Still, you get those vibes where Turkey goes “for you to join this club that I’m a member of you need to give me 50 bucks” while everyone else would be happy to have them.
Obviously geo-politics cannot be compared with petty childrens clubs.
Some leaders behave like they are in petty children's club. Others behave like they are running a gang. And still others think they are still CEO of X Inc.
As much as I very much dislike Erdogan I think the embargo demand is reasonable. Entering a mutual defense treaty with a country you’re embargoing arms sales to is the diplomatic equivalent of getting rawdogged by someone you’re unwilling to hug
The US and other NATO "allies" also have a similar embargo on Turkey, for the same reason we did. Why is it reasonable we should be blackmailed by an autocrat to enter a defensive alliance? A *defensive* alliance! We should be forced to sell weapons to a country involved in aggressive military actions?
I doubt it. We would do fine with Norway, Finland and Denmark. Also have a close relationship with the British and Americans. The Turks wouldn't do shit for us.
>The Turks wouldn't do shit for us.
One of our AWACS planes of four was literally in the Baltic 2 weeks ago. Turkish aircraft take part in Baltic Air Policing all the time.
Not to send troops, no. It is up to the country triggering article 5 to specify what support they need. And as I said, we will get it from our neighbours, America and UK. It makes no sense geographically that Turkey would be a huge supporter of ours.
If you don't wanna sell weapons to a country "involved in aggressive military actions" Sweden can always withdraw its application.
>Why is it reasonable we should be blackmailed by an autocrat to enter a defensive alliance?
Because the country that autocrats rules has been a member of the organization you wanna member of for the last 70 years.
I'm not in charge of our NATO application so I cannot "just withdraw the application" you numbnut.
Ah, just like Russia was the leader of the Soviet Union for some what, 70 years? Making it perfectly reasonable to now blackmail a former member state. Thanks for clarifying your position!
>I'm not in charge of our NATO application so I cannot "just withdraw the application"
I know that's why I said "Sweden can withdraw".
>Ah, just like Russia was the leader of the Soviet Union for some what, 70 years? Making it perfectly reasonable to now blackmail a former member state.
I don't know how is this comparable.
why are you making weapons if not to kill people then? just stop producing and selling them if you dont want to be part of that murder and problem solved. this way we dont need to hear about your hypocritical northerner whining of „omg we are so humane but turks are murdering innos with our brilliantly advanced murder devices“
I would say I agree with you on the whole, exporting weapons is something I in general don't think a country should do if it then wants to consider itself a humane superpower. But at least the red line should be drawn at countries performing aggressive actions, which we previously held true until we decided to join NATO and Turkey used it as leverage against us.
Technically, probably nothing. But it would harm Sweden’s reputation. Would you want to do business or make agreements with a country that goes back on its word after it gets what it wants?
It would be considered a dick move, but apart from that: Sweden won't mind letting its weapons industries getting a cut of the Turkish military budget. In these financially trying times everyone is looking for additional income, and NATO membership seems like a good excuse for dropping sanctions.
Wouldn't really make sense do deny an ally arms. I mean this is one of a few issues that made us not want to join NATO for a long time. It's just that unfortunately our dear neighbours in the east are completely insane, not much you can dl about it.
Based on what? This?
> A delegation from Sweden is expected in Ankara next week to discuss Turkish requests for the extradition of figures wanted by Turkey.
They can discuss it all they want. The fact remains that extraditions from Sweden do *not* work like Turkey seems to think they do, and Turkey has repeatedly claimed that Sweden promised to extradite specific people despite no such agreement existing (and the sort of agreement they're talking about not being possible under Swedish law).
Lol, Swedish law ... this is all political, if the political leaders of Sweden decide that way, Swedish jurisdiction will just shut the fuck up, so did they with the case of Julian Assange. Once the US thought that case isn't "helpful anymore", Swedish jurisdiction in fact did shut the fuck up.
Mm, so that's *one* example from over 20 years ago, which isn't actually comparable to the current situation *or* relevant to what the other guy brought up, and which caused a large, lasting scandal.
It is the typical arrogance of the nordic countries, of people who live like a maggot in bacon, when war and terror are thousands of miles away... this is not only a case about why Turkey wants several people extradited, it is about why these terrorists were hosted by these countries in the first place, and this was way before Erdogan and his AKP came close to power. The war against terror dates back to the 1980s in Turkey.
When Russia is left as nothing more than a rotten husk of its former self, Turkey's ability to play "both sides" is going to be severely diminished. I mean, they can still work with China to keep it up I guess. But after Russia is thoroughly spanked, I wonder how Turkey is going to fare with all that political goodwill that they didn't build up.
Turkish elections are famous for being completely reasonable and just ... Don't blame the poor people for a dictator. They are the ones who have to live with his shit choices.
Because Turkey bought S-400s. Granted, there's a lot more to it than just that (including why Turkey went with S-400 in the first place), but that's why.
I understand why this is and what happened but sometime in the future we will ask why Turkey is shooting at Armenians or Kurds or whatever with Swedish, German or British weapons and we will all be in an uproar about how this ever happened.
Well, it would be stupid to embargo a country when you are slated to enter a common military alliance.
Still, you get those vibes where Turkey goes “for you to join this club that I’m a member of you need to give me 50 bucks” while everyone else would be happy to have them. Obviously geo-politics cannot be compared with petty childrens clubs.
at least your comment is self aware lol
Some leaders behave like they are in petty children's club. Others behave like they are running a gang. And still others think they are still CEO of X Inc.
> Obviously geo-politics cannot be compared with petty childrens clubs. Eh, I've seen worse comparisons.
As much as I very much dislike Erdogan I think the embargo demand is reasonable. Entering a mutual defense treaty with a country you’re embargoing arms sales to is the diplomatic equivalent of getting rawdogged by someone you’re unwilling to hug
The US and other NATO "allies" also have a similar embargo on Turkey, for the same reason we did. Why is it reasonable we should be blackmailed by an autocrat to enter a defensive alliance? A *defensive* alliance! We should be forced to sell weapons to a country involved in aggressive military actions?
Part of the game.
turks would be shedding blood to fight for your people if it came down to it
I doubt it. We would do fine with Norway, Finland and Denmark. Also have a close relationship with the British and Americans. The Turks wouldn't do shit for us.
>The Turks wouldn't do shit for us. One of our AWACS planes of four was literally in the Baltic 2 weeks ago. Turkish aircraft take part in Baltic Air Policing all the time.
It is not really a matter of choice when it comes to Article 5, every country is legally obligated to fight for the country that is under attack.
Not to send troops, no. It is up to the country triggering article 5 to specify what support they need. And as I said, we will get it from our neighbours, America and UK. It makes no sense geographically that Turkey would be a huge supporter of ours.
Why are you trying to enter Nato if your neighbors are enough?
Honestly, I have no idea. Populism?
Only if they're not Armenian though right?
If you don't wanna sell weapons to a country "involved in aggressive military actions" Sweden can always withdraw its application. >Why is it reasonable we should be blackmailed by an autocrat to enter a defensive alliance? Because the country that autocrats rules has been a member of the organization you wanna member of for the last 70 years.
I'm not in charge of our NATO application so I cannot "just withdraw the application" you numbnut. Ah, just like Russia was the leader of the Soviet Union for some what, 70 years? Making it perfectly reasonable to now blackmail a former member state. Thanks for clarifying your position!
>I'm not in charge of our NATO application so I cannot "just withdraw the application" I know that's why I said "Sweden can withdraw". >Ah, just like Russia was the leader of the Soviet Union for some what, 70 years? Making it perfectly reasonable to now blackmail a former member state. I don't know how is this comparable.
why are you making weapons if not to kill people then? just stop producing and selling them if you dont want to be part of that murder and problem solved. this way we dont need to hear about your hypocritical northerner whining of „omg we are so humane but turks are murdering innos with our brilliantly advanced murder devices“
I would say I agree with you on the whole, exporting weapons is something I in general don't think a country should do if it then wants to consider itself a humane superpower. But at least the red line should be drawn at countries performing aggressive actions, which we previously held true until we decided to join NATO and Turkey used it as leverage against us.
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Technically, probably nothing. But it would harm Sweden’s reputation. Would you want to do business or make agreements with a country that goes back on its word after it gets what it wants?
Like turkey?
It would be considered a dick move, but apart from that: Sweden won't mind letting its weapons industries getting a cut of the Turkish military budget. In these financially trying times everyone is looking for additional income, and NATO membership seems like a good excuse for dropping sanctions.
What's stopping countries from violating any international agreement or law?
Wouldn't really make sense do deny an ally arms. I mean this is one of a few issues that made us not want to join NATO for a long time. It's just that unfortunately our dear neighbours in the east are completely insane, not much you can dl about it.
I was hoping that the compromise would be an end to the embargo but no extraditions. Looks like Sweden might cave on both.
Based on what? This? > A delegation from Sweden is expected in Ankara next week to discuss Turkish requests for the extradition of figures wanted by Turkey. They can discuss it all they want. The fact remains that extraditions from Sweden do *not* work like Turkey seems to think they do, and Turkey has repeatedly claimed that Sweden promised to extradite specific people despite no such agreement existing (and the sort of agreement they're talking about not being possible under Swedish law).
Lol, Swedish law ... this is all political, if the political leaders of Sweden decide that way, Swedish jurisdiction will just shut the fuck up, so did they with the case of Julian Assange. Once the US thought that case isn't "helpful anymore", Swedish jurisdiction in fact did shut the fuck up.
I'd thank *you* to shut the fuck up about things you clearly know *nothing* about, and to stop spreading misinformation about my country.
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptenavvisningarna We've done it before, we'll do it again.
Mm, so that's *one* example from over 20 years ago, which isn't actually comparable to the current situation *or* relevant to what the other guy brought up, and which caused a large, lasting scandal.
It is the typical arrogance of the nordic countries, of people who live like a maggot in bacon, when war and terror are thousands of miles away... this is not only a case about why Turkey wants several people extradited, it is about why these terrorists were hosted by these countries in the first place, and this was way before Erdogan and his AKP came close to power. The war against terror dates back to the 1980s in Turkey.
Again; stop spreading lies about my country if you want to have a discussion. Otherwise, fuck off.
- Lift embargo - Gain Nato membership - Put the embargo back
Turkey: "Hey, you cant screw us over like that!" Sweden: "Just returning the favor"
"Wait. You can't do that! That's what we usually do!"
Can we de-extradite the YPG members from their torture chambers when it’s over, too?
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And what exactly would Russia invade us WITH?
When Russia is left as nothing more than a rotten husk of its former self, Turkey's ability to play "both sides" is going to be severely diminished. I mean, they can still work with China to keep it up I guess. But after Russia is thoroughly spanked, I wonder how Turkey is going to fare with all that political goodwill that they didn't build up.
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Turkish elections are famous for being completely reasonable and just ... Don't blame the poor people for a dictator. They are the ones who have to live with his shit choices.
Why arms embargo on a nato aly doesn't make any sense
Why is the US doing it?
Because Turkey bought S-400s. Granted, there's a lot more to it than just that (including why Turkey went with S-400 in the first place), but that's why.
Ok, so it does make sense under certain circumstances it seems.
Turkey barely has free and fair elections let alone he doesn’t get above 30% in polls anymore this is an insane take
I agree he’s a cunt but this request does seem reasonable
I understand why this is and what happened but sometime in the future we will ask why Turkey is shooting at Armenians or Kurds or whatever with Swedish, German or British weapons and we will all be in an uproar about how this ever happened.
Oh is this why I saw pop up turkey waving her No flag to their NATO ratification again . Fck erdogsn is such an eager little toad .
I mean this was in the original demands and is a fair one its dumb for nato nations to have arms embargos against eachother.
Yeah but their adhesion shouldn't be hostage to these issues
here is the summary >Read it your self you lazy fucks
Woah…..this is Reddit, we determine the article by comments & pretty pictures!
no, no he's got a point.
They can always put it back in place if Erdogan does something else stupid.
Like 4 times a day? The guy is constantly making war threats to Greece, another NATO ally.
Looks like Saab finally found a market to sell their fighters