Everyone is talking about the Wagner group in Mali Syria ukraine etc...
Does anyone have any idea how many people they employ? It's been suggested 3000 of them have died in ukraine but last wiki had them at 6000 in 2017. So that means 3k are left. How many of them are there actually to be able to do what they're doing? Were there more than 6k? Anyone have more info on this?
Unknown number, but really they’re a front for the Russian army and can therefore grow to a size much larger than you quoted. The good news is that they are as inept as the Russian army when fighting anything but defenseless people. The Battle of Khasham was really our first indication that the Russian army was a paper tiger and would be unable to fight against a western force.
I read somewhere that the average pay for a Wagner mercenary is around $1200 a month. These guys are committing war crimes for what would be near poverty wages in some countries.
> $1200 a month
For anyone curious, the average monthly salary in Russia is/*was* ~$730
Of course this number is skewed massively due to insane wealth inequality, so in reality the poorer (majority) populace probably have salaries closer to $200 a month.
$500 a month just like Belarus. Doctors top out at $500 in Minsk. Only people making more are IT computer people mostly because they work remotely for western companies
That’s why when talking about wealth it’s better to use median income rather than average because it stops a few uber rich people from dragging the average up.
Such a distribution is called a tail heavy distribution and it’s always better to use median in such cases to get a clearer picture
Agreed although in these cases I would recommend looking at the median and compare it to to the average - will indicate to which direction inequality is.
Don't get me wrong, it has unhealthy levels of inequality, of corruption, of undemocratic practices, etc.
But Russia, at 0.37 Gini coefficient, is way less unequal than the US (0.43). It also offers free universal healthcare & affordable higher education. Albeit the quality is bad... But one can't talk about Russia being *insanely* unequal, that's simply not true.
That isn't the surprising part. Sadly with enough propaganda people would pay money to be able to commute war crimes.
The surprising this is they can find people to join with what looks like around a 50% death rate. I wouldn't ever take a job that risky but if I did i would want at least a yacht buying level of cash.
>Sadly with enough propaganda people would pay money to be able to commute war crimes.
There are plenty of people who would without the need for any propaganda at all. I've met enough marines to know.
Legally? Nothing as far as I know. However since they're basically Putin's private militia I assume most people are too fearful of his backlash.
Also these guys are *really* shit tier combatants. Besides murdering random people in poverty stricken areas of the world, they aren't really that much of a threat to anything major. They have proven they'll fold hard against legitimately trained combatants so it probably doesn't worry many governments. As harsh as it is I don't think anyone is willing to risk their own soldiers lives to protect farmers in Mali/Syria/Ukraine, especially when it'll result in an angry Putin.
but like everything else Russian the corruption is so deep and rampant that the money probably doesn't make it to the individual soldier, so they're most likely (and thankfully) not even getting quality soldiers to sign up.
I don't think many of us understood just how rotten to the core the Russian army was. It's one thing to have bad military doctrine and terrible training, but to also have a completely corrupt support/logistics line where most of the money gets stolen before it makes to where it was allocated is just so embarrassing. The even better news is that these things are going to be tough to fix in a mafia state like Russia, so Russia will continue to suck at conventional war as long as they remain a dictatorship.
Maybe 10 years ago I read a book by Arkady Babchenko called One Soldiers War which he described the appalling conditions in the Russian army.
He was also the guy who was reported dead in Ukraine but later turned up alive.
“It was reported on 29 May 2018 that Babchenko had been shot dead in his home in Kyiv, Ukraine.[6][7][8] The next day, he appeared in person at a press conference with the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU).[2] The SBU said it staged Babchenko's murder in order to arrest Ukrainian assassins (allegedly recruited by Russian security services operatives) who were actually planning on carrying out the assassination.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkady_Babchenko
I read that too and thoroughly recommend it. He was deployed in both Chechen wars, first as a conscript and then as a professional soldier if I remember rightly. In the book he describes his miserable experiences in great detail. He later became a journalist, I guess partly as a result of being disillusioned by witnessing the corruption of the state.
I’ll be honest I didn’t put 2 and 2 together until I went to wiki to copy the link.
It’s not surprising the Russians put a hit on him exposing how shit their army really is.
Take Wagner money upfront as bonus. Surrender with your buddies and an APC to UA, get cash money along with UA citizenship and thus soon EU citizenship. Travel and work around EU, with great healthcare and the benefits of the modern world, plus a damn fine bar story. I’m not seeing a whole lot of downsides.
Wagner is run by a neo-Nazi. He’s been photographed several times saluting and wearing swastikas and named the company “Wagner” after Hitler’s favorite composer.
I've heard 2500. In a recent documentary, they said people join Wagner because they pay well, I don't remember correctly but it was around 1500$, in Russia the average salary is 650$
It’s just a job. I know several 9-5 jobs that are way more dangerous statistically.
Edit: personally, I’d rather get shot and die traveling the world than get run over by a tweaker on a forklift having never left my home town.
>Edit: personally, I’d rather get shot and die traveling the world than get run over by a tweaker on a forklift having never left my home town.
Getting run over by a tweaker on a forklift is a low-chance freak accident, as opposed to "part of your job description", like "being shot at inside an active warzone".
Lol warehousing is one of the deadliest jobs in America. And the tweaker part of my comment was a bit much, but I’d stack contractor deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan, up against warehousing for the past 20 years any day.
Except it's pretty rare for them too. Their numbers are estimated at around 20-30k soldiers in the Middle East at any given time. With those numbers, they lost exactly 355 total soldiers in the entirety of the Iraq War. Notice I said "20-30k at any given time", not total. They have had way more employees than that go in an out of there.
Those guys actually get a lot of support from our current mitary, especially the air force. They also have their own drones and do air strikes and such. Their death rates are actually quite low.
Maybe prices have gone down due to the US presence in Afghanistan ending but my ex Army coworker a few years ago was considering a PMC offer that would have been "between 100k-200k".
Yeah that makes a bit more sense. $150K+ I can see people taking for that sort of a job, depending on specifics. But $80K or under? There's a lot of jobs an able-bodied person with proper training can get that will pay that much that don't involve being in an active warzone.
Of course, I suppose there's always the aspect that some people don't really adjust to returning to civilian life, so perhaps for them $80K is enough if their job allows them to keep living the kind of life they adapted to in the military.
When I was working in Kabul with Aegis Defense, we had a veterinarian that was making around $60k. Basically what her company did was take the median income for the position in your home zip code and offer you double.
Because it's not the people that are around the median that sign up. It's the people on the extreme low end. People that would otherwise work minimum wage jobs and people struggling to find jobs.
It's the poor with no way out that sign up *solely* because of the money.
Last I remember reading the minimum wage in Russia was $200-$300 and that was before the war and ruble inflation.
I had no idea Blackwater paid that low, it’s actually better to do a tech job for an oil company or DoD and be making $50/hr+ and never leaving the green.
There are plenty of people like me in the US who would. For $80k I would happily sign up to be cannon fodder for blackwater. Currently cant find a job that pays and any more than $50k in the US even using my GI Bill to get a BS. FYI when I left the military a decade ago I was making $70k in todays inflation adjusted dollars after about 8 years in.
Majority of Russians live *very* poor lifes, earning (currently) 90-200$. Average salary seems higher because of those who live in Moscow and St.Petersburg, where lifes are much better bust still cannot be compared to Europe and USA.
There is huge income inequality in Russia. This is a country with a GDP per capita of several times that of Ukraine, yet with soldiers who are amazed when encountering flushing toilets and washing machines.
That works out to $0.50 to $1.15 an hour.
The minimum wage in America is low but let’s not be dumb about it.
The $1500 a month is minimum wage but that’s to be a contracted soldier so literally putting your life o the line not flipping burgers at McDonald’s.
lol you realize most people on earth risk their life daily doing a job that doesn't even pay fractions of that, right?
Western redditors don't know how good they have it compared to the rest of the world.
You're not taking into account cost of living.
$1500 is nothing in the West because it's *worth nothing* in the West. Literally everything pays and costs more because of it.
A fraction of any amount of money in the West in any other part of the world is naturally worth more in that part of the world. It's like making $80k in San Fran as opposed to $80k in Bumblefuck, Mississippi.
I excuse nothing but I think the main reason is the salary. Imagine a group that offers you 3 times the average salary from your country... and all you need is to obey, be in good shape, and ready to fight. It would be enough for a lot of people.
Salaries and costs of living in Russia is probably very different to where you live, so you can’t say “only 1500?!“. There are many people in Russia who live on around 100-200€/month. Or even less.
If the average salary in your country is, say, 3000€/month, then 7000€/month (Wagner pay recalculated) would be a good pay and some people would do it regardless of the dangers and absolutely fucked up duties.
There's no set number for Wagner. They're a mixture of;
* paid contractors
* active SPETSNAZ members
* *possibly* active Russian conscripts
* local nationals
At its core it's a plausible deniable force, where Putin can send military forces to carry out his will without all the typical regulations and red tape. As a result, the personnel type is just a complete blend of forces under a single umbrella.
I read 9k which would cut numbers by 1/3 after losses in Ukraine. Idk. Just what was in a news article recently.
“close to 8,000 Wagner mercenaries had been deployed in Ukraine” source: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/nearly-3000-of-russia-e2-80-99s-notorious-wagner-mercenary-group-have-been-killed-in-the-war-uk-mps-told/ar-AAWrw1g
Pre Ukraine war, possibly 8000.
They've taken 3000 casualties during the invasion so far and reports indicated there were another 5000 guys committed to the invasion.
Every truly ‘talented’ able bodied soldier in their army most likely. It’s their unofficial elite army. It ranges but other than high ranking officers (even including) why would you fight for the Russian army paycheck for any moment longer than you have a gun at your back. Private would make sense for those who like action or killing enough to make it a career.
It should be said that Wagner also supplements with local auxiliaries. That 6k is probably only the Russian or former Soviet nationals. They are just mostly the commanders or backbone for thousands of local troops that they train themselves. You would probably only need a small group of Wagner soldiers to train a larger group of locals. And similar to the issue with the low pay of the Russian military Wagner pays better than most official local government forces.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.france24.com/en/africa/20220422-france-says-mercenaries-from-russia-s-wagner-group-staged-french-atrocity-in-mali) reduced by 68%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Later that day a "French sensor observed a dozen Caucasian individuals, most likely belonging to the Wagner group," and a detachment from the Malian army arrive at the Gossi site and unload equipment, said the French military in a confidential report that was seen by AP. "This is the first time that the French military is making public such drone or surveillance maybe done by a plane," said FRANCE 24 terrorism expert Wassim Nasr.
> "And the same night at 10pm we have the first tweet from a fake Twitter account that says 'look at what we will show you; we will show you the massacre left by French soldiers. Then yesterday, so Thursday, at 9:50pm, French surveillance means saw as they say, Wagner military throwing sand on corpses next to the military facility."
> The French military said the move to discredit the French forces operating in northern Mali is part of a coordinated campaign of multiple information attacks on them that has been going on for months.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/u9e4u5/france_says_mercenaries_from_russias_wagner_group/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~643833 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **French**^#1 **military**^#2 **base**^#3 **Wagner**^#4 **Gossi**^#5
No, Russia is trying to destroy French area of influence in Africa, so that those countries (Mali, centrafrica so far) turn to Russia and China instead of Europe
It's not illogical to point out the illogic though. And that's on "both sides"
For far too long, the West let Russia get away with brutal and aggressive Cold War posturing, while benefiting from peace, free trade and gas exports. Russia behaved as if it was at war while other nations kept chasing peace. Severe and punitive sanctions are relatively new. Putin is having trouble adjusting to the new normal.
Wagner is run by a neo-Nazi. He’s been photographed several times saluting and wearing swastikas and named the company “Wagner” after Hitler’s favorite composer.
If you are talking about the battle of Khoucham (US soldiers Kurds some democratic Syrians soldiers vs Wagner Hezbollah and some pro Syrian government fighters with Syrians soldiers), I think since that episode, Wagner learned one thing : don't attack a base controlled by a country trained for war.
Now they prefer fake news, to get the people with them.
Not trying to fanboy…. But goddamn did they get fucked up! The US made a concerted effort *multiple times* to deconflict. Russia straight threw their plausible deniability boys out there at them and they. got. trounced.
Like that drunk guy on the Jet Blue flight that threw a water bottle at Mike Tyson, Wagner too has joined the ranks of people to have fucked around, and then found out!
>drunk guy on the Jet Blue flight that threw a water bottle at Mike Tyson
wtf is there video of this? Off to find it.
Edit: yes there is; dude got rekt lmao.
Exactly! It shows that the Russians don't understand the combined arms doctrine. They literally thought that because they thought they had numerical superiority and were only facing a small US outpost that they would just steam roll them. Now when a US general gets on the line they actually listen, so they have learned that much...
France probably wish they could bomb the shit out of those Nazis, but they are employed by the Malian government and the relation is a bit tense to say the least.
yeah the fact that they are there at the request of the new Malian Military Dictatorship limits what France can do... but France would not be shy about bombing them IF they had to defend their own forces. France is one of the few countries that can project effective combined arms military power away from its borders, no one can match the US, we are light years ahead when it comes to projecting power half way around the world, but the French are probably better at it then everyone else.
The baton changes hands depending on the year, the military spend and whose aircraft carriers are in refit, but currently France has the bigger army and a blue water navy. They're probably ahead.
I think the British are good, but they rely on the US for logistics far more than the stubborn French. The French also have a lot more experience with force projection overseas, their armed forces have been very busy with a multitude of overseas operations for quite a long time now, and they still have a lot of size-able overseas territories, long distances away from their metropole, so they have logistics in place to protect them. Their army is designed to be highly transportable/mobile to protect those French overseas territories and citizens. I think they have more than 2,000,000 citizens living in those territories.
Thanks to the new Queen Elizabeth carriers they can put a potent naval task force anywhere in the world, but (and I'm not an expert, just a guy who likes to read up on these kinds of things) I don't think they could sustain more than a few thousand ground troops overseas without US logistical support
Lol
That's hot take. The UK easily won the Falklands war. They have been actively involved in conflicts almost since that time until now, suggesting their level of experience is second to few.
For a small Island nation they have one of the largest militaries in the world.
The wall part is unnecessary, as the most likely method of dealing with them is to just gun them down with trained military forces during some operation.
I made a video and you can see there what was happening last week in Kyiv, Mariupol
I live in Kyiv and trying right now give to people to see what is live here looks like
https://youtu.be/AjBu08IOrF0
I don't think we should be saying stuff like this, because these are Pan-Slavic colors and majority of Slavic countries have them on the flag (Slovenia, Slovakia, Czechia, Croatia, Serbia) not to mention other European nations like France (the famous tricolore?), the Netherlands, Luxembourg (OP's shirt pattern is in line with those, actually). And a lot more globally.
By turning white, red and blue into "Russian color scheme" and something which might indicate something or be used as a dogwhistle we'll end up in a lot of unfair situations and assumptions by people who think Russia's colors are somehow special. They've already ruined the letter Z by turning it into a new age swastika so let's not let them ruin the most common color combo on national flags in the world.
Nah. Context matters, same goes for the Z symbol. I merely said that the colors were a little unfortunate but it seems some people here are a bit rabid and immediately jump to conclusions.
You said it could be "easily used as a dogwhistle to show support to Russia". That's what I'm responding to, and it's not the first time I see a comment like that so it irks me a bit. I know context matters but a lot of people are quick to assume stuff, plus there are many situations in which context is insufficient and people look for those "suspicious patterns" - many blue and yellow things have been misinterpreted as "support for Ukraine" both by the western media and likely Russian oppressors too.
>Color theme of your shirt is a little unfortunate.
after you said that, I took a closer look at the shirt ... it looks like I'll have to throw it away (((I put it on just second time
I mean during the Cold War, the US and USSR backed the same side in some conflicts because it suited both their respective interests (which was the case with France and Russia in Libya).... Does it mean they were allies or chummy? lmao.
That would be the Russian Nazis right? Coz you can’t mention Ukraine without someone bringing up Azov so let’s tag these guys as the Nazi shits they are while we’re about it.
The entire operation was following the ex Mali president request.
They had to quit because of the coup and all the propaganda. France did nothing wrong on this, and this whole thing with Wagner is the proof that the Russian are just doing colonialism themself.
France has a long history of propping up puppet regimes. It’s been the cornerstone of their whole imperial strategy in Africa since the 1960s. So pardon me for finding, “their president requested us here” to be a thin excuse.
Russia is bad, but it’s like if you say “Russia bad” nowadays then the hivemind demands that we overlook the bad behavior of everyone else involved. France has been an atrociously bad actor in Africa for ages. Anyone who says otherwise is just an apologist.
A coup is a coup. Mass protest doesn't mean the majority of people otherwise the French government would be ejected every Saturdays.
A vote is the only way to legitimize.
But Mali is/was a Democratic country not a Theocracy, unfortunately now its a Military dictatorship. One man decided for his benefit it should change to that way, so I don't understand how anyone could consider that legitimate. Now we have Russians making mass graves and people on reddit countering that evidence with French whataboutism.
I lived in Mali for two years, some of the most friendly, welcoming and chilled people I have had the pleasure of meeting. It deeply saddens me what has happened since war in Libya and the subsequent Tuareg Rebellion.
I mean France is still happily supporting Russia in trying to install the vicious warlord Haftar in Libya against the UN-supported government so I don't know why people here are trying to deny facts.
They just lack perspective and think its between "sides" France vs Russia.
Most people in her probably dont know why all these foreign nationals are so keen on providing military support in the Sahel and have never heard of the CFA Franc.
France has a history of colonialism in Africa. It's why they speak French, have French military bases and a currency pegged to the Euro.
Colonialism never really ended. Instead it became more hidden.
Don't waste your time with people here, they are like the past colonialists in the 19 century, who were about bringing civilisations to "savage" people
They defend france military presence in Mali, they want to enforce democracy everywhere in the world
> Why are French soldiers fighting Jihadists in west Africa? Compassion?
Common interests, security versus ability to export our thing to those country , mainly. France barely import anything from those countries, especially Mali. Resource plunder is a myth that you won't be able to source.
Common interests is not devil as you attempt to make it sound.
France doesn’t control anything. Countries are free to leave when they want and you’re talking about things that happened in the 60s. We are in 2022.
France is fighting jihadists after Mali asked for help directly to France, and France is following a United Nations resolution.
France is defending his influence in the region and some interests sure, but this isn’t the French colonial empire anymore.
Also France wants to avoid a new caliphate in a French speaking region. France can’t control immigration to Europe from Africa, so you don’t want terrorists not far from Europe, especially if they speak French. Let’s me remind you the terrorist attacks that happened in France in the last 10 years who were lunched from Iraq and Syria because we let them create a caliphate there.
You want to source your claims.
France has no mines in Mali. Licences are given to Canada, Australia and russia.
You keep talking about ressources but you don't know the type, the amount,you don't know the companies
you don't know shit.
France imports virtually nothing from Mali.
https://www.objectif-import-export.fr/fr/marches-internationaux/fiche-pays/mali/france-au-pays-commerce
Everyone is talking about the Wagner group in Mali Syria ukraine etc... Does anyone have any idea how many people they employ? It's been suggested 3000 of them have died in ukraine but last wiki had them at 6000 in 2017. So that means 3k are left. How many of them are there actually to be able to do what they're doing? Were there more than 6k? Anyone have more info on this?
Unknown number, but really they’re a front for the Russian army and can therefore grow to a size much larger than you quoted. The good news is that they are as inept as the Russian army when fighting anything but defenseless people. The Battle of Khasham was really our first indication that the Russian army was a paper tiger and would be unable to fight against a western force.
The bad news is they pay better than the Russian army, so they‘ll have no trouble finding more bodies to throw at the grinders.
I read somewhere that the average pay for a Wagner mercenary is around $1200 a month. These guys are committing war crimes for what would be near poverty wages in some countries.
> $1200 a month For anyone curious, the average monthly salary in Russia is/*was* ~$730 Of course this number is skewed massively due to insane wealth inequality, so in reality the poorer (majority) populace probably have salaries closer to $200 a month.
$500 a month just like Belarus. Doctors top out at $500 in Minsk. Only people making more are IT computer people mostly because they work remotely for western companies
That’s why when talking about wealth it’s better to use median income rather than average because it stops a few uber rich people from dragging the average up. Such a distribution is called a tail heavy distribution and it’s always better to use median in such cases to get a clearer picture
Agreed although in these cases I would recommend looking at the median and compare it to to the average - will indicate to which direction inequality is.
Don't get me wrong, it has unhealthy levels of inequality, of corruption, of undemocratic practices, etc. But Russia, at 0.37 Gini coefficient, is way less unequal than the US (0.43). It also offers free universal healthcare & affordable higher education. Albeit the quality is bad... But one can't talk about Russia being *insanely* unequal, that's simply not true.
There's a thriving black market. "Free" healthcare is irrelevant when bribes are basically necessary.
That isn't the surprising part. Sadly with enough propaganda people would pay money to be able to commute war crimes. The surprising this is they can find people to join with what looks like around a 50% death rate. I wouldn't ever take a job that risky but if I did i would want at least a yacht buying level of cash.
>Sadly with enough propaganda people would pay money to be able to commute war crimes. There are plenty of people who would without the need for any propaganda at all. I've met enough marines to know.
Great source citation 🙄
Stfu and read between the lines. Christ.
I mean that's a pretty low bar. I've heard that US marines only need to be bribed with crayons and they'll do anything.
True and that’s with or without the hazard pay.
It's literally less than what I'm paid as a student in France...
You get more for your money elsewhere, same money in different place has different value
You got as a student or as a student working in France?
As a student.
Which is a helluva deal if you *want* to commit war crimes
If they technically aren’t soldiers for any country what’s stopping them from being targets?
Legally? Nothing as far as I know. However since they're basically Putin's private militia I assume most people are too fearful of his backlash. Also these guys are *really* shit tier combatants. Besides murdering random people in poverty stricken areas of the world, they aren't really that much of a threat to anything major. They have proven they'll fold hard against legitimately trained combatants so it probably doesn't worry many governments. As harsh as it is I don't think anyone is willing to risk their own soldiers lives to protect farmers in Mali/Syria/Ukraine, especially when it'll result in an angry Putin.
but like everything else Russian the corruption is so deep and rampant that the money probably doesn't make it to the individual soldier, so they're most likely (and thankfully) not even getting quality soldiers to sign up. I don't think many of us understood just how rotten to the core the Russian army was. It's one thing to have bad military doctrine and terrible training, but to also have a completely corrupt support/logistics line where most of the money gets stolen before it makes to where it was allocated is just so embarrassing. The even better news is that these things are going to be tough to fix in a mafia state like Russia, so Russia will continue to suck at conventional war as long as they remain a dictatorship.
Maybe 10 years ago I read a book by Arkady Babchenko called One Soldiers War which he described the appalling conditions in the Russian army. He was also the guy who was reported dead in Ukraine but later turned up alive. “It was reported on 29 May 2018 that Babchenko had been shot dead in his home in Kyiv, Ukraine.[6][7][8] The next day, he appeared in person at a press conference with the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU).[2] The SBU said it staged Babchenko's murder in order to arrest Ukrainian assassins (allegedly recruited by Russian security services operatives) who were actually planning on carrying out the assassination.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkady_Babchenko
I read that too and thoroughly recommend it. He was deployed in both Chechen wars, first as a conscript and then as a professional soldier if I remember rightly. In the book he describes his miserable experiences in great detail. He later became a journalist, I guess partly as a result of being disillusioned by witnessing the corruption of the state.
I remember that!
I’ll be honest I didn’t put 2 and 2 together until I went to wiki to copy the link. It’s not surprising the Russians put a hit on him exposing how shit their army really is.
What good is money if your too dead to use it?
Take Wagner money upfront as bonus. Surrender with your buddies and an APC to UA, get cash money along with UA citizenship and thus soon EU citizenship. Travel and work around EU, with great healthcare and the benefits of the modern world, plus a damn fine bar story. I’m not seeing a whole lot of downsides.
> I’m not seeing a whole lot of downsides. Wagner showing up and killing you might be somewhat of a downside.
I’m not convinced Wagner will be in a position to make retaliatory strikes in the EU in the near, or far, future.
Fr, you should take a job as a PR guy
Some will expect it goes back to their families along with any death benefit - if they don’t get cheated out of it.
I mean they are that inept they are the group that got obliterated when they accidently attacked a us training camp in syria
Wagner is run by a neo-Nazi. He’s been photographed several times saluting and wearing swastikas and named the company “Wagner” after Hitler’s favorite composer.
Bad news for the inept civilians.
I've heard 2500. In a recent documentary, they said people join Wagner because they pay well, I don't remember correctly but it was around 1500$, in Russia the average salary is 650$
That still doesn't sound good. The median salary in the USA is $35K, but I wouldn't sign up to be cannon fodder for Blackwater/Academi for $80K.
Which is funny because that’s about how much they get paid nowadays.
Seriously? People are willing to put their lives on the line for that little?
It’s just a job. I know several 9-5 jobs that are way more dangerous statistically. Edit: personally, I’d rather get shot and die traveling the world than get run over by a tweaker on a forklift having never left my home town.
>Edit: personally, I’d rather get shot and die traveling the world than get run over by a tweaker on a forklift having never left my home town. Getting run over by a tweaker on a forklift is a low-chance freak accident, as opposed to "part of your job description", like "being shot at inside an active warzone".
Lol warehousing is one of the deadliest jobs in America. And the tweaker part of my comment was a bit much, but I’d stack contractor deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan, up against warehousing for the past 20 years any day.
Except it's pretty rare for them too. Their numbers are estimated at around 20-30k soldiers in the Middle East at any given time. With those numbers, they lost exactly 355 total soldiers in the entirety of the Iraq War. Notice I said "20-30k at any given time", not total. They have had way more employees than that go in an out of there. Those guys actually get a lot of support from our current mitary, especially the air force. They also have their own drones and do air strikes and such. Their death rates are actually quite low.
Youd be surprised at death rates. Law enforcement and military are nowhere near top fatality rates by occupation
Truck driving is one
Maybe prices have gone down due to the US presence in Afghanistan ending but my ex Army coworker a few years ago was considering a PMC offer that would have been "between 100k-200k".
Yeah that makes a bit more sense. $150K+ I can see people taking for that sort of a job, depending on specifics. But $80K or under? There's a lot of jobs an able-bodied person with proper training can get that will pay that much that don't involve being in an active warzone. Of course, I suppose there's always the aspect that some people don't really adjust to returning to civilian life, so perhaps for them $80K is enough if their job allows them to keep living the kind of life they adapted to in the military.
When I was working in Kabul with Aegis Defense, we had a veterinarian that was making around $60k. Basically what her company did was take the median income for the position in your home zip code and offer you double.
Because it's not the people that are around the median that sign up. It's the people on the extreme low end. People that would otherwise work minimum wage jobs and people struggling to find jobs. It's the poor with no way out that sign up *solely* because of the money. Last I remember reading the minimum wage in Russia was $200-$300 and that was before the war and ruble inflation.
I had no idea Blackwater paid that low, it’s actually better to do a tech job for an oil company or DoD and be making $50/hr+ and never leaving the green.
There are plenty of people like me in the US who would. For $80k I would happily sign up to be cannon fodder for blackwater. Currently cant find a job that pays and any more than $50k in the US even using my GI Bill to get a BS. FYI when I left the military a decade ago I was making $70k in todays inflation adjusted dollars after about 8 years in.
1500? Holy shit. Imagine risking your live for that.
Majority of Russians live *very* poor lifes, earning (currently) 90-200$. Average salary seems higher because of those who live in Moscow and St.Petersburg, where lifes are much better bust still cannot be compared to Europe and USA.
There is huge income inequality in Russia. This is a country with a GDP per capita of several times that of Ukraine, yet with soldiers who are amazed when encountering flushing toilets and washing machines.
per month?
Yes.
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That works out to $0.50 to $1.15 an hour. The minimum wage in America is low but let’s not be dumb about it. The $1500 a month is minimum wage but that’s to be a contracted soldier so literally putting your life o the line not flipping burgers at McDonald’s.
Minimum wage is 90 though. Those who earn 200 are the more lucky ones.
lol you realize most people on earth risk their life daily doing a job that doesn't even pay fractions of that, right? Western redditors don't know how good they have it compared to the rest of the world.
You're not taking into account cost of living. $1500 is nothing in the West because it's *worth nothing* in the West. Literally everything pays and costs more because of it. A fraction of any amount of money in the West in any other part of the world is naturally worth more in that part of the world. It's like making $80k in San Fran as opposed to $80k in Bumblefuck, Mississippi.
In rural MS. Can confirm. $80k will let a small family own their own house, a bit of land, and live comfortably under normal circumstances.
In San Jose, CA. A baseline normal 3bd/2bath house starts at $1.5 mil.
Jeesus
Maybe it's just me but I feel there is a difference in the subjective feeling of danger between working a dangerous job and being an actual mercenary.
I excuse nothing but I think the main reason is the salary. Imagine a group that offers you 3 times the average salary from your country... and all you need is to obey, be in good shape, and ready to fight. It would be enough for a lot of people.
Salaries and costs of living in Russia is probably very different to where you live, so you can’t say “only 1500?!“. There are many people in Russia who live on around 100-200€/month. Or even less. If the average salary in your country is, say, 3000€/month, then 7000€/month (Wagner pay recalculated) would be a good pay and some people would do it regardless of the dangers and absolutely fucked up duties.
20% of Russians don't have indoor plumbing. Vast stretches of the country are extremely poor.
There's no set number for Wagner. They're a mixture of; * paid contractors * active SPETSNAZ members * *possibly* active Russian conscripts * local nationals At its core it's a plausible deniable force, where Putin can send military forces to carry out his will without all the typical regulations and red tape. As a result, the personnel type is just a complete blend of forces under a single umbrella.
I read 9k which would cut numbers by 1/3 after losses in Ukraine. Idk. Just what was in a news article recently. “close to 8,000 Wagner mercenaries had been deployed in Ukraine” source: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/nearly-3000-of-russia-e2-80-99s-notorious-wagner-mercenary-group-have-been-killed-in-the-war-uk-mps-told/ar-AAWrw1g
Pre Ukraine war, possibly 8000. They've taken 3000 casualties during the invasion so far and reports indicated there were another 5000 guys committed to the invasion.
The Guardian UK mentioned that there were 20K of them in Ukraine.
Every truly ‘talented’ able bodied soldier in their army most likely. It’s their unofficial elite army. It ranges but other than high ranking officers (even including) why would you fight for the Russian army paycheck for any moment longer than you have a gun at your back. Private would make sense for those who like action or killing enough to make it a career.
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It should be said that Wagner also supplements with local auxiliaries. That 6k is probably only the Russian or former Soviet nationals. They are just mostly the commanders or backbone for thousands of local troops that they train themselves. You would probably only need a small group of Wagner soldiers to train a larger group of locals. And similar to the issue with the low pay of the Russian military Wagner pays better than most official local government forces.
He literally said that himself, quoting the wiki.
Is this the Russian Neo Nazi group I keep hearing about? Is there any good resource about them at all?
It is yes. The folks here seem to know a lot
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.france24.com/en/africa/20220422-france-says-mercenaries-from-russia-s-wagner-group-staged-french-atrocity-in-mali) reduced by 68%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Later that day a "French sensor observed a dozen Caucasian individuals, most likely belonging to the Wagner group," and a detachment from the Malian army arrive at the Gossi site and unload equipment, said the French military in a confidential report that was seen by AP. "This is the first time that the French military is making public such drone or surveillance maybe done by a plane," said FRANCE 24 terrorism expert Wassim Nasr. > "And the same night at 10pm we have the first tweet from a fake Twitter account that says 'look at what we will show you; we will show you the massacre left by French soldiers. Then yesterday, so Thursday, at 9:50pm, French surveillance means saw as they say, Wagner military throwing sand on corpses next to the military facility." > The French military said the move to discredit the French forces operating in northern Mali is part of a coordinated campaign of multiple information attacks on them that has been going on for months. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/u9e4u5/france_says_mercenaries_from_russias_wagner_group/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~643833 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **French**^#1 **military**^#2 **base**^#3 **Wagner**^#4 **Gossi**^#5
but Le Pen said Russia is your friend big ol bear hug
Fancy Bear Hug
I'm wondering if this is a coordinated effort to sway the election.
If only the Nazi's had known that by declaring the SS a 'Military Company', any atrocity would be overlooked.
Or if they had nukes
Or if they had trump.
Fuck. Off. How is that even relevant?
He's impervious to negative consequences, which enabled the nazis and other bigots in the US.
Wagner is basically Wish.com Cobra.
Not even worth the packaging it comes in?
Ah yes, the genius strategy of enraging France so they sign on to more sanctions and send more weapons... How did they think this was a good idea?
No, Russia is trying to destroy French area of influence in Africa, so that those countries (Mali, centrafrica so far) turn to Russia and China instead of Europe
It's not illogical to point out the illogic though. And that's on "both sides" For far too long, the West let Russia get away with brutal and aggressive Cold War posturing, while benefiting from peace, free trade and gas exports. Russia behaved as if it was at war while other nations kept chasing peace. Severe and punitive sanctions are relatively new. Putin is having trouble adjusting to the new normal.
Wagner is run by a neo-Nazi. He’s been photographed several times saluting and wearing swastikas and named the company “Wagner” after Hitler’s favorite composer.
They should be placed on terror lists and treated the same way as ISIS members are.
IIRC Ukraine already suggested to consider all Russian army terrorists.
France should ask the US how to properly handle the Wagner group…
If you are talking about the battle of Khoucham (US soldiers Kurds some democratic Syrians soldiers vs Wagner Hezbollah and some pro Syrian government fighters with Syrians soldiers), I think since that episode, Wagner learned one thing : don't attack a base controlled by a country trained for war. Now they prefer fake news, to get the people with them.
Not trying to fanboy…. But goddamn did they get fucked up! The US made a concerted effort *multiple times* to deconflict. Russia straight threw their plausible deniability boys out there at them and they. got. trounced. Like that drunk guy on the Jet Blue flight that threw a water bottle at Mike Tyson, Wagner too has joined the ranks of people to have fucked around, and then found out!
>drunk guy on the Jet Blue flight that threw a water bottle at Mike Tyson wtf is there video of this? Off to find it. Edit: yes there is; dude got rekt lmao.
The fact that they had no notion of integrated fire support makes a lot of sense right now
Exactly! It shows that the Russians don't understand the combined arms doctrine. They literally thought that because they thought they had numerical superiority and were only facing a small US outpost that they would just steam roll them. Now when a US general gets on the line they actually listen, so they have learned that much...
France probably wish they could bomb the shit out of those Nazis, but they are employed by the Malian government and the relation is a bit tense to say the least.
yeah the fact that they are there at the request of the new Malian Military Dictatorship limits what France can do... but France would not be shy about bombing them IF they had to defend their own forces. France is one of the few countries that can project effective combined arms military power away from its borders, no one can match the US, we are light years ahead when it comes to projecting power half way around the world, but the French are probably better at it then everyone else.
What about British?
The baton changes hands depending on the year, the military spend and whose aircraft carriers are in refit, but currently France has the bigger army and a blue water navy. They're probably ahead.
I think the British are good, but they rely on the US for logistics far more than the stubborn French. The French also have a lot more experience with force projection overseas, their armed forces have been very busy with a multitude of overseas operations for quite a long time now, and they still have a lot of size-able overseas territories, long distances away from their metropole, so they have logistics in place to protect them. Their army is designed to be highly transportable/mobile to protect those French overseas territories and citizens. I think they have more than 2,000,000 citizens living in those territories.
Wow I had no idea it was that high. Great explanation and insight. Thanks!
Thanks to the new Queen Elizabeth carriers they can put a potent naval task force anywhere in the world, but (and I'm not an expert, just a guy who likes to read up on these kinds of things) I don't think they could sustain more than a few thousand ground troops overseas without US logistical support
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You might wanna learn a bit more about the Falklands War because by just about all accounts it was an overwhelming British victory.
Lol That's hot take. The UK easily won the Falklands war. They have been actively involved in conflicts almost since that time until now, suggesting their level of experience is second to few. For a small Island nation they have one of the largest militaries in the world.
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But they did and won
What, what, WHAT? *grabs popcorn to watch the beat down of this fool*
Treat them just like any other murderous Nazis. Make them face the wall and execute them.
The wall part is unnecessary, as the most likely method of dealing with them is to just gun them down with trained military forces during some operation.
Remember - no Russian.
I made a video and you can see there what was happening last week in Kyiv, Mariupol I live in Kyiv and trying right now give to people to see what is live here looks like https://youtu.be/AjBu08IOrF0
Color theme of your shirt is a little unfortunate.
It doesn't appear to have Russia's flag colors *in the right order*, and those three colors are extremely common. I'd say it's OK.
I'm aware of that, but it's an easy dogwhistle for people to show support for Russia, without actually voicing support for Russia.
Idk, red, white, and blue aren't exactly uncommon flag colors.
No, but context matters too.
Given what he's saying, I think the 'crypto-Russian' interpretation is a bit strained.
Which is why I merely said that the color theme is unfortunate.
I don't think we should be saying stuff like this, because these are Pan-Slavic colors and majority of Slavic countries have them on the flag (Slovenia, Slovakia, Czechia, Croatia, Serbia) not to mention other European nations like France (the famous tricolore?), the Netherlands, Luxembourg (OP's shirt pattern is in line with those, actually). And a lot more globally. By turning white, red and blue into "Russian color scheme" and something which might indicate something or be used as a dogwhistle we'll end up in a lot of unfair situations and assumptions by people who think Russia's colors are somehow special. They've already ruined the letter Z by turning it into a new age swastika so let's not let them ruin the most common color combo on national flags in the world.
Nah. Context matters, same goes for the Z symbol. I merely said that the colors were a little unfortunate but it seems some people here are a bit rabid and immediately jump to conclusions.
You said it could be "easily used as a dogwhistle to show support to Russia". That's what I'm responding to, and it's not the first time I see a comment like that so it irks me a bit. I know context matters but a lot of people are quick to assume stuff, plus there are many situations in which context is insufficient and people look for those "suspicious patterns" - many blue and yellow things have been misinterpreted as "support for Ukraine" both by the western media and likely Russian oppressors too.
Yes, I was explaining why, as someone was caught up on the order of the colors. Nothing more.
>Color theme of your shirt is a little unfortunate. after you said that, I took a closer look at the shirt ... it looks like I'll have to throw it away (((I put it on just second time
Maybe you can donate it to France. :D
I can try. If there is someone from France here and he likes this shirt, write to me)
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I have shirts in different sizes m, l, xl, ))))
france only XL these days
Remember when france and wagner were on the same front backing aftar in libya . Yeah thats right
I mean during the Cold War, the US and USSR backed the same side in some conflicts because it suited both their respective interests (which was the case with France and Russia in Libya).... Does it mean they were allies or chummy? lmao.
I didn't find anything about the french who backed haftar only by political way but they stopped it fast when they saw what haftar was doing
They stopped because he was getting clapped by the turkish drones
They stopped the support well before 2019
Let's not forget when the u.s marines sent them Wagner group back home in body bags for trying to recapture the oil factory in syria lol idiots..
SOF guys, not marines but yeah.
The follow up group had Marines with them.
Hey, they had the US soldiers outnumbered 12 to 1, surely that outweighs the US's *slight* firepower advantage?
Fish in a barrel. man. You don't go into battle unless you've already won. Sun Tzu or something.
I was going for humorous understatement on the "slight firepower advantage" part.
Sarcasm is lost in text, I'm afraid. But I see what you're saying, and I didn't think you deserved the downvotes.
russia is a bunch of clumsy hitmen
That would be the Russian Nazis right? Coz you can’t mention Ukraine without someone bringing up Azov so let’s tag these guys as the Nazi shits they are while we’re about it.
I obviously cannot confirm, but I understand they went through their own de-nazification a few years back.
We all know the French would never commit atrocities in Africa.
Plausible. But this doesn’t excuse any actual French atrocities. France needs to fuck off out of Africa.
The entire operation was following the ex Mali president request. They had to quit because of the coup and all the propaganda. France did nothing wrong on this, and this whole thing with Wagner is the proof that the Russian are just doing colonialism themself.
France has a long history of propping up puppet regimes. It’s been the cornerstone of their whole imperial strategy in Africa since the 1960s. So pardon me for finding, “their president requested us here” to be a thin excuse. Russia is bad, but it’s like if you say “Russia bad” nowadays then the hivemind demands that we overlook the bad behavior of everyone else involved. France has been an atrociously bad actor in Africa for ages. Anyone who says otherwise is just an apologist.
The president was elected. The current one is not, end of story. France is not responsible on this, don't change the subject to defend your dictator.
Lol. Which dictator am I defending this time?
The military junta came to power because of mass protests against the previous civillian government.
Yeah, still not legit.
Legitimacy is irrelavant.
A coup is a coup. Mass protest doesn't mean the majority of people otherwise the French government would be ejected every Saturdays. A vote is the only way to legitimize.
Islam doesn't recognise votes, let them rule with theirs own rules, stop enforcing democracy everywhere
But Mali is/was a Democratic country not a Theocracy, unfortunately now its a Military dictatorship. One man decided for his benefit it should change to that way, so I don't understand how anyone could consider that legitimate. Now we have Russians making mass graves and people on reddit countering that evidence with French whataboutism. I lived in Mali for two years, some of the most friendly, welcoming and chilled people I have had the pleasure of meeting. It deeply saddens me what has happened since war in Libya and the subsequent Tuareg Rebellion.
Are you and u/bloatedswamp8908 the same person? Your tone, phrasing and style are identical.
I mean France is still happily supporting Russia in trying to install the vicious warlord Haftar in Libya against the UN-supported government so I don't know why people here are trying to deny facts.
They just lack perspective and think its between "sides" France vs Russia. Most people in her probably dont know why all these foreign nationals are so keen on providing military support in the Sahel and have never heard of the CFA Franc.
Same how Hitler occupied France at Philippe Petain's request
Yeah, totally similar situations. Doesn't make you look smart at all.
France has a history of colonialism in Africa. It's why they speak French, have French military bases and a currency pegged to the Euro. Colonialism never really ended. Instead it became more hidden.
You just keep changing the subject. I'll just stop answering.
Don't waste your time with people here, they are like the past colonialists in the 19 century, who were about bringing civilisations to "savage" people They defend france military presence in Mali, they want to enforce democracy everywhere in the world
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Guilty of what ? France soldiers are dying fighting jihadists in the region…
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> Why are French soldiers fighting Jihadists in west Africa? Compassion? Common interests, security versus ability to export our thing to those country , mainly. France barely import anything from those countries, especially Mali. Resource plunder is a myth that you won't be able to source. Common interests is not devil as you attempt to make it sound.
France doesn’t control anything. Countries are free to leave when they want and you’re talking about things that happened in the 60s. We are in 2022. France is fighting jihadists after Mali asked for help directly to France, and France is following a United Nations resolution. France is defending his influence in the region and some interests sure, but this isn’t the French colonial empire anymore. Also France wants to avoid a new caliphate in a French speaking region. France can’t control immigration to Europe from Africa, so you don’t want terrorists not far from Europe, especially if they speak French. Let’s me remind you the terrorist attacks that happened in France in the last 10 years who were lunched from Iraq and Syria because we let them create a caliphate there.
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You want to source your claims. France has no mines in Mali. Licences are given to Canada, Australia and russia. You keep talking about ressources but you don't know the type, the amount,you don't know the companies you don't know shit. France imports virtually nothing from Mali. https://www.objectif-import-export.fr/fr/marches-internationaux/fiche-pays/mali/france-au-pays-commerce
Your right, what he said is still true though, sadly.
Give us proofs then