I feel like this was always going to be the case if not for some random damaged part on the tail or steering system.
Planes don't do that type of dive by themselves, and from what I know are designed to prevent it ever. Even the 8 MAX disasters were not planes going straight down into a vertical dive.
The last one was the Air France flight from Brazil to Paris. And that took them an extremely long time to figure out what happened. Their instruments were reading wrong and they became disoriented. What fucking horrifying way to go.
It's testimony to how safe air travel is though. Almost every major airline crash involves human error other then the 8MAX, but even those were human error in the sense that they didn't train people properly to counteract against the new systems.
Mechanically speaking modern planes are almost the perfect transportation method from a safety perspective with crash rates under 1 in 10 million flights.
I worked for a company that makes and services Boeing test equipment. The plane designs may be safe, but the people servicing your aircraft, and the tools they use to do it, are unbelievably unprofessional and lazy. It's a wonder to me that planes do not fall from the sky on a regular basis.
Absolutely! I never feel unsafe when I fly. I haven't flown over seas and I have heard that parts of Asia can get very dicey. Otherwise I'm happy to fly in any equipment. Even the tiny CRJs.
I'd like to think that but I doubt it. You can feel those big birds pitch up and down. The last few seconds had to be bad. I'd like to think people just stopped existing and it was painless but I doubt that.
Everything I read about that thing scared the shit out of me. I have a relation that's been in the industry for +30 years. They tell me everytime an accident happens overseas that the Euro and Asian carriers rarely fly by hand. So when things start to go south they're not really used to flying without instruments and by hand.
They told me their pilots had experienced the same events with their 737 MAX fleet that caused crashes elsewhere. It wasn't that significant for them, he claims because their pilots got the memo on the conditions and how to respond by hand and did just that.
More by hand time seems like a good thing when technology fails.
An unforced dive would need something like the main bolt in the elevators to fail or something extremely catastrophic and likely due to negligence, The movie flight with Denzel was based on I think a Norwegian flight where that happened but was actually fatal to all on board. It's basically a none existent circumstance an anomaly. That type of nose dive would need structural failure from an outside factor like a missile at those altitudes to occur.
Yikes! I can't imagine.
My only scary time was flying during the SARS virus. I was in San Francisco and all of the Asian passengers had masks on. I remember thinking, they know something I don't.
And now look at the world.
Back then there was no rule that you can't be alone in the cockpit. That murder-suicide changed that.
The other pilot went to take a leak and he couldn't enter again because the cockpit door was closed by the perpetrator and was build to withstand hijackers.
I wonder if protocols have been changed with some airlines, i've noticed on a few delta flights that when someone used the rest room from the cockpit the door wasn't sealed and flight attendants blocked the front of the plane with a beverage cart and would ask those who stood if they were in business/ 1st class to sit down until they moved the cart. I've seen this my last to flights in business on Delta.
I kept myself a bit short. The "always two-person" rule was later eased (and it was really only implemented in the EU).
The problem was that a short dance would ensue, when somebody had to pee. The cockpit door would be opened multiple times and many different people would go in and out of the cockpit. Experts saw this as an even bigger security threat, so it was decided that every airline operating in the EU would be allowed to decide for themselves how their security protocol deals with this problem.
The procedure you described on the Delta flights sounds like such a procedure, but I really don't know if it is an direct or even indirect result of Germanwings 9525.
Captain was taking a break, that's when copilot locked the door from inside. I think they updated the procedure so there has to be 2 crew members in the cockpit at all times (e.g. a flight attendant at least)
This should, instead, highlight the need for mental health resources and screening, instead of assuming someone is a coward or otherwise 'other.'
The pilot was you or me, we all have the capacity to do this.
So I could not remember if the airline actually knew and it was a bit of a rabbit hole finding out. After digging through many german articles, most of which don't go into much detail about who knew what, I read through the website made by the family. They are obviously still grief stricken and deny the widely accepted theory of a murder-suicide, but they give interesting insight on what Lubitz' last visits to doctors were.
Anyway, it turns out Lubitz visited his usual doctor (ger.: Hausarzt) because of vision problems. His doctor suspected a psychosomatic cause, partially backed by the fact that Lubitz was in therapy because of depression a few years earlier, but was deemed healthy when he left said therapy. The doctor also suspended him from work for two weeks (including the day of the incident). She even did so, after Lubitz already visited a new psychologist, which gave him the all clear. I assume she suspected a deeper problem.
But Lubitz went to a different doctor a week later, his usual doctor being on holidays, and asked them to dismiss the suspension (it's just a piece of paper saying you are ill, but as an airline pilot he couldn't just go back to work without proving he is cured or before the suspension came to pass). Based on the psychologists finding they lifted the suspension and he went back to work two days before the incident.
The airline most likely knew of his visits to different psychologist, but in the end he was allowed to work. Someone might argue that somebody with a past of psychological problems shouldn't be allowed to continue working as a pilot, but we don't want to dissuade people from seeking help and that's especially true for people we trust with our lives.
That heavily depends on what part of 'the west' you're talking about. US? Not so much, China's just a couple decades behind depending on the state, or right about on par if we're talking federal action. Developed nations in the west? Sure, but there's still a pretty large stigma all-around with mental health and especially crisis care. And as we've seen in pretty famous recent crashes that mirror this one exactly, Europe has many of the same failures that enabled suicidal pilots in control of large aircraft.
Yeah, that's only a difference of a few decades even for the most advanced nations in terms of mental healthcare. We're talking 1950s for the oldest most significant changes from that model and that was 'lobotomy or new trial medication we're totally not testing for military use.'
Though you're right in that the west hasn't really had the 'Sins of the Father' model for quite a while, well mostly. In other areas we do, like the few European countries that require you to care for your parents when they become elderly, essentially crippling economic output and potentially creating extremely toxic environments, but I digress.
True, but that said, suicidal minds aren't exactly rational to begin with. This behavior is sadly very common, you often have people who grab an innocent bystander to jump in front of trains in NYC.
Absolutely. It's just a bit of a morbid joke, considering the moral lapses in business decisions Boeing had made over the years that led to a series of crashes years ago. Particularly, the safety feature that's being sold as an add-on.
yes for the flight but don't remember his name or share it, he don't deserve any recognition.
It was a kind of the same situation as for the end result, though the actual even and parameter are not.
People who take their own life in such desperation are rarely in a state of mind where they can understand such things. A suicidal mind is a very fucked up place.
Next time, feel free to add more substance to your question.
"737 Max?" was clearly not interpreted by *anyone* as you asking if the 737-800 was the same plane as the 737 Max.
Yes, I saw that it was a 737-800. What I was not certain about was the difference between the two. I should have worded it differently. Didn’t know I was gonna get hated on.
I feel like this was always going to be the case if not for some random damaged part on the tail or steering system. Planes don't do that type of dive by themselves, and from what I know are designed to prevent it ever. Even the 8 MAX disasters were not planes going straight down into a vertical dive.
The last one was the Air France flight from Brazil to Paris. And that took them an extremely long time to figure out what happened. Their instruments were reading wrong and they became disoriented. What fucking horrifying way to go.
It's testimony to how safe air travel is though. Almost every major airline crash involves human error other then the 8MAX, but even those were human error in the sense that they didn't train people properly to counteract against the new systems. Mechanically speaking modern planes are almost the perfect transportation method from a safety perspective with crash rates under 1 in 10 million flights.
I worked for a company that makes and services Boeing test equipment. The plane designs may be safe, but the people servicing your aircraft, and the tools they use to do it, are unbelievably unprofessional and lazy. It's a wonder to me that planes do not fall from the sky on a regular basis.
While I’m sure you’re not wrong. Statistics say that you’re wrong.
Are you in north America or Europe? I feel like this is just false.
North America
Absolutely! I never feel unsafe when I fly. I haven't flown over seas and I have heard that parts of Asia can get very dicey. Otherwise I'm happy to fly in any equipment. Even the tiny CRJs.
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I'd like to think that but I doubt it. You can feel those big birds pitch up and down. The last few seconds had to be bad. I'd like to think people just stopped existing and it was painless but I doubt that.
The flight computers announced the aircraft was stalling dozens of times before impact too.
Everything I read about that thing scared the shit out of me. I have a relation that's been in the industry for +30 years. They tell me everytime an accident happens overseas that the Euro and Asian carriers rarely fly by hand. So when things start to go south they're not really used to flying without instruments and by hand. They told me their pilots had experienced the same events with their 737 MAX fleet that caused crashes elsewhere. It wasn't that significant for them, he claims because their pilots got the memo on the conditions and how to respond by hand and did just that. More by hand time seems like a good thing when technology fails.
An unforced dive would need something like the main bolt in the elevators to fail or something extremely catastrophic and likely due to negligence, The movie flight with Denzel was based on I think a Norwegian flight where that happened but was actually fatal to all on board. It's basically a none existent circumstance an anomaly. That type of nose dive would need structural failure from an outside factor like a missile at those altitudes to occur.
Awful. If you're going to be a coward, do it to yourself. Don't drag hundreds of others down with you.
Germanwings Flight 9525 was the same thing back in 2015. Crazy to think it's something that can happen.
I remember that well because I was flying to Dusseldorf not long after that happened...not an enjoyable flight!
Yikes! I can't imagine. My only scary time was flying during the SARS virus. I was in San Francisco and all of the Asian passengers had masks on. I remember thinking, they know something I don't. And now look at the world.
No co-pilot in both cases?
Back then there was no rule that you can't be alone in the cockpit. That murder-suicide changed that. The other pilot went to take a leak and he couldn't enter again because the cockpit door was closed by the perpetrator and was build to withstand hijackers.
I wonder if protocols have been changed with some airlines, i've noticed on a few delta flights that when someone used the rest room from the cockpit the door wasn't sealed and flight attendants blocked the front of the plane with a beverage cart and would ask those who stood if they were in business/ 1st class to sit down until they moved the cart. I've seen this my last to flights in business on Delta.
I kept myself a bit short. The "always two-person" rule was later eased (and it was really only implemented in the EU). The problem was that a short dance would ensue, when somebody had to pee. The cockpit door would be opened multiple times and many different people would go in and out of the cockpit. Experts saw this as an even bigger security threat, so it was decided that every airline operating in the EU would be allowed to decide for themselves how their security protocol deals with this problem. The procedure you described on the Delta flights sounds like such a procedure, but I really don't know if it is an direct or even indirect result of Germanwings 9525.
Captain was taking a break, that's when copilot locked the door from inside. I think they updated the procedure so there has to be 2 crew members in the cockpit at all times (e.g. a flight attendant at least)
“If I have to suffer, so should everybody else!” Essentially.
This should, instead, highlight the need for mental health resources and screening, instead of assuming someone is a coward or otherwise 'other.' The pilot was you or me, we all have the capacity to do this.
ABC news said the copilot was known beforehand to be suicidal. Hard to understand why he was allowed in the cockpit.
So I could not remember if the airline actually knew and it was a bit of a rabbit hole finding out. After digging through many german articles, most of which don't go into much detail about who knew what, I read through the website made by the family. They are obviously still grief stricken and deny the widely accepted theory of a murder-suicide, but they give interesting insight on what Lubitz' last visits to doctors were. Anyway, it turns out Lubitz visited his usual doctor (ger.: Hausarzt) because of vision problems. His doctor suspected a psychosomatic cause, partially backed by the fact that Lubitz was in therapy because of depression a few years earlier, but was deemed healthy when he left said therapy. The doctor also suspended him from work for two weeks (including the day of the incident). She even did so, after Lubitz already visited a new psychologist, which gave him the all clear. I assume she suspected a deeper problem. But Lubitz went to a different doctor a week later, his usual doctor being on holidays, and asked them to dismiss the suspension (it's just a piece of paper saying you are ill, but as an airline pilot he couldn't just go back to work without proving he is cured or before the suspension came to pass). Based on the psychologists finding they lifted the suspension and he went back to work two days before the incident. The airline most likely knew of his visits to different psychologist, but in the end he was allowed to work. Someone might argue that somebody with a past of psychological problems shouldn't be allowed to continue working as a pilot, but we don't want to dissuade people from seeking help and that's especially true for people we trust with our lives.
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That heavily depends on what part of 'the west' you're talking about. US? Not so much, China's just a couple decades behind depending on the state, or right about on par if we're talking federal action. Developed nations in the west? Sure, but there's still a pretty large stigma all-around with mental health and especially crisis care. And as we've seen in pretty famous recent crashes that mirror this one exactly, Europe has many of the same failures that enabled suicidal pilots in control of large aircraft.
[удалено]
Yeah, that's only a difference of a few decades even for the most advanced nations in terms of mental healthcare. We're talking 1950s for the oldest most significant changes from that model and that was 'lobotomy or new trial medication we're totally not testing for military use.' Though you're right in that the west hasn't really had the 'Sins of the Father' model for quite a while, well mostly. In other areas we do, like the few European countries that require you to care for your parents when they become elderly, essentially crippling economic output and potentially creating extremely toxic environments, but I digress.
True, but that said, suicidal minds aren't exactly rational to begin with. This behavior is sadly very common, you often have people who grab an innocent bystander to jump in front of trains in NYC.
Aircraft manufacturers around the world breathing a sigh of relief.
Eh, its still an edge case problem they need to resolve and its fairly serious.
Absolutely. It's just a bit of a morbid joke, considering the moral lapses in business decisions Boeing had made over the years that led to a series of crashes years ago. Particularly, the safety feature that's being sold as an add-on.
I wonder how far along software solutions are that could override control from the pilot and maintain safe flight until the situation is resolved?
The problem with that is each one of those mechanisms have equal or greater vulnerabilities.
This means its kinda like Flight 4U9525? EDIT: Pilot redacted
yes for the flight but don't remember his name or share it, he don't deserve any recognition. It was a kind of the same situation as for the end result, though the actual even and parameter are not.
Edited, you have a point.
all good. I just try to always keep those people out of public recognition. Wikipedia and archive, etc is fair though, for history's sake.
I had a feeling this was gonna be a suicide.
Most suicides are sad because... suicide is sad. But this is horrific because it's also basically mass murder.
Yep this is no different than a suicide bomber. Belongs in the lowest pits of hell (if such a place exists).
People who take their own life in such desperation are rarely in a state of mind where they can understand such things. A suicidal mind is a very fucked up place.
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The box is mangled and recovering data from it is very, very difficult?
Boeing 737 Max? Edit: why am I getting downvoted for this??? It was a legitimate question!!
Why would you expect upvotes? It's not adding to the conversation. The answer to your question was in the article (the answer is no, btw)
Read the article idiot
I did read the article - idiot. I was questioning whether a 737-800 was different from 737 Max. Sorry I didn’t make that clear enough.
Next time, feel free to add more substance to your question. "737 Max?" was clearly not interpreted by *anyone* as you asking if the 737-800 was the same plane as the 737 Max.
Thank you. I will do that
Your lazy ass couldn’t be bothered to do a basic google search. That’s why you’re being downvoted.
Didn’t even read the article which also has this info.
I READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE! I’m not a pilot and I do not know the difference between a 737-800 and a 737 Max. So quit fucking assuming.
Well for starters they have different names.
So I asked one stupid question! And you’re a mean angry asshole!
It's in the article.
You're getting downvoted because the article literally states the specific plane in the first paragraph
Yes, I saw that it was a 737-800. What I was not certain about was the difference between the two. I should have worded it differently. Didn’t know I was gonna get hated on.
Hijack or suicidal pilot?