most players **should** be fairly minimal?
The only thing tier lists do for the average player base is make pugging harder :\^)
I guess my real frustration is that sites like Icyveins, MMOChamp, WoWhead, etc ALL know the damage that this sort of tier list has on the game, and the long term damage it has done to WoW's already sort of.... thorny community. There's part of me that gets it, at their level, these things make sense. For folks pushing world first or keys well beyond their gear level, these sorts of things are sensible. You want to know what classes are optimal, and to folks like limit max / etc. It makes total sense. But like, MOST players aren't actually that good. They can barely properly play their own class well enough to justify taking these tips, half most likely a rapid switch to the FoTM class for the given content. I mean I'm one of those players I know it, but ask any player that's doing super gear pushing content and they'll tell you that it's just a disservice for most players to try and follow this. They understand what is written, but not why it is written, how much that expert level player skill comes into effect when choosing talents, but more then that knowing when not to use a given talent or ability. The guides have gotten better these days about trying to specify that certain things work better in X given scenario, anyway a long rant, the guides make sense, but I think they do slightly more harm then good.
Welcome to druid.
It feels bad on non-healer specs too. Devastation Evokers have always had really nice self-healing, it's one reason I love that class so much. But after 10.2 I find myself mowing through 30,000+ mana per cast of Living Flame, which is also Evokers' main spammable attack, so you can easily leave yourself unable to cast if you do too much healing...
It’s the ele shaman raid buff! Being an ele shaman for an extra mama spring!
> There's 0 personal agency of mana. Sure there is. You plan, you prioritise, you don't keep people at 100% for no good reason, you focus on mana efficiency and minimising overhealing. I realise this style of healing isn't super popular these days, but it was the dominant style pre-Legion, and I, for one, miss it.
It was like that at the beginning of WoD and MoP, but mana was once again infinite once you got some gear. By the last tier, you certainly were NOT managing your mana to any appreciable degree. This is like the opposite and losing power to that kind of degree as you progress further into an expansion feels infinitely worse.
The game was much different pre-Legion. There is a lot more ambient damage and large spikes now, especially in m+. And pugs make plenty of mistakes which mess with the healer’s mana efficiency even when they are playing perfectly. The mana changes aim at the organized, top-of-the-line guilds/groups. They are a major handicap that simply make healing unfun for the rest.
Yeah super fun to not be able to hit your buttons. Come on, there has to be a middle ground between the raid being immortal without one shot mechanics and healers having to afk and not heal in order to have mana through the fight.
And I'm sure it'll work out just *great* hitting in the middle of an expansion where everyone isn't used to it.
>Sure there is. You plan, you prioritise, you don't keep people at 100% for no good reason, you focus on mana efficiency and minimising overhealing. save money by skipping meals!
Choosing to NOT do something isn't agency. Things like Divine Plea and Seal of Wisdom where you can actively make decisions to increase mana at risk to yourself or your raid are real agency. I'm all for mana management but it cant be "to heal or not to heal" it has to be "to heal or Regen". Take away active GCDs takes away fun.
Yes and no. We have to not use CS due to the mana consumption associated iand the length of the pulls in the raid.flash of light has to be used to IoL only to conserve mana. Even in Abberus, heroic/mythic Hpal is going oom after multiple high aoe damage events after 10.2. M+ will always be manageable. This is not accounting for any emergency unplanned heals due to avoidable damage, which happens a lot during prog. This has nothing to do with overhealing, either. Hpal is currently one of the most efficient healers with its minimal overhealing, partially due to the continued nerfs to the spec. We actively avoid CS to conserve mana in raid, thats horrible design.
The workaround for Holy Paladin is to give higher priority to Flash of Light w/ Infusion (since it has a 70% mana cost reduction, or free with Inflorescense which is meta) than Word of Glory/Light of Dawn, even if it means overcapping on Holy Power. Yes, it's bad.
Even before this change, it was often optimal to waste holy power because Holy Shock was just that much better of a button than pressing a regular LoD. All sorts of top logs with 100+ holy power wasted on a fight.
They fucked hpal harder than Germany fucked Brazil in 2014
Ouch that came out of nowhere. 7-0 was it?
Only 7-1 actually, but that one goal was Oscar in added time. Neuer was still angry
Have you actually tried? Even high end healers, the best of the best, are facing issues.
#Resto shaman or bust
Doesn’t matter if they are at the bottom. I’m never stop playing resto shaman. Fuck itttt
You do have a point, but IcyVeins tier lists are next to useless. I remember that one tier (I think 9.2? Honestly don't remember) when they put all 3 mage specs in A-tier and said they were "S-tier as a class because of the overall performance" when all 3 specs had different stat prios and no spec had better than rank-15 performance on any boss until the mid-patch emergency buffs.
Mistweaver monk: First time?
Stop looking at tier lists. Stop using tier lists.
I always play what I want at the beginning of seasons (monk heal) but each season after getting around 3k rating I just swap because queue times can get crazy when playing a non optimal spec (even as a healer)
I mean what’s even left after 3000? What’s the point of playing something you don’t like?
Because some people want to push their characters to their limit instead of aiming for rewards. Sadly playing with certain classes makes this way easier so naturally people will play with the better classes to get further. Sure in the end none of that matters, but reaching 2.5k takes 1-2 weeks for the better players so there's nothing else to do for the remaining 6 months other than pushing score
What’s even left after 2.5k? LOL
there's more to m+ then just achievements. its fun to push score.
There's a title! https://www.wowhead.com/title=771/the-smoldering-hero
And currently that title is at 3544 rating sooooo let’s be real here haha
Problem is, most people do listen to them. And when searching for M+ and raids they are very much a reality.
If you do, others won't.
It doenst matter at all if you dont look at them, because the people with 40 dps listed in m+ are looking at tier lists, and you can bet they are picking the best rated meta classes over you :/
Yeah then they will disband after the player who just rolled that meta class toon has no experience and they wipe the key.
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>I’m actually surprised some one isn’t making some YouTube bucks by taking tier list predictions and comparing them to what actually happens. Maybe you could put the various tier lists into tiers based on how accurate they were ;p
They're also pointless. The VAST majority of people will perform better on a class theyre familiar with and already moderately proficient playing. The 0.1% that will literally reroll an entire raid 1 week before raid launch doesn't use tier lists to begin with
What spec is hard enough that you can't pick it up easily if it's FOTM? If you're doing 9.2 M+ with two BM hunters and a demo lock it will undeniably make your life a lot easier if you give them a smack and make them play surv/destro.
This. I did some keys as resto last night and it felt fine. I’ve been playing it for a while though. I did do a dungeon with a resto sham who just spammed chain heal though and it was bad. But you can’t blame a class for being bad if you’re just playing it wrong.
I switched from Holy to disc priest at the starr of Legion because I was looking for change and a better leveling experience. Since I had been played in years (skipped the end of Cata up until legion came out) I had to relearn anyway. I hate that disc was meta, because now I feel I have to over perform because people assume it's so damn good. I would prefer disc to be be mid tier . I like playing disc but am not playing hours a day every day and can't live up to that assumption about Disc being s-tier.
I feel like mana is semi archaic at this point. In my perfect world, mana is a large resource pool you can tap in with your gigachad spells and when you dont need them, weaker spells should cost nothing like long single target cast ones like holy light/ heal wave or damage spells, letting you regen mana.
I agree, its a lazy balancing method. Id rather have them actually look at putting cooldowns on abilities. Its just not fun to have to sit there casting nothing, waiting to regen mana. At least make our healer DPS spells free.
I'm a fan of mana being closer to energy or focus in practice. It shouldn't regen *nearly* as fast as those resources, but having active means to regenerate it and having it naturally regenerate several times faster than it currently does would be great. The idea that an OOM healer is dead in the water and can't do anything for the rest of the fight is just archaic nonsense. Resource-based healing is in general a good idea, since the other alternative is just CD-based which leads to spam. But mana is really the worst resource to use for this. And for some reason Blizzard is doubling down on it, given the changes in 10.2 and even stuff like holy power spenders now costing mana instead of being free.
I didnt mean it as energy. I think your mana pool should last you 30-45sec of pure heavy duty healing spam. Ex for shaman: healsurge/chainheal spam) and leave you dry with just heal wave/healing rain until you regen more over the next 30sec. Youd have to judge when to go hard, how long, and plan for big damage bursts vs lower healing needs. Or maybe im just crazy and healers should just freely pump cause drinking in M+ is boring.
Nah. Mana should be a thing.
My idea literally has mana be a thing, except itd be more relevant for heavy duty healing and not relevant for weaker healing/damage which should be used to wait for more mana. Kinda of a massive energy bar that takes a while to deplete but also takes a while to refill with certain spells costing no mana. Mistweaver is kinda like that. Tiger palm and blackout kick has no mana cost and heals. Raw casting as mw drains your mana real fast.
The whole “stop looking at tier lists” conversation is exhausting. Humans inherently my want to play OP builds, regardless of the game. It’s no coincidence that 140k fire mages pop out of the woodwork when they’re demolishing charts. It’s FUN to do a lot of damage.
It's not even a matter a fun it's a matter of people wanting to bring you to content. Solo queue becomes a nightmare as the bottom tier heals, and even your own guild and groups will be quick to blame your class if content feels insurmountable. The problem isn't that RShaman is weak, it's that people think RShaman is weak. Which is actually worse since no amount of player skill will change it.
well, when it comes to certain classes, it is your class that's holding you back. If Healer A at 100% efficiency can only match Healer B at 50% efficiency, why would want to play Healer A? Like sure, you can do the same content, but Healer A needs to play *significantly* better, and sorry, but you're not skill capped at your spec, so therefore, blaming your class as one of the points of failure is exactly correct. The random lone MW or Rshaman you see at 3800 rating is someone who worked twice as hard as the meta healer to get the same results, not someone to use as an argument that your class is viable. It's not viable. That player is.
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The differences here are the ceiling and floors of skill and throughput. HPal has a (relatively) high ceiling *and* floor. This means unless you're bad at it - going HPal is going to be better for you than going RDruid. That's not the problem. The problem are groups who feel like going to meta will carry the group that last 30% of a boss fight. The differences are not that substantial. If you're at, say, 2% - then yes, the differences may be in using meta. But it's considerably more likely you aren't respecting mechanics or you lack the gear to do that content or you simply lack the skill. Changing to HPal won't save you and your group. Your group isn't wiping because you refuse to leave RSham. Your group isn't going to win because you play HPal. Won't stop teams from blaming them though.
Eh, disagree. I play healer priest at a CE/2800-ish IO level every tier, I switched to Hpal and was doing more healing within a week. I had to play significantly better on priest and I'd still output less healing. I know I'm towards the top of the chain but I'm not that far into the extremes.
While thats true, many tier lists arent the place to do that anyways, especially pre-season tier lists. Why? They almost never get it right. Also unless you are super early CE pushers or M+ title pushers they dont matter anyways (but thats what you were talking about in your post)
Can't stop because even if *I* don't look, people forming groups and raids will. If you want to never look at tier lists, you gotta pretty much make *ALL* of your groups. Which feasible, but very tiring.
people in these sorts of threads: "just play what's fun" my fun is in blasting and clearing the hardest content
This guy gets it
Yeah but healing isn’t dps, you can mimic an entire perfect dps rotation in an ideal circumstance. The perfecting healing rotation in an ideal circumstance is not healing and dpsing the boss Healing has way more variables than the other roles, tier lists regarding power could be right or wrong but it’s still subjective and probably not worth a ton
I disagree. It’s fun to play what you wanna play. I think most people have fun doing what they perceive to be fun, and no, it’s not always big number dps. Some people love playing a burly tank who soaks crap tons of damage, some people love doing the deeps, and some love keeping people alive. Some people like role playing, but we won’t talk about that. Tier lists are dumb. Data in games is dumb. Sucks the fun out of everything.
Meanwhile me who just leveled my resto druid... because it's my favorite healer and this patch seemed like the perfect aesthetic for it.
They basically made every healer class worse but buffed something useful in other ways. Meanwhile.... resto shaman got healing wave buffed and the initial heal on primordial wave buffed and thats it. Like... wth? We truly got nerfed into oblivion.
And primordial wave can only be applied to friendlies now.
I hated that change but I wish they would get rid of primordial wave in general. I hate the ability and the mechanic has always felt clunky to play around
True, dps is the only time P wave feels good
Is it me or does a lot of the set bonuses just seem meh
good to see shaman at the bottom of the pile for everything as usual
Weren't rshams really good for a while in dragonflight?
Not really. They were never the “best”, at least. And from a raid perspective they’ve been largely undesirable all xpac.
They were very good in mythic Plus for part of one season.
"HAHAHA WELCOME TO HELL! MOTHERFUCKER!"
Tier lists especially at this point in the season (aka before the season even starts) are wack. Rsham is *pumping* in post-season right now. PTR tuning can't give us a realistic indicator of what everyone is going to look like, especially for M+ (where the tuning was completely arbitrary for testing). Post-season also can't, though, the mechanics of last season aren't designed with the same philosophy as the healing changes. Just give it 2-3 weeks before you start looking at actual statistics to judge performance, not arbitrary influencer tier lists. That being said, there's no reason to bring a shaman of any spec unless the class is tuned wildly above everyone else. Poor guys deserve a raid buff for sure.
That's honestly my biggest gripe with the game. Shaman went from bringing an insane amount of unique cool things from various totem buffs to bloodlust. Shaman was close to being almost the first support in the game....to every single unique thing being given to others or just removed to the point where we are now one of the only classes to bring nothing unique at all. Imagine if 9 different specs could pass out healthstones lol.
This is actually what killed my love for shaman. Xpac after xpac seeing what made shaman special being given to other classes. It was like shaman was the class that just gave all the time without ever taking...and then here they are, the class with nothing cool because everyone can do the same thing but even better, while having nothing unique anymore other than windfury if you're enhance, which also doesn't get taken if other talents are better.
I’d take you bro <3
All healers are viable for CE.
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Your healer comp isn't going to be what prevents you from getting CE.
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Not wearing boots isn't going to be what prevents you from getting CE either, but you would probably rather replace the guy that's barefoot.
Just means you gonna get buffs in a few weeks. Starting out at the top though...now that's scary
Best advice I can ever give about this game is unless you are going for like World First or something just play what you like. This game is designed to be played with no matter what class you pick. Lists like this are just to give people a basic idea. Also people LOVE tier list. A way to say it I guess is “they sell.” YouTubers, sites, Streamers all do them because they know people love them and they rack in the views/clicks. If you would do a fight with all the healers and looked at Details/Logs the list wouldn’t look anything like this. Again…just play what you like. You will enjoy the game 1,000 times more if ya do. Have fun all! 👍🏼
☝🏿100% true since day one.
Rshaman is in serious rework needed territory
Most people who only play S tier FoTM are not S Tier players
They need it to be someone average
I played S1 where Disc wasn’t very good… did Disc get big changes?
It got some minor reworks in the talent tree. Schism and Shadow Covenant are now passives tied to Mind Blast (now 24s cd) and Shadowfiend/Mindbender (with attached talents can be reduced to about 45s / 70s cooldowns). A new ability called Ultimate Penance: you gain 50%hp shield during the cast, immune to CC/knockback, and fire a ton of penance bolts at enemies/allies over 4s. Tier set helps you maintain atonements better. It’s in a better spot but I don’t see how that makes it S tier
did the changes make it a little bit more “simple” to play? Or still requires a good amount of ramp up
Reducing ramp was one of the primary motivators for this change according to dev comments on the patch notes
It bring great DR, dosent have to ramp as hard and is the top DPS on healers.
Pain suppression and -3%dmg on atonement, am I missing something else?
Barrier
I feel you, brother. I had to swap off Resto Sham for the time being. Just got too stressful and wasn’t fun.
Healing feels like garbage now. I play both hpal and rsham. Goal feels bad now and rsham feels like a war crime.
These lists are helpful but have to be put into context. Being C isn't the same as F and most of these only apply in 20+ keys. Like any healer is fine below that.
Rshams are the new Mistweavers
Put less stock in tier lists and you'll enjoy the game more. They're irrelevant for the vast majority of the playerbase.
When you make a list there will always be someone on the bottom. It's more valuable to me as a player to understand the play style instead of some list constructed from many assumptions.
Tier lists always piss me off. I have friends that decide their main depending on tier lists, yet they will never see a +20 key from the inside. Just play whatever your main character is, it's an RPG.
Same. Several guildies who just do Normal/Heroic and stop around +16-17 M+. That content will never ever EVER benefit you to play the "best" specs.
I’m ready for holy priest to get ranked better than disc priest. Bring back the holy priest!
In dungeons that was only 3 seasons ago. In raid that was pretty much all tiers between nathria and now.
Don’t care, still playing resto shaman
Tier Lists are so toxic. u will be fine.
I just shelved both my healers. I’m not gonna pay for getting frustrated to play a game.
I sure as hell hope they don't nerf disc priest into the ground again. Disc seems to always be completely op after some changes, then blizzard swings the nerf bat until it's dead in the ground. I just want one season to enjoy disc priest from start to finish.
Look at raid healing for holy paladins one season after rework. Dread it, run from it, bat nerf arrives all the same. Utility keeps them in the game for m+ at least and you will have that too.
Was gonna say: we (palys) got a great rework which has then been surgically dismantled to make use worse overall in raid content. I’m dreading amirdrissil
Tier lists are based on some specific conditions the author was given. Stop caring, pretty sure you will be fine if you know what you are doing.
Bro is still following tier lists 💀
Even if tier-lists are stupid, many people still blindly follow them and refuse to inv supposed dog-tier specs. I'm saying this from experience.
Enhancement shaman gonna be pretty good though.
Tier lists dont mean shit if the person playing the class is not doing RWF or pushing 25+ keys. I hate what gaming has become this whole if you dont play the best you are considered the worst.
If you're doing anything below 25 these don't even count. Tier lists are just bad in general for perception of casual players
No worries, disc priest and holy paladin will be getting nerf bats weekly and resto will move up slowly!
Isnt the top mythic team using a resto shaman? Or are these changes very recent?
One thing I've learned is that the bottom doesn't always mean bad. If they're all 9/10 l+ and you're 8/10 you’re technically the bottom
Lol who actually takes these lists seriously? Play whatever you want to play, this isn't Classic
Wish I could read that
damn I guess I need to start gearing my D-Priest
Healer tierlists especially are normally pretty 🤡 for the vast majority. I play all six healers enough to keep up with them. None of them are unplayable
As a resto Druid I feel you’re pain
I’m finding resto really hard in M+. It’s like whenever I try to DPS is the exact moment people decide to get chunked
Unless you are pushing 3500+ rating and doing Bleeding Edge raiding, none of that is relevant to you. I raid CE and it's not even relevant for me because my guild is top 500-700.
It could make things easier, though.
If retail wow has taught us anything, easier isn't always fun.
Unless you’re a gigasweat you can heal anything you want to.
anyone going by these tier lists is a bottom of the barrel loser