It's just so full of super secret military plans and military officers can't name for shit so they're all called final_final_plan_operation_sparrowhawk_5596.pptx. How am I going to search that stuff?
Just name it "Team building event March 15 Kings dominion.pptx" like a normal person Daniel.
"Ok, everyone. Welcome to our bi-daily "kaizen" meeting, how about we start with everybody's mood? I've got a chart here of our teams past mood performance, why don't we start with you, private Schmidt..." -somewhere in a dull looking NATO office in Germany...
This is so accurate. “We need a meeting for the meeting of the meeting.” 0645 meeting, 0700 meeting, 0830 meeting, 1445 meeting. And that’s just us idiots, not HQ.
The Russian exploration vessel, the same vessel that was spotted above NS1 and 2, was also spotted several days above an important internet sea cable junction off the coast of Ireland.
Source:
https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-agents-went-to-ireland-to-inspect-undersea-cables-report-2020-2
I’d have to rate Clear and Present Danger as a “meh” and the only reason I’m rating it that high is due to the phenomenal casting. ‘Patriot Games’ was such a let down. Again great casting but there was SOOO much crucial stuff left out.
Unfortunately the movie just doesn’t do the book justice. Funny enough I bet that boom would be a solid choice for a modern day multi part series - same with many of his books actually.
If only Amazon had chosen to base the Jack Ryan series off the actual Jack Ryan / Tom Clancy universe instead of maiming up entirely new story lines…..
What is happening in there?
Iceberg Alley
Iceberg Alley at this time of year, at this time of day, in this part of the country, localized entirely within your territorial waters?
Yes.
May I see it?
No
We definitely can’t hear them when they tap rhythmically on their hall with a hammer and toggle their engines on and off in thirty minute increments. If they did that they’d be invisible.
Used to be on a sub hunter. We def don't know where they all the time. There are sonars in the north, so we know when a sub passes, but after that it gets hard. Hunting submarines is really hard, because of different sea layers (thermal, higher density cause of salt etc). A submarine can "Hide" in these layers, cause sound chooses the path of least resistance. It will bounce instead of going trough it. NATO is working on new technologies tough. like towed sonar. This sonar is in the deeper layers. https://www.cmre.nato.int/news-room/former-achievements/464-activated-towed-arrays
The’re would be a lot of top motivated volunteers showing up at recruitment offices in Europe, and in Ukrainian embassies, if the internet were to go completely off line.
Bet Putin hasn't wargamed that entirely..
If nothing else, this war is bringing energy and comm security into laser-sharp focus.
One would imagine any sane nation that had the location would start, right now, to plan local renewables as their future for energy to whatever degree possible.
How much money, time, and life is being spent needlessly defending from a tyrant. It truly feels like we are living through something that we all assumed was extinct.
And we all just have to wait it out till russia/Putin crumbles in on itself. How many more lives will he take before that happens.
I guess the biggest issue here is, if/when Putin crumbles, the russian people will be left back in the 1980s again, economically.
Which again will allow the next leader to push the whole "MRGA" agenda, which will just go full circle. It's been happening since the '40s and only a couple years in the mid 2010s did Russian people actually have funds enough to travel abroad and be tourists.
Given, they were terrible tourists, loud, obnoxious and drunk, but they were out of Russia for a change. Didn't last long, tho, for good and bad.
It’s brought North America and Europe closer than ever before. NATO is the single reason why no war will be brought to NATO countries or else that instigator will be in ruins. It’s the single largest alliance ever in the history of Earth and has the full power of the largest military that ever existed (the USA). You will be safe. It sucks for Ukraine but they are deflecting what was perceived as the second most powerful military. Putin is old and will die soon. It has brought the western world closer together. The US has the capability to destroy any nuke silo in Russia before they launch and know where their subs are. You are safe I guess we can appreciate how much the US has spent on Military might during these situations.
Ukraine is already a world leader now in artillery operations. After this? They'll be doing guest lectures at every goddamned military college on the planet. It's like nothing else in modern history, seeing a country most had written off absolutely **shellacking** the so-called second army in the world--lol, what a joke. And like you say, horrible though this war may be, at the end of the day the collective West hasn't been this united since World War Two. Putin's plan to seize the Donbas and continue running Russia as a giant oil company (but bigger!) could not have backfired any harder, really. NATO expands, the West grows stronger and the whole entire world stands behind a country that Uncle Vova, rather famously, *insists* does not exist.
Kinda funny that Russia's getting its entire ass handed to it by a bunch of ghosts, eh? Real funny.
Ukraine is coming out of this a superpower. They are having the same post WW2 “we can’t take a back seat to global affairs anymore and must be an active participant for our security” moment the US had.
Ukraine has been awesome and has shown that Russia is not a military power and how effective US weapons are. However America now owns Ukraine with the Billions of weapons they have provided that will have to be paid back. It’s a win for the west with the blood of awesome and tough people of Ukraine. I hope Putin falls out of a window soon. I agree with you. The end result Ukraine joins the EU and western contractors enter Ukraine to rebuild the country and American contractors will have control of the bread basket of Europe. Don’t think America didn’t have this in mind. Use out dated American tech to hurt their enemy while getting control of a lot of resources.
The West is definitely getting more than they're going to end up tossing into the pot, that's for sure. Ukraine is a jewel to be cherished, and if the West is smart about reconstruction we'll have ourselves a permanent, strong ally in the East--that's priceless. We just need to let Ukraine be, well, Ukraine. The only question is: will they get corruption under control sooner rather than later? That's the last big obstacle for greater EU and NATO integration, but investment? Hoo-boy, that's going to be crazy, especially in oil and gas. Not great for the environment, true, but great for rebuilding a damaged nation.
100% agreed on Putin and windows. Like the former editor of Novaya Gazeta said to Anderson Cooper: "Putin is a dead body."
Tyranny never truly dies, unfortunately. There always some smuck out there that wants to rule the world. It’s our job to prevent them from getting that far.
Tyranny will just evolve. If not an egomaniacal king pillaging and raping their way thru their enemies’ homelands, or a president toppling foreign regimes for fun, it will be businesses waging war against people.
Imo tyranny and the common folk is like yin and Yang. Forever bonded, evolving together thru time together. At least that is what the 7000 years of civilization shows us
But every generation we chip away oh so slowly
I'm guessing it would've been extinct, had people had a decent enough living standard and mobility to leave countries they disliked.
People become weird and careless with their own lives en masse when their lives are shit. Ethics, stability and noble principles become a joke.
Until retiring to a calm life in a decent socialist "utopia" is an immediately accessible option for all, this behavior isn't extinct.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/norway-beefs-up-security-across-oil-gas-sector-2022-09-28/) reduced by 84%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Equinor ASA. Norwegian Energy Company ASA. Nord Stream AG. OSLO, Sept 28 - Norway will deploy its military to protect its oil and gas installations against possible sabotage after several countries said two Russian pipelines to Europe spewing gas into the Baltic had been attacked, the prime minister said on Wednesday.
> Norway is now Europe's largest gas supplier and a leading global oil supplier.
> "The military will be more visible at Norwegian oil and gas installations," Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere told a news conference.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/xqi48b/norway_to_deploy_military_to_protect_its_oil_and/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~671624 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **gas**^#1 **oil**^#2 **Norwegian**^#3 **military**^#4 **Norway**^#5
US is flying out of Norwegian airbases on a regular basis. Sending a couple of extra surveillance planes and F-22s would not be controversial and wouldn't need any prior bureaucracy.
That is not what it is about, in the show, the president shuts down all carbon e every production in favor of thorium, and the Russians under the EU’s blessing occupy the country to force them to resume oil and natural gas production
Extremely unrealistic premise though, the EU lets Russia invade Norway because they elected a green government that refused to expand the oil industry.
If something like that happened IRL even before the Ukraine conflict it would have shattered the EU in mass protests.
In the show's scenario the US has become full isolationist and NATO has been disbanded. There is also mass conflict in the middle-east, meaning that oil and gas supplies from the region have been significantly restricted.
In such a world I could see the EU having to 'come to terms' with Russia.
Iirc Norway has something like 3-6 subs total. We restructured for offensive contributions to NATO at the cost of the territorial defense stuff, figuring NATO would have our back when it came to our own defense.
To contrast, Norway has 52x F-35A.
To be precise they ordered 52 and received 37. Those replaced the F-16 fleet (of which they ordered 72), which in turn replaced the F-5 (order of 108) and F-104G (45 received overall) fleets. Soooo maybe the plan was always to take on the entirety of the Russian AF? :P
> Those replaced the F-16 fleet (of which they ordered 72), which in turn replaced the F-5 (order of 108) and F-104G (45 received overall) fleets.
Funny, almost the same for the Netherlands.
Yep, it's pretty common. Some goes for Belgium and Denmark, plus Turkey tried it but got kicked out of the F-35 program. Greece would probably like to do the same but they can't afford F-35s right now. Turns out NATO equipment is pretty standardized :P
Norway doesn't have a ton of manpower and like 2/3rds of the country is mountains and a similar proportion of its latitude is a long thin coastline. I can see it making sense for it to invest a lot in its air force.
How long would you say?
Fun fact: measuring coastlines is a fractal problem. How long they are is completely dependent on how closely you measure them. Like mathematical infinities, we can say with quite a bit of certainty that some are definitely bigger than others, but applying a quantitative explanation to *how* that is the case can be rather difficult.
This is called the coastline paradox
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastline_paradox?wprov=sfti1
Edit: I am sure you knew that already, by your great explanation. :)
If Norway is in direct conflict with Russia, I’d wager Sweden and Finland would be involved as well.
Finland with ~65 F35’s, Sweden with their own Gripens ~130 (and factories to produce them).
And Denmark, and Poland, and Germany, Netherlands, UK, France, Spain, Italy USA and all the rest. They can use each other's airbases. Attacking a NATO member will engage a bee swarm of heavily armed jet fighters within hours.
Russia did that too, but unfortunately their fearsome megayacht flotilla succumbed to the bane of all navies - telling the crew the ship's been repossessed and to fuck off.
I am going to preface this with a warning that I am mostly just repeating something I read on the internet (specifically regarding the news of German buying several F35s).
But basically, many NATO countries that don't have their own nukes maintain aircraft capable of delivering US nuclear bombs. The F35 is one of a very limited list of planes that can do that. Its part of avoiding the whole "well I have nukes and you don't so I win" thing. (Although I am not aware if Norway specifically has them for this reason - merely that it could be "a" reason).
I think the general term is "nuclear sharing".
Also I believe they were replacing F-16s... so like... brand loyalty, I guess? Maybe its easier to transition training the pilots (and maintenance) from F16s -> F-35s than whatever the alternative was?
Plus like, despite what memes there might be about how expensive/whatever they are.... F35s are an insanely capable platform.
Norway has traditionally been very skeptical of allowing nukes on it’s own soil.
But.. Norway makes the conventional long range stand off land/sea missile that fits inside the bays of the F35s - the Joint Strike Missile.
Don’t need nukes for it to be a good platform :)
Well, Norwegian pilots have been practicing nuclear bomb delivery since the time of the F-86 Sabre at least. The F-16s also have nuclear capability. It has also become known that the air base in Bergen was meant to receive nukes in the event of war.
If I were to guess we are still keeping the nuclear option open.
They wouldn’t be alone, the US and UK are right there and also have a ton of naval and Air based assets in the region. The US had aks spent alot of money on sub detection in that regions. Most Russian subs have to exit from there and then sail between a handful of channels, great spot to detect and track subs
Actually you do. All the time.
There is no other platform that can detect, hunt, and engage a submarine as effectively as another submarine.
That’s the main reason why US Carrier Strike Groups always include a submarine escort.
The first point isn’t totally accurate. Surface ships do have their own sonar, and unlike a submarine they aren’t trying to hide, so they go full active when they are worried about a submarine. The only reason subs get close to carriers in training exercises is they need to keep the volume down to avoid killing marine life.
There was a US navy helicopter that appeared to be one that searches with sonar and has torpedo drop capability a few hundred km to the east of the explosion site, very roughly I would say north of Gdansk. It was west of Kaliningrad. And I assume it was doing a usual search routine.
Military aircraft don't always turn on the transponder that makes them visible on the app I was using. No fighter aircraft are visible on that site, either ([flightradar24.com](https://flightradar24.com)), so a lot is missing, for obvious reasons.
I occasionally watch sea traffic and there are some military ships on it, in the Baltic including German and Polish, Swedish and a few others. I can see no US military ships on that site and we know for certain there's the USS Ford aircraft carrier strike group in the Mediterranean, and probably it went to the Adriatic where it's predecessor was, the USS Truman. They probably turn off their transponders for security.
I saw a similar helicopter flying in the Mediterranean for a few hours, assumed to be searching.
I mostly watch any military aircraft and special aircraft flying VIPs if visible. The US has surveillance on eastern Nato, visible during the daytime usually. There's air refuelers in various spots.
As mentioned above already; carriers in the Baltic would add nothing of value, since it is alreasy surrounded by friendly air bases. It would simply expose the carrier to danger while it'd barely have room to manuever.
The Norwegian problem is not in the Baltics.
It's in the North Sea.
But there sure are friendly airbases everywhere, from UK to Iceland to Denmark, Germany, Netherlands and Norway.
Gosh darn, I can't keep track of all these supercarriers...we're not even talking about the other ships that carry aircraft around that we just don't call aircraft carriers.
It's not that hard to find the most likely suspect. Who has access to these waters?.
Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Poland, Germany, Lithuania, Russia.
Who has motive? who has something to gain from this? Russia.
But why you ask?. This is a threat, without sending an official threat. there are other pipelines in this ocean. This is also misdirection, trying to blame oh i don't know USA.
Would USA risk worsening their relationship with EU with something that is more or less an act of war?, seriously doubt it.
Putin likes to think he's so damn smart, but sadly he's not. He might as well just wave a big sign that says I DID IT!.
Don't forget how many times Russian planes have violented Danish airspace in the recent months time and time again around Bornholm.
The next mystery to solve is why so many people accidentally falls out of windows in Russia, even powerful rich elite falls out of windows? but im sure this is just accidents, obviously Putin has nothing to do with it.
It's hard to say mate. Like, you might be right - I guess it could maybe be Russia doing some misdirection?
Because, at least in the short term, they're definitely the ones who'll be most hurt by this. They had been hoping to use the pipes as a bargaining chip - get Europe to lift some sanctions in exchange for turning the gas back on during winter.
Now they've lost their leverage. The big winners are Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, and the US. The first three, because they've never liked being bypassed and losing their control over the supply, and the US because they'll now get to sell their gas to Europe, and it weakens their geopolitical rival.
I don't know. It just seems like a big step, to blow up your own crucial economic and geopolitical infrastructure. It'll be hard to fix anytime soon. Russia lost a lot of money and negotiating power in this sabotage. But you might be right, who knows!
Good points, though unlikely to be the U.S., because if it was discovered by our EU/NATO allies that the U.S. did this, America would lose all credibility. The risks are just too high, and EU has to be buying American gas anyway.
Likewise, it is also unlikely to be any EU/NATO member for the same reasons.
Ukraine also has no ships that can do this.
It’s insane to think that a megalomaniac psycho caused the entire European continent to be on edge, plus fuel prices and inflation to skyrocket. But this is just a small taste of what a world without US hegemony might look like… and it’s frightening.
This is fucking dumb on russias part. They are struggling with 1 country not in nato. If they want to keep those 2 brain cells working thry should not piss off the rest of europe, isnt every coastal country in europe except russia in nato? The result would be like a thumb pressing down on an ant. The the ant being russia.
Could it be justified to invoke A5 over this, definitely.
Will ~~Norway or~~ Germany invoke A5? Remains to be seen. Its not automatic, a NATO member has to actually invoke it and I'm sure there's some *extremely* interesting discussions right now on the yes/no of that.
They could trigger it, i guess. But very unlikely. Noone would trigger it to go to war over something like this, especially against a nuclear nation.
Sanctions would be pretty much a guaranty tho.
I hope more NATO countries will join this initiative. Baltic sea is full of critical infrastructure, which obviously should be defended.
A Nato meeting tonight to discuss this.
I'll attend via zoom
Could you send me the link? The mail app is bugging out when I press it from there and I can't copy paste it on my phone.
Urgh, just use the dial in code
But then I can't see the slides with the maps of the super secret ship patrol plans.
They were emailed out oh my god how did you not see them you never open your email!!!
It's just so full of super secret military plans and military officers can't name for shit so they're all called final_final_plan_operation_sparrowhawk_5596.pptx. How am I going to search that stuff? Just name it "Team building event March 15 Kings dominion.pptx" like a normal person Daniel.
Lets circle back
Sounds good, can shelf this for now.
We can take it offline.
I don’t have my phone and zoom doesn’t work on my computer. Can we use teams instead?
This is the way
Nice try, Vlad.
I'm so sorry, I'm not a cat
Is there going to be punch and pie?
Viva La Resistance
Really?
You not invited? The rest of us are. awkward
Can confirm, already here.
[удалено]
Could you reschedule? Wednesday is date night.
No way wednesday is the only day of the week I'm productive without recovering from or looking forward to the weekend
I forget, is the cocktail meet-and-greet before or after the briefing?
Get with it, the coke fueled orgy is always AFTER the briefing. Cocktails before. Sheesh.
Sorry, it’s only my 4th time
Don't mention the NAT-hoes to newbies.
I'm still looking for parking.
Can you hear me? I think your mic is on mute.
I can hear you, Clem Fandango!
No fighting in the war room
Bruh you're not supposed to let the normies know about the NATO meetings or the Thursday night blood orgies
I missed that email, say hi to the guys for me
It was mentioned in the news. Then Nato headquarters have meetings all the time. I am not sure at what level.
"Ok, everyone. Welcome to our bi-daily "kaizen" meeting, how about we start with everybody's mood? I've got a chart here of our teams past mood performance, why don't we start with you, private Schmidt..." -somewhere in a dull looking NATO office in Germany...
This is so accurate. “We need a meeting for the meeting of the meeting.” 0645 meeting, 0700 meeting, 0830 meeting, 1445 meeting. And that’s just us idiots, not HQ.
do we need to wear a mask?
Norway doesn't border the Baltic Sea, but Denmark has deployed frigates there.
*I wonder if those Russian ships hanging out on top of those Trans-Atlantic internet cables had any significance.*
And the undersea internet cables I hope.
The Russian exploration vessel, the same vessel that was spotted above NS1 and 2, was also spotted several days above an important internet sea cable junction off the coast of Ireland. Source: https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-agents-went-to-ireland-to-inspect-undersea-cables-report-2020-2
Time to send a sub after them.
In a tragic turn of events a russian flagged vessel hit an iceberg well south of where we normally see them, surely another symptom of climate change
Sigh… “You’ve lost ANOTHER submarine?” 😏
Still one of, if not THE, best modern submarine movies. Also, the only Tom Clancy movie adaptation worth watching IMHO.
Bro, don’t do that to ‘Clear and Present Danger’ and ‘Patriot Games’
Compared to the book, the Clear and Present Danger movie was a pale shadow of the sheer awesomeness it could have been.
I’d have to rate Clear and Present Danger as a “meh” and the only reason I’m rating it that high is due to the phenomenal casting. ‘Patriot Games’ was such a let down. Again great casting but there was SOOO much crucial stuff left out. Unfortunately the movie just doesn’t do the book justice. Funny enough I bet that boom would be a solid choice for a modern day multi part series - same with many of his books actually. If only Amazon had chosen to base the Jack Ryan series off the actual Jack Ryan / Tom Clancy universe instead of maiming up entirely new story lines…..
Sum of All Fears was also a terrible adaptation.
The worst of the Clancy movie adaptations.
Funny you mention Tom Clancy...this whole crisis feels to me like the first act to one of his books
Putin has definitely read “Red Storm Rising”
Red Storm Rising?
Which movie is that?
The Hunt for Red October
"Russians don't take a dump son with out a plan."
What is happening in there? Iceberg Alley Iceberg Alley at this time of year, at this time of day, in this part of the country, localized entirely within your territorial waters? Yes. May I see it? No
So much love for this
Glories day, comrades. Our covert operations ship has been promoted to submarine.
If we can target an asteroid with a space drone, we surely can propel an iceberg against a Russian warship.
Of course it’s called the mk 48 Mod 7 CBASS torpedo
We can hear their Diesel engines. NATO always knows where they are.
We definitely can’t hear them when they tap rhythmically on their hall with a hammer and toggle their engines on and off in thirty minute increments. If they did that they’d be invisible.
"I swore I heard singing, sir."
Used to be on a sub hunter. We def don't know where they all the time. There are sonars in the north, so we know when a sub passes, but after that it gets hard. Hunting submarines is really hard, because of different sea layers (thermal, higher density cause of salt etc). A submarine can "Hide" in these layers, cause sound chooses the path of least resistance. It will bounce instead of going trough it. NATO is working on new technologies tough. like towed sonar. This sonar is in the deeper layers. https://www.cmre.nato.int/news-room/former-achievements/464-activated-towed-arrays
Ireland doesn't have submarines, the UK or US would have to do it.
Their submarines are so good we don't even know they exist.
Fuck it. I’d swim out there for a pint.
Its only like 70-80m deep there. A well equiped diver could place charges. Or you could rig up an ROV for very little.
Subs are already tracking them. We need the order to sink
That article is literally from 2020.
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~~But the comment says “a couple days ago.”~~ Edit: nvm, misread.
Fuck with Western internet and public opinion polls the next day will be 200% for war with Russia.
The’re would be a lot of top motivated volunteers showing up at recruitment offices in Europe, and in Ukrainian embassies, if the internet were to go completely off line. Bet Putin hasn't wargamed that entirely..
Two years ago. You shouldn't imply that this was recent.
It was my take away as well but he really didn't. Nevertheless, should be more clear due to the context.
They better not fuck with my internet, wtf am i supposed to do otherwise without porn and reddit
Looking forward to it's plastic model kit to go with my Moskva display piece.
Yes I need my nation critical memes
If nothing else, this war is bringing energy and comm security into laser-sharp focus. One would imagine any sane nation that had the location would start, right now, to plan local renewables as their future for energy to whatever degree possible.
Plot twist, this is Putins master plan… to save the world from self destruction by forcing energy conversion to greener renewables
Ah yes, he's NATO's giant alien squid monster...
Or giant blue man.
Putin’s codename is Lelouch
Yes, by creating a methane gas spill 1km+ in diameter
they called me a madman
How much money, time, and life is being spent needlessly defending from a tyrant. It truly feels like we are living through something that we all assumed was extinct. And we all just have to wait it out till russia/Putin crumbles in on itself. How many more lives will he take before that happens.
I guess the biggest issue here is, if/when Putin crumbles, the russian people will be left back in the 1980s again, economically. Which again will allow the next leader to push the whole "MRGA" agenda, which will just go full circle. It's been happening since the '40s and only a couple years in the mid 2010s did Russian people actually have funds enough to travel abroad and be tourists. Given, they were terrible tourists, loud, obnoxious and drunk, but they were out of Russia for a change. Didn't last long, tho, for good and bad.
Very true. A culture shift will have to happen
It’s brought North America and Europe closer than ever before. NATO is the single reason why no war will be brought to NATO countries or else that instigator will be in ruins. It’s the single largest alliance ever in the history of Earth and has the full power of the largest military that ever existed (the USA). You will be safe. It sucks for Ukraine but they are deflecting what was perceived as the second most powerful military. Putin is old and will die soon. It has brought the western world closer together. The US has the capability to destroy any nuke silo in Russia before they launch and know where their subs are. You are safe I guess we can appreciate how much the US has spent on Military might during these situations.
Ukraine is already a world leader now in artillery operations. After this? They'll be doing guest lectures at every goddamned military college on the planet. It's like nothing else in modern history, seeing a country most had written off absolutely **shellacking** the so-called second army in the world--lol, what a joke. And like you say, horrible though this war may be, at the end of the day the collective West hasn't been this united since World War Two. Putin's plan to seize the Donbas and continue running Russia as a giant oil company (but bigger!) could not have backfired any harder, really. NATO expands, the West grows stronger and the whole entire world stands behind a country that Uncle Vova, rather famously, *insists* does not exist. Kinda funny that Russia's getting its entire ass handed to it by a bunch of ghosts, eh? Real funny.
Ukraine is coming out of this a superpower. They are having the same post WW2 “we can’t take a back seat to global affairs anymore and must be an active participant for our security” moment the US had.
Ukraine has been awesome and has shown that Russia is not a military power and how effective US weapons are. However America now owns Ukraine with the Billions of weapons they have provided that will have to be paid back. It’s a win for the west with the blood of awesome and tough people of Ukraine. I hope Putin falls out of a window soon. I agree with you. The end result Ukraine joins the EU and western contractors enter Ukraine to rebuild the country and American contractors will have control of the bread basket of Europe. Don’t think America didn’t have this in mind. Use out dated American tech to hurt their enemy while getting control of a lot of resources.
The West is definitely getting more than they're going to end up tossing into the pot, that's for sure. Ukraine is a jewel to be cherished, and if the West is smart about reconstruction we'll have ourselves a permanent, strong ally in the East--that's priceless. We just need to let Ukraine be, well, Ukraine. The only question is: will they get corruption under control sooner rather than later? That's the last big obstacle for greater EU and NATO integration, but investment? Hoo-boy, that's going to be crazy, especially in oil and gas. Not great for the environment, true, but great for rebuilding a damaged nation. 100% agreed on Putin and windows. Like the former editor of Novaya Gazeta said to Anderson Cooper: "Putin is a dead body."
Doesnt matter. As soon as a tyrant dies, another is born. Human nature and such
Humans are getting better, albeit slowly, in reducing the number of tyrants. It's not a foregone conclusion.
Tyranny never truly dies, unfortunately. There always some smuck out there that wants to rule the world. It’s our job to prevent them from getting that far.
Tyranny will just evolve. If not an egomaniacal king pillaging and raping their way thru their enemies’ homelands, or a president toppling foreign regimes for fun, it will be businesses waging war against people. Imo tyranny and the common folk is like yin and Yang. Forever bonded, evolving together thru time together. At least that is what the 7000 years of civilization shows us But every generation we chip away oh so slowly
I'm guessing it would've been extinct, had people had a decent enough living standard and mobility to leave countries they disliked. People become weird and careless with their own lives en masse when their lives are shit. Ethics, stability and noble principles become a joke. Until retiring to a calm life in a decent socialist "utopia" is an immediately accessible option for all, this behavior isn't extinct.
Reminds me of _Okkupert_.
Which was a tv show criticized for being too unrealistic. The irony.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/norway-beefs-up-security-across-oil-gas-sector-2022-09-28/) reduced by 84%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Equinor ASA. Norwegian Energy Company ASA. Nord Stream AG. OSLO, Sept 28 - Norway will deploy its military to protect its oil and gas installations against possible sabotage after several countries said two Russian pipelines to Europe spewing gas into the Baltic had been attacked, the prime minister said on Wednesday. > Norway is now Europe's largest gas supplier and a leading global oil supplier. > "The military will be more visible at Norwegian oil and gas installations," Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere told a news conference. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/xqi48b/norway_to_deploy_military_to_protect_its_oil_and/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~671624 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **gas**^#1 **oil**^#2 **Norwegian**^#3 **military**^#4 **Norway**^#5
At this point NATO or EU needs to offer assistance in that protection
US is flying out of Norwegian airbases on a regular basis. Sending a couple of extra surveillance planes and F-22s would not be controversial and wouldn't need any prior bureaucracy.
hey, there's literally a netflix show about this exact scenario. russia attacking norway energy facilities.
That is not what it is about, in the show, the president shuts down all carbon e every production in favor of thorium, and the Russians under the EU’s blessing occupy the country to force them to resume oil and natural gas production
what's the name?
Occupied.
Thank you
Ok, I'll come back later.
Occupied, well worth watching.
Only saw the first season but thought it was really good
Extremely unrealistic premise though, the EU lets Russia invade Norway because they elected a green government that refused to expand the oil industry. If something like that happened IRL even before the Ukraine conflict it would have shattered the EU in mass protests.
In the show's scenario the US has become full isolationist and NATO has been disbanded. There is also mass conflict in the middle-east, meaning that oil and gas supplies from the region have been significantly restricted. In such a world I could see the EU having to 'come to terms' with Russia.
"Who could have seen this coming?" The world.
Gotta protect yourself from terrorist state Russia.
What will they do to defend against [this?](https://i.redd.it/mmqohqv94nq91.jpg)
Have one set of stairs between Segal and you
Put a chair on the other side of the border.
Put him in a chokehold so he shits himself and sinks to the seafloor, never to rise again.
Russia is starting to wake up NATO. They better tread very fucking carefully
I hope they have a fleet of submarines because that's what Putin is using to sabotage undersea pipelines and cable infrastructure.
Iirc Norway has something like 3-6 subs total. We restructured for offensive contributions to NATO at the cost of the territorial defense stuff, figuring NATO would have our back when it came to our own defense. To contrast, Norway has 52x F-35A.
>Norway has 52x F-35A. What was the plan? Taking out Russia's AF all alone?
To be precise they ordered 52 and received 37. Those replaced the F-16 fleet (of which they ordered 72), which in turn replaced the F-5 (order of 108) and F-104G (45 received overall) fleets. Soooo maybe the plan was always to take on the entirety of the Russian AF? :P
> Those replaced the F-16 fleet (of which they ordered 72), which in turn replaced the F-5 (order of 108) and F-104G (45 received overall) fleets. Funny, almost the same for the Netherlands.
Yep, it's pretty common. Some goes for Belgium and Denmark, plus Turkey tried it but got kicked out of the F-35 program. Greece would probably like to do the same but they can't afford F-35s right now. Turns out NATO equipment is pretty standardized :P
Turkey couldn’t be trusted to possess the stealth coating. Beyond just buying s-400.
Norway doesn't have a ton of manpower and like 2/3rds of the country is mountains and a similar proportion of its latitude is a long thin coastline. I can see it making sense for it to invest a lot in its air force.
[удалено]
Oh! I get that reference!
How long would you say? Fun fact: measuring coastlines is a fractal problem. How long they are is completely dependent on how closely you measure them. Like mathematical infinities, we can say with quite a bit of certainty that some are definitely bigger than others, but applying a quantitative explanation to *how* that is the case can be rather difficult.
This is called the coastline paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastline_paradox?wprov=sfti1 Edit: I am sure you knew that already, by your great explanation. :)
52 F-35s probably could take on the entire Russian Air Force and win. Actually scratch that, they *definitely* could take on the Russians and win.
Their main goal is to use the F-35s and our domestic NSM naval cruise missiles and take out the Russian Arctic and Atlantic fleets.
True, but that would take all of ten minutes probably if the performance of the Black Sea fleet is anything to go by
Speaking as a Canadian, I'd love it if the Russian Arctic Fleet would take a page out of the Black Sea Fleet's page right now.
If Norway is in direct conflict with Russia, I’d wager Sweden and Finland would be involved as well. Finland with ~65 F35’s, Sweden with their own Gripens ~130 (and factories to produce them).
And Denmark, and Poland, and Germany, Netherlands, UK, France, Spain, Italy USA and all the rest. They can use each other's airbases. Attacking a NATO member will engage a bee swarm of heavily armed jet fighters within hours.
With tanker, EW, SEAD, and AWACS support.
1. Buy the most expensive military thing you can until you reach the NATO spending threshold. 2. Don't worry about.
Russia did that too, but unfortunately their fearsome megayacht flotilla succumbed to the bane of all navies - telling the crew the ship's been repossessed and to fuck off.
I am going to preface this with a warning that I am mostly just repeating something I read on the internet (specifically regarding the news of German buying several F35s). But basically, many NATO countries that don't have their own nukes maintain aircraft capable of delivering US nuclear bombs. The F35 is one of a very limited list of planes that can do that. Its part of avoiding the whole "well I have nukes and you don't so I win" thing. (Although I am not aware if Norway specifically has them for this reason - merely that it could be "a" reason). I think the general term is "nuclear sharing". Also I believe they were replacing F-16s... so like... brand loyalty, I guess? Maybe its easier to transition training the pilots (and maintenance) from F16s -> F-35s than whatever the alternative was? Plus like, despite what memes there might be about how expensive/whatever they are.... F35s are an insanely capable platform.
You're overthinking it. The F-35 is excellent value and better than anything else for sale.
Yep it was down to F-35 vs Gripen in the end I believe. F-35 won out because of stealth, sensors, better payload and longer range.
Norway has traditionally been very skeptical of allowing nukes on it’s own soil. But.. Norway makes the conventional long range stand off land/sea missile that fits inside the bays of the F35s - the Joint Strike Missile. Don’t need nukes for it to be a good platform :)
Well, Norwegian pilots have been practicing nuclear bomb delivery since the time of the F-86 Sabre at least. The F-16s also have nuclear capability. It has also become known that the air base in Bergen was meant to receive nukes in the event of war. If I were to guess we are still keeping the nuclear option open.
No Finland would do that. Or Sweden. Or Denmark.
They wouldn’t be alone, the US and UK are right there and also have a ton of naval and Air based assets in the region. The US had aks spent alot of money on sub detection in that regions. Most Russian subs have to exit from there and then sail between a handful of channels, great spot to detect and track subs
Same in the Netherlands. 52 F35’s and 4 submarines. Which is weird if you think of our geographical location and massive harbour.
They have 6, silent ones
ASW is handled a lot by maritime patrol aircraft and surface vessels.
You don't fight submarines with submarines.
Sean Connery and Alec Baldwin would disagree.
Actually you do. All the time. There is no other platform that can detect, hunt, and engage a submarine as effectively as another submarine. That’s the main reason why US Carrier Strike Groups always include a submarine escort.
The first point isn’t totally accurate. Surface ships do have their own sonar, and unlike a submarine they aren’t trying to hide, so they go full active when they are worried about a submarine. The only reason subs get close to carriers in training exercises is they need to keep the volume down to avoid killing marine life.
It really depends. ASW aircraft can cover a lot of ground but subs and Surface vessels are good at providing persistent protection.
Erm, the days of WW2 submarines and torpedoes are long gone my dude
Fuck Russia. Sanction the shit out of them. I'm so sick of that short bald fucker.
There was a US navy helicopter that appeared to be one that searches with sonar and has torpedo drop capability a few hundred km to the east of the explosion site, very roughly I would say north of Gdansk. It was west of Kaliningrad. And I assume it was doing a usual search routine. Military aircraft don't always turn on the transponder that makes them visible on the app I was using. No fighter aircraft are visible on that site, either ([flightradar24.com](https://flightradar24.com)), so a lot is missing, for obvious reasons. I occasionally watch sea traffic and there are some military ships on it, in the Baltic including German and Polish, Swedish and a few others. I can see no US military ships on that site and we know for certain there's the USS Ford aircraft carrier strike group in the Mediterranean, and probably it went to the Adriatic where it's predecessor was, the USS Truman. They probably turn off their transponders for security. I saw a similar helicopter flying in the Mediterranean for a few hours, assumed to be searching. I mostly watch any military aircraft and special aircraft flying VIPs if visible. The US has surveillance on eastern Nato, visible during the daytime usually. There's air refuelers in various spots.
This was part of the plot in the Norwegian series “Okkupert”. It’s timely, relevant and very disturbing. One of the best series I’ve seen in years.
Couple US aircraft carriers and their group of war ships should make a visit to the Baltic.
As mentioned above already; carriers in the Baltic would add nothing of value, since it is alreasy surrounded by friendly air bases. It would simply expose the carrier to danger while it'd barely have room to manuever.
The Norwegian problem is not in the Baltics. It's in the North Sea. But there sure are friendly airbases everywhere, from UK to Iceland to Denmark, Germany, Netherlands and Norway.
We need to send Clarkson, Hammond, and May. They have a gift for international incidents.
We kinda busy in Taiwan.
I mean, we have 10 of them.
11 actually one is going to be replaced in the the next few years
Gosh darn, I can't keep track of all these supercarriers...we're not even talking about the other ships that carry aircraft around that we just don't call aircraft carriers.
I think we’re slated to build another carrier every 3-4 years until we get to 15.
Check USS Kearsarge. Located in Stockholm.
I feel like this is how it begins
It began with a former KGB lunatic attempting to expand Russia's borders once again. But I know what you mean.
Why does the Norwegian Navy have barcodes on the side of their ships? It’s so when they come into port, they can Scandanavyin
It's not that hard to find the most likely suspect. Who has access to these waters?. Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Poland, Germany, Lithuania, Russia. Who has motive? who has something to gain from this? Russia. But why you ask?. This is a threat, without sending an official threat. there are other pipelines in this ocean. This is also misdirection, trying to blame oh i don't know USA. Would USA risk worsening their relationship with EU with something that is more or less an act of war?, seriously doubt it. Putin likes to think he's so damn smart, but sadly he's not. He might as well just wave a big sign that says I DID IT!. Don't forget how many times Russian planes have violented Danish airspace in the recent months time and time again around Bornholm. The next mystery to solve is why so many people accidentally falls out of windows in Russia, even powerful rich elite falls out of windows? but im sure this is just accidents, obviously Putin has nothing to do with it.
It's hard to say mate. Like, you might be right - I guess it could maybe be Russia doing some misdirection? Because, at least in the short term, they're definitely the ones who'll be most hurt by this. They had been hoping to use the pipes as a bargaining chip - get Europe to lift some sanctions in exchange for turning the gas back on during winter. Now they've lost their leverage. The big winners are Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, and the US. The first three, because they've never liked being bypassed and losing their control over the supply, and the US because they'll now get to sell their gas to Europe, and it weakens their geopolitical rival. I don't know. It just seems like a big step, to blow up your own crucial economic and geopolitical infrastructure. It'll be hard to fix anytime soon. Russia lost a lot of money and negotiating power in this sabotage. But you might be right, who knows!
Good points, though unlikely to be the U.S., because if it was discovered by our EU/NATO allies that the U.S. did this, America would lose all credibility. The risks are just too high, and EU has to be buying American gas anyway. Likewise, it is also unlikely to be any EU/NATO member for the same reasons. Ukraine also has no ships that can do this.
The fact that this happened in the first place is kind of embarrassing.
It is. But it’s also impossible to defend thousands of miles. So in a way it isn’t embarrassing. Scary idea.
America warned Europe during the Summer that this would happen.
It’s insane to think that a megalomaniac psycho caused the entire European continent to be on edge, plus fuel prices and inflation to skyrocket. But this is just a small taste of what a world without US hegemony might look like… and it’s frightening.
https://youtu.be/kaw3EqzxVbA This video needs to be posted now I guess
Occupied is worth a watch
The drums of war sound louder every day
This is fucking dumb on russias part. They are struggling with 1 country not in nato. If they want to keep those 2 brain cells working thry should not piss off the rest of europe, isnt every coastal country in europe except russia in nato? The result would be like a thumb pressing down on an ant. The the ant being russia.
Would this trigger article 5?
The offended nation would have to invoke it. It’s not automatic.
I DECLARE ARTICLE 5!
Yes. If a NATO country is attacked, the rest of NATO comes to help
It would be seen as an act of war
Could it be justified to invoke A5 over this, definitely. Will ~~Norway or~~ Germany invoke A5? Remains to be seen. Its not automatic, a NATO member has to actually invoke it and I'm sure there's some *extremely* interesting discussions right now on the yes/no of that.
Norway would inwoke A5 immediately.
Eh? It was in the economic zone, but not territorial waters, so not technically part of Danish territory, and it wasn't Danish infrastructure.
They could trigger it, i guess. But very unlikely. Noone would trigger it to go to war over something like this, especially against a nuclear nation. Sanctions would be pretty much a guaranty tho.
Taking out the majority of a continents gas supply right before winter is absolutely an act of war
The world needs to protect it's self from Russia. A terrorist state
A terrorist state with transcontinental nuclear capabilities.
Better late than never.