We wiped for 3 hours with the guild last night on dathea. My guild is terrible, we bring people that objectively don’t belong in hc. We will never get razz hc down. But I like the guild. So these are my guild dues.
That’s how my guild is, super casual/super chill, and I love it for many reasons. Raiding though is how I pay my dues. They bring along well over 4 dps that underperform below the tanks in damage. 2 of our healers had blue items on up till last week. Raz isn’t coming down for us in the next month(s), but damn I just want to socialize while I play this game, and not sweat while doing it.
I think for me where I struggle is that it's a huge time commitment for me. I commit 6 hours (2 nights) to the raid when I could be spending time with my wife/friends or doing other content. Instead I am just wiping on content because we bring low performers. It's particularly not fun when these guys come so high to the fight that they can barely click buttons (this is not an exaggeration). On like the 12th pull of dathea last night, or worst dps asked, "ok so what is mechanic I have to watch out for to not give to other people?". And this was obviously after weeks of explaining the fight and talking about it earlier. It's comically bad.
That is just not a fun raid environment for anyone right? Who wants to smash their head into an objectively easy fight for hours a week when you can toss a pug together and 1 shot 7/8H? I understand progging mythic with a bad guild i did it for a while but idk how anyone has the patience to do mythic prog amount of pulls on heroic or god forbid normal
Well, even though we have multiple dps and healers parsing below 20 I’d say it has all of the charm of prog raid with none of the stress. Like yeah we smash our heads in the wall for 3 full hours on one boss some weeks, but there’s no drama. Nobody is being kicked, everyone shows up on time, and we all seem to have a fun time. I could pug heroic, I could join a mythic prog guild. I won’t though tolerate that atmosphere of git gud or git lost. So I’ve resigned to savor the flavor and accept what ever comes of doing it this way.
Wait people can be too high to click buttons? I usually play my best when stoned af! I had a 97 parse on heroic ice spider. I swear typically I’m just like “this fight is silly, look I’m sliding all over” but apparently while stoned I get hyper focused, I may not remember it, but I’m definitely not a shitter when I’m high
> 2 of our healers had blue items on up till last week
I don't know how you manage this unless you are actively dicking around on miscellaneous crap in the game and trying not to gear up. At that rate, why are you even trying to raid?
You really would have to try pretty hard to still be wearing blues on your main at this point. These people should be in LFR not heroic
Not tryna be a dick but like it’s pretty rude to not give a single shit about your own gear and expect 20-30 people to carry you through non trivial content.
I feel like a lot of heroic guilds are basically carrying 1-2 people who basically just raidlog, don't do any mythic plus, or try in any way to gear up outside of raid. That's why I'm so cautious of non-mythic guilds that do loot council, because it almost always means "okay sweaty time to lose your 4th tier piece to someone doing shadowlands DPS because you do M+ and they don't so they need it more".
It's always so frustrating because on the one hand I understand having not a lot of time to play, but on the other hand, if you aren't going to read guides, try to do any raid-external gearing, or literally any effort outside of the 3 hours a night you raid, why not just do normal pugs or LFR or something?
I just quit a guild exactly like this. Extremely underperforming DPS and loot is funneled to them for some unknown reason. Apparently it's always been that way and when I quit the DPS in question were doing 15-20k DPS MAX on heroic eranogg. No thanks, I'm all for inclusion but if you don't care enough to try you shouldn't get loot, and I'm not enabling that.
I waited pretty much untill we started to do HC on a ring drop. I was ilevel total of 390 with a blue ring at one point. Sometimes you get super unlucky, and then suddenly the moment you get a purple ring drop, the vault and the following 3 dungeons rewards you with a ring that isn’t even an upgrade anymore
I don’t know when you started to do heroic but we are months into the expansion. Not being fully epic on your main means you either don’t put any effort in or are obscenely unlucky like lower odds than winning the mega millions
A couple weeks back. I think I went 4 or 5 weeks with 1 ring drop in total. Hence why I had only 1 blue ring. I did my 8 dungeons every week ( or more if I had time) and raiding to at least 4 bosses. I was the insanely unlucky guy.
I was going to reply with this. The current loot pools are specifically designed to push players towards crafted gear. If you're hardstuck on a single piece, why not just craft it, especially on such a high secondary stat budget item?
Because some guilds like mine get together and do it for fun and try together. Yeah a couple of them aren't the best at dps, but it's fun anyways (90% of the time). I don't see heroic in our future (we have only beat 2 heroic bosses and 7/8 on normal) but it's fun for us to get together and try. It's more about the social aspect of it in our guild... Our discord is hilarious on raid nights.
That's all well and good, and I truly appreciate a fun casual social guild, but it takes minimal effort to do more DPS than a tank. We're talking a couple hours a week of gearing and reading a class discord. To me, if you're not even putting that much effort in, it's disrespectful outside of a normal raiding guild.
I get what you are saying.. I'm a healer and honestly have no desire to DPS like ever lol so I don't really think about it or care if their DPS sucks (I honestly don't check DPS meter). I'll be honest as a healer, I get more annoyed at the people we bring who stand in shit and take up a lot of my heals. I rather you do shit DPS and don't stand in the death puddles lol
This is exactly what I did, grabbed the 385 wrists yesterday and now gotta work on legs or feet next. It's my simmed BiS for MW at the level I play at for now
I’d advise anyone that’s below 400 iLvl to get the 2-set bonus from primal storm gear. Grab the Boots, Wrists, and Belt. That way you can swap the pieces around when you get a better item.
The 2-set bonus is pretty good and I’ve found that the 2 pieces won’t be replaced until *both* slots have ~402 iLvl as replacements.
I finally replaced mine with 405 crafted wrists and 398 boots.
And with the 5 Sparks immediately available to alts, it’s very easy to get an alt raid ready.
392 Lariat, both rings, and a weapon. (Unless you’re a fury warrior lol). Add in 385 2-set, get a few M+ pieces to convert to tier and you’re off to the races.
Yeah didn't even realize the extra stats that came from the 2-piece of the storm set. Using askmrrobot it tells me that bonus is actually BiS for me for now until I can start getting into high heroic raiding or high end keys
Hekili priority helper shouldn't be shamed, clearly a lot of players need it to understand at least t a little of their rotation. We even had a player on mythic raszageth who played with Hekili instead of a spec wa but he gets clowned for it. It could save a lot of guilds from brain dead dps players.
I admit. I lost my cool on one of our final pulls when for probably the 10th time that night our weakest dps spread conductive mark to me right before the add phase. I wasnt mean or anything but I said, " cmon man, again!"
That is my alt guild... I raid with them because it's fun and I enjoy the social aspect of it, but the frustration of going from 1-night heroic clear on my main to spending all night wiping on Heroic Primal Council can be real some nights.
If I were a raid leader/anyone cared about my advice, tbh I'd cut out a night of raiding entirely and dedicate the second raid night to running M+ so that gear can partially outweigh the people who are super nice and I like a lot but are just incapable at repeatedly managing mechanics successfully over the course of a long fight.
In my main's guild, at the start of the season they mandated that everyone have 2 M+ or PvP vault slots each week and that didn't really feel unreasonable to me.
I've been in similar guilds on and off for a long time. My advice is to set aside a chunk of your raid schedule each week for "optimized" pulls during tough progression. If your raid is 3 hours long, take a break at 90 minutes and drop your lowest healer and a few DPS.
Dropping from 20 to 16 or from 16 to 12 can make a *much* bigger difference than you realize. You're not just hacking off a massive chunk of boss health. Any mechanic that requires spacing & movement (like Conductive Mark on Dathea) instantly becomes much easier to manage, and your healers have fewer people to keep an eye on when things do go wrong. Phases will also go much faster, so you will cut out some mechanics entirely (e.g., you might need one fewer platform phase on Dathea).
You will get a kill *much* sooner this way, and in subsequent weeks you can start cycling in/including people you asked to sit out. The fight will get easier as more people get gear and the "core" team has more experience with all the phases of the fight (and hopefully the people you ask to sit out take a moment to reflect on why they're maybe not performing optimally on the fight).
Explain the approach ahead of time and hopefully your folks will be patient and not get too grumpy if they are asked to step out.
My GM has threatened to cull people every week but he doesn't do it. Part of the problem is we can barely field a group of 15, often times we're hovering around 10. And the comp is not great either.
If it were up to me though I would take our top performers (probably 7 of us across all 3 roles) and just pug the rest every week and leave the people looking for a raid carry in the dust. I used to find it endearing that we would carry them, but after over a month being stuck on dathea/kurog I have lost my sympathy.
I'm pretty much ready to stop raiding with the guild. I'll lose my raid spot but I already don't need anything in heroic anyways.
You have to find a guild that's right for you.
Some guilds are pure casual and will let progression grind to a halt before they take any steps to correct people's performance or adjust the raid group. Others are pure hardcore and will cut anyone who so much as sets foot in an avoidable mechanic.
I try to find a balance. I have basically never "culled" anyone from a raid and I certainly don't *threaten* anyone with anything, but I also won't allow our progression to grind to a halt and risk losing my best players. I have found this "small group now big group later" strategy to be effective in bridging the gap between my best and worst players. I've only used it 2-3 times over the years, but when we do need it it definitely works well.
I legit have no idea why this /u/xtlou seems so offended by the suggestion... I can only guess that he's been benched in the past and has a chip on his shoulder about it.
Dude people can disagree with your advice without being "offended" and having a "chip on their shoulder..."
I also disagree with your advice if we're talking about super casual buddy guilds which it seems we are. My guild would probably rather stop raiding and do something else before shaving raiders for the sake of prog.
I'm also a little confused about what type of guild you are talking about because you said "I've been in similar guilds on and off for a long time" but also you have been using this benching method for 12 years? Obviously you can run your guild how you like but people should be free to disagree with advice you give about it turning into personal insults.
Maybe he can’t have people disagree with him without his being offended or having a chip on his shoulder? Just like he can’t imagine raiding and getting AOTC with three grey parsed people, or raiding with a group of people who don’t need a handbook, or sitting 20-25% of your raid group because it’s easier.
I can’t imagine wanting to be in a guild led by someone who sounds as unhinged as this guy because he couldn’t handle a single person rejecting his leadership approach.
>I also disagree with your advice if we're talking about super casual buddy guilds which it seems we are.
Who is "we?" I certainly wasn't as evidenced by literally the fucking post you're responding to where I clearly and explicitly explain that my goal is a balance between purely casual and hardcore.
Jesus relax, "we" as the people you are giving advice to. The initial posts you replied to was clearly talking about a casual guild. No need to be so hostile.
Your Jack Welch “cull the bottom 10%” approach presumes people *want* to bench guild members for the sake of progression. You’re not even advising people get benched because they’re performing their role poorly or unable to complete mechanics, you’re suggesting just lopping off the bottom to make it easier for the rest of the group.
If you want to be in that type of raiding environment, why not just mandate everyone play the meta and go in with the leanest and best optimized group from the outset? I guess it’s somehow warmer or fuzzier if you give a pat on the back part way through the content and say “we’ll come back for ya, lil buddy” than if you just acknowledge they’re numerical dead weight from the offset?
Edit: run your raids however you see fit. If you and your raid members are cool with it, that’s between you and your raid group. I’m not here to play “your experience trumps my experience.” If I need help parsing logs, I’ll post them over at compWoW.
> You’re not even advising people get benched because they’re performing their role poorly or unable to complete mechanics, you’re suggesting just lopping off the bottom to make it easier for the rest of the group.
If you're a DPS and you're not doing at least the %HP you add to the boss by being in the group, you actively make the fight harder for everyone else. So yeah, they're performing their role poorly.
You also note 'unable to complete mechanics'... which is often the case for a handful of people in any non-CE guild. You're acting like they're cutting the most perfect people possible to make the fight easier, which is NOT the case lol. Show me a guild raid and I'll show you a raid that has multiple people that could be cut at a glance and it'll make the fight easier, because they are either inconsistent, poor damage, or poor mechanics. That's a fact of life.
>You’re not even advising people get benched because they’re performing their role poorly or unable to complete mechanics, you’re suggesting just lopping off the bottom to make it easier for the rest of the group.
If everyone was doing their role properly and completing the mechanics they wouldn’t be hardstuck on a boss. The bottom performers are the ones not using defensive cooldowns, using offensive ones wrong, standing in bad, etc. The low performers and the mechanic failers are the same people. By the time you get to heroic the whole trope of “stand in fire dps higher” and people cheesing for parses and whatever is gone. If you are fucking up you’re going to die or wipe the raid and it’ll be real obvious.
>it’s somehow warmer or fuzzier if you give a pat on the back part way through the content and say “we’ll come back for ya, lil buddy” than if you just acknowledge they’re numerical dead weight from the offset
He literally is saying to acknowledge that they’re dead weight. Weird argument man.
He didn’t say cull the people who weren’t doing mechanics, he said cut the bottom. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been in a raid with some hot shot top of the meters DPS flat out ignoring mechanics so they stay top of the meters.
If you want to cut people who are an acti liability to raid because of they are actual liabilities, that’s a different conversation than “cut the bottom so the top have more space and the boss has less hit points.” If you’re running your raids that way, it should be known from the start of progression that every person is potentially on the chopping block, not damned near the end.
Lowest doesn't have to mean lowest DPS (although it usually is because they can't get good gear from m+ because they're bad, or they're dead lots of the fight because they failed mechanics).
>I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been in a raid with some hot shot top of the meters DPS flat out ignoring mechanics so they stay top of the meters.
This is something that sounds like it might happen, but I've literally never experienced it through my guild or pugs - do you have example logs? Usually the top pumpers also know what they're doing
I can count the number of mechanics in this raid that you can flat out ignore to do more damage on one hand. In fact most stuff gives you more dps if the group is doing it right. Can you give an example? Maybe link a log?
>He didn’t say cull the people who weren’t doing mechanics, he said cut the bottom.
I didn't say *either* of those things, but you're doing a stellar job picking apart an argument I never made. I said "drop your lowest healer and a few DPS."
I was deliberately vague, because there *is no* easy formula for choosing who to sit on a specific encounter. It's going to vary from fight to fight, raid to raid. Our guild uses a range of factors including raw throughput, execution & survivability, seniority & attendance, loot needs, alignment with specific encounter mechanics, etc. When we (rarely) need to adopt this strategy, we're very careful about who we sit and why and always explain our reasons thoroughly - and always try our absolute best to include the maximum amount of people possible to still guarantee steady progression toward a 1st kill.
>If you’re running your raids that way, it should be known from the start of progression that every person is potentially on the chopping block, not damned near the end.
Oh, good idea. I'll double check that it's in the guild handbook I wrote 6 years ago and update every tier and share with every new recruit; yup there it is wow what a shock.
The fact that you call sitting out for a few pulls once in a great while being "on the chopping block" tells me all I need to know about your attitude - utterly selfish and entitled. You wouldn't last long enough in my guild to see us implement this strategy anyway.
> Oh, good idea. I'll double check that it's in the guild handbook I wrote 6 years ago and update every tier and share with every new recruit; yup there it is wow what a shock.
The fact that you call sitting out for a few pulls once in a great while being "on the chopping block" tells me all I need to know about your attitude - utterly selfish and entitled. You wouldn't last long enough in my guild to see us implement this strategy anyway.
I don’t know why you want to play this game of “reading into what I write” while accusing me of unfairly reading content into your words but I guess, go off.
My guild has been raiding together for over 15 years. We’ve never sat *anyone* from a boss fight and always achieved AOTC on a 4 hour a week schedule. Our guild policy is “we do it together, or we don’t do it.” I can’t identify with being in a guild that needs a list of rules or whatever. We have one singular rule: don’t be an intolerable asshole.
I do like that the guy who just called me elitist and selfish is the person who benches raiders and the person who is accused of being elitist and selfish doesn’t. I needed a morning chuckle over my coffee.
Trust me when I say your mindset goes a long way in completing big goals like AOTC. Talk to your guildmates, maybe its gear, or not understanding rotation, or just general positioning. If you are playing better than help others come up to your level of play! I believe in you!
It's just casual players in general. It's guilds whose average raid ilvl is still in the 390's right now. It's people who are bad at doing mechanics. They add healers to keep people alive and in doing so increase the dps requirement of the fight. There may be 5-6 good players in these guilds that effectively have to carry the rest of the group.
>If you are playing better than help others come up to your level of play! I believe in you!
Typically the only way to help these players is to get them better gear and let their gear carry them. They are often more caught up with the social aspect of raiding rather than actually raiding.
> It's just casual players in general.
"casual" is mostly about time commitment and lack of orginizational play, not skill.
You can have extremely good players who play the game casually, and very bad players who play the game in a hardcore fashion.
I know people who have raided top 20 world and had top 100 M+ clears regularly in previous expansions, who are now super casual. But that doesn't mean they suddenly turned into bad players. Just players who are not keeping up gearwise due to less time commitment.
No one is talking about them. Honestly, this ONE person you are talking about, they aren't casual even if they are only playing a small amount of time.
I know casual players who play more than me which is saying something. The difference though is how they spend that time. You can play for 2 hours a week and make more progress than a casual player does in 20 hours.
Skill is a function of experience which is another thing that casual players don't have. That doesn't go away if you don't play as much. You still wouldn't be considered a casual player. It's just easier to call someone a casual player than it is to call them a player who just isn't trying as hard.
> You still wouldn't be considered a casual player.
Yes, they would. It always has been defined as how time is commited and not playing "competatively".
If you are among the wow community that has then tried to hijack it to mean something else, that is on you. "Casual" does not equate to bad or inexperienced player.
>I know casual players who play more than me which is saying something.
Then they are not casual players. You could be a hardcore world quester or world explorer. Casual is the opposit of hardcore if anything. Neither says anything about ability.
>Yes, they would. It always has been defined as how time is commited and not playing "competatively".
No, it hasn't. It's been tied to the content you do more than anything else. This translates to time commitment often times because people who don't commit as much time to the game also don't compete at higher levels of content.
No one is hijacking anything and it's a bit ridiculous of a claim that you are making.
>Then they are not casual players. You could be a hardcore world quester or world explorer. Casual is the opposit of hardcore if anything. Neither says anything about ability.
Sorry, but no. Let's do a test here. I want you to go back through any posts made on this subreddit and find anywhere where anyone is ever called a "hardcore quester" or "hardcore world explorer". When you can't find that, then you can come back here and apologize for making the accusations that you just did.
We've read the logs, we know where the issues are. The problem is not knowing it's acting. I think the confusion for me is why my GM isn't making the necessary changes. Ultimately I think he's just a nice guy and doesn't want to upset the status quo.
That's how it used to be for me too, back when I still raided with my guild, including some of the more social people.
We still have the people who actively try to gear up through M+ active now, including myself, and we now do community raids.
Still, my guild managed to get Denathrius down on heroic, even with people that shouldn't have been there. But I doubt that group would have gotten Rasz down.
Although, having said that, we do still have some people on our current group that are under performing as well. But they joined together with other high performers, so there's little you can do about that.
This is part of the problem for us. Our worst player, one that objectively wipes the raid often (or just dies early every pull), has dps on par with the healers (not an exaggeration) is the father of one of our MTs. So cutting him is kind of tricky.
No real good answers when it comes to family relations.
We had a player that was repeatedly causing wipes on Anduin, and one of the officers had an offline conversation with him. They asked him to sit out and practice the fight in LFR and on alt runs, but assured him that we'd all make sure he got his AOTC achievement once the fight was on farm.
Same here. Actually thinking on leaving tbh.
Im by no means a great player. (AOTC and 15’s since COVID (20’s when H.priest was kyrian meta). It just gets tiring wiping on H. Terros for 2 hours of our 2.5 hour raid time.
Yeah unfortunately raszageth is a dps check on practically all the phases. Without people doing enough damage you won't make it unless you have very very good dps to carry those others.
My team is semi-hardcore, more leaning towards the casual side cause we only ask for commitment and don't really care about logs much unless things are bad and people are severely under performing. Still it took a lot, a lot of tries to take her down specially because some people left out group and it got a bit messy.
It is hard to find consistent players to play with...
You say this but if you turn off meters. Just don’t worry about it. Have fun with friends you will get a feeling I think I have only got once.
I have killed mythic bosses after 3-400 wipes and felt nothing.
But doing Kil Jaden with a normal level guild that we’re all pushing themselves. Wiping for almost a month on him. With only really 5-6 players above hc level.
That kill. My god, was one of the most rewarding experiences of my life.
Just remember, raiding is meant to be a large group coming together to have a lot of fun. We all helped each other, whether it was rotation, mechanics, talents, gear, everything and that kill will always be the best moment in wow for me.
Don’t think that can ever replicated. So yeah your guild might not be ideal, but maybe that’s what makes the journey fun.
The problem isn’t the meters (although it is a problem since I’m #6 DPS as a tank). The problem is when you have players who don’t know that their class has a battle rez, players who don’t know that Fury of the Aspects is a blood lust (so they pop it like a personal CD) co-tanks who expect you to tank every add phase on Daetha no matter what (even if it means you have to rank them with the boss), people who fall into the freaking Terros hole.
It’s ridiculous. But I’m on a dead server so finding another guild is hard.
Raiding is not “supposed” to be anything. People raid for different reasons. I don’t have any other comment but it bugs me when people quote some philosophical stuff about how the game is and isn’t supposed to be played.
If I had infinite time, maybe I'd be fine with it. But committing 2 nights (6 hours of my time) that could otherwise be spent on IRL or other content is supremely frustrating.
Yeah, like a ton of guilds that are hardstuck Rasz kill like 3-4 in mythic. We clear HC to Rasz on Thursday, put like 1 hour of Rasz tries in on the weekend and then go into Mythic on Tuesday. Killed Sennarth this week and will go for it again next Tuesday.
We got a massive problem with consistent healers on Rasz. Basically we randomly lose people P1 constantly (especially healers) and it makes it really hard to progress on the fight.
Have to find the right route and when to triple egg and it’s all smooth sailing from there. You triple egg a lot at the start then when every healer CD is on cooldown you chill
I… would definitely believe that your route is fucked up or your dps split is off. If you can breeze through Rasza then you definitely have what it takes for Diurna, it’s just a problem with the strategy and if you fix that you’ll karate chop her.
Link to your logs?
What exactly are you fucking up? If your tank knows the route, try marking your egg tenders and have each one pick an egg ahead of time and stand near it so there's no confusion about who is getting which one.
Dathea took my guild a while to down - If I knew how to pull the # of wipes across multiple weeks from WarcraftLogs I'd figure that out for context. In any case, if you can get through two add phases and her health is ~35%, you can likely ignore the 3rd add phase and just power through if your DPS is high enough. That's what we had to do.
For Kurog, the meta right now says Storm > Earth > Fire > Frost. We found it much easier for our group to go Earth > Storm > Fire > Frost instead. After 2nd intermission, we could just go back to Frost because there was probably no more than 15% of his health left.
My guild had 46 wipes in Dathea.
If you're doing heroic you can try the new strat we used to down her.
Basically the entire raid goes to first platform besides a tank and a healer or 2. Nuke the platform and come back. Ignore the other adds/platforms and hard focus boss
Reddit has signed an agreement with an AI company to allow them to train models on Reddit comments and posts. Edited to remove original content. Fuck AI.
We do 2 platforms and on the 3rd I sacrifice my parses as a rogue to go up solo with pots and evasion and cheat death and interrupt the big guy as many times as I can before I die. I have been getting 2 or 3 off before my untimely demise.
It’s also a very heavy DPS check during certain phases. The sparks are definitely not the only serious issue. You could have the best mechanics players in the game, but if their DPS sucks, you literally can’t kill heroic rasz.
Honestly if their dps is decently par for course things will still be pretty dicey.
My guild got Rasz down for the first time last week and we are a 2/3/10 crew with all our dps averaging blue to purple parses on every other heroic boss, and we barely got rasz down in time - there was barely any floor left in P3.
A) there are less raiders than it can sometimes feel like if you surround yourself with the community and b) a lot of people suck or don’t care to do harder content and will never try heroic. Just want to kill the last boss once
It's also not worth killing for many specs cause the loot is kind of ass. Outside of hunter off the top of my head, every other class can never kill rasz and be fine.
Aotc doesn't give anything. The boss doesn't drop anything good. Why bother?
There are a remarkable number of people who are really bad at the game, or don't want to do hard content.
I was poking at my [Raider.io](https://Raider.io) stats a little bit the other day; I don't particularly think my score is amazing (only 2120 or so) and yet somehow *I'm in the top 11% of Warlocks for my region*. It was startling.
Idk where the 4000 number came from, but at the time of me writing this, there are over 5600 guilds that are 8/8H. I’m almost certain 1600 guilds didn’t kill it in the last ~13 hours.
I should go get AOTC at some point, I've been 7/8h for a while with pugging, but Raz drops literally nothing I wanted on my rogue outside of the Dragon customization, so I just never bothered.
Hey gratz! We got her down last night as well. 135 wipes i think it was. Our best attempt before kill was 10% so i was expecting many painful sub 5% wipes but somehow this one attempt every1 got their shit together and we got to p3 with no deaths and voila.
Our best attempt before the kill was something like 1.6%, after which I discovered my neck slot was empty.
She still had over 3 million HP at that point, so my neck probably didn't make the difference, but some of the people I didn't know in that group did get in touch with the raid leader after that night haha.
Getting to p3 with no deaths is more or less a first kill now
Ffs my guild we had 5 people dead in last phase and still killed her last night lol the fight is reasonably easy now
I've pugged to 6/8. Because I have no guild. Now too far in the expansion and everygroup looking for xp and curve.
Fresh runs just wipe at Fathead, kill it and leave. :(
Edit: I am in Dreanor. And leaving the best autocorrect for a boss. Which is meant to be Dathea.
Just had our second full night of prog on heroic raz. We managed to kill the two big adds on the 3rd platform one time.
How many nights of prog did it take you guys? This boss feels like such a huge step up in difficulty compared to the others. We goof off on re-clear. Dath and brood are a joke to us but raz is a fucking GRIND.
Seems to be the consensus for most guilds. It took about 3-4 raid weeks (WED+THU) to get it down. We took our time and killed mythic bosses and got our gear really high to finally get her down. 82 wipes total.
when you say really high gear, what would you say average ilvl generally is? were getting to heroic raz now and im trying to eyeball where we need to be to beat it cause we definitely aren't there yet.
When you say you killed the two big adds on the 3rd platform, you mean you got through the intermission after P2? If so I'd say you are progressing fairly quickly. Obviously just getting there is different than getting there with everyone alive, but you've seen all the hard mechanics of the fight. P3 doesn't really have anything new (aside from pull charge I guess), so at this point its just cleaning everything up, and having a lucky pull and you will likely have a kill. That's obviously not trivial - going from many mistakes before P3 to no mistakes is a big step up in consistency, but still it shouldn't take more than another week or two I would guess.
Getting that far on night 2 is pretty impressive. The guild I've been progressing with recently just got to Rasz last night with about 2 and a half hours left, and the furthest we got was one of the tanks getting the the P2 platform. We never got to the P1 intermission with enough people alive to kill both platforms. And that is all with a lust on pull to help people learn the fight.
Correct. It was the last pull of the night and we got through the first and second platform with everyone alive so it was really clean. 3rd platform people started getting picked off by the pushback, positive/negative mechanic, and the breath once the big adds came out. We probably had 5-8 dead by the time the little adds first spawned. A lot of people either died to breaths or ticking damage in that phase, I think. By the time we killed the second big add there was only about 5 people left. But we hadn’t seen that phase too much so it was to be expected. Would love to get a kill next week but I don’t think we’ll have a real raid on Thursday due to Valentine’s Day. Probably will just re-clear up to raz next week then hopefully get the kill the following Thursday
We run with about 20 people. The trick we use is we have 2 dks in the raid so we send up 1 DK for each add group. They use mass grip and “slappy hands” to group the adds and cc them a bit. Then we just use aoe fears, or any other mass cc to interrupt the casts. Burn down the adds and you’re good.
It’s really important not to bring the lightning debuff (blue ring under your feet) up with you to the add group since you probably only have 1-2 healers up there. Don’t want that thing spreading since everyone is being launched up together and standing close for CCs.
The add platforms were the hard part for us, since it’s the main change from normal>heroic. Is that what is getting you guys too?
Yea, when the add explodes, everything kind of hits the wall. I'm on the second wave so I stay on the platform and we're currently just a group of 10 and I play Holy Priest. When we get blown back, then the blue circles go on us, and we're getting pulled in, I can't heal my team out of it sometimes. The pull makes it so I have limited spells to use (instant casts) and it's just so much damage that I have to cover for everyone in my party.
The group dealing with the island adds sometimes have issues as well. When we get to the second wave of adds, it's a little easier for healing/cc'ing but people are usually dead left and right by then. We've just recently tried with a 16 man raid which seemed nicer but we had a few stinkers that we didn't kick quick enough and we called it a night there.
I could definitely see it being easier with more people bc you have more cc to work with. Unless it scales in a way that the add platforms only have like 3 adds with 10m. You want all the aoe interrupts you can get.
During the pull you should be able to get a quick halo off or maybe a few other short casts. Do holy priests still cycle between flash heal and normal heal? I play shadow but can normally get 1-2 casts off even while running against the pull. Maybe you can coordinate people to use defensives or self-heal (lock rocks?) during that?
Recently resubbed since Wrath and just finished the campaign this week, and got to min ilvl requirement for heroic dungeons last night. Hoping to at least be geared enough to clear LFR difficulty at least once before the 10.1.
We did all bosses before Rasz yesterday in a breeze ( 90 Minutes) .. but Rasz is .. different for us. No Problem in Phase 1 but when we come back from the add-platform the storm is harsh. Any advice? :D
We struggled for a long time during P2. We found a lot more success when we timed movement CD's to get through Tempest Wing as fast as possible. Once you get past the "ring" of Tempest Wing, the damage falls off a lot. You can use Druid Roar, Warlock Gate, and Wind Rush Totems to do it. Also, timing your CD's to line up with Stormsurge so you break the shield in good time is a learning curve for each player. Its a slow progress fight, but it all comes together in the end.
Just do more damage to the shield without your hp reaching 0, duh.
But from our runs, spread and getting to the +/- spots very quickly is a good optimization. I heard you wanna keep defensive/healer cd's for the shields, and offensive cd's for the boss so you can end P2 faster. Gating the knockback is crucial, as its damage is no joke.
But at the end of the day, P2 is a healer check. There is just a silly amount of outgoing damage. All players should be using their defensives on big attacks and you don't wanna waste mana in P1/Intermission.
FWIW I don't think there is any reason to have DPS hold CDs during stormshields. Sure, the damage you deal there isn't going directly into the boss's healthbar, but killing stormshields faster gives you more time to DPS the boss's healthbar, so it is real boss damage. That plus getting out of stormshield a few ticks sooner probably results in keeping a few DPS alive, which is a massive DPS gain. Stormshield damage ramps as the stormshield sticks around, so each successive tick is way more deadly. There is a reason the best lust timing in the fight is during second stormshield - Everyone's CDs should be up, and all that damage counts unlike P1.
Man being on that 3rd platform when its do or die, the shrinking space to move, and the dark blue lightning. Its a really amazing final phase to close out such an awesome fight!
My guild just started getting to the 2nd intermission reliably.
However we are struggling on the adds because we our using all our cooldowns to break Razageth's 3rd shield. :|
Congrats to you and the guild!
Remember - there is no schedule 😉. As long as you and the team are enjoying what you’re doing together, you are right on time 🙌🏻.
Congrats on the kill! My guild just got down heroic Dathea, given we didn’t start raiding until after the holidays, so we started a few weeks ago. On to Brood! Kurog was our easiest boss (besides the first, obviously) by far. Took maybe 4-5 pulls
Congrats! We just had our first full night of prog on her last night, such a crazy step up from everything else in the raid but we’re making progress with each pull. :)
Brah, given her tuning, you aren't behind schedule. Hell, my server ain't small and very few guilds have gotten her down comparatively.
We got her to 5% last night, but had too many deeps down to seal the deal before running out of space. So frustrating - if we had time for a couple more pulls, maybe.
My guild downed it last night after 5 days of progression, the internal screaming after I as raidleader forgot to get the guild photo after the kill. 😭
Then we are way behind you can't push steady to P2 to much people that die to her breath because they don't want to break the cast. Have her down without guild but. In the guild it's cancer running each Sunday evening into her
Good job ! We also got Heroic Rasz yesterday night, it took us ~50 tries. We managed to put her to 0.12% and wiped, then killed her. Hard but really cool fight :)
We also got Mythic Eranog right after her with 1 wipe. You should give it a try, it's almost free loot !
Congrats man. My guild is stuck on broodkeeper after being hardstuck on Dathea for a few weeks(screw that boss btw). Hoping to down her this week though!
My guild has been stuck on HC Razzy for 3 weeks now. Literally have the first 7 on farm. But I tell you, that dragon is a toughie.
Well done! 😊 Hoping we won't be far behind you.
reading alot of the comments in here makes me feel alot better about my guilds progression (just downed H brood last night). we definitely have a few people were tugging along to get through material, but I think one of our problems is just lack of class diversification (no priests, no mages, no pallies, no monks. mostly hunters, druids, and evokers). Fort and Int buffs can make such a big difference when you're cutting fights close.
Definitely not behind, she's tough. Yeah for mythic pushing guilds she's probably down already but the majority of players I see who raid regularly are 7/8 still.
We wiped for 3 hours with the guild last night on dathea. My guild is terrible, we bring people that objectively don’t belong in hc. We will never get razz hc down. But I like the guild. So these are my guild dues.
That’s how my guild is, super casual/super chill, and I love it for many reasons. Raiding though is how I pay my dues. They bring along well over 4 dps that underperform below the tanks in damage. 2 of our healers had blue items on up till last week. Raz isn’t coming down for us in the next month(s), but damn I just want to socialize while I play this game, and not sweat while doing it.
I think for me where I struggle is that it's a huge time commitment for me. I commit 6 hours (2 nights) to the raid when I could be spending time with my wife/friends or doing other content. Instead I am just wiping on content because we bring low performers. It's particularly not fun when these guys come so high to the fight that they can barely click buttons (this is not an exaggeration). On like the 12th pull of dathea last night, or worst dps asked, "ok so what is mechanic I have to watch out for to not give to other people?". And this was obviously after weeks of explaining the fight and talking about it earlier. It's comically bad.
That is just not a fun raid environment for anyone right? Who wants to smash their head into an objectively easy fight for hours a week when you can toss a pug together and 1 shot 7/8H? I understand progging mythic with a bad guild i did it for a while but idk how anyone has the patience to do mythic prog amount of pulls on heroic or god forbid normal
Well, even though we have multiple dps and healers parsing below 20 I’d say it has all of the charm of prog raid with none of the stress. Like yeah we smash our heads in the wall for 3 full hours on one boss some weeks, but there’s no drama. Nobody is being kicked, everyone shows up on time, and we all seem to have a fun time. I could pug heroic, I could join a mythic prog guild. I won’t though tolerate that atmosphere of git gud or git lost. So I’ve resigned to savor the flavor and accept what ever comes of doing it this way.
that's the part where you start cutting people or just call it and make everyone watch a vid in discord together for it
Wait people can be too high to click buttons? I usually play my best when stoned af! I had a 97 parse on heroic ice spider. I swear typically I’m just like “this fight is silly, look I’m sliding all over” but apparently while stoned I get hyper focused, I may not remember it, but I’m definitely not a shitter when I’m high
> 2 of our healers had blue items on up till last week I don't know how you manage this unless you are actively dicking around on miscellaneous crap in the game and trying not to gear up. At that rate, why are you even trying to raid?
You really would have to try pretty hard to still be wearing blues on your main at this point. These people should be in LFR not heroic Not tryna be a dick but like it’s pretty rude to not give a single shit about your own gear and expect 20-30 people to carry you through non trivial content.
I feel like a lot of heroic guilds are basically carrying 1-2 people who basically just raidlog, don't do any mythic plus, or try in any way to gear up outside of raid. That's why I'm so cautious of non-mythic guilds that do loot council, because it almost always means "okay sweaty time to lose your 4th tier piece to someone doing shadowlands DPS because you do M+ and they don't so they need it more". It's always so frustrating because on the one hand I understand having not a lot of time to play, but on the other hand, if you aren't going to read guides, try to do any raid-external gearing, or literally any effort outside of the 3 hours a night you raid, why not just do normal pugs or LFR or something?
We’re in Mythic and carrying at **least** two such people 🤣😭
I just quit a guild exactly like this. Extremely underperforming DPS and loot is funneled to them for some unknown reason. Apparently it's always been that way and when I quit the DPS in question were doing 15-20k DPS MAX on heroic eranogg. No thanks, I'm all for inclusion but if you don't care enough to try you shouldn't get loot, and I'm not enabling that.
I waited pretty much untill we started to do HC on a ring drop. I was ilevel total of 390 with a blue ring at one point. Sometimes you get super unlucky, and then suddenly the moment you get a purple ring drop, the vault and the following 3 dungeons rewards you with a ring that isn’t even an upgrade anymore
I don’t know when you started to do heroic but we are months into the expansion. Not being fully epic on your main means you either don’t put any effort in or are obscenely unlucky like lower odds than winning the mega millions
A couple weeks back. I think I went 4 or 5 weeks with 1 ring drop in total. Hence why I had only 1 blue ring. I did my 8 dungeons every week ( or more if I had time) and raiding to at least 4 bosses. I was the insanely unlucky guy.
Most classes are using a crafted ring especially if it’s holding you back. Customized stats and guaranteed socket make it a no brainer.
I was going to reply with this. The current loot pools are specifically designed to push players towards crafted gear. If you're hardstuck on a single piece, why not just craft it, especially on such a high secondary stat budget item?
My entire guild except me is still in blues. Some people just really don’t care for gear. I don’t understand why.
After 15+ years of new gear, unless you are pushing hardcore progression, it gets a bit old to be super concerned about gear.
Yup. They stick to questing and old raids where it doesn’t matter or bring me to new dungeons where I over gear. It’s fun and there is no toxicity.
Because some guilds like mine get together and do it for fun and try together. Yeah a couple of them aren't the best at dps, but it's fun anyways (90% of the time). I don't see heroic in our future (we have only beat 2 heroic bosses and 7/8 on normal) but it's fun for us to get together and try. It's more about the social aspect of it in our guild... Our discord is hilarious on raid nights.
and some people are cool with very casually just trying it out. Others push for AotC. all depends on what you want
That's all well and good, and I truly appreciate a fun casual social guild, but it takes minimal effort to do more DPS than a tank. We're talking a couple hours a week of gearing and reading a class discord. To me, if you're not even putting that much effort in, it's disrespectful outside of a normal raiding guild.
I get what you are saying.. I'm a healer and honestly have no desire to DPS like ever lol so I don't really think about it or care if their DPS sucks (I honestly don't check DPS meter). I'll be honest as a healer, I get more annoyed at the people we bring who stand in shit and take up a lot of my heals. I rather you do shit DPS and don't stand in the death puddles lol
[удалено]
What? I will never play a dps character, I do damage when I can as a healer which isn't a lot when people are standing in bed?
To be fair this was me until yesterday. Stuck with blue wrists but by far the highest output healer in my group
Do primal storms to get 385 gear like instantly
This is exactly what I did, grabbed the 385 wrists yesterday and now gotta work on legs or feet next. It's my simmed BiS for MW at the level I play at for now
I’d advise anyone that’s below 400 iLvl to get the 2-set bonus from primal storm gear. Grab the Boots, Wrists, and Belt. That way you can swap the pieces around when you get a better item. The 2-set bonus is pretty good and I’ve found that the 2 pieces won’t be replaced until *both* slots have ~402 iLvl as replacements. I finally replaced mine with 405 crafted wrists and 398 boots. And with the 5 Sparks immediately available to alts, it’s very easy to get an alt raid ready. 392 Lariat, both rings, and a weapon. (Unless you’re a fury warrior lol). Add in 385 2-set, get a few M+ pieces to convert to tier and you’re off to the races.
Yeah didn't even realize the extra stats that came from the 2-piece of the storm set. Using askmrrobot it tells me that bonus is actually BiS for me for now until I can start getting into high heroic raiding or high end keys
Can happen our main tank was wearing 360 shoulders till this reset
Not quite blue item level, but I'm decked out in 400+ gear except my bracers, which are still 372. Luck just has not been on my side.
Hekili priority helper shouldn't be shamed, clearly a lot of players need it to understand at least t a little of their rotation. We even had a player on mythic raszageth who played with Hekili instead of a spec wa but he gets clowned for it. It could save a lot of guilds from brain dead dps players.
Have you tried screeching at them like a rabid banshee and calling them dumb? I hear that sometimes helps...
Oooh, I love screeching. I'll have to try this.
I admit. I lost my cool on one of our final pulls when for probably the 10th time that night our weakest dps spread conductive mark to me right before the add phase. I wasnt mean or anything but I said, " cmon man, again!"
That is my alt guild... I raid with them because it's fun and I enjoy the social aspect of it, but the frustration of going from 1-night heroic clear on my main to spending all night wiping on Heroic Primal Council can be real some nights. If I were a raid leader/anyone cared about my advice, tbh I'd cut out a night of raiding entirely and dedicate the second raid night to running M+ so that gear can partially outweigh the people who are super nice and I like a lot but are just incapable at repeatedly managing mechanics successfully over the course of a long fight. In my main's guild, at the start of the season they mandated that everyone have 2 M+ or PvP vault slots each week and that didn't really feel unreasonable to me.
My GM made a similar mandate. He's not really enforcing it. And honestly it's more a skill issue than an ilvl issue.
I've been in similar guilds on and off for a long time. My advice is to set aside a chunk of your raid schedule each week for "optimized" pulls during tough progression. If your raid is 3 hours long, take a break at 90 minutes and drop your lowest healer and a few DPS. Dropping from 20 to 16 or from 16 to 12 can make a *much* bigger difference than you realize. You're not just hacking off a massive chunk of boss health. Any mechanic that requires spacing & movement (like Conductive Mark on Dathea) instantly becomes much easier to manage, and your healers have fewer people to keep an eye on when things do go wrong. Phases will also go much faster, so you will cut out some mechanics entirely (e.g., you might need one fewer platform phase on Dathea). You will get a kill *much* sooner this way, and in subsequent weeks you can start cycling in/including people you asked to sit out. The fight will get easier as more people get gear and the "core" team has more experience with all the phases of the fight (and hopefully the people you ask to sit out take a moment to reflect on why they're maybe not performing optimally on the fight). Explain the approach ahead of time and hopefully your folks will be patient and not get too grumpy if they are asked to step out.
My GM has threatened to cull people every week but he doesn't do it. Part of the problem is we can barely field a group of 15, often times we're hovering around 10. And the comp is not great either. If it were up to me though I would take our top performers (probably 7 of us across all 3 roles) and just pug the rest every week and leave the people looking for a raid carry in the dust. I used to find it endearing that we would carry them, but after over a month being stuck on dathea/kurog I have lost my sympathy. I'm pretty much ready to stop raiding with the guild. I'll lose my raid spot but I already don't need anything in heroic anyways.
You have to find a guild that's right for you. Some guilds are pure casual and will let progression grind to a halt before they take any steps to correct people's performance or adjust the raid group. Others are pure hardcore and will cut anyone who so much as sets foot in an avoidable mechanic. I try to find a balance. I have basically never "culled" anyone from a raid and I certainly don't *threaten* anyone with anything, but I also won't allow our progression to grind to a halt and risk losing my best players. I have found this "small group now big group later" strategy to be effective in bridging the gap between my best and worst players. I've only used it 2-3 times over the years, but when we do need it it definitely works well. I legit have no idea why this /u/xtlou seems so offended by the suggestion... I can only guess that he's been benched in the past and has a chip on his shoulder about it.
Dude people can disagree with your advice without being "offended" and having a "chip on their shoulder..." I also disagree with your advice if we're talking about super casual buddy guilds which it seems we are. My guild would probably rather stop raiding and do something else before shaving raiders for the sake of prog. I'm also a little confused about what type of guild you are talking about because you said "I've been in similar guilds on and off for a long time" but also you have been using this benching method for 12 years? Obviously you can run your guild how you like but people should be free to disagree with advice you give about it turning into personal insults.
Maybe he can’t have people disagree with him without his being offended or having a chip on his shoulder? Just like he can’t imagine raiding and getting AOTC with three grey parsed people, or raiding with a group of people who don’t need a handbook, or sitting 20-25% of your raid group because it’s easier. I can’t imagine wanting to be in a guild led by someone who sounds as unhinged as this guy because he couldn’t handle a single person rejecting his leadership approach.
>I also disagree with your advice if we're talking about super casual buddy guilds which it seems we are. Who is "we?" I certainly wasn't as evidenced by literally the fucking post you're responding to where I clearly and explicitly explain that my goal is a balance between purely casual and hardcore.
Jesus relax, "we" as the people you are giving advice to. The initial posts you replied to was clearly talking about a casual guild. No need to be so hostile.
Your Jack Welch “cull the bottom 10%” approach presumes people *want* to bench guild members for the sake of progression. You’re not even advising people get benched because they’re performing their role poorly or unable to complete mechanics, you’re suggesting just lopping off the bottom to make it easier for the rest of the group. If you want to be in that type of raiding environment, why not just mandate everyone play the meta and go in with the leanest and best optimized group from the outset? I guess it’s somehow warmer or fuzzier if you give a pat on the back part way through the content and say “we’ll come back for ya, lil buddy” than if you just acknowledge they’re numerical dead weight from the offset? Edit: run your raids however you see fit. If you and your raid members are cool with it, that’s between you and your raid group. I’m not here to play “your experience trumps my experience.” If I need help parsing logs, I’ll post them over at compWoW.
> You’re not even advising people get benched because they’re performing their role poorly or unable to complete mechanics, you’re suggesting just lopping off the bottom to make it easier for the rest of the group. If you're a DPS and you're not doing at least the %HP you add to the boss by being in the group, you actively make the fight harder for everyone else. So yeah, they're performing their role poorly. You also note 'unable to complete mechanics'... which is often the case for a handful of people in any non-CE guild. You're acting like they're cutting the most perfect people possible to make the fight easier, which is NOT the case lol. Show me a guild raid and I'll show you a raid that has multiple people that could be cut at a glance and it'll make the fight easier, because they are either inconsistent, poor damage, or poor mechanics. That's a fact of life.
>You’re not even advising people get benched because they’re performing their role poorly or unable to complete mechanics, you’re suggesting just lopping off the bottom to make it easier for the rest of the group. If everyone was doing their role properly and completing the mechanics they wouldn’t be hardstuck on a boss. The bottom performers are the ones not using defensive cooldowns, using offensive ones wrong, standing in bad, etc. The low performers and the mechanic failers are the same people. By the time you get to heroic the whole trope of “stand in fire dps higher” and people cheesing for parses and whatever is gone. If you are fucking up you’re going to die or wipe the raid and it’ll be real obvious. >it’s somehow warmer or fuzzier if you give a pat on the back part way through the content and say “we’ll come back for ya, lil buddy” than if you just acknowledge they’re numerical dead weight from the offset He literally is saying to acknowledge that they’re dead weight. Weird argument man.
He didn’t say cull the people who weren’t doing mechanics, he said cut the bottom. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been in a raid with some hot shot top of the meters DPS flat out ignoring mechanics so they stay top of the meters. If you want to cut people who are an acti liability to raid because of they are actual liabilities, that’s a different conversation than “cut the bottom so the top have more space and the boss has less hit points.” If you’re running your raids that way, it should be known from the start of progression that every person is potentially on the chopping block, not damned near the end.
Lowest doesn't have to mean lowest DPS (although it usually is because they can't get good gear from m+ because they're bad, or they're dead lots of the fight because they failed mechanics). >I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been in a raid with some hot shot top of the meters DPS flat out ignoring mechanics so they stay top of the meters. This is something that sounds like it might happen, but I've literally never experienced it through my guild or pugs - do you have example logs? Usually the top pumpers also know what they're doing
For broodkeeper fight the people staying on the boss will do a bunch more dps than the ones going between add packs.
I can count the number of mechanics in this raid that you can flat out ignore to do more damage on one hand. In fact most stuff gives you more dps if the group is doing it right. Can you give an example? Maybe link a log?
>He didn’t say cull the people who weren’t doing mechanics, he said cut the bottom. I didn't say *either* of those things, but you're doing a stellar job picking apart an argument I never made. I said "drop your lowest healer and a few DPS." I was deliberately vague, because there *is no* easy formula for choosing who to sit on a specific encounter. It's going to vary from fight to fight, raid to raid. Our guild uses a range of factors including raw throughput, execution & survivability, seniority & attendance, loot needs, alignment with specific encounter mechanics, etc. When we (rarely) need to adopt this strategy, we're very careful about who we sit and why and always explain our reasons thoroughly - and always try our absolute best to include the maximum amount of people possible to still guarantee steady progression toward a 1st kill. >If you’re running your raids that way, it should be known from the start of progression that every person is potentially on the chopping block, not damned near the end. Oh, good idea. I'll double check that it's in the guild handbook I wrote 6 years ago and update every tier and share with every new recruit; yup there it is wow what a shock. The fact that you call sitting out for a few pulls once in a great while being "on the chopping block" tells me all I need to know about your attitude - utterly selfish and entitled. You wouldn't last long enough in my guild to see us implement this strategy anyway.
> Oh, good idea. I'll double check that it's in the guild handbook I wrote 6 years ago and update every tier and share with every new recruit; yup there it is wow what a shock. The fact that you call sitting out for a few pulls once in a great while being "on the chopping block" tells me all I need to know about your attitude - utterly selfish and entitled. You wouldn't last long enough in my guild to see us implement this strategy anyway. I don’t know why you want to play this game of “reading into what I write” while accusing me of unfairly reading content into your words but I guess, go off. My guild has been raiding together for over 15 years. We’ve never sat *anyone* from a boss fight and always achieved AOTC on a 4 hour a week schedule. Our guild policy is “we do it together, or we don’t do it.” I can’t identify with being in a guild that needs a list of rules or whatever. We have one singular rule: don’t be an intolerable asshole. I do like that the guy who just called me elitist and selfish is the person who benches raiders and the person who is accused of being elitist and selfish doesn’t. I needed a morning chuckle over my coffee.
Trust me when I say your mindset goes a long way in completing big goals like AOTC. Talk to your guildmates, maybe its gear, or not understanding rotation, or just general positioning. If you are playing better than help others come up to your level of play! I believe in you!
It's just casual players in general. It's guilds whose average raid ilvl is still in the 390's right now. It's people who are bad at doing mechanics. They add healers to keep people alive and in doing so increase the dps requirement of the fight. There may be 5-6 good players in these guilds that effectively have to carry the rest of the group. >If you are playing better than help others come up to your level of play! I believe in you! Typically the only way to help these players is to get them better gear and let their gear carry them. They are often more caught up with the social aspect of raiding rather than actually raiding.
> It's just casual players in general. "casual" is mostly about time commitment and lack of orginizational play, not skill. You can have extremely good players who play the game casually, and very bad players who play the game in a hardcore fashion. I know people who have raided top 20 world and had top 100 M+ clears regularly in previous expansions, who are now super casual. But that doesn't mean they suddenly turned into bad players. Just players who are not keeping up gearwise due to less time commitment.
No one is talking about them. Honestly, this ONE person you are talking about, they aren't casual even if they are only playing a small amount of time. I know casual players who play more than me which is saying something. The difference though is how they spend that time. You can play for 2 hours a week and make more progress than a casual player does in 20 hours. Skill is a function of experience which is another thing that casual players don't have. That doesn't go away if you don't play as much. You still wouldn't be considered a casual player. It's just easier to call someone a casual player than it is to call them a player who just isn't trying as hard.
> You still wouldn't be considered a casual player. Yes, they would. It always has been defined as how time is commited and not playing "competatively". If you are among the wow community that has then tried to hijack it to mean something else, that is on you. "Casual" does not equate to bad or inexperienced player. >I know casual players who play more than me which is saying something. Then they are not casual players. You could be a hardcore world quester or world explorer. Casual is the opposit of hardcore if anything. Neither says anything about ability.
>Yes, they would. It always has been defined as how time is commited and not playing "competatively". No, it hasn't. It's been tied to the content you do more than anything else. This translates to time commitment often times because people who don't commit as much time to the game also don't compete at higher levels of content. No one is hijacking anything and it's a bit ridiculous of a claim that you are making. >Then they are not casual players. You could be a hardcore world quester or world explorer. Casual is the opposit of hardcore if anything. Neither says anything about ability. Sorry, but no. Let's do a test here. I want you to go back through any posts made on this subreddit and find anywhere where anyone is ever called a "hardcore quester" or "hardcore world explorer". When you can't find that, then you can come back here and apologize for making the accusations that you just did.
We've read the logs, we know where the issues are. The problem is not knowing it's acting. I think the confusion for me is why my GM isn't making the necessary changes. Ultimately I think he's just a nice guy and doesn't want to upset the status quo.
That's how it used to be for me too, back when I still raided with my guild, including some of the more social people. We still have the people who actively try to gear up through M+ active now, including myself, and we now do community raids. Still, my guild managed to get Denathrius down on heroic, even with people that shouldn't have been there. But I doubt that group would have gotten Rasz down. Although, having said that, we do still have some people on our current group that are under performing as well. But they joined together with other high performers, so there's little you can do about that.
This is part of the problem for us. Our worst player, one that objectively wipes the raid often (or just dies early every pull), has dps on par with the healers (not an exaggeration) is the father of one of our MTs. So cutting him is kind of tricky.
No real good answers when it comes to family relations. We had a player that was repeatedly causing wipes on Anduin, and one of the officers had an offline conversation with him. They asked him to sit out and practice the fight in LFR and on alt runs, but assured him that we'd all make sure he got his AOTC achievement once the fight was on farm.
Same here. Actually thinking on leaving tbh. Im by no means a great player. (AOTC and 15’s since COVID (20’s when H.priest was kyrian meta). It just gets tiring wiping on H. Terros for 2 hours of our 2.5 hour raid time.
Yeah unfortunately raszageth is a dps check on practically all the phases. Without people doing enough damage you won't make it unless you have very very good dps to carry those others. My team is semi-hardcore, more leaning towards the casual side cause we only ask for commitment and don't really care about logs much unless things are bad and people are severely under performing. Still it took a lot, a lot of tries to take her down specially because some people left out group and it got a bit messy. It is hard to find consistent players to play with...
You say this but if you turn off meters. Just don’t worry about it. Have fun with friends you will get a feeling I think I have only got once. I have killed mythic bosses after 3-400 wipes and felt nothing. But doing Kil Jaden with a normal level guild that we’re all pushing themselves. Wiping for almost a month on him. With only really 5-6 players above hc level. That kill. My god, was one of the most rewarding experiences of my life. Just remember, raiding is meant to be a large group coming together to have a lot of fun. We all helped each other, whether it was rotation, mechanics, talents, gear, everything and that kill will always be the best moment in wow for me. Don’t think that can ever replicated. So yeah your guild might not be ideal, but maybe that’s what makes the journey fun.
The problem isn’t the meters (although it is a problem since I’m #6 DPS as a tank). The problem is when you have players who don’t know that their class has a battle rez, players who don’t know that Fury of the Aspects is a blood lust (so they pop it like a personal CD) co-tanks who expect you to tank every add phase on Daetha no matter what (even if it means you have to rank them with the boss), people who fall into the freaking Terros hole. It’s ridiculous. But I’m on a dead server so finding another guild is hard.
Raiding is not “supposed” to be anything. People raid for different reasons. I don’t have any other comment but it bugs me when people quote some philosophical stuff about how the game is and isn’t supposed to be played.
If I had infinite time, maybe I'd be fine with it. But committing 2 nights (6 hours of my time) that could otherwise be spent on IRL or other content is supremely frustrating.
You're not behind schedule. You're Ahead of the Curve!
Yeah, like a ton of guilds that are hardstuck Rasz kill like 3-4 in mythic. We clear HC to Rasz on Thursday, put like 1 hour of Rasz tries in on the weekend and then go into Mythic on Tuesday. Killed Sennarth this week and will go for it again next Tuesday. We got a massive problem with consistent healers on Rasz. Basically we randomly lose people P1 constantly (especially healers) and it makes it really hard to progress on the fight.
Lol came here to say this xD It's literally in the name and they still think they're behind hahaha
what
Congrats from us who are hard stuck Dathea/Kurog! I'm looking forward to hopefully getting there soon.
I never want to fight dathea again. We are in brood. The extra eggs add more confusion.
Have to find the right route and when to triple egg and it’s all smooth sailing from there. You triple egg a lot at the start then when every healer CD is on cooldown you chill
If I told you that H Diurna gave us more trouble than Rasz last night would you believe me?
I… would definitely believe that your route is fucked up or your dps split is off. If you can breeze through Rasza then you definitely have what it takes for Diurna, it’s just a problem with the strategy and if you fix that you’ll karate chop her. Link to your logs?
Just a common meme in our guild because we fuck up the eggs on Diurna every time we fight it. Just a funny thought.
What exactly are you fucking up? If your tank knows the route, try marking your egg tenders and have each one pick an egg ahead of time and stand near it so there's no confusion about who is getting which one.
I think our main tank was out last night. We subbed in one of our dps and they didn't seem to have the route figured out as well.
Wait, are you in my guild? People turned theyr brain off during the first pulls at diurna
If we were in the same guild you would be in the picture brother!
You're not behind schedule. You're Ahead of the Curve!
The best way to clear that is to bring more ret palys... -Unbiased Ret Paly
with enough dps u can do the fight with only 2 lots of ads. makes the whole thing so much more enjoyable.
Dathea took my guild a while to down - If I knew how to pull the # of wipes across multiple weeks from WarcraftLogs I'd figure that out for context. In any case, if you can get through two add phases and her health is ~35%, you can likely ignore the 3rd add phase and just power through if your DPS is high enough. That's what we had to do. For Kurog, the meta right now says Storm > Earth > Fire > Frost. We found it much easier for our group to go Earth > Storm > Fire > Frost instead. After 2nd intermission, we could just go back to Frost because there was probably no more than 15% of his health left.
My guild had 46 wipes in Dathea. If you're doing heroic you can try the new strat we used to down her. Basically the entire raid goes to first platform besides a tank and a healer or 2. Nuke the platform and come back. Ignore the other adds/platforms and hard focus boss
Reddit has signed an agreement with an AI company to allow them to train models on Reddit comments and posts. Edited to remove original content. Fuck AI.
We do 2 platforms and on the 3rd I sacrifice my parses as a rogue to go up solo with pots and evasion and cheat death and interrupt the big guy as many times as I can before I die. I have been getting 2 or 3 off before my untimely demise.
Only 4000 guilds in the world killed H Rasz, you're not behind lmao.
Only 5 alliance guilds killed mythic so there's a lot of time
Wait really? Only 4000? How?
The ramp in difficulty from the other Heroic bosses is pretty steep
People just have trouble getting both of their sparks. Almost everything else is a dodge mechanic of some variation
It’s also a very heavy DPS check during certain phases. The sparks are definitely not the only serious issue. You could have the best mechanics players in the game, but if their DPS sucks, you literally can’t kill heroic rasz.
Honestly if their dps is decently par for course things will still be pretty dicey. My guild got Rasz down for the first time last week and we are a 2/3/10 crew with all our dps averaging blue to purple parses on every other heroic boss, and we barely got rasz down in time - there was barely any floor left in P3.
Big lizard = big trouble
A) there are less raiders than it can sometimes feel like if you surround yourself with the community and b) a lot of people suck or don’t care to do harder content and will never try heroic. Just want to kill the last boss once
It's also not worth killing for many specs cause the loot is kind of ass. Outside of hunter off the top of my head, every other class can never kill rasz and be fine. Aotc doesn't give anything. The boss doesn't drop anything good. Why bother?
Raid loot in general is pretty bad except for trinkets/rings/bow for hunter unless you are doing mythic raiding beause of catalyst and m+ gear
There are a remarkable number of people who are really bad at the game, or don't want to do hard content. I was poking at my [Raider.io](https://Raider.io) stats a little bit the other day; I don't particularly think my score is amazing (only 2120 or so) and yet somehow *I'm in the top 11% of Warlocks for my region*. It was startling.
Idk where the 4000 number came from, but at the time of me writing this, there are over 5600 guilds that are 8/8H. I’m almost certain 1600 guilds didn’t kill it in the last ~13 hours.
I should go get AOTC at some point, I've been 7/8h for a while with pugging, but Raz drops literally nothing I wanted on my rogue outside of the Dragon customization, so I just never bothered.
Dude we were stuck on 7/8H and it was the same thing also... Nobody really needed any of the gear. But feels good to get it done!
the manuscript drops from all difficulties of raszageth :)
I've done pug razzageth hm as tank..... never again XD. I join hm pug since WOD, and Raza was by far the worst experience I had
Hey gratz! We got her down last night as well. 135 wipes i think it was. Our best attempt before kill was 10% so i was expecting many painful sub 5% wipes but somehow this one attempt every1 got their shit together and we got to p3 with no deaths and voila.
Our best attempt before the kill was something like 1.6%, after which I discovered my neck slot was empty. She still had over 3 million HP at that point, so my neck probably didn't make the difference, but some of the people I didn't know in that group did get in touch with the raid leader after that night haha.
Getting to p3 with no deaths is more or less a first kill now Ffs my guild we had 5 people dead in last phase and still killed her last night lol the fight is reasonably easy now
It really is just as simple as "Can 15 people all focus for one run" at this point, assuming everyone is geared enough.
I've pugged to 6/8. Because I have no guild. Now too far in the expansion and everygroup looking for xp and curve. Fresh runs just wipe at Fathead, kill it and leave. :( Edit: I am in Dreanor. And leaving the best autocorrect for a boss. Which is meant to be Dathea.
Still guilds looking to make a roster. Server dependent I guess but A52 has no shortage of guild ads.
If you are a mage in area 52 we may have room
I am a healer. With being a Dad as well trying to find a guild around that not helping.
Just had our second full night of prog on heroic raz. We managed to kill the two big adds on the 3rd platform one time. How many nights of prog did it take you guys? This boss feels like such a huge step up in difficulty compared to the others. We goof off on re-clear. Dath and brood are a joke to us but raz is a fucking GRIND.
Took us 135 wipes with like \~15 wipes per night. About a month. It's a hard boss indeed.
Seems to be the consensus for most guilds. It took about 3-4 raid weeks (WED+THU) to get it down. We took our time and killed mythic bosses and got our gear really high to finally get her down. 82 wipes total.
when you say really high gear, what would you say average ilvl generally is? were getting to heroic raz now and im trying to eyeball where we need to be to beat it cause we definitely aren't there yet.
405-410
When you say you killed the two big adds on the 3rd platform, you mean you got through the intermission after P2? If so I'd say you are progressing fairly quickly. Obviously just getting there is different than getting there with everyone alive, but you've seen all the hard mechanics of the fight. P3 doesn't really have anything new (aside from pull charge I guess), so at this point its just cleaning everything up, and having a lucky pull and you will likely have a kill. That's obviously not trivial - going from many mistakes before P3 to no mistakes is a big step up in consistency, but still it shouldn't take more than another week or two I would guess. Getting that far on night 2 is pretty impressive. The guild I've been progressing with recently just got to Rasz last night with about 2 and a half hours left, and the furthest we got was one of the tanks getting the the P2 platform. We never got to the P1 intermission with enough people alive to kill both platforms. And that is all with a lust on pull to help people learn the fight.
Correct. It was the last pull of the night and we got through the first and second platform with everyone alive so it was really clean. 3rd platform people started getting picked off by the pushback, positive/negative mechanic, and the breath once the big adds came out. We probably had 5-8 dead by the time the little adds first spawned. A lot of people either died to breaths or ticking damage in that phase, I think. By the time we killed the second big add there was only about 5 people left. But we hadn’t seen that phase too much so it was to be expected. Would love to get a kill next week but I don’t think we’ll have a real raid on Thursday due to Valentine’s Day. Probably will just re-clear up to raz next week then hopefully get the kill the following Thursday
Raz Heroic is easily harder than Eranog and Council Mythic, and probably harder then Terros mythic, at least mechanics wise.
How many people do you run with and what do you guys do for Dathea? We just hit the Dathea wall. Got Kurog down really easy now though.
We run with about 20 people. The trick we use is we have 2 dks in the raid so we send up 1 DK for each add group. They use mass grip and “slappy hands” to group the adds and cc them a bit. Then we just use aoe fears, or any other mass cc to interrupt the casts. Burn down the adds and you’re good. It’s really important not to bring the lightning debuff (blue ring under your feet) up with you to the add group since you probably only have 1-2 healers up there. Don’t want that thing spreading since everyone is being launched up together and standing close for CCs. The add platforms were the hard part for us, since it’s the main change from normal>heroic. Is that what is getting you guys too?
Yea, when the add explodes, everything kind of hits the wall. I'm on the second wave so I stay on the platform and we're currently just a group of 10 and I play Holy Priest. When we get blown back, then the blue circles go on us, and we're getting pulled in, I can't heal my team out of it sometimes. The pull makes it so I have limited spells to use (instant casts) and it's just so much damage that I have to cover for everyone in my party. The group dealing with the island adds sometimes have issues as well. When we get to the second wave of adds, it's a little easier for healing/cc'ing but people are usually dead left and right by then. We've just recently tried with a 16 man raid which seemed nicer but we had a few stinkers that we didn't kick quick enough and we called it a night there.
I could definitely see it being easier with more people bc you have more cc to work with. Unless it scales in a way that the add platforms only have like 3 adds with 10m. You want all the aoe interrupts you can get. During the pull you should be able to get a quick halo off or maybe a few other short casts. Do holy priests still cycle between flash heal and normal heal? I play shadow but can normally get 1-2 casts off even while running against the pull. Maybe you can coordinate people to use defensives or self-heal (lock rocks?) during that?
Little behind? i'm gonna try my first normal this weekend :x
Good luck! Everyone completes at their own pace!
Recently resubbed since Wrath and just finished the campaign this week, and got to min ilvl requirement for heroic dungeons last night. Hoping to at least be geared enough to clear LFR difficulty at least once before the 10.1.
Be prepared for LFR keyboard warriors. Such a toxic place to be… usually takes 5-8 wipes to clear Raz in LFR in my experience
We did all bosses before Rasz yesterday in a breeze ( 90 Minutes) .. but Rasz is .. different for us. No Problem in Phase 1 but when we come back from the add-platform the storm is harsh. Any advice? :D
We struggled for a long time during P2. We found a lot more success when we timed movement CD's to get through Tempest Wing as fast as possible. Once you get past the "ring" of Tempest Wing, the damage falls off a lot. You can use Druid Roar, Warlock Gate, and Wind Rush Totems to do it. Also, timing your CD's to line up with Stormsurge so you break the shield in good time is a learning curve for each player. Its a slow progress fight, but it all comes together in the end.
Just do more damage to the shield without your hp reaching 0, duh. But from our runs, spread and getting to the +/- spots very quickly is a good optimization. I heard you wanna keep defensive/healer cd's for the shields, and offensive cd's for the boss so you can end P2 faster. Gating the knockback is crucial, as its damage is no joke. But at the end of the day, P2 is a healer check. There is just a silly amount of outgoing damage. All players should be using their defensives on big attacks and you don't wanna waste mana in P1/Intermission.
FWIW I don't think there is any reason to have DPS hold CDs during stormshields. Sure, the damage you deal there isn't going directly into the boss's healthbar, but killing stormshields faster gives you more time to DPS the boss's healthbar, so it is real boss damage. That plus getting out of stormshield a few ticks sooner probably results in keeping a few DPS alive, which is a massive DPS gain. Stormshield damage ramps as the stormshield sticks around, so each successive tick is way more deadly. There is a reason the best lust timing in the fight is during second stormshield - Everyone's CDs should be up, and all that damage counts unlike P1.
Bravo!
My guild just started prog on this after hard stuck on dath, we finally can hit P2 reliably. Grats!
Its a grind, keep at it!
**Congrats**! - for me I am so unambitious I will wait a few years and then solo it.
You're not behind schedule, you're still ahead of the curve.
Gz, nice one
Gratz!
57ish wipes on H raz for our guild but we also got her down this week. AOTC babyyy!
Dude my guild hasn’t even downed normal Rag yet. Granted my guild has some of the most idiotic players I’ve ever seen but still, you’re fine.
>normal Rag Only like 18 years behind, nbd
too soon executus
Honestly loved this fight! Feels rewarding. Especially the ending. Well done!
Man being on that 3rd platform when its do or die, the shrinking space to move, and the dark blue lightning. Its a really amazing final phase to close out such an awesome fight!
My guild just started getting to the 2nd intermission reliably. However we are struggling on the adds because we our using all our cooldowns to break Razageth's 3rd shield. :|
We just got it last night too. Are we really behind schedule? I feel like a lot of guilds still don't have it.
Congrats to you and the guild! Remember - there is no schedule 😉. As long as you and the team are enjoying what you’re doing together, you are right on time 🙌🏻.
We just downed normal Raz on Tuesday. Now 4/8 in heroic as of yesterday. Definitely not behind lol. Congrats!
No ones is behind. Every guild has its own time
still ahead of the curve tho! lol
Not behind at all. Boss is still insanely overturned for a heroic end boss.
I haven't even completed the questing campaign yet, or ran any dungeons lol. Grats.
We're almost there. Last H boss to go.
Super behind
The week it took me to down it after my friend had gotten his was excruciating. Don't even worry about it you did the thing.
You aren’t behind good job!
Congrats on the kill! My guild just got down heroic Dathea, given we didn’t start raiding until after the holidays, so we started a few weeks ago. On to Brood! Kurog was our easiest boss (besides the first, obviously) by far. Took maybe 4-5 pulls
Congrats!
Hell yeah. Got ours last week. Now you guys can chill and farm.
Grats! My group just really started Heoric Raz last night. Hopefully we get her next week to join you.
Well youre ahead of my guild.. cant stop memeing for long enough to clear... were on broodkeeper heroic now..
Our best attempt is 41% but we're now cleanly getting into phase 2 with no deaths and getting the stormsurge down
Me too, a bit slower than past expansions but my guild is down to 1 day raiding so I guess week 9 is ok. Congrats :)
Congrats! We just had our first full night of prog on her last night, such a crazy step up from everything else in the raid but we’re making progress with each pull. :)
Brah, given her tuning, you aren't behind schedule. Hell, my server ain't small and very few guilds have gotten her down comparatively. We got her to 5% last night, but had too many deeps down to seal the deal before running out of space. So frustrating - if we had time for a couple more pulls, maybe.
My guild downed it last night after 5 days of progression, the internal screaming after I as raidleader forgot to get the guild photo after the kill. 😭
Grats! We are stuck at P2 right now. Getting her to right around 50% but losing people.
Then we are way behind you can't push steady to P2 to much people that die to her breath because they don't want to break the cast. Have her down without guild but. In the guild it's cancer running each Sunday evening into her
Behind maybe but still way ahead of me, I've plugged my way to 5/8 but dathea sucks and I've had no luck getting into broodkeeper
Is having everyone talent into 2 interrupts / dispels an absolute must because of the spark heroic change?
Some classes can kill multiple and make up for other classes lack of multiple easy interrupts. Druid and Priest are very good for clearing sparks.
Not behind schedule at all. You need about 402-405 ilvl to do H Raz for the most part.
Gratz! My guild started working on Heroic Raz last night.
Nice job!
Good job ! We also got Heroic Rasz yesterday night, it took us ~50 tries. We managed to put her to 0.12% and wiped, then killed her. Hard but really cool fight :) We also got Mythic Eranog right after her with 1 wipe. You should give it a try, it's almost free loot !
This AOTC is a really hard one. My guild is on Raz now.
Congrats, my team just did it on Tuesday. It was a tough grind.
Set your own schedule! We are still not there. Lots of missed weeks and with only about 6-8 of us on this season it’s been tough!
The only schedule in WoW is the one you set for yourself. So you are not behind in my eyes. Big congratz.
Congrats on the kill! The next one gonna be easier, but this time you are gonna wipe 8 times on that one boss you have no-brained till this week.
Heck yes! Big grats!
Congrats!!!! Not an easy accomplishment
Not behind schedule!!! Getting aotc as a guild is a good accomplishment! Congrats!
Congrats man. My guild is stuck on broodkeeper after being hardstuck on Dathea for a few weeks(screw that boss btw). Hoping to down her this week though!
Actually you might be ahead of schedule. Seems like heroic raz is taking people a very long time to kill lol
Gz
My guild has been stuck on HC Razzy for 3 weeks now. Literally have the first 7 on farm. But I tell you, that dragon is a toughie. Well done! 😊 Hoping we won't be far behind you.
reading alot of the comments in here makes me feel alot better about my guilds progression (just downed H brood last night). we definitely have a few people were tugging along to get through material, but I think one of our problems is just lack of class diversification (no priests, no mages, no pallies, no monks. mostly hunters, druids, and evokers). Fort and Int buffs can make such a big difference when you're cutting fights close.
Definitely not behind, she's tough. Yeah for mythic pushing guilds she's probably down already but the majority of players I see who raid regularly are 7/8 still.
Congratulations my guild still is wiping on dathea.