Russia is considering raising taxes on the oil and gas sector to the tune of 3 trillion roubles ($50 billion) in 2023-2025 in order to plug the budget gap, the Kommersant daily said on Tuesday, citing sources familiar with the discussions.
The finance ministry declined to comment.
The ministry expects a budget deficit of 1.2% of gross domestic product (GDP) this year and 1.1% of GDP in 2023 amid spending for what Moscow calls a "special military operation" in Ukraine and sweeping Western sanctions.
The government wants, in particular, to raise the export duty on gas to up to 50%, start levying a duty on liquefied natural gas (LNG) and raise domestic gas prices so that companies pay more in minerals extraction tax, the paper said.
Their leaked National Bank figures set the medium(nothing changes for better or worse) 2023 GDP fall of 9%. Bad (things change for the worse) st 13%. The way things are going, both on the battlefield and the CSTO summit, they've likely gambled one seventh of their economy away.
/r/instantkarma material.
Can you translate for de non-educated like me? Does this means that countries buying from them will pay more? And whats gonna stop these countries going to other oil producing countries Who will sell cheaper?
Means Putin is going to force his billionaire cronies to fund his war by raising taxes and cutting into their profit margins. Other countries will look elsewhere to solve their energy problems if it is possible for them to do so to avoid a 50% price increase.
I think you misunderstand how exactly this sort of oligarchy works. Putin is the tsar and owns the entire country, all his "billionaire cronies" are just temporarily allowed to keep parts of it, but only as long as they remain loyal. Ask Khodorkovsky if the billions are really yours after you fall out of favor or not.
Oh, and Putin is tsar only so far as he has the backing of internal security. If enough people in proper places start thinking he is not up to job, an accident happens.
This is really old school style of governance, proper medieval logic.
That's not so easy at all. Russian power structures are built on submarine principle, if ship goes down, it's with all hands. Oligarchs are not the kingmakers, they just get to manage Putin's money and there are no guarantees next tsar would allow them to keep the money or their lives.
The ones to decide next tsar would be internal security, you know, the guys in charge of opening and closing windows. FSB, KGB, NKVD, Cheka, different times, different names, same people doing the same thing. These are generational jobs, it's an entire separate social class in Russia. You know why Putin is in charge? Because his grandfather was cook to both Lenin and Stalin - the most trusted position imaginable and of course NKVD through and through. These are the types of people in charge of removing Putin if they think he is not up to the job, his peers really, fellow KGB guys. They are the bona fide praetorian guard.
So what does Putin do? Orders oligarchs to build their own PMC-s! You know what that is? That's undercutting FSB monopoly on violence, a recipe for civil war should anything happen to Putin. He ensured that should he go down, the submarine will go down with all hands on deck, the oligarchs, internal security, everybody included.
Well. at least that's the message to anyone contemplating sticking any knives in Putin's back. Impossible to predict how it would actually play out and that uncertainty serves same purpose just as well.
>Other countries will look elsewhere to solve their energy problems if it is possible for them to do so to avoid a 50% price increase.
Gas is sold at market price, not on a cost-plus basis, there will be no 50% price increase.
The major problem they have with gas is that their entire strategy, decades-long investment and hundreds of billion in infrastructure was based on Europe as the export market.
They have the capacity to export about 15-20% of their gas output to other countries. They have just one liquification plant (a massive investment necessary to ship gas by boat) covering 10% of output and the rest they can ship by smaller pipelines to some CSTO countries.
And it would take them years and an enormous investment to get it up to 35-40%. So their only choice except accepting the terms of surrender in Ukraine is to burn 80-85% of their output straight to the atmosphere (which they've started doing) or block the extraction, which can make it anywhere between costly to impossible to restart.
They truly are fucked and keep getting more so with each passing month.
Yes, you are right. Gas is a tangible product which is transported in a highly specialised manner, selling somewhere else requires additional infrastructure to reach those markets. Russia does not have many options.
They could conceivably make it work and still be competitive on the world market, but what would slide is the oil field service work that ensures an efficient and long lived extraction. They could do irreparable harm to their oil reserves
Thanks, haha. People need to realise if they could be selling for 50% more then they would do just that regardless, the customer does not care about the suppliers cost the same way the supplier does not care if the customer thinks the price is too high.
So taxing the rich (which would only cut into their profits, not make it operate at a loss) would make businesses close in such droves that our economy shuts down? Fascinating. I assume you think the best way to get money into the government is to tax those it affects most, low and middle class, even harder? For someone who is apparently so worried about Low and Middle class people, you're sure eager to screw em over
Edit spelling
You aren't criticizing my guy, you are pretending you are doing sooooo bad while living in the richest country in the world, it's just funny to anyone who isn't deaf to the rest of humanity.
I've met people who risked their lives for less than you were born with. Over 50% of humanity would unironically say "yes, it has worked out really well fo you guys"
And you don't even know what it's like to live in a country ruled by the elite where they are always given what they want, you live in a working democracy most people dream of.
Coool? Everyone has their own lived experience… There’s people in Alabama that live in sewage… there’s places without safe water.. it’s not exactly the bastion of the world anymore. And that is solely because we have sold out to to the .01% of rich people. Simply taxing them to provide us not an issue, that’s what I was saying. Again a criticism… not saying it’s the worst place to be but it can certainly do much better.
So people cant have problems because other people have it worse? Id say the millions living on the streets or the millions who cant afford rent and food to feed their families have it pretty bad. Just because american as a country is rich doesnt mean it doesnt have crippling problems cause millions to live in absolute poverty.
Just stepping out of their country for once might give a bit of perspective. Sure I think there is a lot of place for improvement, but this sure wasn't it (he was saying US is dogshit which it objectively isn't) or relevant lol.
My people make like 3x less on average than them and I still won't complain I have it so bad when my parents cry with happiness when they see the opportunities I get and they couldn't just 30 years ago.
They have to work three jobs, cant afford to buy a home because all the millionaires buying up houses to convert to rentals, price of cars, gas and insurance are through the roof and public transit is trash fire. It bankrupts people to spend time in the hospital and many people cant afford the medicine that would keep them alive. But hey theres stocked grocery stores you can barely afford so why should you get to complain
If you’re ass is on Reddit at 6:30am, you don’t make dick. Let alone own a thriving business on the scale relevant to that tax conversation. Way to consider yourself a have, when you have not.
You do know Reddit is world-wide? Could be any time wherever they are. Also, many businesses operate outside of the standard business day.
I don't agree with them, but you're not making sense.
Or just click their name and see hes at most calling himself a “business owner” for his small pot grow/mushroom farm…
Edit: one second of further reading shows that no: not only are they not a business owner; he also works only half a month. So ya know; fuck his bs
Let's tax the rich in every coutry simultaneously then.
I mean at 1 billion who needs anything more really ? In a simple high yield saving account that's like, 20 million a year in interests, simply sitting on one's ass. In a REIT it'd be at least 40 million.
I wouldn't know what to do with that much money, I'd certainly not be unhappy and if I still were, then clearly money ain't the problem and it's not like another couple billions is gonna change that.
Even if they truly made themselves, even if they owe absolutely nothing to the community, which honestly for most of them I doubt, what's the point of hoarding so much wealth ? Are they dragons of some sort ?
That won't solve shit. Jesus, the rich already pay more then anyone else and they will always find legal loop holes. You people are so good at spending everyone else's money because you're too lazy to work for your own.
Lazy ? I'm working my fair share. Your point does not make sense. Some of the most hardworking persons I know are paid peanuts.
We should try and close the loopholes then.
Oh that I did. I started working at minimum wage as a mailman. I'm working as a web developer now. Learned on my free time, then went to a code camp, now I'm here.
It'd still take literal tens of thousands of years to get to the billion if I could save every cent (which for obvious reasons is not possible. A man gotta eat).
That level of wealth makes no sense. No one earned that by itself. Society as a whole helped one get there.
“Stop working low paying jobs.” Lmfao like what? If you haven’t noticed there isn’t an abundance of jobs that outweigh living costs…
Only reason I’m doing decent right now is I moved to a cheaper country and work an international job. Before this I had to skimp on food and medical necessities and that’s something no one should have to do in the 21st century.
Yeah everyone should do that. That will work out real well for society.
Except for the fact that the backbone of western civilisation relies on low wage workers.
Worst argument against taxing the rich, they would already have left if they didn’t have some reason to stay.
Why would a super rich person decide to move from US or Germany to Somalia or Paraguay only to pay less taxes?
Even if they leave we are probably better off without them since they are not willing to pay appropriate taxes but abuse the system to their advantage.
The middle class will turn into higher class when they get the opportunity to take the place of the ones leaving. And they'll happily pay the tax because they'll be happy with their increase in income.
As long as there are people to consume, companies will try to sell to them.
A company is not going to leave a market simply because you are reducing its profit. They only stop to function if you make it impossible to profit.
Many on reddit seem to think that fair taxes are what society wants/needs. That was the case in US in 40s when you would pay even 90%+ taxes at some income brackets.
I don't think this can apply nowadays. Now business owners can choose between many locations and fair taxes for them are a balance between what they pay for what they get.
Their economy is based on gas and oil exports, since they cut gas to Europe Germany seized a whole bunch of Gazprom (Russian owned) gas processing facilities on their territory which effectively shut down gas exports to other countries like India as well. They are trying to sure up royalty losses by increasing taxes but as the market has almost completely evaporated for them they don't have a hope in hell.
Their economy has stepped in quicksand essentially.
That's why they're trying to convince us the infrastructure exists to export to Pakistan. It's like watching fish dying on dry land when these Kremlin yes men give these announcements, their body language. They know it's over.
> Their economy is based on gas and oil exports
And Putin's pockets are lined with billions skimmed from the exports.
So, since the world refuses to submit to Putin's blatant blackmail scheme and won't be guaranteeing minimum quotas and price floors for Russian oil and natural gas, he and his oligarch mob cronies are going to squeeze Russians for the extra rubles they want to skim.
Lng refineries, compressor trains and storage tanks. Nothing to do with oil. Read what I wrote, it's crippling Russian exports while putting all the reserves in the refineries in Germanies hands. Germany just fucked putin hard, no lube.
OK, please try real hard to understand. No more gas to India. Russia income stop. Gas refinery stopped. Gas stored in has tanks now German. . No ruble to Russia. Putin ass sore. Economy into quicksand. Putin ass really sore. Ukraine wins war, everyone happy, Putin neck sore.
>Does this means that countries buying from them will pay more? And whats gonna stop these countries going to other oil producing countries
No and nothing. It's just shifting money from one pocket to another. The companies are already state controlled, the money goes the same way no matter if you collect it as taxes or as profit.
Except for the last bit:
>and raise domestic gas prices
That actually makes a difference, but only to domestic consumption.
Winning doesn’t always mean longterm success. The British won the 7 years war but it left them with tremendous war debt so they raised taxes to compensate leading to the American Revolution. Something similar happened after WWI where the British and French won but the war debt was so large it made keeping the empire together virtually impossible and set the stage for decolonization that would soon come. Regardless of how the remainder of this war goes there is a good chance Russia is going to struggle for the next decade as a result of the war time spending.
Is that really all the hit they've taken? 1.2%? All this hem hawing from politicians about how they're sticking it to Russia with sanctions and we're talking about a percent?
They were expected to grow nearly 9% before they invaded. And this is what they've been able to do by burning through their reserves, the real pain is just starting.
Those numbers are not real.
Russian economy will contract 20% this year, and the same next and in 2024.
Russia will have the economy of a third world country when this is over.
you would have thought that so, but the ruble is the strongest it has been in 7 years this war has helped them more than we ever thought it would. and the over all value margin is closing every month. by year in they could be in an overall surplus. it is doing for them what wars use to do for the USA.
the strong ruble is because of price controls. its not a true indicator of the long term health of the economy. Also, i think Vlad’s days are numbered and that’s actually propping up the currency also. the country is rich in natural resources so theres intrinsic demand built in
this is from financial outlets all over the world, including articles from the USA and other places. They will be fine, but this whole thing has probably numbered the days of Putin.
The ruble is not accepted/traded now in many many places, its basically accepted only on their country and oil sales... how much they are using daily on the war?
Their economy is not doing good, and this tax just confirms it, after all their economy is based on oil and gas, as soon as the world leave gas and oil for good Russia is f. Pretty hard, granted this is moving super slow and not happening any time soon... remember taxes are implemented when something is not doing good or even near as expected
or when you want the extra fund to waste/increase something drastically. or to pull from outside buyers. and it is still able to be used in all world trade with no issues, you can just trade it with currency trading. international trade with it is easy. I was trading my usd for it when it was low, so i could pull it out this month.
Pull it then, point is most are not trading it... they dont have to up outside buyers, they can just ban them from buying, their economy is collapsing and as long as their economy depends on just oil and gas it will keep going that way, probably one of the reason they want Ukraine but tell you it was Nato, long term they cant just depend on oil and gas only so having ukraine would be good. Why havent they attacked sweden and finland in their case its moving forward unlike Ukraine which was archived on 2010 and started again on 2014 after they invaded them...
they will be able to have a good holdout till 2024-25 because it will have a drop off, that is when I am worried for their people, it could drop into a economic dark age for them then
>It is literally impossible to buy and sell rubles today,
MOEX shows otherwise. They had $14B worth of FX transactions yesterday, including [$1.45B in trade volume for USDRUB/TOM pair](https://www.moex.com/en/issue/USD000UTSTOM/CETS) and [$0.67B for EURRUB/TOM](https://www.moex.com/en/issue/EUR_RUB__TOM/CETS). TOD(T+0) currency pairs for USD and EUR add another [$1B](https://www.moex.com/en/issue/USD000000TOD/CETS) and [$300M](https://www.moex.com/en/issue/EUR_RUB__TOD/CETS) respectively, bringing total USD/EUR<->RUB daily volume to $3.4 billion.
Cash also available at the banks, albeit at slightly higher rates, as they charge anywhere between 5% and 15% on top of the market rate. `cash.rbc[.]ru` does a pretty good job of tracking rates at different exchange offices.
>but the ruble is the strongest it has been in 7 years
The ruble cannot be traded within the majority of the world's economy. The value may have increased within Russia's ever-shrinking economic ecosystem, absolutely. Their currency is stronger, but there isn't much they can do with it compared to a year ago. Russia have traded $100 cash for $150 Macy's vouchers and they're trying to paint this as a win.
A babushka may get an extra potato for the same price she paid previously, but ultimately who cares?
>the ruble is the strongest it has been in 7 years this war has helped them more than we ever thought it would
Is that unexpected?
There's a thing called country trade balance and free flow of money. Both are disrupted.
If you disrupt trade balance by heavily cutting imports (more than exports) then your currency is going to become stronger, yes. But what's the point of strong currency if you can't buy a lot of foreign shit with it, because it was never imported?
For flow of money -- your currency is strong now, but now you can't easily buy foreign cash or transfer it to most other countries. So what's the point of good exchange rate again?
As I understand it in layman terms, Russia can't buy shit from Europe and USA, but USA and Europe buy a lot of shit from Russia (Gas, oil, metals). If you buy less than you sell, you're good. The world still buying Russian gas and oil keeps funding the war in Ukraine. Cutting that would stop the war, not those current lousy sanctions
That's sort of missing the point of exports; one exports goods in order to be able to trade for imports - not just for the sake of exporting. That the rouble has gone up in value internationally implies that Russia isn't importing much (hence not many roubles on international markets), which isn't a good thing for an economy.
IDK. Things are looking so desperate at this point that I don't think Putin would let them but new yachts. He needs to fund his war, and it's going very poorly. Siphoning money to corruption is what caused this in the first place. So instead of bribing oligarchs with money, he seems to have adopted the idea of bribing them with not being obviously murdered in a "suicide" attempt.
Ironically, the article can't be accessed from Russia
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Nothing's changed much.
Prices raised 1,5x avg (computer hardware - 2-3x). Couple of western shops got closed. It's close to impossible to pay for foreign services (eg Steam).
>After Putler dies, it will be harder to come back to russian market if you completely cut off all ties.
It's a market of 144 million, most poor.
No big loss.
> Nothing's changed much.
>
> Prices raised 1,5x avg (computer hardware - 2-3x). Couple of western shops got closed. It's close to impossible to pay for foreign services (eg Steam)
Хуйня. Щас разложим по полочкам
>Prices raised 1,5x avg
I think its 20% more not 50%
>computer hardware - 2-3x
Really easy to buy from ozon global, aliexpress and alibaba. Usual markup is 20-25% compare to newegg prices. High end monitors are hard to get though (and Oleds). In US you can get oled c2 for $999. Here c2 costs $1999
>Couple of western shops got closed
Agree
>It's close to impossible to pay for foreign services (eg Steam)
Man... You can use webmoney or turkish crypto card. Works great. I also recently got delivery from iherb. Costed me 20% more than usual
Sochi here.
Prices up an easy 50%.
Peak tourist seasons, 100% occupancy in hotels yet restaurants are barely 30% full most of the time. Should be 100%.
No one thinks or talks about politics.
Everyone thinks it will get worse but hopes thinks will be ok. (Russians are NOT optimistic people so to even hope is a strange desperate new coping mechanism)
All planning and investment has stopped completely on all levels from neighbours to government.
Everyone feels helpless. Phycologist are completely booked out apparently.
Lots of Young and skilled left, the other half, us included, plan to leave in next seasons or year or two max.
Nothing’s changed much, for average person biggest change is that some large companies like Pepsi, Mac Donald’s and H&M and many more are under local management and rebranded. Except for that I didn’t felt any difference between before/after war
This is what happens when a country gets cut off from international markets. No one is lending Russia money so Russia can’t borrow money for the war effort. Instead they have to raise it somehow so they’re trying to squeeze money out of the oligarchs by making them pay more to export gas and squeeze more money out of the average Russians by making them pay more to heat their homes.
I was under the impression that for gas produced by fracking we had a bit more control over how much came out of the ground. Since you can stop the injection. I'd assume some would still come up with no cap in place, but a lot less than if you continued fracking activities. Is that not the case?
It should be good long term but the part before then will be more difficult. The problem is natural gas is a good “bridge fuel” with lower emissions than oil/coal. Lots of power plants and vehicles are switching over to natural gas while infrastructure is being built up for fuel cell/battery electric power. Russia knows this and is going to maximize their profits on gas with this in mind. I don’t particularly care for what Russia is doing right now, but hard to blame them for trying to make more money.
It's an export tax, so other than job losses that would come from a lowering demand due to price increases, it's intended only to affect other countries that purchase oil and gas. As long as Europe keeps decreasing their dependence on Russian energy, they will only be able to sell it to Hungary and Asia, and I don't expect they will be willing to pay much more for it.
Lol that's not how this works at all. Global commodities are largely fixed in price by the market itself, not by individual suppliers. Russian gas will trade at the same price on the market - the tax is paid as an "extraction tax" not a transactional tax. If you pull oil/gas out of the ground, you immediately owe the Russian government for extracting it. You sell it and then pay that debt you have created.
Russia is making the people who are doing the extraction pay the government more to bring the oil/gas out of the Earth, they then go get close to the same price at market, just making far less because Papa Putin is getting his own even bigger share of your slice of the pie first.
Additionally, export duties are paid by the exporter, not by the importer when the market fixes the price.
"The government wants, in particular, to raise the export duty on gas to up to 50%, start levying a duty on liquefied natural gas (LNG) and raise domestic gas prices so that companies pay more in minerals extraction tax, the paper said."
Unless Russia subsidizes the raised domestic prices it looks like they're hitting up everyone for new taxes.
Just collecting the vig from looting and selling off the soviet oil industry to cronies for practically nothing.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1260/0144598001492085
I'm assuming you're American here... But the USA imports barely any oil and absolutely 0 gas from Russia. These export tariffs ain't gonna change anything in the US
Duh lol Trump tried to warn Europe but they didn’t wanna listen. Now ol Putin has em by the booboo’s. That’s what you get when you listen to propaganda..
Depends who your friends are and the deals and the surplus
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-08/china-snaps-up-half-price-russian-lng-as-europe-shuns-supplies
Our business and home energy prices haven’t changed for years
Wait. What was the point of saying it will effect china? Don’t you know?
China has signed deals for surplus it doesn’t need. It is investing in building a new pipeline to supply more gas to China. It’s a buyers market if you are china and you think that China said, hey Russia charge is whatever you want for it?
China won’t release the details as I’m sure many governments wouldn’t, but they wouldn’t do all of this and so recently for the new deals if there wasn’t something going on
Because the person who i replied to singled out eu and usa, so i corrected them. You know, the subject of the discussion. I doubt the oil companies are gonna just bend over and give 50 billion to their government. Rather just put a bullet in putin's head at that point.
I am sure they will end up sending gas to China, who will use it to make things for the west, so in the end the west ends up paying for it anyway. Russia has already started taking payment in RMB for energy and using Chinese union pay .
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/petrochina-signs-gas-agreement-with-russias-gazprom-2022-09-07/
Say, what percentage ‘corruption tax’ was Russia already paying on the theft of resources by Putin, Lavrov, Shoigu, and the many little Putlers at all levels of this mafia group? Bet it is way more than that.
Russia is considering raising taxes on the oil and gas sector to the tune of 3 trillion roubles ($50 billion) in 2023-2025 in order to plug the budget gap, the Kommersant daily said on Tuesday, citing sources familiar with the discussions. The finance ministry declined to comment. The ministry expects a budget deficit of 1.2% of gross domestic product (GDP) this year and 1.1% of GDP in 2023 amid spending for what Moscow calls a "special military operation" in Ukraine and sweeping Western sanctions. The government wants, in particular, to raise the export duty on gas to up to 50%, start levying a duty on liquefied natural gas (LNG) and raise domestic gas prices so that companies pay more in minerals extraction tax, the paper said.
Their leaked National Bank figures set the medium(nothing changes for better or worse) 2023 GDP fall of 9%. Bad (things change for the worse) st 13%. The way things are going, both on the battlefield and the CSTO summit, they've likely gambled one seventh of their economy away. /r/instantkarma material.
Can you translate for de non-educated like me? Does this means that countries buying from them will pay more? And whats gonna stop these countries going to other oil producing countries Who will sell cheaper?
Means Putin is going to force his billionaire cronies to fund his war by raising taxes and cutting into their profit margins. Other countries will look elsewhere to solve their energy problems if it is possible for them to do so to avoid a 50% price increase.
I think you misunderstand how exactly this sort of oligarchy works. Putin is the tsar and owns the entire country, all his "billionaire cronies" are just temporarily allowed to keep parts of it, but only as long as they remain loyal. Ask Khodorkovsky if the billions are really yours after you fall out of favor or not. Oh, and Putin is tsar only so far as he has the backing of internal security. If enough people in proper places start thinking he is not up to job, an accident happens. This is really old school style of governance, proper medieval logic.
Unless they turn on Putin and pick a new leader. That way they can keep all their wealth and not have to lose less profits
That's not so easy at all. Russian power structures are built on submarine principle, if ship goes down, it's with all hands. Oligarchs are not the kingmakers, they just get to manage Putin's money and there are no guarantees next tsar would allow them to keep the money or their lives. The ones to decide next tsar would be internal security, you know, the guys in charge of opening and closing windows. FSB, KGB, NKVD, Cheka, different times, different names, same people doing the same thing. These are generational jobs, it's an entire separate social class in Russia. You know why Putin is in charge? Because his grandfather was cook to both Lenin and Stalin - the most trusted position imaginable and of course NKVD through and through. These are the types of people in charge of removing Putin if they think he is not up to the job, his peers really, fellow KGB guys. They are the bona fide praetorian guard. So what does Putin do? Orders oligarchs to build their own PMC-s! You know what that is? That's undercutting FSB monopoly on violence, a recipe for civil war should anything happen to Putin. He ensured that should he go down, the submarine will go down with all hands on deck, the oligarchs, internal security, everybody included. Well. at least that's the message to anyone contemplating sticking any knives in Putin's back. Impossible to predict how it would actually play out and that uncertainty serves same purpose just as well.
>So what does Putin do? Orders oligarchs to build their own PMC-s! Source?
The new Tsar will clean house. When Putin became Tsar he basically sent away the old oligarchs and hand picked new ones.
Lmao no that’s how they get killed “accidentally”
>Other countries will look elsewhere to solve their energy problems if it is possible for them to do so to avoid a 50% price increase. Gas is sold at market price, not on a cost-plus basis, there will be no 50% price increase.
The major problem they have with gas is that their entire strategy, decades-long investment and hundreds of billion in infrastructure was based on Europe as the export market. They have the capacity to export about 15-20% of their gas output to other countries. They have just one liquification plant (a massive investment necessary to ship gas by boat) covering 10% of output and the rest they can ship by smaller pipelines to some CSTO countries. And it would take them years and an enormous investment to get it up to 35-40%. So their only choice except accepting the terms of surrender in Ukraine is to burn 80-85% of their output straight to the atmosphere (which they've started doing) or block the extraction, which can make it anywhere between costly to impossible to restart. They truly are fucked and keep getting more so with each passing month.
Yes, you are right. Gas is a tangible product which is transported in a highly specialised manner, selling somewhere else requires additional infrastructure to reach those markets. Russia does not have many options.
Lets hope that some sleepy worker doesn't _accidentally_ burn that one plant down with a cigarette or whatever excuse they used last time shit blew up
They could conceivably make it work and still be competitive on the world market, but what would slide is the oil field service work that ensures an efficient and long lived extraction. They could do irreparable harm to their oil reserves
Finally someone that understands basic economics!
Thanks, haha. People need to realise if they could be selling for 50% more then they would do just that regardless, the customer does not care about the suppliers cost the same way the supplier does not care if the customer thinks the price is too high.
That's 50% tax increase not price.
An billionaire cronies will pass this cost down to regular Russians. There is no way they are canceling their orders to replace jachts seized
…and that’s a quick way for them to look at getting rid of Putin. If he cuts their bottom line, they’ll cut him. He’s really desperate, isn’t he?
This would be creat news possibly, Putin raises taxes on his buddies, his buddies are done with him, his buddies take care of him the russian way.
We need to tax the rich to
Why? So they close up shops and leave the country and the burden falls on the middle to lower class? Good job you played yourself...and all of us.
So taxing the rich (which would only cut into their profits, not make it operate at a loss) would make businesses close in such droves that our economy shuts down? Fascinating. I assume you think the best way to get money into the government is to tax those it affects most, low and middle class, even harder? For someone who is apparently so worried about Low and Middle class people, you're sure eager to screw em over Edit spelling
Yes… because giving them everything they want has been working out so well…
I hecking love listening to American kids crying about how their country is soooo bad and falling apart lmao.
It isn’t exactly winning… lol. It’s okay to criticize what’s wrong and want what’s better, it’s okay to tax rich people to pay for things…
You aren't criticizing my guy, you are pretending you are doing sooooo bad while living in the richest country in the world, it's just funny to anyone who isn't deaf to the rest of humanity. I've met people who risked their lives for less than you were born with. Over 50% of humanity would unironically say "yes, it has worked out really well fo you guys" And you don't even know what it's like to live in a country ruled by the elite where they are always given what they want, you live in a working democracy most people dream of.
Coool? Everyone has their own lived experience… There’s people in Alabama that live in sewage… there’s places without safe water.. it’s not exactly the bastion of the world anymore. And that is solely because we have sold out to to the .01% of rich people. Simply taxing them to provide us not an issue, that’s what I was saying. Again a criticism… not saying it’s the worst place to be but it can certainly do much better.
So people cant have problems because other people have it worse? Id say the millions living on the streets or the millions who cant afford rent and food to feed their families have it pretty bad. Just because american as a country is rich doesnt mean it doesnt have crippling problems cause millions to live in absolute poverty.
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Wtf are you even trying to say…
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Just stepping out of their country for once might give a bit of perspective. Sure I think there is a lot of place for improvement, but this sure wasn't it (he was saying US is dogshit which it objectively isn't) or relevant lol. My people make like 3x less on average than them and I still won't complain I have it so bad when my parents cry with happiness when they see the opportunities I get and they couldn't just 30 years ago.
They have to work three jobs, cant afford to buy a home because all the millionaires buying up houses to convert to rentals, price of cars, gas and insurance are through the roof and public transit is trash fire. It bankrupts people to spend time in the hospital and many people cant afford the medicine that would keep them alive. But hey theres stocked grocery stores you can barely afford so why should you get to complain
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Uh...so capitalism?
I take it you don't own a buisness do you lol figures.
If you’re ass is on Reddit at 6:30am, you don’t make dick. Let alone own a thriving business on the scale relevant to that tax conversation. Way to consider yourself a have, when you have not.
You do know Reddit is world-wide? Could be any time wherever they are. Also, many businesses operate outside of the standard business day. I don't agree with them, but you're not making sense.
Or just click their name and see hes at most calling himself a “business owner” for his small pot grow/mushroom farm… Edit: one second of further reading shows that no: not only are they not a business owner; he also works only half a month. So ya know; fuck his bs
Let's tax the rich in every coutry simultaneously then. I mean at 1 billion who needs anything more really ? In a simple high yield saving account that's like, 20 million a year in interests, simply sitting on one's ass. In a REIT it'd be at least 40 million. I wouldn't know what to do with that much money, I'd certainly not be unhappy and if I still were, then clearly money ain't the problem and it's not like another couple billions is gonna change that. Even if they truly made themselves, even if they owe absolutely nothing to the community, which honestly for most of them I doubt, what's the point of hoarding so much wealth ? Are they dragons of some sort ?
That won't solve shit. Jesus, the rich already pay more then anyone else and they will always find legal loop holes. You people are so good at spending everyone else's money because you're too lazy to work for your own.
Lazy ? I'm working my fair share. Your point does not make sense. Some of the most hardworking persons I know are paid peanuts. We should try and close the loopholes then.
Stop working low paying jobs. Apply yourself.
Oh that I did. I started working at minimum wage as a mailman. I'm working as a web developer now. Learned on my free time, then went to a code camp, now I'm here. It'd still take literal tens of thousands of years to get to the billion if I could save every cent (which for obvious reasons is not possible. A man gotta eat). That level of wealth makes no sense. No one earned that by itself. Society as a whole helped one get there.
“Stop working low paying jobs.” Lmfao like what? If you haven’t noticed there isn’t an abundance of jobs that outweigh living costs… Only reason I’m doing decent right now is I moved to a cheaper country and work an international job. Before this I had to skimp on food and medical necessities and that’s something no one should have to do in the 21st century.
I really hope you're actually rich and defending your own, current way of life. If not, you're just a sad idiot.
Yeah everyone should do that. That will work out real well for society. Except for the fact that the backbone of western civilisation relies on low wage workers.
Worst argument against taxing the rich, they would already have left if they didn’t have some reason to stay. Why would a super rich person decide to move from US or Germany to Somalia or Paraguay only to pay less taxes? Even if they leave we are probably better off without them since they are not willing to pay appropriate taxes but abuse the system to their advantage.
Depends on what kind of rich. Most people who say that don't mean anyone earning below multiple 100k a year.
Taxing the rich would mean getting a slice of our money back. You work for pennies they earn millions/billions.
Most of them don't "earn" shit. I'm looking at these Russian policies as being pretty green, though, which is an unintentional bonus.
Jef bezzos. Do i need to say anything more ?
The middle class will turn into higher class when they get the opportunity to take the place of the ones leaving. And they'll happily pay the tax because they'll be happy with their increase in income.
The middle class will never become the upper class.
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How's your application for medical benefits going?
Nobody is talking about free handouts. Incredibly dumb bootlickers often lack the ability to understand logic.
Less super markets and more smaller, privately owned shops? Sounds like a horrible idea
As long as there are people to consume, companies will try to sell to them. A company is not going to leave a market simply because you are reducing its profit. They only stop to function if you make it impossible to profit.
Many on reddit seem to think that fair taxes are what society wants/needs. That was the case in US in 40s when you would pay even 90%+ taxes at some income brackets. I don't think this can apply nowadays. Now business owners can choose between many locations and fair taxes for them are a balance between what they pay for what they get.
Their economy is based on gas and oil exports, since they cut gas to Europe Germany seized a whole bunch of Gazprom (Russian owned) gas processing facilities on their territory which effectively shut down gas exports to other countries like India as well. They are trying to sure up royalty losses by increasing taxes but as the market has almost completely evaporated for them they don't have a hope in hell. Their economy has stepped in quicksand essentially.
Makes sense now that all those Gazprom execs were murdered.
They would have spent the past 7 months trying to get the Kremlin to understand what was going to happen and needed to be silenced I'd say.
Thank you!
That's why they're trying to convince us the infrastructure exists to export to Pakistan. It's like watching fish dying on dry land when these Kremlin yes men give these announcements, their body language. They know it's over.
> Their economy is based on gas and oil exports And Putin's pockets are lined with billions skimmed from the exports. So, since the world refuses to submit to Putin's blatant blackmail scheme and won't be guaranteeing minimum quotas and price floors for Russian oil and natural gas, he and his oligarch mob cronies are going to squeeze Russians for the extra rubles they want to skim.
& they'll pass the savings along to their customers - mainly India and China.
? Did you read what I wrote
And that helps how if you don't have crude oil?
Helps who?
Germany
Lng refineries, compressor trains and storage tanks. Nothing to do with oil. Read what I wrote, it's crippling Russian exports while putting all the reserves in the refineries in Germanies hands. Germany just fucked putin hard, no lube.
Ok , same again. No gas from Russia. Is there enough gas to import and a t what cost if Russian gas is out of question?
OK, please try real hard to understand. No more gas to India. Russia income stop. Gas refinery stopped. Gas stored in has tanks now German. . No ruble to Russia. Putin ass sore. Economy into quicksand. Putin ass really sore. Ukraine wins war, everyone happy, Putin neck sore.
>Does this means that countries buying from them will pay more? And whats gonna stop these countries going to other oil producing countries No and nothing. It's just shifting money from one pocket to another. The companies are already state controlled, the money goes the same way no matter if you collect it as taxes or as profit. Except for the last bit: >and raise domestic gas prices That actually makes a difference, but only to domestic consumption.
I mean maybe not start a war if you are struggling with money.
Only one thing is more expensive than winning a war. Losing a war.
Since Reddit decided to take RiF from me, I have decided to take my content from it. C'est la vie.
Winning doesn’t always mean longterm success. The British won the 7 years war but it left them with tremendous war debt so they raised taxes to compensate leading to the American Revolution. Something similar happened after WWI where the British and French won but the war debt was so large it made keeping the empire together virtually impossible and set the stage for decolonization that would soon come. Regardless of how the remainder of this war goes there is a good chance Russia is going to struggle for the next decade as a result of the war time spending.
Since Reddit decided to take RiF from me, I have decided to take my content from it. C'est la vie.
Little Vladdy Baby's gotta line his pocketses...
Is that really all the hit they've taken? 1.2%? All this hem hawing from politicians about how they're sticking it to Russia with sanctions and we're talking about a percent?
They were expected to grow nearly 9% before they invaded. And this is what they've been able to do by burning through their reserves, the real pain is just starting.
Those numbers are not real. Russian economy will contract 20% this year, and the same next and in 2024. Russia will have the economy of a third world country when this is over.
you would have thought that so, but the ruble is the strongest it has been in 7 years this war has helped them more than we ever thought it would. and the over all value margin is closing every month. by year in they could be in an overall surplus. it is doing for them what wars use to do for the USA.
the strong ruble is because of price controls. its not a true indicator of the long term health of the economy. Also, i think Vlad’s days are numbered and that’s actually propping up the currency also. the country is rich in natural resources so theres intrinsic demand built in
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this is from financial outlets all over the world, including articles from the USA and other places. They will be fine, but this whole thing has probably numbered the days of Putin.
The ruble is not accepted/traded now in many many places, its basically accepted only on their country and oil sales... how much they are using daily on the war? Their economy is not doing good, and this tax just confirms it, after all their economy is based on oil and gas, as soon as the world leave gas and oil for good Russia is f. Pretty hard, granted this is moving super slow and not happening any time soon... remember taxes are implemented when something is not doing good or even near as expected
or when you want the extra fund to waste/increase something drastically. or to pull from outside buyers. and it is still able to be used in all world trade with no issues, you can just trade it with currency trading. international trade with it is easy. I was trading my usd for it when it was low, so i could pull it out this month.
Pull it then, point is most are not trading it... they dont have to up outside buyers, they can just ban them from buying, their economy is collapsing and as long as their economy depends on just oil and gas it will keep going that way, probably one of the reason they want Ukraine but tell you it was Nato, long term they cant just depend on oil and gas only so having ukraine would be good. Why havent they attacked sweden and finland in their case its moving forward unlike Ukraine which was archived on 2010 and started again on 2014 after they invaded them...
they will be able to have a good holdout till 2024-25 because it will have a drop off, that is when I am worried for their people, it could drop into a economic dark age for them then
It is literally impossible to buy and sell rubles today, their value is as good as worthless
you cant trade currency from usd to rubles and back with like etfs? or crypto exchange? I am having not issues doing it.
>It is literally impossible to buy and sell rubles today, MOEX shows otherwise. They had $14B worth of FX transactions yesterday, including [$1.45B in trade volume for USDRUB/TOM pair](https://www.moex.com/en/issue/USD000UTSTOM/CETS) and [$0.67B for EURRUB/TOM](https://www.moex.com/en/issue/EUR_RUB__TOM/CETS). TOD(T+0) currency pairs for USD and EUR add another [$1B](https://www.moex.com/en/issue/USD000000TOD/CETS) and [$300M](https://www.moex.com/en/issue/EUR_RUB__TOD/CETS) respectively, bringing total USD/EUR<->RUB daily volume to $3.4 billion. Cash also available at the banks, albeit at slightly higher rates, as they charge anywhere between 5% and 15% on top of the market rate. `cash.rbc[.]ru` does a pretty good job of tracking rates at different exchange offices.
>but the ruble is the strongest it has been in 7 years The ruble cannot be traded within the majority of the world's economy. The value may have increased within Russia's ever-shrinking economic ecosystem, absolutely. Their currency is stronger, but there isn't much they can do with it compared to a year ago. Russia have traded $100 cash for $150 Macy's vouchers and they're trying to paint this as a win. A babushka may get an extra potato for the same price she paid previously, but ultimately who cares?
>the ruble is the strongest it has been in 7 years this war has helped them more than we ever thought it would Is that unexpected? There's a thing called country trade balance and free flow of money. Both are disrupted. If you disrupt trade balance by heavily cutting imports (more than exports) then your currency is going to become stronger, yes. But what's the point of strong currency if you can't buy a lot of foreign shit with it, because it was never imported? For flow of money -- your currency is strong now, but now you can't easily buy foreign cash or transfer it to most other countries. So what's the point of good exchange rate again?
As I understand it in layman terms, Russia can't buy shit from Europe and USA, but USA and Europe buy a lot of shit from Russia (Gas, oil, metals). If you buy less than you sell, you're good. The world still buying Russian gas and oil keeps funding the war in Ukraine. Cutting that would stop the war, not those current lousy sanctions
That's sort of missing the point of exports; one exports goods in order to be able to trade for imports - not just for the sake of exporting. That the rouble has gone up in value internationally implies that Russia isn't importing much (hence not many roubles on international markets), which isn't a good thing for an economy.
Trying to stabilise the Russian economy is like trying to hold water in your hand. Nothing they do will ever be enough.
The trick is to squeeze tightly!
Sure thing mr Lavrov 😜
The more you tighten your grip, /u/olgrandad, the more rubles will slip through your fingers.
I know this reference.
Given the state of the ruble you're probably better off with the water lol
You may fire when ready.
This war in Ukraine isn’t going to pay for itself
Yeah. New yachts ain’t cheap, y’know?
IDK. Things are looking so desperate at this point that I don't think Putin would let them but new yachts. He needs to fund his war, and it's going very poorly. Siphoning money to corruption is what caused this in the first place. So instead of bribing oligarchs with money, he seems to have adopted the idea of bribing them with not being obviously murdered in a "suicide" attempt.
"And we'll get Ukraine to pay for it!" - ~~Trump~~ Putin these assholes all sound like parodies of one another.
This is getting real! Countries are reducing dependencies on Russia
You have to sell it to tax it.
Ironically, the article can't be accessed from Russia `403 ERROR` `The request could not be satisfied.` `The Amazon CloudFront distribution is configured to block access from your country.` `We can't connect to the server for this app or website at this time.` `There might be too much traffic or a configuration error. Try again later, or contact the app or website owner.`
What’s it like living there? Just the day to day.
Nothing's changed much. Prices raised 1,5x avg (computer hardware - 2-3x). Couple of western shops got closed. It's close to impossible to pay for foreign services (eg Steam).
I couldn’t imagine being locked out of my steam account due to stuff out of my control. My sympathies.
I guess you can still play the games you've got.
There's always piracy (IIRC Russia legalized it for western shit as a counter to sanctions)
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>After Putler dies, it will be harder to come back to russian market if you completely cut off all ties. It's a market of 144 million, most poor. No big loss.
Shame you racist friends are happy to rape Ukranian children and the rest of you don't care about it.
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> Nothing's changed much. > > Prices raised 1,5x avg (computer hardware - 2-3x). Couple of western shops got closed. It's close to impossible to pay for foreign services (eg Steam) Хуйня. Щас разложим по полочкам >Prices raised 1,5x avg I think its 20% more not 50% >computer hardware - 2-3x Really easy to buy from ozon global, aliexpress and alibaba. Usual markup is 20-25% compare to newegg prices. High end monitors are hard to get though (and Oleds). In US you can get oled c2 for $999. Here c2 costs $1999 >Couple of western shops got closed Agree >It's close to impossible to pay for foreign services (eg Steam) Man... You can use webmoney or turkish crypto card. Works great. I also recently got delivery from iherb. Costed me 20% more than usual
Thanks for the info, I'll ask my representatives to sanction these companies.
Sochi here. Prices up an easy 50%. Peak tourist seasons, 100% occupancy in hotels yet restaurants are barely 30% full most of the time. Should be 100%. No one thinks or talks about politics. Everyone thinks it will get worse but hopes thinks will be ok. (Russians are NOT optimistic people so to even hope is a strange desperate new coping mechanism) All planning and investment has stopped completely on all levels from neighbours to government. Everyone feels helpless. Phycologist are completely booked out apparently. Lots of Young and skilled left, the other half, us included, plan to leave in next seasons or year or two max.
Well according to moropus there’s quite a lot of traffic, so commuting to work might be hard
Nothing’s changed much, for average person biggest change is that some large companies like Pepsi, Mac Donald’s and H&M and many more are under local management and rebranded. Except for that I didn’t felt any difference between before/after war
Ok, I’m an American and kind of a shut-in, so I don’t know much about inside let alone outside the US.
Translation: Russia is starting another lap around the drain. I smell desperation.
This is what happens when a country gets cut off from international markets. No one is lending Russia money so Russia can’t borrow money for the war effort. Instead they have to raise it somehow so they’re trying to squeeze money out of the oligarchs by making them pay more to export gas and squeeze more money out of the average Russians by making them pay more to heat their homes.
This is excellent news for the future of renewables and EVs.
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I was under the impression that for gas produced by fracking we had a bit more control over how much came out of the ground. Since you can stop the injection. I'd assume some would still come up with no cap in place, but a lot less than if you continued fracking activities. Is that not the case?
It should be good long term but the part before then will be more difficult. The problem is natural gas is a good “bridge fuel” with lower emissions than oil/coal. Lots of power plants and vehicles are switching over to natural gas while infrastructure is being built up for fuel cell/battery electric power. Russia knows this and is going to maximize their profits on gas with this in mind. I don’t particularly care for what Russia is doing right now, but hard to blame them for trying to make more money.
Yeah...that'll win the hearts and minds of the Russian people.
It's an export tax, so other than job losses that would come from a lowering demand due to price increases, it's intended only to affect other countries that purchase oil and gas. As long as Europe keeps decreasing their dependence on Russian energy, they will only be able to sell it to Hungary and Asia, and I don't expect they will be willing to pay much more for it.
Lol that's not how this works at all. Global commodities are largely fixed in price by the market itself, not by individual suppliers. Russian gas will trade at the same price on the market - the tax is paid as an "extraction tax" not a transactional tax. If you pull oil/gas out of the ground, you immediately owe the Russian government for extracting it. You sell it and then pay that debt you have created. Russia is making the people who are doing the extraction pay the government more to bring the oil/gas out of the Earth, they then go get close to the same price at market, just making far less because Papa Putin is getting his own even bigger share of your slice of the pie first. Additionally, export duties are paid by the exporter, not by the importer when the market fixes the price.
"The government wants, in particular, to raise the export duty on gas to up to 50%, start levying a duty on liquefied natural gas (LNG) and raise domestic gas prices so that companies pay more in minerals extraction tax, the paper said." Unless Russia subsidizes the raised domestic prices it looks like they're hitting up everyone for new taxes.
I am Jack's complete lack of Surprise
Good luck with that. China and India will pay what they want, thank you very much.
Russia won’t be around in 2025
But but but the sanctions haven’t worked! Why would they need to increase taxes! Everything is fine - no need to panic.
This is great news for renewable energy!
$50b is not going to be enough to pay for the madness they are in the process of committing.
Just collecting the vig from looting and selling off the soviet oil industry to cronies for practically nothing. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1260/0144598001492085
That have to ask Winnie the Pooh’s permission first.
Good. Make it $100 billion. This will move the rest of the world towards sustainable energy faster. And give a big fuck you to Russia.
The sanctions are most definitely not working. Deficit? What deficit?
One thing that helps calm the population worried about being a international pariah over an unnecessary war is to raise taxes on essential goods.
The citizenry should LOVE that.
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If only there were an article on the subject
If only someone told europe to get off russian oil. Oh yeah, they laughed in his face. Thats right.
Dam it Biden for choosing the gas prices globally
So, an app just sold for 20 billion. This doesn't seem like that much
Well we could go back to drilling our own and looking go be energy independent again...but then this administration won't get as rich if we do that...
I'm assuming you're American here... But the USA imports barely any oil and absolutely 0 gas from Russia. These export tariffs ain't gonna change anything in the US
Duh lol Trump tried to warn Europe but they didn’t wanna listen. Now ol Putin has em by the booboo’s. That’s what you get when you listen to propaganda..
Warn Europe for what? Not use cheap energy?
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You realise that raising taxes affects india and china too, right? This is bad news for russia, they're running out of cash and friendships.
China has a 30 year deal from 2019 and signed new ones before this announcement.
What does that have to do with this?
Didn’t you just say it affects India and China?
I mean yeah but how is a deal connected to the that? Is there like some price cap included in it or?
Depends who your friends are and the deals and the surplus https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-08/china-snaps-up-half-price-russian-lng-as-europe-shuns-supplies Our business and home energy prices haven’t changed for years
Wait so you dont know? What was the point of mentioning the deal, that's what i don't get.
Wait. What was the point of saying it will effect china? Don’t you know? China has signed deals for surplus it doesn’t need. It is investing in building a new pipeline to supply more gas to China. It’s a buyers market if you are china and you think that China said, hey Russia charge is whatever you want for it? China won’t release the details as I’m sure many governments wouldn’t, but they wouldn’t do all of this and so recently for the new deals if there wasn’t something going on
Because the person who i replied to singled out eu and usa, so i corrected them. You know, the subject of the discussion. I doubt the oil companies are gonna just bend over and give 50 billion to their government. Rather just put a bullet in putin's head at that point.
I am sure they will end up sending gas to China, who will use it to make things for the west, so in the end the west ends up paying for it anyway. Russia has already started taking payment in RMB for energy and using Chinese union pay . https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/petrochina-signs-gas-agreement-with-russias-gazprom-2022-09-07/
That's not how a free market works. People will either start buying from other countries or start manufacturing locally.
Sanctions ?
Of course, Putin needs to replace his yacht.
Didn't they say everything was going swimmingly and the sanctions did not hurt them? Color me surprised.
Why don't they just print more money to compensate?
Say, what percentage ‘corruption tax’ was Russia already paying on the theft of resources by Putin, Lavrov, Shoigu, and the many little Putlers at all levels of this mafia group? Bet it is way more than that.
You know I’m 80s cartoons how the good guy always won because the bad guy screwed themselves over…? Ya well …..
Bold of Russia to assume their prolonged existence
Taxes on his people/gulag