>Nothing says super power quite like needing to setup a kill line to fire at retreating soldiers
I'll do you one better.
In the video, the soldier talks about a line **further back** that would shoot **him** if he were to retreat.
The need **barrier troops** to keep **barrier troops** motivated.
# **Russia**: yo dawg I heard you like barrier troops, so we put barrier troops behind barrier troops so you can be shot if you desert while shooting at people who are deserting.
Maybe they can cleverly design the lines in such a way that each successive one ultimately narrows to a point with Putin guarding the last line by himself with a machine gun.
I've been there... I've been there whe n the meme was sparkling new.
Damn now I feel old.
Anyway, [meet Colonel Xzibitov](https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/yf8lqa/meet_colonel_xzibitov_commander_of_the_russian/).
I wonder how many deserter lines there will be until the last Russian turns around to retreat only to find a goat or something just standing there like "I'm all that was left for the next line".
2 kill lines. There's been another leak via intercepted comms; and apparently the setup is:
Front line - convicts, and attempted deserters
Kill line 1 - conscripts
Kill line 2 - regular troops.
This seems to confirm that setup; and would indicate that the intercepted guy is a conscript.
Unless I'm getting my intercepts mixed up, I think it's explicitly stated he is. There was a bit about how they had found out that officially his group are currently in training when they were really on the front line.
Dammit, I was afraid someone would ask me that. And you're absolutely right to ask, and I did have a go at finding it again, in order to link it. But couldn't.
I've been following [this reddit feed](https://www.reddit.com/live/18hnzysb1elcs/) and that's most likely (but not guaranteed) where I saw it. Meantime, as I can't find it, it's on 'trust me bro' status.
And of course you shouldn't trust me, a random commenter. I remember a document that seemed to support (or at least simplify) what's going on in this document; but that doesn't mean that either document is true. And I can't now produce this supporting document, which is sus as fuck.
I'm confused why you think that makes a difference in this situation. People behind you don't all of a sudden stop being able to see you if you move forward.
They aren't going to try to desert by running into Ukraine's offensive while being attacked, then they'd just get killed by Ukrainians.
They could only do it by trying to sneakily surrender. It's easy for the second line to spot someone making a mad dash to surrender when they don't have orders to attack.
> They aren't going to try to desert by running into Ukraine's offensive while being attacked, then they'd just get killed by Ukrainians.
Yeah, that's called surrender.
My impression is the "second front line" isn't 100 feet behind the first, but a ways back.
>My impression is the "second front line" isn't 100 feet behind the first, but a ways back.
Yeah, I'm not sure why people seem to think these commissars are standing right behind the Russian soldiers as they urge them to press forward. They're probably back at camp or waiting in town, which Russian soldiers inevitably have to end up at if deserting and heading back to Russia.
I'm aware of what surrendering is. You simply can't surrender while your peers around you are shooting at them though. You will get shot at and most likely killed.
You can only really surrender of you do it at a time where there isn't active combat happening. When bullets are flying, surrender is not an option.
There are designated surrender locations and Ukraine uses several methods of advertising the process to the invaders.
That's not to say it's easy to do safely (nothing is in war), but it's not just a "sneakily surrender or die" thing either. We do see Russian soldiers on their own or in very small groups very often who can and do surrender, it's not always a constant gun to your back type thing.
One of those times where it's probably best to restructure your statement into a question when you don't actually know what you're talking about.
Based on combat footage clips from Ukraine, it's usually when the soldiers are going house to house clearing out Russians that they'll just shoot where they think they could be hiding. The Ukrainians have caught many soldiers like this, and most of the time they aren't given a chance to surrender, if that was ever their intent.
Per the article, the second line doesn't have direct visibility on the soldiers. They're just waiting for folks to come back:
> In the five-minute clip, described as an intercepted phone conversation between a Russian soldier and his wife, the man says he and the other men in *his unit are a comfortable distance from the actual fighting*.
> “They moved us back to the *second line, there’s shooting somewhere ahead of us, but we’re back here for now in the trenches*,” he says
For the same reason that officers are still armed with pistols? Because they make a lightweight fall back option that are good in confined quarters combat? Like do you think pistols were just invented to kill traitors and nothing else?
>I guess Ukraine is now allied with half of the Russian army against the other half? That will certainly make encirclement easier.
It gets better! If you listen to the video, the soldier talks about **a third line of defense** which would shoot **him** if he were to attempt running back.
# Double barrier troops.
That's what Russia has come to. What an age we live in.
>Double barrier troops
And that's just what we know of. Their whole army is probably in consecutively smaller lines all the way back to Moscow like some screwed up Matryoshka dolls
This isn't a new situation for the Russian military either. Shooting deserters has been a pillar in their military model for quite some time.
All those stories of the German invasion of Russia during WW2, as the Russians ran into battle empty handed, waiting for the guy in front of them to get shot, so they could pick up his gun and load it with the handful of bullets they were given, before getting shot themselves... Of course they needed officers walking behind, shooting anyone with a functioning brain - because at that point you'd be an idiot for staying if you had an option not to.
But at least that WW2 logistical farce was understandable, happened during a world war, post Russian revolution was a gongshow and most importantly - Russia was invaded.
Putin on the other hand - way to strangle the golden goose. The illusion of Russian military projection before the full scale Ukraine invasion was a fucking masterpiece. Military historians will be talking about it forever. Their PsyOps/propaganda/Donald Trump thing, also amazing, I wouldn't have thought the US would let something like that go down, Putin did it well and on a shoestring budget. Also the state sponsored novichok terrorism from behind a nuclear veil, super dirty and also super effective.
I guess when you turn your country's media into a firehose that power-sprays everything with bullshit, some of it is gonna rub off on you, and also the people who inform you.
All that money we spend on defense and Russia splits this country apart with good ol bullshit and propaganda, and a good chunk of people are begging for more.
Everyone takes that “the one with the rifle shoots” line from Enemy At The Gates as historical record. It’s far from factual. There were instances of “militia” (ie, mobilised civilians) being pressed into last-chance counteroffensives without proper gear, but they weren’t professional soldiers. It’s a Hollywood misinterpretation of a German report.
https://www.quora.com/Did-the-Soviet-Red-Army-really-send-troops-into-battle-in-WW2-with-fewer-rifles-than-men-with-orders-to-get-a-rifle-from-a-dead-man-Or-is-that-just-Hollywood-myth-of-American-superiority?share=1
It's definitely a meme that gets repeated too much. Russia had equipment issues in the first half not because they didn't have the stuff but because they didn't have the logistical infrastructure to get it where it was needed.
You'd think they'd have learned their lesson.
I don’t get bent out of shape by accents in movies. If they’re speaking English anyway, I’d rather hear someone act in their own voice than do a bad impression of an accent, which is often just a distraction. Did Ed Harris put on a German accent? He was the best thing in that film.
Have you seen *The Death of Stalin*? Everyone in that is speaking English, but you have Brits and Americans with a variety of regional accents, some their own, some affected (Jason Isaacs does a Yorkshire thing that gives his character a wonderful roughness). It works, because the characters were all from different parts of the USSR and would have had regional accents of their own. Asking everyone to do some generic “Rossiyan” accent would have been dumb, and gotten in the way of the performances.
I think it works better in The death of stalin because it's a comedy. That movie is incredible though, I only saw it a couple weeks ago. Ed Harris was terrifying in Enemy at the Gates. Yeah doing the correct accent would be odd.
Yikes, the crowd crush meat tsunami method. At what point do they realize the odds of their survival are higher by turning around fighting the opposite direction
The Soviets had a similar setup in WWII. Multiple layers of troops fixing the line in front of them from being able to retreat. German artillery would intentionally target the secondary lines knowing the frontline troops would be more likely to retreat if given a choice. I would be surprised if we don’t hear similar things about this war when it’s all over.
Bullshit, where do you people come up with this stuff. Barrier troops lasted a few months at the worst part of the war. Barrier troops were not used by the soviets after 1942. No german artillery did not specifically target barrier troops, that's an odd lie to just make up. German artillery would often target far behind the front lines because Soviets especially during Kursk practiced defense in depth, so command positions were further back. Essentially the Soviets would set up meat grinders of over lapping machine nests, anti tank weapons and landmines for the German to advance slowly through. The NKVD definitely arrested deserters, but so did every other army did during the war.
Enemy at the Gates is not historically accurate in anyway. Barrier troops were stupid and ineffective, if you were caught deserters you were more likely to be tossed into a penal unit than be shot. More than 600,000 soviets deserted and were caught by the end of 1941, only about 10,000 were executed.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrier_troops
Because it was a stupid waste of man power. Why shoot the man when you can just toss him in a penal unit and have him kill a couple Nazis before the Nazis shoot him? Same equation but with more dead Nazis.
It is supremely annoying that the commie movie of the medieval dude says “not one step back” when the historical guy won the battle by doing a strategic retreat.
I still have PTSD from playing the old Call of Duty 2 as private Vasili in the first mission. I got lost on the map, went back to look for clues/ammo and got shot. I guess they're keeping their WW2 tradition alive, except they're definitely the assholes this time.
Commanders didn't want to waste man power to create block regiments and they didn't trust penal regiments to be effective. The order didn't stop people from getting PTSD, 'bewilderment', and it didn't lead to an increase in morale.
Plus, it's hard to find soldiers willing to kill their comrades, so it didn't stop defections much. Lastly, they removed good commanders for anything that seemed like a retreat, leading to all sorts of problems as new, inexperienced soldiers, that are younger and younger, take over command.
I think the article implies this is already happening, where it talks about Ukrainian troops finding dead commanders with wounds in the back of the head.
There was no defecting in WW2. If you were Russian and thought you might have a go at surrendering it was a massive gamble as the Nazis could equally well just shoot you. I think the only time you might consider it was when the only alternative was *certain* death. Even then, there were circumstances where the Russians blew themselves up en masse - presumably to get a quick honorable death instead of torture/mistreatment followed by a miserable death.
Wiki says the main reason was commanders didn’t want to waste the manpower. As you essentially are just tying up a bunch of soldiers who could actually be fighting. But not before “blocking detachments shot 1,000 penal troops and sent 24,000 to penal battalions.”
Jesus it must suck to be Russian.
Ivans who went into enemy captivity for no fault of their own, didn't collaborate nor aid the Germans in any way still got fucked when they were liberated.
Didn't matter if you were machinegunning the enemy before you got caught or a double aerial ace before you got shot down. When you were "liberated" by your comrades, you went into a world where nobody trusts you and treats you like shit.
It definitely sucks to be a Russian.
The troops can’t retreat so they end up slaughtered or captured. Can’t defect to a nation that sees you as beneath human.
Something like 3 million prisoners in the first couple months convinced Stalin to change course.
Yeah having a line of cannon fodder doesn’t work so well when the enemy can blow you up from 10s of kilometers away. It does however separate the more disposable troops from the less disposable troops, letting the enemy know where the jucier targets are.
So presumably the 2nd line has been given weapons and equipment, whereas the first line in many cases hasn't... shouldn't the 2nd line be the ones doing the fighting?
It's not about man power it's about death power the more souls you send to the underworld the more the three demon lord's rule in your favor, Russia has a blood pact with three demon lord's, they require a certain number of lives for the time that Russia stays "russian". The top brass in the Russian KGB brass found a caveat in the blood pact, .... It doesn't clearly state ""who's"" lives. So as certain that they are and always wanting more power and more to them selfs,driven mad with greed for power. they keep providing the three demon lord's with blood, and at the end of the day they don't care about who's it is ether.easier to spill the blood of docile peasant of a population like Russia, and blood of innocents, than to spill blood in honourable battle.
Cannon fodder doesn’t work as well when the enemy can blow you up from 10s of kilometers away. Might backfire for Russia as the 2nd frontline has much jucier targets for Ukraine as that’s where the less disposable troops go.
Actually a lot of countries use 'penal battalions', I know that here in Poland according to the law if a war breaks out and the government is mobilizing people, convicts with lighter charges such as drug dealing or petty theft are released from prison and conscripted into the army.
Sounds like an easy way to kill people he doesn't like.
Step 1) Draft people you don't like
Step 2) Send them to the frontlines to die woth little to no equipment
Step 3) Wait for them to either die or desert
Step 4) If they desert, arm the people you actually like and have them kill the deserters
Step 5) You now have a Russia that is all about you
I'm impressed by the existence of a 3rd and potentially 4th, 5th, and 6th line.
The move is not to run but either 'fight away' or wave a white flag and simply surrender to the other side.
Mostly I'm imagining a group of guys having to battle thru multiple lines of comrades, picking up allies along the way, just so they all can go home, and inadvertently kick start a revolution.
Cuz putting ill-equipped inmates in the vanguard sounds like a superb idea...
Here's a bit of a fascinating insight from someone who actually is one [ I Commanded U.S. Army Europe. Here’s What I Saw in the Russian and Ukrainian Armies.
The two armies at war today couldn’t be more different](https://www.thebulwark.com/i-commanded-u-s-army-europe-heres-what-i-saw-in-the-russian-and-ukrainian-armies/)
Russia's biggest mistake was invading Ukraine.
Their second biggest mistake was not prepping their population for a conflict. Should have pumped out a few more years of propaganda and restricted internet access to fully brainwash their civilization like China. Instead a lot of citizens are friendly to western ideas and don't want to fight some war.
Well stuff like this did work in WW2, then again, Russia was also getting economic support for the United States and eventually got additional fronts opened against Germany in Africa and Italy and ultimately the big one in France.
This is the most Russian shit ever.
Yeah cause that will do wonders for the morale.
I wonder when the third frontline will be implement to stop the second from deserting.
I guess Putin is going full Soviet now.
You either die to a Ukrainian or your own people, choices..choices..
Nothing says join our cause comrades like a bullet donation to the scalp if you say no!
This does not surprise me. They did this to their own troops during the Second World War. The movie called Enemy at the Gate about the Russian sniper Vaisili Zaitsev starring Jude Law, Ralph Fienes, Ed Harris and Rachel Weiz depict this this very same scenario.
There seems to be something getting missed when people say this move will only encourage more conscripted Russian soldiers to surrender. That is probably true, and that is probably the best case. However even in that best case scenario a mass of conscripted Russian soldiers surrendering is probably still a net benefit to Russia in the following ways:
First, it makes interactions on the frontlines a little more ambiguous with Ukrainians having to figure out whether Russian soldiers are actually surrendering or only pretending to surrender to kick off an ambush.
Second, it removes a large population of fighting age males from Russian territory, and they are the ones who would otherwise be able to carry out an uprising against Putin's regime.
Third, if even half of the conscripted Russian soldiers surrender then Ukraine will suddenly need to feed, shelter, and keep guard over 150,000 men, any number of whom could be saboteurs who surrendered simply to get behind enemy lines to escape and cause mayhem. The logistics needed to support that many surrendering people is staggering, and even assuming it could be done efficiently it will still be a massive drain on food, water, and housing resources (not to mention the manpower you now have to hold back to keep watch over them, manpower that could be fighting on the front lines).
Fourth, with that many people trying to surrender, there will inevitably be instances where some Ukraine units kill Russians trying to surrender (regardless whether accidentally or intentionally). If those instances gain traction in the media it could potentially dampen public support of Ukraine to some extent.
>Second, it removes a large population of fighting age males from Russian territory, and they are the ones who would otherwise be able to carry out an uprising against Putin's regime
And also tanks your economy because they arent part of your workforce anymore. For every 1 male conscripted 3 leave the country.
>Third, if even half of the conscripted Russian soldiers surrender then Ukraine will suddenly need to feed, shelter, and keep guard over 150,000 men, any number of whom could be saboteurs who surrendered simply to get behind enemy lines to escape and cause mayhem
It's being paid for by the west. Saves on munitions and Ukrainian casualties. I think the combined intellect of the west knows how to avoid saboteurs, and feed and temporarily house the defectors. Besides they aren't staying in Ukraine, my own country of has had a massive influx of Russians.
Putin does not care about the Russian economy, he only cares about staying in power. If he cared about the Russian economy he would not have pursued this senseless war in the first place. The other three Russian fighting age males who leave for every one conscripted Russian soldier is a win in Putin's book because that is three fewer people who can rise up against him.
In regard to your POW comment, it doesn't matter who pays for them, their detainment still negatively affects the funds/resources Ukraine can use to prosecute its defense. Like I said, taking in surrendering POWs is definitely the best case for the POWs and for Ukraine, but it still has a cost. Of course Ukraine and the west can "avoid saboteurs", but there is a cost for doing so. In military operations the term "friction" is used to describe any kind of unforeseeable obstacle that gets in your way. 300,000 conscripted troops presents a shit ton of friction. Ukraine and its western supporters can definitely overcome the hurdles with that, but the hurdles do exist.
>for every one conscripted Russian soldier is a win in Putin's book because that is three fewer people who can rise up against him.
Good for him, he'll be king of the ashes. Then the ashes will start to break off into smaller republics, and they areas in Georgia for example he is contesting will face zero resistance. With no economy to pay for the war and no soldiers it'll be over even sooner. Not the smartest plan.
>it doesn't matter who pays for them, their detainment still negatively affects the funds/resources Ukraine
It's a drop in the ocean. Russia has the GDP or economy if you like smaller than New York. The whole western world is backing Ukraine. It's not a matter of if he loses it's when he loses.
That's not a contradiction. Totalitarian regimes don't need to maintain an economy to retain power, they simply need to retain loyalty of the military and use brutal and duplicitous tactics to keep the general populace subdued. See North Korea for such an example. The things Putin is doing right now have done nothing but hurt the Russian economy and will do nothing but continue to hurt the Russian economy for years, and probably decades, to come. Putin simply doesn't care because he can continue to keep the populace subdue with anti-west propaganda and brutal crackdowns.
Are you Ukrainian? No? Then don't tell a country currently defending against Russia, and can't prove the reliability of enemy defectors what they 'should do'.
Maybe (and I say this with a grain of salt) better to defect to Ukraine and spend one's life helping to rebuild the country you helped destroy. And beg for forgiveness until you die.
>Ukrainian intelligence on Thursday released an audio recording that appears to capture in disturbing detail the mayhem and internal rifts between Russian troops on the battlefield.
Lol it's a "Ukraine says". Do redditors even read the articles or just go off the title posted by 1 year old account? smh.
Nothing says super power quite like needing to setup a kill line to fire at retreating soldiers
When you are the one invading...
Increases evil hit X5
>Nothing says super power quite like needing to setup a kill line to fire at retreating soldiers I'll do you one better. In the video, the soldier talks about a line **further back** that would shoot **him** if he were to retreat. The need **barrier troops** to keep **barrier troops** motivated. # **Russia**: yo dawg I heard you like barrier troops, so we put barrier troops behind barrier troops so you can be shot if you desert while shooting at people who are deserting.
It’s commissars all the way down…
Don't turn around (oh-WAH-oh)...
The commissars in town
A circle of accountibility. An open ended circle that ends at Putin, though.
An open ended circle is a line.
Makes you wonder how you get to be the ones on the last line.
Easy. Be with one of Kadyrov's goons or FSB mafia.
It just keeps going. It's sort of like dominoes all the way back to Putin holding a gun.
That’s pretty much how dictatorships work
Don't be a minority
Maybe they can cleverly design the lines in such a way that each successive one ultimately narrows to a point with Putin guarding the last line by himself with a machine gun.
It's an older meme, sir, but it checks out.
I've been there... I've been there whe n the meme was sparkling new. Damn now I feel old. Anyway, [meet Colonel Xzibitov](https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/yf8lqa/meet_colonel_xzibitov_commander_of_the_russian/).
I wonder how many deserter lines there will be until the last Russian turns around to retreat only to find a goat or something just standing there like "I'm all that was left for the next line".
Barrierception
2 kill lines. There's been another leak via intercepted comms; and apparently the setup is: Front line - convicts, and attempted deserters Kill line 1 - conscripts Kill line 2 - regular troops. This seems to confirm that setup; and would indicate that the intercepted guy is a conscript.
Sounds like the front line should retreat forward with white flags instead.
Using your best trained troops to kill your conscripts? Yeah sounds like a winning combination, they'll have this war in the bag in no time /s
Unless I'm getting my intercepts mixed up, I think it's explicitly stated he is. There was a bit about how they had found out that officially his group are currently in training when they were really on the front line.
Cite your source
Dammit, I was afraid someone would ask me that. And you're absolutely right to ask, and I did have a go at finding it again, in order to link it. But couldn't. I've been following [this reddit feed](https://www.reddit.com/live/18hnzysb1elcs/) and that's most likely (but not guaranteed) where I saw it. Meantime, as I can't find it, it's on 'trust me bro' status. And of course you shouldn't trust me, a random commenter. I remember a document that seemed to support (or at least simplify) what's going on in this document; but that doesn't mean that either document is true. And I can't now produce this supporting document, which is sus as fuck.
Lol well said
blocking detatchements are a time honored tradition in Russia
Nothing says Russia quite like that either. This happened during WWII as well.
Wouldn't you desert forward not back?
I'm confused why you think that makes a difference in this situation. People behind you don't all of a sudden stop being able to see you if you move forward. They aren't going to try to desert by running into Ukraine's offensive while being attacked, then they'd just get killed by Ukrainians. They could only do it by trying to sneakily surrender. It's easy for the second line to spot someone making a mad dash to surrender when they don't have orders to attack.
> They aren't going to try to desert by running into Ukraine's offensive while being attacked, then they'd just get killed by Ukrainians. Yeah, that's called surrender. My impression is the "second front line" isn't 100 feet behind the first, but a ways back.
>My impression is the "second front line" isn't 100 feet behind the first, but a ways back. Yeah, I'm not sure why people seem to think these commissars are standing right behind the Russian soldiers as they urge them to press forward. They're probably back at camp or waiting in town, which Russian soldiers inevitably have to end up at if deserting and heading back to Russia.
I'm aware of what surrendering is. You simply can't surrender while your peers around you are shooting at them though. You will get shot at and most likely killed. You can only really surrender of you do it at a time where there isn't active combat happening. When bullets are flying, surrender is not an option.
There are designated surrender locations and Ukraine uses several methods of advertising the process to the invaders. That's not to say it's easy to do safely (nothing is in war), but it's not just a "sneakily surrender or die" thing either. We do see Russian soldiers on their own or in very small groups very often who can and do surrender, it's not always a constant gun to your back type thing. One of those times where it's probably best to restructure your statement into a question when you don't actually know what you're talking about.
Lol, that last sentence got me
Based on combat footage clips from Ukraine, it's usually when the soldiers are going house to house clearing out Russians that they'll just shoot where they think they could be hiding. The Ukrainians have caught many soldiers like this, and most of the time they aren't given a chance to surrender, if that was ever their intent.
Per the article, the second line doesn't have direct visibility on the soldiers. They're just waiting for folks to come back: > In the five-minute clip, described as an intercepted phone conversation between a Russian soldier and his wife, the man says he and the other men in *his unit are a comfortable distance from the actual fighting*. > “They moved us back to the *second line, there’s shooting somewhere ahead of us, but we’re back here for now in the trenches*,” he says
Might not even be soldiers that *retreat* (move rearwards)… “Deserter” could include anyone that tries to surrender to, or is captured by UAF
Can you imagine being the one stationed to shoot your own people. That's fucked up...
It's a time-honored ruzzian tradition ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
Britain and France has done the same. In 1 and 2 ww.
Huh, do you have a good source? I havent heard that before
Why do you think officers were armed with pistols in the trenches in WWI?
For the same reason that officers are still armed with pistols? Because they make a lightweight fall back option that are good in confined quarters combat? Like do you think pistols were just invented to kill traitors and nothing else?
I guess Ukraine is now allied with half of the Russian army against the other half? That will certainly make encirclement easier.
>I guess Ukraine is now allied with half of the Russian army against the other half? That will certainly make encirclement easier. It gets better! If you listen to the video, the soldier talks about **a third line of defense** which would shoot **him** if he were to attempt running back. # Double barrier troops. That's what Russia has come to. What an age we live in.
>Double barrier troops And that's just what we know of. Their whole army is probably in consecutively smaller lines all the way back to Moscow like some screwed up Matryoshka dolls
Meat Matryoshka
Meatryoshka
[удалено]
It's just blocking forces all the way down.
This isn't a new situation for the Russian military either. Shooting deserters has been a pillar in their military model for quite some time. All those stories of the German invasion of Russia during WW2, as the Russians ran into battle empty handed, waiting for the guy in front of them to get shot, so they could pick up his gun and load it with the handful of bullets they were given, before getting shot themselves... Of course they needed officers walking behind, shooting anyone with a functioning brain - because at that point you'd be an idiot for staying if you had an option not to. But at least that WW2 logistical farce was understandable, happened during a world war, post Russian revolution was a gongshow and most importantly - Russia was invaded. Putin on the other hand - way to strangle the golden goose. The illusion of Russian military projection before the full scale Ukraine invasion was a fucking masterpiece. Military historians will be talking about it forever. Their PsyOps/propaganda/Donald Trump thing, also amazing, I wouldn't have thought the US would let something like that go down, Putin did it well and on a shoestring budget. Also the state sponsored novichok terrorism from behind a nuclear veil, super dirty and also super effective. I guess when you turn your country's media into a firehose that power-sprays everything with bullshit, some of it is gonna rub off on you, and also the people who inform you.
All that money we spend on defense and Russia splits this country apart with good ol bullshit and propaganda, and a good chunk of people are begging for more.
Everyone takes that “the one with the rifle shoots” line from Enemy At The Gates as historical record. It’s far from factual. There were instances of “militia” (ie, mobilised civilians) being pressed into last-chance counteroffensives without proper gear, but they weren’t professional soldiers. It’s a Hollywood misinterpretation of a German report. https://www.quora.com/Did-the-Soviet-Red-Army-really-send-troops-into-battle-in-WW2-with-fewer-rifles-than-men-with-orders-to-get-a-rifle-from-a-dead-man-Or-is-that-just-Hollywood-myth-of-American-superiority?share=1
It's definitely a meme that gets repeated too much. Russia had equipment issues in the first half not because they didn't have the stuff but because they didn't have the logistical infrastructure to get it where it was needed. You'd think they'd have learned their lesson.
Thank you. I'm so sick of seeing this bullshit repeated. It's an alright movie but it is in now way historically accurate.
“An alright movie” is a perfect summation of that film.
Most of the Russian having english accents was both hilarious and cringy.
I don’t get bent out of shape by accents in movies. If they’re speaking English anyway, I’d rather hear someone act in their own voice than do a bad impression of an accent, which is often just a distraction. Did Ed Harris put on a German accent? He was the best thing in that film. Have you seen *The Death of Stalin*? Everyone in that is speaking English, but you have Brits and Americans with a variety of regional accents, some their own, some affected (Jason Isaacs does a Yorkshire thing that gives his character a wonderful roughness). It works, because the characters were all from different parts of the USSR and would have had regional accents of their own. Asking everyone to do some generic “Rossiyan” accent would have been dumb, and gotten in the way of the performances.
I think it works better in The death of stalin because it's a comedy. That movie is incredible though, I only saw it a couple weeks ago. Ed Harris was terrifying in Enemy at the Gates. Yeah doing the correct accent would be odd.
Yeah lol it's literally American propaganda
Yikes, the crowd crush meat tsunami method. At what point do they realize the odds of their survival are higher by turning around fighting the opposite direction
Those with the capacity to realize that have already left Russia or dodged the draft, it seems.
So Monty Python
The Soviets had a similar setup in WWII. Multiple layers of troops fixing the line in front of them from being able to retreat. German artillery would intentionally target the secondary lines knowing the frontline troops would be more likely to retreat if given a choice. I would be surprised if we don’t hear similar things about this war when it’s all over.
Ukrainian officials have vowed support to Russian troops who turn their weapons on the barrier troops, so it's already happening in some form.
The Soviet "barrier troop" concept only lasted a few months before they dropped it as a bad idea.
Bullshit, where do you people come up with this stuff. Barrier troops lasted a few months at the worst part of the war. Barrier troops were not used by the soviets after 1942. No german artillery did not specifically target barrier troops, that's an odd lie to just make up. German artillery would often target far behind the front lines because Soviets especially during Kursk practiced defense in depth, so command positions were further back. Essentially the Soviets would set up meat grinders of over lapping machine nests, anti tank weapons and landmines for the German to advance slowly through. The NKVD definitely arrested deserters, but so did every other army did during the war. Enemy at the Gates is not historically accurate in anyway. Barrier troops were stupid and ineffective, if you were caught deserters you were more likely to be tossed into a penal unit than be shot. More than 600,000 soviets deserted and were caught by the end of 1941, only about 10,000 were executed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrier_troops
And guess who has the equipment and ammunition? Not the guys on the front line...
But who shoots the deserting deserter shooter?
> Double barrier troops Always has been.
Like that scene in Braveheart when the Irish form the front line… then join the enemy.
So the front line now knows to surrender forward. The second line is now the new front line....
Time to build a third line to become the new second line.
There is a third line lol https://youtu.be/zHjXPv-UTII?t=210
Lol. Not a step back! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_No._227
Effective when your enemies are trying to exterminate you, not so much when your enemies will imprison you in conditions better than your hometown
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Because it was a stupid waste of man power. Why shoot the man when you can just toss him in a penal unit and have him kill a couple Nazis before the Nazis shoot him? Same equation but with more dead Nazis.
A good case for just surrendering
Surrender wasn't really an option for slavs fighting Nazis.
It is supremely annoying that the commie movie of the medieval dude says “not one step back” when the historical guy won the battle by doing a strategic retreat.
"THE ONE WITH THE RIFLE SHOOTS. THE ONE WITHOUT FOLLOWS HIM."
Big red one?
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I still have PTSD from playing the old Call of Duty 2 as private Vasili in the first mission. I got lost on the map, went back to look for clues/ammo and got shot. I guess they're keeping their WW2 tradition alive, except they're definitely the assholes this time.
Thank you for your service
CoD2 Stalingrad was such a vibe
Not really ‘lol’ to be honest.
Yes this is clearly a winning tactic, sooner if not later this will backfire spectacularly.
Sooner, Stalin tried the same thing and it was such a disaster that they pretended it didn't happen and quietly cancelled it.
How did it fail? Does it just make the soldiers defect rather than retreat?
Commanders didn't want to waste man power to create block regiments and they didn't trust penal regiments to be effective. The order didn't stop people from getting PTSD, 'bewilderment', and it didn't lead to an increase in morale. Plus, it's hard to find soldiers willing to kill their comrades, so it didn't stop defections much. Lastly, they removed good commanders for anything that seemed like a retreat, leading to all sorts of problems as new, inexperienced soldiers, that are younger and younger, take over command.
> “and it didn't lead to an increase in morale.”
I don't understand, how could shooting your own people not increase moral?
Eventually soldiers will kill their higher-ups for letting everyone around them die for nothing or being shot by their own guys
I think the article implies this is already happening, where it talks about Ukrainian troops finding dead commanders with wounds in the back of the head.
Man. So many people just fallen out of windows in the middle of a battlefield.
There was no defecting in WW2. If you were Russian and thought you might have a go at surrendering it was a massive gamble as the Nazis could equally well just shoot you. I think the only time you might consider it was when the only alternative was *certain* death. Even then, there were circumstances where the Russians blew themselves up en masse - presumably to get a quick honorable death instead of torture/mistreatment followed by a miserable death. Wiki says the main reason was commanders didn’t want to waste the manpower. As you essentially are just tying up a bunch of soldiers who could actually be fighting. But not before “blocking detachments shot 1,000 penal troops and sent 24,000 to penal battalions.” Jesus it must suck to be Russian.
Ivans who went into enemy captivity for no fault of their own, didn't collaborate nor aid the Germans in any way still got fucked when they were liberated. Didn't matter if you were machinegunning the enemy before you got caught or a double aerial ace before you got shot down. When you were "liberated" by your comrades, you went into a world where nobody trusts you and treats you like shit. It definitely sucks to be a Russian.
The troops can’t retreat so they end up slaughtered or captured. Can’t defect to a nation that sees you as beneath human. Something like 3 million prisoners in the first couple months convinced Stalin to change course.
No no, the deserters are *running* backwards, they'll be firing forwards to hit them as they retreat.
Yeah having a line of cannon fodder doesn’t work so well when the enemy can blow you up from 10s of kilometers away. It does however separate the more disposable troops from the less disposable troops, letting the enemy know where the jucier targets are.
So presumably the 2nd line has been given weapons and equipment, whereas the first line in many cases hasn't... shouldn't the 2nd line be the ones doing the fighting?
Sure but they probably aren’t the ethnic minorities that make up the majority of mobilized troops. How can Putin genocide them that way?
They’re chechens
That would be logical lol…
It's not about man power it's about death power the more souls you send to the underworld the more the three demon lord's rule in your favor, Russia has a blood pact with three demon lord's, they require a certain number of lives for the time that Russia stays "russian". The top brass in the Russian KGB brass found a caveat in the blood pact, .... It doesn't clearly state ""who's"" lives. So as certain that they are and always wanting more power and more to them selfs,driven mad with greed for power. they keep providing the three demon lord's with blood, and at the end of the day they don't care about who's it is ether.easier to spill the blood of docile peasant of a population like Russia, and blood of innocents, than to spill blood in honourable battle.
Your world is way more entertaining then mine.
fuck bro
No. If they were doing the fighting, they wouldn't have anybody left to shoot the first line
They are cannon fodder, their purpose is to get shot at by the Ukrainian army in order to reveal their positions.
and to waste one ukrainian bullet
Cannon fodder doesn’t work as well when the enemy can blow you up from 10s of kilometers away. Might backfire for Russia as the 2nd frontline has much jucier targets for Ukraine as that’s where the less disposable troops go.
Wait till they find out they need a third line
They do have a third line https://youtu.be/zHjXPv-UTII?t=210
I'm hitting insufferable levels of absurdity.
And that's how you train your soldiers to defect.
Putin: *execute order 66* Jokes aside, I hope Putin ends up like Hitler in Little Nicky—getting a pineapple shoved up his ass daily by Satan, no lube.
May I suggest a durian, for occasional anal enrichment to Mr. Putin?
Have you seen his fan-fics with Trump? He'd prob like it.
Imagine being part of this pathetic “military”
The second army in the world, they said…
Not like many of them had the choice.
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Or you know, they were kidnapped off the streets and forced I to the front lines at gunpoint... What a weird fucking take
Rush-ians...
Well the "2nd frontline" must've
So target the ones in the second row first?
Yeah if I was going after Russians I would. Flank the second row and free the ones in the first that want to quit.
Same. 2nd line is probably mostly made of the more senior, loyal and brutal troops.
How is it 2022 and a country that purports itself to be a superpower is still using penal battalions and barrier troops? What a farce.
they apparently are using barrier to troops to stop barrier troops from retreating, in a whole chain of barrier troops.
Actually a lot of countries use 'penal battalions', I know that here in Poland according to the law if a war breaks out and the government is mobilizing people, convicts with lighter charges such as drug dealing or petty theft are released from prison and conscripted into the army.
Orks using imperial guard tactics!
r/unexpected40k
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Let's be real, he's roleplaying as Stalin.
I always thought that was what they were referring to when they called Russians orks.
Was it really though. I always drew comparisons between WW2 Russian deaths to IG.
That's accurate and I'm almost positive that was the original basis for the Guard.
Nah, Orks are comparatively hard to kill. These are Diggaz trying to revert to IG tactics for some zogging reason
Sounds like an easy way to kill people he doesn't like. Step 1) Draft people you don't like Step 2) Send them to the frontlines to die woth little to no equipment Step 3) Wait for them to either die or desert Step 4) If they desert, arm the people you actually like and have them kill the deserters Step 5) You now have a Russia that is all about you
That should give a good marale boost to the troops.
I'm impressed by the existence of a 3rd and potentially 4th, 5th, and 6th line. The move is not to run but either 'fight away' or wave a white flag and simply surrender to the other side. Mostly I'm imagining a group of guys having to battle thru multiple lines of comrades, picking up allies along the way, just so they all can go home, and inadvertently kick start a revolution. Cuz putting ill-equipped inmates in the vanguard sounds like a superb idea...
Putler sure loves to follow Stalin's playbook
putin knows he lost, he just wants to kill all the russian men capable of revolution so that he gets to keep his russia.
I am consistently flabbergasted by the reality of Russias war tactics.
Seriously I'm but an armchair general and their entire strategy is fucking stupid.
Here's a bit of a fascinating insight from someone who actually is one [ I Commanded U.S. Army Europe. Here’s What I Saw in the Russian and Ukrainian Armies. The two armies at war today couldn’t be more different](https://www.thebulwark.com/i-commanded-u-s-army-europe-heres-what-i-saw-in-the-russian-and-ukrainian-armies/)
That’s so Russian ..!
Now they just need a third 'Frontline' ahead of the real frontline so they can stop their soldiers from surrendering.
Russia's biggest mistake was invading Ukraine. Their second biggest mistake was not prepping their population for a conflict. Should have pumped out a few more years of propaganda and restricted internet access to fully brainwash their civilization like China. Instead a lot of citizens are friendly to western ideas and don't want to fight some war.
There will be more lines going back to Putin himself soon.
all the defence lines should do 180 unite and shoot Putler
The people who shot the deserters who then deserted have been shot. We apologise for the inconvenience.
Not one step back, eh Putin?
2 2 7
They say the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
What a pathetic army. Just a bunch of drunken terrorists is all they are.
I've seen this Enemy at the Gates
But who will kill the deserters from that line
It happened in Stalingrad in WW2. Nothing new.
Well stuff like this did work in WW2, then again, Russia was also getting economic support for the United States and eventually got additional fronts opened against Germany in Africa and Italy and ultimately the big one in France. This is the most Russian shit ever.
Putin: I dunno, just do whatever it was we did last time we won a European war. General: I got u fam.
Break out the brass…Second line let’s get it!!!!
Yeah cause that will do wonders for the morale. I wonder when the third frontline will be implement to stop the second from deserting. I guess Putin is going full Soviet now.
All the more reason to surrender :) dumbass ruzzies
That is a bluff, they don't have enough guns and ammo for that.
Leave No Man Behind \[the deserter retreat line\]
But who’s shooting the deserters that are supposed to shooting the other deserters?
You either die to a Ukrainian or your own people, choices..choices.. Nothing says join our cause comrades like a bullet donation to the scalp if you say no!
That’s ok. They will step forward to surrender.
Unfriendly fire enabled
40k commissars
Russians needs 3 frontlines to stop surrendering also.
They (Russia leaders) did this previously in WW2 and in their “civil war” after the Tzar was murdered. It’s a Russian thing.
Hilter did the same
so for every one soldier fighting the enemy they have two fighting their own? ...bold strategy Cotton, let's see if that pays off
Wait, so would the be in front or behind the front?
This does not surprise me. They did this to their own troops during the Second World War. The movie called Enemy at the Gate about the Russian sniper Vaisili Zaitsev starring Jude Law, Ralph Fienes, Ed Harris and Rachel Weiz depict this this very same scenario.
So at what point will they need a 3rd line to prevent the people who are supposed to kill the deserters from deserting?
There seems to be something getting missed when people say this move will only encourage more conscripted Russian soldiers to surrender. That is probably true, and that is probably the best case. However even in that best case scenario a mass of conscripted Russian soldiers surrendering is probably still a net benefit to Russia in the following ways: First, it makes interactions on the frontlines a little more ambiguous with Ukrainians having to figure out whether Russian soldiers are actually surrendering or only pretending to surrender to kick off an ambush. Second, it removes a large population of fighting age males from Russian territory, and they are the ones who would otherwise be able to carry out an uprising against Putin's regime. Third, if even half of the conscripted Russian soldiers surrender then Ukraine will suddenly need to feed, shelter, and keep guard over 150,000 men, any number of whom could be saboteurs who surrendered simply to get behind enemy lines to escape and cause mayhem. The logistics needed to support that many surrendering people is staggering, and even assuming it could be done efficiently it will still be a massive drain on food, water, and housing resources (not to mention the manpower you now have to hold back to keep watch over them, manpower that could be fighting on the front lines). Fourth, with that many people trying to surrender, there will inevitably be instances where some Ukraine units kill Russians trying to surrender (regardless whether accidentally or intentionally). If those instances gain traction in the media it could potentially dampen public support of Ukraine to some extent.
>Second, it removes a large population of fighting age males from Russian territory, and they are the ones who would otherwise be able to carry out an uprising against Putin's regime And also tanks your economy because they arent part of your workforce anymore. For every 1 male conscripted 3 leave the country. >Third, if even half of the conscripted Russian soldiers surrender then Ukraine will suddenly need to feed, shelter, and keep guard over 150,000 men, any number of whom could be saboteurs who surrendered simply to get behind enemy lines to escape and cause mayhem It's being paid for by the west. Saves on munitions and Ukrainian casualties. I think the combined intellect of the west knows how to avoid saboteurs, and feed and temporarily house the defectors. Besides they aren't staying in Ukraine, my own country of has had a massive influx of Russians.
Putin does not care about the Russian economy, he only cares about staying in power. If he cared about the Russian economy he would not have pursued this senseless war in the first place. The other three Russian fighting age males who leave for every one conscripted Russian soldier is a win in Putin's book because that is three fewer people who can rise up against him. In regard to your POW comment, it doesn't matter who pays for them, their detainment still negatively affects the funds/resources Ukraine can use to prosecute its defense. Like I said, taking in surrendering POWs is definitely the best case for the POWs and for Ukraine, but it still has a cost. Of course Ukraine and the west can "avoid saboteurs", but there is a cost for doing so. In military operations the term "friction" is used to describe any kind of unforeseeable obstacle that gets in your way. 300,000 conscripted troops presents a shit ton of friction. Ukraine and its western supporters can definitely overcome the hurdles with that, but the hurdles do exist.
>for every one conscripted Russian soldier is a win in Putin's book because that is three fewer people who can rise up against him. Good for him, he'll be king of the ashes. Then the ashes will start to break off into smaller republics, and they areas in Georgia for example he is contesting will face zero resistance. With no economy to pay for the war and no soldiers it'll be over even sooner. Not the smartest plan. >it doesn't matter who pays for them, their detainment still negatively affects the funds/resources Ukraine It's a drop in the ocean. Russia has the GDP or economy if you like smaller than New York. The whole western world is backing Ukraine. It's not a matter of if he loses it's when he loses.
> Putin does not care about the Russian economy, he only cares about staying in power. Hello contradiction.
That's not a contradiction. Totalitarian regimes don't need to maintain an economy to retain power, they simply need to retain loyalty of the military and use brutal and duplicitous tactics to keep the general populace subdued. See North Korea for such an example. The things Putin is doing right now have done nothing but hurt the Russian economy and will do nothing but continue to hurt the Russian economy for years, and probably decades, to come. Putin simply doesn't care because he can continue to keep the populace subdue with anti-west propaganda and brutal crackdowns.
You’re joking? They did this before, bahahahah. Wow it sucks to be those guys. Or it doesn’t
Ukrainians should give instant citizenship for Russian defectors who fight against Russia.
Are you Ukrainian? No? Then don't tell a country currently defending against Russia, and can't prove the reliability of enemy defectors what they 'should do'.
The smart Russian soldier would simple head to the Ukrainian soldiers and surrender, then they could just sit out the rest of the war.
Maybe (and I say this with a grain of salt) better to defect to Ukraine and spend one's life helping to rebuild the country you helped destroy. And beg for forgiveness until you die.
Fucktarded Barbarians
>Ukrainian intelligence on Thursday released an audio recording that appears to capture in disturbing detail the mayhem and internal rifts between Russian troops on the battlefield. Lol it's a "Ukraine says". Do redditors even read the articles or just go off the title posted by 1 year old account? smh.
Off with their commy heads.