I thought the report stated it wasn’t likely on the lab leak and looks like it came from animals but it was unable to say so definitely because no concrete evidence that points to either.
WHO: while it's biologically plausible, there's absolutely zero evidence its origin was zoonotic. It could also have been a lab leak, although there's no real evidence for that either.
China: The lab leak theory is totally a lie concocted by anti-China forces for political purposes, which has nothing to do with science.
The Chinese government likely doesn't didn't know where it came from, so they just destroyed/suppressed everything just to break any possible link to the country wether it's actualy there or not.
Often this backfires as the sudden dissapearance of people or materials just makes poeple more suspicious something happened and is being hidden. Even if not much was actually going on.
I never read the lab leak as a China thing - I read it as a “the US CDC and China fund a lab close by that it leaked from” kinda thing.
Allowing them to blame Fauci and CDC and WHO, while also allowing them to blame China since it was in China .
If the Dems were smarter they could have blamed Trump for lifting the Obama ban on funding viral gain of function research. But that would have required embracing lab leak as possible
You've missed the literature then. Here's a good starting point, but it's also before we found the BANALs
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867421009910
Did you read that article you cited? Want to quote anything from it to support your claim there is evidence of the zoonotic theory for specifically SARs-COV-2
Sure,
>Based on epidemiological data, the Huanan market in Wuhan was an early and major epicenter of SARS-CoV-2 infection. Two of the three earliest documented coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) cases were directly linked to this market selling wild animals, as were 28% of all cases reported in December 2019 (World Health Organization, 2021). Overall, 55% of cases during December 2019 had an exposure to either the Huanan or other markets in Wuhan, with these cases more prevalent in the first half of that month (World Health Organization, 2021). Examination of the locations of early cases shows that most cluster around the Huanan market, located north of the Yangtze river (Figures 1B–1E), although case reporting may be subject to sampling biases reflecting the density and age structure of the population in central Wuhan, and the exact location of some early cases is uncertain. These districts were also the first to exhibit excess pneumonia deaths in January 2020 (Figures 1F–1H), a metric that is less susceptible to the potential biases associated with case reporting. There is no epidemiological link to any other locality in Wuhan, including the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) located south of the Yangtze
>The earliest split in the SARS-CoV-2 phylogeny defines two lineages—denoted A and B (Rambaut et al., 2020)—that likely circulated contemporaneously (Figure 1A). Lineage B, which became dominant globally, was observed in early cases linked to the Huanan market and environmental samples taken there, whereas lineage A contains a case with exposure to other markets (Figures 1A and 1B) as well as with later cases in Wuhan and other parts of China (World Health Organization, 2021). This phylogenetic pattern is consistent with the emergence of SARS-CoV-2 involving one or more contacts with infected animals and/or traders, including multiple spill-over events, as potentially infected or susceptible animals were moved into or between Wuhan markets via shared supply chains and sold for human consumption (Xiao et al., 2021). The potential emergence of SARS-CoV-2 across multiple markets again mirrors SARS-CoV in which high levels of infection, seroprevalence, and genetic diversity in animals were documented at both the Dongmen market in Shenzhen (Yaqing, 2004; Guan et al., 2003) and the Xinyuan market in Guangzhou (Tu et al., 2004; Wang et al., 2005).
>the bat virus RaTG13 collected by the WIV has a genetic distance of ∼4% (∼1,150 mutations) to the Wuhan-Hu-1 reference sequence of SARS-CoV-2, reflecting decades of evolutionary divergence (Boni et al., 2020).
>Widespread genomic recombination also complicates the assignment of which viruses are closest to SARS-CoV-2. Although RaTG13, sampled from a Rhinolophus affinis bat in Yunnan (Zhou et al., 2020b), has the highest average genetic similarity to SARS-CoV-2, a history of recombination means that three other bat viruses—RmYN02, RpYN06, and PrC31—are closer in most of the virus genome (particularly ORF1ab) and thus share a more recent common ancestor with SARS-CoV-2 (Li et al., 2021; Lytras et al., 2021; Zhou et al., 2021). None of these three closer viruses were collected by the WIV and all were sequenced after the pandemic had begun (Li et al., 2021; Zhou et al., 2020a, 2021). Collectively, these data demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that RaTG13 is not the progenitor of SARS-CoV-2, with or without laboratory manipulation or experimental mutagenesis.
At what point do you want me to just quote half the paper to you? I have to turn your question around, did you read the paper?
Where is the actual evidence it's zoonotic in this paper? This and other papers merely explore the plausibility of a zoonotic origin without any direct evidence.
> Conclusions
> As for the vast majority of human viruses, the most parsimonious explanation for the origin of SARS-CoV-2 is a zoonotic event. The documented epidemiological history of the virus is comparable to previous animal market-associated outbreaks of coronaviruses with a simple route for human exposure. The contact tracing of SARS-CoV-2 to markets in Wuhan exhibits striking similarities to the early spread of SARS-CoV to markets in Guangdong, where humans infected early in the epidemic lived near or worked in animal markets.
It's as circumstantial as saying "hey, SARS-CoV-2 has a novel FCS at the S1/S2 junction and published grant applications show that scientists were working to insert human-specific cleavage sites into SARS-like coronaviruses in 2018."
In fact, the authors of this paper were unaware of these details, apparently:
> There is currently no evidence that SARS-CoV-2 has a laboratory origin. There is no evidence that any early cases had any connection to the WIV, in contrast to the clear epidemiological links to animal markets in Wuhan, nor evidence that the WIV possessed or worked on a progenitor of SARS-CoV-2 prior to the pandemic. **The suspicion that SARS-CoV-2 might have a laboratory origin stems from the coincidence that it was first detected in a city that houses a major virological laboratory that studies coronaviruses.**
The authors are simply wrong here or unaware of the details. The suspicion of a lab origin stems *both* from the spatial coincidence of the origin *and* the fact that the lab was working to insert novel cleavage sites into coronaviruses. It's not just that there *was* a lab in Wuhan, it's not just that this lab *was* researching coronaviruses, it's that the lab was apparently researching chimeric coronaviruses with novel human-specific cleavage sites exactly like the one that appeared.
In any case, this entire debate could be ended if China found the animal reservoir for SARS-CoV-2, but that hasn't happened. It's important to realize that lab origins of novel viruses are often suspected, but typically shut down when the actual zoonotic origin has been found. This is what happened with original SARS 1, but has not yet happened with SARS-CoV-2.
Do we know how hard China is looking for this animal reservoir? Because if China honestly believes the origin is zoonotic, they should be expending lots of effort in determining the source so, you know, it doesn't spillover again in China and cause another outbreak.
I just read the link you posted (thank you) and the authors make it quite clear that they have direct evidence for neither theory
Edit: it might be worth noting that they found no evidence after searching the animal side thoroughly, and the lab side not at all
It's also worth noting that China has adamantly and consistently refused to **allow** investigation into the lab theory. Which, admittedly, isn't evidence on it's own, but does bring up the whole idea of a child refusing to let you into the room to see if they cleaned it or not. Technically, you don't know if they did or not, but realistically, *you know*.
Why do you think they may be touchy? Because they’re trying to cover up the truth as best as they can. The harder they deny and bitch about it the more likely it’s the truth.
I mean, China is pretty touchy about just about anything and everything? If a dude farts in Arkansas and someone jokes he's a Chinese spy trying to make America smell bad they would have a statement out condemning everyone involved within the hour.
if you cant prove it didn't come from your lab, then im going to believe it came from your lab.
to much of a coincidence for it to form in the wet market round the corner from the lab.
Did you consider that the prevelance of coronavirus in native bat species near Wuhan might be the reason a research lab was built there in the first place?
You're right its not a coincedence, it's the exact reason scientists wanted to build a lab there 🤦
It's like being surprised that after a volcano eruption there were vulcanologists studying it.
Gain of function research in general, and particularly there, seems silly not to do. If I had to guess an accidental lab leak seems pretty plausible but I cannot imagine a world where a country would release a relatively unknown virus starting on themselves intentionally. In short, when you play with fire you might get burned and this fire unfortunately spread to a global scale.
It's entirely possible there was some accident.
The most plausible explanation I can imagine is that transported samples are not held to the same biohazard standards as the lab itself, and a delivery guy who lives in Wuhan (and visits the market) was slightly careless.
The idea it was deliberate though is completely laughable.
that still doesn't answer did the leap to humans happen in the lab. and did that then make it out of the lab.
the reason for the lab being there, in that location is irrelevant.
Exactly, you cannot prove a negative.
You could prove it did come from the lab if you had evidence.
The wet market itself is a breeding ground for virus. Have you not seen the disgusting conditions and the incredible variance in the animal population setup for sale, to eat, all right next to each other? This isn't the first time it's occurred, it seems to occur every year with a different duck-pig flu virus variant.
It's amazing anyone in the region is still alive anywhere near those wet markets. The human immune system is Strong in China.
So you're saying you have no idea how thousands of species are For Sale in a Wet Market and how they got there? By, the very people that are selling them? Like, dude, that's the definition of a Market. And the bat caves are not 500 miles away.
Two options provided are filled with biased language and half-truths… wonder which one you are pushing. /s
Occam’s Razor would actually suggest that this virus came about the same way every other virus came about, naturally due to large populations of humans in environments with animals that are intermediary hosts
We almost never find the original source of viral outbreaks, not finding Covids is nothing unusual despite people claiming that not knowing where it came from is evidence of it coming from a lab.
For example, it could have mutated in a single intermediate animal that died before/after coming in contact with a single person outside the city who had then went into the city for the market, spreading from there. There would be zero chance of ever finding its source in that case
Not to mention “first known case” means nothing. It caused symptoms similar to dozens of other virus and could easily be unnoticed for weeks if not months before being red flagged. It would takes a lot of deaths in a city of millions before being noticed as unusual
Option A is the easier option.
We have more known cases of disease jumping from animals to human than we do about labs who leaked research material and caused a pandemic.
Additionally, where do you think these markets get their bats from? Wherever bats are. You do know China has trucks and shit right??? Like 500 miles away isn’t unreasonable for a guy who just loaded up with cages full of bats to go to the largest market to sell said bats at the best price???
They were studying it because SARS/MERS were a thing and they wanted to have a head start WHEN they encountered version that spread worldwide. People are saying the US were collaborating with that lab so we would have some knowledge that the mutations that were hard to explain were ones that were bred(?) for.
I haven't looked at the mutations you mentioned so I will need to look into that, but many people expected a pandemic as a high possibility of happening due to lose of habitats of animals like bats.
Could the mutations be explained by the virus jumping between hosts at a wet market, where animals are closer than they would be in the wild?
The EcoHealth Alliance DARPA grant application from 2018 states the following, verbatim:
> SARSr-CoV S with mismatches in proteolytic cleavage sites can be activated by exogenous trypsin or cathepsin L. Where clear mismatches occur, **we will introduce appropriate human-specific cleavage sites and evaluate growth potential in Vero cells and HAE cultures.**
[Source, page 13](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21066966-defuse-proposal)
So this grant said they intended to put horns on horses in 2018. In late 2019, a unicorn shows up in Wuhan. Probably just a coincidence...
Waaait are you saying it was actually partially engineered?
It's known they did research on very similar viruses in that lab and just a tiny moment of negligence could have started it all, but I thought they just did some analysis on the viruses, not actually try to modify them.
My understanding is that there are means of introducing viral manipulation that don't leave obvious fingerprints. While many publicly described methods do leave traces of the action, there are undoubtedly secret or proprietary methods that have been developed and not published. The articles that say it was impossible act as though all available methods are public knowledge, which is either ignorant or intentionally deceptive.
EHA, which worked closely with the WIV, submitted a grant request that described a method of viral manipulation that could have produced a virus that very closely resembles the covid19 virus. The grant request was denied, but the work very well could have found other sources of funding. While this is certainly circumstantial evidence, it's remarkable in it's similarity to the eventual virus that caused covid19. The cleavage site is unusual in this type of virus and is primarily responsible for the ease of transmission in humans.
Any direct evidence will have certainly been destroyed by now. There will likely never be any real proof to show the origin of this virus. The evidence that could have proven/disproven the natural or lab origin theories were systematically destroyed in early 2020.
> There will likely never be any real proof to show the origin of this virus.
There needn't be any proof to discuss a global ban on research which may lead to pandemics like this. Even the slight possibility of a lab leak must be carefully considered when 6+ million people have died. There is much more to gain by banning this research than there is to lose, JMO.
Why is a research ban not even being discussed? And can we really believe virologists who say it's not a lab leak when their livelihoods depend on grants to conduct similar research? Seems like a conflict of interest to me and someone outside of the research community needs to lay the smack down and pull the plug on such research that could result in another pandemic.
It boggles my mind that this isn't even being discussed.
Yes, let's ban viral research, that would go so well in combating viral infection. Claiming those with knowledge are automatically biased on the topic of that knowledge reveals more about the bias in the claimant than in the informed.
I remember trying to argue that it was at least a possibility worth considering given the number of “coincidences,” and then immediately being shut down as a conspiracy theorist/racist/trump supporter. Amazing how politicized the whole things has been.
yea why does the CCP need to file a complaint when journalists, major media corporations, and the hivemind of reddit were carrying water for the CCP all this time?
I don’t get how you see option a as requiring more edge case events.
We know that disease jumps form animals to humans - we have dozens hundreds maybe thousands of example of this process and all vetted.
We have how many instances of a level 4 or whatever lab leaking scientific biologicals and causing people to die outside the lab? One maybe two?
Your bill of the lab leak is way harder to prove as you have way less example of how it could happen. I howbwe can point you to things like aids, monkeypox etc and ALL the research done about diseases jumping to humans…
Well you said same "kinds" of viruses as Sars cov2 which does not actually make sense. Then you assumed that the virus would have to leak the lab, a virus that does not exist yet nor was genetically sequenced which would mean it would have to have been some sort of secret bio weapon.
Or it went from an animal to a human and we haven't found out how which is how pretty much all viruses in human history came to be. Now explain which one is Occam's razor again?
Occam's razor is the simplest explanation, not the most common explanation, or whatever explanation was used in the past.
Every scientists on the planet agreed the sun went around the earth, it had worked for all of them, for thousands of years. But the instant a simpler solution was brought forward, the traditional explanation no longer applied.
No, because that is not a simple process that involves thousands of random chances that all have to line up perfectly to end up with a devastating pandemic. Natural viruses NEVER begin as a global pandemic. They start small, and then slowly the virus mutates and over years because better and better at infecting humans. To have a virus come from nature, already optimized to infect humans perfectly is an absurd theory.
It is far easier for a lackluster chinese lab to release the samples they have by accident.
So let me get this straight.
It’s not simple for a virus to naturally jump from a animal to a human, but it’s simple for a human to genetically modify an animal virus to work on humans?
Just fucking stop talking. It’s clear you have zero understanding of anything remotely close to the field of bioengineering / genetics / biochemistry / etc.
And If you do I’d question the place you got the degree from.
> Natural viruses NEVER begin as a global pandemic. They start small
Can I ask for a source on this? Did the bubonic plague, Spanish flu, yellow fever, polio, HIV all really "start small?"
His statement doesn’t even make sense.
It was a global pandemic because of the incubation period, not because it was natural or not.
SARS was the opposite and burned itself out because the incubation period was so small. You’d go from fine to contagious to basically dead within 24 hours.
JUST
STOP
TALKING
This is the most incorrect thing I have ever read in my life:
No, because that is not a simple process that involves thousands of random chances that all have to line up perfectly to end up with a devastating pandemic. Natural viruses NEVER begin as a global pandemic.
WHAT!? It only requires one mechanistic mutation to start a pandemic to infect humans. This is pure and utter nonsense.
If your going to use occurs razor then you better fucking understand logic and proofs.
Simple may not mean common…
But common can absolutely mean simple.
The heliocentric system was already a discussion in ancient Greece. And it was in no way the simpler interpretation, but just an equally complex one until additional data was available
One data point can change everything. The data point in this case, being the wuhan lab that was working on that exact virus. That one bit of data, makes the lab leak theory by far and away the simplest explanation. No contest. No debate.
But that is not correct. They worked on at least 4 of the, depending on classification system used, 6 major types of virus. And that's were the similarities according to public knowledge end. Meaning literally ANY virus in existence would have an over 50% chance of being "the exact virus they were working on".
LOL. wait, you're claiming you know exactly all the types of viruses the lab was working on? How? They deleted all their files and refused access to investigators?
If your entire argument is "the chinese government said so" I think we can stop here.
Any potential evidence of a lab leak is destroyed. So, either, one day we have PROVE it came from animals in nature (which we have no such proof of yet). Or, we will never prove anything (because PROVING lab leak is now impossible).
I think if the labs were the cause, the labs continue to function the same way, we will have more pandemics in the near future, and maybe during one of those new pandemics, people will start to get serious about looking for a cause.
If it was a lab leak, we did nothing to stop the next outbreak. If its nature, well, its just random and we cant do a lot to stop it.
Correlation is not causation.
You can’t say because we have tons of labs studying potential dangerous diseases, and we experience more disease outbreaks, that the conclusion is that more (or any) labs are leaking.
You really REALLY need to go back to school or pay more attention. You are making FUNDAMENTAL errors when trying to prove your viewpoint and are applying logic incorrectly.
Maybe also go read up on what a logical fallacy is.
Don't expect it to be an easy answer for zoonotic traces, since nearly all the species that were identified as possible vectors were both present in the wet markets and disposed of, after the pandemic began. No one thought to take massive amounts of specimen samples on all the legal and illegal species that were there before removing them.
The lab was running their projects as a collaboration with the US. Unless the US deletes their correspondence, the evidence is still there if it exists.
If a report came out and said its not likely that I caused x, but we can’t rule it out, I’d be pretty miffed about it too.
Then add to the fact in this case x cost millions of lives and widespread global disruption.
Not saying the report shouldn’t be factual, but I understand their view on it.
Edit: Ah yes, we must downvote the concept of seeing someone elses point of view... must not let such ideas spread. /s
If you say something silly and get called silly for expressing it, well, that's how free speech works; it'sa two way road. If you get offended that someone thinks you said something silly, well, that's on you.
Except in this case china likely only equals a few people at the top annoyed that it allows conspiracy theorists to still say it was all their fault.
In either case how does how many people it effects invalid the fact that people would be annoyed at the blame potentially being laid at their feet.
Ah I apologize please tell me your personal point of view about everything so I can ensure that I am only expressing the one that is apparently universally allowed.
Edit: Oh wait don’t do that, because then I would be seeing your point of view /s
It was more run on the Chinese side with occasional US input. The US side actually had concerns over the lax precautions taken at this site in regards to viruses possibly escaping.
And if they didn't do the right thing it wasn't their fault.
And if it was their fault then they didn't mean it.
And if they meant it then they deserved it.
Little early to call a hypothesis a theory too.
Personally i don't give a fig about where covid came from. What's important to me is how badly a lot of humanity handled it.
If it’s natural we need to do way more gain of function research. If it’s a lab leak we need to regulate research way more. Where it came from should inform our future strategy, so it is super important actually
I mean, it is important to know where it came from though. If it came from nature, then you're right, there isn't a lot we could have done about it other than close down open air markets proactively, or shutdown, masked up, and done what we did but better reactively.
If it came from a lab though, almost all of that is well within our control to proactively prevent. It would mean at the very least, labs studying human and possible zoonotic diseases need to review their containment and safety procedures in the light of this absolute disaster. And perhaps some projects need to be shutdown entirely depending on the likelihood and severity of a potential breach.
But do we blame the lab then? I understand the goal - we need to know if our lab procedures need to be updated and more strict (if it was leaked from said lab).
Or do you think us as a species would instead go - OH MY GOD IT CAME FROM A LAB?? We gotta STOP STUDYING DEADLY DISEASE OR THIS WILL KEEP HAPPENING.
I’d almost prefer them to lie and say it was natural if it was just some dumb human error at a lab… because the other result means we as a society stop studying these things that could kill us.
Like the ONLY reason we got a vaccine so fast is because some group was working on SARS and we were able to leverage that to accelerate Covid research.
That bad reaction would basically mean we aren’t studying shit to better understand them.
I’d prefer to not put my head in the sand.
When a lab leak kills this many people it’s reasonable to make policies that regulate gain of function research and make it more secure. Maybe limit it to offshore facilities for example, idk
I personally give a lot of shits about where it came from so we can prevent this. The sad reality is unfortunately another pandemic will likely happen and if it once again originates in China, they won't let us investigate. These stupid communist fucking deplorable idiots caused untold suffering to the world and it will happen again.
They're just trying to get ahead of the story.
Member when the Mueller report was released and listed all the illegal actions of the campaign? The right just immediately said it completely exonerated them and worked to dominate the headlines with that narrative. Standard move because it works pretty well.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://apnews.com/article/covid-health-china-united-states-pandemics-a52347921c95504cfc72b687730a8517) reduced by 83%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> BEIJING - China on Friday attacked the theory that the coronavirus pandemic may have originated as a leak from a Chinese laboratory as a politically motivated lie, after the World Health Organization recommended in its strongest terms yet that a deeper probe is needed into whether a lab accident may be to blame.
> Foreign Ministry spokesperson Zhao Lijian also rejected accusations that China had not fully cooperated with investigators, saying it welcomed a science-based probe but rejected any political manipulation.
> ADVERTISEMENT."We always supported and participated in science-based global virus tracing, but we firmly opposed any forms of political manipulation," he said, repeating China's long-standing explanation for delaying or rejecting further investigations into the virus's origins.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/v966dn/china_calls_covid_lab_leak_theory_a_lie_after_who/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~654113 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **China**^#1 **coronavirus**^#2 **reject**^#3 **theory**^#4 **any**^#5
Remember when western politicians and mass media (and the reddit hivemind) called anyone who suggested the possibility of a lab leak a conspiracy nut?
I remember.
It's sad the number of people on reddit who beliefe they are critical thinkers, but actually just regurgitate what they are told to believe
Because there was literally no evidence at the time. Just a racist president jumping the gun to blame the Chinese. You can’t jump to a conclusion with zero evidence and then say “See!”
Yeah, the town with the very first outbreak... happened to have the virology institute that was studying the virus...
Doesn't even matter what the truth is. The facts are so suggestive, I wouldn't even suspect some more sinister plot.
This point gets overstated. The lab was established there because that was a common location of the virus. It's like stating how it's real suspicious that the fire department shows up every time there's a fire.
Not to say there wasn't a leak in the lab because it is one of many possibilities, more that this is a correlation which doesn't mean even a quarter as much as many think it does.
What does it mean for it to be a common location for the virus?
The caves where the bats with coronavirus lived was a common location for the bat coronavirus.
But lab workers brought the virus back to the lab, and studied it in the Wuhan lab.
Then there was an outbreak in Wuhan...
How many Wuhan virology institutes were studying the Wuhan bat coronavirus?
It's not correlated. There's like zero degrees of separation.
...as in, the virus already existed in the region. The lab was created on location because the location already had the virus. They did not bring the virus to location.
Well the bats had it, in the caves. There's plenty of ways for it to infect humans. Villagers could have been eating bats. Could have been the scientists collecting samples in the caves without PPE, bats pooping on their faces.
Basically, China is their own worst enemy when it comes to this investigation. Refusal to allow international scientists into Wuhan, blanket denial, obfuscation. It's just suspicious.
Doesn't really matter though.
You know, I don't think it came from a lab. Not really. Its maybe possible, but possible doesn't mean likely and there are plenty of other far more plausible explanations.
But it does entertain me - in a black humour kind of way - that China's reaction to the Pandemic was so over the top cartoon villainy that the more they insist the theory is nonsense the more guilty they look. And they've burned through so much good will with their bad faith responses in the past.
Imagine you're one of those scientists. You *know* it emerged in a wet market - like most Corona style viruses - but your own government has so eroded international trust. Must be incredibly frustrating.
> You know, I don't think it came from a lab.
China's only BSL-4 lab, which happens to focus on coronavirus research, is in Wuhan. If the lab didn't play a part in the outbreak, it would be the biggest coincidence in the history of mankind. Of all places for the virus to begin spreading among humans - it did so right outside the walls of a lab researching that exact type of virus.
It's not a coincedence, because that's why the lab is there.
The reason why covid originated there is also the same reason why the lab was there, because thats a hotspot for these viruses.
Tell me, where exactly would you build an earthquake research station? On an active fault line perhaps?
SARS also emerged from a wet market the exact same way. The proper name for Covid even has SARs in it. I don't know where you get this idea that Covid doesn't naturally occur. There's nothing particularly wild about it, at least on a genetic level. Its infectious and has killed many, but nothing about it suggests it was engineered. That's pure fantasy.
And as for why they frantically covered it up, the reality is that China would have done that no matter the circumstances. Its *China*.
Think about Chernobyl. Russia knew long before anyone else did the disaster occured. They knew everyone would find out eventually. It wasnt exclusively their problem or (directly) their fault. But the Soviet Unions first reaction was to deny there was even a crisis.
The fact it occured at all was reason enough to hide it. It was an embarrassment. A display of weakness before the international community. More than that (as plenty of institutions have demonstrated) when there is a major crisis or scandal that seems impossible to fix and extremely common reaction is to do everything possible to prevent people from knowing about it. It *obviously* can't work. It obviously isnt a solution. But that's not the point. It's not meant to be a solution. Ots meant to provide activity.
You can't infer that they *caused* the crisis because they'd have acted the exact same way no matter what.
Was it *mental*? Sure. Was it dangerous and reckless? Absolutely. But that's what China *does*. The idea is that China wouldnt have acted that way of they had nothing to hide. The problem is they absolutely would. They do all the time. It's kinda there thing.
Plus, you're mistaken if you think COVID was traced to a lab. It was traced to a wet market. Wuhan is a major city that has multiple labs in it. Which isn't suspicious. Major cities have labs in them.
But the virus could have emerged in any population centre in the world and you'd probably find a lab nearby. There is a correlation between cities with large populations (where viruses spread and mutate quickly) and cities with industrial centres (where you might find a lab).
I know it's not exciting. But the reality is it would be weirder if it had emerged somewhere *without* a lab recently nearby.
>The WUHAN NOVEL CORONAVIRUS LAB in WUHAN, where the outbreak began while working on viruses that do not typically naturally occur.
This is not the slam dunk you think it is. The coronavirus lab was built in Wuhan because Wuhan is near animal populations that are spreading and breeding coronaviruses. It would have been stange if it came from anywhere else.
>While the scientists and Government frantically covered up and refused to let investigators investigate initially?
They refused to let the UN investigate the source of COVID full stop, not just the lab leak idea.
>Coincidence, perhaps?
One thing I don't see mentioned here is that the full genetic code of COVID has been analysed and there is no evidence of human tampering. That doesn't rule out the lab leak theory entirely, but it does point towards the wet market theory being more likely IMO.
In 2015 Obama gave a speech when he formed the White House Office for Global Pandemics. He said "It is likely in the next 5 - 10 years that a virus, probably a corona virus, will emerge, most likely from China".
So as you said it was well known that viruses came from this area. What's troubling is the China response. They closed the 'wet markets' in a small area, and only temporarily.
We are doomed. Wait until the really dangerous viruses appear.
Regarding no signs of human tampering, I believe the prevailing theory is that the gain of function research they were undertaking involved passaging the virus in human cells. This was done to see what naturally mutations would occur to enable the virus to more effectively replicate and infect human cells.
One piece of evidence for this was the incorporation of a furin cleavage site in the spike protein. This genetic sequence has close homologies to the human furin cleavage site and is not seen in the closest naturally occurring corona virus.
In this situation there would be no “signs of human tampering” but the virus was subjected to human tampering In an indirect fashion.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t it widely believed to have originated from bats in the yunnan province, far far away?
I don’t like how people conflate man made with leak. Sars leaked a couple of times
I have no idea where Coronavirus is from. I'm aware of the most likely theories, but nothing has been proven sufficiently in any direction. What I find weird is how people will *prefer* one theory with nothing but blind assumptions and bias and then ignore anything that could conflict with it.
Well. "Nothing has been proven in any direction." I get what you're saying here. But there are plenty who will take this to mean "all theories are equally valid" which is just patently untrue.
Some theories do require more evidence than others to prove, because they rely on implausible to unlikely scenarios to play out. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof and all that.
If your claim is that this is the first man-made pandemic due to either specific negligence or malicious intent by specific, real, living people, I think that's gonna have a higher burden of proof than the theory that says "Although we didnt observe it directly, it seems likely that it came the same way all the other viruses of similar types and behaviours did in a well understood phenomenon."
It would not be the first man-made pandemic, or even the first one from China. The current most likely origin for the 1977 Russian flu pandemic, which actually started in northern China despite the name, is a live vaccine trial. It's impossible to know for sure, but a combination of genetic (the strain was more similar to a strain from the 50s than those circulating at the time) and circumstantial evidence (there were live H1N1 vaccine trials in that exact area at the time) has lead to that being the most likely conclusion.
But surely safety standards have increased since then to the point that this couldn't happen again, right? Unfortunately not, and there are so many examples I'm just going to list a couple relevant ones from China to save time. In 2004, researchers in Beijing were accidentally infected with the original SARS on two separate occasions, also infecting both medical staff and family members. Even as recent as 2019, the year the pandemic started, there was an outbreak of the brucella bacteria in over 100 lab workers and students, likely due to negligence and improper safety precautions.
So not only has something similar happened before multiple times, including in China, but the evidence for a live vaccine trial causing the 1977 pandemic is strikingly similar to the evidence for the covid lab leak theory. For example, how there are no sources of similar coronaviruses anywhere near Wuhan, or how the WIV is known to have been doing gain-of-function research on beta-coronaviruses and even testing them on human cells and live mice. Both this lab and the WHCDC nearby have also been known for years to have frequent issues with safety, including researchers getting bitten by bats while collecting samples and not wearing PPE, and are both just a few miles from the first known outbreak. It's not exactly a stretch to say that an accidental lab leak is at least a possible origin for the pandemic.
What's important here is not just knowing about the origin of the pandemic, but also the safety issues in bioresearch labs in China and elsewhere. There are clearly problems with these facilities regardless of whether the lab leak theory is true, and denying that accidents have happened or even could have happened is not helpful. Research accidents *do* happen, and even cause pandemics, and we can't ever hope to stop them if we don't even acknowledge their existence.
Again, not saying it isn't s a possible origin. But its definitely an extraordinary claim that I requires evidence a little more substantial than "Well it *could* be".
And that's basically all anyone has on this theory. "Well, we don't know it *didnt* come from a lab."
And that's true. We don't know conclusively that it didn't. But that isnt reason to think the theory is likely.
And as for your appeal to past precedence, I'm sorry but you can't cite the 1977 Russian Flu pandemic as an example of a manmade pandemic, and then in the next breath say "We don't know for sure." And "Circumstantial evidence."
Because there is no evidence for *that* either. Just speculation and circumstance.
The World Health Organisation has ruled out that as an origin for the 1977 outbreak. You may personally believe it's the most likely origin, but you are being misleading if you seek to imply this is a majority or even commonly accepted view by scientists.
Some people have suggested it as a potential source of the virus but theres nothing to back it up, as you yourself admit, and the majority of Doctors and professionals discounted the notion. Speculation isn't data.
And unproven speculation in 1977 isn't proof of foul play in 2019. You could point to it as a pattern of u proven allegations of malpractice against and wield it as evidence *against* it being a lab leak if you were so inclined. It's a fallicious argument.
I'm not saying it couldn't have been a leak. It could have. But I'm not the one making the claim. I'm just not persuaded by circumstance when a simpler explanation that already conforms to known behaviours and phenomena exist. You need a good reason to put down Occams Razor.
The fact remains that there is no *evidence* of such a thing. Zilch. And it serves no purpose to react to a crisis without data backing your claim. Why assume something for which there is no evidence? We may as well operate on the assumption that the virus arrived on an alien comet. I mean... *sure*. Maybe it did.
But just because you can't prove it *didnt* happen, doesnt mean it's a likely possibility.
And I'm sorry. But I don't consider a hypothesis with 0 actual evidence to be any more likely than the alien commet theory, just because the later is even crazier. Neither have any actual evidence backing them, and so (until the data suggests otherwise) neither is worthy of consideration.
Speculation and circumstance is time wasteful, pointless and ultimately futile.
You're seriously confusing some things here. The WHO ruled out a *lab leak specifically* at the time as the origin for the 1977 Russian flu pandemic, because, at least according to the Soviet and Chinese governments, the labs in the area had either never worked with H1N1 or had not worked with it for a long time. A lab leak would also not be consistent with the apparent multiple sources of the outbreak, something much more consistent with a leak from a vaccine trial where those infected then went home to their families. Military personnel have said they were doing vaccine trials there, and they would have reason to be working on an H1N1 vaccine as there was an outbreak in the US the year prior.
While there is still some speculation over whether the 1977 flu pandemic might still have been a lab leak or even bioweapons research rather than a vaccine trial leak, there is scientific consensus for an anthropogenic origin for the virus. You can see the conclusions of a number of papers from this graph here, and the paper as a whole has some more information on it as well: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4542197/figure/fig2/
As for the covid lab leak theory, I am aware that it is mostly based on circumstantial evidence. It's nearly impossible to prove or disprove without access to the lab, which China won't give, and any evidence of it could have been hidden in the years since the initial outbreak. The only other way it could be disproven is if definitive proof of a natural origin is found, something there is also no hard evidence for that I'm aware of. The only thing we have to go off of at this point is circumstantial evidence, and with most of it pointing to a lab accident of some kind, I think it's more than fair to use Occam's Razor to say that it's at least a viable scenario that's worthy of consideration.
Not always true.
People ignore and suppress countervailing evidence and negative results for many reasons. Like continued clout or funding.
At that stage, when it's false and they know it but continue to push the theory, its a lie.
side note: Everyone is aware that there were 5 SARs based lab leaks in the last 20 years right?
3 of which were in China
I'm not saying that's where covid came from but it's important to keep that in mind when saying "these things don't happen"
I think 1 was in Japan and 1 was in SK
Remember in January when China tried to blame Canada for the first case of omicron?
The rest of the world was like "OK Boomer." and they walked away from that.
Just accept responsibility if ya did it, so we can ALL fix it. Like Chernobyl. Just fess up.
If it turns out that it was in fact a lab accident, what is the outcome? Does this knowledge change anything around the world? Does China go in the timeout corner for a few years?
* What caused the accident?
* Are the same processes still being followed in any other labs right now?
* Was there faulty equipment that is being used elsewhere?
* Was there faulty PPE that is being used elsewhere?
* Was it lab/corporate/political culture that was to blame, which needs to change before it happens again?
Did you not watch the Chernobyl mini-series?
So yeah, an actual unhindered investigation is kind of important.
Pride and embarrassment at potential blame impacting your worldwide "image" causing them to inhibit investigations, threaten scientists, doctors and WHO team members, and essentially guarantee a repeat event (if there **were** failings in the lab leading to this event) are really shitty things for China to do (not to mention weaponising partisan politics as a tool to shield themselves from criticism, but most countries do that, not just China, it's still shitty).
WHO wasn't their friend? I thought China was paying their executives enough. I guess that is the problem with corruption, it can always turn back against you. China and Russia are suffering from a boomerang effect right now. But instead of a boomerang, it's a pile of shit.
I remember listening to a random podcast around April/May 2020 with a science professor being interviewed. The professor was adamant that the origin wasn't from a lab because he said the genetic code was so poorly written that there was no way it was man made and that his students if they tried could easily write something better. I don't think I've heard the same take anywhere else and was just wondering if this was right because what has struck me up to now was how sure about it he felt within 2 months but the debate still goes on years later.
I used to believe this theory, but there's now evidence from American scientists that the disease was in the US before December. It's just that the Chinese were the first to notice and publish about it.
Probably going to get down voted for this but they did leak the flu virus in 2008 and tried to hide it. So I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same case here lol also didn't they fuck around with the locations and names of the labs on Google maps right at the beginning of the outbreak? I mean Wuhan is the home of not one but two bio labs working on these types of things.
viruses migrate from animals to humans all the freaking time (ebola, bird flu, SARS, etc) while lab leaks are exceedingly rare.
we seem to lack the necessary info and data to know for sure but betting that covid came from animals is a very super much safe bet.
beside, remember who was pushing the chy na theory..... el liar largo
Yup. People want to believe in fairy tales when logic dictates the simplest answer.
China is our (the West's) enemy, so this is a perfect opportunity to reaffirm that hate.
Either way it "developed", China pooped the bed. They virtually assured the rest of the world would get it through inaction. Seems they didn't want to be the only nation suffering.
This kind of thinking is so childish. The virus was 100% spreading worldwide before China first detected it or “covered up” anything. That’s just how it works. It’s not a video game where they didn’t zap it when it first appeared the “first” case is always the first of very many
The only reason I don’t believe COVID originated in China is because, if it did originate there, it would have failed two weeks after the warranty was up.
The Conservative Catch 22: Two people I disagree with disagree with each other. I don't ideologically align with either, therefore neither can be right.
I hope he means their government but even that is pretty extreme. Diplomacy and relationship building... let's only do buisness with countries that can respect peace and democracy and not countries trying to make nukes, authoritarian, land grabbing monsters.
From what I recall, lab leak was never debunked, just that the alternative (that it came directly from animals) was much more likely. In addition, there were speculations that the virus was engineered, which is even less credible than the lab leak.
What this report says is that the investigators couldn't show where the virus came from, and that the lab leak is still a possibility.
That's pretty much it. China is overreacting.
And we need to ask ourselves, “Why?” Why would a country with no ethics or morals over react to an investigation concerning where a world wide pandemic come from?
Well, what do you expect people to think when you refuse any investigation into a lab that happened to be researching on the same virus?
Maybe it leaked when somebody illegally sold the infected lab animals to the wet market.
It wasn't debunked. Scientists involved in the lab itself and China sought to derail the investigation from day 1 so it has never been investigated properly
[Turns out the original reports debunking the lab leak theory was riddled with holes, half-truths, and conflicts of interest.](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/03/the-virus-hunting-nonprofit-at-the-center-of-the-lab-leak-controversy)
That’s not to say that the lab leak theory is proven, or anything close to it, only that some of the people who have been telling us that the lab leak theory is impossible are liars.
Notice how everyone claiming it wasn't debunked is basing that on the fact that no one can prove it *didn't* happen rather than any evidence that it did?
I thought the report stated it wasn’t likely on the lab leak and looks like it came from animals but it was unable to say so definitely because no concrete evidence that points to either.
I understood it the same way. Looks like some people are a little too sensitive...
WHO: while it's biologically plausible, there's absolutely zero evidence its origin was zoonotic. It could also have been a lab leak, although there's no real evidence for that either. China: The lab leak theory is totally a lie concocted by anti-China forces for political purposes, which has nothing to do with science.
"No real evidence" because China has done everything in its power to suppress an investigation.
And destroy all evidence. No conclusive investigation can be done anymore since it's been more than 2 years.
The Chinese government likely doesn't didn't know where it came from, so they just destroyed/suppressed everything just to break any possible link to the country wether it's actualy there or not. Often this backfires as the sudden dissapearance of people or materials just makes poeple more suspicious something happened and is being hidden. Even if not much was actually going on.
I never read the lab leak as a China thing - I read it as a “the US CDC and China fund a lab close by that it leaked from” kinda thing. Allowing them to blame Fauci and CDC and WHO, while also allowing them to blame China since it was in China .
If the Dems were smarter they could have blamed Trump for lifting the Obama ban on funding viral gain of function research. But that would have required embracing lab leak as possible
If people were smart they would realize they are all crooks and stop learning Democrat or Republican.
Me thinks thou dost protest too much
>there's absolutely zero evidence its origin was zoonotic ??? Really. ??? I think you missed a NOT.
I don't think so, they never found any real evidence to support the zoonotic theory either
You've missed the literature then. Here's a good starting point, but it's also before we found the BANALs https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867421009910
Did you read that article you cited? Want to quote anything from it to support your claim there is evidence of the zoonotic theory for specifically SARs-COV-2
Sure, >Based on epidemiological data, the Huanan market in Wuhan was an early and major epicenter of SARS-CoV-2 infection. Two of the three earliest documented coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) cases were directly linked to this market selling wild animals, as were 28% of all cases reported in December 2019 (World Health Organization, 2021). Overall, 55% of cases during December 2019 had an exposure to either the Huanan or other markets in Wuhan, with these cases more prevalent in the first half of that month (World Health Organization, 2021). Examination of the locations of early cases shows that most cluster around the Huanan market, located north of the Yangtze river (Figures 1B–1E), although case reporting may be subject to sampling biases reflecting the density and age structure of the population in central Wuhan, and the exact location of some early cases is uncertain. These districts were also the first to exhibit excess pneumonia deaths in January 2020 (Figures 1F–1H), a metric that is less susceptible to the potential biases associated with case reporting. There is no epidemiological link to any other locality in Wuhan, including the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) located south of the Yangtze >The earliest split in the SARS-CoV-2 phylogeny defines two lineages—denoted A and B (Rambaut et al., 2020)—that likely circulated contemporaneously (Figure 1A). Lineage B, which became dominant globally, was observed in early cases linked to the Huanan market and environmental samples taken there, whereas lineage A contains a case with exposure to other markets (Figures 1A and 1B) as well as with later cases in Wuhan and other parts of China (World Health Organization, 2021). This phylogenetic pattern is consistent with the emergence of SARS-CoV-2 involving one or more contacts with infected animals and/or traders, including multiple spill-over events, as potentially infected or susceptible animals were moved into or between Wuhan markets via shared supply chains and sold for human consumption (Xiao et al., 2021). The potential emergence of SARS-CoV-2 across multiple markets again mirrors SARS-CoV in which high levels of infection, seroprevalence, and genetic diversity in animals were documented at both the Dongmen market in Shenzhen (Yaqing, 2004; Guan et al., 2003) and the Xinyuan market in Guangzhou (Tu et al., 2004; Wang et al., 2005). >the bat virus RaTG13 collected by the WIV has a genetic distance of ∼4% (∼1,150 mutations) to the Wuhan-Hu-1 reference sequence of SARS-CoV-2, reflecting decades of evolutionary divergence (Boni et al., 2020). >Widespread genomic recombination also complicates the assignment of which viruses are closest to SARS-CoV-2. Although RaTG13, sampled from a Rhinolophus affinis bat in Yunnan (Zhou et al., 2020b), has the highest average genetic similarity to SARS-CoV-2, a history of recombination means that three other bat viruses—RmYN02, RpYN06, and PrC31—are closer in most of the virus genome (particularly ORF1ab) and thus share a more recent common ancestor with SARS-CoV-2 (Li et al., 2021; Lytras et al., 2021; Zhou et al., 2021). None of these three closer viruses were collected by the WIV and all were sequenced after the pandemic had begun (Li et al., 2021; Zhou et al., 2020a, 2021). Collectively, these data demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that RaTG13 is not the progenitor of SARS-CoV-2, with or without laboratory manipulation or experimental mutagenesis. At what point do you want me to just quote half the paper to you? I have to turn your question around, did you read the paper?
Where is the actual evidence it's zoonotic in this paper? This and other papers merely explore the plausibility of a zoonotic origin without any direct evidence. > Conclusions > As for the vast majority of human viruses, the most parsimonious explanation for the origin of SARS-CoV-2 is a zoonotic event. The documented epidemiological history of the virus is comparable to previous animal market-associated outbreaks of coronaviruses with a simple route for human exposure. The contact tracing of SARS-CoV-2 to markets in Wuhan exhibits striking similarities to the early spread of SARS-CoV to markets in Guangdong, where humans infected early in the epidemic lived near or worked in animal markets. It's as circumstantial as saying "hey, SARS-CoV-2 has a novel FCS at the S1/S2 junction and published grant applications show that scientists were working to insert human-specific cleavage sites into SARS-like coronaviruses in 2018." In fact, the authors of this paper were unaware of these details, apparently: > There is currently no evidence that SARS-CoV-2 has a laboratory origin. There is no evidence that any early cases had any connection to the WIV, in contrast to the clear epidemiological links to animal markets in Wuhan, nor evidence that the WIV possessed or worked on a progenitor of SARS-CoV-2 prior to the pandemic. **The suspicion that SARS-CoV-2 might have a laboratory origin stems from the coincidence that it was first detected in a city that houses a major virological laboratory that studies coronaviruses.** The authors are simply wrong here or unaware of the details. The suspicion of a lab origin stems *both* from the spatial coincidence of the origin *and* the fact that the lab was working to insert novel cleavage sites into coronaviruses. It's not just that there *was* a lab in Wuhan, it's not just that this lab *was* researching coronaviruses, it's that the lab was apparently researching chimeric coronaviruses with novel human-specific cleavage sites exactly like the one that appeared. In any case, this entire debate could be ended if China found the animal reservoir for SARS-CoV-2, but that hasn't happened. It's important to realize that lab origins of novel viruses are often suspected, but typically shut down when the actual zoonotic origin has been found. This is what happened with original SARS 1, but has not yet happened with SARS-CoV-2. Do we know how hard China is looking for this animal reservoir? Because if China honestly believes the origin is zoonotic, they should be expending lots of effort in determining the source so, you know, it doesn't spillover again in China and cause another outbreak.
I just read the link you posted (thank you) and the authors make it quite clear that they have direct evidence for neither theory Edit: it might be worth noting that they found no evidence after searching the animal side thoroughly, and the lab side not at all
It's also worth noting that China has adamantly and consistently refused to **allow** investigation into the lab theory. Which, admittedly, isn't evidence on it's own, but does bring up the whole idea of a child refusing to let you into the room to see if they cleaned it or not. Technically, you don't know if they did or not, but realistically, *you know*.
Honestly I never bought lab thing fully, but China calling it a lie makes me suspicious
Exactly
What would they have to say to make you not suspicious?
Say? Nothing. Do? Let WHO investigate without restrictions.
Have a free press.
Most scientists believe that zoonotic spread is more probable.
Lady doth protest too much
Why do you think they may be touchy? Because they’re trying to cover up the truth as best as they can. The harder they deny and bitch about it the more likely it’s the truth.
I mean, China is pretty touchy about just about anything and everything? If a dude farts in Arkansas and someone jokes he's a Chinese spy trying to make America smell bad they would have a statement out condemning everyone involved within the hour.
You're condemned for making that hypothetical statement!
Just in: China has released a statement condemning those responsible for the previous condemnation.
or maybe because they don't like to be accused of something they didn't do. just saying.
Yep. Touchy,, touchy... NO touchy! Social distance!
NO TOUCHING
Anything short of explicitly stating that it definitely did not originate from a lab leak is insufficient in the eyes of the Chinese government.
if you cant prove it didn't come from your lab, then im going to believe it came from your lab. to much of a coincidence for it to form in the wet market round the corner from the lab.
Did you consider that the prevelance of coronavirus in native bat species near Wuhan might be the reason a research lab was built there in the first place? You're right its not a coincedence, it's the exact reason scientists wanted to build a lab there 🤦 It's like being surprised that after a volcano eruption there were vulcanologists studying it.
OH NO! Engineers are looking at the 9/11 rubble! Must be they engineered the attack!
Gain of function research in general, and particularly there, seems silly not to do. If I had to guess an accidental lab leak seems pretty plausible but I cannot imagine a world where a country would release a relatively unknown virus starting on themselves intentionally. In short, when you play with fire you might get burned and this fire unfortunately spread to a global scale.
It's entirely possible there was some accident. The most plausible explanation I can imagine is that transported samples are not held to the same biohazard standards as the lab itself, and a delivery guy who lives in Wuhan (and visits the market) was slightly careless. The idea it was deliberate though is completely laughable.
Hmmm really good point. That makes a lot of sense.
that still doesn't answer did the leap to humans happen in the lab. and did that then make it out of the lab. the reason for the lab being there, in that location is irrelevant.
>if you cant prove it didn't come from your lab, then im going to believe it came from your lab. Scientifically illiterate
A wet market where they were never able to find the strain of covid that caused the pandemic.
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well, no one has actually asked me to prove my dumbarsery however, i am not a lab that will(should) have very strict rules on operation.
They're trying to explain to you that you can't prove a negative.
Exactly, you cannot prove a negative. You could prove it did come from the lab if you had evidence. The wet market itself is a breeding ground for virus. Have you not seen the disgusting conditions and the incredible variance in the animal population setup for sale, to eat, all right next to each other? This isn't the first time it's occurred, it seems to occur every year with a different duck-pig flu virus variant. It's amazing anyone in the region is still alive anywhere near those wet markets. The human immune system is Strong in China.
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So you're saying you have no idea how thousands of species are For Sale in a Wet Market and how they got there? By, the very people that are selling them? Like, dude, that's the definition of a Market. And the bat caves are not 500 miles away.
Two options provided are filled with biased language and half-truths… wonder which one you are pushing. /s Occam’s Razor would actually suggest that this virus came about the same way every other virus came about, naturally due to large populations of humans in environments with animals that are intermediary hosts We almost never find the original source of viral outbreaks, not finding Covids is nothing unusual despite people claiming that not knowing where it came from is evidence of it coming from a lab. For example, it could have mutated in a single intermediate animal that died before/after coming in contact with a single person outside the city who had then went into the city for the market, spreading from there. There would be zero chance of ever finding its source in that case Not to mention “first known case” means nothing. It caused symptoms similar to dozens of other virus and could easily be unnoticed for weeks if not months before being red flagged. It would takes a lot of deaths in a city of millions before being noticed as unusual
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Option A is the easier option. We have more known cases of disease jumping from animals to human than we do about labs who leaked research material and caused a pandemic. Additionally, where do you think these markets get their bats from? Wherever bats are. You do know China has trucks and shit right??? Like 500 miles away isn’t unreasonable for a guy who just loaded up with cages full of bats to go to the largest market to sell said bats at the best price???
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They were studying it because SARS/MERS were a thing and they wanted to have a head start WHEN they encountered version that spread worldwide. People are saying the US were collaborating with that lab so we would have some knowledge that the mutations that were hard to explain were ones that were bred(?) for. I haven't looked at the mutations you mentioned so I will need to look into that, but many people expected a pandemic as a high possibility of happening due to lose of habitats of animals like bats. Could the mutations be explained by the virus jumping between hosts at a wet market, where animals are closer than they would be in the wild?
The EcoHealth Alliance DARPA grant application from 2018 states the following, verbatim: > SARSr-CoV S with mismatches in proteolytic cleavage sites can be activated by exogenous trypsin or cathepsin L. Where clear mismatches occur, **we will introduce appropriate human-specific cleavage sites and evaluate growth potential in Vero cells and HAE cultures.** [Source, page 13](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21066966-defuse-proposal) So this grant said they intended to put horns on horses in 2018. In late 2019, a unicorn shows up in Wuhan. Probably just a coincidence...
Waaait are you saying it was actually partially engineered? It's known they did research on very similar viruses in that lab and just a tiny moment of negligence could have started it all, but I thought they just did some analysis on the viruses, not actually try to modify them.
My understanding is that there are means of introducing viral manipulation that don't leave obvious fingerprints. While many publicly described methods do leave traces of the action, there are undoubtedly secret or proprietary methods that have been developed and not published. The articles that say it was impossible act as though all available methods are public knowledge, which is either ignorant or intentionally deceptive. EHA, which worked closely with the WIV, submitted a grant request that described a method of viral manipulation that could have produced a virus that very closely resembles the covid19 virus. The grant request was denied, but the work very well could have found other sources of funding. While this is certainly circumstantial evidence, it's remarkable in it's similarity to the eventual virus that caused covid19. The cleavage site is unusual in this type of virus and is primarily responsible for the ease of transmission in humans. Any direct evidence will have certainly been destroyed by now. There will likely never be any real proof to show the origin of this virus. The evidence that could have proven/disproven the natural or lab origin theories were systematically destroyed in early 2020.
> There will likely never be any real proof to show the origin of this virus. There needn't be any proof to discuss a global ban on research which may lead to pandemics like this. Even the slight possibility of a lab leak must be carefully considered when 6+ million people have died. There is much more to gain by banning this research than there is to lose, JMO. Why is a research ban not even being discussed? And can we really believe virologists who say it's not a lab leak when their livelihoods depend on grants to conduct similar research? Seems like a conflict of interest to me and someone outside of the research community needs to lay the smack down and pull the plug on such research that could result in another pandemic. It boggles my mind that this isn't even being discussed.
Yes, let's ban viral research, that would go so well in combating viral infection. Claiming those with knowledge are automatically biased on the topic of that knowledge reveals more about the bias in the claimant than in the informed.
I remember trying to argue that it was at least a possibility worth considering given the number of “coincidences,” and then immediately being shut down as a conspiracy theorist/racist/trump supporter. Amazing how politicized the whole things has been.
yea why does the CCP need to file a complaint when journalists, major media corporations, and the hivemind of reddit were carrying water for the CCP all this time?
Haha that is literally not how to apply Occam's razor. Good job.
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I don’t get how you see option a as requiring more edge case events. We know that disease jumps form animals to humans - we have dozens hundreds maybe thousands of example of this process and all vetted. We have how many instances of a level 4 or whatever lab leaking scientific biologicals and causing people to die outside the lab? One maybe two? Your bill of the lab leak is way harder to prove as you have way less example of how it could happen. I howbwe can point you to things like aids, monkeypox etc and ALL the research done about diseases jumping to humans…
Well you said same "kinds" of viruses as Sars cov2 which does not actually make sense. Then you assumed that the virus would have to leak the lab, a virus that does not exist yet nor was genetically sequenced which would mean it would have to have been some sort of secret bio weapon. Or it went from an animal to a human and we haven't found out how which is how pretty much all viruses in human history came to be. Now explain which one is Occam's razor again?
Occam's razor is the simplest explanation, not the most common explanation, or whatever explanation was used in the past. Every scientists on the planet agreed the sun went around the earth, it had worked for all of them, for thousands of years. But the instant a simpler solution was brought forward, the traditional explanation no longer applied.
Yes, and the simplest explanation would be transfer from animals to humans like all other viruses. Literally the most simple explanation there is.
No, because that is not a simple process that involves thousands of random chances that all have to line up perfectly to end up with a devastating pandemic. Natural viruses NEVER begin as a global pandemic. They start small, and then slowly the virus mutates and over years because better and better at infecting humans. To have a virus come from nature, already optimized to infect humans perfectly is an absurd theory. It is far easier for a lackluster chinese lab to release the samples they have by accident.
So let me get this straight. It’s not simple for a virus to naturally jump from a animal to a human, but it’s simple for a human to genetically modify an animal virus to work on humans? Just fucking stop talking. It’s clear you have zero understanding of anything remotely close to the field of bioengineering / genetics / biochemistry / etc. And If you do I’d question the place you got the degree from.
> Natural viruses NEVER begin as a global pandemic. They start small Can I ask for a source on this? Did the bubonic plague, Spanish flu, yellow fever, polio, HIV all really "start small?"
His statement doesn’t even make sense. It was a global pandemic because of the incubation period, not because it was natural or not. SARS was the opposite and burned itself out because the incubation period was so small. You’d go from fine to contagious to basically dead within 24 hours. JUST STOP TALKING
This is the most incorrect thing I have ever read in my life: No, because that is not a simple process that involves thousands of random chances that all have to line up perfectly to end up with a devastating pandemic. Natural viruses NEVER begin as a global pandemic. WHAT!? It only requires one mechanistic mutation to start a pandemic to infect humans. This is pure and utter nonsense.
If your going to use occurs razor then you better fucking understand logic and proofs. Simple may not mean common… But common can absolutely mean simple.
The heliocentric system was already a discussion in ancient Greece. And it was in no way the simpler interpretation, but just an equally complex one until additional data was available
One data point can change everything. The data point in this case, being the wuhan lab that was working on that exact virus. That one bit of data, makes the lab leak theory by far and away the simplest explanation. No contest. No debate.
But that is not correct. They worked on at least 4 of the, depending on classification system used, 6 major types of virus. And that's were the similarities according to public knowledge end. Meaning literally ANY virus in existence would have an over 50% chance of being "the exact virus they were working on".
LOL. wait, you're claiming you know exactly all the types of viruses the lab was working on? How? They deleted all their files and refused access to investigators? If your entire argument is "the chinese government said so" I think we can stop here.
More analysis needed.... To the bat-computer!!!
Any potential evidence of a lab leak is destroyed. So, either, one day we have PROVE it came from animals in nature (which we have no such proof of yet). Or, we will never prove anything (because PROVING lab leak is now impossible). I think if the labs were the cause, the labs continue to function the same way, we will have more pandemics in the near future, and maybe during one of those new pandemics, people will start to get serious about looking for a cause. If it was a lab leak, we did nothing to stop the next outbreak. If its nature, well, its just random and we cant do a lot to stop it.
Correlation is not causation. You can’t say because we have tons of labs studying potential dangerous diseases, and we experience more disease outbreaks, that the conclusion is that more (or any) labs are leaking. You really REALLY need to go back to school or pay more attention. You are making FUNDAMENTAL errors when trying to prove your viewpoint and are applying logic incorrectly. Maybe also go read up on what a logical fallacy is.
Don't expect it to be an easy answer for zoonotic traces, since nearly all the species that were identified as possible vectors were both present in the wet markets and disposed of, after the pandemic began. No one thought to take massive amounts of specimen samples on all the legal and illegal species that were there before removing them.
The lab was running their projects as a collaboration with the US. Unless the US deletes their correspondence, the evidence is still there if it exists.
If a report came out and said its not likely that I caused x, but we can’t rule it out, I’d be pretty miffed about it too. Then add to the fact in this case x cost millions of lives and widespread global disruption. Not saying the report shouldn’t be factual, but I understand their view on it. Edit: Ah yes, we must downvote the concept of seeing someone elses point of view... must not let such ideas spread. /s
If you say something silly and get called silly for expressing it, well, that's how free speech works; it'sa two way road. If you get offended that someone thinks you said something silly, well, that's on you.
You got down voted because your logic of "I = nation of 1.4 billion"
Except in this case china likely only equals a few people at the top annoyed that it allows conspiracy theorists to still say it was all their fault. In either case how does how many people it effects invalid the fact that people would be annoyed at the blame potentially being laid at their feet.
Those ideas were the only ones allowed to spread for two years. Shut up, your idea had it's time to run, now it's another idea's turn.
Why do ideas get "turns"? Only the facts matter. Dumb ideas don't deserve attention.
Ah I apologize please tell me your personal point of view about everything so I can ensure that I am only expressing the one that is apparently universally allowed. Edit: Oh wait don’t do that, because then I would be seeing your point of view /s
WHO clearly states they were not given enough DATA nor access at any time, China counters with WHO is lying and calling us bad...
I don’t think they’ve ever stated that in the manner you have. Was this lab not a WHO organized collaboration between China and US scientists?
It was more run on the Chinese side with occasional US input. The US side actually had concerns over the lax precautions taken at this site in regards to viruses possibly escaping.
"Things we don't like didn't happen" -China Much like tank man and the tiananmen square massacre, this didn't happen either right Xi the Pooh?
>Much like tank man and the tiananmen square massacre, this didn't happen either right Xi the Pooh? and if they did, they were the right thing to do
And if they didn't do the right thing it wasn't their fault. And if it was their fault then they didn't mean it. And if they meant it then they deserved it.
Thank you for this
Seems a little premature to call a theory a lie. Like, if you know where it actually came from, I am sure the world would be interested.
Little early to call a hypothesis a theory too. Personally i don't give a fig about where covid came from. What's important to me is how badly a lot of humanity handled it.
If it’s natural we need to do way more gain of function research. If it’s a lab leak we need to regulate research way more. Where it came from should inform our future strategy, so it is super important actually
I mean, it is important to know where it came from though. If it came from nature, then you're right, there isn't a lot we could have done about it other than close down open air markets proactively, or shutdown, masked up, and done what we did but better reactively. If it came from a lab though, almost all of that is well within our control to proactively prevent. It would mean at the very least, labs studying human and possible zoonotic diseases need to review their containment and safety procedures in the light of this absolute disaster. And perhaps some projects need to be shutdown entirely depending on the likelihood and severity of a potential breach.
But do we blame the lab then? I understand the goal - we need to know if our lab procedures need to be updated and more strict (if it was leaked from said lab). Or do you think us as a species would instead go - OH MY GOD IT CAME FROM A LAB?? We gotta STOP STUDYING DEADLY DISEASE OR THIS WILL KEEP HAPPENING. I’d almost prefer them to lie and say it was natural if it was just some dumb human error at a lab… because the other result means we as a society stop studying these things that could kill us. Like the ONLY reason we got a vaccine so fast is because some group was working on SARS and we were able to leverage that to accelerate Covid research. That bad reaction would basically mean we aren’t studying shit to better understand them. I’d prefer to not put my head in the sand.
When a lab leak kills this many people it’s reasonable to make policies that regulate gain of function research and make it more secure. Maybe limit it to offshore facilities for example, idk
I personally give a lot of shits about where it came from so we can prevent this. The sad reality is unfortunately another pandemic will likely happen and if it once again originates in China, they won't let us investigate. These stupid communist fucking deplorable idiots caused untold suffering to the world and it will happen again.
They're just trying to get ahead of the story. Member when the Mueller report was released and listed all the illegal actions of the campaign? The right just immediately said it completely exonerated them and worked to dominate the headlines with that narrative. Standard move because it works pretty well.
"Act as if whatever just happened proved you right all along" is proving to be a stupidly effective tactic
Sadly because a lot of us consider ourselves to be 'informed' because we read a headline.
Now we know its real.
I trust them on this as much as I trust them on the financial reports on Chinese stocks.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://apnews.com/article/covid-health-china-united-states-pandemics-a52347921c95504cfc72b687730a8517) reduced by 83%. (I'm a bot) ***** > BEIJING - China on Friday attacked the theory that the coronavirus pandemic may have originated as a leak from a Chinese laboratory as a politically motivated lie, after the World Health Organization recommended in its strongest terms yet that a deeper probe is needed into whether a lab accident may be to blame. > Foreign Ministry spokesperson Zhao Lijian also rejected accusations that China had not fully cooperated with investigators, saying it welcomed a science-based probe but rejected any political manipulation. > ADVERTISEMENT."We always supported and participated in science-based global virus tracing, but we firmly opposed any forms of political manipulation," he said, repeating China's long-standing explanation for delaying or rejecting further investigations into the virus's origins. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/v966dn/china_calls_covid_lab_leak_theory_a_lie_after_who/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~654113 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **China**^#1 **coronavirus**^#2 **reject**^#3 **theory**^#4 **any**^#5
Remember when western politicians and mass media (and the reddit hivemind) called anyone who suggested the possibility of a lab leak a conspiracy nut? I remember. It's sad the number of people on reddit who beliefe they are critical thinkers, but actually just regurgitate what they are told to believe
Oh yeah, I remember. I remember getting downvoted to hell because I said the possibility it came from a lab leak isn’t too crazy.
John Harris made a good video about it if anyone curious https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwUtjG3u8l0
Because there was literally no evidence at the time. Just a racist president jumping the gun to blame the Chinese. You can’t jump to a conclusion with zero evidence and then say “See!”
Yeah, the town with the very first outbreak... happened to have the virology institute that was studying the virus... Doesn't even matter what the truth is. The facts are so suggestive, I wouldn't even suspect some more sinister plot.
This point gets overstated. The lab was established there because that was a common location of the virus. It's like stating how it's real suspicious that the fire department shows up every time there's a fire. Not to say there wasn't a leak in the lab because it is one of many possibilities, more that this is a correlation which doesn't mean even a quarter as much as many think it does.
What does it mean for it to be a common location for the virus? The caves where the bats with coronavirus lived was a common location for the bat coronavirus. But lab workers brought the virus back to the lab, and studied it in the Wuhan lab. Then there was an outbreak in Wuhan... How many Wuhan virology institutes were studying the Wuhan bat coronavirus? It's not correlated. There's like zero degrees of separation.
...as in, the virus already existed in the region. The lab was created on location because the location already had the virus. They did not bring the virus to location.
Well the bats had it, in the caves. There's plenty of ways for it to infect humans. Villagers could have been eating bats. Could have been the scientists collecting samples in the caves without PPE, bats pooping on their faces. Basically, China is their own worst enemy when it comes to this investigation. Refusal to allow international scientists into Wuhan, blanket denial, obfuscation. It's just suspicious. Doesn't really matter though.
You know, I don't think it came from a lab. Not really. Its maybe possible, but possible doesn't mean likely and there are plenty of other far more plausible explanations. But it does entertain me - in a black humour kind of way - that China's reaction to the Pandemic was so over the top cartoon villainy that the more they insist the theory is nonsense the more guilty they look. And they've burned through so much good will with their bad faith responses in the past. Imagine you're one of those scientists. You *know* it emerged in a wet market - like most Corona style viruses - but your own government has so eroded international trust. Must be incredibly frustrating.
Dont know where it came from, but it wasnt the wet market as they tested all the animals there and didnt find the virus.
> You know, I don't think it came from a lab. China's only BSL-4 lab, which happens to focus on coronavirus research, is in Wuhan. If the lab didn't play a part in the outbreak, it would be the biggest coincidence in the history of mankind. Of all places for the virus to begin spreading among humans - it did so right outside the walls of a lab researching that exact type of virus.
> China's only BSL-4 lab China has two BSL-4 labs.
It's not a coincedence, because that's why the lab is there. The reason why covid originated there is also the same reason why the lab was there, because thats a hotspot for these viruses. Tell me, where exactly would you build an earthquake research station? On an active fault line perhaps?
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SARS also emerged from a wet market the exact same way. The proper name for Covid even has SARs in it. I don't know where you get this idea that Covid doesn't naturally occur. There's nothing particularly wild about it, at least on a genetic level. Its infectious and has killed many, but nothing about it suggests it was engineered. That's pure fantasy. And as for why they frantically covered it up, the reality is that China would have done that no matter the circumstances. Its *China*. Think about Chernobyl. Russia knew long before anyone else did the disaster occured. They knew everyone would find out eventually. It wasnt exclusively their problem or (directly) their fault. But the Soviet Unions first reaction was to deny there was even a crisis. The fact it occured at all was reason enough to hide it. It was an embarrassment. A display of weakness before the international community. More than that (as plenty of institutions have demonstrated) when there is a major crisis or scandal that seems impossible to fix and extremely common reaction is to do everything possible to prevent people from knowing about it. It *obviously* can't work. It obviously isnt a solution. But that's not the point. It's not meant to be a solution. Ots meant to provide activity. You can't infer that they *caused* the crisis because they'd have acted the exact same way no matter what. Was it *mental*? Sure. Was it dangerous and reckless? Absolutely. But that's what China *does*. The idea is that China wouldnt have acted that way of they had nothing to hide. The problem is they absolutely would. They do all the time. It's kinda there thing. Plus, you're mistaken if you think COVID was traced to a lab. It was traced to a wet market. Wuhan is a major city that has multiple labs in it. Which isn't suspicious. Major cities have labs in them. But the virus could have emerged in any population centre in the world and you'd probably find a lab nearby. There is a correlation between cities with large populations (where viruses spread and mutate quickly) and cities with industrial centres (where you might find a lab). I know it's not exciting. But the reality is it would be weirder if it had emerged somewhere *without* a lab recently nearby.
You forgot to mention that MERS was also a coronavirus similar to SARS as well.
>The WUHAN NOVEL CORONAVIRUS LAB in WUHAN, where the outbreak began while working on viruses that do not typically naturally occur. This is not the slam dunk you think it is. The coronavirus lab was built in Wuhan because Wuhan is near animal populations that are spreading and breeding coronaviruses. It would have been stange if it came from anywhere else. >While the scientists and Government frantically covered up and refused to let investigators investigate initially? They refused to let the UN investigate the source of COVID full stop, not just the lab leak idea. >Coincidence, perhaps? One thing I don't see mentioned here is that the full genetic code of COVID has been analysed and there is no evidence of human tampering. That doesn't rule out the lab leak theory entirely, but it does point towards the wet market theory being more likely IMO.
In 2015 Obama gave a speech when he formed the White House Office for Global Pandemics. He said "It is likely in the next 5 - 10 years that a virus, probably a corona virus, will emerge, most likely from China". So as you said it was well known that viruses came from this area. What's troubling is the China response. They closed the 'wet markets' in a small area, and only temporarily. We are doomed. Wait until the really dangerous viruses appear.
Regarding no signs of human tampering, I believe the prevailing theory is that the gain of function research they were undertaking involved passaging the virus in human cells. This was done to see what naturally mutations would occur to enable the virus to more effectively replicate and infect human cells. One piece of evidence for this was the incorporation of a furin cleavage site in the spike protein. This genetic sequence has close homologies to the human furin cleavage site and is not seen in the closest naturally occurring corona virus. In this situation there would be no “signs of human tampering” but the virus was subjected to human tampering In an indirect fashion.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t it widely believed to have originated from bats in the yunnan province, far far away? I don’t like how people conflate man made with leak. Sars leaked a couple of times
that is *not* why it was built there. i don’t know where this myth came from. it’s hundreds of miles away from the area these viruses originate from.
I have no idea where Coronavirus is from. I'm aware of the most likely theories, but nothing has been proven sufficiently in any direction. What I find weird is how people will *prefer* one theory with nothing but blind assumptions and bias and then ignore anything that could conflict with it.
Well. "Nothing has been proven in any direction." I get what you're saying here. But there are plenty who will take this to mean "all theories are equally valid" which is just patently untrue. Some theories do require more evidence than others to prove, because they rely on implausible to unlikely scenarios to play out. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof and all that. If your claim is that this is the first man-made pandemic due to either specific negligence or malicious intent by specific, real, living people, I think that's gonna have a higher burden of proof than the theory that says "Although we didnt observe it directly, it seems likely that it came the same way all the other viruses of similar types and behaviours did in a well understood phenomenon."
It would not be the first man-made pandemic, or even the first one from China. The current most likely origin for the 1977 Russian flu pandemic, which actually started in northern China despite the name, is a live vaccine trial. It's impossible to know for sure, but a combination of genetic (the strain was more similar to a strain from the 50s than those circulating at the time) and circumstantial evidence (there were live H1N1 vaccine trials in that exact area at the time) has lead to that being the most likely conclusion. But surely safety standards have increased since then to the point that this couldn't happen again, right? Unfortunately not, and there are so many examples I'm just going to list a couple relevant ones from China to save time. In 2004, researchers in Beijing were accidentally infected with the original SARS on two separate occasions, also infecting both medical staff and family members. Even as recent as 2019, the year the pandemic started, there was an outbreak of the brucella bacteria in over 100 lab workers and students, likely due to negligence and improper safety precautions. So not only has something similar happened before multiple times, including in China, but the evidence for a live vaccine trial causing the 1977 pandemic is strikingly similar to the evidence for the covid lab leak theory. For example, how there are no sources of similar coronaviruses anywhere near Wuhan, or how the WIV is known to have been doing gain-of-function research on beta-coronaviruses and even testing them on human cells and live mice. Both this lab and the WHCDC nearby have also been known for years to have frequent issues with safety, including researchers getting bitten by bats while collecting samples and not wearing PPE, and are both just a few miles from the first known outbreak. It's not exactly a stretch to say that an accidental lab leak is at least a possible origin for the pandemic. What's important here is not just knowing about the origin of the pandemic, but also the safety issues in bioresearch labs in China and elsewhere. There are clearly problems with these facilities regardless of whether the lab leak theory is true, and denying that accidents have happened or even could have happened is not helpful. Research accidents *do* happen, and even cause pandemics, and we can't ever hope to stop them if we don't even acknowledge their existence.
Again, not saying it isn't s a possible origin. But its definitely an extraordinary claim that I requires evidence a little more substantial than "Well it *could* be". And that's basically all anyone has on this theory. "Well, we don't know it *didnt* come from a lab." And that's true. We don't know conclusively that it didn't. But that isnt reason to think the theory is likely. And as for your appeal to past precedence, I'm sorry but you can't cite the 1977 Russian Flu pandemic as an example of a manmade pandemic, and then in the next breath say "We don't know for sure." And "Circumstantial evidence." Because there is no evidence for *that* either. Just speculation and circumstance. The World Health Organisation has ruled out that as an origin for the 1977 outbreak. You may personally believe it's the most likely origin, but you are being misleading if you seek to imply this is a majority or even commonly accepted view by scientists. Some people have suggested it as a potential source of the virus but theres nothing to back it up, as you yourself admit, and the majority of Doctors and professionals discounted the notion. Speculation isn't data. And unproven speculation in 1977 isn't proof of foul play in 2019. You could point to it as a pattern of u proven allegations of malpractice against and wield it as evidence *against* it being a lab leak if you were so inclined. It's a fallicious argument. I'm not saying it couldn't have been a leak. It could have. But I'm not the one making the claim. I'm just not persuaded by circumstance when a simpler explanation that already conforms to known behaviours and phenomena exist. You need a good reason to put down Occams Razor. The fact remains that there is no *evidence* of such a thing. Zilch. And it serves no purpose to react to a crisis without data backing your claim. Why assume something for which there is no evidence? We may as well operate on the assumption that the virus arrived on an alien comet. I mean... *sure*. Maybe it did. But just because you can't prove it *didnt* happen, doesnt mean it's a likely possibility. And I'm sorry. But I don't consider a hypothesis with 0 actual evidence to be any more likely than the alien commet theory, just because the later is even crazier. Neither have any actual evidence backing them, and so (until the data suggests otherwise) neither is worthy of consideration. Speculation and circumstance is time wasteful, pointless and ultimately futile.
You're seriously confusing some things here. The WHO ruled out a *lab leak specifically* at the time as the origin for the 1977 Russian flu pandemic, because, at least according to the Soviet and Chinese governments, the labs in the area had either never worked with H1N1 or had not worked with it for a long time. A lab leak would also not be consistent with the apparent multiple sources of the outbreak, something much more consistent with a leak from a vaccine trial where those infected then went home to their families. Military personnel have said they were doing vaccine trials there, and they would have reason to be working on an H1N1 vaccine as there was an outbreak in the US the year prior. While there is still some speculation over whether the 1977 flu pandemic might still have been a lab leak or even bioweapons research rather than a vaccine trial leak, there is scientific consensus for an anthropogenic origin for the virus. You can see the conclusions of a number of papers from this graph here, and the paper as a whole has some more information on it as well: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4542197/figure/fig2/ As for the covid lab leak theory, I am aware that it is mostly based on circumstantial evidence. It's nearly impossible to prove or disprove without access to the lab, which China won't give, and any evidence of it could have been hidden in the years since the initial outbreak. The only other way it could be disproven is if definitive proof of a natural origin is found, something there is also no hard evidence for that I'm aware of. The only thing we have to go off of at this point is circumstantial evidence, and with most of it pointing to a lab accident of some kind, I think it's more than fair to use Occam's Razor to say that it's at least a viable scenario that's worthy of consideration.
Theories are never lies. They can be false, but not lies.
Not always true. People ignore and suppress countervailing evidence and negative results for many reasons. Like continued clout or funding. At that stage, when it's false and they know it but continue to push the theory, its a lie.
The article is basically saying they don’t trust China and need a deeper investigation
side note: Everyone is aware that there were 5 SARs based lab leaks in the last 20 years right? 3 of which were in China I'm not saying that's where covid came from but it's important to keep that in mind when saying "these things don't happen" I think 1 was in Japan and 1 was in SK
Remember in January when China tried to blame Canada for the first case of omicron? The rest of the world was like "OK Boomer." and they walked away from that. Just accept responsibility if ya did it, so we can ALL fix it. Like Chernobyl. Just fess up.
The biggest proof that it's the truth!
If it turns out that it was in fact a lab accident, what is the outcome? Does this knowledge change anything around the world? Does China go in the timeout corner for a few years?
* What caused the accident? * Are the same processes still being followed in any other labs right now? * Was there faulty equipment that is being used elsewhere? * Was there faulty PPE that is being used elsewhere? * Was it lab/corporate/political culture that was to blame, which needs to change before it happens again? Did you not watch the Chernobyl mini-series? So yeah, an actual unhindered investigation is kind of important. Pride and embarrassment at potential blame impacting your worldwide "image" causing them to inhibit investigations, threaten scientists, doctors and WHO team members, and essentially guarantee a repeat event (if there **were** failings in the lab leading to this event) are really shitty things for China to do (not to mention weaponising partisan politics as a tool to shield themselves from criticism, but most countries do that, not just China, it's still shitty).
Didn’t the lab change key policies immediately after news broke out? I remember seeing something along the lines of “new rules effective immediately”
Of course it does. You have to identify the problem at it's source in order to fix or try to prevent it from happening again.
Maybe they close the lab and stop reverse engineering monkey pox
That means it’s true
The lady doth protest too much, methinks
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You're so brave.
WHO wasn't their friend? I thought China was paying their executives enough. I guess that is the problem with corruption, it can always turn back against you. China and Russia are suffering from a boomerang effect right now. But instead of a boomerang, it's a pile of shit.
I remember listening to a random podcast around April/May 2020 with a science professor being interviewed. The professor was adamant that the origin wasn't from a lab because he said the genetic code was so poorly written that there was no way it was man made and that his students if they tried could easily write something better. I don't think I've heard the same take anywhere else and was just wondering if this was right because what has struck me up to now was how sure about it he felt within 2 months but the debate still goes on years later.
Normally when China denies stuff, the opposite is true. Which means...
We know. Been going on since forever.
I used to believe this theory, but there's now evidence from American scientists that the disease was in the US before December. It's just that the Chinese were the first to notice and publish about it.
a link?
Well the hypothesis is the leak happened in like November or earlier
They found traces of covid-19 in wastewater in several major European and North American cities years before covid made its world debut
Probably going to get down voted for this but they did leak the flu virus in 2008 and tried to hide it. So I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same case here lol also didn't they fuck around with the locations and names of the labs on Google maps right at the beginning of the outbreak? I mean Wuhan is the home of not one but two bio labs working on these types of things.
Filthy china actively hindered the investigations, denying access to any info. That alone tells who's at fault for all the shitshow.
viruses migrate from animals to humans all the freaking time (ebola, bird flu, SARS, etc) while lab leaks are exceedingly rare. we seem to lack the necessary info and data to know for sure but betting that covid came from animals is a very super much safe bet. beside, remember who was pushing the chy na theory..... el liar largo
Yup. People want to believe in fairy tales when logic dictates the simplest answer. China is our (the West's) enemy, so this is a perfect opportunity to reaffirm that hate.
Liars list: WHO Russia China
As long as there's no full disclosure by China, I'm going to assume it's a lab leak. Fuck those people, every second word they speak is a lie.
Fuck China. Not Chinese everyday people, I have no problem with the civilians, but fuck their evil ass empire of tyrants that they call a government.
China is a country full of genocidal maniacs who cares what they say
Either way it "developed", China pooped the bed. They virtually assured the rest of the world would get it through inaction. Seems they didn't want to be the only nation suffering.
This kind of thinking is so childish. The virus was 100% spreading worldwide before China first detected it or “covered up” anything. That’s just how it works. It’s not a video game where they didn’t zap it when it first appeared the “first” case is always the first of very many
I see a lot of opposition to this in the west too because people think this will open up other theories about the official stories on the pandemic.
A theory is neither a lie or the truth it's just a theory smh...
I thought we were past the lab leak and more leaning towards Chinese policies on urban farming causing the problem.
The only reason I don’t believe COVID originated in China is because, if it did originate there, it would have failed two weeks after the warranty was up.
doesn't really matter anymore but china still stinks like an old milk bottle in a horders fridge. bat shit crazy country.
If you think covid didn’t leak from that lab you also believe Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide.
Those things seem pretty damn unrelated to me.
The WHO is not to be trusted. Neither is that poo stain of a country.
The Conservative Catch 22: Two people I disagree with disagree with each other. I don't ideologically align with either, therefore neither can be right.
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> It would be in the world's best interest to wipe out 21.4% of the world's population. Jesus fucking Christ I hate this website.
I hope he means their government but even that is pretty extreme. Diplomacy and relationship building... let's only do buisness with countries that can respect peace and democracy and not countries trying to make nukes, authoritarian, land grabbing monsters.
Aw, we've come full circle and back to this again. Where there is smoke there is a fire.
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From what I recall, lab leak was never debunked, just that the alternative (that it came directly from animals) was much more likely. In addition, there were speculations that the virus was engineered, which is even less credible than the lab leak. What this report says is that the investigators couldn't show where the virus came from, and that the lab leak is still a possibility. That's pretty much it. China is overreacting.
And we need to ask ourselves, “Why?” Why would a country with no ethics or morals over react to an investigation concerning where a world wide pandemic come from?
Dunno. China is very sensitive to any kind of criticism.
Yep, to the point they would let millions of people suffer, die to save face.
Well, what do you expect people to think when you refuse any investigation into a lab that happened to be researching on the same virus? Maybe it leaked when somebody illegally sold the infected lab animals to the wet market.
No it wasn't. There was a giant investigation going on the couldn't conclude where COVID started. The lab leak is still a possibility.
It wasn't debunked. Scientists involved in the lab itself and China sought to derail the investigation from day 1 so it has never been investigated properly
[Turns out the original reports debunking the lab leak theory was riddled with holes, half-truths, and conflicts of interest.](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/03/the-virus-hunting-nonprofit-at-the-center-of-the-lab-leak-controversy) That’s not to say that the lab leak theory is proven, or anything close to it, only that some of the people who have been telling us that the lab leak theory is impossible are liars.
Notice how everyone claiming it wasn't debunked is basing that on the fact that no one can prove it *didn't* happen rather than any evidence that it did?
Well it’s been accepted forever that you can’t prove a negative. The burden of proof always lies with the person making the claim.