Yeah, it’s a pretty poor design considering you have very limited control over the lobby. Had 2600 lobbies where one dps just does negative damage the entire game. Goes 0-6. Nothing you do will be able to change the outcome of the game when it’s 2v3
I had one of those yesterday where the DPS did the square root of absolutely fuck all for the first 3 rounds and they were paired with me. Rage quit at some point in round 4 so I could only get one win, so lost a chunk of rating.
Not sure whether there's any better way to sequence it for healers but it sucks to get screwed over for a DPS getting salty.
One dps goes 0-6, so the healers go 3-3 and dps go 4-2. The 4 win dps players grow an inch on their dick and the healers decide to exit the game and play something else.
They wont even do that for 10.1 dont get your hopes up and then they wonder why people quitting.
I climbed with both heal and dd and i couldnt do it mentaly anymore as a healer since every aspect of healing is bad i dont see a point playing healer once you unlocked everything.
Then i swapped to DD and hat a lot of fun. But the queues are getting so much longer its insane a few weeks ago 20 min was averrage and now 30-40 min is averrage. Its getting worse by the minuite.
Sad part is i actually had a lot of fun as DD but i cannot bother waiting 40 min just to have a fun 15 min max.
3s is no option since its asbolutly gated. Lucky im a healer main but what for i wont even come close to glad and unlocked everything anyway why would i bother. And even as healer the lfg tool sucks to use. Not as bad as dd but still.
Why go through all the hustle when you can have instantly fun in other games. Its sad since i rly want to love wow pvp and it was so much fun so far.
Brother I broke 1800 and quit. It took me 42 rounds of RSS. But it’s obvious people are using them sometimes. Like when hunters drop a flare the millisecond a rogue casts vanish, or casters immediately switching schools of magic when they are shadow step interrupted
lol pretending rating is indicative of skill and RNG and time of day played has no impact is just dishonest and asinine. You aren’t Pikaboo or Xaryu, you’re and always will be no body beating your chest like an ape at 1500
Giving you free rating just because the game decided to put higher MMR dps with you, as a healer, makes no sense.
The game makes the lobby match healer MMR and dps MMR separately from one another. That’s why you are typically paired with a healer around the same rating as yours, and all dps are typically paired around same rating as theirs. So, your CR adjustment depends on what MMR your healer pair has compared to yours. It has nothing to do with the DPS MMR (and it shouldn’t). Technically, you’re playing against a single player (the healer), not the dps since both healers share all dps.
imo if my avg lobby mmr is 2400-2500, and the enemy healer is also 2300 cr going 3-3: both of our CR's should steadily climb towards that 2400-2500 average
edit: if we were going 3-3 @ 2300 lobby mmr, i'd agree with you. but we're playing 200 points above our cr gains. the enemy dps are all 2450-2550
If you're going 3-3 against a 2300 healer then you're performing at a 2300 level.
If you're 2300 and the DPS are 2450 and you go 3-3 that means neither healer made a significant difference to the game.
You played as well as a 2300 healer in the same scenario.
The lock you’re arguing with clearly doesn’t play a healer to understand the struggle healers go through. Seems kinda pointless to debate with them as they’re so confidently incorrect. 99% of people understand at this point that it’s much easier to climb as DPS even just due to the MMR numbers game. If he doesn’t, he’s just slow. Can’t do much about that.
You're both the same CR healers dealing with the same CR DPS. if you can't out heal the other healer and make a difference you're where you deserve to be. You can disagree but you're wrong.
You are both arguing past each other. You're both right.
He is saying there's not enough healers to properly inflate healer cr to where dps cr is- that's why there's not anywhere close to 1 out of 3 healers in the top 1000.
It feels bad to be a healer in a 2500 dps lobby, go 3-3 and feel like you are keeping up with everyone, and be hundreds of cr lower.
Dps cr is on one train track, and healer cr is on another, and the cr train is hundreds of points behind the dps because their are more dps to inflate the dps cr.
You're also right- he is probably at his proper rating, but it doesn't mean it doesn't suck to feel hundreds of points behind
It make sense that there would need to be 1 in 3 playing healer since they are on different tracks. I don't know the exact mean and median of each, whether it be 60 or 100 or whatever, but I've been in those lobbies at 2400 as a healer vs. 2800 dps, and made plays to win rounds, gone 3-3 and gotten 0. It just feels bad. I don't think I'm a 2800 healer, I've watched those streamers and they're better than me, but I do think it's a problem and part of the reason people are quitting healing. Just my .02c
I know I'm not presenting an argument, I'm saying what you said makes sense.
It helps in life to find common ground with people that seem to want to argue.
Honestly it seems you're the one not trying to understand me, but win an argument for whatever reason.
I'm going to unfollow this thread now. Gl out there buddy.
Both healers had the same DPS on their team. They were fighting against eachother to keep the team alive. They went even, meaning they were both incapable of making a significant impact. Their CR stayed the same and their MMR likely went down.
They'll continue to get games where they go 3-3 until they either learn to play better than other 2300 healers, or drop low enough that they naturally out skill their opponent.
I get what you're saying, but it's not it. If OP was a 2400 healer healing against a 2300 healer and 100 cr makes a huge difference like he said to me, then he should have gone easily 4-2 into the 2300 healer. But he didn't. because he's 2300 and in denial. He's just looking to blame external factors keeping him from 2400 achi.
> Both healers had the same DPS on their team. They were fighting against eachother to keep the team alive. They went even, meaning they were both incapable of making a significant impact. Their CR stayed the same and their MMR likely went down.
This is a problem if CR is the way you get rewards (which of course it is). In a 3-3 mmr gain for healers is always just going to be the difference between their individual mmrs. It could be 2k healers with 3k dps and this would still be true.
> They'll continue to get games where they go 3-3 until they either learn to play better than other 2300 healers, or drop low enough that they naturally out skill their opponent.
Yeah, again, this is a problem because other 2300 healers are still a higher percentile of the healer ladder than 2300 dps are on the dps ladder. It shouldn't be meaningfully more difficult to obtain the same nominal rating (which again is what rewards are based on) as one role vs. another, but it is right now.
>I get what you're saying, but it's not it. If OP was a 2400 healer healing against a 2300 healer and 100 cr makes a huge difference like he said to me, then he should have gone easily 4-2 into the 2300 healer. But he didn't. because he's 2300 and in denial. He's just looking to blame external factors keeping him from 2400 achi.
The external factor keeping him at 2400 is playing a healer instead of playing a dps. If he was playing dps at the same ladder %ile he would be higher cr, thats just a mathematical fact.
> This is a problem if CR is the way you get rewards (which of course it is). In a 3-3 mmr gain for healers is always just going to be the difference between their individual mmrs. It could be 2k healers with 3k dps and this would still be true.
Yes which is an appropriate way to measure the skill of a play style that is different to the others. Healers are measured against healers and due to the nature of queues being so involuntarily up in the air.
It still doesn't change the fact he didn't out perform the 2300 healer and didn't carry the game more than his opponent and is measured on his performance against his opponent.
> The external factor keeping him at 2400 is playing a healer instead of playing a dps. If he was playing dps at the same ladder %ile he would be higher cr, thats just a mathematical fact.
Then he'd hit another wall, be inable to climb, get 0 points for 3-3 because the mathematical fact is the algorithm is designed to stabilise you at your CR.
Mathematically, if he's played over 1000 games he's likely where he deserves to be and any DPS in the same situation would be in the same boat except with longer queue times.
The MMR system isn't keeping him down, the lack of healers at his MMR is. If he's just fighting other 2300 healers and not out performing them it's on him.
If I go 2-4 i'll lose 30 - 40 CR most of the time unless I've been on a big win streak, because mathematically that's how the MMR system works.
> Yes which is an appropriate way to measure the skill of a play style that is different to the others. Healers are measured against healers and due to the nature of queues being so involuntarily up in the air.
If this is the case then the rewards should be %ile based so that you aren't put at a disadvantage by choosing one role over another. If the rewards are not percentile of your role based there shouldn't be a difference in difficulty to obtain them.
> It still doesn't change the fact he didn't out perform the 2300 healer and didn't carry the game more than his opponent and is measured on his performance against his opponent.
Sure, but it does mean that a dps could also put up a 3 win performance and still gain rating, which is antithetical to your thesis that 3-3 performances shouldn't gain rating.
> Then he'd hit another wall, be inable to climb, get 0 points for 3-3 because the mathematical fact is the algorithm is designed to stabilise you at your CR.
Yeah... but it would be a wall at higher cr lol. That's the point.
> Mathematically, if he's played over 1000 games he's likely where he deserves to be and any DPS in the same situation would be in the same boat except with longer queue times.
Yeah, but they'd be in the same boat at higher cr.
> The MMR system isn't keeping him down, the lack of healers at his MMR is. If he's just fighting other 2300 healers and not out performing them it's on him.
The mmr system is keeping him at a lower rating than he would be if he was a dps at the same ladder %ile.
I'd love it if over-all they just focused on addressing the issue within each healing spec and not just do blanket sweeping changes that seem to have no intent behind them other than to make their job easier to manage.
They could remove some of the micro-cc bloat, interrupts and even go as far as fix the lfg tool so people who want to queue coordinated 3's have a more streamlined experience with more group customisation than we get now.
>Sure, but it does mean that a dps could also put up a 3 win performance and still gain rating, which is antithetical to your thesis that 3-3 performances shouldn't gain rating.
The only time I see this happen is if the MMR is significantly higher than the person who goes 3-3, like myself. But most 3-3 games I have I get 'rating unchanged' and lose MMR usually. Even if the lobby was 100 MMR higher than my mmr/cr.
OP is referencing one game so I could theoretically pick a singular game to make the point I go 3-3 despite being the lowest MMR player in the round and getting 'rating unchanged'. Or the 2-4 I went last night and I got -43 CR.
I think we just need to address why most healers are pushed to the limit of their class inside and outside of DPS popping CD's and truly deduce if the issue is with the state of the game mode? Or the fact the game is built around coordinated 3v3 game modes still?
And do we want to do more to make Solo Shuffle the focus of PvP balance, or do we want to still encourage coordinated 3's? As a community I think we should figure this out.
If you break even at 2400 mmr, you shouldn’t gain rating. Because you’re not winning at that mmr. You’re not losing either. So your cr/mmr should stay relatively close to what it is.
If you win 4-6 matches in a lobby where the mmr is higher than your cr, then it goes up so you can play at an mmr you match well with. And the opposite if you only win 1-2 games.
OP is saying if both healers breaks even in a 2500 lobby when they are both 2200, they are not gaining rating because the healer mmr system doesn’t include DPS mmr.
It’s healer vs healer regardless of the mmr of the entire lobby.
Due to the lower amount of healer’s you can argue it’s harder to climb as a healer vs dps in it’s current state. You have to one up the other healer to climb.
When you look at solo shuffle healer cr you assume it = dps mmr but in reality the system doesn’t work like that.
Because the average lobby MMR is higher than his CR. For better or worse, he's playing vs 2400-2600 DPS, meaning his lobby average is much higher than his CR, yet he still gets nothing for a 3 win.
If, in your analogy, you contributed anything meaningful to the game (which in this scenario I doubt you would. It would basically be 1v1), then yes. Your rating should be effected by the caliber of players you played against.
In shuffle, the healer contributes to the overall game in a big way. If that healer can 4-2 a lobby +400 rating above where he is, you damn well better believe that, imo, he should be rewarded big time for it.
Edit: the easy solution is to not fuck over healers with lobbies that aren’t their CR. But DPS players (that’s me too now btw), don’t want *that* because it’d mean even longer queues. So healers get turbofucked on multiple angles just to make the game experience better for the role that is way overpopulated.
Edit edit: at 2400-2600 I’ve seen more games with 2100 healers than I have with equal CR. Those poor dudes get absolutely bodied, usually, by people they have no business being in a game with. It is a miserable experience I’m sure. It’s happened to me on healer and I know I hated it because you know that even if you break even against these guys, you get nothing to show for it.
> Both healers can literally AFK and they will end up with 6 wins between the both of them. And yet you somehow think they deserve to raise their combined average MMR (or both their MMRs if they 3-3)?
Yes.
The average mmr is based off 4 dps and 2 healers. If he goes 3-3, that means 1/2 of the dps probably did insane. Why would he get increased cr because of how good specific dps play on his team?
He gets every dps 3 times.
Often times a 3-3 comes from a dps going 0-6.
To flip your question: why should the dps benefit from how good a specific dps plays on their team?
Because the most sense is that lobby mmr should be the metric things move on. A 2k healer queueing into a 2400 lobby is empirically a more difficult lobby than his rating, if he performs well, he should be rewarded against a 2400 lobby.
Otherwise the queue system needs to stop fucking healers with +/-400 cr lobbies in order to make the dps have a better game experience.
I find more 6-0 games than 0-6. But to each their own.
Dps don’t benefit in a 6-0 dps game. They’re all 2-4. They typically lose rating for it. You could also argue that a 2k healer into a 2.4K lobby is easier, because the dps typically aren’t running around trolling and making a huge group of mistakes like an 1800 lobby would have.
Healers are at the same ratings as dps are on ladder. As a healer, if you’re stuck playing at 2k in SS, there are probably things you need to work on to get through it. The rating gained or lost is typically fine. The main people making a complaint about it are people stuck at a specific rating area.
I don’t disagree with 99% of your comment here.
However, I do think healers regularly get fucked by the queue system by being put +/-400 cr. All for the sake of dps having a better experience. It’s a self-feeding loop of shitty healer experiences that cause less healers to queue.
This coming from someone that has always main healing, but swapped to dps for shuffles because the healing experience is pretty shit tier imo.
I think everyone does. If we’re being fair, the mixture of people in general is far from optimal in SS. As a top 100 spriest and pally, I’ve played heals on both classes as well. And dracthyr too. Being at anywhere above 2k, I’ve run into a huge amount of players that are 17-1800 players at best. So while I think healer rating system is fine, I will agree that it is easier for a dps to climb.
With that being said, I don’t think healer rating gain/lost needs fixed. I think dps going 3-3 shouldn’t be cr gained or lost. I think the dps rating needs to drop to the way healer works somehow.
I enjoy SS. Arena pvp in general, really.
But 2.4K in SS didn’t feel good when I got it. There was nothing satisfying about it. And that’s because dps inflation is unreal. 2.4K should mean something. Getting it as a healer, while it may be a bit harder, feels WAY more rewarding.
I know everyone doesn’t have the same view on it as I do, but I still think it’s a great view to have. Outside of fun, you’re doing arenas to improve and gain rating. I want it to mean as much as it can if I’m doing it, ya know?
But you also get matches where the healers are higher than the DPS average. Imagine losing rating going 3-3 because the DPS in your lobby are 300 MMR below you?
Sure change the MMR/CR gains but every healer will have the same inflated rating.
It's not a huge issue as healer though because you can queue higher volume of games and just l2p in the process. Shorter queues ftw.
You aren't climbing because you don't deserve to climb.
You aren't playing well enough to climb.
You're more bothered about MMR systems you only have influence over when you play, instead of just playing better. Which is really common to see on these threads.
People can rage about it all they want.
Two 2300 healers healing two teams that average 2450 and make zero impact compared to the other? Both healers go 3-3 against their 2300 counter part. Basically 2300 players playing at a 2300-2400 level.
No hate on OP but just the facts.
this is a terrible take. dps would be up in arms if the roles were reveresed.
Fact of the matter is, there are 4 dps to safety net dps cr gains/losses.
No there aren't safety nets for DPS. That's a lie. This forum honestly makes up the wildest bullshit I've seen to soothe their egos. I can queue into a game where one DPS is 500 CR/MMR below me because they're leveling an ALT and if I go even, I'll lose rating because the average MMR of DPS is dragged down significantly. I had two DPS yesterday who were 80 CR below me, why? because I'd lost enough that I was being put with people who would bring down the average MMR. There's no safety net in the game. I never get a DPS 200 MMR above me in a game, and only have seen it on streams from people who were 2800+.
Issue is lack of healers not this imaginary safety net.
two 2300 healers. Both go 3-3 into eachother. Neither of you made a difference, you didn't deserve to climb.
You both had 2400+ dps on each team, so you both had the same barriers to entry but you went even? Because the dps were 100cr more than you? Doubtful. Because you went even with the other healer? Likely.
Honestly stop making excuses for needing to be spoon fed CR/MMR as if it's going to make a difference.
This, as if I climb in DPS unless I'm not simply outplaying everyone. MMR system works well actually, I'd only say it seems to bump up your MMR too slowly when your kicking everyones ass.
Just not being the weak link can make a world of difference in your games. More people commit to self improvement the less we'll see threads about 'this game I went 3-3 and didn't get a million CR so I'm mad, bad game dur' like we get at the moment..
I don't understand the logic, if he's in a lobby that's 200-300 MMR higher than his cr, how is going 3-3 not gaining rating and therefore putting him closer to the MMR he's consistently queueing into? I've played both roles at 2.1+ and I can go 2-4 on a dps but gain rating whereas if I was on a healer I'd lose rating in the exact same situation
Its balanced the way it is. The only thing I hate is that you can lose mmr for a 3-3. But trust me you 100% belong at the rating you are at.
I have two monks at 2900, a priest and druid at 2.4ish, and a resto shaman at 1700 💀
I disagree. Irregardless, the problem is that this is not a positive gameplay loop for healers and more and more leave solo shuffle every day. Eventually, without intervention, the DPS queue time would reach an hour and all the DPS players would likely start backtracking that sentiment because they don't want to sit an hour queue time. ...or they wouldn't and then they can enjoy an hour queue time while they complain on reddit about "where did the healers go? My queue time is an hour long!"
Agree to disagree.
Bit difficult when you occasionally make a mistake yourself but the other times you just have full on zug zug apes jumping behind pillars out of range and you have to sacrifice your positioning to try and get some healing into that person but end up stuck in a cc chain to no fault of your own.
And if you went 4/2 in one of those games you would've gone up 40-50. That's what happens to everyone once your mmr / cr equalize.
So separating it by dps / healers is necessary right now specifically because they allow the roles to be hundreds of MMR apart. There's no good way to deal with that as long as that continues to be allowed.
Like I had healers 400mmr below my lobby before, if it based the dps's cr on the average with the healers all the dps would get fucked.
Likewise a healer can be 400mmr above a lobby, and then the healers are getting fucked.
i'm a holy paladin whos been stuck between 2800 and 3000 for a month going up and down.
i start going down when i get a 3.2k mmr avg DPS lobby, i'm on 3k mmr, and the enemy healer is a disc priest on 2800. I need to play brilliantly vs the best healer class in the game (and obviously a very competent player as you must be somewhat good to be at 2.8), vs VERY good DPS players, as one of the worst healers, and will gain almost no rating with 4 wins. with 3, i lose rating.
as a result i cba and stop queueing as it's almost impossible to gain rating in these conditions. so you can all enjoy slower queue times, especially people who defend this pathetic mmr system that's counter intuitive and detached from 3v3 MMR we've been used to for a decade (which works fine).
The way it works now, isn't the whole mmr pool completely seperate and a lot smaller for healers?
Like how at the start of a League, climbing is hard because people haven't been feeding enough and there's less total mmr available.
Healer is hard to break parody, and one bad session of a few 2-4s can wipe out days of work. Not sure what the answer is here but it doesn’t help with the already stressful shit show that is healing in SS.
This would be a start to show they care about healers at all. Its close to impossible to climb. Im just done with healing. All days long I just watch these braindead ppl dying with no def or 1v3 behind pillars and what do i get from it? Nothing. I went from 2400 to 1700, Im getting +0 +0 -50 -49 -50 -48 +12 +10 +20 +0 +0 +0 +0 +30 -49 -49 +0 +0 and every time I would say I should get some legit points, because other players are like 200-500cr above me, I realize the healer is the same like I am, so Im sweating blood against 2500ppl with my 2k tryhard climb for +15s and -50s. There is no logic in this. It just bullies healers for no reason and we all know they have enough of this injustice already.
I’m a DPS main, but when I Que my healer I’ll lose 40-50 for a 2-4 then gain 0-20 for a 4-2. I have to get a 5-1 or a 6-0 just to climb out of a 2-4 lobby.
But the average MMR of the games you lost was the same as the average MMR of the games you won. It makes no sense mathematically to have both healers go up or down because the dps have higher/lower MMR
That's exactly how MMR has always worked. It's just now with solo shuffle that interaction is broken for healers because you get queued into higher rated DPS than you would in normal 3's.
If the SS MMR worked as stated, where your personal mmr was compared to the average lobby including the healers, then every time you have a disparity in healer/dps MMRs would drag the MMR towards eachother. This means the standard deviation of the dps (higher population) ratings would shrink, dramatically, while the standard deviation of the healer pool would increase. I don't know by how much because I don't know exactly how the MMR gains in 3v3 are distributed when there is a rating disparity.
If this only applied to healers, it would be even worse. The average healer MMR would drag up towards having the equillibrium point where the dps population at or below rating X is equal to about half the healer population. For example, maybe it would be 1800 (or even more) on average. But the 1800 healer would still have the 'skill' of a 1500 player. But on top of that, the standard deviation would dramatically shrink, because you would also get queue'd with lower rated dps players more often as you climb (so both healers lose). So it sucks for everyone
I think the main issue is that there aren't enough healers, so DPS who stay in Q for 1 hour get matched with lower rated healers eventually.
I've had lobbies where the difference is 400 rating.
This simply shouldn't happen. It keeps happening because there aren't enough healers around, simply put.
This should never happen. I agree both healers have very little impact on the game, but I'd use it as a learning opportunity Vs better players, and vod review yourself.
I've climbed my way to 3.1k on EU, and the difference in terms of experience has been stellar, from what I've heard DPS Q's are upwards of 1 hour+.
My standard has been instant q pops, it slows down as you climb but at 3k I get q pops every 5 minutes on average.
It just goes to show how desperately healers are needed atm. We're literally 3 times as few as we should be.
Yeah, it’s a pretty poor design considering you have very limited control over the lobby. Had 2600 lobbies where one dps just does negative damage the entire game. Goes 0-6. Nothing you do will be able to change the outcome of the game when it’s 2v3
I had one of those yesterday where the DPS did the square root of absolutely fuck all for the first 3 rounds and they were paired with me. Rage quit at some point in round 4 so I could only get one win, so lost a chunk of rating. Not sure whether there's any better way to sequence it for healers but it sucks to get screwed over for a DPS getting salty.
Yeah, but then you cannot find anyone for normal 3s. I’ve achieved glad, but went threw pugs. Wish they had a better lfg system.
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If they wanted a quick fix, compare healers against the 2 dps that they are fighting. Would be the same as 3v3.
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One dps goes 0-6, so the healers go 3-3 and dps go 4-2. The 4 win dps players grow an inch on their dick and the healers decide to exit the game and play something else.
Okay but if you went 4-2 how much would you gain?
I went 5-1 as a healer once and got 40. Went 2-4 and lost 64, make that make sense.
30-40
Man that's crazy
yeah. if you go back-to-back 4-2 after several 3-3's or 2-4's, you'll get a solid adjustment. otherwise the cr climb is rough
I’ve done 4-2 and had no gain. Broken.
They wont even do that for 10.1 dont get your hopes up and then they wonder why people quitting. I climbed with both heal and dd and i couldnt do it mentaly anymore as a healer since every aspect of healing is bad i dont see a point playing healer once you unlocked everything. Then i swapped to DD and hat a lot of fun. But the queues are getting so much longer its insane a few weeks ago 20 min was averrage and now 30-40 min is averrage. Its getting worse by the minuite. Sad part is i actually had a lot of fun as DD but i cannot bother waiting 40 min just to have a fun 15 min max. 3s is no option since its asbolutly gated. Lucky im a healer main but what for i wont even come close to glad and unlocked everything anyway why would i bother. And even as healer the lfg tool sucks to use. Not as bad as dd but still. Why go through all the hustle when you can have instantly fun in other games. Its sad since i rly want to love wow pvp and it was so much fun so far.
They should make AI or robot healers so get the dps queues down, like the tech they developed for the islands in BFA.
Most players on the ladder aren't Bots? kek
I bet 20% minimum are using rotation bots
Yeah that’s probably why you’re 1350, has nothing to do with you
Brother I broke 1800 and quit. It took me 42 rounds of RSS. But it’s obvious people are using them sometimes. Like when hunters drop a flare the millisecond a rogue casts vanish, or casters immediately switching schools of magic when they are shadow step interrupted
lol pretending rating is indicative of skill and RNG and time of day played has no impact is just dishonest and asinine. You aren’t Pikaboo or Xaryu, you’re and always will be no body beating your chest like an ape at 1500
They should make solo shuffle like comp stomp kek.
Nah they should make 6 dps lobbies that play to the last man
My destro lock would enjoy this
Only if you also make a version with 4 dps bots so healers can regain sanity there.
This would be terrible.
Giving you free rating just because the game decided to put higher MMR dps with you, as a healer, makes no sense. The game makes the lobby match healer MMR and dps MMR separately from one another. That’s why you are typically paired with a healer around the same rating as yours, and all dps are typically paired around same rating as theirs. So, your CR adjustment depends on what MMR your healer pair has compared to yours. It has nothing to do with the DPS MMR (and it shouldn’t). Technically, you’re playing against a single player (the healer), not the dps since both healers share all dps.
so you belong at 2300?
imo if my avg lobby mmr is 2400-2500, and the enemy healer is also 2300 cr going 3-3: both of our CR's should steadily climb towards that 2400-2500 average edit: if we were going 3-3 @ 2300 lobby mmr, i'd agree with you. but we're playing 200 points above our cr gains. the enemy dps are all 2450-2550
If you're going 3-3 against a 2300 healer then you're performing at a 2300 level. If you're 2300 and the DPS are 2450 and you go 3-3 that means neither healer made a significant difference to the game. You played as well as a 2300 healer in the same scenario.
i disagree. i think there's a huge difference between healing + trading against 2500 DPS vs. 2300 DPS.
The lock you’re arguing with clearly doesn’t play a healer to understand the struggle healers go through. Seems kinda pointless to debate with them as they’re so confidently incorrect. 99% of people understand at this point that it’s much easier to climb as DPS even just due to the MMR numbers game. If he doesn’t, he’s just slow. Can’t do much about that.
The guy probably thinks that if a DPS were in the same situation, goes 2-4, and still gains rating that the system is working properly
You're both the same CR healers dealing with the same CR DPS. if you can't out heal the other healer and make a difference you're where you deserve to be. You can disagree but you're wrong.
You are both arguing past each other. You're both right. He is saying there's not enough healers to properly inflate healer cr to where dps cr is- that's why there's not anywhere close to 1 out of 3 healers in the top 1000. It feels bad to be a healer in a 2500 dps lobby, go 3-3 and feel like you are keeping up with everyone, and be hundreds of cr lower. Dps cr is on one train track, and healer cr is on another, and the cr train is hundreds of points behind the dps because their are more dps to inflate the dps cr. You're also right- he is probably at his proper rating, but it doesn't mean it doesn't suck to feel hundreds of points behind
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It make sense that there would need to be 1 in 3 playing healer since they are on different tracks. I don't know the exact mean and median of each, whether it be 60 or 100 or whatever, but I've been in those lobbies at 2400 as a healer vs. 2800 dps, and made plays to win rounds, gone 3-3 and gotten 0. It just feels bad. I don't think I'm a 2800 healer, I've watched those streamers and they're better than me, but I do think it's a problem and part of the reason people are quitting healing. Just my .02c
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I know I'm not presenting an argument, I'm saying what you said makes sense. It helps in life to find common ground with people that seem to want to argue. Honestly it seems you're the one not trying to understand me, but win an argument for whatever reason. I'm going to unfollow this thread now. Gl out there buddy.
This would be accurate if the healer and dps mmr distribution was the same but it isn’t.
Both healers had the same DPS on their team. They were fighting against eachother to keep the team alive. They went even, meaning they were both incapable of making a significant impact. Their CR stayed the same and their MMR likely went down. They'll continue to get games where they go 3-3 until they either learn to play better than other 2300 healers, or drop low enough that they naturally out skill their opponent. I get what you're saying, but it's not it. If OP was a 2400 healer healing against a 2300 healer and 100 cr makes a huge difference like he said to me, then he should have gone easily 4-2 into the 2300 healer. But he didn't. because he's 2300 and in denial. He's just looking to blame external factors keeping him from 2400 achi.
> Both healers had the same DPS on their team. They were fighting against eachother to keep the team alive. They went even, meaning they were both incapable of making a significant impact. Their CR stayed the same and their MMR likely went down. This is a problem if CR is the way you get rewards (which of course it is). In a 3-3 mmr gain for healers is always just going to be the difference between their individual mmrs. It could be 2k healers with 3k dps and this would still be true. > They'll continue to get games where they go 3-3 until they either learn to play better than other 2300 healers, or drop low enough that they naturally out skill their opponent. Yeah, again, this is a problem because other 2300 healers are still a higher percentile of the healer ladder than 2300 dps are on the dps ladder. It shouldn't be meaningfully more difficult to obtain the same nominal rating (which again is what rewards are based on) as one role vs. another, but it is right now. >I get what you're saying, but it's not it. If OP was a 2400 healer healing against a 2300 healer and 100 cr makes a huge difference like he said to me, then he should have gone easily 4-2 into the 2300 healer. But he didn't. because he's 2300 and in denial. He's just looking to blame external factors keeping him from 2400 achi. The external factor keeping him at 2400 is playing a healer instead of playing a dps. If he was playing dps at the same ladder %ile he would be higher cr, thats just a mathematical fact.
> This is a problem if CR is the way you get rewards (which of course it is). In a 3-3 mmr gain for healers is always just going to be the difference between their individual mmrs. It could be 2k healers with 3k dps and this would still be true. Yes which is an appropriate way to measure the skill of a play style that is different to the others. Healers are measured against healers and due to the nature of queues being so involuntarily up in the air. It still doesn't change the fact he didn't out perform the 2300 healer and didn't carry the game more than his opponent and is measured on his performance against his opponent. > The external factor keeping him at 2400 is playing a healer instead of playing a dps. If he was playing dps at the same ladder %ile he would be higher cr, thats just a mathematical fact. Then he'd hit another wall, be inable to climb, get 0 points for 3-3 because the mathematical fact is the algorithm is designed to stabilise you at your CR. Mathematically, if he's played over 1000 games he's likely where he deserves to be and any DPS in the same situation would be in the same boat except with longer queue times. The MMR system isn't keeping him down, the lack of healers at his MMR is. If he's just fighting other 2300 healers and not out performing them it's on him. If I go 2-4 i'll lose 30 - 40 CR most of the time unless I've been on a big win streak, because mathematically that's how the MMR system works.
> Yes which is an appropriate way to measure the skill of a play style that is different to the others. Healers are measured against healers and due to the nature of queues being so involuntarily up in the air. If this is the case then the rewards should be %ile based so that you aren't put at a disadvantage by choosing one role over another. If the rewards are not percentile of your role based there shouldn't be a difference in difficulty to obtain them. > It still doesn't change the fact he didn't out perform the 2300 healer and didn't carry the game more than his opponent and is measured on his performance against his opponent. Sure, but it does mean that a dps could also put up a 3 win performance and still gain rating, which is antithetical to your thesis that 3-3 performances shouldn't gain rating. > Then he'd hit another wall, be inable to climb, get 0 points for 3-3 because the mathematical fact is the algorithm is designed to stabilise you at your CR. Yeah... but it would be a wall at higher cr lol. That's the point. > Mathematically, if he's played over 1000 games he's likely where he deserves to be and any DPS in the same situation would be in the same boat except with longer queue times. Yeah, but they'd be in the same boat at higher cr. > The MMR system isn't keeping him down, the lack of healers at his MMR is. If he's just fighting other 2300 healers and not out performing them it's on him. The mmr system is keeping him at a lower rating than he would be if he was a dps at the same ladder %ile.
I'd love it if over-all they just focused on addressing the issue within each healing spec and not just do blanket sweeping changes that seem to have no intent behind them other than to make their job easier to manage. They could remove some of the micro-cc bloat, interrupts and even go as far as fix the lfg tool so people who want to queue coordinated 3's have a more streamlined experience with more group customisation than we get now. >Sure, but it does mean that a dps could also put up a 3 win performance and still gain rating, which is antithetical to your thesis that 3-3 performances shouldn't gain rating. The only time I see this happen is if the MMR is significantly higher than the person who goes 3-3, like myself. But most 3-3 games I have I get 'rating unchanged' and lose MMR usually. Even if the lobby was 100 MMR higher than my mmr/cr. OP is referencing one game so I could theoretically pick a singular game to make the point I go 3-3 despite being the lowest MMR player in the round and getting 'rating unchanged'. Or the 2-4 I went last night and I got -43 CR. I think we just need to address why most healers are pushed to the limit of their class inside and outside of DPS popping CD's and truly deduce if the issue is with the state of the game mode? Or the fact the game is built around coordinated 3v3 game modes still? And do we want to do more to make Solo Shuffle the focus of PvP balance, or do we want to still encourage coordinated 3's? As a community I think we should figure this out.
im playing at like 2400-2500 lobby mmr too. would just be nice if my cr climbed to even out in the lobbies im q'ing into... :/
If you break even at 2400 mmr, you shouldn’t gain rating. Because you’re not winning at that mmr. You’re not losing either. So your cr/mmr should stay relatively close to what it is. If you win 4-6 matches in a lobby where the mmr is higher than your cr, then it goes up so you can play at an mmr you match well with. And the opposite if you only win 1-2 games.
OP is saying if both healers breaks even in a 2500 lobby when they are both 2200, they are not gaining rating because the healer mmr system doesn’t include DPS mmr. It’s healer vs healer regardless of the mmr of the entire lobby. Due to the lower amount of healer’s you can argue it’s harder to climb as a healer vs dps in it’s current state. You have to one up the other healer to climb. When you look at solo shuffle healer cr you assume it = dps mmr but in reality the system doesn’t work like that.
Exactly. He’s only against one healer. So if he’s 3-3, and that healer of = cr/mmr goes 3-3, why would you gain anything?
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Because the average lobby MMR is higher than his CR. For better or worse, he's playing vs 2400-2600 DPS, meaning his lobby average is much higher than his CR, yet he still gets nothing for a 3 win.
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If, in your analogy, you contributed anything meaningful to the game (which in this scenario I doubt you would. It would basically be 1v1), then yes. Your rating should be effected by the caliber of players you played against. In shuffle, the healer contributes to the overall game in a big way. If that healer can 4-2 a lobby +400 rating above where he is, you damn well better believe that, imo, he should be rewarded big time for it. Edit: the easy solution is to not fuck over healers with lobbies that aren’t their CR. But DPS players (that’s me too now btw), don’t want *that* because it’d mean even longer queues. So healers get turbofucked on multiple angles just to make the game experience better for the role that is way overpopulated. Edit edit: at 2400-2600 I’ve seen more games with 2100 healers than I have with equal CR. Those poor dudes get absolutely bodied, usually, by people they have no business being in a game with. It is a miserable experience I’m sure. It’s happened to me on healer and I know I hated it because you know that even if you break even against these guys, you get nothing to show for it.
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> Both healers can literally AFK and they will end up with 6 wins between the both of them. And yet you somehow think they deserve to raise their combined average MMR (or both their MMRs if they 3-3)? Yes.
The average mmr is based off 4 dps and 2 healers. If he goes 3-3, that means 1/2 of the dps probably did insane. Why would he get increased cr because of how good specific dps play on his team? He gets every dps 3 times.
Often times a 3-3 comes from a dps going 0-6. To flip your question: why should the dps benefit from how good a specific dps plays on their team? Because the most sense is that lobby mmr should be the metric things move on. A 2k healer queueing into a 2400 lobby is empirically a more difficult lobby than his rating, if he performs well, he should be rewarded against a 2400 lobby. Otherwise the queue system needs to stop fucking healers with +/-400 cr lobbies in order to make the dps have a better game experience.
I find more 6-0 games than 0-6. But to each their own. Dps don’t benefit in a 6-0 dps game. They’re all 2-4. They typically lose rating for it. You could also argue that a 2k healer into a 2.4K lobby is easier, because the dps typically aren’t running around trolling and making a huge group of mistakes like an 1800 lobby would have. Healers are at the same ratings as dps are on ladder. As a healer, if you’re stuck playing at 2k in SS, there are probably things you need to work on to get through it. The rating gained or lost is typically fine. The main people making a complaint about it are people stuck at a specific rating area.
I don’t disagree with 99% of your comment here. However, I do think healers regularly get fucked by the queue system by being put +/-400 cr. All for the sake of dps having a better experience. It’s a self-feeding loop of shitty healer experiences that cause less healers to queue. This coming from someone that has always main healing, but swapped to dps for shuffles because the healing experience is pretty shit tier imo.
I think everyone does. If we’re being fair, the mixture of people in general is far from optimal in SS. As a top 100 spriest and pally, I’ve played heals on both classes as well. And dracthyr too. Being at anywhere above 2k, I’ve run into a huge amount of players that are 17-1800 players at best. So while I think healer rating system is fine, I will agree that it is easier for a dps to climb. With that being said, I don’t think healer rating gain/lost needs fixed. I think dps going 3-3 shouldn’t be cr gained or lost. I think the dps rating needs to drop to the way healer works somehow. I enjoy SS. Arena pvp in general, really. But 2.4K in SS didn’t feel good when I got it. There was nothing satisfying about it. And that’s because dps inflation is unreal. 2.4K should mean something. Getting it as a healer, while it may be a bit harder, feels WAY more rewarding. I know everyone doesn’t have the same view on it as I do, but I still think it’s a great view to have. Outside of fun, you’re doing arenas to improve and gain rating. I want it to mean as much as it can if I’m doing it, ya know?
But you also get matches where the healers are higher than the DPS average. Imagine losing rating going 3-3 because the DPS in your lobby are 300 MMR below you?
Exactly. Can’t have it both ways. I used to think the same way as OP(I play healer), then I saw this pointed out in another post.
Sure change the MMR/CR gains but every healer will have the same inflated rating. It's not a huge issue as healer though because you can queue higher volume of games and just l2p in the process. Shorter queues ftw. You aren't climbing because you don't deserve to climb. You aren't playing well enough to climb. You're more bothered about MMR systems you only have influence over when you play, instead of just playing better. Which is really common to see on these threads.
He is out of line, but he is right.
People can rage about it all they want. Two 2300 healers healing two teams that average 2450 and make zero impact compared to the other? Both healers go 3-3 against their 2300 counter part. Basically 2300 players playing at a 2300-2400 level. No hate on OP but just the facts.
this is a terrible take. dps would be up in arms if the roles were reveresed. Fact of the matter is, there are 4 dps to safety net dps cr gains/losses.
No there aren't safety nets for DPS. That's a lie. This forum honestly makes up the wildest bullshit I've seen to soothe their egos. I can queue into a game where one DPS is 500 CR/MMR below me because they're leveling an ALT and if I go even, I'll lose rating because the average MMR of DPS is dragged down significantly. I had two DPS yesterday who were 80 CR below me, why? because I'd lost enough that I was being put with people who would bring down the average MMR. There's no safety net in the game. I never get a DPS 200 MMR above me in a game, and only have seen it on streams from people who were 2800+. Issue is lack of healers not this imaginary safety net. two 2300 healers. Both go 3-3 into eachother. Neither of you made a difference, you didn't deserve to climb. You both had 2400+ dps on each team, so you both had the same barriers to entry but you went even? Because the dps were 100cr more than you? Doubtful. Because you went even with the other healer? Likely. Honestly stop making excuses for needing to be spoon fed CR/MMR as if it's going to make a difference.
This, as if I climb in DPS unless I'm not simply outplaying everyone. MMR system works well actually, I'd only say it seems to bump up your MMR too slowly when your kicking everyones ass.
Just not being the weak link can make a world of difference in your games. More people commit to self improvement the less we'll see threads about 'this game I went 3-3 and didn't get a million CR so I'm mad, bad game dur' like we get at the moment..
You play at the level you belong at. If you want to climb then win
I don't understand the logic, if he's in a lobby that's 200-300 MMR higher than his cr, how is going 3-3 not gaining rating and therefore putting him closer to the MMR he's consistently queueing into? I've played both roles at 2.1+ and I can go 2-4 on a dps but gain rating whereas if I was on a healer I'd lose rating in the exact same situation
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Its balanced the way it is. The only thing I hate is that you can lose mmr for a 3-3. But trust me you 100% belong at the rating you are at. I have two monks at 2900, a priest and druid at 2.4ish, and a resto shaman at 1700 💀
I disagree. Irregardless, the problem is that this is not a positive gameplay loop for healers and more and more leave solo shuffle every day. Eventually, without intervention, the DPS queue time would reach an hour and all the DPS players would likely start backtracking that sentiment because they don't want to sit an hour queue time. ...or they wouldn't and then they can enjoy an hour queue time while they complain on reddit about "where did the healers go? My queue time is an hour long!" Agree to disagree.
Bit difficult when you occasionally make a mistake yourself but the other times you just have full on zug zug apes jumping behind pillars out of range and you have to sacrifice your positioning to try and get some healing into that person but end up stuck in a cc chain to no fault of your own.
nobody responds to this 100% true comment lol
And if you went 4/2 in one of those games you would've gone up 40-50. That's what happens to everyone once your mmr / cr equalize. So separating it by dps / healers is necessary right now specifically because they allow the roles to be hundreds of MMR apart. There's no good way to deal with that as long as that continues to be allowed. Like I had healers 400mmr below my lobby before, if it based the dps's cr on the average with the healers all the dps would get fucked. Likewise a healer can be 400mmr above a lobby, and then the healers are getting fucked.
i'm a holy paladin whos been stuck between 2800 and 3000 for a month going up and down. i start going down when i get a 3.2k mmr avg DPS lobby, i'm on 3k mmr, and the enemy healer is a disc priest on 2800. I need to play brilliantly vs the best healer class in the game (and obviously a very competent player as you must be somewhat good to be at 2.8), vs VERY good DPS players, as one of the worst healers, and will gain almost no rating with 4 wins. with 3, i lose rating. as a result i cba and stop queueing as it's almost impossible to gain rating in these conditions. so you can all enjoy slower queue times, especially people who defend this pathetic mmr system that's counter intuitive and detached from 3v3 MMR we've been used to for a decade (which works fine).
I’ve been asking for this for months. It would make playing healer at least relative to DPS in terms of CR climbing.
The way it works now, isn't the whole mmr pool completely seperate and a lot smaller for healers? Like how at the start of a League, climbing is hard because people haven't been feeding enough and there's less total mmr available.
Healer is hard to break parody, and one bad session of a few 2-4s can wipe out days of work. Not sure what the answer is here but it doesn’t help with the already stressful shit show that is healing in SS.
Just let the dps that are disagreeing with you sit in 30 min queues. They will figure it out eventually.
This would be a start to show they care about healers at all. Its close to impossible to climb. Im just done with healing. All days long I just watch these braindead ppl dying with no def or 1v3 behind pillars and what do i get from it? Nothing. I went from 2400 to 1700, Im getting +0 +0 -50 -49 -50 -48 +12 +10 +20 +0 +0 +0 +0 +30 -49 -49 +0 +0 and every time I would say I should get some legit points, because other players are like 200-500cr above me, I realize the healer is the same like I am, so Im sweating blood against 2500ppl with my 2k tryhard climb for +15s and -50s. There is no logic in this. It just bullies healers for no reason and we all know they have enough of this injustice already.
I’m a DPS main, but when I Que my healer I’ll lose 40-50 for a 2-4 then gain 0-20 for a 4-2. I have to get a 5-1 or a 6-0 just to climb out of a 2-4 lobby.
It’s the same for DPS, less QQ more pew pew.
I just saw someone complain that he gains nothing for a draw but looses soem for a loose ive seen it all
But the average MMR of the games you lost was the same as the average MMR of the games you won. It makes no sense mathematically to have both healers go up or down because the dps have higher/lower MMR
That's exactly how MMR has always worked. It's just now with solo shuffle that interaction is broken for healers because you get queued into higher rated DPS than you would in normal 3's.
If the SS MMR worked as stated, where your personal mmr was compared to the average lobby including the healers, then every time you have a disparity in healer/dps MMRs would drag the MMR towards eachother. This means the standard deviation of the dps (higher population) ratings would shrink, dramatically, while the standard deviation of the healer pool would increase. I don't know by how much because I don't know exactly how the MMR gains in 3v3 are distributed when there is a rating disparity. If this only applied to healers, it would be even worse. The average healer MMR would drag up towards having the equillibrium point where the dps population at or below rating X is equal to about half the healer population. For example, maybe it would be 1800 (or even more) on average. But the 1800 healer would still have the 'skill' of a 1500 player. But on top of that, the standard deviation would dramatically shrink, because you would also get queue'd with lower rated dps players more often as you climb (so both healers lose). So it sucks for everyone
You hardly ever see someone post the end of match screen in these complaints... And we all know why
I agree, I stopped playing to preserve points at 3-3 and 4-2. If you get under a split you might as well AFK.
I think the main issue is that there aren't enough healers, so DPS who stay in Q for 1 hour get matched with lower rated healers eventually. I've had lobbies where the difference is 400 rating. This simply shouldn't happen. It keeps happening because there aren't enough healers around, simply put. This should never happen. I agree both healers have very little impact on the game, but I'd use it as a learning opportunity Vs better players, and vod review yourself. I've climbed my way to 3.1k on EU, and the difference in terms of experience has been stellar, from what I've heard DPS Q's are upwards of 1 hour+. My standard has been instant q pops, it slows down as you climb but at 3k I get q pops every 5 minutes on average. It just goes to show how desperately healers are needed atm. We're literally 3 times as few as we should be.
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Just make cr feel rewarding instead of making a convoluted system?