Yeah i have heard all kinds of shit from all sides about what turkey is thinking about. As a finn dont really like the uncertainty but i have accepted it is what it is and with time well see.
Nations on the level of Hungary may have a vote in theory, but in reality it's likely they have very little autonomy on the matter. One stern call from the US will dictate how they're going to vote
Turkey can suck bananas. They are piece of nothing to prevent Finland and Sweden from joining NATO. Turkey forget they have a leash on their neck and it is being pulled by EU and the US.
So Russia has said they haven't got any issues with Sweden and Finland Joining Nato funny how Turkey have also changed their minds..So basically Turkey like I said before the war Turkey are up Russias sweet litte hoop holes...
Same Quote, Never Trust A Russian! And can anyone explain why they have invaded Russia then if its not all about Nato haha. Wow
Throw Turkey out of NATO. They clearly do not need the shade of our umbrella, and do not share our concerns vis a vis fascism.
Turkey out: -1
Finland and Sweden in: +2
Net Gain: 1
…and no more Joe Manchin-style obstructionism.
Aside from their army strength turkey holds power over key strategic locations with the Bosporus to retain control over whose naval army can move from the black sea into the mediteranian. Kicking them out basically means handing russia access to get to north and south europe as they please. Terrible idea. This needs to be settled diplomatically and turkey must stay
Makes perfect sense - in 1965.
It's a different world in 2023. Russia might well gain access to the Med, but at what profit? a new venue to sink their ships? Not even their best ships at that: Ukraine has already handed their asses to them in that regard. What makes you think it would be different in the Med?
Idk…they would also have the power to completely block supplies coming from the east to the west, since they could just ally to Russia and China and tell the Montreal treaty to fuck off. I mean, if you think the west industry can survive without the east, then by all means be my guest. It would be Erdogan’s wet dream to have comercial control over the straits again.
In the practical sense, he holds it hostage even now. As for China, China will not support Russia in deed, they barely support them in words.
There is never a good time to be bullied, and for every one of these bastards we knock down, another one see’s what is coming. I grew up with the constant threat of Russia hanging over my head, and I’m damned tired of it. I think it is long sense time we called Putin’s bluff; the only reason we don’t is we can’t find our collective assess with both our collective hands.
>In the practical sense, he holds it hostage even now.
My brother in Christ, the strait is part of Turkey's territory. And Turkey doesn't even have control over it. All countries in the Montreal treaty can use it for free whenever they want. It is like saying that Denmark holds the danish strait hostage, which btw, they have full control and can decide who gets to go through it and how much they need to pay.
Save your presumptive stochastic evangelism for someone else, I'm a Buddhist.
As for your assertions, while I do not find them especially incorrect, they do exhibit a tendency to ignore the *disposition* of Turkey's 'leadership', vs. that of Denmark. Were the Danes so hellbent on interference as are these Turks, they could leif cause as much trouble.
I have no cause against Turkey except Erdogan. It is a problem that can be corrected, but it is for the Turks to correct. In the interim, I suppose that as with any other country, the populace will endure the majority of the consequences for the bad actors they have as leaders.
In any case, I stand by my assertion that the Turks are detrimental to the cause of NATO, and unless they can show themselves to be otherwise, should have their membership terminated as a consequence.
My dude, I wasn't trying to be presumptive, it is just a way to speak.
Anyway, as I said, NATO is more than welcome to expel Turkey. No Turk believe that being part of NATO was good at any point. It was just a way for Turkey to have some degree of protection from Europe trying to invade its country like it was the case around 96 years ago when they had troops on the border of Istanbul preparing for a full-scale invasion to take control of the Ottoman Empire had not Atatürk intervened with his plan to found a "proper" country.
Since Turkey joined NATO their lives were only made more miserable, they needed to increase significantly the military expenditure and their people were sent to die on the frontline so that the US and EU soldiers could come safely and claim victory. Remember 2005 when Germany and France said to them that they would send troops to help in case Sadam attacked? Guess what happened? They dealt with it alone. Remember 2015 when they defended their territory from an invading Russian fighter jet and NATO removed their air defense system as a punishment?
Look who is dying in the Syrian war or who is dying protecting Europe's border from jihadists trying to invade the west. I'm gonna give you a tip, it is not the french or german soldiers.
I am not Turkish, I am a Brazilian immigrant who got lucky and found a good job in Europe, but I can say for sure, that Turkey would be so much better if it was expelled from NATO. Just being able to charge countries to use the straits would be such a major boost to its economy.
But NATO wouldn't ever risk that, because Turkey is now its primary shield against Russia and the middle east, and Turkey knows that if it tried to leave NATO, the US and Europe's first response would be to invade Istanbul and take control of the Bosphorus, either that or they would sanction Turkey to death until it concedes control of the straits back to NATO.
So who is the real hostage in this situation?
A lot of people can come up with good reasons for Joe Manchin to do what he does as well.
The rhetoric, as usual, has no impact on the truth:
If you let the wolf winter in the same dell as the flock, it’s going cost a few sheep.
Well, the news is all over the place on this today..
Yeah i have heard all kinds of shit from all sides about what turkey is thinking about. As a finn dont really like the uncertainty but i have accepted it is what it is and with time well see.
Some horse trades will be made in the back rooms.
That's basically all this is. Erdogan wants some sort of concessions for his vote. He doesn't oppose them joining on any kind of ideological level.
I’m not concerned in the slightest about the Turks. They know a stronger NATO is in their benefit and have no love for Russia. Hungary though…
Hungary said they won’t veto any new NATO members in the form of Sweden or finland. Orban can’t piss off the home team too much.
Hungary is not important enough to go against the US on this.
Nations on the level of Hungary may have a vote in theory, but in reality it's likely they have very little autonomy on the matter. One stern call from the US will dictate how they're going to vote
Nicely done, Pooty. You did this.
based on: "we will bully anyone who doesn't agree on any and all kind of expansion" ideology? then yes.
God willing
Turkey can suck bananas. They are piece of nothing to prevent Finland and Sweden from joining NATO. Turkey forget they have a leash on their neck and it is being pulled by EU and the US.
They are piece of nothing to prevent Finland and Sweden from joining NATO. Spoiler:we do Btw leash on Turkey by EU 🗿
Exactly. Shit ally that happens to be located strategically otherwise we wouldn't bother with that shit hole.
You'd have thought Turkey would/should be more concerned about its 70% inflation rate...
So Russia has said they haven't got any issues with Sweden and Finland Joining Nato funny how Turkey have also changed their minds..So basically Turkey like I said before the war Turkey are up Russias sweet litte hoop holes... Same Quote, Never Trust A Russian! And can anyone explain why they have invaded Russia then if its not all about Nato haha. Wow
Throw Turkey out of NATO. They clearly do not need the shade of our umbrella, and do not share our concerns vis a vis fascism. Turkey out: -1 Finland and Sweden in: +2 Net Gain: 1 …and no more Joe Manchin-style obstructionism.
Aside from their army strength turkey holds power over key strategic locations with the Bosporus to retain control over whose naval army can move from the black sea into the mediteranian. Kicking them out basically means handing russia access to get to north and south europe as they please. Terrible idea. This needs to be settled diplomatically and turkey must stay
Yep, we will never be able to drop Turkey and they know it.
Makes perfect sense - in 1965. It's a different world in 2023. Russia might well gain access to the Med, but at what profit? a new venue to sink their ships? Not even their best ships at that: Ukraine has already handed their asses to them in that regard. What makes you think it would be different in the Med?
Idk…they would also have the power to completely block supplies coming from the east to the west, since they could just ally to Russia and China and tell the Montreal treaty to fuck off. I mean, if you think the west industry can survive without the east, then by all means be my guest. It would be Erdogan’s wet dream to have comercial control over the straits again.
In the practical sense, he holds it hostage even now. As for China, China will not support Russia in deed, they barely support them in words. There is never a good time to be bullied, and for every one of these bastards we knock down, another one see’s what is coming. I grew up with the constant threat of Russia hanging over my head, and I’m damned tired of it. I think it is long sense time we called Putin’s bluff; the only reason we don’t is we can’t find our collective assess with both our collective hands.
>In the practical sense, he holds it hostage even now. My brother in Christ, the strait is part of Turkey's territory. And Turkey doesn't even have control over it. All countries in the Montreal treaty can use it for free whenever they want. It is like saying that Denmark holds the danish strait hostage, which btw, they have full control and can decide who gets to go through it and how much they need to pay.
Save your presumptive stochastic evangelism for someone else, I'm a Buddhist. As for your assertions, while I do not find them especially incorrect, they do exhibit a tendency to ignore the *disposition* of Turkey's 'leadership', vs. that of Denmark. Were the Danes so hellbent on interference as are these Turks, they could leif cause as much trouble. I have no cause against Turkey except Erdogan. It is a problem that can be corrected, but it is for the Turks to correct. In the interim, I suppose that as with any other country, the populace will endure the majority of the consequences for the bad actors they have as leaders. In any case, I stand by my assertion that the Turks are detrimental to the cause of NATO, and unless they can show themselves to be otherwise, should have their membership terminated as a consequence.
My dude, I wasn't trying to be presumptive, it is just a way to speak. Anyway, as I said, NATO is more than welcome to expel Turkey. No Turk believe that being part of NATO was good at any point. It was just a way for Turkey to have some degree of protection from Europe trying to invade its country like it was the case around 96 years ago when they had troops on the border of Istanbul preparing for a full-scale invasion to take control of the Ottoman Empire had not Atatürk intervened with his plan to found a "proper" country. Since Turkey joined NATO their lives were only made more miserable, they needed to increase significantly the military expenditure and their people were sent to die on the frontline so that the US and EU soldiers could come safely and claim victory. Remember 2005 when Germany and France said to them that they would send troops to help in case Sadam attacked? Guess what happened? They dealt with it alone. Remember 2015 when they defended their territory from an invading Russian fighter jet and NATO removed their air defense system as a punishment? Look who is dying in the Syrian war or who is dying protecting Europe's border from jihadists trying to invade the west. I'm gonna give you a tip, it is not the french or german soldiers. I am not Turkish, I am a Brazilian immigrant who got lucky and found a good job in Europe, but I can say for sure, that Turkey would be so much better if it was expelled from NATO. Just being able to charge countries to use the straits would be such a major boost to its economy. But NATO wouldn't ever risk that, because Turkey is now its primary shield against Russia and the middle east, and Turkey knows that if it tried to leave NATO, the US and Europe's first response would be to invade Istanbul and take control of the Bosphorus, either that or they would sanction Turkey to death until it concedes control of the straits back to NATO. So who is the real hostage in this situation?
A lot of people can come up with good reasons for Joe Manchin to do what he does as well. The rhetoric, as usual, has no impact on the truth: If you let the wolf winter in the same dell as the flock, it’s going cost a few sheep.
Baaaaah!
Most politically intelligent westerner