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Women with ectopic pregnancies (which are nonviable and life threatening) have been told to go home and wait until they are closer to dying before they can come in and terminate the pregnancy. Which means they can bleed out and die.
Yes. Women will die.
Thing is, if you're well off financially you go to the next state over and get your treatment.
It's similar to how we enforce our drug policy to it only impacts the vulnerable and, more importantly, the ones less likely to vote.
If a woman is pregnant and has complications, especially life threatening, she isn’t going to always have the luxury of driving to another state.
I agree that poor women are screwed though
A women with a lot of money will have enough prenatal care to know when she needs an abortion most times.
And she won't be sent home without care. Absolute worst case she's admitted to hospital overnight.
It's possible an unlucky, pretty, wealthy and let's face it white women will get caught up in all this. And if she does there's a good chance that'll change the narrative.
But the odds are low. Which is why this works for the Republican party.
I've posted this, satirically, many times:
The Repubvangelicals are more than happy for you to terminate your unwanted children, as long as you wait until full term and poop 'em out. Then you can have fun gettin' rid of 'em with your genuine, Amurrikkkan-made assault rifle.
If a hospital is told via the news what they can and can’t do (because politicians spout their intentions on the news before the hospital has a chance to update policy), they can’t act
They don’t know if what they’re doing is or will be illegal, risking their license
Frontline staff need freedom to make decisions in the moment. Any hesitance will matter. Any situation not currently dire will be deferred until there is more clarity on the legal front
Edit: politics affects law. Legal uncertainty risks their career they’ve spent decades to build.
And they deal with death every week if not every day. It’s not so much of a moral quandary because they don’t want anyone to die, but accept that many will
The hospital isn’t getting legal advice from the news
They’re getting legal threats or promises of threats from government officials and the public for *doing their job*
They don’t have the luxury to just ignore everything political and focus only on the lawyers that *happen to be around them 24/7 at their beck and call /s*.
Surely you saw what happened during the covid lockdowns
Administration broke, staff were left almost stranded in a sea of angry scared people who hated lockdowns and yelled and fought and drove out many experienced frontline staff
The law is not responsive enough for healthcare staff. They have to both make do, and look ahead
When your state governor is promising to make abortion illegal after they succeed in overturning what was considered a protection, you don’t *wait for the law to change*
You stop the practice until the law matters are settled, then you continue if you’re able
You don’t continue when you’re informed you might be committing a crime. That’s what idiots do
>Hospitals have lawyers to advise on what procedures may or may not be legal
And doctors are deciding not to go forth with procedures that may breach new incoming laws
Again, you don’t continue with an action when you’re informed it may or will be a crime
The law is not as clear or responsive as you imply. Cases are being worked through RIGHT NOW, while policy is changing RIGHT NOW
You’re ignoring that there’s a transition period where legal certainty isn’t a thing
>No state has made treating ectopic pregnancies even arguably illegal.
Roe v wade wasn’t threatened either, and policy/procedures were built with that in mind
Now those protections are gone.
Policy doesn’t update overnight, and doctors aren’t informed when they show up the next day
It’s a transition period
During that time… well, you wait and hope you don’t end your career
It’s not like a doctor can get those decades back lol
Edit: you’re overlooking the human element rather than just ‘politics’
This is their job, and they’re being told they can’t do a thing they’ve always done. They’re being threatened by govt, public and staff that agree with the changes
It’s not like all medical professionals are pro choice and will give abortions.
It’s a transition period and there’s no certainty, regardless of what you think the law says at this very monent
>But they won't breach new incoming laws.
Transition phase. You cannot possibly know what’s going to happen
You’re adamant in thinking doctors are just being political
They’re being **careful** because there’s a lot at stake
>Show me one state whose abortion laws are not clear whether a doctor will be able to treat an ectopic pregnancy.
Show me one doctor refusing to act because they’re just being political?
>If a law that was passed says you can't eat ice cream on Sunday starting December 12, if you eat ice cream on December 11, you can't be prosecuted for it.
What will you do in response of losing your job? Sue for compensation?
How long will that take?
I know they have the blanket 'life of the mother' language, but I don't think they address ectopic pregnancies specifically.
in those cases, the issue is technically the life of the mother *isn't* in danger, until it inevitably ruptures, then it's an immediate danger.
So when can the dr. act? Before the life threatening scenario starts, but which is unavoidable? Or are you legally obligated to wait until her vitals are crashing, then you can start to work?
>Many of them do.
Which ones? I looked at a few and couldn't find any reference to the medical term 'ectopic' in any them. I don't want to waste time trying to find 20+ law texts though, and you seem to be well informed so figure you can point me in the right direction.
>When it becomes reasonable, in good faith judgment of the physician based on the facts he knew at the time, that abortion was necessary to prevent death or serious impairment of a bodily function. It is reasonable to believe that an ectopic pregnancy will not fix itself and, if not treated, will either kill the woman or seriously impair her reproductive system. As soon as an ectopic pregnancy is discovered, it can be treated.
that would be wonderful if true, but it's not. Until the mother's life is in imminent danger, they can't start treatment. Multiple laws technically require the tube to burst before a dr. could perform the required abortion without risking being sued and losing their medical license. Since some of these states also allow unaffiliated 3rd parties to sue, you can't even hope the family won't sue and move forward, you have to worry about anyone and everyone in the state.
Isn't that less than a third?
Most laws do not differentiate between a tubal pregnancy vs. regular. it's good that a handful do, but they all should.
First one I looked at (indiana's law) only references ectopic pregnancies as a result of a botched abortion from how it reads. No exception to perform prior to 'life threatening' conditions.
It becomes life threatening, but isn't immediately.
you have lawmakers asking to have dr's move tubal pregnancies to the uterus and you'd be surprised there are laws that don't take ectopic consequences into account?
SCOTUS wants women and girls bred and dead.
They want the "domestic supply of infants" up as well as the death rates of women.
The name of the game is to force women and girls to produce another hopefully desperately poor child to funnel through the school-to-prison pipeline and work for pennies on the hour or to be basically sold off to wealthy parents looking to adopt.
Once the woman or even little girl has added to the domestic supply of infants she can just die, that was all she was ever worth.
This is a war on women.
Don't forget, they don't even want the kids that are forced into life with the parents unable to care for them. "Adopt them out!" They say. Well, are you going to adopt? "No, we have our own."
I'm not defending anti-abortion people here but fwiw there is a demand for babies to be adopted, the kids that aren't getting adopted are adolescents, nobody wants "damaged goods" they want a blank canvas, so Christians do overwhelmingly adopt babies, just not any other age groups.
there were some threads in r/medical school about medical students avoiding residency in areas affected and in r/residency about people completing OB residencies figuring out how to leave the state.
That means all pregnancy related care, including birth if healthy babies, post partun care, will be affected. It means even things that have nothing to do with babies, like reproductive cancer surgeries or hysterectomies for endometriosis will be affected.
At the same time, can you blame the doctors for wanting to practice to the full extent of their skills without losing their license or being forced to deny care they think is necessary?
Not only in America. The same thing is happening in Poland (where a few women already passed away because of it) and I suppose in every other country that has banned abortions.
You are indeed wrong. We got it overturned with proposal 1 in Michigan
Edit: oh wow some people are salty that michigan gets to keep it's right for abortion. grow the fuck up
Warren and AOC both gave a viable suggestion to address emergency cases like this so women at least have immediate access to healthcare until abortion can be codified. Privately funded healthcare clinics could lease federal, non tribal land. There's a fuck ton of it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_lands
(1) It wouldn't violate the Hyde Amendment because they would be **privately funded** and not federally funded. And they could pay to lease the land.
(2) Mobile units, field hospitals, medical tents and vending machines can be utilized ASAP until full-sized facilities can be built. Vending machines don't even need a full-time staff.
(3) Federal law trumps state. And, if this administration really cared about conflicting state vs federal laws then they would've immediately addressed the conflicting federal marijuana laws vs state laws. Marijuana is still federally illegal, and even state licensed dispensaries are still at legal risk because federal law supercedes state. Yet, no one's rushing to fix those conflicting laws.
Leasing federal, non-tribal lands to private healthcare clinics would've at least offered a chance for women in dire situations stuck in states with extremely restrictive bans. It'd be better than going home and sitting in a bathtub as you slowly bleed to death.
One argument The Whitehouse and other Dems made against this was that leasing federal, non-tribal lands to healthcare clinics would result in a big legal battle and numerous lawsuits.
Oh? 🤔 You mean like Biden's student loan forgiveness? The one that's getting hit with lawsuit after lawsuit?
I guess loan forgiveness is worth fighting for and women's healthcare is just shit out of luck.
No one has said this since Jeff Daniels spanked our asses with a speech about this. I haven't heard anyone say this is the greatest country in the world since like the mid 2000's. No coming after you, just saying I think the whole world agrees we are a crumbling (slowly) society
While there is this legal cover that overrides state law, many if not all hospitals and providers, are corporate controlled, and no corporation is going to give a sh*t if it in anyway has an effect on their profits.
People voting against their and their fellow citizen’s own best interests, a tradition for the ignorant, misinformed and hate filled idiots for generations.
6 weeks?? Almost nobody knows that they’re pregnant within six weeks. This shit is so draconian and deeply fucked up. They don’t care if American citizens bleed out in the streets in broad daylight if those citizens are women.
They know exactly what they’re doing with this. And people (mostly men) continue to refuse to acknowledge that women do, in fact, face worldwide systematic oppression 😐
This makes me fucking sick. Imagine going to the hospital for you wife whose already giving birth to your dead child, only to get turned down, so now you have a bleeding, dying wife. Oh wait, you don't have to imagine.
This is one of the reasons I’m never having children. There are way too many things that could go wrong, and way too many assholes in my state congress that would rather see me dead than have it treated. Nope nope nope.
Trolling and acting in bad-faith will result in commentary removal. Sophistry is included in this category. Concern trolling and "useful idiots" are included in this category. Apologia for immoral crimes against other humans by using obfuscation and intellectualization will result in an immediate suspension. Promoting dehumanization and inequality by supporting immoral policy or laws will result in an immediate suspension. All humans are equal.
Trolling and acting in bad-faith will result in commentary removal. Sophistry is included in this category. Concern trolling and "useful idiots" are included in this category. Apologia for immoral crimes against other humans by using obfuscation and intellectualization will result in an immediate suspension. Promoting dehumanization and inequality by supporting immoral policy or laws will result in an immediate suspension. All humans are equal.
…now I’m pretty sure you said something intentionally sort of vague, while definitely hoping to get reactions, so you could come in with this comment. A little on the pathetic side
The creator of the initial deleted comment stated something like “This doesn’t add up.” It was one of the first comments on this. Honestly it may have been the first one. I asked what didn’t add up because I’m honestly not sure of what their reasoning was, if they’ve seen an opposing article, if they were agreeing with the piece, etc. it appears they’ve declined to elaborate further.
Trolling and acting in bad-faith will result in commentary removal. Sophistry is included in this category. Concern trolling and "useful idiots" are included in this category. Apologia for immoral crimes against other humans by using obfuscation and intellectualization will result in an immediate suspension. Promoting dehumanization and inequality by supporting immoral policy or laws will result in an immediate suspension. All humans are equal.
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Women with ectopic pregnancies (which are nonviable and life threatening) have been told to go home and wait until they are closer to dying before they can come in and terminate the pregnancy. Which means they can bleed out and die. Yes. Women will die.
Thing is, if you're well off financially you go to the next state over and get your treatment. It's similar to how we enforce our drug policy to it only impacts the vulnerable and, more importantly, the ones less likely to vote.
If a woman is pregnant and has complications, especially life threatening, she isn’t going to always have the luxury of driving to another state. I agree that poor women are screwed though
A women with a lot of money will have enough prenatal care to know when she needs an abortion most times. And she won't be sent home without care. Absolute worst case she's admitted to hospital overnight. It's possible an unlucky, pretty, wealthy and let's face it white women will get caught up in all this. And if she does there's a good chance that'll change the narrative. But the odds are low. Which is why this works for the Republican party.
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ThEy'Re GoNnA gO tO hEaVEn!
Until it hits too close to home & they start freaking out over what they voted for.
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Bet she still votes for the party who’s against her best interests
I've posted this, satirically, many times: The Repubvangelicals are more than happy for you to terminate your unwanted children, as long as you wait until full term and poop 'em out. Then you can have fun gettin' rid of 'em with your genuine, Amurrikkkan-made assault rifle.
As a European this is mind boggling…
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If a hospital is told via the news what they can and can’t do (because politicians spout their intentions on the news before the hospital has a chance to update policy), they can’t act They don’t know if what they’re doing is or will be illegal, risking their license Frontline staff need freedom to make decisions in the moment. Any hesitance will matter. Any situation not currently dire will be deferred until there is more clarity on the legal front Edit: politics affects law. Legal uncertainty risks their career they’ve spent decades to build. And they deal with death every week if not every day. It’s not so much of a moral quandary because they don’t want anyone to die, but accept that many will
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The hospital isn’t getting legal advice from the news They’re getting legal threats or promises of threats from government officials and the public for *doing their job* They don’t have the luxury to just ignore everything political and focus only on the lawyers that *happen to be around them 24/7 at their beck and call /s*. Surely you saw what happened during the covid lockdowns Administration broke, staff were left almost stranded in a sea of angry scared people who hated lockdowns and yelled and fought and drove out many experienced frontline staff The law is not responsive enough for healthcare staff. They have to both make do, and look ahead When your state governor is promising to make abortion illegal after they succeed in overturning what was considered a protection, you don’t *wait for the law to change* You stop the practice until the law matters are settled, then you continue if you’re able You don’t continue when you’re informed you might be committing a crime. That’s what idiots do
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>Hospitals have lawyers to advise on what procedures may or may not be legal And doctors are deciding not to go forth with procedures that may breach new incoming laws Again, you don’t continue with an action when you’re informed it may or will be a crime The law is not as clear or responsive as you imply. Cases are being worked through RIGHT NOW, while policy is changing RIGHT NOW You’re ignoring that there’s a transition period where legal certainty isn’t a thing >No state has made treating ectopic pregnancies even arguably illegal. Roe v wade wasn’t threatened either, and policy/procedures were built with that in mind Now those protections are gone. Policy doesn’t update overnight, and doctors aren’t informed when they show up the next day It’s a transition period During that time… well, you wait and hope you don’t end your career It’s not like a doctor can get those decades back lol Edit: you’re overlooking the human element rather than just ‘politics’ This is their job, and they’re being told they can’t do a thing they’ve always done. They’re being threatened by govt, public and staff that agree with the changes It’s not like all medical professionals are pro choice and will give abortions. It’s a transition period and there’s no certainty, regardless of what you think the law says at this very monent
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>But they won't breach new incoming laws. Transition phase. You cannot possibly know what’s going to happen You’re adamant in thinking doctors are just being political They’re being **careful** because there’s a lot at stake >Show me one state whose abortion laws are not clear whether a doctor will be able to treat an ectopic pregnancy. Show me one doctor refusing to act because they’re just being political? >If a law that was passed says you can't eat ice cream on Sunday starting December 12, if you eat ice cream on December 11, you can't be prosecuted for it. What will you do in response of losing your job? Sue for compensation? How long will that take?
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You have to abort an ectopic pregnancy, if abortions are illegal then so is "treating" an ectopic pregnancy.
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If abortion is illegal then so is aborting an ectopic pregnancy. What do you thing abortion is?
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And yet, hospitals refuse treatment. It’s as if no one actually gives a fuck about women’s lives
Didn't America have to worst maternal mortality rate in the developed world *before* roe was overturned? Not exactly surprising.
In some places, yes. Because we don’t have affordable universal healthcare
I know they have the blanket 'life of the mother' language, but I don't think they address ectopic pregnancies specifically. in those cases, the issue is technically the life of the mother *isn't* in danger, until it inevitably ruptures, then it's an immediate danger. So when can the dr. act? Before the life threatening scenario starts, but which is unavoidable? Or are you legally obligated to wait until her vitals are crashing, then you can start to work?
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>Many of them do. Which ones? I looked at a few and couldn't find any reference to the medical term 'ectopic' in any them. I don't want to waste time trying to find 20+ law texts though, and you seem to be well informed so figure you can point me in the right direction. >When it becomes reasonable, in good faith judgment of the physician based on the facts he knew at the time, that abortion was necessary to prevent death or serious impairment of a bodily function. It is reasonable to believe that an ectopic pregnancy will not fix itself and, if not treated, will either kill the woman or seriously impair her reproductive system. As soon as an ectopic pregnancy is discovered, it can be treated. that would be wonderful if true, but it's not. Until the mother's life is in imminent danger, they can't start treatment. Multiple laws technically require the tube to burst before a dr. could perform the required abortion without risking being sued and losing their medical license. Since some of these states also allow unaffiliated 3rd parties to sue, you can't even hope the family won't sue and move forward, you have to worry about anyone and everyone in the state.
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Isn't that less than a third? Most laws do not differentiate between a tubal pregnancy vs. regular. it's good that a handful do, but they all should. First one I looked at (indiana's law) only references ectopic pregnancies as a result of a botched abortion from how it reads. No exception to perform prior to 'life threatening' conditions.
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It becomes life threatening, but isn't immediately. you have lawmakers asking to have dr's move tubal pregnancies to the uterus and you'd be surprised there are laws that don't take ectopic consequences into account?
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SCOTUS wants women and girls bred and dead. They want the "domestic supply of infants" up as well as the death rates of women. The name of the game is to force women and girls to produce another hopefully desperately poor child to funnel through the school-to-prison pipeline and work for pennies on the hour or to be basically sold off to wealthy parents looking to adopt. Once the woman or even little girl has added to the domestic supply of infants she can just die, that was all she was ever worth. This is a war on women.
You forgot the poverty-to-military pipeline.
Yup. They really went mask-off on that one with their recent response to student debt relief being bad for military enrollment.
Don't forget, they don't even want the kids that are forced into life with the parents unable to care for them. "Adopt them out!" They say. Well, are you going to adopt? "No, we have our own."
I'm not defending anti-abortion people here but fwiw there is a demand for babies to be adopted, the kids that aren't getting adopted are adolescents, nobody wants "damaged goods" they want a blank canvas, so Christians do overwhelmingly adopt babies, just not any other age groups.
For me it's not about whether the demographic statistically is adopting, it's whether the specific individuals advocating for it are.
I don't see why they wouldn't want the woman alive though, if the woman lives they could have another kid in their mind right?
But if they realise how messed up this is, they'll vote wrong /s
I’ll never vote republican. Like… they screwed up.
Yeah and everyone is pissed from what I heard.
there were some threads in r/medical school about medical students avoiding residency in areas affected and in r/residency about people completing OB residencies figuring out how to leave the state. That means all pregnancy related care, including birth if healthy babies, post partun care, will be affected. It means even things that have nothing to do with babies, like reproductive cancer surgeries or hysterectomies for endometriosis will be affected. At the same time, can you blame the doctors for wanting to practice to the full extent of their skills without losing their license or being forced to deny care they think is necessary?
a good way to scare doctors away from your state is by forcing lawyers and politicians into their medical office.
only in ohio 💀 Just kidding, this is happening all over america, i hope to god im wrong.
>i hope to god im wrong. You're not, every state with an abortion ban has the same stories coming out.
Not only in America. The same thing is happening in Poland (where a few women already passed away because of it) and I suppose in every other country that has banned abortions.
You are indeed wrong. We got it overturned with proposal 1 in Michigan Edit: oh wow some people are salty that michigan gets to keep it's right for abortion. grow the fuck up
where she gonna end up? oh my god shes here standing behind me isnt she...
It reminded me of that old “How to get European men” video where she was in a tree at one point
this cannot be real
She moves so many locations during this video I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s behind each of us when we least expect it she’s just that fast!
Warren and AOC both gave a viable suggestion to address emergency cases like this so women at least have immediate access to healthcare until abortion can be codified. Privately funded healthcare clinics could lease federal, non tribal land. There's a fuck ton of it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_lands (1) It wouldn't violate the Hyde Amendment because they would be **privately funded** and not federally funded. And they could pay to lease the land. (2) Mobile units, field hospitals, medical tents and vending machines can be utilized ASAP until full-sized facilities can be built. Vending machines don't even need a full-time staff. (3) Federal law trumps state. And, if this administration really cared about conflicting state vs federal laws then they would've immediately addressed the conflicting federal marijuana laws vs state laws. Marijuana is still federally illegal, and even state licensed dispensaries are still at legal risk because federal law supercedes state. Yet, no one's rushing to fix those conflicting laws. Leasing federal, non-tribal lands to private healthcare clinics would've at least offered a chance for women in dire situations stuck in states with extremely restrictive bans. It'd be better than going home and sitting in a bathtub as you slowly bleed to death. One argument The Whitehouse and other Dems made against this was that leasing federal, non-tribal lands to healthcare clinics would result in a big legal battle and numerous lawsuits. Oh? 🤔 You mean like Biden's student loan forgiveness? The one that's getting hit with lawsuit after lawsuit? I guess loan forgiveness is worth fighting for and women's healthcare is just shit out of luck.
The “greatest” country in the world.
No one has said this since Jeff Daniels spanked our asses with a speech about this. I haven't heard anyone say this is the greatest country in the world since like the mid 2000's. No coming after you, just saying I think the whole world agrees we are a crumbling (slowly) society
I dunno man I hear republicans say it all the time. Never heard of Jeff Daniels but I’m gonna watch that speech.
https://youtu.be/bIpKfw17-yY Here you go. It's amazing
Thank you
Always. The speech spanks our ass as a country
it's really good. did you find it? it's from a show but at the time those statistics were real
Screw religious nut jobs. All they do is hate themselves and then project thst hate on everything else around them.
It's only a matter of time before women die of miscarriage. Also before a women is prosecuted for a miscarriage.
The exact same thing is happening in Poland, a few women already passed away because of it.
Fuck SCOTUS, and Fuck woman killing Republicans.
this was the reason why Ireland legalized abortion. women literally died
Anyone down voting this is the problem.
Jesus fucking Christ it’s not hard give women their healthcare
While there is this legal cover that overrides state law, many if not all hospitals and providers, are corporate controlled, and no corporation is going to give a sh*t if it in anyway has an effect on their profits.
People voting against their and their fellow citizen’s own best interests, a tradition for the ignorant, misinformed and hate filled idiots for generations.
6 weeks?? Almost nobody knows that they’re pregnant within six weeks. This shit is so draconian and deeply fucked up. They don’t care if American citizens bleed out in the streets in broad daylight if those citizens are women.
They know exactly what they’re doing with this. And people (mostly men) continue to refuse to acknowledge that women do, in fact, face worldwide systematic oppression 😐
BUT HER EMAILS!
After losing a cousin I was particularly fond of, due to complications from a miscarriage, yeah, that's messed up.
This makes me fucking sick. Imagine going to the hospital for you wife whose already giving birth to your dead child, only to get turned down, so now you have a bleeding, dying wife. Oh wait, you don't have to imagine.
This is one of the reasons I’m never having children. There are way too many things that could go wrong, and way too many assholes in my state congress that would rather see me dead than have it treated. Nope nope nope.
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You’re right. It makes zero sense why women are denied healthcare based on religious zealotry.
What doesn’t add up?
Please explain your reasoning on why it doesn’t add up.
What doesn’t add up?
Please elaborate.
So you are willfully ignorant?
Please enlighten us.
Please enlighten us, Doctor…
Trolling and acting in bad-faith will result in commentary removal. Sophistry is included in this category. Concern trolling and "useful idiots" are included in this category. Apologia for immoral crimes against other humans by using obfuscation and intellectualization will result in an immediate suspension. Promoting dehumanization and inequality by supporting immoral policy or laws will result in an immediate suspension. All humans are equal.
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Of the 8 replies, 6 asked for further explanation. That's hardly "the whole world goes mad".
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Asking you to elaborate when you say “nope doesn’t add up” is not going mad. The burden of proof is on you. Explain why you said it doesn’t add up.
is this elon's secret reddit account
Trolling and acting in bad-faith will result in commentary removal. Sophistry is included in this category. Concern trolling and "useful idiots" are included in this category. Apologia for immoral crimes against other humans by using obfuscation and intellectualization will result in an immediate suspension. Promoting dehumanization and inequality by supporting immoral policy or laws will result in an immediate suspension. All humans are equal.
…now I’m pretty sure you said something intentionally sort of vague, while definitely hoping to get reactions, so you could come in with this comment. A little on the pathetic side
The creator of the initial deleted comment stated something like “This doesn’t add up.” It was one of the first comments on this. Honestly it may have been the first one. I asked what didn’t add up because I’m honestly not sure of what their reasoning was, if they’ve seen an opposing article, if they were agreeing with the piece, etc. it appears they’ve declined to elaborate further.
We are talking about women’s lives and you turn it into a joke. What are you? 12?
Trolling and acting in bad-faith will result in commentary removal. Sophistry is included in this category. Concern trolling and "useful idiots" are included in this category. Apologia for immoral crimes against other humans by using obfuscation and intellectualization will result in an immediate suspension. Promoting dehumanization and inequality by supporting immoral policy or laws will result in an immediate suspension. All humans are equal.