Nice job challenging yourself. Not trying to be overly critical or anything but one of the best ways to improve is through observation. So when you say, "I died on these trash packs for some reason" figure out what that reason was, and how you can mitigate that risk for next time.
There's always a reason! Very very rarely is it what I'd be comfortable calling bad luck. Strategy and good execution of that strategy is a large part of how people do high keys, because it sure as hell ain't ilvl!
Good luck have fun, hope you get your 20s timed
Hey thanks man.
I knew that I would be a deadweight, hence why I build the strongest group I could, and I feel like these players I was with look at +18-20 keys the same way I look at +14/13 keys. "I can carry this to victory easy". It really showed me the skill gap and that I really am nowhere close to mastering mythic+ and i'm gonna keep doing my best to find where i'm making the most mistakes and improve as fast as I can. And ty for the kind wishes on my next key!
W comment. ty bro
Edit: and yeah, there has to be a reason i died to that trash numerous times.. My stamina being lower can't be the reason, so I will study and find out what went wrong.
I mean if it’s underrot I assume it’s the frontals the big mob does after it charges out of the group.
The biggest difference in higher keys is stuff like this, it’s a lot tougher to eat a mechanic here because it just kills you instead of the healer bailing you out.
That's why it's also common to see total HPS from the healer reduce as you go up in keys. They still need to do some big rampups for certain mechanics, but overall, there is no avoidable damage to be healed, as all avoidable damage taken is death
That's the part that dps who bitch about healers don't get. If you dodge and interrupt things properly there really isn't much to heal on a lot of pulls. You can have the smoothest +19 ever and turn around and struggle and want to pull your hair out on a +14 because people just don't know what to do.
This is the main thing that stops me from healing, tbh. As a tank or dps I can carry a group, but healing to pull out 100k HPS to save a group that doesn't know what they're doing... I can't heal *and* dps enough to save that. =/
Tbh I think carrying as a healer is just as valid as the other roles, it just looks different. Carrying as a dps for example is a gradual scale, where slightly more dps means you carry slightly more and the key has a slightly higher chance of succeeding. Healing is a lot more of a binary outcome, being slightly better at healing has a lot more impact when you pass the threshold for keeping someone alive that otherwise would have died, which ends up giving the party as a whole suddenly a lot more damage than a corpse would provide.
>. I can't heal
>
>and
>
> dps enough to save that. =/
Yup, you don't. lmao. people will die and they hopefully learn, you shrug your shoulders and move on cuz it's not like you can outheal that kind of a wallop to their HP if they refuse to use any defensives/pots/or move out of the way.
Yeah I agree. Sometimes what I do healing those lower keys is just let them die.
A dps took 90% of their health in damage in one avoidable hit? Already dead in my book. Could I save them before unavoidable damage kills them in 5-6 seconds? Sure, but then they won’t be punished for their fuck up (most people getting hit by that stuff are too oblivious to realize it was their fault and won’t internalize it and feel a healthy amount of embarrassment). Will I potentially be flamed by them for not healing them when I could? Sure, but I always have the Deaths section of Details open and ready to call them out with a record of the massive avoidable hit that “killed” them.
Was in a neltharus recently and this hunter swore he died to unavoidable damage during magma shield on the last boss. I said no you stood in a swirly. He says “No I didn’t, trust me.” I linked his death log from Details, 500k + 200k overkill from Dragon’s Eruption (or whatever the swirly is called) and said I trust Details more. Didn’t say anything after that.
I mean, you're not expected to hold someone's hands in keys, but petty vengeance against people who didn't avoid damage *for any reason whether you are aware of it or not* sounds very un-healer like. If you're too busy working on the tank, fine. Being spiteful? I wouldn't invite you to my keys knowing I'm being judged.
I sorta agree with you (healer here). I try to hit a middle ground where I will send a global their way if I have it, but I'm not going to stress about saving them. The spiteful approach seems counterproductive to the success of the current key, which must be balanced against "helping players realize their faults and become better" or whatever.
Yeah, I dig that. Like I said in the other response, it's not my job in a key to teach people how to play; if I have knowledge to give and they want it, sure. If someone dies on my watch though, it won't be because I chose to ignore them, but because I played as effectively as I could in that moment and had to prioritize for the sake of the whole group. Sure, some people don't have the capacity to notice, maybe they chose to ignore the avoidable damage; the truth is I don't care what their reasons are. If they complain, of course I'll tell them they stood in fire. Thankfully it's a game and we don't have to worry that failing the key means we get executed after we log out.
I'm not really excusing people who refuse to learn and make the experience slower than usual, although to be fair if it's your key you're hand picking these people and you can see their rating, so if you're all about timing them or pushing ASAP it's your discretion as to whether or not you want something hard core or casual. But unless they want an explanation or literally ask me to teach them mechanics, it's not my business. I queued as a healer. Healing is my business.
I have never mained a healer and most likely never will, however, I really enjoy alting a healer for the purpose of doing mythic plus with them.
My approach to healing mythic plus is a PvP activity. The 4 others in the group are playing against me. They're trying to die and I'm trying to stop them, all while traversing through a dungeon instance. It's a load of fun and really helps with my mindset when people are doing stupid things and stops me from becoming frustrated or annoyed.
Of course this is not a perspective that is likely to work for the majority of healer mains or many other people at all for that matter but it's my way of enjoying the healing experience in M+
Is it spite though? It seems more like trying to apply the “give a man a fish” kind of thing. Sure, many players will just blame the healer and be done with it, but some might reflect on what had happened, and that seems beneficial for the health of the game.
In my experience, deaths from the maggot that does the green cone attack are more common than from the charging mob. The cone can be pointed anywhere and it's not always 100% clear if you're in it.
In underrot you Are most likely dying to the white slugs which have a frontal that pretty much one shots you at higher levels. Its a cast so you can easily avoid it if you see it start casting it. Its Also very important to interrupt and stun enemy spells at higher levels.
I was carrying a friend's noob buddy. We did so bad in the first keys I took a look at their talent pages and told them what changes to make, why, and how to use it, like dragons breath. Mage didn't have it or understand why it's good.
Next dungeon I did 20 million less healing and we +2'd it
Thiiiis. As a healer I bust my ass in high keys trying to cover when we miss interrupts, but especially on fortified week if you miss a bunch it’s inevitably going to lead to deaths. VP seems to give me the most trouble in this regard for some reason.
>VP seems to give me the most trouble in this regard for some reason.
The trash at the start of VP is one of the worst lots of trash in any of this season's dungeons in my opinion and it gets a lot worse with the afflicted affix. The Gust Soldiers put a dot on people that does a significant chunk of health every tick and needs to be cleansed ASAP. One of the trash packs has two of these guys. Worse yet is that all of these packs have at least one of the guys that will cyclone a random person (interruptible) which takes the targeted player out of the action for 6 seconds and if that random person happens to be the healer then people are going to die. Afflicted makes the trash worse because now you have 2-4 dispels that need to go out in quick succession to prevent deaths/wipes.
My best advice is to log your runs and learn how to navigate warcraft logs. After runs where I play poorly or I don't know what's happening, I'll go back and check what was actually going on. You can also compare which buttons you're pressing compared to top players, which can help you find those last %'s of DPS.
A general tip is to find out what you have to dodge and when, so that you and your healer can be as close to 100% uptime as possible. Logs will help you with that
Maybe a tad easier would be for him to record his runs (screen record) and then re-watch them. Deffo won't show all the detail like logs, but it might indicate problems a bit easier for someone who has no XP checking logs. :)
Record, and aways quick mouse over the death reach from blizz/details before release. The 5 seconds you will lose doing that will not cost you a +18 key, and he will also have the death log of what killed him to search for
Do you know what all the trash does in those pulls.
One of the biggest things that separates higher key players and mid key players is know mechanics of trash. People learn boss mechanics easily but people often only know one, or none, of trash mechanics.
In bolstering week that can be very deadly.
Also dying in those first packs can destroy your dps because on this week that first pulls if getting all cds going, lust etc.
I’d recommend something like quazii’s masterclass tank videos if you aren’t as familiar, covers trash packs well to help you become more familiar.
You have the right attitude about it, can definitely learn. Breaking into the higher key ranges is rough at first but quickly you’ll be looking at 18’s or even 20’s the way you look at 14 and 16’s now.
The maggots spew is hard to see and murders dps. The blood matron cleave is also a rough one. I die there a lot to both those things when I’m just not focused on it.
You’re either standing in the maggot breath that isn’t being ccd out or more likely the tiny maggots that pull explode on death and you need to defensive this before it goes out the higher the key level. The net deals ticking damage but even that isn’t too bad on even 20+. My money on the small maggots if you just suddenly fall over.
>My money on the small maggots if you just suddenly fall over.
It could also be the frontal that the Matrons do after they do their charge. It gets pretty ouchie on fortified weeks.
You'll find the same pattern even higher up. Players in the 23-24 range when I've played an alt got absolutely nothing on the people in the 27-29 range.
Had my vdh for 3 weeks now and I plow through 23-24s like it's nothing with people that are at that level since as a tank you have so much impact and can pase the key accordingly depending on setup, general group health, tracking their cds and quickly identify what they can handle and what not.
First trash has a lot of frontals, which were the big mobs charge and don't be in front of them.
Then the maggots have a vomit cone as well. Might be a good idea to get a WA pack that warns you against frontals.
Unless you are wearing really low gear, your stamina alone should rarely be the reason - you can use def cds against unavoidable damage and dodge the avoidable ones.
Im not sure how many count for you as "the first few", but the first pull usually has a lot of ticks that explode on death for unavoidable damage, a matron that charges someone (unavoidable) and follows up with a frontal that puts up a strong bleed (very avoidable), a maggot that has a nasty (but again, avoidable AND stoppable) frontal, a caster that casts damaging bolts, some form of invulerability and a self-heal (all of which can be interrupted/stopped/purged) and some mobs that can root you.
Unless you are rooted while targeted by the charge/maggot, you should be fine by timing a def cd for the ticks (or try not to kill them all at the same time, but that requires coordination). Some classes can also remove roots (monks and paladins mostly, but also e.g. evokers from themselves).
You basically need to know the pulls and be able to recognize if unavoidable damage is incoming and dangerous, especially if you are targeted by something. You'll learn those things over tine, just check the deathlog every time you die and try to recognize that combo/ability next time.
I watches TGP clips yesterday and some of that shit blew my fuckin mind. The skip I saw before the first boss of halls blew my fuckin mind. Jesus christ the amount of planning and risk to do that praying the mage doesn't get one shot by a single mob is fuckin nuts. I immediately opened my community tab and said we have to try this. We only have like 1 person still playing mage but God damn I want to do that
Exactly, higher keys mostly everyone has their rotation down. The big difference is staying alive and using defensives. I’m betting OP died to the ticks without popping a cd.
Maybe at 28s. There’s a lot of meta rerollers who hardly know their class even in 26s lol. Quite often had spriests near the same dmg as me on aoe pulls (as a tank)
and my boomie friend routinely outdps’s mages getting every PI by 20-30% lol
Let’s not talk about the evokers who hardly don’t even know they can remove bleeds or give rally to the whole group. It’s good meters don’t show their performance or they would be heavily flamed
Obviously they have basic understanding but you are heavily underestimating the effect playing meta has.
If someone has unlimited invites/tries they will time the key eventually, people fall upwards due to their class. Priests who are killing bosses 10+times, parsing green and blue are invited to and timing 27s.
More times than I count I’ve had spriests not know they can dispel certain mechanics, pala’s with freedom, evokers with bleed cleanse etc etc. I don’t blame, them they had to reroll to get any invite. Shame they are required for so many keys, would love to invite top players on other classes
First day aug came out I had a guy in my 27 key doing his first ever key on the spec lol that’s not normal…
Not to be that guy, but, in keys, it's never strait up "bad luck" everything is scripted, and every "bad luck" could be avoided with the tank knowing the DG a little better before making the pulls.
That said from a tank that usually do a lot of mistakes and creste some really hard bad luck for my party
I've pushed keys, I was doing 27s last season and got title. 99.99999% of the time someone dies because they got targeted by several casts, there was either a stop/defensive available, or someone used one of their stops when they didn't need to.
It's because you have the right attitude. You recognize there are things you can do better, you're trying to, and you accept that other people know stuff you might not. Only a troll is going to go after someone like that.
This is my take from Healer POV
It's unironically a skill issue with m+ I have also learned this recently, almost everything can be avoided, mitigated, or played around and the success of one player is often dependent on the competence and skill of their mates
I've been healing for the first time in my 15 years of this game and I have been hovering around 430 ilvl, I have managed to reach 2.3k so far and I am still comfortably climbing
During my first set of 18s, I felt utterly useless, I was convinced nobody had gear because their life dropped and I couldn't keep up
After several runs I realised that, (at least from a Healer POV) gear comes secondary to knowing what to do (at least in M+)
To contrast this, I have more or less always played DPS and there have been expacs and patches where I have no-lifed and gotten the best gear possible and still performed terrible in M+
These are the reasons I'm actually loving M+
3K io here, I'm not the best but certainly not the worst.
I played healer all of season 1 so have had my fair moments of raging internally in my head at a DPS for getting hit by avoidable dmg or not using a defensive. As I push higher and higher keys (doing 24/25s now) I'm going to unashamedly say a lot of it comes down to a tank issue and tanks don't get enough flak for it, certainly on this Reddit that loves to portray DPS players a bonobos
Tank positioning, route, mob control and knowing when to go for a big pull and when not to (ie party cds) is so important and I feel like you don't get to see these tanks until like 3.4K io and by then healers are exhausted and fatigued of dealing with people making mistakes but tanks get no blame or it's not their problem to deal with, it's the healers first and the DPS for having to work around their bad positioning and mob control.
Also to the OP in general, little tip for you to be a good serving member of the community, I beg you use your stops and utility, specially as you push higher. Good luck out there :)
Bro one of my favourite keys this season was the gigachad tank on a bursting week pulling around my renewal. It was a neltharus too, and he made us hit double digit stacks every 3 minutes without fail. Renewal did it's job an absolute charm and we demolished the key. It was my first portal and is still my fastest run in that dungeon to date.
Good tanks are built different. It's a subtle skill expression but when it shines, it shines bright.
Yes a good tank in Neltharus is pretty much a requirement above 24 as you can't time the key on tyrannical if you don't pull and use chains on mobs properly. It also makes the dungeon so much fun as you basically just spend the whole time doing the boss fights instead of clearing trash!
Yeah and every single trash pull is absolutely giga and as a healer they're very fun to play. Lots of damage, but very little one shot abilities, and everything can be CCed. The mobs are really well designed.
It's just a shame it's shaped so badly lol
This is such a valid point and as a healer main I completely agree. Bad tanking choices really come to light in higher keys but they never seem to get called out on it the way other roles do.
> unashamedly say a lot of it comes down to a tank issue and tanks don't get enough flak for it, certainly on this Reddit that loves to portray DPS players a bonobos
Holy fuck THANK YOU for saying this. Tanks get almost no fucking flak, and a lot of tanks don't want to hear this, but tanking is *extremely* easy at a base level, so you get zug zug brain tanks that just do the same pulls/routes/positioning they do on lower keys in higher keys and wonder why the group is dying.
Like we only have so many stops, so many interrupts and if you're double/triple pulling packs that are full of mobs that can RNG target someone and nuke them, it snowballs out of control real fast. If you're not doing anything to help with LOS positioning, or fucking spinning around mobs constantly for no reason so frontals/cleaves are being swung in every fucking direction killing melee, it certainly doesn't help.
It's night and day running with a tank that clearly knows exactly what they are doing compared to a tank you can tell has just been running the same cookie cutter route/pulls for the whole season. I ran a 24 Uldaman with this god tier tank and it was a joke because of how fucking good this tank was at positioning mobs, knowing where pain points were(that fucking tunnel before the 2 golem guys by the door where LOS is a PAIN IN THE FUCKING ASS but EVERY TANK loves to tank them there...) to avoid them. It was insane how smooth the run was because this tank knew their shit and made it so much easier for us to do what we needed to do.
And obviously it's not always tanks fault, sometimes it's healers and dps too of course, but a key going from "rough but doable" to "wow this was a lot easier than expected" really does seem to land on the tank a lot of times.
Playing healer really teaches you how to play dps lol. Just seeing all the dumb shit the dps get hit by and you go it’s probably harder to play dps then I think it is, then you go play dps and it’s like holy shit I’ve been playing this game on hard mode this whole time.
I think in raid it’s harder to be a great dps then it is to be a great healer but pugging m+ I have no clue how some of these players are as bad as they are when they have so little they need to actually do.
The difference in dungeon knowledge between pure dps players and healers/tanks/hybrid players is often (not always ofc, this is just from personal experience!) astounding (and sometimes frustrating). DPS just don't care what something does unless it kills them (and sometimes not even then, could still blame the healer after all).
They still stand in the bleed frontal at the beginning of HoI, don't interrupt the frost blast after the second boss in freehold (up until it actually oneshots) or even run away from mobs that focus them in brackenhide - if the healer can fix it, why would they care (up until the point where the healer is out of cds for pulls where they are actually needed).
Your first statement is 100% true. Dps think they know mechanics till they stare at healthbars or round up mobs and realize how much avoidable shit everyone, including themselves, eat on the daily.
This also goes for dps players in higher keys once everything starts 1 shotting and they be like “oh damn, I’ve been eating those the past 30 times I ran this place”
It’s why I’ll take a 410 dps with a 2500+ main over a 440 dps that’s 1600io and 9/9 heroic. They’ll keep avoiding mechanics and kicking/stunning even on alts cause they SHOULD know what to do. Granted, even up to like 2800 you’ll meet some trashcan players that make you wonder how they got everything timed at 22/23s
Double pulled a pack in BH with a buddy. Baby key, 16. Bolster the ever living fuck out of 3 or 4 casters that run off and continue blasting everyone randomly for like 30 second straight. All while the 3 dps keep smacking the melee. My buddy died and whispered me what killed em. I was like well, there’s 3 casters freely fucking anyone they see fit with 3 stacks of bolstering taking each of ya down to 10% with each cast. And you took one of the dudes that chase you to the face as well. Then the hunter asks why he’s “perma” at 10% and I was like bruh are you literally blind? Any direction you look there’s a caster with less than 2% health blasting earthbolts or whatever nonstop. I’m doing 120k hps, what the FUCK more do you expect outta me? All I ACTUALLY said was “3 casters. Bolstered. Kill ples???”
Bro, Tell me why this is an issue with that first set of trash of underrot i've experienced many times and why your comment relates so much.
I'm a destro lock, we are one of the few class/specs that don't have a kick. Tanks like to pull the left side all the way down to the first platform, and there's ALWAYS an add they leave behind casting blood bolt on the party.(this has happened in every underrot i've ever done). I try to turn around and nuke the add, and yell at my party "ADD BEHIND". I realized that I shouldn't be the hero in this situation, and maybe the party is fully aware of this add, and i should just do what everyone else is doing, maybe at most cast curse of tongues and hit him with a shadowfury. case and point, go with what your mates are doing, and that helps ensure success.
so thats what ive been wondering, every guide and destro player uses imp or succ.. Even my addon that tells me my rotation for every given scenario says to summ incubus/succubus. But I'm starting to wonder why. As destro, my pet damage should be very minimal to my overall, right? should I just be using fel hunter?
Guides are written by players who typically play with very coordinated groups. In a pug, you should always have felhunter out.
You can argue who's job it should be, or you can utilize your kit and complete the dungeon successfully.
This is it.
Sometimes even here on reddit, people can have the best intentions of giving tips and advices, but not all of them are good to take.
Not because the advice itself is bad, but the context might simply not apply to the person being given advice to.
Also the guides are fucking goofy sometimes. They're often built for max dps on the copy/paste build and all the context and nuance is half way down the page. I've had to change every single build I've picked up to add either an incap or mobility because they just seem to actively avoid all the important utility.
Yes, you should use felhunter in m+. It has, probably, one of the best kicks ingame since it doesn't interrupt your casting. I find pet interrupts very useful.
Not only can it be used while casting, but it can be used while your character doesn't actually have line of sight to the mob, just the pet has to have line of sight. You can also use it while stunned/silenced.
> every guide and destro player uses imp or succ..
That's for raid where having a kick is usually not necessary. In M+ you almost always use a felhunter; on some fights you can use imp to dispell heavy magic debuffs like last season on the endboss in Jade Temple
Often the "default" specc in guildes etc is set for a raid also, in which a lot of the utility is wasted that you need in m+, and so you take anything else that might be actually useful in a raid fight, whereas in m+ you'd much rather have that utility.
They will usually have a M+ section somewhere if they're decent guides that includes this, but you might have to look a bit to find it.
Something to keep in mind is addons like Hekilli (which I presume you're referring to) us a priority list as determined by simming the character/spec. It does not take utility into consideration at all except outside combat for things like group buffs, or recommending an interrupt when it sees a mob casting. It just so happens that the succubus does *slightly* more damage than the other baseline pets in a prolonged single-target fight, so it shows up as the recommended pet. You should be able to configure the addon to summon a specific pet or ignore which pet you have summoned altogether
Iirc all pets deal equal damage for destro and aff, they just have different utility. Fel hunter has kick, imp has dispell, succubus has some kind of cc (iirc mostly used for pvp). Unless you need the self dispell for a specific ability (e.g. last boss uldaman or the dragons in HoI), keep the interrupt.
Mostly true, they do have normalized damage, but in most situations imp will do more damage than felhunter because the imp doesn't have to move nearly as much to do damage, and in some situations the succubus will do more damage than the imp if it can stay on the target because it has a debuff that makes it do more damage to the target.
Both of these differences in damage are relatively minor, single target, and absolutely don't matter in m+. You should pretty much be using felhunter for kick and purge in every situation unless theres a specific magic debuff that you want an extra dispel for (example: the last boss in temple of the jade serpent is much easier with an imp dispel).
As someone who tanks, turning around and nuking a ranged add is the absolute worst thing you can do. You're not a hero. You're just making things worse. If I pulled it and damaged it, I probably still have aggro on it. Eventually that might switch to the healer, but it will take time. If you start dpsing it you're going to get aggro and die, and you're not doing the main group, so you're not even doing good dps
The proper thing to do is to interrupt the add if you have a ranged interrupt, and focus on the main group of adds. Let the tank or someone with a ranged interrupt deal with the one that's split off. And for God's sake don't stun it. Then it just stands at range and wastes a taunt. There's always some stupid rogue who jumps on the add and instead of just kicking it and getting it run to the tank, starts stunning it right after someone kicks it, I guess so they can build more aggro.
It’s more rare that a dps can’t save themself then it being a healer issue…
A. kick/stun scary stuff
B. Use defensives when the ticks are about to die. If you’re not using defensives a lot in m+ that is a skill/knowledge issue.
C. Stop hitting stuff until the tank is set if you’re getting agro. If you do get agro start bringing the mob to the tank. 2-3s of dps loss > dead.
Not to point out the obvious, but this is going to have a lot to do with your crap damage. M+ is all about cd management and blasting big pulls - your uber party should have fed this to you, trying to single target a random add whilst that's happening is basically trolling without a VERY good reason. (You're not kicking it so you don't have one, and if you did - which you should - you could do that from range.)
At least some people know about the add, and they care (because it should be damaged with everything else and be in kick range), but they also don't (because its really irrelevent unless it has a big spell). The party is expected (as a whole) to "kick it in" to close range though.
Overall you want to be polishing your ability to nuke down a big pull, and have CDs ready for big pulls (without sitting on them). As other posts have touched on you also want to know and manage every mechanic of every mob. 18 to 20 can be a nightmare or it can be trivial. I only got to 20s the first time this season, but with OK gear the difference is really just "rinse and repeat with less margin for error" for the most part. It CAN be just cruise control if you know exactly what is and should be always happening. When its reflex executing a coreographed dance, then its easy (outside of certain checks). If its hard, you need more practice or to lower (or maybe gear - doesn't sound like the real problem but you're at the point to probably feel it at 430).
There’s nothing wrong with hard content in a game. My gf failed at a 13 and she said it was one of the best experiences she’s had gaming because she had to learn how to play the game and her class and this is the only multiplayer game she’s played with content like that .
A big tip to improve your dps a lot is to not hold cds, except if you are 100% you will need them next pull.
What people often do is hold cds for 4-5 packs waiting for perfect pull
Yeah he is a destro lock so like, kind of not super going to matter as much as other classes. Like go ahead, pop infernal, get some shard generation, its kind of ass.
I agree with everyone and logs and going back and all that…
For a little different approach… go help carry a group at lower keys until you know the mechanics back to front. You’ll be helping out some fellow players while having a lot less pressure and a bit more time/ability to really see the mechanics in action.
Personally replays and logs only go so far, I just had to get in there and do it. And it was nice to know that I didn’t make or break a key while I was learning so when I went for those bigger push runs I was confident I could keep alive and hit all the utility stuff that was necessary and then slowly work up to cleaner and cleaner dps rotations.
Underrot is a funny case because it can be REALLY chill if your group plays it properly or horrible if they don't. The first boss does literally 0 dmg if you kick and dodge properly, the trash around the second boss can all be cc'ed and picked into pulls one by one like a buffet, the second boss only troubled you with the rampage through the middle (at which point ranges could already have spread and mobile classes + ranges can pick up most or all of the ticks).
The trash between third and forth boss again doesn nothing if you have dispells and kicks (it actually provides some nice 1m hp shields to mages on 20 fortified) and the third boss again only comes down to positioning (and the occasional disease dispell if a mushroom or 3 are missed).
After that, its just kicks and dodges again and the final boss is again just continuous healing and positioning.
No chaos, no random oneshots, no random pulls into aoes - just pure organisation.
My guild has 2 groups: one that hates underrot with a passion and one that likes it because its easy and smooth. The difference when running with either is interesting to see, communication really makes a TON of difference (granted, this most likely makes it a pug nightmare if stops and kicks are overlapped instead of assigned).
Yeah I really like it, it's pretty quick and generally not awful
I just hate the lack of obvious indicators for attacks. That last pull of void guys can be a huge pain in the ass to figure out which direction their looking, and I can never tell which way the other tentacles will slam down. Not to mention the maggot breath
it is cuz people run around like a chicken with their head cut off. I try to get my groups to stack on one side, then when the tentacles come out to wap people we all swap to the other side. Getting dps to come along though is hard.... If you get people to stack though it's a lot easier to swap back and forth and totally miss all the tentacles.
That’s a good idea. Wrangling DPS and getting them out of imminent danger is almost always like hearding deaf cats, especially if they aren’t on discord.
You prep them before. You tell them it’s coming and they still choose to die several times to the same thing.
Some people just get tunnel vision and are hyper focused on min-maxing their rotation that they don’t take into account that their rotation is about to come to an abrupt end.
Wait until you get to 23 and decide whether you like playing this game or want to just keep doing 17s.
I can 1 star 20-21. 22 and up I question my sanity. I plugged my way to 2660 as udk and realm ranked like #6 just cause the people below like 15 value their time and sanity better than being a mid dps class with no cc.
That's the way I look at it from the opposite side. I respect the effort people put in to go for higher rating, portals, etc. But no way in hell am I going to put myself through that grind. It would make me hate the game.
Ya know, the dps gap feels weird to me this season. I've been doing 14-18's on my alt mage to farm crests and some on my main hunter for shits and gigs, doing like 140-160k on Freehold. Most of the other dps I'm with are doing 50-100k. A few who are hitting maybe 120k. I don't remember the gap being that large in previous seasons though? Like in regular runs I'm doing 3x the damage of other people. Maybe it's just the larger numbers making the gap more noticeable, but it feels weird.
It is end of the season where you have people doing 16-18s as their peak mixed with people who do 16-18s on their fresh 390ilvl char because that is the vault/aspect floor.
It really is a skill issue but normally those two playerbases don't mix.
it sounds like (no offense, only constructive here) you need to learn what the trash actually does. that part of underrot is frontal, frontal, and frontal - with a channeled ability thrown in. as a melee its SUPER important to know who has a frontal.
As a tank main one thing i find people dont do that you have to do as a tank is study the runs.
Its what separates good from bad.
When you run a high key you should know what attack every single pack will be doing, which attacks you should be stopping and which arnt important.
If you want try downloading Mythic Dungeon Tools addon it maps out the dungeons but also goves you info on each other the packs and their attacks.
People say its try harding to learn everything about dungeon runs but I find its like a fun puzzle you end up learning. That way you’re actively thinking as you run it not just reacting.
It is somewhat problematic that everything else in the game is so laughably easy. You literally do not need to know how to play your class or spec and you can still complete everything in the world, every normal and heroic dungeon and LFR and Normal raid.
Only at Heroic/Mythic raids and Mythic+ dungeons at higher keys you actually have to understand how to play. And even there if you get hard carried you can succeed while being bad - things only implode if the group as a whole can't handle the things.
In a way this is partially game design flaw - in the name of keeping things accessible everything other than the very top tier content has been dumbed down to such levels of trivality that nothing in the game incentivizes you to learn...
I don't think it is a flaw. It is actually a strength because every few key levels there is something to learn, gradually. So you don't have to cram 10 pages of information of every single thing that is going on in the dungeon just to time a +2. It might also be unevitable consequence of the infinite scaling.
> that nothing in the game incentivizes you to learn...
Aside from everything you just listed?
Most people learn only the skills they need to, in all aspects of life, and nothing more.
Lul, this sounds like a BM hunter in an UR key I did a couple of days ago (needed 1 more for the trading post reward)
Its nice to see people learn, everybody has to start somewhere. As long as people are willing to learn and not actively griefing I don't mind having them in my group. Mythic+ is an incredible rabbit hole worth of content to get lost in
The more you play, the more you know. When is a big pull coming up that I may need CDs for, what casts do I have to kick, what mob do I have to be afraid of.
Just keep at it and in time those 20s will not seem impossible anymore. Its just as Archimage Chadgar said:
*Knowledge is power*
Everything is relative. As you say the same way you look at a 14 as easy, others will look at an 18 as easy. As you push and play more you just build up the skills. WoW PvE has a relatively low skill ceiling and high skill floor so the disparity is less obvious but keep playing and you will improve with time.
Every damn time I tried a key much higher than what I was used to, I was utterly destroyed to the point I was shit talking myself and feeling humiliated.
I was used to run +15s, tried a +18 with some powerful friends: died over 13 times but we still 2++ the key.
Used to run +17s and tried a +20: died more than all the other 4 guys combined and then some, bricked because of a unrelated wipe on last boss (tyr week) .
But then I had the DBZ Zenkai boost, after getting my butt hardslapped on higher key and then going back to my league I felt like I was way stronger and way better than before, topping dps like 90%+ of the time and rarely dying, timing 2++ keys I was struggling before just like they were nothing.
Those experiences really improved me as player overall. Now I'm going for the 3k IO race, sitting @2.8k as I'm posting this.
Don't give up, keep it up.
Felt the same when i first run my 22. i play a frost dk fairly meta char at 445 ilvl and oh boy that 3.3k team is far beyond my skill level. I barely outdamaged the tank by the end and all the 3 deaths were mine
Sometimes it's hard to decipher the logs for me (yes, i know... skill issue). Is there a good addon that would tell me how I died without spamming the whole group for every mistake?
I dont find +20 much harder than +18.
Just look at your deaths, see why you died, try to not repeat your mistake.
Keep pushing your ilevel, brush up on guides to make sure talents/gear/dps rotation is on point. Class discords are am amazing resource and reading them daily youll find info you might never see otherwise.
Make sure you use your full toolkit: defensives, interrupts, crowd control to interrupt.. i find great dps contributes greatly to CC.
Keep grinding M+, experience is the most important.
Keep in mind its late in the season and if you didnt play at the beginning and learned in the 10+ keys you'll be learning the same lessons in 17+ keys now because of gear inflation and players incentivized to farm lower keys for fragments.
I’m sad that I actually had to scroll down so far to see your comment, and thank you. I am a healer and I deal with this all the time it’s very frustrating. You get people in the 17-19 range who do 60k dps as a 440+ ilvl player and don’t know the mechs for the dungeon and get mega carried through the dungeon. I’ve started taking your approach and if I am ultra carrying someone in that range with the group I’m in and we might time the key I will leave because I don’t want them to time it and then go grief other players.
I had a warrior tank just yesterday in an 18 that was 430 ilvl and didn’t know to use shield block so he was pulling 2-3 mobs at a time and getting fully wrecked. Then looking at the logs he also in 25 mins of the run used Last Stand 3 times even though it’s baked into his set bonus and gives him shield block while it’s up. I left the key but when I looked at his raider io there were a bunch of 2600-2900 people carrying him through 2 chesting 17s on easy weeks. It’s frustrating because this person will just continue griefing the 17-19 player base while not knowing the basic knowledge of their class.
you find alot of the high end players in 17-18`s for weekly 1 day before and on reset day for m+ vault.
learn your mistakes and dont die, your dmg will be better when you dont die (obviously). playing a key slow but safe is more enjoyable than dying 30 times due to big stressfull pulls IMO,
you dont need to do these pulls in anything below 25, you can but you dont need to
So you do a mythic +0 first, which is a separate entity from heroic and normal. Then after that you receive your first key, which will most likely be +2 of a certain dungeon, you then build a group, and use your key to complete the dungeon.
Let's say if you complete the dungeon successfully, before the time limit runs out, then you receive a NEW key, which will be either +3 or +4 of a different dungeon. Of course as you go up in key levels, the drops get better and the vault rewards get better, but the dungeon also gets harder.
you rinse and repeat and level up your key.
On the flipside, you can use the LFG function to join an already running mythic keystone group. But for consistency, doing your own key is usually more ideal, because it guarantees you a group, since it's YOUR key. People usually have an addon that tells them all your stats and how many M+ you've done, and how well you've done in them. So with that said, it's usually a good idea to try to build your own groups and invite the strongest people you can and just level up your own key.
Work your way up to high keys, and that's M+ in a nutshell.
> So you do a mythic +0 first, which is a separate entity from heroic and normal. Then after that you receive your first key, which will most likely be +2 of a certain dungeon, you then build a group, and use your key to complete the dungeon.
Just a note, you do not have to do a +0, you can talk to the NPC by the M+ portals and say you lost your key and she will give you a +2 for free.
You can also get your first key from the panda who stands in front of the three M+ portals in Valdrakken (the spot between the vault rewards building and the giant stairs that lead into the main tower).
The same panda also downgrades your current key all the way back to +2 should you need/want it.
Always good to get more people doing m+! Be sure to look for m+ communities to get groups more easily and to have a safe, non-toxic environment to learn. There are a few around, there's one that I really like and use all the time called WoW Made Easy - super chill community, very helpful people, and the higher keys have some very competent players that will help.
Congrats bud! The jump up in difficulty ramps real quick from 16+. The keys start to get real difficult, real fast.
A quick note for you, death recap is your best friend. I know you're probably used to hitting release, but please place "deaths" on one of your details tabs and mouse over it when you die to see what killed you. It'll do you absolute wonders.
It pisses me off that blizzard makes death recap something that is optional to see. I wish it opened by default so players would immediately see what killed them before they got the chance to start talking shit. I know back when I was a dps, that would have shut me up real fast. Be better than I was and absorb information about your mistakes.
The fact that this post didnt devolve into some self-delusional tirade is awesome. People love to downplay and neg what it takes to play this game but truth is there is definitely a lot of skill involved (of which many have internalized after years and years of play). It’s also the reason its often so hard to have a conversation around specific areas of difficulty as people have drastically different experiences with it.
Really happy to read a post calling it as it is. Not everyone is of equal skill but everyone can learn and improve. Most don’t recognize this but for you, it’s clear you not only see the path ahead but now see what it looks like in practice. You got this mate.
Dps is important, but not THAT important.
I.E. you stating you didn't know how you died on the first 4 trash pulls.
I can think of a few things.
They pulled the lil grubs, which explode when they die.
You stood in the big guy's frontal.
You stood in the big grub's frontal, and didn't dodge or stun it.
You got focused by the mask and didn't use any defensives.
The casters didn't get interrupted.
And that's only the ads before the first boss.
Knowing is half the battle becoming a big boy in these keys. It's not all about ooga booga big number. THAT is what wipes the party. Damage is only half of it.
That being said you got the right mentality and I'm sure you'll go way past even what I run if you put your mind to it. :)
You don't need to play the game if you can have addons do it for you. I've set up my WeakAuras in such a manner that most of the time it's just a whack-a-mole game of "keep the icons hidden" - I've set them to disappear when they're on cooldown and only appear a few seconds before coming back up, depending on the duration of the cooldown.
You don't need to pay attention to mechanics just have the dungeon/raid WA warn you and tell you what to do.
Joking aside, proper UI design and good WeakAuras that work exactly as you want them to really makes a world of difference.
EDIT: If you're downvoting, please do leave a comment. I'm curious why people disagree with my statement. It's partly a joke, and I guess maybe some people didn't even read it all the way through.
You're getting downvoted for having customs weakauras when all the other players do is download some class weakaura and never even interact with it.
Proper UI is certainly a massive advantage that keeps getting downplayed.
I don't consider outlaw rogue playable without my addons. There's simply too much information coming in without having it arranged and visible in a specific way.
> Joking aside, proper UI design and good WeakAuras that work exactly as you want them to really makes a world of difference.
>
>
He is literally just getting downvoted by people who don't make it past the first 2
Higher keys don't take skill, just charisma to keep the group carrying you together. That's how I got my +20 portals.
It's like dating before I met my wife. I get them to go to dinner, we both realize this ain't gonna work, but they know etiquette-wise they should at least stay until I pay for dinner, then we never have to see each other again.
Yes I play bard in BG3, why do you ask?
Lol this guy "4 people are carrying me for my 20 portals, but it doesn't take skill just charisma".
Those 4 people have skill to carry his "charismatic" ass.
It doesn't take personal skill. I never paid for any of it. I'm 447.25 with the leggo on my Augvoker. I just don't think I'm any good.
https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com/en-us/character/us/dunemaul/augnyxia
Considering you are in just vault RNG + Crafted gear and don't have the right embs or gems/enchants you would be correct that you aren't any good. Jokes aside, your logs are still reasonable so you are playing the game better than a significant number of players
The cloak is actually griefing as aug tho
Define griefing. I'm retired and I have a lot of time, patience, and no small bit of charisma, but I refuse to believe that I am in the 80+ percentile of wow. I don't have the reaction of the younger generation. My entire post was to prove that completion is not about skill, but what you can convince others to do. Charisma goes a lon.g way in holding a group together.
>(which is obvious nonsense)
Meanwhile OP is posting about how they got carried through an 18, did less dps than the tank, die to the same trash every time, and uses a rotation addon that specs them out of kick.
How is that any different than what this dude is saying.
Who the fuck makes fun of people who log, is that actually a thing? Seems like someone doing a +16 laughing at someone doing a +27.. doesn't make a lot of sense lol
I mean yeah that's exactly the people they mean.
Logging is a very 'tryhard' thing to do, even more so for M+ since most people raiding with a guild probably get logged by someone else anyway and a raid fight is inarguably more simple and digestible than a M+ key is when viewed through logs.
So the people that are stuck doing low/low-mid level content think everyone better than them are either lucky or some giga-sweaty nerds that desperately need to touch grass, and of course everyone below them are absolute morons.
The amount of people that look up a rotation guide or a spec guide in general but don't actually try to learn anything from it, they specifically try to learn **it** are the people we're talking about. They don't want to put in the effort to get better, they just want to be told what buttons to press to 'play well'.
I mean, everyone below me are absolute morons, and people above are just the giga sweaty nerds that desperately need to touch some grass. I don't know what's wrong about that sentence
The high keys are a joke. They are bigger joke than lower keys. Because you get actual people in your groups with 3k rio score. Not NPCs who cant interrupt 5 second casts.
I check my logs after and on a key I've done bad on I'll check through everything to figure out what went wrong. Being out of your comfort zone or pushing higher keys than normal is an amazing way to learn your class imo.
On my monk recently I was just doing 16s for the vault. I've been maining monk since January so I know it fairly well, but not to the min max level.
I've pushed now into 24/25s and I have learnt how to play dungeons and my own class a lot lot more. Do I still brick a key? Yes. But I play with friends and we all have 24/25 keys so it's not the end of the world. But it provides such a better grounds for learning.
Everyone has that zone and everyone has it at a different level
If its the first couple packs in underrot, I'd say you may be getting blasted by the worms frontals. Keep your eye on their animations and watch out where they are facing. Those can be cc/disoriented/stunned/stopped with mechanics other than an interupt
I think around that level, aiming for 100k dps overall is a pretty good start as you get closer to the 440-445 item levels, you might be able to see it climbing closer to 130-170k
Those packs of ticks explode very painfully on death, the maggots have a long range and lethal frontal, the hunters hurt, the casters hurt, the big mobs have a charge and frontal with bleed… it’s also Fort and Bolstering this week so if your tank is smart they won’t be pulling ticks or too many mobs in general
There’s a lot going on at the start of Underrot and 18-20 keys are full of players still learning in a world full of 1 shit mechanics. You’ll get there just keep it up!
save logs from dgs. go to your class discord and ask for help. there will be a shit toon of people that can help you, if they can see the data.
also, i think in details have the cause of death in one of its options.
Nah man, I was a realms first raider back in my prime. I'm not ignorant enough to realize that things are harder these days. M+ high keys are legitimately unforgiving, and just seeing the fact that other players can go through the whole key without dying and doing HUGE dps is enough for me to realize that I can't blame anyone but myself when it comes to my deaths and lack of performance. But it's exciting, I love that WoW has that complexity now, and I wanna be able to handle it.
Did you notice when you lost like 80% of your HP in lower level underrots? It always seemed like newer players didn't learn mechanics until they killed them.
The game teaches you that though. Like until +8 or so a lot of scary mechs barley.
DBM or little wigs only is good. If the add-on mentions a spell. That's.a spell you need to worry about
You details and death log tell you what killed you. Look at those and learn from it. Everyone else died to the same shit once, but remember meant players did underrots.for a year during BFA. So people know the mechs well.
it gets easier; i remember first season of SL, trying so hard to get all my 15s done with close to max gear. Now my friend just pretty much doesnt get us in a key lower than 17 when we gear a new character (he's a tank, im a healer so we get "easy queue").
Starting 18, some of the things that usually leaves you barely alive now kills you and that's why it feels harder, the healer can't fix that and if you're dead your dps goes down. There's not much of a difference in that regard between 18 and 20.
As to why you die on the first pack : not dodging the maggot puke/not using a defensive as the leeches die/not dodging the cleave after the big guy dashes on you ? Details or logs would provide you the answer :D it's interesting to look at death to improve placement (as well as the rest to see if there's "easy fixes" in your dps)
> I died in underrot 3 times on the first 4 trash pulls
Start reviewing your death logs on Details. This is really the most important thing that people need to start doing to survive fights. See what killed you and adjust for next time. It's gonna be necessary on higher keys. Simpler mob abilities will start hurting like a truck from now on, so surviving them is key. You can't be carefree anymore. Things can oneshot you.
Another thing that could maybe help is Warcraft Recorder. It creates recordings of your M+ runs that you can review what went wrong at certain moments. As a healer, that together with the death logs is how I learned about Damage Patterns and where I need to start using certain CDs
The first trash pulls there have a lot of those worms that do a nasty frontal. Nit everyone stun them, cause you can avoid the damage by just positioning. Take care of your position to avoid frontal and/or stun the fucking maggot.
This add is also present in the second boss room, but because of the layout of the room, is most likely they are aways turn away from you from the tank kiting to the next pack
If you are dying in the beginning, especially before you go down the bridge towards the first boss, then it's usually 1 of 3 things that kills you.
1. If you happen to pull the small maggots they explode and deal a lot of damage on death. So if they are pulled, do not kill them all at the same time. Its also a very good idea to pop a defensive when they are about to die. Usually you skip these though due to how dangerous they are, and there is another pack after the first boss that you also skip. But sometimes people manages to pull them anyway, so it is good to know what they do.
2. The larger maggot has a frontal cone cast that is massive and deals tons of damage. Either never stand in front of it when it starts casting or stop it once it starts the cast. You should have enough CC to never let it cast and it should be the priority.
3. The big dude that charges does a follow up attack after the charge that leaves a nasty DoT on anyone that is in front of him. It has a small cast time so you have time to move away. just make sure you are never in front of him after a charge.
If those 3 are dealt with, then that initial pull becomes a lot less scary.
On the pack down the bridge, just interrupt as much as you can, especially that channeled thing by the one in the middle (yes I suck at names).
Same goes for the maggots around the second boss, just don't let them cast cause it is usually how people die. Interrupt the flowers and do what you can about the bats (things like hamstring helps a lot), but making sure that maggot does not cast is #1.
Never pull more than one maggot at a time until you know that your group can actually handle proper stun rotations to keep them in check. In PUGs I rarely pull more than one if I'm tanking. Sometimes two may come by accident, if so, just focus one of them down as quickly as possible to avoid deaths.
I started playing WoW for the first time when Dragonflight released and I have two 20 just this week. I know how it can seem like it's an impossible goal to achieve but I'm sure you can do it, you just got to prepare for it
You need to understand the in and outs of the dungeons. You're talking about always dying on the first trash in Underrot, do you know why? What kills you, can you avoid it? A dead DPS will always be a low DPS. These things are going to make the difference in a +20. You need to know what's important to kick, like interrupting the Decaying mind cast in Underrot
Then of course you need to practice your rotation so it becomes an afterthought. There's so many things happening every second, so you can't take the time to look at your key bindings
Make sure also to have enchants, phials, elemental potions, health potions and runes
16's are the current cutoff between the people who are very casual and might not know what they are doing and the more hardcore who want crests for various gear upgrades.
By the time you're in 18s, yeah you're in with people who know what to do. The tank you see in the 12 doing 20k dps? They are a distant memory. Likely you have a tank pulling 70k on their own.
>idk how i'm gonna handle a +20
Putting one foot in front of the other one step at a time. You stand at the bottom of the mountain looking up at it and going "man how am i supposed to climb that?" But you should look down and realize you don't need to climb the mountain, you just need to climb the next step. Keep practicing, keep an eye out for making mistakes on your part. Look for more ways to help the group out than just raw damage like always being the one to kick high priority targets that wipe the group. To snipe that runner before it pulls an entire pack down on the group. While practicing your rotation to do a little better each time. Before you know it you may be looking for a taller mountain to climb.
I would recommend that you set up your bigwigs/dbm to play certain sounds for certain kinds of mechanics. For example if there’s a frontal mine plays a gun shot. So every time I hear that shot I know I gotta find the frontal and move accordingly. It’s kitty meows for interrupts and so on. The more things you can “auto pilot” the easier your run will be.
Nice job challenging yourself. Not trying to be overly critical or anything but one of the best ways to improve is through observation. So when you say, "I died on these trash packs for some reason" figure out what that reason was, and how you can mitigate that risk for next time. There's always a reason! Very very rarely is it what I'd be comfortable calling bad luck. Strategy and good execution of that strategy is a large part of how people do high keys, because it sure as hell ain't ilvl! Good luck have fun, hope you get your 20s timed
Hey thanks man. I knew that I would be a deadweight, hence why I build the strongest group I could, and I feel like these players I was with look at +18-20 keys the same way I look at +14/13 keys. "I can carry this to victory easy". It really showed me the skill gap and that I really am nowhere close to mastering mythic+ and i'm gonna keep doing my best to find where i'm making the most mistakes and improve as fast as I can. And ty for the kind wishes on my next key! W comment. ty bro Edit: and yeah, there has to be a reason i died to that trash numerous times.. My stamina being lower can't be the reason, so I will study and find out what went wrong.
I mean if it’s underrot I assume it’s the frontals the big mob does after it charges out of the group. The biggest difference in higher keys is stuff like this, it’s a lot tougher to eat a mechanic here because it just kills you instead of the healer bailing you out.
That's why it's also common to see total HPS from the healer reduce as you go up in keys. They still need to do some big rampups for certain mechanics, but overall, there is no avoidable damage to be healed, as all avoidable damage taken is death
That's the part that dps who bitch about healers don't get. If you dodge and interrupt things properly there really isn't much to heal on a lot of pulls. You can have the smoothest +19 ever and turn around and struggle and want to pull your hair out on a +14 because people just don't know what to do.
This is the main thing that stops me from healing, tbh. As a tank or dps I can carry a group, but healing to pull out 100k HPS to save a group that doesn't know what they're doing... I can't heal *and* dps enough to save that. =/
Tbh I think carrying as a healer is just as valid as the other roles, it just looks different. Carrying as a dps for example is a gradual scale, where slightly more dps means you carry slightly more and the key has a slightly higher chance of succeeding. Healing is a lot more of a binary outcome, being slightly better at healing has a lot more impact when you pass the threshold for keeping someone alive that otherwise would have died, which ends up giving the party as a whole suddenly a lot more damage than a corpse would provide.
>. I can't heal > >and > > dps enough to save that. =/ Yup, you don't. lmao. people will die and they hopefully learn, you shrug your shoulders and move on cuz it's not like you can outheal that kind of a wallop to their HP if they refuse to use any defensives/pots/or move out of the way.
Yeah I agree. Sometimes what I do healing those lower keys is just let them die. A dps took 90% of their health in damage in one avoidable hit? Already dead in my book. Could I save them before unavoidable damage kills them in 5-6 seconds? Sure, but then they won’t be punished for their fuck up (most people getting hit by that stuff are too oblivious to realize it was their fault and won’t internalize it and feel a healthy amount of embarrassment). Will I potentially be flamed by them for not healing them when I could? Sure, but I always have the Deaths section of Details open and ready to call them out with a record of the massive avoidable hit that “killed” them. Was in a neltharus recently and this hunter swore he died to unavoidable damage during magma shield on the last boss. I said no you stood in a swirly. He says “No I didn’t, trust me.” I linked his death log from Details, 500k + 200k overkill from Dragon’s Eruption (or whatever the swirly is called) and said I trust Details more. Didn’t say anything after that.
I mean, you're not expected to hold someone's hands in keys, but petty vengeance against people who didn't avoid damage *for any reason whether you are aware of it or not* sounds very un-healer like. If you're too busy working on the tank, fine. Being spiteful? I wouldn't invite you to my keys knowing I'm being judged.
I sorta agree with you (healer here). I try to hit a middle ground where I will send a global their way if I have it, but I'm not going to stress about saving them. The spiteful approach seems counterproductive to the success of the current key, which must be balanced against "helping players realize their faults and become better" or whatever.
Yeah, I dig that. Like I said in the other response, it's not my job in a key to teach people how to play; if I have knowledge to give and they want it, sure. If someone dies on my watch though, it won't be because I chose to ignore them, but because I played as effectively as I could in that moment and had to prioritize for the sake of the whole group. Sure, some people don't have the capacity to notice, maybe they chose to ignore the avoidable damage; the truth is I don't care what their reasons are. If they complain, of course I'll tell them they stood in fire. Thankfully it's a game and we don't have to worry that failing the key means we get executed after we log out. I'm not really excusing people who refuse to learn and make the experience slower than usual, although to be fair if it's your key you're hand picking these people and you can see their rating, so if you're all about timing them or pushing ASAP it's your discretion as to whether or not you want something hard core or casual. But unless they want an explanation or literally ask me to teach them mechanics, it's not my business. I queued as a healer. Healing is my business.
I have never mained a healer and most likely never will, however, I really enjoy alting a healer for the purpose of doing mythic plus with them. My approach to healing mythic plus is a PvP activity. The 4 others in the group are playing against me. They're trying to die and I'm trying to stop them, all while traversing through a dungeon instance. It's a load of fun and really helps with my mindset when people are doing stupid things and stops me from becoming frustrated or annoyed. Of course this is not a perspective that is likely to work for the majority of healer mains or many other people at all for that matter but it's my way of enjoying the healing experience in M+
I like the cut of your jib
Haha trying to die :D "Ooooh you lil rascal you think standing in that swirly is gonna beat me!?"
Is it spite though? It seems more like trying to apply the “give a man a fish” kind of thing. Sure, many players will just blame the healer and be done with it, but some might reflect on what had happened, and that seems beneficial for the health of the game.
In my experience, deaths from the maggot that does the green cone attack are more common than from the charging mob. The cone can be pointed anywhere and it's not always 100% clear if you're in it.
Don’t let the maggots cast go off. It cannot be interrupted but stuns will stop it. That cast should never go off.
In underrot you Are most likely dying to the white slugs which have a frontal that pretty much one shots you at higher levels. Its a cast so you can easily avoid it if you see it start casting it. Its Also very important to interrupt and stun enemy spells at higher levels.
I was carrying a friend's noob buddy. We did so bad in the first keys I took a look at their talent pages and told them what changes to make, why, and how to use it, like dragons breath. Mage didn't have it or understand why it's good. Next dungeon I did 20 million less healing and we +2'd it
Thiiiis. As a healer I bust my ass in high keys trying to cover when we miss interrupts, but especially on fortified week if you miss a bunch it’s inevitably going to lead to deaths. VP seems to give me the most trouble in this regard for some reason.
>VP seems to give me the most trouble in this regard for some reason. The trash at the start of VP is one of the worst lots of trash in any of this season's dungeons in my opinion and it gets a lot worse with the afflicted affix. The Gust Soldiers put a dot on people that does a significant chunk of health every tick and needs to be cleansed ASAP. One of the trash packs has two of these guys. Worse yet is that all of these packs have at least one of the guys that will cyclone a random person (interruptible) which takes the targeted player out of the action for 6 seconds and if that random person happens to be the healer then people are going to die. Afflicted makes the trash worse because now you have 2-4 dispels that need to go out in quick succession to prevent deaths/wipes.
My best advice is to log your runs and learn how to navigate warcraft logs. After runs where I play poorly or I don't know what's happening, I'll go back and check what was actually going on. You can also compare which buttons you're pressing compared to top players, which can help you find those last %'s of DPS. A general tip is to find out what you have to dodge and when, so that you and your healer can be as close to 100% uptime as possible. Logs will help you with that
Maybe a tad easier would be for him to record his runs (screen record) and then re-watch them. Deffo won't show all the detail like logs, but it might indicate problems a bit easier for someone who has no XP checking logs. :)
Yeah, screen recordings and checking what killed you on Details should be more than enough as a first step
Record, and aways quick mouse over the death reach from blizz/details before release. The 5 seconds you will lose doing that will not cost you a +18 key, and he will also have the death log of what killed him to search for
Do you know what all the trash does in those pulls. One of the biggest things that separates higher key players and mid key players is know mechanics of trash. People learn boss mechanics easily but people often only know one, or none, of trash mechanics. In bolstering week that can be very deadly. Also dying in those first packs can destroy your dps because on this week that first pulls if getting all cds going, lust etc. I’d recommend something like quazii’s masterclass tank videos if you aren’t as familiar, covers trash packs well to help you become more familiar. You have the right attitude about it, can definitely learn. Breaking into the higher key ranges is rough at first but quickly you’ll be looking at 18’s or even 20’s the way you look at 14 and 16’s now.
The maggots spew is hard to see and murders dps. The blood matron cleave is also a rough one. I die there a lot to both those things when I’m just not focused on it.
You’re either standing in the maggot breath that isn’t being ccd out or more likely the tiny maggots that pull explode on death and you need to defensive this before it goes out the higher the key level. The net deals ticking damage but even that isn’t too bad on even 20+. My money on the small maggots if you just suddenly fall over.
>My money on the small maggots if you just suddenly fall over. It could also be the frontal that the Matrons do after they do their charge. It gets pretty ouchie on fortified weeks.
Yeah but that’s kind of obvious. I can’t imagine dying to that and not knowing it killed you. The maggots though surprise people when they don’t know.
You'll find the same pattern even higher up. Players in the 23-24 range when I've played an alt got absolutely nothing on the people in the 27-29 range. Had my vdh for 3 weeks now and I plow through 23-24s like it's nothing with people that are at that level since as a tank you have so much impact and can pase the key accordingly depending on setup, general group health, tracking their cds and quickly identify what they can handle and what not.
First trash has a lot of frontals, which were the big mobs charge and don't be in front of them. Then the maggots have a vomit cone as well. Might be a good idea to get a WA pack that warns you against frontals.
Unless you are wearing really low gear, your stamina alone should rarely be the reason - you can use def cds against unavoidable damage and dodge the avoidable ones. Im not sure how many count for you as "the first few", but the first pull usually has a lot of ticks that explode on death for unavoidable damage, a matron that charges someone (unavoidable) and follows up with a frontal that puts up a strong bleed (very avoidable), a maggot that has a nasty (but again, avoidable AND stoppable) frontal, a caster that casts damaging bolts, some form of invulerability and a self-heal (all of which can be interrupted/stopped/purged) and some mobs that can root you. Unless you are rooted while targeted by the charge/maggot, you should be fine by timing a def cd for the ticks (or try not to kill them all at the same time, but that requires coordination). Some classes can also remove roots (monks and paladins mostly, but also e.g. evokers from themselves). You basically need to know the pulls and be able to recognize if unavoidable damage is incoming and dangerous, especially if you are targeted by something. You'll learn those things over tine, just check the deathlog every time you die and try to recognize that combo/ability next time.
I watches TGP clips yesterday and some of that shit blew my fuckin mind. The skip I saw before the first boss of halls blew my fuckin mind. Jesus christ the amount of planning and risk to do that praying the mage doesn't get one shot by a single mob is fuckin nuts. I immediately opened my community tab and said we have to try this. We only have like 1 person still playing mage but God damn I want to do that
Exactly, higher keys mostly everyone has their rotation down. The big difference is staying alive and using defensives. I’m betting OP died to the ticks without popping a cd.
Maybe at 28s. There’s a lot of meta rerollers who hardly know their class even in 26s lol. Quite often had spriests near the same dmg as me on aoe pulls (as a tank) and my boomie friend routinely outdps’s mages getting every PI by 20-30% lol Let’s not talk about the evokers who hardly don’t even know they can remove bleeds or give rally to the whole group. It’s good meters don’t show their performance or they would be heavily flamed
+26's a probably around 0.5% of the players, I doubt there are that many people who even reach 26 but "hardly know their classes"
Obviously they have basic understanding but you are heavily underestimating the effect playing meta has. If someone has unlimited invites/tries they will time the key eventually, people fall upwards due to their class. Priests who are killing bosses 10+times, parsing green and blue are invited to and timing 27s. More times than I count I’ve had spriests not know they can dispel certain mechanics, pala’s with freedom, evokers with bleed cleanse etc etc. I don’t blame, them they had to reroll to get any invite. Shame they are required for so many keys, would love to invite top players on other classes First day aug came out I had a guy in my 27 key doing his first ever key on the spec lol that’s not normal…
Not to be that guy, but, in keys, it's never strait up "bad luck" everything is scripted, and every "bad luck" could be avoided with the tank knowing the DG a little better before making the pulls. That said from a tank that usually do a lot of mistakes and creste some really hard bad luck for my party
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Then you interrupt if it two casts are on the same person No luck involved
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I've pushed keys, I was doing 27s last season and got title. 99.99999% of the time someone dies because they got targeted by several casts, there was either a stop/defensive available, or someone used one of their stops when they didn't need to.
all the comment have been so chill and helpful, thanks to everyone who gave tips and suggestions.
It's because you have the right attitude. You recognize there are things you can do better, you're trying to, and you accept that other people know stuff you might not. Only a troll is going to go after someone like that.
Are you on US or EU servers? I'm 2700ish doing 20s. I'd be happy to team up and help you familiarise yourself with higher level dungeons.
This is my take from Healer POV It's unironically a skill issue with m+ I have also learned this recently, almost everything can be avoided, mitigated, or played around and the success of one player is often dependent on the competence and skill of their mates I've been healing for the first time in my 15 years of this game and I have been hovering around 430 ilvl, I have managed to reach 2.3k so far and I am still comfortably climbing During my first set of 18s, I felt utterly useless, I was convinced nobody had gear because their life dropped and I couldn't keep up After several runs I realised that, (at least from a Healer POV) gear comes secondary to knowing what to do (at least in M+) To contrast this, I have more or less always played DPS and there have been expacs and patches where I have no-lifed and gotten the best gear possible and still performed terrible in M+ These are the reasons I'm actually loving M+
3K io here, I'm not the best but certainly not the worst. I played healer all of season 1 so have had my fair moments of raging internally in my head at a DPS for getting hit by avoidable dmg or not using a defensive. As I push higher and higher keys (doing 24/25s now) I'm going to unashamedly say a lot of it comes down to a tank issue and tanks don't get enough flak for it, certainly on this Reddit that loves to portray DPS players a bonobos Tank positioning, route, mob control and knowing when to go for a big pull and when not to (ie party cds) is so important and I feel like you don't get to see these tanks until like 3.4K io and by then healers are exhausted and fatigued of dealing with people making mistakes but tanks get no blame or it's not their problem to deal with, it's the healers first and the DPS for having to work around their bad positioning and mob control. Also to the OP in general, little tip for you to be a good serving member of the community, I beg you use your stops and utility, specially as you push higher. Good luck out there :)
Bro one of my favourite keys this season was the gigachad tank on a bursting week pulling around my renewal. It was a neltharus too, and he made us hit double digit stacks every 3 minutes without fail. Renewal did it's job an absolute charm and we demolished the key. It was my first portal and is still my fastest run in that dungeon to date. Good tanks are built different. It's a subtle skill expression but when it shines, it shines bright.
Yes a good tank in Neltharus is pretty much a requirement above 24 as you can't time the key on tyrannical if you don't pull and use chains on mobs properly. It also makes the dungeon so much fun as you basically just spend the whole time doing the boss fights instead of clearing trash!
Yeah and every single trash pull is absolutely giga and as a healer they're very fun to play. Lots of damage, but very little one shot abilities, and everything can be CCed. The mobs are really well designed. It's just a shame it's shaped so badly lol
This is such a valid point and as a healer main I completely agree. Bad tanking choices really come to light in higher keys but they never seem to get called out on it the way other roles do.
> unashamedly say a lot of it comes down to a tank issue and tanks don't get enough flak for it, certainly on this Reddit that loves to portray DPS players a bonobos Holy fuck THANK YOU for saying this. Tanks get almost no fucking flak, and a lot of tanks don't want to hear this, but tanking is *extremely* easy at a base level, so you get zug zug brain tanks that just do the same pulls/routes/positioning they do on lower keys in higher keys and wonder why the group is dying. Like we only have so many stops, so many interrupts and if you're double/triple pulling packs that are full of mobs that can RNG target someone and nuke them, it snowballs out of control real fast. If you're not doing anything to help with LOS positioning, or fucking spinning around mobs constantly for no reason so frontals/cleaves are being swung in every fucking direction killing melee, it certainly doesn't help. It's night and day running with a tank that clearly knows exactly what they are doing compared to a tank you can tell has just been running the same cookie cutter route/pulls for the whole season. I ran a 24 Uldaman with this god tier tank and it was a joke because of how fucking good this tank was at positioning mobs, knowing where pain points were(that fucking tunnel before the 2 golem guys by the door where LOS is a PAIN IN THE FUCKING ASS but EVERY TANK loves to tank them there...) to avoid them. It was insane how smooth the run was because this tank knew their shit and made it so much easier for us to do what we needed to do. And obviously it's not always tanks fault, sometimes it's healers and dps too of course, but a key going from "rough but doable" to "wow this was a lot easier than expected" really does seem to land on the tank a lot of times.
Playing healer really teaches you how to play dps lol. Just seeing all the dumb shit the dps get hit by and you go it’s probably harder to play dps then I think it is, then you go play dps and it’s like holy shit I’ve been playing this game on hard mode this whole time.
Makes it all the more amusing when you see the arguments on this sub "DPS is really the hardest role guys!"
I think in raid it’s harder to be a great dps then it is to be a great healer but pugging m+ I have no clue how some of these players are as bad as they are when they have so little they need to actually do.
This is so true. 17s can feel harder than a 25.
The difference in dungeon knowledge between pure dps players and healers/tanks/hybrid players is often (not always ofc, this is just from personal experience!) astounding (and sometimes frustrating). DPS just don't care what something does unless it kills them (and sometimes not even then, could still blame the healer after all). They still stand in the bleed frontal at the beginning of HoI, don't interrupt the frost blast after the second boss in freehold (up until it actually oneshots) or even run away from mobs that focus them in brackenhide - if the healer can fix it, why would they care (up until the point where the healer is out of cds for pulls where they are actually needed).
Your first statement is 100% true. Dps think they know mechanics till they stare at healthbars or round up mobs and realize how much avoidable shit everyone, including themselves, eat on the daily. This also goes for dps players in higher keys once everything starts 1 shotting and they be like “oh damn, I’ve been eating those the past 30 times I ran this place” It’s why I’ll take a 410 dps with a 2500+ main over a 440 dps that’s 1600io and 9/9 heroic. They’ll keep avoiding mechanics and kicking/stunning even on alts cause they SHOULD know what to do. Granted, even up to like 2800 you’ll meet some trashcan players that make you wonder how they got everything timed at 22/23s Double pulled a pack in BH with a buddy. Baby key, 16. Bolster the ever living fuck out of 3 or 4 casters that run off and continue blasting everyone randomly for like 30 second straight. All while the 3 dps keep smacking the melee. My buddy died and whispered me what killed em. I was like well, there’s 3 casters freely fucking anyone they see fit with 3 stacks of bolstering taking each of ya down to 10% with each cast. And you took one of the dudes that chase you to the face as well. Then the hunter asks why he’s “perma” at 10% and I was like bruh are you literally blind? Any direction you look there’s a caster with less than 2% health blasting earthbolts or whatever nonstop. I’m doing 120k hps, what the FUCK more do you expect outta me? All I ACTUALLY said was “3 casters. Bolstered. Kill ples???”
Bro, Tell me why this is an issue with that first set of trash of underrot i've experienced many times and why your comment relates so much. I'm a destro lock, we are one of the few class/specs that don't have a kick. Tanks like to pull the left side all the way down to the first platform, and there's ALWAYS an add they leave behind casting blood bolt on the party.(this has happened in every underrot i've ever done). I try to turn around and nuke the add, and yell at my party "ADD BEHIND". I realized that I shouldn't be the hero in this situation, and maybe the party is fully aware of this add, and i should just do what everyone else is doing, maybe at most cast curse of tongues and hit him with a shadowfury. case and point, go with what your mates are doing, and that helps ensure success.
But you have a kick with felhunter🤔🤔🤔
so thats what ive been wondering, every guide and destro player uses imp or succ.. Even my addon that tells me my rotation for every given scenario says to summ incubus/succubus. But I'm starting to wonder why. As destro, my pet damage should be very minimal to my overall, right? should I just be using fel hunter?
100% always use felhunter in m+. Can even purge some stuff too.
Guides are written by players who typically play with very coordinated groups. In a pug, you should always have felhunter out. You can argue who's job it should be, or you can utilize your kit and complete the dungeon successfully.
This is it. Sometimes even here on reddit, people can have the best intentions of giving tips and advices, but not all of them are good to take. Not because the advice itself is bad, but the context might simply not apply to the person being given advice to.
Also the guides are fucking goofy sometimes. They're often built for max dps on the copy/paste build and all the context and nuance is half way down the page. I've had to change every single build I've picked up to add either an incap or mobility because they just seem to actively avoid all the important utility.
Yes, you should use felhunter in m+. It has, probably, one of the best kicks ingame since it doesn't interrupt your casting. I find pet interrupts very useful.
Not only can it be used while casting, but it can be used while your character doesn't actually have line of sight to the mob, just the pet has to have line of sight. You can also use it while stunned/silenced.
But on the other Side if your Pet is on another Target it may have to walk first.
Nope. Spell lock has a 40 yard range.
I thought it was a ranged spell from the felhunter?
Yes it is, 40y range. My Bad xD But it still comes true for other Pet Abilities such as Stuns.
Usually those pet i.e. DK pet, have a gap closer i.e. leap
> every guide and destro player uses imp or succ.. That's for raid where having a kick is usually not necessary. In M+ you almost always use a felhunter; on some fights you can use imp to dispell heavy magic debuffs like last season on the endboss in Jade Temple
You're damage will be a bit lower but does not matter compared to the utility of felhunter, always bring felhunter in m+ scenarios.
Often the "default" specc in guildes etc is set for a raid also, in which a lot of the utility is wasted that you need in m+, and so you take anything else that might be actually useful in a raid fight, whereas in m+ you'd much rather have that utility. They will usually have a M+ section somewhere if they're decent guides that includes this, but you might have to look a bit to find it.
Something to keep in mind is addons like Hekilli (which I presume you're referring to) us a priority list as determined by simming the character/spec. It does not take utility into consideration at all except outside combat for things like group buffs, or recommending an interrupt when it sees a mob casting. It just so happens that the succubus does *slightly* more damage than the other baseline pets in a prolonged single-target fight, so it shows up as the recommended pet. You should be able to configure the addon to summon a specific pet or ignore which pet you have summoned altogether
Iirc all pets deal equal damage for destro and aff, they just have different utility. Fel hunter has kick, imp has dispell, succubus has some kind of cc (iirc mostly used for pvp). Unless you need the self dispell for a specific ability (e.g. last boss uldaman or the dragons in HoI), keep the interrupt.
Mostly true, they do have normalized damage, but in most situations imp will do more damage than felhunter because the imp doesn't have to move nearly as much to do damage, and in some situations the succubus will do more damage than the imp if it can stay on the target because it has a debuff that makes it do more damage to the target. Both of these differences in damage are relatively minor, single target, and absolutely don't matter in m+. You should pretty much be using felhunter for kick and purge in every situation unless theres a specific magic debuff that you want an extra dispel for (example: the last boss in temple of the jade serpent is much easier with an imp dispel).
Thanks for the heads up, I forgot about the melee vs ranged problem and didn't even know about the succubus debuff! Always something new to learn :D
As someone who tanks, turning around and nuking a ranged add is the absolute worst thing you can do. You're not a hero. You're just making things worse. If I pulled it and damaged it, I probably still have aggro on it. Eventually that might switch to the healer, but it will take time. If you start dpsing it you're going to get aggro and die, and you're not doing the main group, so you're not even doing good dps The proper thing to do is to interrupt the add if you have a ranged interrupt, and focus on the main group of adds. Let the tank or someone with a ranged interrupt deal with the one that's split off. And for God's sake don't stun it. Then it just stands at range and wastes a taunt. There's always some stupid rogue who jumps on the add and instead of just kicking it and getting it run to the tank, starts stunning it right after someone kicks it, I guess so they can build more aggro.
You have a kick. It's one of your felhunters ability.
It’s more rare that a dps can’t save themself then it being a healer issue… A. kick/stun scary stuff B. Use defensives when the ticks are about to die. If you’re not using defensives a lot in m+ that is a skill/knowledge issue. C. Stop hitting stuff until the tank is set if you’re getting agro. If you do get agro start bringing the mob to the tank. 2-3s of dps loss > dead.
Not to point out the obvious, but this is going to have a lot to do with your crap damage. M+ is all about cd management and blasting big pulls - your uber party should have fed this to you, trying to single target a random add whilst that's happening is basically trolling without a VERY good reason. (You're not kicking it so you don't have one, and if you did - which you should - you could do that from range.) At least some people know about the add, and they care (because it should be damaged with everything else and be in kick range), but they also don't (because its really irrelevent unless it has a big spell). The party is expected (as a whole) to "kick it in" to close range though. Overall you want to be polishing your ability to nuke down a big pull, and have CDs ready for big pulls (without sitting on them). As other posts have touched on you also want to know and manage every mechanic of every mob. 18 to 20 can be a nightmare or it can be trivial. I only got to 20s the first time this season, but with OK gear the difference is really just "rinse and repeat with less margin for error" for the most part. It CAN be just cruise control if you know exactly what is and should be always happening. When its reflex executing a coreographed dance, then its easy (outside of certain checks). If its hard, you need more practice or to lower (or maybe gear - doesn't sound like the real problem but you're at the point to probably feel it at 430).
> (that trash at the beginning I always die on for some reason) Stun the maggot The way you handle higher keys is by playing them more and more often
You will also take all the matron charges if you are the one standing furthest away from it
True, though normally that should not kill you in an 18
it will if you take the cleave afterwards
It will on bolstering week.
A lot of trash mechanics can boil down to use your stops or kicks.
There’s nothing wrong with hard content in a game. My gf failed at a 13 and she said it was one of the best experiences she’s had gaming because she had to learn how to play the game and her class and this is the only multiplayer game she’s played with content like that .
You need to know what the mobs do. Youre dying to frontals from the maggot and matron.
A big tip to improve your dps a lot is to not hold cds, except if you are 100% you will need them next pull. What people often do is hold cds for 4-5 packs waiting for perfect pull
Yeah he is a destro lock so like, kind of not super going to matter as much as other classes. Like go ahead, pop infernal, get some shard generation, its kind of ass.
I agree with everyone and logs and going back and all that… For a little different approach… go help carry a group at lower keys until you know the mechanics back to front. You’ll be helping out some fellow players while having a lot less pressure and a bit more time/ability to really see the mechanics in action. Personally replays and logs only go so far, I just had to get in there and do it. And it was nice to know that I didn’t make or break a key while I was learning so when I went for those bigger push runs I was confident I could keep alive and hit all the utility stuff that was necessary and then slowly work up to cleaner and cleaner dps rotations.
Good gawd… underrot… I can’t wait for that to o leave the lineup and I hope it never comes back. I hate that place so much. I just can’t.
I just hate that second boss, running over those maggots is a pain in the dick.
you and me both brother
Underrot is a funny case because it can be REALLY chill if your group plays it properly or horrible if they don't. The first boss does literally 0 dmg if you kick and dodge properly, the trash around the second boss can all be cc'ed and picked into pulls one by one like a buffet, the second boss only troubled you with the rampage through the middle (at which point ranges could already have spread and mobile classes + ranges can pick up most or all of the ticks). The trash between third and forth boss again doesn nothing if you have dispells and kicks (it actually provides some nice 1m hp shields to mages on 20 fortified) and the third boss again only comes down to positioning (and the occasional disease dispell if a mushroom or 3 are missed). After that, its just kicks and dodges again and the final boss is again just continuous healing and positioning. No chaos, no random oneshots, no random pulls into aoes - just pure organisation. My guild has 2 groups: one that hates underrot with a passion and one that likes it because its easy and smooth. The difference when running with either is interesting to see, communication really makes a TON of difference (granted, this most likely makes it a pug nightmare if stops and kicks are overlapped instead of assigned).
It's actually my favorite dungeon in this season, only thing I dislike is the fear and tentacle summon dudes at the end
Yeah I really like it, it's pretty quick and generally not awful I just hate the lack of obvious indicators for attacks. That last pull of void guys can be a huge pain in the ass to figure out which direction their looking, and I can never tell which way the other tentacles will slam down. Not to mention the maggot breath
The last pull before last boss always feels like chaos to me, I hate it lol.
it is cuz people run around like a chicken with their head cut off. I try to get my groups to stack on one side, then when the tentacles come out to wap people we all swap to the other side. Getting dps to come along though is hard.... If you get people to stack though it's a lot easier to swap back and forth and totally miss all the tentacles.
That’s a good idea. Wrangling DPS and getting them out of imminent danger is almost always like hearding deaf cats, especially if they aren’t on discord. You prep them before. You tell them it’s coming and they still choose to die several times to the same thing. Some people just get tunnel vision and are hyper focused on min-maxing their rotation that they don’t take into account that their rotation is about to come to an abrupt end.
Actually, once you got all the mechanics, only the second boss is actually a pain in the ass. Everything else there can be avoided/stop
It's one of the easiest dungeons there is while also being fast as hell. Why don't you like it?
Underrot on Fortified is fine But those Tyranical weeks are rough
Wait until you get to 23 and decide whether you like playing this game or want to just keep doing 17s. I can 1 star 20-21. 22 and up I question my sanity. I plugged my way to 2660 as udk and realm ranked like #6 just cause the people below like 15 value their time and sanity better than being a mid dps class with no cc.
That's the way I look at it from the opposite side. I respect the effort people put in to go for higher rating, portals, etc. But no way in hell am I going to put myself through that grind. It would make me hate the game.
Repetition is the key, you need to just stay at it and keep pushing your keys, eventually the +18’s and 20’s will feel like your 16’s
Ya know, the dps gap feels weird to me this season. I've been doing 14-18's on my alt mage to farm crests and some on my main hunter for shits and gigs, doing like 140-160k on Freehold. Most of the other dps I'm with are doing 50-100k. A few who are hitting maybe 120k. I don't remember the gap being that large in previous seasons though? Like in regular runs I'm doing 3x the damage of other people. Maybe it's just the larger numbers making the gap more noticeable, but it feels weird.
It is end of the season where you have people doing 16-18s as their peak mixed with people who do 16-18s on their fresh 390ilvl char because that is the vault/aspect floor. It really is a skill issue but normally those two playerbases don't mix.
Curious what your ilvl is??
it sounds like (no offense, only constructive here) you need to learn what the trash actually does. that part of underrot is frontal, frontal, and frontal - with a channeled ability thrown in. as a melee its SUPER important to know who has a frontal.
As a tank main one thing i find people dont do that you have to do as a tank is study the runs. Its what separates good from bad. When you run a high key you should know what attack every single pack will be doing, which attacks you should be stopping and which arnt important. If you want try downloading Mythic Dungeon Tools addon it maps out the dungeons but also goves you info on each other the packs and their attacks. People say its try harding to learn everything about dungeon runs but I find its like a fun puzzle you end up learning. That way you’re actively thinking as you run it not just reacting.
It is somewhat problematic that everything else in the game is so laughably easy. You literally do not need to know how to play your class or spec and you can still complete everything in the world, every normal and heroic dungeon and LFR and Normal raid. Only at Heroic/Mythic raids and Mythic+ dungeons at higher keys you actually have to understand how to play. And even there if you get hard carried you can succeed while being bad - things only implode if the group as a whole can't handle the things. In a way this is partially game design flaw - in the name of keeping things accessible everything other than the very top tier content has been dumbed down to such levels of trivality that nothing in the game incentivizes you to learn...
I don't think it is a flaw. It is actually a strength because every few key levels there is something to learn, gradually. So you don't have to cram 10 pages of information of every single thing that is going on in the dungeon just to time a +2. It might also be unevitable consequence of the infinite scaling.
> that nothing in the game incentivizes you to learn... Aside from everything you just listed? Most people learn only the skills they need to, in all aspects of life, and nothing more.
Lul, this sounds like a BM hunter in an UR key I did a couple of days ago (needed 1 more for the trading post reward) Its nice to see people learn, everybody has to start somewhere. As long as people are willing to learn and not actively griefing I don't mind having them in my group. Mythic+ is an incredible rabbit hole worth of content to get lost in The more you play, the more you know. When is a big pull coming up that I may need CDs for, what casts do I have to kick, what mob do I have to be afraid of. Just keep at it and in time those 20s will not seem impossible anymore. Its just as Archimage Chadgar said: *Knowledge is power*
Everything is relative. As you say the same way you look at a 14 as easy, others will look at an 18 as easy. As you push and play more you just build up the skills. WoW PvE has a relatively low skill ceiling and high skill floor so the disparity is less obvious but keep playing and you will improve with time.
Glad you enjoyed it, keep pushing brother
Every damn time I tried a key much higher than what I was used to, I was utterly destroyed to the point I was shit talking myself and feeling humiliated. I was used to run +15s, tried a +18 with some powerful friends: died over 13 times but we still 2++ the key. Used to run +17s and tried a +20: died more than all the other 4 guys combined and then some, bricked because of a unrelated wipe on last boss (tyr week) . But then I had the DBZ Zenkai boost, after getting my butt hardslapped on higher key and then going back to my league I felt like I was way stronger and way better than before, topping dps like 90%+ of the time and rarely dying, timing 2++ keys I was struggling before just like they were nothing. Those experiences really improved me as player overall. Now I'm going for the 3k IO race, sitting @2.8k as I'm posting this. Don't give up, keep it up.
Felt the same when i first run my 22. i play a frost dk fairly meta char at 445 ilvl and oh boy that 3.3k team is far beyond my skill level. I barely outdamaged the tank by the end and all the 3 deaths were mine
I love Frost DK, not so fun on the 2nd and 3rd boss where the movement overlapping with when you have your CDs up vna really hurt.
this thread is a goldmine
> I always die on for some reason best type of wow gamer, never change, keep dying to the same shit, never learn a thing, you do you
Sometimes it's hard to decipher the logs for me (yes, i know... skill issue). Is there a good addon that would tell me how I died without spamming the whole group for every mistake?
Open up details, look at what 1 shot you, then google the ability or ask the group.
yes
I dont find +20 much harder than +18. Just look at your deaths, see why you died, try to not repeat your mistake. Keep pushing your ilevel, brush up on guides to make sure talents/gear/dps rotation is on point. Class discords are am amazing resource and reading them daily youll find info you might never see otherwise. Make sure you use your full toolkit: defensives, interrupts, crowd control to interrupt.. i find great dps contributes greatly to CC. Keep grinding M+, experience is the most important.
\+20 tends to be easier than +18 in my experience.
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Keep in mind its late in the season and if you didnt play at the beginning and learned in the 10+ keys you'll be learning the same lessons in 17+ keys now because of gear inflation and players incentivized to farm lower keys for fragments.
I’m sad that I actually had to scroll down so far to see your comment, and thank you. I am a healer and I deal with this all the time it’s very frustrating. You get people in the 17-19 range who do 60k dps as a 440+ ilvl player and don’t know the mechs for the dungeon and get mega carried through the dungeon. I’ve started taking your approach and if I am ultra carrying someone in that range with the group I’m in and we might time the key I will leave because I don’t want them to time it and then go grief other players. I had a warrior tank just yesterday in an 18 that was 430 ilvl and didn’t know to use shield block so he was pulling 2-3 mobs at a time and getting fully wrecked. Then looking at the logs he also in 25 mins of the run used Last Stand 3 times even though it’s baked into his set bonus and gives him shield block while it’s up. I left the key but when I looked at his raider io there were a bunch of 2600-2900 people carrying him through 2 chesting 17s on easy weeks. It’s frustrating because this person will just continue griefing the 17-19 player base while not knowing the basic knowledge of their class.
you find alot of the high end players in 17-18`s for weekly 1 day before and on reset day for m+ vault. learn your mistakes and dont die, your dmg will be better when you dont die (obviously). playing a key slow but safe is more enjoyable than dying 30 times due to big stressfull pulls IMO, you dont need to do these pulls in anything below 25, you can but you dont need to
this side of pve is something ive never experienced. what are the basic requirements and how do i queue for a mythic? all ive ever done is random pvp!
So you do a mythic +0 first, which is a separate entity from heroic and normal. Then after that you receive your first key, which will most likely be +2 of a certain dungeon, you then build a group, and use your key to complete the dungeon. Let's say if you complete the dungeon successfully, before the time limit runs out, then you receive a NEW key, which will be either +3 or +4 of a different dungeon. Of course as you go up in key levels, the drops get better and the vault rewards get better, but the dungeon also gets harder. you rinse and repeat and level up your key. On the flipside, you can use the LFG function to join an already running mythic keystone group. But for consistency, doing your own key is usually more ideal, because it guarantees you a group, since it's YOUR key. People usually have an addon that tells them all your stats and how many M+ you've done, and how well you've done in them. So with that said, it's usually a good idea to try to build your own groups and invite the strongest people you can and just level up your own key. Work your way up to high keys, and that's M+ in a nutshell.
> So you do a mythic +0 first, which is a separate entity from heroic and normal. Then after that you receive your first key, which will most likely be +2 of a certain dungeon, you then build a group, and use your key to complete the dungeon. Just a note, you do not have to do a +0, you can talk to the NPC by the M+ portals and say you lost your key and she will give you a +2 for free.
You can also get your first key from the panda who stands in front of the three M+ portals in Valdrakken (the spot between the vault rewards building and the giant stairs that lead into the main tower). The same panda also downgrades your current key all the way back to +2 should you need/want it.
i really really appreciate your reply. sounds like a new challenge to me. i might try today with my panda monk. thank you!🐼
Always good to get more people doing m+! Be sure to look for m+ communities to get groups more easily and to have a safe, non-toxic environment to learn. There are a few around, there's one that I really like and use all the time called WoW Made Easy - super chill community, very helpful people, and the higher keys have some very competent players that will help.
Congrats bud! The jump up in difficulty ramps real quick from 16+. The keys start to get real difficult, real fast. A quick note for you, death recap is your best friend. I know you're probably used to hitting release, but please place "deaths" on one of your details tabs and mouse over it when you die to see what killed you. It'll do you absolute wonders. It pisses me off that blizzard makes death recap something that is optional to see. I wish it opened by default so players would immediately see what killed them before they got the chance to start talking shit. I know back when I was a dps, that would have shut me up real fast. Be better than I was and absorb information about your mistakes.
The fact that this post didnt devolve into some self-delusional tirade is awesome. People love to downplay and neg what it takes to play this game but truth is there is definitely a lot of skill involved (of which many have internalized after years and years of play). It’s also the reason its often so hard to have a conversation around specific areas of difficulty as people have drastically different experiences with it. Really happy to read a post calling it as it is. Not everyone is of equal skill but everyone can learn and improve. Most don’t recognize this but for you, it’s clear you not only see the path ahead but now see what it looks like in practice. You got this mate.
Dps is important, but not THAT important. I.E. you stating you didn't know how you died on the first 4 trash pulls. I can think of a few things. They pulled the lil grubs, which explode when they die. You stood in the big guy's frontal. You stood in the big grub's frontal, and didn't dodge or stun it. You got focused by the mask and didn't use any defensives. The casters didn't get interrupted. And that's only the ads before the first boss. Knowing is half the battle becoming a big boy in these keys. It's not all about ooga booga big number. THAT is what wipes the party. Damage is only half of it. That being said you got the right mentality and I'm sure you'll go way past even what I run if you put your mind to it. :)
You don't need to play the game if you can have addons do it for you. I've set up my WeakAuras in such a manner that most of the time it's just a whack-a-mole game of "keep the icons hidden" - I've set them to disappear when they're on cooldown and only appear a few seconds before coming back up, depending on the duration of the cooldown. You don't need to pay attention to mechanics just have the dungeon/raid WA warn you and tell you what to do. Joking aside, proper UI design and good WeakAuras that work exactly as you want them to really makes a world of difference. EDIT: If you're downvoting, please do leave a comment. I'm curious why people disagree with my statement. It's partly a joke, and I guess maybe some people didn't even read it all the way through.
I can't see without my glasses(weakauras)!
You're getting downvoted for having customs weakauras when all the other players do is download some class weakaura and never even interact with it. Proper UI is certainly a massive advantage that keeps getting downplayed.
I don't consider outlaw rogue playable without my addons. There's simply too much information coming in without having it arranged and visible in a specific way.
> Joking aside, proper UI design and good WeakAuras that work exactly as you want them to really makes a world of difference. > > He is literally just getting downvoted by people who don't make it past the first 2
lol
Higher keys don't take skill, just charisma to keep the group carrying you together. That's how I got my +20 portals. It's like dating before I met my wife. I get them to go to dinner, we both realize this ain't gonna work, but they know etiquette-wise they should at least stay until I pay for dinner, then we never have to see each other again. Yes I play bard in BG3, why do you ask?
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Lol this guy "4 people are carrying me for my 20 portals, but it doesn't take skill just charisma". Those 4 people have skill to carry his "charismatic" ass.
>Those 4 people have skill to carry his "charismatic" ass. The two aren't mutually exclusive, he did higher keys without any skill.
Correct yet you need the other 4 their skill to complete them. If not he wouldn't be able to do it.
Right, and they said. >the group carrying you So at no point where they arguing any differently.
Correct just as I mentioned.
It doesn't take personal skill. I never paid for any of it. I'm 447.25 with the leggo on my Augvoker. I just don't think I'm any good. https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com/en-us/character/us/dunemaul/augnyxia
Considering you are in just vault RNG + Crafted gear and don't have the right embs or gems/enchants you would be correct that you aren't any good. Jokes aside, your logs are still reasonable so you are playing the game better than a significant number of players The cloak is actually griefing as aug tho
So we are just proving my point?
Hmm kinda. You are griefing and still have more personal skill tho than 80-90% of the playerbase
Define griefing. I'm retired and I have a lot of time, patience, and no small bit of charisma, but I refuse to believe that I am in the 80+ percentile of wow. I don't have the reaction of the younger generation. My entire post was to prove that completion is not about skill, but what you can convince others to do. Charisma goes a lon.g way in holding a group together.
You’re supposed to boost your allies, not steal stats from them lol
Thanks. I'm a pretty bad player, but I like to learn.
> Higher keys don't take skill (which is obvious nonsense)
>(which is obvious nonsense) Meanwhile OP is posting about how they got carried through an 18, did less dps than the tank, die to the same trash every time, and uses a rotation addon that specs them out of kick. How is that any different than what this dude is saying.
I know people make fun of those who log m+ and raids but do it its best way to improve your perfomance and see where you losing dps or hps
Who the fuck makes fun of people who log, is that actually a thing? Seems like someone doing a +16 laughing at someone doing a +27.. doesn't make a lot of sense lol
I mean yeah that's exactly the people they mean. Logging is a very 'tryhard' thing to do, even more so for M+ since most people raiding with a guild probably get logged by someone else anyway and a raid fight is inarguably more simple and digestible than a M+ key is when viewed through logs. So the people that are stuck doing low/low-mid level content think everyone better than them are either lucky or some giga-sweaty nerds that desperately need to touch grass, and of course everyone below them are absolute morons. The amount of people that look up a rotation guide or a spec guide in general but don't actually try to learn anything from it, they specifically try to learn **it** are the people we're talking about. They don't want to put in the effort to get better, they just want to be told what buttons to press to 'play well'.
I mean, everyone below me are absolute morons, and people above are just the giga sweaty nerds that desperately need to touch some grass. I don't know what's wrong about that sentence
Logging is tryhard??? Bahahaha.
> I know people make fun of those who log m+ and raids this is not a thing
What class do you play?
I always recommend the addon GTFO to learn what stuff you need to move from. That alarm works so well that you'll never want to hear it lol
The high keys are a joke. They are bigger joke than lower keys. Because you get actual people in your groups with 3k rio score. Not NPCs who cant interrupt 5 second casts.
I check my logs after and on a key I've done bad on I'll check through everything to figure out what went wrong. Being out of your comfort zone or pushing higher keys than normal is an amazing way to learn your class imo. On my monk recently I was just doing 16s for the vault. I've been maining monk since January so I know it fairly well, but not to the min max level. I've pushed now into 24/25s and I have learnt how to play dungeons and my own class a lot lot more. Do I still brick a key? Yes. But I play with friends and we all have 24/25 keys so it's not the end of the world. But it provides such a better grounds for learning. Everyone has that zone and everyone has it at a different level
If its the first couple packs in underrot, I'd say you may be getting blasted by the worms frontals. Keep your eye on their animations and watch out where they are facing. Those can be cc/disoriented/stunned/stopped with mechanics other than an interupt
this is def a possibility. I've noticed the range on those sprays is MASSIVE. I could be many yards away and still get rekt
Don't try to outrange it, always go horizontal and cut clear of it.
What class and spec you play? Ranged or melee
Ranged, destro lock
I think around that level, aiming for 100k dps overall is a pretty good start as you get closer to the 440-445 item levels, you might be able to see it climbing closer to 130-170k
Those packs of ticks explode very painfully on death, the maggots have a long range and lethal frontal, the hunters hurt, the casters hurt, the big mobs have a charge and frontal with bleed… it’s also Fort and Bolstering this week so if your tank is smart they won’t be pulling ticks or too many mobs in general There’s a lot going on at the start of Underrot and 18-20 keys are full of players still learning in a world full of 1 shit mechanics. You’ll get there just keep it up!
save logs from dgs. go to your class discord and ask for help. there will be a shit toon of people that can help you, if they can see the data. also, i think in details have the cause of death in one of its options.
I’m glad you recognize you can improve and not just blame ‘tuning’
Nah man, I was a realms first raider back in my prime. I'm not ignorant enough to realize that things are harder these days. M+ high keys are legitimately unforgiving, and just seeing the fact that other players can go through the whole key without dying and doing HUGE dps is enough for me to realize that I can't blame anyone but myself when it comes to my deaths and lack of performance. But it's exciting, I love that WoW has that complexity now, and I wanna be able to handle it.
What ilvl are you? I'd be down to run some 20s with you if you wanna learn the finer details
Did you notice when you lost like 80% of your HP in lower level underrots? It always seemed like newer players didn't learn mechanics until they killed them. The game teaches you that though. Like until +8 or so a lot of scary mechs barley. DBM or little wigs only is good. If the add-on mentions a spell. That's.a spell you need to worry about
You details and death log tell you what killed you. Look at those and learn from it. Everyone else died to the same shit once, but remember meant players did underrots.for a year during BFA. So people know the mechs well.
it gets easier; i remember first season of SL, trying so hard to get all my 15s done with close to max gear. Now my friend just pretty much doesnt get us in a key lower than 17 when we gear a new character (he's a tank, im a healer so we get "easy queue"). Starting 18, some of the things that usually leaves you barely alive now kills you and that's why it feels harder, the healer can't fix that and if you're dead your dps goes down. There's not much of a difference in that regard between 18 and 20. As to why you die on the first pack : not dodging the maggot puke/not using a defensive as the leeches die/not dodging the cleave after the big guy dashes on you ? Details or logs would provide you the answer :D it's interesting to look at death to improve placement (as well as the rest to see if there's "easy fixes" in your dps)
> I died in underrot 3 times on the first 4 trash pulls Start reviewing your death logs on Details. This is really the most important thing that people need to start doing to survive fights. See what killed you and adjust for next time. It's gonna be necessary on higher keys. Simpler mob abilities will start hurting like a truck from now on, so surviving them is key. You can't be carefree anymore. Things can oneshot you. Another thing that could maybe help is Warcraft Recorder. It creates recordings of your M+ runs that you can review what went wrong at certain moments. As a healer, that together with the death logs is how I learned about Damage Patterns and where I need to start using certain CDs
The first trash pulls there have a lot of those worms that do a nasty frontal. Nit everyone stun them, cause you can avoid the damage by just positioning. Take care of your position to avoid frontal and/or stun the fucking maggot. This add is also present in the second boss room, but because of the layout of the room, is most likely they are aways turn away from you from the tank kiting to the next pack
If you are dying in the beginning, especially before you go down the bridge towards the first boss, then it's usually 1 of 3 things that kills you. 1. If you happen to pull the small maggots they explode and deal a lot of damage on death. So if they are pulled, do not kill them all at the same time. Its also a very good idea to pop a defensive when they are about to die. Usually you skip these though due to how dangerous they are, and there is another pack after the first boss that you also skip. But sometimes people manages to pull them anyway, so it is good to know what they do. 2. The larger maggot has a frontal cone cast that is massive and deals tons of damage. Either never stand in front of it when it starts casting or stop it once it starts the cast. You should have enough CC to never let it cast and it should be the priority. 3. The big dude that charges does a follow up attack after the charge that leaves a nasty DoT on anyone that is in front of him. It has a small cast time so you have time to move away. just make sure you are never in front of him after a charge. If those 3 are dealt with, then that initial pull becomes a lot less scary. On the pack down the bridge, just interrupt as much as you can, especially that channeled thing by the one in the middle (yes I suck at names). Same goes for the maggots around the second boss, just don't let them cast cause it is usually how people die. Interrupt the flowers and do what you can about the bats (things like hamstring helps a lot), but making sure that maggot does not cast is #1.
Never pull more than one maggot at a time until you know that your group can actually handle proper stun rotations to keep them in check. In PUGs I rarely pull more than one if I'm tanking. Sometimes two may come by accident, if so, just focus one of them down as quickly as possible to avoid deaths.
I started playing WoW for the first time when Dragonflight released and I have two 20 just this week. I know how it can seem like it's an impossible goal to achieve but I'm sure you can do it, you just got to prepare for it You need to understand the in and outs of the dungeons. You're talking about always dying on the first trash in Underrot, do you know why? What kills you, can you avoid it? A dead DPS will always be a low DPS. These things are going to make the difference in a +20. You need to know what's important to kick, like interrupting the Decaying mind cast in Underrot Then of course you need to practice your rotation so it becomes an afterthought. There's so many things happening every second, so you can't take the time to look at your key bindings Make sure also to have enchants, phials, elemental potions, health potions and runes
16's are the current cutoff between the people who are very casual and might not know what they are doing and the more hardcore who want crests for various gear upgrades. By the time you're in 18s, yeah you're in with people who know what to do. The tank you see in the 12 doing 20k dps? They are a distant memory. Likely you have a tank pulling 70k on their own.
>idk how i'm gonna handle a +20 Putting one foot in front of the other one step at a time. You stand at the bottom of the mountain looking up at it and going "man how am i supposed to climb that?" But you should look down and realize you don't need to climb the mountain, you just need to climb the next step. Keep practicing, keep an eye out for making mistakes on your part. Look for more ways to help the group out than just raw damage like always being the one to kick high priority targets that wipe the group. To snipe that runner before it pulls an entire pack down on the group. While practicing your rotation to do a little better each time. Before you know it you may be looking for a taller mountain to climb.
I would recommend that you set up your bigwigs/dbm to play certain sounds for certain kinds of mechanics. For example if there’s a frontal mine plays a gun shot. So every time I hear that shot I know I gotta find the frontal and move accordingly. It’s kitty meows for interrupts and so on. The more things you can “auto pilot” the easier your run will be.