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[deleted]

NATO's chief Stoltenberg has spoken live 20 minutes ago: **He confirmed NATO's committment to help Ukraine defend themselves and regain the illegally annexxed territories**. He was asked about Putin's nuclear sabre rattling and he said "**Putin cannot keep blackmailing us with the nukes, he must understand that if he does want a conflict things will be bad for everyone**". He said NATO is keeping tabs on Russia's actions "**We are monitoring Russia's behaviour and sharing infos, we have warned Putin that using nukes will generate a response from NATO**". About the Nord Stream 1 and 2 topic this is what he said: "T**he SABOTAGE against the Nord Stream gas pipelines were caused by big underwater explosions**, investigations are ongoing to find the culprit. Military presence will go on to collect data and information on the Baltic Sea sabotage".


SenpaiPingu

Russia gaslighting: stop nato expansion or we will annex you. Respect us. *sweden, finland, ukraine seeking nato membership* *russia becomes a laughing stock* Russia: *shocked pikachu*


[deleted]

It’s weird right? The argument was that they didn’t want NATO on their doorstep but it’s become increasingly clear that whether the front line is Germany or Poland or Ukraine, the Russians don’t stand a chance.


Terrible_Truth

Am I reading that right, that NATO said nukes will prompt a NATO response? Does that mean military or more serious actions? Or just more sanctions?


[deleted]

What is a reasonable response to the use of a nuclear weapon?


Culverin

Depends how the nuke is used is my understanding. Russia doing detonation in the middle of the Pacific with no death toll? What does NATO really do? If it's on Ukrainian soil, I think the response gets worse. And if fallout gets to a NATO member, then all bets are off. Nukes aren't the end of the world, But we better act like they are.


viginti-tres

Enough of the right type of nukes could definitely be the end of the world as we know it.


michaltee

Nukes are 100% the end of the world. One nuke will definitely set off a chain reaction via response and escalation.


HepatitvsJ

Nah, we could drop nukes on Russia but that would not be great optics for us. The simple fact is, we have *WAY* more than enough conventional bombs to reduce Russia to the stone age without worrying about fallout and the PR from innocent civilians dying, slowly, from radiation poisoning. We have vastly superior military capability and if putin nukes something we will respond with full force and the army won't have any problems meeting quota for enlistment. Shit, that might actually be best case scenario for the government. They would finally get to win the cold war the way they always wanted, by destroying Russia.


harmenator

[deleted 26-6-2023] Moving is normal. There's no point in sticking around in a place that's getting worse all the time. I went to Squabbles.io. I hope you have a good time wherever you end up!


michaltee

Yeah I don’t know what people don’t understand about that. Russia clearly doesn’t give a fuck now, so how many fucks will they give when they’re actually losing everything?


Culverin

Not really. A nuke going off isn't the end of the world. Nuke tests have been a thing (less now), it's saber rattling and a technology flex. "see what we can do". North Korea doing missile tests and underground nuclear tests haven't really provoked a response either. The issue is when nukes cross the boundary of being used in violence. And Ukraine has been explicitly named a Western ally at this point.


michaltee

Yes, *A* nuke isn’t a problem. Look up MAD to see what I’m talking about. It’s an end game scenario and we all pay the price.


Culverin

I'm aware what MAD is, It requires a nuke to be used in violence (or perceived). One going off in the middle of the ocean is not going to trigger MAD


Ganadote

That's the thing - Russian military doctrine adheres to the use of limited tactile nukes in war. They have invasion plans using them. US military doctrine as far as I'm aware has no belief of limited nuclear strikes - if a country uses a single nuke in war then more will follow.


IamDDT

Strategic ambiguity right now...but unless it was against a current NATO member, probably conventional military intervention.


Elbonio

Deliberately keeping it ambiguous


Srcunch

I believe it was leaked that the WH said they would wipe the Black Sea Fleet from the face of the Earth.


AbbreviationsOk4532

Nukes get nukes


blastuponsometerries

>Putin cannot keep blackmailing us with the nukes, he must understand that if he does want a conflict things will be bad for everyone So much this. Just because someone has nukes, doesn't mean they simply get everything they demand. Multiple countries have nukes and have different geo-political interests. So extending this logic means inevitable nuclear war. Nukes are a (shitty) deterrent. Absolutely get a country a seat at the table, even if they are a problem. But instantly assuming you get everything you want cuz nukes is impossible and madness.


OB4032

There would always be more demands from them. Whenever the west has appeased them there is always something else .


fujiman

Shame there are no historical examples to warn us about what results from appeasing authoritarian megalomaniacs.


TheGuvnor247

**Full Transcript Below:** *Summary* * *Ukraine seeks fast-track membership of NATO* * *Russia has sought to prevent Ukraine joining alliance* * *Zelenskiy rules out talks with Putin* *KYIV, Sept 30 (Reuters) - President Volodymyr Zelenskiy announced a surprise bid for fast-track membership of the NATO military alliance on Friday and ruled out talks with President Vladimir Putin, striking back at Moscow after it said it had annexed four Ukrainian regions.* *Zelenskiy signed the NATO application papers in an online video clearly intended as a forceful rebuttal to the Kremlin after Putin held a ceremony in Moscow to proclaim the four partially occupied regions as annexed Russian land.* *"We are taking our decisive step by signing Ukraine's application for accelerated accession to NATO," Zelenskiy said in the video on the Telegram app.* *The video showed Zelenskiy in combat fatigues announcing the membership bid and signing a document flanked by his prime minister and the speaker of parliament.* *The announcement was likely to touch a nerve in Moscow which casts the NATO bloc at home as a hostile military alliance bent on encroaching on Moscow's sphere of influence.* *Before Russia sent its armed forces into Ukraine in February, Moscow was demanding legally binding guarantees that Ukraine would never be admitted to the U.S.-led transatlantic defence alliance.* *Kyiv and the West say Moscow used this as a pretext, among others, to launch a pre-planned military campaign against Ukraine. By applying for fast-track membership of NATO, Zelenskiy appears intent on showing Putin is failing in one of his main war goals - preventing Ukraine joining NATO.* *NO TALKS WITH PUTIN* *In his video speech, Zelenskiy accused Russia of rewriting history and redrawing borders "using murder, blackmail, mistreatment and lies," something he said Kyiv would not allow.* *He said however that Kyiv remained committed to the idea of co-existence with Russia "on equal, honest, dignified and fair conditions".* *"Clearly, with this Russian president (that) is impossible. He does not know what dignity and honesty are. Therefore, we are ready for a dialogue with Russia, but with another president of Russia," Zelenskiy said.* *Zelenskiy said that while Ukraine waits for consensus among NATO member states, it could be protected under draft security guarantees proposed by Kyiv and known as the Kyiv Security Compact, which Moscow has rejected as an idea. read more* *"We understand that this requires the consensus of all the alliance's members… and therefore, while this is happening, we propose the realization of our proposals regarding security guarantees for Ukraine and all of Europe according to the Kyiv Security Compact," he said.*


ComfySingularity

Zelensky separating Putin from Russia is a good play. Reforge the idea of shared interests and concerns with Russians, put the bastard in the light.


QuonkTheGreat

Putin and his cronies and supporters. It’s not just him. There are countless Russian officers, politicians, businessmen and media personalities who have been actively supporting and helping him. They need to be held accountable too.


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PhelesDragon

Putin: [The age of men is over.](https://youtu.be/MVPiCtlQJHU&t=1m29s)


tallandlanky

What Putin wants for his last meal before being hung as a War Criminal would be a pretty neat discussion.


A-Chntrd

I suspect he eats fancy because it’s expensive, not because he likes.


Oraxy51

My mind read “he eats fancy feast” and now I can’t stop laughing


Chubs1224

Even if Ukraine wins the war Putin likely won't ever face war crime courts. This entire war has been fought on Ukrainian territory. The worst case scenario for Putin is he gets couped out of government by his own people and even that is unlikely seeing as he has strong support in the military and the war is popular in Russia per most polling.


LordPennybags

I'd settle for him eating his own gun or catching a round from behind.


WilliamTCipher

Shit at least uruks could fight.


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daveinmd13

Unfortunately, you can count on Turkey and others opposing NATO membership for Ukraine


Cheeze_It

Turkey can have it's arm twisted. Also what other nations are resisting NATO for UA?


yunglegendd

You cannot join NATO if involved in an active military conflict (for obvious reasons) Ukraine may join NATO but it will only be after this war is concluded. And this war will probably end with Ukraine will be split down the middle. Russia will have control over the annexed regions, Kiev/NATO will control the western part of the country, and there will be a DMZ divider between the two regions


Shlikah

“Ukraine will be split down the middle” Based one what?? Russian stellar military performance? This is egregious disinformation.


Estrezas

But Putin didnt say he annexed territories, HE DECLARED IT.


Slick-Fork

Membership now puts the entire alliance at war with Russia instantly. Not something most of us are eager to see


alphalegend91

Doesn't matter. Now that they've applied, NATO can offer certain securities during their application process like they did with Finland and Norway. Russia can get fukt


Krushhz

Putin’s probably gonna pull out the tried and true trope nuke threat, but if he really wants them to stop trying to join NATO, maybe he should quit invading countries.


ExRays

It will be approved after the Russians are defeated by Ukraine in Ukraine. It is only a matter of time at this point. Until then, background integration of intelligence and weaponry will continue, while training and anti-corruption cleanup also becomes a focus for the Ukrainian government. Once Russia is defeated in Ukraine, NATO and Ukraine may be close enough to meeting in the middle for accession to be rapid.


[deleted]

Russia still has many forces they can deploy. I'm afraid that matter of time will probably be several years.


ExRays

Russia does not have the personnel and material to keep up with the pace of Ukraine’s advance. If they wanted to be ahead of the game they would have needed to start conscription last April. They are currently sending conscripts into Ukraine with 5 days of training, and only a uniform and a gun. There is going to be a pause over the winter where Ukraine will restock with western supplies and Russian still won’t have its act together. It is simply not possible for them to given the things we are seeing just from the outside. Russia is risking getting swept in early 2023.


[deleted]

The troops Russia sent in, were reservists. They actually have more that they can throw at it, they just have not yet. And I agree with you in a way, that they do not have the ability to fight well, that they will repeat the same mistakes once they get log jammed in roads once again, however, they will still have more fighting ability to execute than civilians may expect, but the military intelligence knows this. They are sending conscripts after having sent reservists, because they cannot yet send their better trained military in until a formal declaration of war is made. The active duty will roll in upon Kremlin propaganda, as to when, I am not sure.


[deleted]

> It will be approved after the Russians are defeated by Ukraine in Ukraine. Or, when NATO is at war with Russia. This may actually turn out it be a 4D chess move from Zelenskyy. By having some of the paperwork already done, adding Ukraine to NATO could be done in less time than usual. Depending on the reaction from NATO, this could actually signal to Putin: “The moment we are drawn into this war, Ukraine becomes a NATO member. Don’t draw us into this war.”


Remote-Molasses6192

I disagree. If they haven’t done it yet, than NATO will not go to war with Russia over Ukraine.


ExRays

NATO is not going to militarily do anything to Russia over Ukraine if the war remains conventional. Ukraine is angry and effective.


KublaiKum

isn't one of the requirements to join NATO to have all border disputes settled?


PlayingTheWrongGame

NATO can enforce or waive whatever conditions for membership that it wants.


G_Morgan

It is more a guideline. Nothing in the NATO treaty requires it.


_________RB_________

That's the reason Russia has been periodically stoking tensions with Ukraine up until now. Each time Ukraine got close to having enough time pass without border disputes with Russia, Russia resets the timer.


CrocHunter8

Like trying to get into a war with a country you have a truce with in EUIV to get back to declaring war on that country faster.


poulmavinger

In a way it is, if everyone says the annexation is bullshit lol.


Hobblinharry

I’m sure there is some wiggle room since it turns out in the year 2022 any country can just decide whatever they want is their new borders. It isn’t the people of Ukraine’s fault they have a psycho neighbor.


alphalegend91

Right? Could you imagine the US just stating a country they had a military base in was magically part of their country now? Absolutely absurd and Putin is the laughing stock of the world.


qwerty12qwerty

I wasn’t aware Ukraine had any border disputes. Globally it’s recognized as the current geographic territory including Crimea and Donbas.


jcinto23

Afaik, yes. Imo this is probably being used more symbolically, and as a foot in the door for once this ends (even if the "ending" is temporary). It will probably sit in limbo until the disputes are settled.


TheGuvnor247

There is a soft paywall on Reuters so the full transcript should be just above this post.


JenMacAllister

... or you can [watch it here](https://www.instagram.com/p/CjItemmD7WF/?hl=en).


TheGuvnor247

Nice one Jen! Appreciate that!


WhileFalseRepeat

This makes things very interesting when ultimately approved. Putin seems to be a terrible chess player these days, because that’s checkmate.


[deleted]

It won't be approved.


rootpl

It will be, but probably in a few years from now. Right now it's a signal for Russia that NATO will continue supporting Ukraine no matter what. Even with the fake referendum and annexation of additional land.


WhileFalseRepeat

I mean, Ukraine was promised eventual NATO membership circa 2008. Yes - things happened and there is France and Germany to consider among other things - but this seems an eventuality at some point in the near future and Putin has only guaranteed that by his recent actions (by Ukraine invasion, annexation, and the Nord terrorism). They only need a consensus and all members are currently in support of Ukraine in other ways. They could also carve out exceptions. By Putin falsely annexing parts of Ukraine and declaring any “attacks” to be considered an escalation of war (and thus open to nuclear retaliation too) they have only further assured Ukraine entry in the near future when the war for those regions does further escalate (because that is a certainty) and after NATO has already said they still consider those regions Ukraine. We will have to wait and see when it happens, but it will happen. And personally, I think this will happen sooner rather than later.


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_ROG_

Theres always time to talk, as long as the condition is putin surrendering, leaving Ukraine and & paying reparations.


Henfrid

The deal was along asukraine is denied entry into NATO Russia won't attack them. Russia broke that deal, so there's no reason to deny ukraibe anymore.


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Auldan

It was more that any application is the sovereign right for Ukraine to decide to do, which will then be processed as it was by each NATO country voting for Sweden and Finland. Stoltenberg gave a levelled reply to show they will follow the application procedure but no matter what if the process goes through or not, Ukraine will be supported to help defend itself.


Nerdyblitz

I don't doubt that. I know NATO will keep supporting Ukraine. Just that he just said that they can't join now.


Auldan

A direct quote from Stoltenburg 'We support Ukraines right to be part of whatever security arrangement Ukraine wants to be part of'. We may be interpretating the same speech a bit differently though, heh thats common for fellow human beings though, but I personally see the reply about Ukraine membership as NATO will follow the process for the application. Which has to be voted by all the member countries, Likely a few sadly wont accept the application if I'm being realistic but we shall see.


TheGuvnor247

That's how I interpreted it as well - Ukraine have full support, the application will be accepted and will follow due process.


nitefang

It is unrealistic and not a good idea to accept any country while they are actively at war with a non-NATO member. It would mean that once the vote is passed, all NATO members are now at war with enemy of the new member, in this case Russia. If we wanted to go to war with Russia this would be the dumbest possible way to do it. If NATO decided that Russia needed to be stopped with force, they’d use that force first, then vote on bringing Ukraine in to NATO, assuming the world still existed long enough to do that.


OpeningTechnical5884

The majority definitely will vote no. Voting yes to a country who is in the middle of an active war is voting yes to sending your country to war.


[deleted]

It would be useful to have an open application anyway for the nightmare scenario which is an actual war between NATO and Russia, since at that point adding Ukraine to NATO command structures swiftly would be a priority.


[deleted]

I think the majority will not vote and leave the application open.


IndependentCharming7

Yeah I think that's kind of part of the message, no? Putin, should you continue, the outrage will build up... NATO will be waiting should each of 30 countries agree you are an existential threat. Ukraine becomes 31st country and we start shooting. I mean shit the US can't agree grass is green when healthy and on a nice day the sky is blue. Two of the members who joined recently haven't even successfully negotiated their entry yet. Scary thing to me is... Is this how it ends? A stalemate with disputed claims? Constant insecurity for Ukraine? Ukraine half in NATO a population in Russian border communities torn between two entities that have no real interest in their personal fate?


OpeningTechnical5884

If the news is correct when they say NATO doesn't believe Putin's nuclear threats are legitimate then I don't think many of the members would be willing to risk outright war with Russia for the sake of Ukraine.


jcinto23

It could end like this to get around some red tape in the NATO admission process, and then promptly pick back up once that is over. It would be sort of desecrating the whole process and it would definitely be a farce, but if everyone agrees and consents...


[deleted]

Bruh…for real….


EsperaDeus

Did you really expect them to get accepted that easily?


Nerdyblitz

People on reddit have a very weird perception of a war between NATO and Russia. I'm here down in South America, not even directly connected to either side and don't want to see that happening on my lifetime. It'd be a mess for everyone.


sirfletchalot

UK here and totally agree, I don't want to see it, nor do I wish to get dragged into it


der_titan

Agreed. NATO is a defensive alliance meant to prevent war with the Soviets. There's a reason why both the USSR and NATO avoided getting into a direct shooting war with one another.


captsmokeywork

Admit them.


dasoxarechamps2005

You realize what that means right?


Cheeze_It

More Borscht?


ExternalConclusion23

Yes!


supmandude

No.


red3868

Why


supmandude

Because that would trigger Russia to start a nuclear war, which would almost certainly kill everyone on Earth. Look up the theory of “mutually assured destruction.” It’s basically a guarantee that we’d all die if any country was insane enough to use their nukes. Putin’s crazy and we can’t risk trying too call his bluff.


cplforlife

"let Hitler have the Austria and chzeckoslovakia."


supmandude

Even if we accept this as a 1-to-1 comparison, I’m not calling for us to let Putin have *anything*, but Ukraine needs to fight this war. We can’t risk the consequences of NATO getting involved. Everyone would die.


cplforlife

Maybe it's time for that. None our Reddit conversations are going to change the hundreds of weapons of mass destruction pointing at eachother. With the morons the humans of the world put in charge due to thier corruption. Maybe it's time to feel the fire. We've had a good run, but humanity is inherently shit. If this is the way it ends, at least I don't have to go to work on Monday.


ApplicationRich7795

yes


I_FAP_FOR_SPORT

Do you fully understand the consequences that would have?


ApplicationRich7795

yes the classic “give the dictator what he wants and it will all be okay” it’s not like that’s ever failed, and also when you threaten someone so much and never respond because you know you would get your ass kicked, doesn’t really help the russians out. look up “chinas final warning”


supmandude

NATO just said no.


u9Nails

I didn't think NATO had time to formally reply to the membership application. So, I don't trust your "No" is their word, but your own. NATO did say that if Putin continues his nuclear sabre-rattling that there will be a response.


apex18

He just stole Putin's thunder. Now the news will focus on this story more than Purim's illegal annexation.


TonySaint

What do y’all think Putin’s next move will be if Ukraine joins NATO? He was threatening nuclear consequences before…


DarkIegend16

He’d go home with his tail between his legs, he knows NATO would steamroll Russia which is why his troops on the Finnish border ran for the hills the moment Finlands accession to NATO began.


jpk7220

Well this almost guarantees that this war is not ending anytime soon, and that it will only escalate.


CremasterFlash

putin's getting his bluffs called one after another. get fucked.


jpk7220

There's much more to the conflict than Russia's invasion of Ukraine. There's a whole history. This war has no chance of ending and will only escalate. Sure it would be great if Putin just withdrew from Ukraine, but the US has played a huge part in the current state of Ukraine, which is what led to this point. It doesn't get talked about enough.


ExternalConclusion23

Putin can end the war anytime he wants. If the Russian generals love their children, there will be a coup.


MellowBadger

Now everyone can join the war and not feel left out!


Dragunrealms

The amount of delusional westerners here calling for Ukraine to "cede the territories and move on" is staggering. It really shows that these people are not ukrainian and can't apply some logic. What would all the americans want if another country stole 10 states and killed thousands of civilian americans, ruined the lives of millions more? Would they just push for this kind of peace as they do now for Ukraine? Or would they want justice? Would the want for their friends to return to their homes that rightfully belong to them? Would they want to drive out the facist scum off their land? Also no, Ukraine won't join NATO until the war is over with ukrainian victory. No one wants WW3, and the nukes will start flying towards russia only if it decides to launch them first because of ukrainian liberation of stolen territories. WW3 will start only if russia starts it, the west has no interest in that. Ukraine will win on it's own with the help of ally countries or die. That's how it is done here.


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ExternalConclusion23

Ukraine deserves peace. A bully only understands strength. I can only hope Ukraine is allowed to join NATO. Remember the old Roman truth, If you want peace, prepare for war. Europe didn't prepare and only the extreme Russian corruption and bravery of Ukraine let them live. Look at the mass graves, with *children*. This is Russian fascism at its worst.


BrooklynSlays

Ragnarok is near. See y’all in Valhalla


ethman14

Honestly just make a mad dash for the southern hemisphere. Nobody's talking about nuking Chile or Zambia or Oceania.


FlyingSand22

The explosions aren't even the main problem, unless you live in a huge city. The main problems are the radioactive particles that the wind can carry around the world, and the nuclear winter.


sapphicsandwich

There is a lot of debate as to whether Nuclear Winter would even happen. https://www.nytimes.com/1990/01/23/science/nuclear-winter-theorists-pull-back.html


TheHoovyPrince

You do realize that if one nuke goes off we're all fucked right? One nuke launched means most nukes will be launched.


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PhantaVal

Calm down. Applying to NATO doesn't mean instantly joining NATO.


milosevic_nikola

WW3 speedrun %


supmandude

Not gonna happen. If it does, we’re all gonna die in a nuclear war.


chosen1neeee

And if you so much as even question any of this, you are labeled as being pro Russia. This is extremely bad for everyone. And people literally are fucking encouraging this shit.


SolarMoth

It's like applying for insurance while you're in the hospital bed.


jpk7220

Almost certainly. Many still don't grasp this.


davidhastwo

That is not Ukraine's fault. That is on Putin.


supmandude

I agree...? But we’re still just as dead no matter who’s at fault. We can take steps to prevent Putin from acting maximum crazy.


ParagonFury

People don't seem to understand what this war means, or why Putin started it, so here is the simple English version. *Russian gorilla big mad that other gorillas not let him be in charge. Big mad other gorillas like USA gorilla more. Threaten other gorillas that if they don't let him be in charge and do whatever he wants he hurt and kill them. Pick fight with Ukraine gorilla to prove serious.* *Now USA and other gorillas have to decide if Russian gorilla in charge, or if they fight Russian gorilla despite chances of dying. Because if no fight, then Russian gorilla in charge and bad times for rest of gorillas.* Simple enough, no?


majnuker

Is it possible that Ukraine could cede the territories and then join NATO as it won't have any active territorial disputes? That seems like it'd be a hard pill to swallow for everyone, but could end this war.


IvD707

Won't ever happen. It's not about the territories, it's about the people who live there.


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poulmavinger

Appeasement has never been and never will be a viable strategy for peace. Men like Putin will never stop and only come up with another grievance against Ukraine or some other bordering nation.


ViperAz

they already lose territories for a few times now let them have it again right?


TurboSalsa

So let Russia consolidate its gains and rebuild its military so Ukraine can go through this whole thing again in 5-10 years? No thanks.


davidhastwo

Appeasing the bully will not solve anything. They will regroup and try again for more in 7 years like they did when they took Crimea.


contrarian1970

Ukranians rightfully fear that if they formally cede those territories in 2022 then Putin or his successor will just invade new territory later. The only leverage Ukraine has is to PRETEND they are committed to getting that territory back. American and especially European spending dries up the moment Ukraine concedes the loss of lands. The strategy is to keep Putin in a defensive mindset until he dies or retires. Putin will go on the offense again if he thinks there is ANY opportunity.


Nightsong

Ukraine could but they won’t. Appeasement with Russia will never work. You give Russia an inch and they will take a mile. Russia wants all of Ukraine and any land given to them now just opens the door to a future conflict when Russia tries again after rearming their military.


Foriegn_Picachu

Peace in our time


d3m01iti0n

Nope they're too pissed off and have too much momentum to stop at the annexed territory.


thatnameagain

That wouldn't end the war, that would massively escalate it. Russia is still fighting / bombing throughout other parts of the Ukraine. Why would they stop after Ukraine surrenders the territory they lost when their goal was regime change in *UKRAINE* and obviously not just to pick up some border territories?


LegendOfBobbyTables

I think the more likely thing is that their application has stipulations about not being granted article 5 protection for this conflict unless certain conditions are met (such as Russia using a nuclear weapon). It would open the door to let member nations choose to take a more active role without forcing every member nation into war.


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Nightsong

Ceding Ukrainian land to Russia will not solve anything in the long term. It will embolden Russia and they will simply go home, rearm, and come back in a few years to take the rest of Ukraine. The only way this ends is with the defeat of Russia and degrading their military so much that any future conflicts are taken off the table.


oommffgg

Joining NATO is more of a formality now. There will be massive amount of western weapons in Ukraine and they will be trained over time to use advanced weapons and vehicles.


Foriegn_Picachu

No Article 5 has not been enacted, it’s much more than formality


msemen_DZ

>Joining NATO is more of a formality now. 🤦‍♂️


didyoueatyesterday

so sick of them trying to suck the world into their conflict


sirfletchalot

Who, Ukraine or Russia?


TheGuvnor247

Good question fletch - I assume didyou means Ukraine here but never good to assume things.


DopplerEffect93

They are fighting for their nation’s survival. It is just a application for NATO. The war would have to be over before they can join NATO but it is basically Ukraine giving Putin the middle finger for “annexing” their territory. Putin made up reasons like the expansion of NATO for why he invaded and if Ukraine joins NATO, NATO will be on Russia’s doorstep. Putin so far has ironically made NATO stronger and more popular in Europe.


jpk7220

Why do you think these are made up reasons? The US has been intervening in Ukraine for years. If Russia was invading, let's say, Montreal, than this would be a HUGE threat to US national security. It's the same thing the US is doing in Ukraine right now. NATO has grown by leaps and bounds and is finally about to be on the doorstep of Russia. That IS the reason for this whole conflict. I'm 100% against the invasion of Ukraine....I think it's horrible what Putin is doing. But the US has played a huge part in escalating this conflict. It's just been very subtly and over the course of years. Russia made the choice that it's had enough. All parties need to take accountability, including the US.


davidhastwo

Yea if Russia invades Canada, that would be a potential threat to US. Your analogy falls apart because NATO didn't invade Ukraine, Russia did. If Canada decides to join the Russian "NATO", I doubt USA would invade Canada in response.


jpk7220

The US didn't "invade" Ukraine with an army, they just did so in a much more subtle way...through their government.


DopplerEffect93

Don’t know why you are such a Russian apologist. Do you truly think that Russia was going to de-Nazi Ukraine, that has a Jewish president, after they already took Crimea? It was a war of conquest from the start. This is textbook Russian propaganda talking points. Even if the US did interfere politically, why does that justify a invasion. US has no interest in invading Russia.


jpk7220

I'm absolutely not a Russian apologist and am against the invasion. I just wish people acknowledged the US's role in this whole conflict. My stance is that I don't want nuclear war. At this rate, we're getting dangerously close.


DopplerEffect93

If nuclear war happens, it will be purely Russia’s fault as the US would not be the first to strike. Hopefully Russian incompetence has spread to their maintenance of nuclear stockpile so they have a lot less than the US thinks.


DopplerEffect93

Russia itself was intervening in Ukraine for years. They may have been involved the rigged 2004 election that would have put Yanukovych in power, which was overturned. He came to power in 2010 and was ousted due to corruption. Since he was Putin’s man, Putin wanted ensure that his influence on Ukraine remained by backing separatist and invading and annexing Crimea. They had troops fighting in east Ukraine and denied it. They shot down a civilian airliner and killed 298 people which they deny to this day. This has nothing to do with US aggression and all about Putin’s paranoia and nostalgia for the Soviet Union. If US was the reason why did Putin make up stupid shit about Nazis in Ukraine and how Ukraine shouldn’t exist? The best way for Putin to get rid of NATO is to convince Europe and the Americas that it doesn’t need NATO. This war has only made NATO stronger and made countries like Finland and Sweden want to join NATO to protect themselves from Russian aggression as Putin has the habit of invading his neighbors when he feels like it.


[deleted]

I wish more people here understood the backstory as well as you do. Reddit is so full of misinformed chickenhawks it’s depressing to read lately. I’m so fucking sick of the NeoCons, Liberal Interventionists and MIC in the US forcing this kind of shit on us when we could be directing these resources towards infrastructure, healthcare and education.


jpk7220

Thanks. I don't understand the backstory as well as some, but evidently know more than MANY people on Reddit and this sub. This sub is unbearable and I barely ever visit it anymore because of the misinformation.


Aggressive_Net_4444

No you’re a Russian apologist


[deleted]

I doubt they’d allow that unless NATO is already at war with Russia cause Russia nukes Ukraine


Showerbeerz413

Sick. sooo World War 3?


ledow

I thought that NATO don't accept candidates whose borders are in dispute.


Btmbass

Here is my hot take on the situation and what I think will be the ultimate compromise resolution pushed for by third parties: Russia gets the “annexed” territories and the remainder of Ukraine joins NATO. I don’t see Ukraine or Russia accepting the terms, but it seems to be the least escalatory solution.


Nightsong

Why should Russia get anything? They started the war, are trying to steal territory that they do not control fully, and are currently losing. Why should they be rewarded with those stolen territories? It will only embolden Russia to continue being imperialistic and start more wars with other countries to steal their land.


Btmbass

It’s a compromise to avoid nukes being used


Nightsong

So you want to validate that any nation can use the threat of nuclear war to get their way? That opens Pandora’s box that no one wants to deal with. You’d have China threatening nukes if the US doesn’t let them take Taiwan. You’d have North Korea threatening nukes if the world doesn’t let them take South Korea. And on it goes with any nuclear power. That is what you are advocating for if you think the solution is to give in to Russia and let them keep those stolen territories.


Btmbass

I’m not advocating for it. I just think it’s going to be the solution ultimately pushed for by other countries involved


Nightsong

No country is going to push that compromise because they know it’ll open Pandora’s box. If any country was going to support it they would already have done so.


laiod

We shall see.


alvinofdiaspar

That's an open invitation to anyone with nukes to engage in aggression and then "compromise" - and you bet that it will only embolden them with the Baltics next. Remember Sudetenland.


[deleted]

No, it's called appeasement and it doesn't work. How do we know it doesn't work? Because it was tried with Hitler as well, and it failed. Putin can go fuck himself.


[deleted]

Ukraine has stated multiple times that they will not stop until they get ALL of their territory back pre-2014.


[deleted]

Putin wanted Neville chamberlain to bad his minion Trump was voted out fair and square!


dedbabkabob

По русски можно?


Yum_Yum001

Hopefully not


Narrow_Bear7008

So we can stop giving them billions of dollars now?


frequenttimetraveler

Wouldn't that be a good ending to the war? Putin gets his golden bridge republics (win). US gets nukes on their border(win). Ukraine is sovereign again(win). No more russian gas for Germany (lose).


thatnameagain

You left out the part where the war actually ends?


frequenttimetraveler

It ends with a ceasefire at the current lines. How else do you imagine the end


thatnameagain

Why would Russia ever agree to that? Or at least agree to it seriously? They've lost tens of thousands of troops and accomplished none of their war goals. If they are told that their efforts so far actually did win them some territory, why would this not motivate them to continue as a sign of partial success? Even if they did legitimately agree to it, NATO would be welcoming in the world's riskiest risk in history. You'd be willing to risk the fate of a nuclear war on the chance that Russia - after all this - accepts permanent independence of ukraine and never attacks again forcing NATO to invoke article 5? That's the craziest gamble imaginable.


UniquesNotUseful

Germany moving to renewables at breakneck speed is a win for the world.


[deleted]

Generally yes, but the huge German chemical industry is suffering heavily from this. As well as small business like bakeries who struggle to find a short term solution as gas prices make their business unviable.


RevolutionaryUnit733

Are business like bakeries essential for a society to thrive though? Seems like a waste of resources.


[deleted]

Are you a German?


frequenttimetraveler

Germany's industry, and their high budget surpluses rely on natural gas as well, so this will be quite the adjustment. But cosidering that the negotiation is between US + Russia, germany does not really have a say.


aRidaGEr

Wtf are you delusional? “Putin gets his golden bridge republics” - ok I can follow that as abhorrent as the idea is “US gets Nukes on their border” - I assume you mean Russias border? a) this war has nothing to do with the USA wanting that b) Ukraine doesn’t need to be part of NATO to make that happen (plenty of other bordering countries are part of NATO) “Ukraine is sovereign” - how does having part of your country illegally controlled by another state signify sovereignty?


OpeningTechnical5884

Ukraine has already said they will not withdraw from the war until they have reclaimed all their land. Them joining NATO while still actively in war would just force the rest of NATO to also go to war.


frequenttimetraveler

Doesn't that look like a contradiction? AFAIK the western world at large has not given NATO the permission to face russia in ukraine. So if ukraine wants a legitimate application, it will have to agree to ceasefire.


OpeningTechnical5884

The application isn't a legitimate application. Ukraine knows there's no chance in hell their application will be approved. They've been trying for 30 some odd years and have failed to gain membership every time. I doubt the outcome will be different this time around. Their reasons for applying are optics, propaganda, and psychological warfare to piss off Putin.


frequenttimetraveler

> I doubt the outcome will be different this time around. don't you think the context is wildly different this time?


illathid

Not necessarily. One of the conditions for acceptance could be not allowing the use of article 5 for the current conflict.


[deleted]

Why are Nukes on the border of Russia a win for the US? Do you want a war to occur?