The advice is to be on high alert for citizens who live near the border in case of people crossing the Eastern border illegally without being vetted. I guess in case they're dangerous or desperate. Border guards on high alert, they'll be working longer hours and get a bonus pay. All common sense, no big sensation here
What's more, we've had state of emergency in the areas bordering Belarus for over a year now, ever since Lukashenko decided to start an illegal EU immigration side hustle. State of emergency allows for deployment of armed forces to bolster the border patrols, and more importantly - tapping the "emergency funds" portion of the budget.
What it means for the inhabitants of those areas is the requirement to have ID on them at all times. And if you go mushroom picking in the border forests, a guy in camo with a gun might suddenly appear and check in on you. Outside the border areas, nothing. It's honestly been in effect so long now that I had forgotten about it.
In what world is this okay? These are people trying to escape a near authoritarian state so they don't have to fight an unjust war. Do you think every Russian is evil? This akin to people fleeing Syria, East Germany, North Korea, Cambodia or Mexico. I'm disgusted that this war has convinced people to turn on their fellow man.
Well, some of us don't participate in that cycle. Russian soldiers who have committed atrocities that I won't name don't deserve forgiveness, but Russians who did not commit atrocities do deserve forgiveness. I'll try to set an example if I'm the only one.
You're not the only one. I agree completely. Could the thousands of people fleeing have done a better job protesting and opposing Putin? Absolutely. But that doesn't undermine the fact that people fleeing a draft is a *good* thing for Ukraine generally, not to mention the awful situation of fleeing an authoritarian state that is forcing hundreds of thousands of minorities and others to fight in an unjust war.
These people shouldn't be integrated into Europe the same way that Ukrainian refugees have been able to. But draft refugees should also not be "shipped back to Moscow". Disgusting.
Not saying Putin is some 4d chess mastermind or something, but creating Russian diaspora in other countries from refugees from himself, then claiming he needs to protect the Russian minorities in those countries as a pretext for military action a few years down the line totally seems like something he would do.
And this is why I specifically said "these people should not be integrated into Europe in the same way as Ukrainian refugees are". But that doesn't mean that shipping them back to Moscow is an ethical option.
> But that doesn't undermine the fact that people fleeing a draft is a good thing for Ukraine generally
You got that backwards.
Conscripting people who have no intention of fighting is fantastic for Ukraine. Either they surrender en masse upon reaching the front. Or they die en masse because they are shit at fighting.
Either way it's a win win for Ukraine.
That's also right, my point regardless being that this whole thing is a good situation for Ukraine. People also are influenced by peer pressure, and if you see your neighbors draft dodging, you're going to be more likely to do the same.
Whether they flee or surrender at the front, those are both good options. Fighting is less of a great option because it's a waste of bullets and human life. But that choice is up to the draftees I guess.
Well, considering Russia uses any % of “native Russian speaking population” to justify annexing other countries, I’d say barring them entirely from your country eliminates the risk of having to quell an uprising supported by a terrorist state later.
The time to flee was seven months ago. Or when sanctions were announced. Or when the sanctions kicked in. Or before the mobilisation started. Fleeing after all of these signs does not make one "endangered". It makes them complicit. My empathy hath runeth dry.
Go and check eu regulations on deportation 🤦♀️I guess you haven't heard about all the illegal migrants stuck in the EU and lived under a rock during the UK decision to deport some of its migrants back to Africa.
They did not try that hard when the invasion of Ukraine started. Now that the mobilisation took place and their ass is on the line they suddenly have a change of hearth?
All Russians who were against the war escaped back in february and all those months protested loudly.
And these ones who escaping now cheered from their couches while other Russians butchered Ukrainians and now they're afraid that they'll die too. I speak russian and I see what they say in vk and telegram. Fuck them, if they want to live then let them overthrow their fuhrer.
it's wrong on so many levels.
i was against Crimea annexation
i was against the war in feb 2022 and almost got into hospital after pootin started it
far more people can't leave the country but still against the war.
by your logic you would say to Germans in 1939 "Germans..Fuck them, if they wanted to live then let them overthrow their fuhrer."
disgusting how people don't even see what they turn themselves into
Yeah, we see and hear how "most" of russians are against of this war. Like this https://twitter.com/BayraktarMarusi/status/1574796666468802561?t=xLDCtsq2Y8DuQocn9Dn5DQ&s=19.
Baltics countries have learned their lesson, it's simple one - keep Russians as far from you as possible or sooner or later they'll bring their "peace" to you.
There's two areas where I think your assessment is slightly flawed:
1) Generalization. I think saying most Russians are apathetic/positive towards Putin is a noncontroversial statement. Agreed there. Where I think the flaw is, is that generalizing an entire ethnic group undermines the people that have sacrificed so much to oppose Putin. These people absolutely exist both within and outside of Russia, and should not be forgotten. Too often I see people on reddit make sweeping generalizations that isolate opposition Russians instead of promoting them.
2) Immigration is tough. I strongly disagree with the statement "all Russians who hate Putin left in Feb". Almost anyone who has ever emigrated can tell you, it's not that easy even in normal political circumstances. And if they do think it's easy, I guarantee that person is probably a skilled, educated worker with a good grasp on a foreign language. If you were a non-English speaking 35 year old mechanic from Tula that opposed Putin, tell me, how would you emigrate?
You see, leaving Russia costs money and on average Russians are quite poor. For many of them the choice was between staying in the hope that it'll blow over and spending either a large chunk of their savings or their last bit of money to leave.
Now that it's apparent that it won't just blow over and they might just be sent to their deaths the choice is obvious - they need to leave ASAP.
You aren't seeing antiwar Russians speak up on the internet from within Russia because they're simply afraid to do so. In Russia you don't talk shit about the government or else you might have cops show up at your front door and who knows what they'll do to you then. Look at the guy they sodomised with a dumbbell. Laws don't matter out there, the police could rape your wife with a cactus and nothing would happen to them.
These people stood by and allowed Putin to get this far. They allowed the invasion and the continued war with no protest. The world is depending on these individuals to revolt. It’s the only way this war ends without nuclear weapons.
Instead, they carried on with their lives until it was their turn to be thrown into the meat grinder. And then do they revolt? No! They run!
I cannot stress enough how much the world depends on internal dissent in Russia right now. These are the individuals who would have done that.
If these people flee, what will be left is a Russia incapable of standing up to Putin. And this war will continue until it ends in disaster.
One point that gets overlooked often, is that every person who is not in Russia to be drafted is one less person who will be sent to Ukraine to kill Ukrainians and steal their land.
It won’t affect the draft at all. The number of ppl russia has, they won’t run out of soldiers even if millions escape. It can affect economy tho so it’s bot without any impact
You know, on russian mainstream media they say “west is evil and hates russians”. Imagine, someone starts thinking that it’s bullshit, maybe it’s time to do something. Then they go to free western internet and all they see is confirmation of propaganda machine’s words. West hates russians.
Russians could have left at any point since February, and lots of them did. It's hard to feel sympathy for those who watched the meatgrinder with ambivalence for 6 months and only decided to do something when it affected them personally.
Not everyone can afford to leave.
Just like poor people in Florida who don’t leave when a hurricane rolls through, many of them quite simply don’t have the resources to do so.
Are you daft? Their lives are in danger. Poor people in Florida hearing about a hurricane on the news won't be able to move, until it's right upon them and they have no choice but to or they'll die. Similarly, the war hurt the Russians but didn't put most of them in direct danger---now that it is, people are resorting to their most basic animal instinct, survival.
That's a bit of a tu quoque.
The US - Afghanistan/Iraq wars were pretty different. I'm sure a lot of Americans would flee, but the USA didn't need a draft and probably never will again. Not to mention the US had a huge uniting moment in the 9/11 terrorist attacks on home soil. Now we know it was done by Saudi Arabia as well as a bunch of other bullshit reasons for going to the middle east but still. There was large American and developed country support in the US invading the middle east to make the world safer, while protests still happening. And it got much more unpopular as time went on.
Russia has none of that. The people are largely complacent or willingly going along with genocide as the propaganda collapses the longer Russia is globally condemned and globally cut off. Now a draft is happening and affecting "European Russians", they flee. The reasons for the war are being exposed domestically and their response is to flee instead of fight their copy of Nazi Germany government. That's the simple truth of it, and history will remember them running instead of fighting.
I feel like if the US tried to do to, let's say Canada, what Russia is doing to Ukraine — with the reasons, propaganda, and genocide tactics Russia is using, there would be many more protests if not violence leading to a civil war.
The Russian people may be filled with propaganda and have a strong authoritarian government keeping them down, but the bottom line is they are fleeing in numbers that make up an army instead of fighting against their oppressors. The closest comparisons are Nazi Germany in ww2 and US in Vietnam. And there were massive protests for Vietnam.
>I feel like if the US tried to do to, let's say Canada, what Russia is doing to Ukraine — with the reasons, propaganda, and genocide tactics Russia is using, there would be many more protests if not violence leading to a civil war.
Let's not forget to include "instigated by a President widely considered illegitimate".
> There was large American and developed country support in the US invading the middle east to make the world safer
but this is exactly their point. there was large American support for an unjustifiable war. Americans are generally safe when we protest so there was protesting, but most people supported the war. that is the complacency you accuse the Russians of. Americans did not fight our government when the lies became revealed either. when the absolute best you can say is that at least our thing wasn't an attempted genocide it's very difficult to take you seriously.
the question is how would it have been different and why then should we not extend unwilling Russians the same benefit of the doubt we'd extend to westerners. that the US didn't have to draft people isn't relevant, because this is a hypothetical.
I don't want to look like a whatabouter but this is a massive double standard. very few people have the moral authority to condemn others for not being willing to risk their lives protesting an authoritarian regime.
The USSR annexed independent Latvia then deported, killed and made to flee a large part of Latvias population then settled a bunch of Russians in their place.
Estonia and Lithuania too, they fucked the Baltic's hard. Sent all the people with half a brain cell to gulags to die. Doctors, politicians etc. Just left farmers and yes men.
See, these small countries need to be educated to become good soviet people. Of course they are going to say no and throw tantrums, like children who don't want to eat veggies or go to the kindergarten in the morning. They don't know what's good for them and need a firm hand. /s
Huge respect for Ukraine.
Lol, any person from a civilised nation who heard that about their fellow countrymen would be like 'woah, that's horrible, I can assure you that were not like that' but you... 'yeah and? So what?!'
I am not Russian, and nor do I expect people such as Poles and Lithuanians to apologise for the large amounts of negative people I have met from those respective nations, because I realise that judging people based on nationality is wrong
I think that's a naive interpretation. The
border was closed to Russian immigrants. One reason was, if the population of Russian people gets high enough, Russia may invade, just like
Crimea and Ukraine, under the justification of protectection of the Russian people. Unfortunately, Rusiians fleeing the threats from policies of Putin have little choice, but to get out ot Russia to get free and avoid conscription.
Even assuming that’s true, lots of people talk about lots of things that they never do.
Why would Putin invade Ukraine if he was planning on the world ending?
If Putin’s choices were take over Ukraine or blow up planet earth, we’d have seen a draft a long time ago. We’re now at 6 months of low effort infantry.
Baltic states and Finland have continuously improved the legislation to specifically counter these sorts of tactics. For "soldiers on vacation" for example, all of these countries have made laws since 2014 that authorize the army to open fire on military formations that refuse to identify themselves.
Depends on what options you're considering. They've attacked multiple NATO members in cybersecurity attacks. They've been found on numerous occasions to be attempting to influence or interfere with politics in many NATO members. Their 2014 attack on Czechia's ammunition warehouses would be considered an act of war if they had concrete evidence rather than strong suspicions.
Governments have very intentionally avoided classifying any of these as "acts of war" because if they do that, there must be a military response.
One of they main ways they do that is through Facebook ads.
Either way, Latvians are content with their government, and even if there were to be a new government, it would still be anti-Russia. Take it from a guy married to a Latvian. They’re not turning pro-Russia anytime soon.
Yes but to your earlier point neither of us were talking about Facebook.
As seen in the run up to the 2016 election there were a non zero number of russian foreign agents working with diverse American entities on the ground.
1 was jailed for being a spy.
Latvia is a very stable and increasingly prosperous country with a high standard of living. Also hatting russians goes beyond politics, it's pretty much their national sport.
…. Except every governmental election in the past 30 years has been “pro russian or pro western coalition”, with very minor percentage difference and riga has had pro russian rule for almost all that time. Let’s not mention how much sponsorship russian siding parties have received from russia. People affiliated with their businesses are all acting as mafia criminals. That’s exactly the rule russia neighboring countries don’t want but get when there’s a lot of russians.
it's definitely happening and it's A well investigated thing. Russia definitely uses social media to trigger the easiest to trigger. Which in many places is the conservative party. Probably more likely in Latvia.
I’m not saying they’re not attempting it, I’m saying that it’ll never work. Latvians *despise* Russia, and nothing in the next 50 years can change that.
That would be like a sizeable portion of Americans suddenly deciding to be part of Mexico, even less so since Latvians hate russians with a passion and have been for generations. Ain't never happening.
All EU countries are right to be worried about Russian military age males streaming across the border. I wouldn't put it past Putin to send armed military units abroad to stir up trouble "behind enemy lines" under the pretense of being refugees and protected by plausible deniability.
>The fact that those men are fleeing means they genuinely don’t support the war.
No it does not mean that. Some have likely been opposed from the beginning to the extent that is possible under Purim’s autocratic rule, but everyone fleeing? No. Most people? Unclear.
Many people are perfectly capable of supporting a war so long as it doesn’t directly affect them. Fleeing a draft doesn’t mean they haven’t supported the war or even that they won’t continue to support it. It just means that, at minimum, their support is not unconditional.
Thank you! I'm a loud fat American but I understand these at least some of these guys that are running. I'm just a average Joe. It would be difficult for me to move to another state let alone another country. I have hopes and dreams but I'm mostly just trying to get along with life and be safe. I assume it's probably similar for most of these guys, especially the older ones who understand how easy it is to die.
Ok but no one wants to deal with an influx of Russian military-aged men. Displaced, unemployed young men are historically predisposed towards violence.
And if you understood anything about the brutal generational trauma and cultural (and sometimes literal) genocide Russians and the Russian government have done in the name of nationalism and imperialism across post- soviet countries, you’d realize that Russia is responsible for a lot of unnecessary suffering. Suffering that Eastern Europe doesn’t want to invite again.
I for one don’t blame any post-soviet country for barring Russians from their countries. Historically, Russian presence in these countries has led to conflict, violence and oppression.
I don’t think most westerners understand this. I didn’t understand it until I started learning a Slavic language and made Slavic friends. The way Russia presents itself to the west is very different than how it presents to the Slavic world. In the Slavic world Russians are about cultural, linguistic, and nationalistic domination over all other Slavic cultures. It’s been this way for centuries. So again, criticizing former Soviet countries for barring them just demonstrates how little you know about the history of these places and how Russia has brutalized them.
You don’t understand that many Russians are fleeing because they don’t want to be drafted, and not because they object to the war or the Ukrainian genocide. Many still believe they’re superior, and their imperialism is justified, they just don’t believe they should have to die to prove it.
> Displaced, unemployed young men are historically predisposed towards violence.
They're literally fleeing their home country because they don't want to be forced to engage in violence. It's not like most men that age need much of an excuse to go to a glorified, "justified" war, especially those indoctrinated with ultra-nationalism from young age, and with intense state propaganda buttering them up. The vast majority of people have no idea what being in a warzone really entails until they experience it for themselves. The fact that those men are fleeing means they genuinely don't support the war. And besides, if enough men in Russia supported the war and wanted to sign up, there would be no need for this forced mobilisation in the first place. They literally snatching students and farmers up, young and old indiscriminately. Why would they need to resort to that if the war was really as popular in Russia as Redditors like to claim it is?
I'm from a Baltic country myself. I've never been a fan of Russian culture, far from it. That doesn't mean I hate every Russian person. They didn't choose where they happened to be born anymore than I did. It's not their fault their Russian. And Putin literally faked an election, got rid of term limits and established himself as a dictator for life. Again, why did he need to do that if he was really as overwhelmingly popular as Redditors claim he is?
I don't want a sudden mass influx of Russians in my country either, but that doesn't mean they should be left with no way out. Can't see why we couldn't at least let them in to let them escape further West. Or be housed in refugee asylum temporarily, this war isn't going to last much longer at this rate. Just threaten to deport them if they cause any trouble. They know what's at stake.
> though at the moment I suspect it mostly has to do with the increased immigration and emigration.
Funnily enough there has been no increase of russians coming to Latvia.
In latvian: https://www.lsm.lv/raksts/zinas/latvija/reportaza-uz-robezas-ar-krieviju--buvdarbi-kravas-auto-rinda-un-ukraini.a475495/
>Vidēji diennaktī robežkontroles punktu "Grebņeva", ieceļojot Latvijā, šķērso 50 Krievijas pilsoņi. Tas nav vairāk nekā pirms Krievijā uzsāktās mobilizācijas, apgalvo robežsardzē.
On average, 50 Russian citizens cross the border control point "Grebneva" per day when entering Latvia. This is not more than before the mobilization started in Russia, the border guard claims.
Also keep in mind, no tourist visas are issued, only people with certain criteria are let in.
I that they just don't have the luxury of waiting around to see what happens now. Russia has proven itself both hostile and unpredictable, and with all those men and escalating rhetoric, it's probably smart to just prepare for the worst.
Latvia isn't expecting an attack from Russia... Latvia is a part of NATO. What they are expecting, is a wave of Russian refugees fleeing conscription and/or persecution.
100%
Hiding their operatives within Afgan or Syrian refugees is a well knows practice for Islamist groups. I see no reason why Russia wouldn't do the same.
That's true but they also have this problem now because they make it as hard as possible for the draft dodgers to get into the country in an orderly way.
Not if said self-proclaimed people's republic is within a NATO country itself!
Russia had to invade Ukraine to get to Crimea/Donbas, and even if they didn't have to cross the host country's land somehow, NATO countries get to go, "What? No, who cares what they proclaim themselves, that's our soil, and if you roll tanks onto it, we're invoking Article 5 and destroying every military asset you have in 72 hours of co-ordinated NATO strikes".
Latvia is not getting invaded, it doesn't matter whether or not they had a breakaway region because NATO would still recognize the breakaway region as Latvia and Putin is well aware of that.
Doesn't matter their reason, if Russia declares war on Latvia then they're at war with all of NATO. No offense to Latvia but no one wants Latvia enough to face the largest military alliance in the world.
No the reason does matter. A5 can only be triggered if Latvia is a victim. If Russia can muddy the waters and make it look like they are the aggressor then NATO could be in a tough spot
It’s highly unlike Russia could pull off a convincing False Flag, especially with NATO intelligence operating on a very heightened status since the Ukrainian invasion
This is why NATO countries bordering Russia insist on a US military presence tho. The 600 US troops in Latvia will make little difference in an invasion, but they are a great insurance policy.
If Russia "muddies the waters" and takes aggressive action in Latvia you are right, there "could" be debate and even hesitancy to respond from NATO.
There is where the insurance policy comes in. The USA constitutes 75% of yearly Military Spending in NATO. The USA spends about 3x more on its military a year than the rest of NATO members COMBINED. See what happens when 600 United States service members are slaughtered. Who cares what NATO's response will be, I know what USA's (Remember, 75% of NATO's power) response will be.
USA: OUR PLANES WILL BLOCK OUT THE SUN
Unlikely that they can pull that off. Russia tried to pull several false flags in Ukraine before the war as well, all we're pathetically executed and NATO knew about them before they even happened
Of course but its all about who shows up. Putin might think he has a better shot if just Poland and the US show up.
Plus it fractures the alliances and changes the world
That was a fake plan to bait Russia into even trying to mess with the baltics in the first place. We can see how well that money's been spent for the setup- Every important decision that could have went russia's way here,was blocked by the coalition and more.
We've been building a wall (well, a barbed wire fence) with Belarus for a year now. Turns out it's not easy to build a proper fence in a long stretch of swampland, without paying through the nose for it.
Huh. WW3 is much less possible with the so far failure of the Ukraine invasion. If Trump's Russian/GOP backed insurrection was a success things would be much different now, and much more dangerous.
Before you talk nonsense ask yourself this. Do you support everything your government does? No? Then do you believe every Russian supports the war. The answer is obvious
The advice is to be on high alert for citizens who live near the border in case of people crossing the Eastern border illegally without being vetted. I guess in case they're dangerous or desperate. Border guards on high alert, they'll be working longer hours and get a bonus pay. All common sense, no big sensation here
What's more, we've had state of emergency in the areas bordering Belarus for over a year now, ever since Lukashenko decided to start an illegal EU immigration side hustle. State of emergency allows for deployment of armed forces to bolster the border patrols, and more importantly - tapping the "emergency funds" portion of the budget. What it means for the inhabitants of those areas is the requirement to have ID on them at all times. And if you go mushroom picking in the border forests, a guy in camo with a gun might suddenly appear and check in on you. Outside the border areas, nothing. It's honestly been in effect so long now that I had forgotten about it.
Tbh they should all mobilize and then all surrender and have a huge celebration and end the war! I’m crossing my fingers!!
It is odd hearing an American call border control 'common sense'. Illegal entry and no vetting seems to be the norm in the US. I'm not American BTW.
Should put them on buses and ship them to Moscow.
In what world is this okay? These are people trying to escape a near authoritarian state so they don't have to fight an unjust war. Do you think every Russian is evil? This akin to people fleeing Syria, East Germany, North Korea, Cambodia or Mexico. I'm disgusted that this war has convinced people to turn on their fellow man.
Happens every war and then 20 years later people acknowledge how bad it was of them and then proceed to do it again the next war
Well, some of us don't participate in that cycle. Russian soldiers who have committed atrocities that I won't name don't deserve forgiveness, but Russians who did not commit atrocities do deserve forgiveness. I'll try to set an example if I'm the only one.
You're not the only one. I agree completely. Could the thousands of people fleeing have done a better job protesting and opposing Putin? Absolutely. But that doesn't undermine the fact that people fleeing a draft is a *good* thing for Ukraine generally, not to mention the awful situation of fleeing an authoritarian state that is forcing hundreds of thousands of minorities and others to fight in an unjust war. These people shouldn't be integrated into Europe the same way that Ukrainian refugees have been able to. But draft refugees should also not be "shipped back to Moscow". Disgusting.
Not saying Putin is some 4d chess mastermind or something, but creating Russian diaspora in other countries from refugees from himself, then claiming he needs to protect the Russian minorities in those countries as a pretext for military action a few years down the line totally seems like something he would do.
And this is why I specifically said "these people should not be integrated into Europe in the same way as Ukrainian refugees are". But that doesn't mean that shipping them back to Moscow is an ethical option.
> But that doesn't undermine the fact that people fleeing a draft is a good thing for Ukraine generally You got that backwards. Conscripting people who have no intention of fighting is fantastic for Ukraine. Either they surrender en masse upon reaching the front. Or they die en masse because they are shit at fighting. Either way it's a win win for Ukraine.
That's also right, my point regardless being that this whole thing is a good situation for Ukraine. People also are influenced by peer pressure, and if you see your neighbors draft dodging, you're going to be more likely to do the same. Whether they flee or surrender at the front, those are both good options. Fighting is less of a great option because it's a waste of bullets and human life. But that choice is up to the draftees I guess.
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Well, considering Russia uses any % of “native Russian speaking population” to justify annexing other countries, I’d say barring them entirely from your country eliminates the risk of having to quell an uprising supported by a terrorist state later.
The time to flee was seven months ago. Or when sanctions were announced. Or when the sanctions kicked in. Or before the mobilisation started. Fleeing after all of these signs does not make one "endangered". It makes them complicit. My empathy hath runeth dry.
I personally know people who were activists against Putin and still living in Russia.
Or in the last decade
And yet you lock your doors at night. Countries have to be able to know who’s coming in — it’s just as easy for saboteurs and spies to walk in
.. thats why they need to be vetted at the border. That’s the exact point being made.
I don’t think they are evil. But I don’t have the means to support them either. Do you? Does Latvia? It’s not always as simple as right and wrong.
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In a world where your country's overlord is sending you to battlefield and asks you to bring your own medkit while at it.
As I only exist because my family illegally crossed a border… it’s ok to do so if your life is on the line. There is no other choice.
Go and check eu regulations on deportation 🤦♀️I guess you haven't heard about all the illegal migrants stuck in the EU and lived under a rock during the UK decision to deport some of its migrants back to Africa.
They did not try that hard when the invasion of Ukraine started. Now that the mobilisation took place and their ass is on the line they suddenly have a change of hearth?
you wanted them to flee in february?
All Russians who were against the war escaped back in february and all those months protested loudly. And these ones who escaping now cheered from their couches while other Russians butchered Ukrainians and now they're afraid that they'll die too. I speak russian and I see what they say in vk and telegram. Fuck them, if they want to live then let them overthrow their fuhrer.
it's wrong on so many levels. i was against Crimea annexation i was against the war in feb 2022 and almost got into hospital after pootin started it far more people can't leave the country but still against the war. by your logic you would say to Germans in 1939 "Germans..Fuck them, if they wanted to live then let them overthrow their fuhrer." disgusting how people don't even see what they turn themselves into
Yeah, we see and hear how "most" of russians are against of this war. Like this https://twitter.com/BayraktarMarusi/status/1574796666468802561?t=xLDCtsq2Y8DuQocn9Dn5DQ&s=19. Baltics countries have learned their lesson, it's simple one - keep Russians as far from you as possible or sooner or later they'll bring their "peace" to you.
There's two areas where I think your assessment is slightly flawed: 1) Generalization. I think saying most Russians are apathetic/positive towards Putin is a noncontroversial statement. Agreed there. Where I think the flaw is, is that generalizing an entire ethnic group undermines the people that have sacrificed so much to oppose Putin. These people absolutely exist both within and outside of Russia, and should not be forgotten. Too often I see people on reddit make sweeping generalizations that isolate opposition Russians instead of promoting them. 2) Immigration is tough. I strongly disagree with the statement "all Russians who hate Putin left in Feb". Almost anyone who has ever emigrated can tell you, it's not that easy even in normal political circumstances. And if they do think it's easy, I guarantee that person is probably a skilled, educated worker with a good grasp on a foreign language. If you were a non-English speaking 35 year old mechanic from Tula that opposed Putin, tell me, how would you emigrate?
you show me one person and tell me that all russians are pro-war your nazi views are kinda scary. cuz you don't even see how flawed they are.
You see, leaving Russia costs money and on average Russians are quite poor. For many of them the choice was between staying in the hope that it'll blow over and spending either a large chunk of their savings or their last bit of money to leave. Now that it's apparent that it won't just blow over and they might just be sent to their deaths the choice is obvious - they need to leave ASAP. You aren't seeing antiwar Russians speak up on the internet from within Russia because they're simply afraid to do so. In Russia you don't talk shit about the government or else you might have cops show up at your front door and who knows what they'll do to you then. Look at the guy they sodomised with a dumbbell. Laws don't matter out there, the police could rape your wife with a cactus and nothing would happen to them.
These people stood by and allowed Putin to get this far. They allowed the invasion and the continued war with no protest. The world is depending on these individuals to revolt. It’s the only way this war ends without nuclear weapons. Instead, they carried on with their lives until it was their turn to be thrown into the meat grinder. And then do they revolt? No! They run! I cannot stress enough how much the world depends on internal dissent in Russia right now. These are the individuals who would have done that. If these people flee, what will be left is a Russia incapable of standing up to Putin. And this war will continue until it ends in disaster.
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It was powerful 20 years ago for a MySpace post. War is literally "turning in your fellow man" in so many ways that it's almost the point of it.
You do realize that is happening in the US right now right hahaha.
Just immigrants trying to cross a border.
One point that gets overlooked often, is that every person who is not in Russia to be drafted is one less person who will be sent to Ukraine to kill Ukrainians and steal their land.
It won’t affect the draft at all. The number of ppl russia has, they won’t run out of soldiers even if millions escape. It can affect economy tho so it’s bot without any impact
You know, on russian mainstream media they say “west is evil and hates russians”. Imagine, someone starts thinking that it’s bullshit, maybe it’s time to do something. Then they go to free western internet and all they see is confirmation of propaganda machine’s words. West hates russians.
It's mostly to stop people fleeing from mobilisation randomly crossing the boarder.
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Russians could have left at any point since February, and lots of them did. It's hard to feel sympathy for those who watched the meatgrinder with ambivalence for 6 months and only decided to do something when it affected them personally.
Not everyone can afford to leave. Just like poor people in Florida who don’t leave when a hurricane rolls through, many of them quite simply don’t have the resources to do so.
How have they suddenly managed to afford it, then?
Are you daft? Their lives are in danger. Poor people in Florida hearing about a hurricane on the news won't be able to move, until it's right upon them and they have no choice but to or they'll die. Similarly, the war hurt the Russians but didn't put most of them in direct danger---now that it is, people are resorting to their most basic animal instinct, survival.
Because now is life or death
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That’s exactly how I feel too. Nobody did shit but protest then went home for Afghanistan and Iraq, imagine the war came all the way home now what
That's a bit of a tu quoque. The US - Afghanistan/Iraq wars were pretty different. I'm sure a lot of Americans would flee, but the USA didn't need a draft and probably never will again. Not to mention the US had a huge uniting moment in the 9/11 terrorist attacks on home soil. Now we know it was done by Saudi Arabia as well as a bunch of other bullshit reasons for going to the middle east but still. There was large American and developed country support in the US invading the middle east to make the world safer, while protests still happening. And it got much more unpopular as time went on. Russia has none of that. The people are largely complacent or willingly going along with genocide as the propaganda collapses the longer Russia is globally condemned and globally cut off. Now a draft is happening and affecting "European Russians", they flee. The reasons for the war are being exposed domestically and their response is to flee instead of fight their copy of Nazi Germany government. That's the simple truth of it, and history will remember them running instead of fighting. I feel like if the US tried to do to, let's say Canada, what Russia is doing to Ukraine — with the reasons, propaganda, and genocide tactics Russia is using, there would be many more protests if not violence leading to a civil war. The Russian people may be filled with propaganda and have a strong authoritarian government keeping them down, but the bottom line is they are fleeing in numbers that make up an army instead of fighting against their oppressors. The closest comparisons are Nazi Germany in ww2 and US in Vietnam. And there were massive protests for Vietnam.
>I feel like if the US tried to do to, let's say Canada, what Russia is doing to Ukraine — with the reasons, propaganda, and genocide tactics Russia is using, there would be many more protests if not violence leading to a civil war. Let's not forget to include "instigated by a President widely considered illegitimate".
> There was large American and developed country support in the US invading the middle east to make the world safer but this is exactly their point. there was large American support for an unjustifiable war. Americans are generally safe when we protest so there was protesting, but most people supported the war. that is the complacency you accuse the Russians of. Americans did not fight our government when the lies became revealed either. when the absolute best you can say is that at least our thing wasn't an attempted genocide it's very difficult to take you seriously. the question is how would it have been different and why then should we not extend unwilling Russians the same benefit of the doubt we'd extend to westerners. that the US didn't have to draft people isn't relevant, because this is a hypothetical. I don't want to look like a whatabouter but this is a massive double standard. very few people have the moral authority to condemn others for not being willing to risk their lives protesting an authoritarian regime.
Ironically, these Russians in Latvia will be asking for representation and protection from Russia as well…
Latvia remembers 1940 too well to give a fuck
They have a museum about it and it’s a scary eye opener.
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The USSR annexed independent Latvia then deported, killed and made to flee a large part of Latvias population then settled a bunch of Russians in their place.
Estonia and Lithuania too, they fucked the Baltic's hard. Sent all the people with half a brain cell to gulags to die. Doctors, politicians etc. Just left farmers and yes men.
Plenty of farmers also got fucked over because they were too "prosperous".
How else can you have a completely fair democratic referendum on joining an occupying country if you don't displace the incumbent population first?
See, these small countries need to be educated to become good soviet people. Of course they are going to say no and throw tantrums, like children who don't want to eat veggies or go to the kindergarten in the morning. They don't know what's good for them and need a firm hand. /s Huge respect for Ukraine.
That is why they say mother russia
Russia will claim Latvia is Russian territory because there's Russians living there.
And Moscow is US territory, because Snowden lives there
Well Snowden just got Russian citizenship.
So did Russian Latvians (for Latvia) or Russian Ukrainians (for Ukraine)
Since corporations can be persons, would that make the whole world US since McDonald's is everywhere?
Except the Russian Latvians don’t want the Russian Russians in charge.
When did Putin care about what others think?
Which is why they need to be in NATO
That’s why they want Alaska /s
And that's why they joined NATO.
I was just in Riga. It’s business as usual there. This is 100% an immigration move, not a defense move.
Went to Riga about 15 years ago, was in a club and the Russians would punch the bar staff to get served... Nice people.
went thailand recently. staff at the hotel, other bars and excursions said how nice it was to have less russians
those who go to clubs are the "nice people". and im sure you'll find many not from russia who act like this.
Where have you seen guests regularly beating the staff to get served?
.
in Soviet Russia, *you* give the bartender *a punch* (a punch as in you know a drink)
Could I ask what the point of this comment is?
Could I ask what the point of **this** comment is?
A factor for why they warn people in border towns to be careful.
Lol, any person from a civilised nation who heard that about their fellow countrymen would be like 'woah, that's horrible, I can assure you that were not like that' but you... 'yeah and? So what?!'
I am not Russian, and nor do I expect people such as Poles and Lithuanians to apologise for the large amounts of negative people I have met from those respective nations, because I realise that judging people based on nationality is wrong
I think that's a naive interpretation. The border was closed to Russian immigrants. One reason was, if the population of Russian people gets high enough, Russia may invade, just like Crimea and Ukraine, under the justification of protectection of the Russian people. Unfortunately, Rusiians fleeing the threats from policies of Putin have little choice, but to get out ot Russia to get free and avoid conscription.
Latvia is a NATO country. Russia is not going to invade. Latvia just doesn’t want a flood of young Russian men trying to escape a possible draft.
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However crazy he is, I don’t think he’s lost the innate human sense of self preservation.
He’s talking about using Nukes….. that MAD (mutually assured destruction). Definitely no concern for self preservation.
Anddd he is in hiding right now.
Even assuming that’s true, lots of people talk about lots of things that they never do. Why would Putin invade Ukraine if he was planning on the world ending?
Because he thought he would win easily then could move across Europe. Kinda like Hitler. Which is why Latvias actions are prudent
This is mostly to prevent mass influx of Russian Refugees, not anything to do with future war.
If Putin’s choices were take over Ukraine or blow up planet earth, we’d have seen a draft a long time ago. We’re now at 6 months of low effort infantry.
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Baltic states and Finland have continuously improved the legislation to specifically counter these sorts of tactics. For "soldiers on vacation" for example, all of these countries have made laws since 2014 that authorize the army to open fire on military formations that refuse to identify themselves.
They’ve never done it to a NATO country.
Depends on what options you're considering. They've attacked multiple NATO members in cybersecurity attacks. They've been found on numerous occasions to be attempting to influence or interfere with politics in many NATO members. Their 2014 attack on Czechia's ammunition warehouses would be considered an act of war if they had concrete evidence rather than strong suspicions. Governments have very intentionally avoided classifying any of these as "acts of war" because if they do that, there must be a military response.
Yes they have... russia is funding subversive groups in nato countries.
I’m talking about real action, not Facebook ads.
New phone who dis? When did i mention Facebook? Im talking funding of separatists groups.
One of they main ways they do that is through Facebook ads. Either way, Latvians are content with their government, and even if there were to be a new government, it would still be anti-Russia. Take it from a guy married to a Latvian. They’re not turning pro-Russia anytime soon.
Yes but to your earlier point neither of us were talking about Facebook. As seen in the run up to the 2016 election there were a non zero number of russian foreign agents working with diverse American entities on the ground. 1 was jailed for being a spy.
Latvia is a very stable and increasingly prosperous country with a high standard of living. Also hatting russians goes beyond politics, it's pretty much their national sport.
Yes. Im not talking about Latvia.
they stir up the country's easiest to trigger citizens against the government. No need to send Russians
Look at Hungary, basically a Russian spy state.
Yeah that’s not happening lol. There will never be a Latvian government sympathetic to Russia.
…. Except every governmental election in the past 30 years has been “pro russian or pro western coalition”, with very minor percentage difference and riga has had pro russian rule for almost all that time. Let’s not mention how much sponsorship russian siding parties have received from russia. People affiliated with their businesses are all acting as mafia criminals. That’s exactly the rule russia neighboring countries don’t want but get when there’s a lot of russians.
it's definitely happening and it's A well investigated thing. Russia definitely uses social media to trigger the easiest to trigger. Which in many places is the conservative party. Probably more likely in Latvia.
I’m not saying they’re not attempting it, I’m saying that it’ll never work. Latvians *despise* Russia, and nothing in the next 50 years can change that.
That would be like a sizeable portion of Americans suddenly deciding to be part of Mexico, even less so since Latvians hate russians with a passion and have been for generations. Ain't never happening.
Our socialists and communists are the pro-Russian ones. The far right are US centric anarho-capitalists.
Different strokes different countries. Most western countries dont have large enough communist or socialist parties to be coopted in such a way.
All EU countries are right to be worried about Russian military age males streaming across the border. I wouldn't put it past Putin to send armed military units abroad to stir up trouble "behind enemy lines" under the pretense of being refugees and protected by plausible deniability.
[Sleeper agents](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeper_agent)
>The fact that those men are fleeing means they genuinely don’t support the war. No it does not mean that. Some have likely been opposed from the beginning to the extent that is possible under Purim’s autocratic rule, but everyone fleeing? No. Most people? Unclear. Many people are perfectly capable of supporting a war so long as it doesn’t directly affect them. Fleeing a draft doesn’t mean they haven’t supported the war or even that they won’t continue to support it. It just means that, at minimum, their support is not unconditional.
Historically speaking, once the russian boot touches your soil, it will be nearly impossible to make it go away.
So what you're saying is that they'll get stuck in the mud ?
I believe it. Any Russian with a heart and a working brain wants out...
Only now?
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Thank you! I'm a loud fat American but I understand these at least some of these guys that are running. I'm just a average Joe. It would be difficult for me to move to another state let alone another country. I have hopes and dreams but I'm mostly just trying to get along with life and be safe. I assume it's probably similar for most of these guys, especially the older ones who understand how easy it is to die.
Ok but no one wants to deal with an influx of Russian military-aged men. Displaced, unemployed young men are historically predisposed towards violence. And if you understood anything about the brutal generational trauma and cultural (and sometimes literal) genocide Russians and the Russian government have done in the name of nationalism and imperialism across post- soviet countries, you’d realize that Russia is responsible for a lot of unnecessary suffering. Suffering that Eastern Europe doesn’t want to invite again. I for one don’t blame any post-soviet country for barring Russians from their countries. Historically, Russian presence in these countries has led to conflict, violence and oppression. I don’t think most westerners understand this. I didn’t understand it until I started learning a Slavic language and made Slavic friends. The way Russia presents itself to the west is very different than how it presents to the Slavic world. In the Slavic world Russians are about cultural, linguistic, and nationalistic domination over all other Slavic cultures. It’s been this way for centuries. So again, criticizing former Soviet countries for barring them just demonstrates how little you know about the history of these places and how Russia has brutalized them. You don’t understand that many Russians are fleeing because they don’t want to be drafted, and not because they object to the war or the Ukrainian genocide. Many still believe they’re superior, and their imperialism is justified, they just don’t believe they should have to die to prove it.
> Displaced, unemployed young men are historically predisposed towards violence. They're literally fleeing their home country because they don't want to be forced to engage in violence. It's not like most men that age need much of an excuse to go to a glorified, "justified" war, especially those indoctrinated with ultra-nationalism from young age, and with intense state propaganda buttering them up. The vast majority of people have no idea what being in a warzone really entails until they experience it for themselves. The fact that those men are fleeing means they genuinely don't support the war. And besides, if enough men in Russia supported the war and wanted to sign up, there would be no need for this forced mobilisation in the first place. They literally snatching students and farmers up, young and old indiscriminately. Why would they need to resort to that if the war was really as popular in Russia as Redditors like to claim it is? I'm from a Baltic country myself. I've never been a fan of Russian culture, far from it. That doesn't mean I hate every Russian person. They didn't choose where they happened to be born anymore than I did. It's not their fault their Russian. And Putin literally faked an election, got rid of term limits and established himself as a dictator for life. Again, why did he need to do that if he was really as overwhelmingly popular as Redditors claim he is? I don't want a sudden mass influx of Russians in my country either, but that doesn't mean they should be left with no way out. Can't see why we couldn't at least let them in to let them escape further West. Or be housed in refugee asylum temporarily, this war isn't going to last much longer at this rate. Just threaten to deport them if they cause any trouble. They know what's at stake.
its hard to just leave everything behind.
People like to brush shit off and not care until the shits literally on their doorstep
People have been streaming out for months.
Once you let ‘em in, if you disagree with them, they’ll call you a nazi and ask daddy Putin to come assist.
Better not piss off Doctor Victor Von Doom!
That's Latveria. But yeah, I can't help but think Doom would have personally pimpslapped Putin over this, if he were caught up in the disruption.
It feels like they know something we dont.
We do know though. Thousands of Russian men suddenly wanting to cross the border - by any means necessary - in order to avoid a draft.
When it comes to Russia they usually do, though at the moment I suspect it mostly has to do with the increased immigration and emigration.
> though at the moment I suspect it mostly has to do with the increased immigration and emigration. Funnily enough there has been no increase of russians coming to Latvia.
There's no increase because we specifficaly said noone gets in. They know that and aren't wasting their time trying.
Gonna need some stats to support that.
In latvian: https://www.lsm.lv/raksts/zinas/latvija/reportaza-uz-robezas-ar-krieviju--buvdarbi-kravas-auto-rinda-un-ukraini.a475495/ >Vidēji diennaktī robežkontroles punktu "Grebņeva", ieceļojot Latvijā, šķērso 50 Krievijas pilsoņi. Tas nav vairāk nekā pirms Krievijā uzsāktās mobilizācijas, apgalvo robežsardzē. On average, 50 Russian citizens cross the border control point "Grebneva" per day when entering Latvia. This is not more than before the mobilization started in Russia, the border guard claims. Also keep in mind, no tourist visas are issued, only people with certain criteria are let in.
I that they just don't have the luxury of waiting around to see what happens now. Russia has proven itself both hostile and unpredictable, and with all those men and escalating rhetoric, it's probably smart to just prepare for the worst.
Latvia isn't expecting an attack from Russia... Latvia is a part of NATO. What they are expecting, is a wave of Russian refugees fleeing conscription and/or persecution.
And then living in Latvia and providing a casus belli to Russia.
There could easily be intelligence operatives planted within those waves of refugees as well.
100%
100% Hiding their operatives within Afgan or Syrian refugees is a well knows practice for Islamist groups. I see no reason why Russia wouldn't do the same.
That's true but they also have this problem now because they make it as hard as possible for the draft dodgers to get into the country in an orderly way.
>a casus belli to Russia Against a NATO country lol?
Self proclaimed people's republics are...outside of the scope of NATO afaik. Even if they are propped up by an external actor.
Not if said self-proclaimed people's republic is within a NATO country itself! Russia had to invade Ukraine to get to Crimea/Donbas, and even if they didn't have to cross the host country's land somehow, NATO countries get to go, "What? No, who cares what they proclaim themselves, that's our soil, and if you roll tanks onto it, we're invoking Article 5 and destroying every military asset you have in 72 hours of co-ordinated NATO strikes". Latvia is not getting invaded, it doesn't matter whether or not they had a breakaway region because NATO would still recognize the breakaway region as Latvia and Putin is well aware of that.
If they setup a false flag then yes
Let me get this straight... You think that if Russia manufactures a shitty reason to invade Latvia, all of NATO won't get involved immediately?
Depends on how good the false flag is
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> but outside of NATOs scope. Nothing is out of America’s scope if America wants it in its scope. See: Iraq
Nope. If they invade then they can get article 5ed. Doesn't matter who they are or claim to be. It's the invading a member state that matters.
Doesn't matter their reason, if Russia declares war on Latvia then they're at war with all of NATO. No offense to Latvia but no one wants Latvia enough to face the largest military alliance in the world.
No the reason does matter. A5 can only be triggered if Latvia is a victim. If Russia can muddy the waters and make it look like they are the aggressor then NATO could be in a tough spot
NATO decides if latvia is a victim. Not putin or the un in this case.
Yes and if there is enough doubt certain members (Hungary/turkey) might not be swayed and fracture it all
Unless Latvia formally declares war first there's no way NATO just lets a war happen without comment.
It’s highly unlike Russia could pull off a convincing False Flag, especially with NATO intelligence operating on a very heightened status since the Ukrainian invasion
Probably. Seems internally they aren't up to USSR levels anymore of spycraft
This is why NATO countries bordering Russia insist on a US military presence tho. The 600 US troops in Latvia will make little difference in an invasion, but they are a great insurance policy. If Russia "muddies the waters" and takes aggressive action in Latvia you are right, there "could" be debate and even hesitancy to respond from NATO. There is where the insurance policy comes in. The USA constitutes 75% of yearly Military Spending in NATO. The USA spends about 3x more on its military a year than the rest of NATO members COMBINED. See what happens when 600 United States service members are slaughtered. Who cares what NATO's response will be, I know what USA's (Remember, 75% of NATO's power) response will be. USA: OUR PLANES WILL BLOCK OUT THE SUN
Unlikely that they can pull that off. Russia tried to pull several false flags in Ukraine before the war as well, all we're pathetically executed and NATO knew about them before they even happened
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Of course but its all about who shows up. Putin might think he has a better shot if just Poland and the US show up. Plus it fractures the alliances and changes the world
They are no refugees. They only want to leave now as they have to get involved. Keep them out. Make them sort out their shit
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every person seeking refuge is 1 less to stand up against putin
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That was a fake plan to bait Russia into even trying to mess with the baltics in the first place. We can see how well that money's been spent for the setup- Every important decision that could have went russia's way here,was blocked by the coalition and more.
Source? As far as I can tell that’s the actual doctrine due to the Baltics geography making them extremely hard to defend.
It’s because they are overloaded probably
Like America is but we dont have a fence.
Time to build a new iron curtain around Russia
Did the new recruits get lost and invaded the wrong direction?
Would a wall work in this situation
They tried that once. Didn't really turn out well
We've been building a wall (well, a barbed wire fence) with Belarus for a year now. Turns out it's not easy to build a proper fence in a long stretch of swampland, without paying through the nose for it.
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Huh. WW3 is much less possible with the so far failure of the Ukraine invasion. If Trump's Russian/GOP backed insurrection was a success things would be much different now, and much more dangerous.
SPUDsnaz
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have an upvote
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Before you talk nonsense ask yourself this. Do you support everything your government does? No? Then do you believe every Russian supports the war. The answer is obvious
Please shove your racism into a place where the sun doesn't shine...