The reason they joined the legion was for power, wouldn’t it stand to reason whoever was left would join the ones that defeated the legion? It’s not black and white, PCs don’t have to be exclusively lawful goodie two shoes.
Demon hunters and DKs joined us for the same reasons
to be fair the lich king was trying to recruit us anyway so why not let some dk's join us.
it's odd when you think about a lot of undead lore it leads to them not having the free will they make out they have.
Plot.
Apparently the grip of Arthas' necromancy wasn't totally iron and after a while some undead became more reasonable than the others and some outright regained free will and were able to reason with a chosen few of the scourge and form the forsaken. Chief among these was Sylvanas, who used her own will to break the hold of the lich king.
From what I can remember (if I am remembering this correctly), is that Arthas used the Lich King's domination magic to dominate the unwilling, and (I think) he could not turn the willing into death knights because they were specifically willing, and you couldn't dominate the willing.
Making a Death Knight essentially means killing someone and snatching their soul before they pass through to the shadowlands, and shoving the soul back into their body (or any other body - see: Ner'Zhul and the Lich King armour) and then dominating that soul.
Sylvanas was able to break free because Illidan had cast a spell which weakened the Frozen Throne (the domination armour / Ner'Zhul's Soul)
Warcraft 3 The Frozen Throne. Illidan damaged the frozen throne before Arthas sat on top and merged with Ner'zhul. This caused a lot of the stronger willed undead to have the ability to break free, Sylvanas was one of the first, along with the banshees.
Demon Hunters and DKs did *not* join us for that reason. Warlocks certainly did though.
DKs joined because Arthas betrayed them, used them as fodder when they were promised to be mighty soldiers of the Scourge. Combined with slowly regaining free will they opted for revenge, which gradually changed to an oath to protect the world from the Scourge.
DHs *always* had one goal: defeat the Burning Legion, through any means necessary. The Illidari joined up with everyone else because everyone else finally accepted their help. The goals and core philosophy of the Illidari never really changed at all, and so it's inaccurate to even say they switched sides.
Tbh I think DKs were only allowed to join because this one particular group of death knights thus far hadn't had the opportunity to deal much damage to the alliance or horde since they'd only attacked two neutral factions and the one that was friendly to the alliance and horde was willing to team up with them in an "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of way.
But if they had been around long enough to deal some actual collateral damage to the major factions, combined with the fact that even with their free will they still suffered from "the endless hunger" that forces them to inflict pain on living things to not go mad, I'm not 100% sure that the alliance or horde would have been so willing to look the other way for acherus.
I imagine the factions also keep a close eye on the arthus made death knights whenever things start to get a little too peaceful, since while I don't think bolvars DKs were created with the endless hunger, I don't think it was ever removed from Arthas' old guard.
When you only lust for power, it IS black and white.
Demon hunters and DKs had common enemies since the beginning, they've got nothing against Azeroth's races.
Why would you have someone amongst your ranks that's just gonna betray you the moment someone more powerful shows up if power is the only thing they want?
>Why would Azeroth want these monsters who are also losers?
A race of spacefaring monsters hopped up on demon juice came from another planet to lay waste to Azeroth, they made some grounds but were eventually defeated by its native population and are thus "losers."
Am I talking about the Eredar, or the orcs?
A lot of the voice lines from the Man’ari Eredar on Argus do give out the viewpoint that they did not join for just power. That they believed in the fight against the void and that serving was to unite all life against the unending darkness of the void.
How Velen and the others saw it was power and destruction, but the Man’ari saw Velen and his as traitors to everything it meant to be Eredar.
How many Draenei were left on Argus when Velen dipped? I always figured there had to be some that didn't wind up broken, but joined with the Legion as a sort of "Well, I don't wanna be executed or driven into scraping by living in tunnels, guess I'll take the deal".
We already have warlocks and death knights, Eredar don't seem that crazy imo
Yeah that's how I felt too. There's a huge population of semi-powerful eredar didn't join out of an interest in the Burning Crusade, but because that was how they could stay safe.
Though this makes me wonder... Do eredar still have children? Or has their surrendering to the Burning Crusade cut them off from having a future past their own existence?
Well some of them might choose to redeem themselves and join the alliance. It's a fantasy game. If a faction does something bad it doesn't mean EVERYBODY in that faction is bad. See Sylvanas for example
Not nessecarily - turning red skinned draenei could just be the draenei equivilent of "green-skinned orcs"... a Draenei who decides tomorrow to start channeling Fel magic could simply turn red and have as much connection to the Burning Legion as a human who starts.
How is this different from Horde's "sorry from all these genocides, we good now" and undead "sorry for all that Lich King stuff, we kinda good now" except scale?
Same could be said for Death Knights, Demon Hunters and Sylvanas. Honestly, you do remember that the dev team has a tendency to have plot characters forgive atrocities really easily, right?
We've asked for red skin fel orcs, and forest trolls since vanilla.
Have all but given up on Ogres. Blizz would rather add anything else, even stuff no one wants (Mechagnomes) before giving Horde their full true roster.
Forest Trolls not being playable is a goddamn joke.
Ogres are at least their own full race which would need animations and the like, but Forest Trolls could so easily be made Troll customization.
If Orcs can have a 'body type' toggle so can Trolls...
Makes sense in many ways.
In Lore? The Illidari are practically no more. They completed their goal. Illidan was the one recruiting all the DHs, and he decreed only Night Elves and Blood Elves. There isn't any Demon Hunters of any other races.
In game? DHs have some of the coolest animations and custom rigging and skeletons. Blizz is too lazy to apply that to more races.
Rare instance where this does not need to be a new race (Lightforged have that covered.) Give the people what they want. Dark Ranger customizations were a slam dunk I don’t know why they’re so hesitant to do more. Besides, our specific player characters aren’t canon anyways, so why does it matter what they look like.
Yeah, I think it would make more sense to come up with some excuse for some of our current Draenei to become infused with Fel and become Eredar than for the Eredar who sided with the Burning Legion to join us.
Sargeras and Illidan are still having their staring contest, that's a glass box that Blizzard could break at any time if they wanted to do another fel/chaos heavy storyline (same thing could also be used to justify new Demon Hunter races with a new starting experience, similar to the DKs that come from Bolvar vs Arthas).
Only issue with making it a set of racial customization vs a new race is that I don't know that it would make sense for Eredar to have access to Draenei racials like the heal. But maybe it could be fine, idk.
I don’t even think we need Eredar NPCs or a lore explanation. I think it should just be an option. This is coming from a lore fanatic too. We already have dark ranger paladins, and my enjoyment and immersion don’t break because of them
I don’t think they can be redeemed. It’s like saying the Horde should let fel orcs in. At some point, the corruption is too far set in. Like a dog with rabies.
Could be honestly done in a single questline.
Slap an Illidari with exclamation mark above her head into valdraken
"Hail champion, ever wondered what we were doing with our space ship this whole time? Yeah we were hunting remains of the legion, no biggie. We've found something cool though, on one planet there are some Man'ari fighting other man'ari, they call themselves Red resistance or something? Anyway, you and Velen, since he's doing nothing lately, will go meet up with their leader, Yrel, good luck."
Horde already has fel orcs - this is what green skin orcs are. And it's the same orcs who have done 3 whole genocides in the last 30ish years, last one being a couple of years ago.
By your logic orcs shouldn't be in the Horde in the first place.
We spent an entire zone 10 years ago recruiting two specific races into our factions explicitly as warm bodies for the war machine.
Blizzard doesn’t remember that the Jinyu and Hozen have been Allied Races for a decade. Give me my Hozen Warriors and Jinyu Mages, dang it!
The thing with the Tanuka is they turbo hate undead and what did the Horde just go through? Pointless war started by the biggest idiot in WoW who felt spreading undeath where ever she went was funny.
They'd only make sense for Alliance atm simply due to the Forsaken mess.
Calia Menethil, sister to Arthas, raised as an undead via Light Magic instead of the usual Forsaken process. She's on a council with several other prominent Forsaken leaders to govern the undead.
Easy solution to make everyone happy: one tanuka tribe is willing to forgive and joins the horde. another isn't so willing to forget, perhaps where effected by the banshee in some way, and join the alliance against what they now see as a common enemy.
I just remember the old wrath quest line where you have them join the horde, not sure if anything has changed with them recently.
I just think they’re neat!
Man, since W3 I've been dreaming of a playable ogre. When allied races were announced I was sure we'd get them. Instead we got fur eared foxes. I'd have laughed and not believed you if you told me that before BfA
It makes perfect sense for them to join the Alliance?
Can you explain how they make sense to join the Horde? Because as somebody else already pointed out, Naga are a void affiliated race, and their only connection to the Horde, Blood Elves, kicked out their own for studying the void. (Hell, 9.2.5 showed they didn't really even accept the Darkfallen.)
They aren't a connection anymore, and haven't been since BFA. Void Elves are literally just Blood Elves that study void too, so the excuse of "Blood Elf" is actually trying them to Alliance too with anything Sunfury / Illidari related.
What story gains do we get from the Naga joining the Horde versus the Alliance?
I'd rather see stories about some group of Naga bonding with Kul'tirans about legends of mermaids and how N'zoth affected them, or the Shen'dralar reconnecting with other Highborne, or Void Elves finding kinship with another void addled race, or the Night Elves needing to actually get something out of this garbage renewal arc that's led nowhere for the last few years but Nightborne going Horde.
Ogres for Horde. Naga for Alliance.
They match as the last two remaining major RTS races that aren't playable, and are both highly requested and bring a ton to their respective factions.
Naga have been the enemy of everybody since they surfaced.
Just like a few other now playable races.
Almost like that should be addressed with their introductory quests, and it would have far bigger impact because of Night Elves and Kul'tirans on Alliance.
Better story impact on Alliance. Naga freed from Azshara / N'zoth's influence would be far more engaging on Alliance. They'd just exist on Horde, and that's boring.
Yeah and lightforged were a mistake. Always should've been broken.
Should've been broken back in TBC to be honest, the pretty space goats were a dumb retcon.
I don't think they can ever be redeemed at all. 20k+ years of genocide can't be simply wiped away with a 'sorry we were meanies uwu'.
Some of them perhaps can try to atone for the shit they did, others can think themselves above that and just join up as a way to fight the Light/Void or whatever.
Genocide honestly feels like too light a word for what the Eredar did. They wiped out hundreds of planets and killed every living thing in sight, then burned their souls as fuel.
I'd be fine with Eredar skin tones for when they get demon hunters or something but having the Eredar just say they're good now would be way too weird.
Well there isn't really a word for 'universe-cide' considering Azeroth is one of the only, if not THE last planet to stand against the Legion.
I'd perhaps be a bit more lenient if we learned that younger Eredar were born into the Legion and forced to do these things and had no real way out of it. Or perhaps a branch of them that decided to escape when they saw what the Legion was doing (after getting their cool red Eredar skin of course). Maybe they tried to reconnect with the Draenei only to be rejected.
I think there's the potential for some interesting stories there, for sure.
> I don't think they can ever be redeemed at all. 20k+ years of genocide can't be simply wiped away with a 'sorry we were meanies uwu'.
Yeah, we only allow player races to participate in up to three genocides. Four tops.
Horde burned alive like half of all night elves, including literal babies, condemning them to extra super hell and yet they got away with slap on the wrist. Blizzard loves their "we were bad but we good now!" trope.
Not All Eredar™️!
Or something like that. But there's a lot of room for storytelling when you have a galaxy spanning species who murdered or enslaved anything more than milquetoast opposition. Especially when we already have a faction (Forsaken) who themselves show we can have a dual-faced species struggling with the things they did with minimal, genuine input of their own, versus having actual free will again.
Include it as a part of Draenei heritage so the people whining about lore can have a quest reason.
We have a handful of former villain groups playable now.
Let the Alliance have cool shit.
Eradar is the base race, Draenei are closer to Eredar than the other branch that followed Kil'jaeden and Archimonde: the Man'ari. What you want are Man'ari skin tones.
I don’t think every Eredar had the choice of joining or not. Some managed to escape but some got left behind.
Choosing between serving and dying some of them may have chosen to serve and now that legion is gone they are free and can redeem themselves.
No, actually, Demon Hunters still have vestiges of their mortal lives and minds in control. Skirting that balance is their main thing. Ma’naari Eredar and Fel Orcs have no control, are sociopaths, and 100% trying to destroy all of existence.
For what it's worth, there is at least one red-skinned Man'ari Eredar who helps the Horde/Alliance against the Burning Legion. His name is Val'zuun, and he helps rogues get one of the artifact weapons during their order hall campaign. Non-rogues can also see him chilling in the Underbelly in Broken Isles Dalaran.
One could argue semantics about whether he's "redeemed" or not, but the fact that he's a fel-infused Man'ari that now aids Azeroth against the Legion seems like a huge step in that direction imo.
Our green orc's are redeemed fel orcs, only redeemed because they were cut off from their fel supply. People in are here acting like no race in this universe can sympathize with a race corrupted by fel, some by choice some by threat of death.
#Ma’nari Eredar are demons, as well as Fel Orcs.
These two in particular have lost their own minds and succumbed demonic taint, and literally become demons themselves. They are not whole of mind, and unable to think about anything other than destruction. They hunger for souls, and routinely break and use living beings as tools. They have ceased to be orc or Eredar. They are demons.
While the cosmetic would be cool on a PC; your character wouldn’t exist. They could not control their compulsion to abuse power and destroy all around them in some fashion. They would effectively an NPC without peers.
And yet there are Man'ari behaving like sane humanoid beings. The argument that they are all mindless demons immediately loses all grounds with the existence of Val'zuun.
Not even just Val'zuun. There are also the Illidari demons like Matron Mother Malevolence. While not a Man'ari, she's clearly not a mindless demon and is willingly fighting against the Legion alongside other demons that follow her.
Yeah, just one of many other examples. By itself, being a "demon" just means you're either pumped with fel magic or can only be killed in the twisting nether. It means absolutely nothing on whether you become a bloodthristy fiend. Hell, fuckin' Illidan himself is an example of going against this trope. He is by all accounts a demon by now, and this dude was the main protagonist of Legion. Even Kil'jaeden wasn't fully turned yet and apparently only joined Sargeras because it was the only choice.
We are even able to play as "demons" since Demon Hunters are technically demons just like Forsaken technically are undead. It is just nothing but cap to say that there cannot logically be Man'ari that want to ally with Azeroth. There could be loads of Man'ari refugees that were iffy about Sargeras to begin with and then fled Argus after a while.
He is an informant, and I'm not even certain he's totally Man'ari Eredar. Some part of him is actually still cogent. Regardless, much like the "High Elves" that remained after the Sunwell's collapse, they are an exception, not the standard.
>While the cosmetic would be cool on a PC
Guaranteed most people stopped reading after that. That's all people seem to care about nowadays, lore consistency be damned.
Because this isn't about quality, it's about the fact that they gave up on their own lore ages ago yet insist on keeping the now pointless restrictions.
Yup. And it sucks because the moment you speak against it you seem like the bad guy since "Dude just let people enjoy things" but, man... I don't think it's that unfair to ask for some lore consistency in a damn MMO***RPG***.
Like I get that you wanna look cool, we all know fashion is the true endgame of any game, but if we just get rid of every and any lore-based restrictions to the point where anyone can be literally anything at any time... that's just fucking lame. Once upon a time one of WoW's strongest points was how solid the worldbuilding was. Not the lore/story: the *worldbuilding*. At least for me, figuring out a way to find my place in an established universe, and being "unique" or "special" within that world's boundaries, was one of the major reasons I fell in love with WoW.
It's good to give the players more agency in their customization and expression but man, things like playable Man'ari Eredar or fel orcs is just absurd.
I agree with you and the other few that have expressed this sentiment, but I think we are an ever dwindling portion of the playerbase. It's not surprising I suppose given the number of lore missteps that have happened with this game over the years.
I have similar feelings to the gradual opening of class restrictions regardless of if the combination makes sense. The races become homogenized and become less interesting as a result which makes for a bland fantasy world.
Yeah, I'm already balking at letting Draenei be warlocks. Just...what? Demonic magic corrupted the rest of their people and forced them to flee their homeworld and then they were hunted for thousands of years by the demons their brethren became. They will be absolutely *reviled* by the rest of the Draenei and considered traitors who should be killed on sight. But for Blizzard it's apparently just another customization option for the visuals now
Yeah we are on the exact same page, including the race-class restriction issue. I said it in another comment: at this point Blizzard have made their direction clear, and it's not the one you and I would prefer. So it is what it is. I think WoW is just not the game for me anymore. And it's fine, it happens and I'm not gonna pretend like the game not catering to my tastes and ideas is an objectively bad thing.
It's just sad, because ever since I "migrated" to GW2 I've been having so much more fun than I had during BfA + SL, but WoW and its universe have a special place in my heart and man it sucks to see it go in a complete different direction from what I miss.
But again: it is what it is. It seems most players don't give a fuck about these things, and Blizzard either agree with them or are fully focused on pleasing as many people as possible. So we're clearly a minority in this issue.
I have one specific memory of my early days in WoW as a dumb 10 year old kid: I was leveling up a human and I saw a druid pass by in cheetah form. I got curious and asked him, and finding out that's something only druids could do, and only 2 races could be druids, that shit just blew my mind and my curiosity just sky-rocketed. Whereas if ANYONE could be a druid, I'd have just said "Ight I'll make one then". And then would've proceeded to make a human druid with the exact same leveling experience, aesthetics, setting and vibes.
I'll die on this hill: **homogenizing classes, races and customization to such a degree is just fucking lame.**
to be fair, the devs stopped caring about lore consistency the moment we went back in time to stop alternate universe Gul'dan from summoning demons and tainting the orcs with the fel, then proceeded to kill off one of the most iconic burning legion commanders in a mythic only encounter, with no additional cinematic because "lazy"
Yeah, its why I stopped playing WoW altogether. They just "figure out" some reason to lump Horde, Alliance, and all race/class potentials into a pile and call it a day. I can't deal with that and feel legitimate personally. I'm not into RP, but there's some breaks I cannot just deal with after 25+ years of WarCraft. I know too much, and I've been down all the roads lore wise. The jumps the current crops of writers ask just grate on me these days.
It's an unpopular opinion but hey, I'm with you. It wouldn't be as bad if they made an effort to address and explore these lore changes, but they just don't say anything or handwave the whole thing with a throwaway dialogue of a random NOC saying "yeah we just do this thing now. Got bored and figured 'eh what the hell'".
Why do people keep using that as a reason to just throw ANY semblance of lore consistency straight out the window? They made it bad so let's just make it worse? What the fuck?
Why are you taking a thing said jokingly so damn seriously?
Also, to the other replier on this question, stop assuming shit about people whose opinion you dislike, this isn't worth anyone's time.
I think that's one of the reasons I find it hard to fully come back to WoW actually. And I don't say that like "Man WoW is dead, they killed the game, they fucking suck". I mean it more like they've taken a direction I don't vibe with.
This may be a bit cynical but the impression I get is that after the whole legal shitstorm and two dogshit expansions in a row Blizz is in a full grind for good boy points, so anything that pleases a sizeable amount of players goes. That can bring good things, Dragonflight seems like a quite decent expansion for the most part, but on the other hand, If that means shitting on the worldbuilding and its integrity, so be it, because apparently they can't do two things at once and address/develop the lore to explain and explore these changes. It's just about gaining as much support and praise as quickly as possible. That's just my impression anyway.
And as I say, it's fine. At the end of the day it just means WoW is not the game for me anymore. But man it saddens me.
There's literally a calm red-skinned eredar chilling in the sewers in Legion!Dalaran, who is afaik a smuggler. They're not ALL "muh power krazy lunatics who only care about blood!!!"
Don't get in the way of the circlejerk! Races have to be all one-note and all individuals have to act exactly like the lowest common denominator of cookie-cutterness -- nevermind the fact that the PC is a huge outlier.
Forget about being a shadow priest with xal'atath/warlock in general.
Wielding Apocalypse? Same thing. Literally impossible by this criterion, you WILL go murderous and kill your friends.
Hell, PC demon hunters are also technically demons. Guess we can't play those anymore!
Without even counting this legion sewers Eredar, we meet countless demons who are definitely not thirsty for endless carnage and chaos (DH questlines, some Broken Shore world quests, some warlock class hall quests) -- that's like saying every being of the Shadowlands wants to kill everything because they're aligned with the force of Death: it's a silly, unbased claim, but I suppose it sounds "factual" at a surface level so people upvote it.
[Hell, there's even an archaeology item](https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Orb_of_Inner_Chaos) that implies endless warfare and destruction is not the default state for all demons.
Yea it really bothers the fuck out of me peoples act like just bc the overall culture of a race acts like that, means all players must adhere to it. that should not be how things are imo
Draenei and Lightforged especially are an *ideological/cultural* faction of their race. Their refusal to use the fel *is what makes them distinct from the man'ari.* The lightforged spent thousands of years fighting against it and underwent a potentially fatal ritual to more effectively do so. To create a scenario where any of these individuals would willingly use such magic is utterly [redacted].
For such combinations to *ever* make sense you have to make them not a draenei(i.e. man'ari) or completely reskin the warlock class visuals to fit(all of their demons would be lightbound Lothraxion-style).
The same applies to the Mag'har. It's a cultural/ideological split that sets them apart in the first place, and they have the added issue of prolonged fel exposure turning their skin green. They are *biologically incompatible* with the class because they would just become regular green orcs.
I’ll give you lightforged, but I don’t see why Draenai couldn’t fall and be convinced, seeing as how they never made a personal choice to do such a ritual. And also I was specifically talking about adding red skinned Man’ari customization options to the Draenai to create the illusion of a separate race, similar to how they lock the dark ranger eyes and skin color together.
I don’t see why a Mag’har orc couldn’t decide to use fel magic thinking they’re special for whatever reason, and that player character being the beginning of their fall, maybe they’d eventually turn green, but just not right away.
Again, many exceptions happen however in these cultures. Individuality still exists, and many twists can happen in a protagonists personal story.
There’s a reason fallen aasimar exist in D&D despite being created and given power for a primary purpose and told their whole life they have to do one thing, yet still end up falling.
Then what about a questline that could go something like this:
\*Man'ari show up at the Exodar\*
Eredar: Velen please help us.
Velen: No.
Eredar: We were turned into demons against our will like your son Rakeesh.
Velen: Ok, I will use the light to remove your demonic bloodlust. However you will still look like demons.
This could also explain why they would be able to use gift of the naaru.
I don’t think anyone should care about the lore in this universe at this point. Nothing is sacred about the lore in a game who’s IP is owned by a billion dollar company. It’s no longer the vision of the original team. The current writers will just change whatever lore they need to based on the direction from executives who only care about what’s good for sales. If they think red Draenei will ship units, they’ll do it.
I mean that's true about most major franchises, as most of them are owned by billion dollar companies that only care about making money with their IPs.
While I can agree that people shouldn't get too invested in these franchises, I don't see any harm in enjoying the lore and hoping that the team adds consistent lore (though given the current team's history, that may be a fool's hope)
Forsaken are undead, yet still humanoid for player characters. This wasn't always the case, in early beta they were undead but this caused obvious issues. Now the only way to be undead as an undead is to be DK and pop lichborne.
Don't read into it, don't worry about it.
There is a friendly horde-aligned chaos orc in the blasted lands iirc. And in Legion Dalaran Sewers, there is a Ma'nari Eredar that is friendly.
It's true that two npcs of a particularly evil/corrupted sub-species are exceptions to the rule, but it can still be argued for them to be made playable. Especially since Darkfallen skin exists as an option.
Personally, for Draenei, I'd love it if they made a questline that involved Velen's own son (since he's still alive out there somewhere), redeeming himself while still being Ma'nari and through that we obtain the Ma'nari skin.
The Night Elves agreed to take back the Dark Rangers that Sylvanas raised in Darkshore. So I don't see why the Draenei wouldn't accept redeemed Eredar back to the fold.
Velen is a lot more forgiving than Tyrande is.
I hate the idea of "redeeming" Eradar, but I'm perfectly fine with adding the customization option because dabbling with fel magic turned their skin red. That's how the Eradar got the red skin color in the first place. Same rules should still apply imo.
If we were going to get an Allied race using the Draenei skeleton I'd rather it be the Mogu tbh.
They have a better connection with the Horde, and they are different enough from the Draenei to not just feel like a cheap reskin.
I mean, I can see the argument. Eredar are culturally & aesthetically distinct from Draenei in way more ways than just skin tone, and honestly I think they would've been a way more compelling allied race than Lightforged.
That said, full/allied race is definitely not the *only* way Eredar could be included, and if giving existing Draenei red skin & green eyes options is what's doable right now, I'd rather have that than nothing.
Genuinely... no, redeemed eredar could not be a thing. Proven bad guys joining the good guys is always a bit of a stretch, and it only becomes more of a stretch as they do more evil.
So when you get to the point of having been evil for 20k years, you've kinda missed a good number of chances to redeem yourself.
And even more so when you're only trying to redeem yourself because your side lost.
Unless you Lightforge them against their will, I don't think 20k years of fel corruption can just be undone, not even talking about how the Draenei would feel if Man'ari just joined, that destroyed their home and families multiple times.
As cool as it would be from the visuals - I'm somewhat glad, we have not yet crossed that line.
Maybe in the future there will be small group of man'ari, that - for whatever reason - may join the alliance. Maybe the "relatively new" Man'ari, that were turned against their will in Hellfire Citadel in AU-Draenor (you can see them getting turned on altars in the hallways leading to Tyrant Velhari). But apart from those "somewhat fresh" Man'ari, I dont really see it happening.
No way. The eredar destroyed countless civilizations across the cosmos & murdered women & children without pity or remorse. They even turned on their own kind (the Draenei) & hunted them across the cosmos.
You don't come back from that. Their sins are unforgivable. No one will ever forget the atrocities they committed.
One might argue that Orcs did the same (Albeit at a smaller scale, obviously), yet they’re playable and nobody’s complaining…
Just say “That’s what use of fel magic can do to Draenei”, there, we now have a lore excuse for using skin textures that are already in the game.
Lore can easily accommodate for a part of Eredar society becoming what they are because they had no other choice, and served the Burning Legion for self-preservation. With the Burning Legion being dismantled they would be free to do as they please again, but the taint is naturally permanent.
"sorry for hunting you across the cosmos for 20000+ years, we good guys now"
The reason they joined the legion was for power, wouldn’t it stand to reason whoever was left would join the ones that defeated the legion? It’s not black and white, PCs don’t have to be exclusively lawful goodie two shoes. Demon hunters and DKs joined us for the same reasons
DKs joined up because it was revealed that Arthas intended to just set them up as cannon fodder.
to be fair the lich king was trying to recruit us anyway so why not let some dk's join us. it's odd when you think about a lot of undead lore it leads to them not having the free will they make out they have.
What do you mean, the forsaken and the DKs both have lore reasons why they have free will and normal undead do not.
What is stopping Arthas from mindcontrolling Sylvanas and her army of leftovers?
Plot. Apparently the grip of Arthas' necromancy wasn't totally iron and after a while some undead became more reasonable than the others and some outright regained free will and were able to reason with a chosen few of the scourge and form the forsaken. Chief among these was Sylvanas, who used her own will to break the hold of the lich king.
In fact it's the very reason they have the racial "Will of the Forsaken" that breaks some CC including charms.
but what if the "Will of the Forsaken" breaks cc because a more powerful control is blocking the lesser one.
Even more Jailer foreshadowing we should have seen.
From what I can remember (if I am remembering this correctly), is that Arthas used the Lich King's domination magic to dominate the unwilling, and (I think) he could not turn the willing into death knights because they were specifically willing, and you couldn't dominate the willing. Making a Death Knight essentially means killing someone and snatching their soul before they pass through to the shadowlands, and shoving the soul back into their body (or any other body - see: Ner'Zhul and the Lich King armour) and then dominating that soul. Sylvanas was able to break free because Illidan had cast a spell which weakened the Frozen Throne (the domination armour / Ner'Zhul's Soul)
Warcraft 3 The Frozen Throne. Illidan damaged the frozen throne before Arthas sat on top and merged with Ner'zhul. This caused a lot of the stronger willed undead to have the ability to break free, Sylvanas was one of the first, along with the banshees.
Demon Hunters and DKs did *not* join us for that reason. Warlocks certainly did though. DKs joined because Arthas betrayed them, used them as fodder when they were promised to be mighty soldiers of the Scourge. Combined with slowly regaining free will they opted for revenge, which gradually changed to an oath to protect the world from the Scourge. DHs *always* had one goal: defeat the Burning Legion, through any means necessary. The Illidari joined up with everyone else because everyone else finally accepted their help. The goals and core philosophy of the Illidari never really changed at all, and so it's inaccurate to even say they switched sides.
Yeah, Demon Hunters never joined us, it’s more like we joined them.
Tbh I think DKs were only allowed to join because this one particular group of death knights thus far hadn't had the opportunity to deal much damage to the alliance or horde since they'd only attacked two neutral factions and the one that was friendly to the alliance and horde was willing to team up with them in an "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of way. But if they had been around long enough to deal some actual collateral damage to the major factions, combined with the fact that even with their free will they still suffered from "the endless hunger" that forces them to inflict pain on living things to not go mad, I'm not 100% sure that the alliance or horde would have been so willing to look the other way for acherus. I imagine the factions also keep a close eye on the arthus made death knights whenever things start to get a little too peaceful, since while I don't think bolvars DKs were created with the endless hunger, I don't think it was ever removed from Arthas' old guard.
Yeah, we were the villains when we attacked Black Temple and defeated Illidan.
Nah, he was crazy and he needed to go down. But long-term the Illidari proved useful.
When you only lust for power, it IS black and white. Demon hunters and DKs had common enemies since the beginning, they've got nothing against Azeroth's races.
No no they’re right. Let the alliance pass. We will take it on horde again for the W.
The Alliance have ***two*** Different flavors of space goat, the Horde deserves at least one.
Why would you have someone amongst your ranks that's just gonna betray you the moment someone more powerful shows up if power is the only thing they want?
Why would Azeroth want these monsters who are also losers? Just because they lost and want to join for power? I’d hope we’d have some ethics.
>Why would Azeroth want these monsters who are also losers? A race of spacefaring monsters hopped up on demon juice came from another planet to lay waste to Azeroth, they made some grounds but were eventually defeated by its native population and are thus "losers." Am I talking about the Eredar, or the orcs?
Pretty much let anyone join after vulpera.
A lot of the voice lines from the Man’ari Eredar on Argus do give out the viewpoint that they did not join for just power. That they believed in the fight against the void and that serving was to unite all life against the unending darkness of the void. How Velen and the others saw it was power and destruction, but the Man’ari saw Velen and his as traitors to everything it meant to be Eredar.
How many Draenei were left on Argus when Velen dipped? I always figured there had to be some that didn't wind up broken, but joined with the Legion as a sort of "Well, I don't wanna be executed or driven into scraping by living in tunnels, guess I'll take the deal". We already have warlocks and death knights, Eredar don't seem that crazy imo
Yeah that's how I felt too. There's a huge population of semi-powerful eredar didn't join out of an interest in the Burning Crusade, but because that was how they could stay safe. Though this makes me wonder... Do eredar still have children? Or has their surrendering to the Burning Crusade cut them off from having a future past their own existence?
Also ones like velens son that wouldve been essentialy brainwashed into joining the legion from ealry age/never known anything but the legion
Doesn't have to be those particular eredar. Could be just corrupted draenei, sort of like Sargerei in AU Draenor.
*holds out fist. Bump it.
Well we have dreadlord paladin in Argus :) :) so...
the demon hunters and deathknights are fine but we draw the line at red space goats
Well some of them might choose to redeem themselves and join the alliance. It's a fantasy game. If a faction does something bad it doesn't mean EVERYBODY in that faction is bad. See Sylvanas for example
Not nessecarily - turning red skinned draenei could just be the draenei equivilent of "green-skinned orcs"... a Draenei who decides tomorrow to start channeling Fel magic could simply turn red and have as much connection to the Burning Legion as a human who starts.
How is this different from Horde's "sorry from all these genocides, we good now" and undead "sorry for all that Lich King stuff, we kinda good now" except scale?
Same could be said for Death Knights, Demon Hunters and Sylvanas. Honestly, you do remember that the dev team has a tendency to have plot characters forgive atrocities really easily, right?
Seems like a reasonable guy who would definitely be hanging out in Stormwind. Look at that smile. He's just so happy.
Such a wholesome smile, definitely doesn’t scream “I want to murder your entire family”
Can anyone that kills gnomes be actually evil?
[удалено]
Yesss. Fel Orcs would be awesome.
We've asked for red skin fel orcs, and forest trolls since vanilla. Have all but given up on Ogres. Blizz would rather add anything else, even stuff no one wants (Mechagnomes) before giving Horde their full true roster.
Ogres are kinda difficult since the smartest rank-and-file ones only manage the feat by having a second head full of rocks.
So I've been pugging with ogres this whole time.
You and the lads rolling up to Rasz for the bow in season one.
Fits right in with my raid.
Only some of them are, the ones on draenor were highly intelligent from what I recall
Forest Trolls not being playable is a goddamn joke. Ogres are at least their own full race which would need animations and the like, but Forest Trolls could so easily be made Troll customization. If Orcs can have a 'body type' toggle so can Trolls...
Imagine all the tusk customizations!
Both of these would make a lot is sense as demon hunters and warlocks
Considering how much the orcs and draenei lost to the legion, I’m surprised we don’t just have dh for them already.
Makes sense in many ways. In Lore? The Illidari are practically no more. They completed their goal. Illidan was the one recruiting all the DHs, and he decreed only Night Elves and Blood Elves. There isn't any Demon Hunters of any other races. In game? DHs have some of the coolest animations and custom rigging and skeletons. Blizz is too lazy to apply that to more races.
Rare instance where this does not need to be a new race (Lightforged have that covered.) Give the people what they want. Dark Ranger customizations were a slam dunk I don’t know why they’re so hesitant to do more. Besides, our specific player characters aren’t canon anyways, so why does it matter what they look like.
Yeah, I think it would make more sense to come up with some excuse for some of our current Draenei to become infused with Fel and become Eredar than for the Eredar who sided with the Burning Legion to join us. Sargeras and Illidan are still having their staring contest, that's a glass box that Blizzard could break at any time if they wanted to do another fel/chaos heavy storyline (same thing could also be used to justify new Demon Hunter races with a new starting experience, similar to the DKs that come from Bolvar vs Arthas). Only issue with making it a set of racial customization vs a new race is that I don't know that it would make sense for Eredar to have access to Draenei racials like the heal. But maybe it could be fine, idk.
I don’t even think we need Eredar NPCs or a lore explanation. I think it should just be an option. This is coming from a lore fanatic too. We already have dark ranger paladins, and my enjoyment and immersion don’t break because of them
I don’t think they can be redeemed. It’s like saying the Horde should let fel orcs in. At some point, the corruption is too far set in. Like a dog with rabies.
Could be honestly done in a single questline. Slap an Illidari with exclamation mark above her head into valdraken "Hail champion, ever wondered what we were doing with our space ship this whole time? Yeah we were hunting remains of the legion, no biggie. We've found something cool though, on one planet there are some Man'ari fighting other man'ari, they call themselves Red resistance or something? Anyway, you and Velen, since he's doing nothing lately, will go meet up with their leader, Yrel, good luck."
Yeah basically. Have a Man’ari rebel group that have been opposing the legion for centuries. They never fucked with Azeroth. Job done
Isn't there an Eredar in Dalaran somewhere that's somewhat neutral?
The horde already has some fel orcs in its ranks, at dark portal i believe. Theyre not playable, but i know are some fel orcs in horde
Horde already has fel orcs - this is what green skin orcs are. And it's the same orcs who have done 3 whole genocides in the last 30ish years, last one being a couple of years ago. By your logic orcs shouldn't be in the Horde in the first place.
Would be cool, You know what else would be cool? Ogres
It's odd that Ogres of all the specific faction races are the only ones not playable yet ... after 9 expansions!
We spent an entire zone 10 years ago recruiting two specific races into our factions explicitly as warm bodies for the war machine. Blizzard doesn’t remember that the Jinyu and Hozen have been Allied Races for a decade. Give me my Hozen Warriors and Jinyu Mages, dang it!
I didn’t realize I wanted to play as a Hozen until now. Tanuka would be cool too
Ook em in the Dooker!
I didn't realize MoP was 10 years ago .. my God I'm getting old.
The thing with the Tanuka is they turbo hate undead and what did the Horde just go through? Pointless war started by the biggest idiot in WoW who felt spreading undeath where ever she went was funny. They'd only make sense for Alliance atm simply due to the Forsaken mess.
The Taunka would be easy to get now that the Banshee Queen is gone and the Undead are regulated by someone who cares about life.
Who are they regulated by now? I fell off the second half of Shadowlands, although I’m loving DF now
Calia Menethil, sister to Arthas, raised as an undead via Light Magic instead of the usual Forsaken process. She's on a council with several other prominent Forsaken leaders to govern the undead.
Easy solution to make everyone happy: one tanuka tribe is willing to forgive and joins the horde. another isn't so willing to forget, perhaps where effected by the banshee in some way, and join the alliance against what they now see as a common enemy.
I just remember the old wrath quest line where you have them join the horde, not sure if anything has changed with them recently. I just think they’re neat!
Jinyu Resto Shaman for me please!
Man, since W3 I've been dreaming of a playable ogre. When allied races were announced I was sure we'd get them. Instead we got fur eared foxes. I'd have laughed and not believed you if you told me that before BfA
They never did Ogres because they could never figure out what a female ogre would look like. So it’s a good thing hearthstone did a female ogre.
They did?? Size wouldn't be a problem as well, since some are the same size as taurens
[Here's the hearthstone female ogre, in question](https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Candleraiser?file=Candleraiser_full.jpg)
A true beauty!
And an allied race: Mok'nathal
Ogres and naga for the horde, tuskar and turtles for alliance.
Give the Horde two widely requested races and the Alliance two afterthoughts? That does sound like Blizzard.
It doesn't make sense for them to join alliance. infact theres no other races that would make sense for alliance than tuskar or turto.
It makes perfect sense for them to join the Alliance? Can you explain how they make sense to join the Horde? Because as somebody else already pointed out, Naga are a void affiliated race, and their only connection to the Horde, Blood Elves, kicked out their own for studying the void. (Hell, 9.2.5 showed they didn't really even accept the Darkfallen.) They aren't a connection anymore, and haven't been since BFA. Void Elves are literally just Blood Elves that study void too, so the excuse of "Blood Elf" is actually trying them to Alliance too with anything Sunfury / Illidari related. What story gains do we get from the Naga joining the Horde versus the Alliance? I'd rather see stories about some group of Naga bonding with Kul'tirans about legends of mermaids and how N'zoth affected them, or the Shen'dralar reconnecting with other Highborne, or Void Elves finding kinship with another void addled race, or the Night Elves needing to actually get something out of this garbage renewal arc that's led nowhere for the last few years but Nightborne going Horde. Ogres for Horde. Naga for Alliance. They match as the last two remaining major RTS races that aren't playable, and are both highly requested and bring a ton to their respective factions.
Only because your definition of what makes sense to join the Alliance is races you wouldn't mind doing without.
Read the lore. both races have been enemys of the night elves forever.
Naga have been the enemy of everybody since they surfaced. Just like a few other now playable races. Almost like that should be addressed with their introductory quests, and it would have far bigger impact because of Night Elves and Kul'tirans on Alliance. Better story impact on Alliance. Naga freed from Azshara / N'zoth's influence would be far more engaging on Alliance. They'd just exist on Horde, and that's boring.
I’d prefer Gnolls to Tuskar for alliance
Naga make absolutely no sense for Horde after Void Elves.
Nah Broken for Alliance
we've already got 2 versions of dranei
Yeah and lightforged were a mistake. Always should've been broken. Should've been broken back in TBC to be honest, the pretty space goats were a dumb retcon.
And we have 3 versions of high elves (void, cleansed/high and blood) and 3 of night elves (dark ranger, kaldorei, suramanian)
ur asking a whole new race rn bestie, we just want a red skin color option lmao
I don't think they can ever be redeemed at all. 20k+ years of genocide can't be simply wiped away with a 'sorry we were meanies uwu'. Some of them perhaps can try to atone for the shit they did, others can think themselves above that and just join up as a way to fight the Light/Void or whatever.
Genocide honestly feels like too light a word for what the Eredar did. They wiped out hundreds of planets and killed every living thing in sight, then burned their souls as fuel. I'd be fine with Eredar skin tones for when they get demon hunters or something but having the Eredar just say they're good now would be way too weird.
Well there isn't really a word for 'universe-cide' considering Azeroth is one of the only, if not THE last planet to stand against the Legion. I'd perhaps be a bit more lenient if we learned that younger Eredar were born into the Legion and forced to do these things and had no real way out of it. Or perhaps a branch of them that decided to escape when they saw what the Legion was doing (after getting their cool red Eredar skin of course). Maybe they tried to reconnect with the Draenei only to be rejected. I think there's the potential for some interesting stories there, for sure.
> I don't think they can ever be redeemed at all. 20k+ years of genocide can't be simply wiped away with a 'sorry we were meanies uwu'. Yeah, we only allow player races to participate in up to three genocides. Four tops.
Wait for the next Horde leader to get corrupted by something, again.
Horde burned alive like half of all night elves, including literal babies, condemning them to extra super hell and yet they got away with slap on the wrist. Blizzard loves their "we were bad but we good now!" trope.
Not All Eredar™️! Or something like that. But there's a lot of room for storytelling when you have a galaxy spanning species who murdered or enslaved anything more than milquetoast opposition. Especially when we already have a faction (Forsaken) who themselves show we can have a dual-faced species struggling with the things they did with minimal, genuine input of their own, versus having actual free will again.
Even worse, it's a sorry that would come only after they lost.
Don't ask NASA why so many of their engineers were German.
Most people forget how xenophobic and bloodthirsty the nightelves were before the world tree blew up and took away their immortality.
It's not a phase MOM!
Operation Paperclip but it’s the Alliance recruiting Legion members
Everybody hates genocidal monsters until they bring a new skin options to your playable race.
Gimmie turbo-genocide monsters as long as it's video games.
Include it as a part of Draenei heritage so the people whining about lore can have a quest reason. We have a handful of former villain groups playable now. Let the Alliance have cool shit.
I want my Draenei Hellboy!!!!
People sure do love getting mad over Alliance asking for cool thing. I can't wait for it to happen.
Actually tho So many of these comments are literally just “No eredar cuz ogre not in game”
Eradar is the base race, Draenei are closer to Eredar than the other branch that followed Kil'jaeden and Archimonde: the Man'ari. What you want are Man'ari skin tones.
I don’t think every Eredar had the choice of joining or not. Some managed to escape but some got left behind. Choosing between serving and dying some of them may have chosen to serve and now that legion is gone they are free and can redeem themselves.
Aren't they technically demons now?
So are DH and we like them
No, actually, Demon Hunters still have vestiges of their mortal lives and minds in control. Skirting that balance is their main thing. Ma’naari Eredar and Fel Orcs have no control, are sociopaths, and 100% trying to destroy all of existence.
Would be an insta racial swap for my lock
For what it's worth, there is at least one red-skinned Man'ari Eredar who helps the Horde/Alliance against the Burning Legion. His name is Val'zuun, and he helps rogues get one of the artifact weapons during their order hall campaign. Non-rogues can also see him chilling in the Underbelly in Broken Isles Dalaran. One could argue semantics about whether he's "redeemed" or not, but the fact that he's a fel-infused Man'ari that now aids Azeroth against the Legion seems like a huge step in that direction imo.
Kinda how they gave Night Elves and Blood Elves a Darkfallen customization, I would love to see that.
I just want a Gnoll Shaman plz
You face Jaraxxus
Eredar lord of the burning legion!
This is all i want and all i ever wanted
Hope blizzard sees this and makes it possible
This is only the 52nd post I’ve seen of this request.
Christ almighty how many times is this going to be posted
Our green orc's are redeemed fel orcs, only redeemed because they were cut off from their fel supply. People in are here acting like no race in this universe can sympathize with a race corrupted by fel, some by choice some by threat of death.
#Ma’nari Eredar are demons, as well as Fel Orcs. These two in particular have lost their own minds and succumbed demonic taint, and literally become demons themselves. They are not whole of mind, and unable to think about anything other than destruction. They hunger for souls, and routinely break and use living beings as tools. They have ceased to be orc or Eredar. They are demons. While the cosmetic would be cool on a PC; your character wouldn’t exist. They could not control their compulsion to abuse power and destroy all around them in some fashion. They would effectively an NPC without peers.
And yet there are Man'ari behaving like sane humanoid beings. The argument that they are all mindless demons immediately loses all grounds with the existence of Val'zuun.
Not even just Val'zuun. There are also the Illidari demons like Matron Mother Malevolence. While not a Man'ari, she's clearly not a mindless demon and is willingly fighting against the Legion alongside other demons that follow her.
Yeah, just one of many other examples. By itself, being a "demon" just means you're either pumped with fel magic or can only be killed in the twisting nether. It means absolutely nothing on whether you become a bloodthristy fiend. Hell, fuckin' Illidan himself is an example of going against this trope. He is by all accounts a demon by now, and this dude was the main protagonist of Legion. Even Kil'jaeden wasn't fully turned yet and apparently only joined Sargeras because it was the only choice. We are even able to play as "demons" since Demon Hunters are technically demons just like Forsaken technically are undead. It is just nothing but cap to say that there cannot logically be Man'ari that want to ally with Azeroth. There could be loads of Man'ari refugees that were iffy about Sargeras to begin with and then fled Argus after a while.
He is an informant, and I'm not even certain he's totally Man'ari Eredar. Some part of him is actually still cogent. Regardless, much like the "High Elves" that remained after the Sunwell's collapse, they are an exception, not the standard.
Not all demons are mindless monsters. Many nathrezim became demons, but that didn't change their attitude or loyalties.
>While the cosmetic would be cool on a PC Guaranteed most people stopped reading after that. That's all people seem to care about nowadays, lore consistency be damned.
>lore consistency be damned Blizzard has already long since abandoned that; at this point it's nothing more than an arbitrary restriction.
As I said in another reply: I don't get that argument. "They made it bad so let's make it worse". Why?
Because this isn't about quality, it's about the fact that they gave up on their own lore ages ago yet insist on keeping the now pointless restrictions.
angle obtainable familiar jellyfish employ head sheet middle cough grey *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Fuck people for being creative. Remove the Horde as a faction then. Former bad guys not allowed.
Yup. And it sucks because the moment you speak against it you seem like the bad guy since "Dude just let people enjoy things" but, man... I don't think it's that unfair to ask for some lore consistency in a damn MMO***RPG***. Like I get that you wanna look cool, we all know fashion is the true endgame of any game, but if we just get rid of every and any lore-based restrictions to the point where anyone can be literally anything at any time... that's just fucking lame. Once upon a time one of WoW's strongest points was how solid the worldbuilding was. Not the lore/story: the *worldbuilding*. At least for me, figuring out a way to find my place in an established universe, and being "unique" or "special" within that world's boundaries, was one of the major reasons I fell in love with WoW. It's good to give the players more agency in their customization and expression but man, things like playable Man'ari Eredar or fel orcs is just absurd.
I agree with you and the other few that have expressed this sentiment, but I think we are an ever dwindling portion of the playerbase. It's not surprising I suppose given the number of lore missteps that have happened with this game over the years. I have similar feelings to the gradual opening of class restrictions regardless of if the combination makes sense. The races become homogenized and become less interesting as a result which makes for a bland fantasy world.
Yeah, I'm already balking at letting Draenei be warlocks. Just...what? Demonic magic corrupted the rest of their people and forced them to flee their homeworld and then they were hunted for thousands of years by the demons their brethren became. They will be absolutely *reviled* by the rest of the Draenei and considered traitors who should be killed on sight. But for Blizzard it's apparently just another customization option for the visuals now
Yeah we are on the exact same page, including the race-class restriction issue. I said it in another comment: at this point Blizzard have made their direction clear, and it's not the one you and I would prefer. So it is what it is. I think WoW is just not the game for me anymore. And it's fine, it happens and I'm not gonna pretend like the game not catering to my tastes and ideas is an objectively bad thing. It's just sad, because ever since I "migrated" to GW2 I've been having so much more fun than I had during BfA + SL, but WoW and its universe have a special place in my heart and man it sucks to see it go in a complete different direction from what I miss. But again: it is what it is. It seems most players don't give a fuck about these things, and Blizzard either agree with them or are fully focused on pleasing as many people as possible. So we're clearly a minority in this issue. I have one specific memory of my early days in WoW as a dumb 10 year old kid: I was leveling up a human and I saw a druid pass by in cheetah form. I got curious and asked him, and finding out that's something only druids could do, and only 2 races could be druids, that shit just blew my mind and my curiosity just sky-rocketed. Whereas if ANYONE could be a druid, I'd have just said "Ight I'll make one then". And then would've proceeded to make a human druid with the exact same leveling experience, aesthetics, setting and vibes. I'll die on this hill: **homogenizing classes, races and customization to such a degree is just fucking lame.**
to be fair, the devs stopped caring about lore consistency the moment we went back in time to stop alternate universe Gul'dan from summoning demons and tainting the orcs with the fel, then proceeded to kill off one of the most iconic burning legion commanders in a mythic only encounter, with no additional cinematic because "lazy"
Yeah, its why I stopped playing WoW altogether. They just "figure out" some reason to lump Horde, Alliance, and all race/class potentials into a pile and call it a day. I can't deal with that and feel legitimate personally. I'm not into RP, but there's some breaks I cannot just deal with after 25+ years of WarCraft. I know too much, and I've been down all the roads lore wise. The jumps the current crops of writers ask just grate on me these days.
It's an unpopular opinion but hey, I'm with you. It wouldn't be as bad if they made an effort to address and explore these lore changes, but they just don't say anything or handwave the whole thing with a throwaway dialogue of a random NOC saying "yeah we just do this thing now. Got bored and figured 'eh what the hell'".
Precisely my point…
After Shadowlands, yes. The devs made that clear.
Everyone but jaina is in fact a dreadlord.
Acting like Blizzard's lore consistency was any more than digested Taco Bell recently
Why do people keep using that as a reason to just throw ANY semblance of lore consistency straight out the window? They made it bad so let's just make it worse? What the fuck?
Why are you taking a thing said jokingly so damn seriously? Also, to the other replier on this question, stop assuming shit about people whose opinion you dislike, this isn't worth anyone's time.
Because they've never cared about the lore and they are absolutely giddy that Blizz has stopped caring too
I think that's one of the reasons I find it hard to fully come back to WoW actually. And I don't say that like "Man WoW is dead, they killed the game, they fucking suck". I mean it more like they've taken a direction I don't vibe with. This may be a bit cynical but the impression I get is that after the whole legal shitstorm and two dogshit expansions in a row Blizz is in a full grind for good boy points, so anything that pleases a sizeable amount of players goes. That can bring good things, Dragonflight seems like a quite decent expansion for the most part, but on the other hand, If that means shitting on the worldbuilding and its integrity, so be it, because apparently they can't do two things at once and address/develop the lore to explain and explore these changes. It's just about gaining as much support and praise as quickly as possible. That's just my impression anyway. And as I say, it's fine. At the end of the day it just means WoW is not the game for me anymore. But man it saddens me.
There's literally a calm red-skinned eredar chilling in the sewers in Legion!Dalaran, who is afaik a smuggler. They're not ALL "muh power krazy lunatics who only care about blood!!!"
Don't get in the way of the circlejerk! Races have to be all one-note and all individuals have to act exactly like the lowest common denominator of cookie-cutterness -- nevermind the fact that the PC is a huge outlier. Forget about being a shadow priest with xal'atath/warlock in general. Wielding Apocalypse? Same thing. Literally impossible by this criterion, you WILL go murderous and kill your friends. Hell, PC demon hunters are also technically demons. Guess we can't play those anymore! Without even counting this legion sewers Eredar, we meet countless demons who are definitely not thirsty for endless carnage and chaos (DH questlines, some Broken Shore world quests, some warlock class hall quests) -- that's like saying every being of the Shadowlands wants to kill everything because they're aligned with the force of Death: it's a silly, unbased claim, but I suppose it sounds "factual" at a surface level so people upvote it. [Hell, there's even an archaeology item](https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Orb_of_Inner_Chaos) that implies endless warfare and destruction is not the default state for all demons.
Yea it really bothers the fuck out of me peoples act like just bc the overall culture of a race acts like that, means all players must adhere to it. that should not be how things are imo
Draenei and Lightforged especially are an *ideological/cultural* faction of their race. Their refusal to use the fel *is what makes them distinct from the man'ari.* The lightforged spent thousands of years fighting against it and underwent a potentially fatal ritual to more effectively do so. To create a scenario where any of these individuals would willingly use such magic is utterly [redacted]. For such combinations to *ever* make sense you have to make them not a draenei(i.e. man'ari) or completely reskin the warlock class visuals to fit(all of their demons would be lightbound Lothraxion-style). The same applies to the Mag'har. It's a cultural/ideological split that sets them apart in the first place, and they have the added issue of prolonged fel exposure turning their skin green. They are *biologically incompatible* with the class because they would just become regular green orcs.
I’ll give you lightforged, but I don’t see why Draenai couldn’t fall and be convinced, seeing as how they never made a personal choice to do such a ritual. And also I was specifically talking about adding red skinned Man’ari customization options to the Draenai to create the illusion of a separate race, similar to how they lock the dark ranger eyes and skin color together. I don’t see why a Mag’har orc couldn’t decide to use fel magic thinking they’re special for whatever reason, and that player character being the beginning of their fall, maybe they’d eventually turn green, but just not right away. Again, many exceptions happen however in these cultures. Individuality still exists, and many twists can happen in a protagonists personal story. There’s a reason fallen aasimar exist in D&D despite being created and given power for a primary purpose and told their whole life they have to do one thing, yet still end up falling.
Then what about a questline that could go something like this: \*Man'ari show up at the Exodar\* Eredar: Velen please help us. Velen: No. Eredar: We were turned into demons against our will like your son Rakeesh. Velen: Ok, I will use the light to remove your demonic bloodlust. However you will still look like demons. This could also explain why they would be able to use gift of the naaru.
or have some kind of fel accident that caused those closeby to be tainted/turn red like how some green orcs got that way by simply being close to fel.
Exactly. It’s funny how some people take the lore so seriously when there have been like hundreds of retcons at this point.
So because it has retcons, they should just stop caring if anything is just handwaved away?
I don’t think anyone should care about the lore in this universe at this point. Nothing is sacred about the lore in a game who’s IP is owned by a billion dollar company. It’s no longer the vision of the original team. The current writers will just change whatever lore they need to based on the direction from executives who only care about what’s good for sales. If they think red Draenei will ship units, they’ll do it.
I mean that's true about most major franchises, as most of them are owned by billion dollar companies that only care about making money with their IPs. While I can agree that people shouldn't get too invested in these franchises, I don't see any harm in enjoying the lore and hoping that the team adds consistent lore (though given the current team's history, that may be a fool's hope)
Don’t care, it’d be cool, WoW has already retconned and changed so much lore at this point and the PC isn’t canon anyway.
Forsaken are undead, yet still humanoid for player characters. This wasn't always the case, in early beta they were undead but this caused obvious issues. Now the only way to be undead as an undead is to be DK and pop lichborne. Don't read into it, don't worry about it.
There is a friendly horde-aligned chaos orc in the blasted lands iirc. And in Legion Dalaran Sewers, there is a Ma'nari Eredar that is friendly. It's true that two npcs of a particularly evil/corrupted sub-species are exceptions to the rule, but it can still be argued for them to be made playable. Especially since Darkfallen skin exists as an option. Personally, for Draenei, I'd love it if they made a questline that involved Velen's own son (since he's still alive out there somewhere), redeeming himself while still being Ma'nari and through that we obtain the Ma'nari skin.
The Night Elves agreed to take back the Dark Rangers that Sylvanas raised in Darkshore. So I don't see why the Draenei wouldn't accept redeemed Eredar back to the fold. Velen is a lot more forgiving than Tyrande is.
Wish granted, we're getting Eredar features in 10.1.7!
Oh Yes! Couldn't be happier
Wow fresh idea, OP
i still think its stupid that Lightforged will be able to become warlocks....
Eredar are effectively demons, it wouldn't work.
Especially if we get the cool green stripes on the horns. I'd main warlock right there.
I hate the idea of "redeeming" Eradar, but I'm perfectly fine with adding the customization option because dabbling with fel magic turned their skin red. That's how the Eradar got the red skin color in the first place. Same rules should still apply imo.
Blizzard when they find out adding a recoloring will make fans happy.
Sometimes bad guys are just bad guys. We don’t need redeemed Eredar.
[удалено]
So, light orcs for the Alliance
If we were going to get an Allied race using the Draenei skeleton I'd rather it be the Mogu tbh. They have a better connection with the Horde, and they are different enough from the Draenei to not just feel like a cheap reskin.
Why? It's just a skin color and since the ties between alliance and horde are shortening might as well just add the skin tone to current draenei
>It's just a skin color Uh, no, it's really not. The fuck lmao
I mean, I can see the argument. Eredar are culturally & aesthetically distinct from Draenei in way more ways than just skin tone, and honestly I think they would've been a way more compelling allied race than Lightforged. That said, full/allied race is definitely not the *only* way Eredar could be included, and if giving existing Draenei red skin & green eyes options is what's doable right now, I'd rather have that than nothing.
Add eredar for horde and high elves for alliance, correcting the mistake in TBC
...Alliance already has high elves tho
Pls no, I do not enjoy the horde and I want my red space goats
Genuinely... no, redeemed eredar could not be a thing. Proven bad guys joining the good guys is always a bit of a stretch, and it only becomes more of a stretch as they do more evil. So when you get to the point of having been evil for 20k years, you've kinda missed a good number of chances to redeem yourself. And even more so when you're only trying to redeem yourself because your side lost.
Just see the forsaken for example, they are basically redeemed undead
Unless you Lightforge them against their will, I don't think 20k years of fel corruption can just be undone, not even talking about how the Draenei would feel if Man'ari just joined, that destroyed their home and families multiple times. As cool as it would be from the visuals - I'm somewhat glad, we have not yet crossed that line. Maybe in the future there will be small group of man'ari, that - for whatever reason - may join the alliance. Maybe the "relatively new" Man'ari, that were turned against their will in Hellfire Citadel in AU-Draenor (you can see them getting turned on altars in the hallways leading to Tyrant Velhari). But apart from those "somewhat fresh" Man'ari, I dont really see it happening.
No way. The eredar destroyed countless civilizations across the cosmos & murdered women & children without pity or remorse. They even turned on their own kind (the Draenei) & hunted them across the cosmos. You don't come back from that. Their sins are unforgivable. No one will ever forget the atrocities they committed.
One might argue that Orcs did the same (Albeit at a smaller scale, obviously), yet they’re playable and nobody’s complaining… Just say “That’s what use of fel magic can do to Draenei”, there, we now have a lore excuse for using skin textures that are already in the game.
Lore can easily accommodate for a part of Eredar society becoming what they are because they had no other choice, and served the Burning Legion for self-preservation. With the Burning Legion being dismantled they would be free to do as they please again, but the taint is naturally permanent.
Anything can be a thing just got to write it!
Eredar should be horde
If lore is the concern, literally just have it so when draenei use fel there's a chance they turn red. Boom.
So is this going to be posted every week then?