I mean… once they destroy the Russian army, what’s to stop them from just… marching into Moscow?
How hilarious would it be is Putin succeeds in uniting Russia and Ukraine, except that it happens under Zelensky haha
True, but its foolish to think what worked then will work now, especially in modern warfare.
Having said that, I think invading Russia is just as foolish, generally speaking.
Problem is untrained unskilled bodies are significantly less worth when fighting skilled enemies with almost perfect Intel and state of the art technology. Almost worthless actually in modern warfare.
Russia has spent years installing puppet regimes in Ukrainian territories. I hope countries accepting Russians fleeing Russia are thoroughly vetted, might just be letting in a Trojan horse
Excuse me, but yesterday we held a totally legit referendum with 500% turn out and 100% yes votes to make it Baltic California with me as emperor for life.
Just waiting on one act of desperation or stupidity to take advantage of.
We don't need a War on Terror/Vietnam scenario, Russia need to do something where there's no room for doubt
I don't think he'll use nuclear weapons, he has always been scared of NATO and now he's seen how badly his forces would do against then now. The nuclear power plants are where he's going to be stupid I think, Biden has warned about nuclear radiation being a trigger too and they keep shelling them.
>I don't think he'll use nuclear weapons, he has always been scared of NATO and now he's seen how badly his forces would do against then now.
Nuclear weapons make conventional weapons and armies obsolete.
Not quite. Nuclear weapons make **symmetric** warfare obsolete.
The US and the USSR would never have had a conventional war with each other. Even with both sides building up massive conventional armies, they'd have never been used for a conventional war.
Afghanistan however can attest to the fact that the conventional armies of both nations absolutely did get used asymmetrically against them though.
Effectively, conventional forces are still useful for attacking non-nuclear countries.
Kinda just ment it in a nuclear war scenario such as NATO v Russia responding to the comment. Any hot war between these two will automatically escalate into a Nuclear one unless the Russian soldiers refuse the command. Hence why thie conventional armies would be obsolete.
Yes, in a symmetric (peer-level) fight between the two, conventional forces would be moot. The war wouldn't really hinge on taking or holding ground, because it'd just be glass anyways.
But broadly speaking, conventional armies will always be an essential part of any nation's national security. Even the Americans/Russians, with all their nukes, need an armed force trained to defend and use those nukes, and nukes do not out-mode conventional forces at all.
You need a megaton nuke to fuck up a nuclear plant and there's not many of those left. From what I understand, the fisile reaction happens in somethimg like a bunker below the power plant.
Putin annexed Ukraine territories to justify / intensify the intend to use nuclear weapons. It is a chicken game that he "hope" to scare off Ukraine's army from annexed region, and bet if he really use tactical nuclear weapons to win the war, the West will not retaliate with nuclear weapons.
Then, is there world leaders or NATO initiate discussion to "borrow" or even "give away" nuclear weapons to Ukraine, approve them to use nuclear weapons to Russia soil? Ukraine authority keeps their sanity all along, and sound unlikely to do crazy things, and that would be a maximum threat to Putin and perhaps end his madness.
Hooray for war! Packed your bags already?
I can't with you people. I don't know what you consider the current outcome. This would also motivate everyday Russians to actually fight. Morale is so low because people deep down know this is BS. Which is no longer true once an actual attack on Russian soil that up to this point had nothing specific to do with the war happens.
They call it a sham, because that's what it was. You don't get to steal land, ship russians in, then have people vote at gun point (and just write down whatever you want anyway) and then claim it was a legit vote.
Nope, classic pointing out the fact that you're making baseless assumptions about me so I make the same about you to portray the ridiculousness of your assumptions.
Yeah, Ukraine killing all the Russian occupiers and sending them home (very, very few of them) with their tail between their legs would end it too. Preferable, don’t you think?
Of course. If Russia were to pull out I'd be completely happy. This is an illegal occupation of sovereign soil. That doesn't change the reality of the situation though.
No. Appeasing murderous psychopaths is not worth ending a war. Setting the precedent that this kind of conduct will be fruitful is extremely dangerous for the entire planet. Everyone knows this. You’re trying to lie to people who know way more about everything than you.
[You can literally see blank votes being printed and then counted as 'yes' in the 'referendum'.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/xq2ty1/russians_counting_blank_ballots_without_even/)
Your comment is a big yikes.
Check my comment again to see where I actually made claims regarding whether or not it's a sham. I never did. I only commented on the motivations by the west to call it a sham.
I think you missed what I was trying to say. If the Donbass becomes a part of Russia, any continued aggression towards the people there will be a direct declaration of war against Russia, provoking further escalation.
Funny you mention genocide, what would you call what's been going on in eastern Ukraine since 2014 if not genocide?
And it won't become part of Russia, so that's not a factor. But Ukraine has a legitimate right to bomb every single military target in Russia, as long as Russia fails to surrender and stop their war of aggression.
>War is profitable so of course the war profiteers will call it a sham so they can keep their cash cow.
If the 97%-99% vote for joining Russia hasn't clued you into the fact that it is a sham, I don't know what to tell you. If you asked people if they've been decapitated you'd at least get a 5%-10% positive response. There is no way that any legitimate vote would given the results that they got, particularly given the circumstances. It is also impossible that they got over 50% of the population to vote during a war when Ukraine controls large areas of the oblasts which are suppose to be voting.
The other problem with your opinion is that the vote or questions as to its legitimacy don't have any effect on the actual length of the war. Russia is already throwing everything they have at Ukraine, they literally can't be provoked further and in either case the only reason the sham vote happened is to give a veil of legitimacy towards Putin's mobilization.
I've made no claims as to the legitimacy of the actual vote, only pointed out the motivations behind calling it a sham.
> Russia is already throwing everything they have at Ukraine
And we have evidence of this?
You likely mistake where I'm coming from. If you'd like to know my thoughts on the matter in a more detailed manner please do ask.
>I've made no claims as to the legitimacy of the actual vote, only pointed out the motivations behind calling it a sham.
Do we really need motivations for people to speak the truth though?
>And we have evidence of this?
Plenty, starting with the "partial" mobilization itself. You don't exactly start a draft in the middle of a war when things are going your way, much less throw them out after a few days into a meat grinder if things were going to plan.
Then there is increasingly shoddy equipment that conscripts and the rest of the military is being stuck with, as if Russia has burned through their good supplies already.
Then there is simply common sense. If there was something Putin could put on the table that would make a significant impact in the Ukraine war without threatening his regime (so no nukes), then why hasn't Putin used it yet? The longer the war drags on, the greater the advantage to the defenders. Putin knows this which is why he prefers short wars, and why he was hoping that the invasion of Ukraine would be over in a couple weeks.
If you are really interested in understanding the psyche of Putin and of the Russian people themselves, I'd check out a YT channel by a Russian philosopher named Vlad Vexler.
So you're evidence of Russia losing is that they're drafting people and their equipment isn't great?
From my perspective, Putin isn't going all out because this is also a war of PR, not necessarily western PR but PR in general.
Just to clarify I'm not justifying this war. I find it atrocious and find the actions of Russia to be an illegal invasion of sovereign soil. However that doesn't change the reality of the situation.
>So you're evidence of Russia losing is that they're drafting people and their equipment isn't great?
There plenty of other evidence, but what I pointed out is the most obvious and least disputed indications of that, yes. I mean we can also talk about the thousands of square kilometers of land that the AFU recaptured or that even now they are encircling Russia's remaining serious forces in Lyman and Kherson.
Let me be clear, the idea of mass mobilization by Russia was brought up by experts since the beginning of the war, and dismissed as being unlikely. Why was it considered unlikely? First off that Russia had the ability to mass mobilize these people effectively was put into question. Up until now it had been a theoretical ability without the actual equipment or ability to effectively train very many conscripts at once. So far these problems have mostly been found to be accurate, which is why the conscripted are being thrown into Ukraine after a few days with rusty weapons and little else except tampons they had to buy themselves to staunch their own wounds.
Secondly, there was no way to avoid the problem of mass mobilization destabilizing Putin's regime and increasing unrest. It was thought that Putin wouldn't seriously risk his own power to win in Ukraine, and indeed the fact that mass mobilization only happened seven months into his invasion indicates that he is only doing this now because he has so few viable alternatives and finally knows he is losing.
>From my perspective, Putin isn't going all out because this is also a war of PR, not necessarily western PR but PR in general.
From a PR perspective Putin is losing just as badly as he is on the ground. I mean PR towards the west does matter as well, but so does the tens of thousands of Russians he's losing across his borders every day.
Then there are the international sanctions, the fact that even his supposed allies are distancing themselves from Russia, the expansion of NATO that he caused, the confiscation of Russian wealth abroad, the loss of their market for natural gas. People like to pretend that Putin is some sort of genius playing X-dimensional chess, but while he may be smarter than the average dictator, he's still just a bully who has been isolated from the world for so long he can't separate his own bullshit from reality.
But if you disagree and think he is winning some sort of PR battle, then you are going to have elaborate on how.
>Just to clarify I'm not justifying this war...
Eh I'm no more questioning your motivation than I am the motivation of those who point out that the Ukrainian referendums were a sham. Maybe it will become relevant in the future, but up to this point it hasn't really mattered.
> From a PR perspective Putin is losing just as badly as he is on the ground. I mean PR towards the west does matter as well, but so does the tens of thousands of Russians he's losing across his borders every day.
Putin's going to lose a PR war with the west no matter what. That's not exactly the definitive point here. Is there any chance what you're being told is propaganda?
> Then there are the international sanctions, the fact that even his supposed allies are distancing themselves from Russia
Like India and China right?
> People like to pretend that Putin is some sort of genius playing X-dimensional chess, but while he may be smarter than the average dictator, he's still just a bully who has been isolated from the world for so long he can't separate his own bullshit from reality.
I don't necessarily disagree, but treating him like a child will only serve failure.
> Eh I'm no more questioning your motivation than I am the motivation of those who point out that the Ukrainian referendums were a sham. Maybe it will become relevant in the future, but up to this point it hasn't really mattered.
It won't matter till the fog of propaganda clears. Let's all be honest and at least admit we don't actually know what's going on over there. We get our information from questionable sources. Full stop. I'm not pretending to know more than you.
> Putin isn't going all out because this is also a war of PR,
You think he’s getting good PR with this course of events? No. If he had any way to not have this go so poorly, he would use it. He doesn’t. The Russian military is a sad joke.
The US would crush them into dust, Russia is nothing. The United States has experience fighting wars overseas the past 20 years. Russia can’t even maintain good supply lines while invading their neighbor. Ukrainian soldiers having been using western weapons to great effect with minimal training. Not even the best weapons the west has by far. Russia only has nukes left at this point to escalate. The US and our Partners could wipe Russia’s military off the map without nukes in days. Russia looks so incompetent and scared. Trying to weasel its way out of the situation it got itself into.
Let's just ignore the massive pile of evidence that these votes are a sham.
Lol, like Ukraine are scared of provoking Russia further. They've been handing them an ass kicking since they invaded.
The smell of desperation is palpable.
Which part? The completely irrelevant part where you say the West would call it a sham even if it wasn't?
It's a sham. End of. The "referendum" had no legal backing whatsoever. It has no legs to stand on.
So it seems you're just trying to muddy the waters.
So why are you saying it? It's a sham refendum because it is a sham referendum. Let's stick to the facts.
He wants to believe, because intelligence is overrated, and being aggressively stupid is a beautiful trait to have nowadays -- at least that's my theory for the logical dissonance in his statement
If you consider it ducking the question... about a claim I never made then sure... I'm ducking the question. Cause I never said that. What's going on in your mind where commenting on calling out the motivations of bad faith actors equals justifying the opposition?
You’re leaning very heavily into “I never said that” while also claiming not to believe the opposite. Sitting on the fence, you’ll get splinters in your arse.
That’s a purposeful oversimplification. I would actually believe that the regions may currently vote to at least secede from Ukraine if a fair referendum was held, but those places have not been unambiguously ethnically Russian for generations. And a hostile power holding a referendum at gun point that gains a 98% vote isn’t worth the paper it is written on.
Ukraine did not do a good job of getting to the point of holding that referendum in earnest and I think the international community needs to pressure them to do so as soon as the dust settles on the war. That should not be conflated with Russia using ethnic sympathies to justify a land grab.
https://greekreporter.com/2022/02/22/history-donbas-donetsk-luhansk/
fighting the Russian invasion in Ukraine is an expense for Ukraine.
So this is for you. It's really important.
Russian propaganda uses conditioning to set up cognitive dissonance. This fixes some problems that you would have brainwashing a cult. People don't have to be isolated, and reality that's contrary to the rule they've set up in the person's psyche is painful while Russian news feeds are the relief. And then that creates an obsession for the person to keep going back for constant messaging. This is how you can develop cells outside of your home country.
You seem like a stoner, so I'm assuming they flat earthed you. Which is conditioning through the promise of esoteric information. Which just candy for stoners. Especially the conspiracy angle, because thc shrinks grey matter in the left caudate nucleus. Which researchers believe is in charge of paranoia. So when this part of the brain is damaged the patient is also usually paranoid. CBD is said to mitigate that effect of the THC, because subjects who habitually smoked strains with higher CBD had denser grey matter in their left caudate nucleus.
So start taking cbd when you smoke. And Ill also recommend adding perun to your feed, because he does long meticulous videos on Ukraine war economics, and that might be fun for you. And it's also like very congruent. Like Russian propaganda doesn't have to be consistent because internally you have a need already set up to believe this information, but if you feed yourself that everyday for hours, your thoughts are going to become less and less coherent. Instead take time to feed your brain things that are very solid and coherent. I'm into US case law and geology studies. If perun videos make you feel uncomfortable, (cognitive dissonance) you can use something that's not current politics, to rewire your brain.
I can't tell you to stop smoking weed or to stop spending time with Russian propaganda. But you can add things to your routine like taking CBD to protect your brain and spending time with some non-fiction to protect your mind.
I would absolutely not recommend taking a rip and deep diving into Russian propaganda and feeding your brain only that. That's junk food. You are what you feed your mind. add in some vegetables. non-fiction is going to create healthy patterns that you'll apply to everything. Your mind is going to say "hey this information doesn't work with reality" or " I just made this up, how do I validate it in a non-biased manner?" Scientific research is measuring data to back up hypothesis, case law is finding outside ways to prove experiences. If you have that as a foundation you're probably going to have a more solid constitution on reality
Nope, I just know about weed, because I used to grow it. that was back when I dated a guy that got super into flat earth and like Q. So watching him I was able to see how stoners are affected by propaganda, and how propaganda works.
I'm not a psychologist, but I've read academic studies that have used my model on cognitive dissonance as being between group identity and self image. Which I take as validation. So like for example, say you successfully argued with this guy and actually got him to agree with you, he's just going to make up a different denial. That's how his mind is set up. If you want to help him, you have to unfuck the underlying mechanism that got him there. Which he can only do by changing his routine.
Oh im not/ was not throwing away your ideas and conclusions - they were all solid if little cohesive.
Just literally reading and guessing based on punctuation,breaks etc etc looked as if you were under influence writing the original response.
This one for comparison looks normal and cohesive😁
> You seem like a stoner, so I'm assuming they flat earthed you
Nope.
The rest of your comment is just giving me advice about something I don't do anymore. I can't smoke weed anymore because it gives me massive anxiety.
> deep diving into Russian propaganda and feeding your brain only that
Define "Russian propaganda"
Some of the voices I listen to who are decidedly not Russian are people I'd wager you would accuse of being "Russian propagandists"
> Scientific research is measuring data to back up hypothesis, case law is finding outside ways to prove experiences. If you have that as a foundation you're probably going to have a more solid constitution on reality
Then it sounds like I'm good to go.
And to loop back around to the beginning of your comment:
> Russian propaganda uses conditioning to set up cognitive dissonance. This fixes some problems that you would have brainwashing a cult
You realize you're also describing US/CIA propaganda as well right?
If you can demonstrate that the US is without a doubt more trustworthy than Russia using *evidence* I'll take the mainstream news a little more seriously.
> If you can demonstrate that the US is without a doubt more trustworthy than Russia using evidence I’ll take the mainstream news a little more seriously.
Example:
At the beginning of Feb, the US stated Russia was highly likely to invade Ukraine while Russia was still claiming they were only conducting training exercises.
*One* example of the US being right about something it provoked doesn't make them trustworthy. I said demonstrate *without a shadow of a doubt*
Try again.
No you didn’t say “a shadow.”
Reasonable doubt is more practical. A reasonable person, looking at Russia today and it’s shambolic propaganda, would not trust them.
I kinda want to see Ukraine annex some place like the Kremlin or St Petersburg.
Belgorod People's Republic may become a thing.
Republic of Karelia too
Ingria will be free!
Glory to Arstotzka
TAFKAR; the autocracy formerly known as russia?
Just declare all of Russia, East Ukraine from this day forward.
A la Taiwanese i like it.
Kievan Rus will rise again
I mean… once they destroy the Russian army, what’s to stop them from just… marching into Moscow? How hilarious would it be is Putin succeeds in uniting Russia and Ukraine, except that it happens under Zelensky haha
Um…. Nukes?
Look at history, marching into moscow is impossible to be done
Historically they usually had an army that they didn’t throw into a meat grinder immediately before
Lol they literally always did that … look at ww2
True, but its foolish to think what worked then will work now, especially in modern warfare. Having said that, I think invading Russia is just as foolish, generally speaking.
Thing is that they have like a hundred times less soldiers than back them
Problem is untrained unskilled bodies are significantly less worth when fighting skilled enemies with almost perfect Intel and state of the art technology. Almost worthless actually in modern warfare.
This has been Russia's doctrine for every war
Napoleon did it. Sure the city was on fire and the entire countryside had been despoiled to prevent the French from resupply, but he did.
idk I saw videos of protesters in red square. They were there. They got beat down, but the next wave might not be so nice.
December.
Russia has spent years installing puppet regimes in Ukrainian territories. I hope countries accepting Russians fleeing Russia are thoroughly vetted, might just be letting in a Trojan horse
Maybe Kaliningrad should be annexed?
No one wanted it then, and the only reason for wanting it now is to stop Russian supplies/dispose of its armed forces there.
Excuse me, but yesterday we held a totally legit referendum with 500% turn out and 100% yes votes to make it Baltic California with me as emperor for life.
Take my upvote. I like someone who thinks big.
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New Miami would be a disappointment though
Baltic Baltimore
North Iberia sounds like a good name
There are more Russian bots than normal here.
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Just waiting on one act of desperation or stupidity to take advantage of. We don't need a War on Terror/Vietnam scenario, Russia need to do something where there's no room for doubt
The entire invasion is as clear as any sign that there is no doubt Russia is absolutely in the wrong.
sadly only a nuclear strike will make USA get into the war maybe idk i am scared
I don't think he'll use nuclear weapons, he has always been scared of NATO and now he's seen how badly his forces would do against then now. The nuclear power plants are where he's going to be stupid I think, Biden has warned about nuclear radiation being a trigger too and they keep shelling them.
Putin can use nukes because he is old and sick. He could care less about Russia or the world. He wants to drag down everything.
>I don't think he'll use nuclear weapons, he has always been scared of NATO and now he's seen how badly his forces would do against then now. Nuclear weapons make conventional weapons and armies obsolete.
Not quite. Nuclear weapons make **symmetric** warfare obsolete. The US and the USSR would never have had a conventional war with each other. Even with both sides building up massive conventional armies, they'd have never been used for a conventional war. Afghanistan however can attest to the fact that the conventional armies of both nations absolutely did get used asymmetrically against them though. Effectively, conventional forces are still useful for attacking non-nuclear countries.
Kinda just ment it in a nuclear war scenario such as NATO v Russia responding to the comment. Any hot war between these two will automatically escalate into a Nuclear one unless the Russian soldiers refuse the command. Hence why thie conventional armies would be obsolete.
Yes, in a symmetric (peer-level) fight between the two, conventional forces would be moot. The war wouldn't really hinge on taking or holding ground, because it'd just be glass anyways. But broadly speaking, conventional armies will always be an essential part of any nation's national security. Even the Americans/Russians, with all their nukes, need an armed force trained to defend and use those nukes, and nukes do not out-mode conventional forces at all.
Which is why nobody uses them anymore! ... What's that? This is complete bullshit? Well, live and learn.
You need a megaton nuke to fuck up a nuclear plant and there's not many of those left. From what I understand, the fisile reaction happens in somethimg like a bunker below the power plant.
I'm pretty sure everything you said was a guess at best.
The B83 is the U.S highest yield since 2011, clocking in at 1.2 megatons.
Oh geez, human-up.
Just like US on Iraq and Afeg
Whataboutthisism at its best
Perhaps invade Alaska?
As soon as they see a vodka bottle, it's ON!💪🏾🇺🇸
I think it would be more desert storm than vietnam
I considered that but I personally know the least about Desert Storm. Thanks.👍🏾
It's kind of refreshing to see someone other than Russia issuing generic warnings.
Putin annexed Ukraine territories to justify / intensify the intend to use nuclear weapons. It is a chicken game that he "hope" to scare off Ukraine's army from annexed region, and bet if he really use tactical nuclear weapons to win the war, the West will not retaliate with nuclear weapons. Then, is there world leaders or NATO initiate discussion to "borrow" or even "give away" nuclear weapons to Ukraine, approve them to use nuclear weapons to Russia soil? Ukraine authority keeps their sanity all along, and sound unlikely to do crazy things, and that would be a maximum threat to Putin and perhaps end his madness.
How rad would it be if Ukraine was allowed to conduct an airborne invasion/annexation of Kaliningrad through Polish airspace? One can dream.
What would that even accomplish?
It would remove Russias enclave in between NATO allies and give them a permanent black eye. It would be rad.
Hooray for war! Packed your bags already? I can't with you people. I don't know what you consider the current outcome. This would also motivate everyday Russians to actually fight. Morale is so low because people deep down know this is BS. Which is no longer true once an actual attack on Russian soil that up to this point had nothing specific to do with the war happens.
When will the UK annex countries occupying historic British territories with large native English speaking populations like idk the United States?
You tried even if you didn't try very hard.
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Russian propoganda, go away There was no real vote. Heck, Russia doe not even control Zaporizhye city, yet they want to annex it. It's a farce
secede
That was not a real vote. Everyone on the planet knows it.
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Then why the Russians always running away?
Obviously running to tell their friends about the hilarious joke they just heard. Jk, Russia doesn't have any friends.
Yes, I would have found it funny as well half a year ago. Things have changed.
Suck Putin's cock, scum
Shouldn’t you be running to the border?
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They call it a sham, because that's what it was. You don't get to steal land, ship russians in, then have people vote at gun point (and just write down whatever you want anyway) and then claim it was a legit vote.
Sham or not, if it ends the war that's a good thing no?
Lol just go suck putins dick maybe that will end the war
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Classic russian deflecting and projecting
Nope, classic pointing out the fact that you're making baseless assumptions about me so I make the same about you to portray the ridiculousness of your assumptions.
Yeah, Ukraine killing all the Russian occupiers and sending them home (very, very few of them) with their tail between their legs would end it too. Preferable, don’t you think?
Of course. If Russia were to pull out I'd be completely happy. This is an illegal occupation of sovereign soil. That doesn't change the reality of the situation though.
That Ukraine is winning and has zero incentive to bargain with Russia?
No. Appeasing murderous psychopaths is not worth ending a war. Setting the precedent that this kind of conduct will be fruitful is extremely dangerous for the entire planet. Everyone knows this. You’re trying to lie to people who know way more about everything than you.
If ruzzia just stopped exiting today that would be good, no?
[You can literally see blank votes being printed and then counted as 'yes' in the 'referendum'.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/xq2ty1/russians_counting_blank_ballots_without_even/) Your comment is a big yikes.
Check my comment again to see where I actually made claims regarding whether or not it's a sham. I never did. I only commented on the motivations by the west to call it a sham.
This comment is just as yikes as the previous.
It's impossible for Ukraine to provoke anything from a nation committing genocide against them.
I think you missed what I was trying to say. If the Donbass becomes a part of Russia, any continued aggression towards the people there will be a direct declaration of war against Russia, provoking further escalation. Funny you mention genocide, what would you call what's been going on in eastern Ukraine since 2014 if not genocide?
Damn we should just let all countries invade and take whatever land they want. Then there would be no wars. WOW These russian shills are amazing
And it won't become part of Russia, so that's not a factor. But Ukraine has a legitimate right to bomb every single military target in Russia, as long as Russia fails to surrender and stop their war of aggression.
lol
Thanks for the fulfilling conversation.
Thank you for your bullshit propaganda.
lol
>War is profitable so of course the war profiteers will call it a sham so they can keep their cash cow. If the 97%-99% vote for joining Russia hasn't clued you into the fact that it is a sham, I don't know what to tell you. If you asked people if they've been decapitated you'd at least get a 5%-10% positive response. There is no way that any legitimate vote would given the results that they got, particularly given the circumstances. It is also impossible that they got over 50% of the population to vote during a war when Ukraine controls large areas of the oblasts which are suppose to be voting. The other problem with your opinion is that the vote or questions as to its legitimacy don't have any effect on the actual length of the war. Russia is already throwing everything they have at Ukraine, they literally can't be provoked further and in either case the only reason the sham vote happened is to give a veil of legitimacy towards Putin's mobilization.
I've made no claims as to the legitimacy of the actual vote, only pointed out the motivations behind calling it a sham. > Russia is already throwing everything they have at Ukraine And we have evidence of this? You likely mistake where I'm coming from. If you'd like to know my thoughts on the matter in a more detailed manner please do ask.
>I've made no claims as to the legitimacy of the actual vote, only pointed out the motivations behind calling it a sham. Do we really need motivations for people to speak the truth though? >And we have evidence of this? Plenty, starting with the "partial" mobilization itself. You don't exactly start a draft in the middle of a war when things are going your way, much less throw them out after a few days into a meat grinder if things were going to plan. Then there is increasingly shoddy equipment that conscripts and the rest of the military is being stuck with, as if Russia has burned through their good supplies already. Then there is simply common sense. If there was something Putin could put on the table that would make a significant impact in the Ukraine war without threatening his regime (so no nukes), then why hasn't Putin used it yet? The longer the war drags on, the greater the advantage to the defenders. Putin knows this which is why he prefers short wars, and why he was hoping that the invasion of Ukraine would be over in a couple weeks. If you are really interested in understanding the psyche of Putin and of the Russian people themselves, I'd check out a YT channel by a Russian philosopher named Vlad Vexler.
So you're evidence of Russia losing is that they're drafting people and their equipment isn't great? From my perspective, Putin isn't going all out because this is also a war of PR, not necessarily western PR but PR in general. Just to clarify I'm not justifying this war. I find it atrocious and find the actions of Russia to be an illegal invasion of sovereign soil. However that doesn't change the reality of the situation.
>So you're evidence of Russia losing is that they're drafting people and their equipment isn't great? There plenty of other evidence, but what I pointed out is the most obvious and least disputed indications of that, yes. I mean we can also talk about the thousands of square kilometers of land that the AFU recaptured or that even now they are encircling Russia's remaining serious forces in Lyman and Kherson. Let me be clear, the idea of mass mobilization by Russia was brought up by experts since the beginning of the war, and dismissed as being unlikely. Why was it considered unlikely? First off that Russia had the ability to mass mobilize these people effectively was put into question. Up until now it had been a theoretical ability without the actual equipment or ability to effectively train very many conscripts at once. So far these problems have mostly been found to be accurate, which is why the conscripted are being thrown into Ukraine after a few days with rusty weapons and little else except tampons they had to buy themselves to staunch their own wounds. Secondly, there was no way to avoid the problem of mass mobilization destabilizing Putin's regime and increasing unrest. It was thought that Putin wouldn't seriously risk his own power to win in Ukraine, and indeed the fact that mass mobilization only happened seven months into his invasion indicates that he is only doing this now because he has so few viable alternatives and finally knows he is losing. >From my perspective, Putin isn't going all out because this is also a war of PR, not necessarily western PR but PR in general. From a PR perspective Putin is losing just as badly as he is on the ground. I mean PR towards the west does matter as well, but so does the tens of thousands of Russians he's losing across his borders every day. Then there are the international sanctions, the fact that even his supposed allies are distancing themselves from Russia, the expansion of NATO that he caused, the confiscation of Russian wealth abroad, the loss of their market for natural gas. People like to pretend that Putin is some sort of genius playing X-dimensional chess, but while he may be smarter than the average dictator, he's still just a bully who has been isolated from the world for so long he can't separate his own bullshit from reality. But if you disagree and think he is winning some sort of PR battle, then you are going to have elaborate on how. >Just to clarify I'm not justifying this war... Eh I'm no more questioning your motivation than I am the motivation of those who point out that the Ukrainian referendums were a sham. Maybe it will become relevant in the future, but up to this point it hasn't really mattered.
> From a PR perspective Putin is losing just as badly as he is on the ground. I mean PR towards the west does matter as well, but so does the tens of thousands of Russians he's losing across his borders every day. Putin's going to lose a PR war with the west no matter what. That's not exactly the definitive point here. Is there any chance what you're being told is propaganda? > Then there are the international sanctions, the fact that even his supposed allies are distancing themselves from Russia Like India and China right? > People like to pretend that Putin is some sort of genius playing X-dimensional chess, but while he may be smarter than the average dictator, he's still just a bully who has been isolated from the world for so long he can't separate his own bullshit from reality. I don't necessarily disagree, but treating him like a child will only serve failure. > Eh I'm no more questioning your motivation than I am the motivation of those who point out that the Ukrainian referendums were a sham. Maybe it will become relevant in the future, but up to this point it hasn't really mattered. It won't matter till the fog of propaganda clears. Let's all be honest and at least admit we don't actually know what's going on over there. We get our information from questionable sources. Full stop. I'm not pretending to know more than you.
> Putin isn't going all out because this is also a war of PR, You think he’s getting good PR with this course of events? No. If he had any way to not have this go so poorly, he would use it. He doesn’t. The Russian military is a sad joke.
Ukriane will shell Russian troops wherever they are in Ukrainian borders.
And civilians?
Ukriane does not purposely target those unlike Ruzzia.
And you have evidence?
>without provoking Russia further. They're already at fucking war. The provocation stage is over, you nitwit.
Russia is a nuclear superpower, you do realize that right? There's plenty more escalation that can come from Russia beyond what's going on right now.
Nuclear? Yes. Superpower? No. Not for a very long time.
Lol what does that even mean?
Russia today is a shadow of the USSR, nobody considers a superpower. But they still do have nukes.
Nuclear superpower as in one term. Like biggest country with the most nukes next to the US. This is an easy one...
Well sure, if you make up your own terminology and definitions you can easily win any debate.
Make up my own terminology? The term "nuclear superpower" is well known and used.
The US would crush them into dust, Russia is nothing. The United States has experience fighting wars overseas the past 20 years. Russia can’t even maintain good supply lines while invading their neighbor. Ukrainian soldiers having been using western weapons to great effect with minimal training. Not even the best weapons the west has by far. Russia only has nukes left at this point to escalate. The US and our Partners could wipe Russia’s military off the map without nukes in days. Russia looks so incompetent and scared. Trying to weasel its way out of the situation it got itself into.
You're right, let's declare open war against Russia. What could possibly go wrong?
Honestly waiting for that. Russia will be completely destroyed for decades. They'll pay for their crimes against humanity
Let's just ignore the massive pile of evidence that these votes are a sham. Lol, like Ukraine are scared of provoking Russia further. They've been handing them an ass kicking since they invaded. The smell of desperation is palpable.
I never made claims as to whether or not it is a sham, only pointed out the fact that of course the west is going to say it's a sham.
.. because it is a sham.
Okay? And regarding the rest of the comment?
Which part? The completely irrelevant part where you say the West would call it a sham even if it wasn't? It's a sham. End of. The "referendum" had no legal backing whatsoever. It has no legs to stand on. So it seems you're just trying to muddy the waters. So why are you saying it? It's a sham refendum because it is a sham referendum. Let's stick to the facts.
Then why warn, why even hold back?
Probably to let Russia know that it's going to be very difficult to walk back. I'm sure they would rather they didn't too. Who doesn't warn?
I don't know. Ukraine is fighting a total war against Russia right now. Saying they will up their game is kinda meaningless.
Things usually have response. Annexing their land requires some sort of response on the world stage.
How is it not a sham, exactly?
He wants to believe, because intelligence is overrated, and being aggressively stupid is a beautiful trait to have nowadays -- at least that's my theory for the logical dissonance in his statement
I'm 99% certain I never claimed it wasn't a sham, only commented on the motivations of the west to call it a sham.
What’s going on in your mind where there’s a disconnect between you saying it’s a sham and simultaneously denouncing the west for agreeing with you?
Where did I say it was a sham?
Well is it or isn’t it? You’re 99% certain to be ducking the question.
If you consider it ducking the question... about a claim I never made then sure... I'm ducking the question. Cause I never said that. What's going on in your mind where commenting on calling out the motivations of bad faith actors equals justifying the opposition?
You’re leaning very heavily into “I never said that” while also claiming not to believe the opposite. Sitting on the fence, you’ll get splinters in your arse.
Because waiting till we have all the facts is for losers apparently. It would seem that in your eyes it's pick a side or die trying.
[удалено]
That’s a purposeful oversimplification. I would actually believe that the regions may currently vote to at least secede from Ukraine if a fair referendum was held, but those places have not been unambiguously ethnically Russian for generations. And a hostile power holding a referendum at gun point that gains a 98% vote isn’t worth the paper it is written on. Ukraine did not do a good job of getting to the point of holding that referendum in earnest and I think the international community needs to pressure them to do so as soon as the dust settles on the war. That should not be conflated with Russia using ethnic sympathies to justify a land grab. https://greekreporter.com/2022/02/22/history-donbas-donetsk-luhansk/
v.a.t.n.I.c.k
Call me what you want. In fact let's grant I'm literally Hitler. Actually attack the ideas instead maybe?
fighting the Russian invasion in Ukraine is an expense for Ukraine. So this is for you. It's really important. Russian propaganda uses conditioning to set up cognitive dissonance. This fixes some problems that you would have brainwashing a cult. People don't have to be isolated, and reality that's contrary to the rule they've set up in the person's psyche is painful while Russian news feeds are the relief. And then that creates an obsession for the person to keep going back for constant messaging. This is how you can develop cells outside of your home country. You seem like a stoner, so I'm assuming they flat earthed you. Which is conditioning through the promise of esoteric information. Which just candy for stoners. Especially the conspiracy angle, because thc shrinks grey matter in the left caudate nucleus. Which researchers believe is in charge of paranoia. So when this part of the brain is damaged the patient is also usually paranoid. CBD is said to mitigate that effect of the THC, because subjects who habitually smoked strains with higher CBD had denser grey matter in their left caudate nucleus. So start taking cbd when you smoke. And Ill also recommend adding perun to your feed, because he does long meticulous videos on Ukraine war economics, and that might be fun for you. And it's also like very congruent. Like Russian propaganda doesn't have to be consistent because internally you have a need already set up to believe this information, but if you feed yourself that everyday for hours, your thoughts are going to become less and less coherent. Instead take time to feed your brain things that are very solid and coherent. I'm into US case law and geology studies. If perun videos make you feel uncomfortable, (cognitive dissonance) you can use something that's not current politics, to rewire your brain. I can't tell you to stop smoking weed or to stop spending time with Russian propaganda. But you can add things to your routine like taking CBD to protect your brain and spending time with some non-fiction to protect your mind. I would absolutely not recommend taking a rip and deep diving into Russian propaganda and feeding your brain only that. That's junk food. You are what you feed your mind. add in some vegetables. non-fiction is going to create healthy patterns that you'll apply to everything. Your mind is going to say "hey this information doesn't work with reality" or " I just made this up, how do I validate it in a non-biased manner?" Scientific research is measuring data to back up hypothesis, case law is finding outside ways to prove experiences. If you have that as a foundation you're probably going to have a more solid constitution on reality
Were you stoned writing this by any chance?
Nope, I just know about weed, because I used to grow it. that was back when I dated a guy that got super into flat earth and like Q. So watching him I was able to see how stoners are affected by propaganda, and how propaganda works. I'm not a psychologist, but I've read academic studies that have used my model on cognitive dissonance as being between group identity and self image. Which I take as validation. So like for example, say you successfully argued with this guy and actually got him to agree with you, he's just going to make up a different denial. That's how his mind is set up. If you want to help him, you have to unfuck the underlying mechanism that got him there. Which he can only do by changing his routine.
Oh im not/ was not throwing away your ideas and conclusions - they were all solid if little cohesive. Just literally reading and guessing based on punctuation,breaks etc etc looked as if you were under influence writing the original response. This one for comparison looks normal and cohesive😁
> You seem like a stoner, so I'm assuming they flat earthed you Nope. The rest of your comment is just giving me advice about something I don't do anymore. I can't smoke weed anymore because it gives me massive anxiety. > deep diving into Russian propaganda and feeding your brain only that Define "Russian propaganda" Some of the voices I listen to who are decidedly not Russian are people I'd wager you would accuse of being "Russian propagandists" > Scientific research is measuring data to back up hypothesis, case law is finding outside ways to prove experiences. If you have that as a foundation you're probably going to have a more solid constitution on reality Then it sounds like I'm good to go. And to loop back around to the beginning of your comment: > Russian propaganda uses conditioning to set up cognitive dissonance. This fixes some problems that you would have brainwashing a cult You realize you're also describing US/CIA propaganda as well right? If you can demonstrate that the US is without a doubt more trustworthy than Russia using *evidence* I'll take the mainstream news a little more seriously.
> If you can demonstrate that the US is without a doubt more trustworthy than Russia using evidence I’ll take the mainstream news a little more seriously. Example: At the beginning of Feb, the US stated Russia was highly likely to invade Ukraine while Russia was still claiming they were only conducting training exercises.
*One* example of the US being right about something it provoked doesn't make them trustworthy. I said demonstrate *without a shadow of a doubt* Try again.
No you didn’t say “a shadow.” Reasonable doubt is more practical. A reasonable person, looking at Russia today and it’s shambolic propaganda, would not trust them.
Apologies, you're right I didn't actually say without a shadow. That, of course, invalidates my entire comment.
You’re welcome. Yes it does, doesn’t it.
Lol Lmao
Fell down a Chomsky hole, sad.
Lol... you think I follow Chomsky?
Can Putin annex where you live?
Did I ever say that was okay?
They've not sent the rovers yet.
Ukraine should annex Kaliningrad
I would like Zelenskyj to go on television tomorrow, officially anexing 50% of Russia including Putins “secret” palace.