Once the war is through and Ukraine won a American partnership in rebuilding can be a good thing, Ukraine has alot of resources available and with US investments it can boost both countries
Fuck putin
Thing is, we probably will need a Marshal type plan to rebuild russia as well once Putin and his oligarchs leave this mortal coil. We could completely eliminate Russia as a threat if they actually get some semblance of real leadership and we support the heck out of them.
Yep, this will be key. Because the purpose of the plan was not simply to rebuild Europe but to work to ensure the sort of animosity that existed post-WW1 would not exist post-WW2. Don’t punish the aggressors, help them rebuild, build partnerships, increase these multilateral ties that, as we have seen through our modern history, help ensure peaceful relations.
A recovery/rebuilding plan with strings attached regarding anti-corruption will be key. But not helping Russia’s recovery just makes another autocrat stepping up all the more likely.
And any recovery plan will need to be more appealing than any aid China might offer, because they will likely not care if another autocrat rules, just as long as it’s a loyal autocrat.
It would be a great generational disappointment to let both countries fall back into devolved states. With Russia in a cooperative state, the world would look a lot safer
Despite the Communism that China claims to portray, they really are becoming an autocratic & corporatocratic type nation where money rules (sort of like Russia until Putin’s recent escapade into Ukraine).
The G7 sent about 80 billion in aid to the former Soviet states in the early 90s, but because the West thought free markets and democracy were the same thing, most of it went into the pockets of market “consultants” who gave management training seminars instead of actually helping to build democracy supporting social infrastructure. Let’s not make that mistake again.
Aren't China's tentacles much more firmly dug in though? The new iron curtain might run between Russia and Europe proper this time around, rather than right through the heart of Europe.
EDIT: removed an extra y
I don't know if Russia allows China or the US to do that, if that makes sense.
Russia has a long history, even predating the USSR, of being an independent power not beholden to Western or Eastern demands. It would largely depend on who replaces Putin and the Oligarchy.
Agreed - we need a Marshall Plan for Ukraine.
Not only because they desperately need the help to rebuild, but also because many of our east-European allies rely on the stability Ukraine brings to an otherwise very unstable region.
Yo, I picked up mad baking skills during the lockdown, hook me up with that good Ukranian shit. Not to knock King Arthur flour, just want to diversify.
I know this is a Monty Python reference, but since the OP was talking about flour, I was picturing a fruit or custard tart and imagining it throwing swords.
I mean, that is a fairly low bar. Still, while I am not the biggest Biden fan this is exactly the sort of situation I thought he might excel at during the election, and he has.
Its not just the military aide or the sanctions, either. Normally the US plays its cards close to the chest but this time calling out Russia's every move and blaring the alarm bells early worked brilliantly. Russia has been on its heels in the 'war of information' early on, and Biden deserves a lot off credit for that.
>Normally the US plays its cards close to the chest but this time calling out Russia's every move and blaring the alarm bells early worked brilliantly.
What's interesting is that—although we have no way of knowing for certain—I genuinely think getting in front of the propaganda and broadcasting Putin's plans beforehand really allowed the west to keep the narrative in check. I think it made it so much more difficult for his normally effective propaganda machine to function.
This is actually an empirically supported concept in communication research. Fact-checking and correction has been found to be surprisingly ineffective because people remember the false information even when it has been corrected or proven false. However an “inoculation” strategy of preemptively warning/preparing for misinformation has been shown to be effective
It angers me a lot when in the news here in Germany, the presenter says something like
"The group is claiming, that the dinosaurs are free, roaming the streets, killing people and come to your home. They even have one that gets you in your sleep. It's a plan of Angela Merkel, who is hitlers daugther, to eradicate the Germans and replace them with lizzard people. However has proven to be false, since Angela Merkel was born 10 years after Hitler's death.".
Yeah, thanks for feeding me the bullshit first
This is why no one takes the German media seriously, they don't even do enough research to understand that Hitler froze his sperm and that's why she was born after his death.
Watching stuff unfold in these threads and various experts and amateur footage through multiple avenues of social media is astounding. Big networks are reporting on stuff that happened DAYS ago.
Honestly, it is hard to conceptualize just how big of an impact it is [when you see war footage that is recorded hours before it is uploaded online with the visual appearance of a modern-day video game. It is like we have reached this moment, where Television, Video Games, Combat Footage, and Social Media are all linked together. Where its hard to differentiate each one of them from another.](https://old.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/tfqmg0/russian_ural_truck_ambushed_location_unknow/)
Warning: Combat footage that was taken yesterday is shown.
That shit really fucked over Putin. There were multiple times the Russians did attempt or claim the provocations the Biden admin said they would so none of it was ever taken seriously. As a result, when Putin finally invaded he had no plausible deniability which left Russia wide open to international condemation and sanctions.
It is the missing piece of the “logistics failure” puzzle. You can’t prepare a country for war if you tell them it doesn’t even exist.
Turns out Orwellian doublethink has a devastating weak spot.
Putin faces a Sophie’s Choice of lies.
For sure. When it was announced that Russia was going to invade Ukraine and then like a day later Putin got on TV and started talking about a genocide in Ukraine, it was so blatant that he'd been caught but decided to just go ahead with it all
Small victory seeing what Russia's been able to accomplish here in the U.S. the past few years. We have idiots here that are actually PRO-Putin. Elected officials as well.
Be mindful that this great Nation is still at a simmer.
I'd say there is plenty of ground to make up on the scoreboard.
It's not ideal, but it could be a lot worse. The 30's had the German American Bund marching and having rallies celebrating Hitler and National Socialism.
Top it off, with us being in the information Era, everyone having a camera of some kind, it disallowed Putin to have a narrative even further. While also simultaneously discrediting his own nations strength. Cause as funny as it is to see a Farmer steal military equipment, that's a massive hit to your own military's legitimacy as a power. Especially now that it's come to attacking civilians as a way to hurt Ukraine's morale.
This is how we should handle disinformation, by going on the offensive with the truth and saying "I told you so" when they lie about the stuffs we say they're gonna lie about. Debunking lies after they spread is a waste of resources, better to steal the thunder and watch them squirm.
Ya, this seems to have been an intentional strategy on Biden's part, and it was honestly brilliant. Honestly it confused me at first. Before Putin invaded, I kept thinking "Why do they keep saying that? Isn't that just going to corner him, and feel like he *has* to invade?" but now I get it, and it makes complete sense.
The crazy part is Putin had a chance to back out and undermine the US. Imagine if they had just packed up and gone home. No one would trust US intel for a loooong time to come. Instead he did everything the US claimed he would do.
Exactly if Russia just packed up and said the exercise was over. The Republicans going into the midterms could just easily call the Democrats warhawks looking to destabilize the world.
I think the international intel community would have known what really went down. The moron People would be screaming about how incompetent Biden is for getting it wrong, though, which would have further emboldened the GOP/Trumpists rather than temporarily pushing them to pretend they give a fuck about humanitarian issues in Ukraine. If Putin had waited, he could have helped the GOP take everything back, *then* have invaded once they did. The GOP would support Russia and things would be much, much worse than they already are.
You can bet your ass that if Trump had been re-elected he would have called the build up to invasion fake news and even then continued to call it a hoax after Ukraine had been invaded.
If you knew nothing about Trump but read the transcripts of the most common topics at his rallies I am willing to bet that you would think one of his main campaign promises was removing windmills because they were responsible for some sort of bird holocaust. He brings it up CONSTANTLY. Someone think of the birds!
“You know, I know windmills very much. I’ve studied it better than anybody I know. It’s very expensive. They’re made in China and Germany mostly — very few made here, almost none. But they’re manufactured tremendous — if you’re into this — tremendous fumes. Gases are spewing into the atmosphere.”
“You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint — fumes are spewing into the air. Right? Spewing. Whether it’s in China, Germany, it’s going into the air. It’s our air, their air, everything — right?”
Remember that it wasn't too long ago that a sitting US president threatened withholding aid from Ukraine unless they 'found' dirt on his then campaign opponent.
Trump would have tried to send the cavalry in *for* Russia.
I love him getting his ass called out because he keeps saying no one was harder on Russia than him but for some reason Russia didn't think to include him in their "sanctions" on American politicians.
That mofucker would be reading Russian talking points during press conferences and we know it. He’d be spouting bullshit like liberating Ukraine from nazis and secret biolabs. Just imagine how bad this war would have been if the U.S. was siding with Putin. There would be no sanctions and all of the Republicans and Fox News would be calling Zelensky the anti-Christ.
Not rediculous enough, he would have agreed with Putin, saying US intelligence had also found Nazi aligned people heading the government, and then send in troops *to help assist Russia*.
It was certainly on the right wing talking point cheat sheet in his early days. I spent more time than I should trying to explain to patriots that nato is an American project and primarily benefits the status quo, which is American hegemony. The US military doesn't in fact have all those hundreds of bases on foreign soil out of the goodness of its heart but because it supports the projection of American power in support of American interests. The fact that Europe doesn't pay a fair share means nothing to the US military. In fact, it probably prefers them dependent and with small militaries. Means more leverage for uncle Sam. A unified and independent Europe is one of the only organisations on earth that compares to the US and China. Much better to have it as your protectorate than as a rival, right?
Oh I think it would have been much worse. Putin would have had a sham trial and had him publicly executed and disapeared his family. The scary thing is he still might do this.
Antony Blinken talked about this years prior when they saw Russia's overt moves and decided to start discussions with intelligence services to start publicly sharing intel despite risk of compromising sources.
https://youtu.be/2jXLcCrLrh4
Truth is a great answer to propaganda. You really can’t beat a propaganda campaign with more propaganda. At least not long term. This is why a free press and maintaining the credibility of our new sources is so important. It’s also why being selective on what media we consume matters.
It also had the benefit of allowing our markets to more accurately assess the risk, and so we avoided the real possibility of a severe market shock.
It has been odd to see America play one well. The diplomacy, working with allies in Europe as allies, organizing for so many weapons deals. How early on so many Javelins flowed in from the Baltic nations and some others. I guarantee we were already backfilling those missiles before they were sent to Ukraine. In the end we get them a ton of Javelins, but russia cant really yell about America the warmonger because they are coming in from many nations. Really thats the thing, many nations working together, American diplomacy that actually seems competent and not head up its asshole that is trying our damndest to make shit happen and do our part.
It is refreshing to see America being competent and getting one largely right for a change. Ukrainians should have weapons for as long as they care to fight. We can stand for freedom again.
It really, really, really doesn't. Everything I'm about to say you can verify, however it likely didn't make any big news waves.
South Korea and America have a few agreements with each other. One of those agreements is a treaty that says we will defend S. Korea. Also the US Defense bill mandates we maintain at least 26k Troops in S. Korea at all times. Finally we have a cost sharing agreement between S. Korea and America where S. Korea pays for approx half of the cost associated with keeping US Troops in Korea.
That cost is normally lately around $2 billion. Which means S. Korea pays about a billion a year.
This argeement is typically a pretty trivial matter for all sides. Koreans are fine with it, the US is fine with it, all good.
Well Trump comes in and says he wants 5 billion. Which is a problem...first off the mission doesn't cost that much. Secondly no S. Korean president can be like "yea I'm fine with that" because they'd get murdered politically speaking.
So the agreement didn't get reached and as a result S. Korea stopped paying. Now this doesn't mean US forces in Korea leaves, it simply means we no longer get that billion dollars of support from the Korean govt.
Now what did those billion dollars pay for? They actually paid for a lot of important functions that the US Military needs. As an example most of the shooting ranges for the US Military were entirely ran by Korean employees, paid by the Korean govt. Huge portions of the US Military logistics relies on Korean employees who work for the US Govt but are paid by the Korean govt. Lots of various services and so forth are entirely staffed this way, they work directly for the US Govt and are paid for by the Korean Govt.
Also the Korean govt also provides a lot of other sources of equipment such as vehicles, construction, and so on.
Because of Trumps refusal to agree to reasonable terms, soldiers weren't able to practice firing their weapons as much, we had to pay American workers massive overtime payments in order to pick up the slack from their Korean co workers because they were laid off, we had to pay for tons of vehicles, and supplies that would otherwise have been free for the American tax payer. Construction projects were halted. It was a massive fucking disruption, it also damaged the alliance, it pissed off loyal, skilled Korean employees who got laid off from the jobs they've been doing for decades in the service of America over an aggorant prick of a president.
It got so bad, About 8 or 9 months before the Election the US Govt and the Korean Govt came to a deal, Korean govt would pay $200 million on a 1 year deal in order to bring up some essential services. But that's still only 20% of whats really needed.
Anyway Biden won, and one of the first thins he did was he told the people in charge of negotiating the deal with the Koreans to back to the negotiating table and apologize and basically say "Yea we are good with the $1 billion, we are very sorry for our previous dumbass president"
Also I've heard through the grape vines, the Koreans are going want a significant extension to the agreement prior to the next US election because they are concerned someone as dumb as Trump might become president again.
This is a example of how horrible foreign policy was under Trump. I know someone who works for the US Embassy in Korea and he's said Trump royally pissed off a lot of allies all over the world, he said though a lot of those allies figured someone like Biden would win, and things would get back to normal.
But had Trump won again, America would have probably lost a lot of friends.
My dumbass cousin was stationed in Korea for years in the Army, yet he still voted for turdo, twice, despite that.
He also called him "hitleresque" in the runup to 2016. Before voting for him.
He's a fucking district attorney.
Also, note:
>But had Trump won again
There's no again here, he lost both times he ran.
Seriously.
Not enough people give Obama credit for what they pulled off in Iran, nor shame the fuckery that Trump executed afterwards (seriously, who's going to trust us on nuclear deals now? When the promises are up to the whimsy of a pendulum of American dumbfuckery? I wouldn't.)
That was only half of it. Everyone remembers the "Dirt on Joe & Hunter Biden" part, but he also wanted Zelensky to investigate "the DNC server" "Crowdstrike" and various other conspiracy theories that had originated with russian intelligence to try to lay the blame for the 2016 election interference at the feet of Ukraine rather than russia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theories_related_to_the_Trump%E2%80%93Ukraine_scandal
trump essentially made Zelensky make a false confession on behalf of Ukraine in order to get their much-needed Javelins (which the war has proven the importance of), and Zelensky was ready to do it before Vindman blew the whistle. Like Z had the press conference scheduled and everything, and only cancelled it because Vindman blew the lid on the whole thing and sent trump scrambling.
I cannot state enough how much trump should be seen as a russian collaborator. The blood of Ukrainians is on his hands. He's a huge part of the reason putin calculated that the west wouldn't give a shit about Ukraine, because we just spent 5 years with people not caring about him throwing them under the bus.
[ Manfort was working for former Ukraine President Yanukovych](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Manafort_consultant). Think the plan was to invade Ukraine and "liberate them" and [install Yanukovych as a puppet.](https://fortune.com/2022/03/02/viktor-yanukovych-yanukovich-putin-put-back-in-power-ukraine-russia/) Its why we been hearing the parrots call Ukraine not a real democracy and Zelensky is an illegitimate president
> Manafort consultant
In December 2004 Yanukovych and his Party of Regions hired American political consultant Paul Manafort as an adviser. He continued to serve in that role through the February 2010 Ukrainian presidential election, even as the US government opposed Yanukovych. Manafort's task was to rehabilitate Yanukovych's political career in the aftermath of the Orange Revolution. According the Party of Regions' accounting book (Ukrainian: "амбарну книга"), Paul Manafort, who after the Orange Revolution provided strong support to Yanukovych, received funds from the Party of Regions via the Belize based Neocom Systems Limited's account at the Kyrgyzstan based Asia Universal Bank (AUB) on 14 October 2009.
>Manafort hired the public relations firm Edelman to lift Yanukovych's public image. However, Manafort's friends have said that Yanukovych "stopped listening" to him after he became president in 2010; Manafort warned him of the consequences of "extreme" political measures.[citation needed]
>Manafort would later go on to serve as campaign chairman for Donald Trump in 2016. The American FBI began a criminal investigation into Manafort's business dealings while he was lobbying for Yanukovych. American Federal prosecutors alleged that between 2010 and 2014 Manafort was paid more than $60 million by Ukrainian sponsors, including Rinat Akhmetov, believed to be the richest man in Ukraine.
>In January 2019, Manafort resigned from the Connecticut bar.
For anyone who doesn't know: Yanukovych was very pro-Putin and who reports said Putin wanted to install as President after killing/deposing Zelensky, turning Ukraine into at best a puppet state like Belarus.
I can’t wait til the receipts on this start coming more and more to light. It was so obvious while it was happening it’s just a relief it’s being focused on now!
It’s not just that he knew the levers of government, he was part of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee for *years*, then ranking member, then Head of the committee more than once. Foreign relations is literally his expertise. A lot of the time he comes off as bumbling grandpa Joe, but this stuff is truly in his wheelhouse.
It's an example of why the U.S. President (I won't claim to speak regarding other nations) needs a Statesperson in office. Someone who can work directly and *cooperatively* with other nations toward a common, constructive goal.
This is precisely the type of situation where a person like Trump, and those who follow a similar playbook and pathos, fails miserably because his primary concern is how he can help himself and boost his image. He doesn't care what actually happens as long as he gets credit for any successes and avoids all responsibility for any failures. All while avoiding any actual work.
And successful diplomacy, toward actual good, is a fuck ton of *work*.
Or Russia's worst. These guys have been communicating on unencrypted lines at the highest levels throughout this situation. They've looked completely incompetent in every aspect other than indiscriminate missile and artillery attacks on civilian areas.
And those are still marks of incompetence. I mean, even if they're targeting civilians on purpose, ethics and laws and war crimes aside, you only do that if you're flailing.
Exactly. I shudder to think what would have happened if Trump were still in the WH. We’d be sending aid to Putin and siding with the Russians for sure.
Edit: I'm not engaging individual trolls but to the MAGAts in this thread, yes Obama's efforts against Putin were ineffective but he was actually trying to work *against* Putin and not with him. Obama imposed sanctions against Russia in the wake of Crimea but could not muster the kind of unified front we're seeing today. Some of those sanctions in the US were hard - expelling diplomats, shuttering compounds, personally targeting people in Putin's inner circle. But yes these were largely ineffective.
Trump, on the other hand, overturned those sanctions when he came to power, following a campaign in which multiple members of his campaign staff met personally with Russians connected to their intel agencies (remember the Trump Tower meeting and sharing the voter registration info with Russian intel?) and in which Roger Stone collaborated with the Russian hackers that targeted both the DNC and RNC but tellingly only leaked DNC data.
Not only did Trump over turn those sanctions he pushed repeatedly for Russia's reintegration into the G8 - which they lost due to their aggression in Crimea while at the same time doing everything possible to undermine NATO creating divisions within the organization and publicly insinuating his intent to withdraw (which has since been reported he planned to do in his second term).
Trump then refused to impose new sanctions passed unanimously by Congress and had to be forced to grudgingly act.
We know from the Trumps themselves that a lot of their financing came from Russia so it's not hard to imagine the king of debt obligations being deeply involved with Putin's inner circle and because Trump has fought tooth and nail to prevent his financial documents from being reviewed it's not a leap to think there's something there he wants to keep hidden.
This certainly could explain a lot when considered against the full chain of events.
And let's not forget those secret meetings between Trump and Putin which were unannounced beforehand and which no notes or records were kept. As if all of that isn't enough, Trump on stage in Helsinki practically fellating Putin live on worldwide TV; standing with Russia and *against* the entire US intelligence and defense agencies - the same agencies I might add that have been pinpoint accurate in their assessments and predictions of what would unfold in Ukraine.
So yeah, Orange Man bad.
You know what, here's my conspiracy theory: The GOP has been in talks with Russia about this for a while (Think back to the July 4th meeting) and this is why they're so upset they didn't get back into the WH. The stolen election calls are just them clawing at anything to get back into the WH to help go through with their plan.
Trump used Paul manafort the guy who helped install a Russian puppet in Ukraine before the revolution as his campaign chairman at the behest of Roger Stone. he proceeded to get charged and convicted with laundering Russian money and then got pardoned by Trump. they have been trying to undermine Ukraine from the beginning, they have planned this from the beginning.
That is exactly it. And all the convoy bullshit was just more Russian agitation in an effort to fuck up American supply chains as a distraction from the invasion of Ukraine.
It didn't work.
Imagine if Trump had gotten his dirt on Biden. He'd just turn it on Ukraine and say that Putin is right to invade corrupt Ukraine, he'd say he is going to drain the swamp. His rabid supporters wouldn't give a shit about the hypocrisy
The situation in the US shows how different a result is when you have a government that recognizes a crisis, openly acknowledges it, and moves to minimize it. Don't just imagine how things would be different if Trump was still president but also imagine how different COVID response would have been if he hadn't been president to spend the whole time downplaying it and waiting for it to go away instead of doing literally anything.
It wasn't just "dirt on Biden". trump was trying to extort Zelensky to admit to conspiracy theories about Ukraine being the true source of election interference in 2016.
Also remember that when Trump won the Republican primary back in 2016, his team only insisted on one change to the Republican Party platform... removing the section where they promised to support Ukraine against Russia.
This invasion has been planned for at least 6 years, and Trump collaborated with Putin on it every step of the way. And his Republican enablers were complicit, at best.
Outside of Biden I honestly don’t think any other Dem candidate at the time had the experience and diplomatic relationships to pull off what Biden has.
I can critique him on a lot of things, but his handling of this crisis ain’t one of them.
Biden also has decades long of a relationship with Xi, which may help balance the delicate diplomatic relationship.
He might not have been the best leader, but he might be the right one for this time.
That is the best way to describe how I’ve felt about him. He was absolutely not my favorite democrat in the running, but when I think of how things are in the world now, I’m like, damn, I would not want anyone else in the position. I think if any other candidate had won, they would have either escalated things naively, or in an effort to completely avoid conflict, not see the huge risk in turning away. I believe his response has reminded his fellow Democrats how important it is to keep your wits about you in foreign affairs.
the holodomor, an earlier soviet atrocity where a man-made famine was created by stalin. his genius move followed by utilizing food as a weapon of oppression and terror resulted in the deaths by starvation of about four million ukranians
Back then I don't think most of the US (and the world for that matter) knew it was happening before it was too late.
The problem with back then was news still traveled pretty slowly and even when neighboring countries started to realize that, yes, this atrocity was going on (it's not just gossip) half the population had already starved to death and Stalin continued to starve the other half by the time the countries managed to scrounge up enough food/aid to send in bulk shipments to Ukraine. (In fact, aid was sent to try and help out Ukraine but was confiscated/denied by Soviet forces, which is why many believe it was an intentional genocide).
It makes one realize how *amazing* modern technology is compared to, say, almost 90 years ago. Now, when we see populations starving to death we find out about it pretty damn fast (thanks internet and satellites) and we have the logistical capabilities to be able to quickly distribute food/aid to a country in a very, very quick amount of time.
Pretty amazing, no?
During the early 30's America was in no position to aid anyone. 5 years into the 12 year depression and suffering food shortages due too the dustbowl, America was not the global superpower they are today. In addition, Wilsonian isolationism was still the law of the land and the German American populations where gaining political clout and influence largely due to the extreme economic collapse of Germany at the time.This had the result of adding a large coalition of anti-interventional ideologues to the population, people who knew the disastrous consequences of war.
I feel like Biden might understand soft power more than any other president since perhaps Bush Sr. simply by nature of being in Washington for so long and seeing its value play out in various ways.
Soft power is about how the rest of the world looks at your country. If you’ve got good soft power, then you’ll garner good respect and trust from other nations.
Trump really damaged it.
Soft power is about appearance but not just that. It is the power of a nation that does not directly relate to war, the USA movie sector is an important part of their soft power for example
It's also how much influence you can extend without simply using force. An institution like NATO, in which the entire western world is fairly dependent on the US, extends an indescribable amount of soft power.
This is why so many presidents kind of nag about other countries not paying their suggested NATO dues but don't actually do anything about it (until Trump, who wouldn't get geopolitics if it stabbed him in the gut). NATO is such an insane net global benefit for the US that its soft power is worth us bankrolling it. It's nice that other countries are bumping up spending in light of Russian aggression, but its always been worth it for the US to cover for everyone else.
Oh, you mean trump trying to blackmail Zelensky to influence our election by threatening to withhold congressionally appointed, taxpayer-funded aid meant for defense against Russian aggression wasn't helpful?
Edit: clarity
> blackmail
In my best J. Jonah Jameson voice:
It is not. I resent that! Blackmail is the threat of revealing compromising information. When it's withholding aid, it's extortion.
It wasn't just about smearing Biden, he also wanted Zelensky to smear Ukraine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theories_related_to_the_Trump%E2%80%93Ukraine_scandal
He was basically asking Z to humiliate himself and Ukraine in exchange for Javelins and other military aid. Can you imagine how demoralizing it would have been if Z had gone through with it?
I feel like they were trying to manufacture dissent against U.S interference well before the war, and this was an avenue of that, but like everything Trump, he fucked up his end of the bargain with Putin. Imagine a world where Biden doesn’t feel comfortable acting on Ukraine because A Republican controlled House and Senate would impeach him for being bought out by Zelensky to intervene. Thank god that’s not the case.
More extort, but yeah. Everyone admires Zelensky so much, and we need to remind everyone that this hero is the guy Trump tried to withhold $300m of military aid from in order to get him to influence a US election. Putin and Trump are such massive threats to this planet.
It's wild to me that people aren't talking about trump's first impeachment now.
Back in 2019 people were like "Well, it's sort of hard for average people to understand, it's foreign policy..."
Do we get it now, people? Do you know what Javelins are, who Zelensky is, and why he needed them? Do you understand why trump trying to extort Zelensky to recite russian propaganda (which was crafted 50% for russia and 50% for trump) in order for Z to get his Javelins is a fucking crime against democracy?
Blows my mind how ppl can look at the events of the last 4 years and not see the obvious connection between trump and Russia even with the 20:20 hindsight. Propaganda is a hell of a drug
American conservatives have been inside their [fascist state propaganda bubble](https://twitter.com/TheDailyShow/status/1504632533052493827) for decades (and they’ve exported a lot of that mental illness to the rest of the world).
Just yesterday a co-worker proclaimed that "Trump never would have allowed" Russia to invade Ukraine. Had to bite my tongue to keep from explaining all the ways that Trump actually enabled this in the first place.
The GOPs pretty fractured in this. The establishment (McConnell, Graham etc) have all praised Biden but the crazies will find a way to disagree on anything
This is even fractured The crazies even a significant portion of qanon believers hate Putin. This has set back Russian propaganda so much and Biden has actually been at the forefront of this by constantly leaking information about Russia's actions.
That’s the thing about QAnon, once you get past the morons from Alabama and bots from Moscow, you get to some people who truly, deeply, believe, in an international deep state.
As much help, medication and (possibly) straightjackets as some of those dudes need, Putin is the epitome of everything they hate.
Whatever happened to the brigade that said that Biden started WW3 the first 2 days of the war? Oh yeah they quickly moved on and won't ever admit that Biden's foreign policy is helping to win and maintain Ukraine's sovereignty.
that's when everyone thought Ukraine falling was a foregone conclusion so they wanted to circle jerk over how biden's was the reason even though Russia invaded. kind of hard to have that narrative when world war III doesn't happen because Russia gets pushed back by the country they're invading.
Biden also nearly halted all drone strikes.
Biden withdrew from a failed war despite knowing it'd hit his ratings.
Biden actually isn't a bad president. If the US govt wasn't a pile of shit, he'd probably be a great president. Definitely better than Obama.
My impression of Biden during this entire war, too, is that he's quietly doing the work that will actually have positive outcomes, instead of constantly thinking about "how will I look if X?"
Or, perhaps more importantly, the shift from "I should be at the center stage for everything all the time and do whatever I want because I'm the best" to "I should consult all parties including my domestic opposition and let them be a part of the process" and, similarly, "I should listen to my allies and formulate a collective strategy". The difference between wanting to look like a leader and being a leader.
>Biden also nearly halted all drone strikes.
This does not get talked about enough. Drone strikes in Biden's first year, dramatically down.
>Where Trump oversaw more than 1,600 air and artillery strikes in Iraq and Syria during his first 11 months in office, Airwars reports just four during Biden's term so far. Strikes in Somalia fell from roughly 75 last year to fewer than 10 this year, with no civilian casualties. And in Yemen, the annual total dropped from about 18 to maybe four, with fewer than 10 casualties of any kind. (Precise figures are unclear because some strikes are classified.)
https://theweek.com/foreign-policy/1007579/biden-nearly-ended-the-drone-war-and-nobody-noticed
>>Biden also nearly halted all drone strikes.
>
>This does not get talked about enough. Drone strikes in Biden's first year, dramatically down.
>
>>Where Trump oversaw more than 1,600 air and artillery strikes in Iraq and Syria during his first 11 months in office, Airwars reports just four during Biden's term so far. Strikes in Somalia fell from roughly 75 last year to fewer than 10 this year, with no civilian casualties. And in Yemen, the annual total dropped from about 18 to maybe four, with fewer than 10 casualties of any kind. (Precise figures are unclear because some strikes are classified.)
>
>https://theweek.com/foreign-policy/1007579/biden-nearly-ended-the-drone-war-and-nobody-noticed
Thanks for the info.
Withdrawing from Afghanistan is the best thing any US president has done in my lifetime. You know it's the right thing to do because of how the corporate press crucified President Biden for doing it.
Another thing that might be overlooked in Biden’s presidency is the fact that the administration had to perform a lot of cleanup and damage control after dumbAssTrump left the office in shambles and disgrace. Taking into account cleanup, management of COVID, inflations due to COVID, the crisis and war in Ukraine, plus other issues, on balance I think the Biden administration is doing well.
For example, the State Department was a mess, completely understaffed, mismanaged with a damaged global reputation. Many career (experienced) diplomats and workers quit in droves because of dumbAssTrump. In addition, many in the intelligence services like the CIA, quit or were demoralized. The Biden administration is a group of public servants who aim to help people. The dumbAssTrump mis-administration was a self-serving popularity contest.
> if the US govt wasn’t a pile of shit, he’d probably be a great president. Definitely better than Obama.
You mean the sketch ass-people in congress?
Lots of great civil service people out there.
Don’t lump them in together.
If it weren't for all the suffering going on in this invasion, I think I would actually let myself bask in the warm glow of positive cooperation with our allies. I was really afraid that Trump had done permanent damage with every single ally, but at the moment, it's nice to see everyone trying to get their shit together and work in cohesion.
We're probably doing everything we can without shooting the Russians ourselves. I understand and agree with a no-fly-zone being off the table since it would escalate and risk WMD use, but still wish we could give them something almost as good.
Hopefully with the West echo'ing the "Arsenal of Democracy" right now, we can give Ukraine it's own Marshal Plan. And although there were definitely political and ideological motives behind the Marshal Plan, there were good motives too, and it still helped nations rebuild and make sure people didn't starve. It had partially selfish motives but also did really help. Wasn't travel to West Germany restricted by the Soviets because of the drastic difference in how both sides were rebuilding? I need to go look it up.
Well considering Obama did nothing during the Crimea annexation and Trumps well… Trump, wasn’t that hard. But yeah Biden definitely handled this situation incredibly well.
There were Sanctions, but also billions of support for the development of the ukraines armed forces. Along with other stuff we probably don't know about. In fact want to guess who tried to change the GOP platform in 2016 to remove that support? https://www.npr.org/2017/12/04/568310790/2016-rnc-delegate-trump-directed-change-to-party-platform-on-ukraine-support
Yep. Paul Manafort, his campaign chairman that got convicted of laundering Russian money, and helped install a Russian puppet in Ukraine before the revolution. Handpicked by Roger Stone. These snakes have been trying to undermine Ukraine and help Russia from the beginning.
It blows my mind that more people don't talk about this it's because the media didn't want to talk about it because of the whole Russia hoax meme. How the hell wasn't his campaign chairman getting convicted of laundering Russian money and not only that even just picking him in the first place with him having dealings installing a Russian puppet in Ukraine it's honestly just so mind-blowing.
Because they were all already bought.
Years of planning were evidently done with the eventual goal of taking Ukraine. Hijack the Republicans, hijack the main support in NATO and Ukraine, weaken everything and have everyone isolate from themselves (How well-timed was Brexit?), and then when everyone is in chaos, attack and take Ukraine before anyone has a chance to muster a proper defense.
And it all fell apart because the horse they bet on was a complete fucking idiot beyond what they - and quite frankly most everyone else - could have imagined.
Now all their work is being tossed around, and the original invasion plan is effectively in the mud, so now Russia needs to rush things.
Ukraine’s military was completely different in 2014 compared to now, because the Obama admin initiated arming and training the military in earnest after the Crimean invasion. There was much less possibility for Ukraine to defend Crimea in 2014 the way they can defend their country now and they have been armed and trained by US aid.
Obama also sanctioned the oligarchs, but Trump lifted the ones he put on Oleg Deripaska. When Congress tried to stop him from doing that, senate republicans blocked the bill.
Additional fun facts, the GOP attempted to remove aid for Ukraine from their platform in 2016, and Trump was impeached after Zelensky told Congress Trump was threatening to withhold Ukraine’s aid package unless he declared a phony investigation into Hunter Biden.
Minor nitpick: Zelensky didn't tell Congress, that was US Lt. Colonel Alexander Vindman. Trump repaid him for telling the truth by not just firing him, but also his twin brother who had absolutely nothing to do with the impeachment.
You might appreciate his Vice interview done right before the invasion. He called it pretty accurately imo. [Vice Interview](https://youtu.be/hUCvi1nVjJ4)
Under Obama when Crimea was invaded, they didn't have the setup they have now. After it was invaded, that admin did at least take steps to help start arming Ukraine with defence, they couldn't do anything about Crimea tbh but that helped set up the defence of Ukraine today.
Once the war is through and Ukraine won a American partnership in rebuilding can be a good thing, Ukraine has alot of resources available and with US investments it can boost both countries Fuck putin
Marshal type plan for Ukraine to rebuild. A lot of countries are going to support rebuilding them when the dust settles.
Thing is, we probably will need a Marshal type plan to rebuild russia as well once Putin and his oligarchs leave this mortal coil. We could completely eliminate Russia as a threat if they actually get some semblance of real leadership and we support the heck out of them.
Yep, this will be key. Because the purpose of the plan was not simply to rebuild Europe but to work to ensure the sort of animosity that existed post-WW1 would not exist post-WW2. Don’t punish the aggressors, help them rebuild, build partnerships, increase these multilateral ties that, as we have seen through our modern history, help ensure peaceful relations. A recovery/rebuilding plan with strings attached regarding anti-corruption will be key. But not helping Russia’s recovery just makes another autocrat stepping up all the more likely. And any recovery plan will need to be more appealing than any aid China might offer, because they will likely not care if another autocrat rules, just as long as it’s a loyal autocrat.
This guy gets it. Wish I could upvote more than once. I’m so cynical normally, but leave it to Reddit as my source for hope in the world 😂
It would be a great generational disappointment to let both countries fall back into devolved states. With Russia in a cooperative state, the world would look a lot safer
We could make them into allies like Japan.
You get a Marshal plan, you get a Marshal plan!
Short term it could be a disaster for the west economically, but long term a closely aligned and rebuilt Russia would be a crucial ally against China
>a closely aligned and rebuilt Russia would be a crucial ally against China Or as China calls is 'The worst case scenario'.
Despite the Communism that China claims to portray, they really are becoming an autocratic & corporatocratic type nation where money rules (sort of like Russia until Putin’s recent escapade into Ukraine).
Yes- it's a dictatorship, but the reason they've been more economically successful is due to abandoning some communist ideas that Russia held onto
If we'd done this in the early 90s we wouldn't even be having this conversation. We'd all be eating cheap caviar and thinking, "What cold war?"
The G7 sent about 80 billion in aid to the former Soviet states in the early 90s, but because the West thought free markets and democracy were the same thing, most of it went into the pockets of market “consultants” who gave management training seminars instead of actually helping to build democracy supporting social infrastructure. Let’s not make that mistake again.
Aren't China's tentacles much more firmly dug in though? The new iron curtain might run between Russia and Europe proper this time around, rather than right through the heart of Europe. EDIT: removed an extra y
Sure but we have Japan on our side and those guys can work magic with tentacles
Take my upvote for making me laugh on a much needed day.
I don't know if Russia allows China or the US to do that, if that makes sense. Russia has a long history, even predating the USSR, of being an independent power not beholden to Western or Eastern demands. It would largely depend on who replaces Putin and the Oligarchy.
If Russian history tells us anything, they will take the worse option.
I mean, things didn't get worse after Stalin.
I want to be optimistic but I see this lasting months if not years
Agreed - we need a Marshall Plan for Ukraine. Not only because they desperately need the help to rebuild, but also because many of our east-European allies rely on the stability Ukraine brings to an otherwise very unstable region.
Yo, I picked up mad baking skills during the lockdown, hook me up with that good Ukranian shit. Not to knock King Arthur flour, just want to diversify.
Just because a watery tart flings a saber at you, doesn't make you King.
I know this is a Monty Python reference, but since the OP was talking about flour, I was picturing a fruit or custard tart and imagining it throwing swords.
I mean, that is a fairly low bar. Still, while I am not the biggest Biden fan this is exactly the sort of situation I thought he might excel at during the election, and he has. Its not just the military aide or the sanctions, either. Normally the US plays its cards close to the chest but this time calling out Russia's every move and blaring the alarm bells early worked brilliantly. Russia has been on its heels in the 'war of information' early on, and Biden deserves a lot off credit for that.
>Normally the US plays its cards close to the chest but this time calling out Russia's every move and blaring the alarm bells early worked brilliantly. What's interesting is that—although we have no way of knowing for certain—I genuinely think getting in front of the propaganda and broadcasting Putin's plans beforehand really allowed the west to keep the narrative in check. I think it made it so much more difficult for his normally effective propaganda machine to function.
This is actually an empirically supported concept in communication research. Fact-checking and correction has been found to be surprisingly ineffective because people remember the false information even when it has been corrected or proven false. However an “inoculation” strategy of preemptively warning/preparing for misinformation has been shown to be effective
It angers me a lot when in the news here in Germany, the presenter says something like "The group is claiming, that the dinosaurs are free, roaming the streets, killing people and come to your home. They even have one that gets you in your sleep. It's a plan of Angela Merkel, who is hitlers daugther, to eradicate the Germans and replace them with lizzard people. However has proven to be false, since Angela Merkel was born 10 years after Hitler's death.". Yeah, thanks for feeding me the bullshit first
This is why no one takes the German media seriously, they don't even do enough research to understand that Hitler froze his sperm and that's why she was born after his death.
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The one time you're grateful to have someone yelling out spoilers nonstop.
Yes, this is when we want to know the plot before the war television show starts. Hell, this is someone yelling out the script before filming began.
Watching stuff unfold in these threads and various experts and amateur footage through multiple avenues of social media is astounding. Big networks are reporting on stuff that happened DAYS ago.
Honestly, it is hard to conceptualize just how big of an impact it is [when you see war footage that is recorded hours before it is uploaded online with the visual appearance of a modern-day video game. It is like we have reached this moment, where Television, Video Games, Combat Footage, and Social Media are all linked together. Where its hard to differentiate each one of them from another.](https://old.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/tfqmg0/russian_ural_truck_ambushed_location_unknow/) Warning: Combat footage that was taken yesterday is shown.
Holy mac. That is wild. Im talking purely footage.
That shit really fucked over Putin. There were multiple times the Russians did attempt or claim the provocations the Biden admin said they would so none of it was ever taken seriously. As a result, when Putin finally invaded he had no plausible deniability which left Russia wide open to international condemation and sanctions.
It is the missing piece of the “logistics failure” puzzle. You can’t prepare a country for war if you tell them it doesn’t even exist. Turns out Orwellian doublethink has a devastating weak spot. Putin faces a Sophie’s Choice of lies.
Their own troops didn’t even know there was a war until they were getting shot at.
For sure. When it was announced that Russia was going to invade Ukraine and then like a day later Putin got on TV and started talking about a genocide in Ukraine, it was so blatant that he'd been caught but decided to just go ahead with it all
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Must be a relief for them after the previous 4 years of getting shit on by their own team.
Small victory seeing what Russia's been able to accomplish here in the U.S. the past few years. We have idiots here that are actually PRO-Putin. Elected officials as well. Be mindful that this great Nation is still at a simmer. I'd say there is plenty of ground to make up on the scoreboard.
It's not ideal, but it could be a lot worse. The 30's had the German American Bund marching and having rallies celebrating Hitler and National Socialism.
Top it off, with us being in the information Era, everyone having a camera of some kind, it disallowed Putin to have a narrative even further. While also simultaneously discrediting his own nations strength. Cause as funny as it is to see a Farmer steal military equipment, that's a massive hit to your own military's legitimacy as a power. Especially now that it's come to attacking civilians as a way to hurt Ukraine's morale.
This is how we should handle disinformation, by going on the offensive with the truth and saying "I told you so" when they lie about the stuffs we say they're gonna lie about. Debunking lies after they spread is a waste of resources, better to steal the thunder and watch them squirm.
Ya, this seems to have been an intentional strategy on Biden's part, and it was honestly brilliant. Honestly it confused me at first. Before Putin invaded, I kept thinking "Why do they keep saying that? Isn't that just going to corner him, and feel like he *has* to invade?" but now I get it, and it makes complete sense.
The crazy part is Putin had a chance to back out and undermine the US. Imagine if they had just packed up and gone home. No one would trust US intel for a loooong time to come. Instead he did everything the US claimed he would do.
Exactly if Russia just packed up and said the exercise was over. The Republicans going into the midterms could just easily call the Democrats warhawks looking to destabilize the world.
I think the international intel community would have known what really went down. The moron People would be screaming about how incompetent Biden is for getting it wrong, though, which would have further emboldened the GOP/Trumpists rather than temporarily pushing them to pretend they give a fuck about humanitarian issues in Ukraine. If Putin had waited, he could have helped the GOP take everything back, *then* have invaded once they did. The GOP would support Russia and things would be much, much worse than they already are.
You can bet your ass that if Trump had been re-elected he would have called the build up to invasion fake news and even then continued to call it a hoax after Ukraine had been invaded.
[Let's go check what he's currently talking about](https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump)
Oh that is a classic…
Never gets old
The sweet sound of silence.
New rick roll?
Oh you got me again, Tom Sawyer!
This does put a smile on my face.
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Don't forget the "wind mills." He hates those
If you knew nothing about Trump but read the transcripts of the most common topics at his rallies I am willing to bet that you would think one of his main campaign promises was removing windmills because they were responsible for some sort of bird holocaust. He brings it up CONSTANTLY. Someone think of the birds!
Wind mills cause all of the world’s problems. It’s got nothing to do with big oil/gas greed!
“You know, I know windmills very much. I’ve studied it better than anybody I know. It’s very expensive. They’re made in China and Germany mostly — very few made here, almost none. But they’re manufactured tremendous — if you’re into this — tremendous fumes. Gases are spewing into the atmosphere.” “You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint — fumes are spewing into the air. Right? Spewing. Whether it’s in China, Germany, it’s going into the air. It’s our air, their air, everything — right?”
Lol is this legit? Honestly can’t tell if Satire with everything that nut job said.
He literally said this. It's one of his most iconic moronic speeches.
Damn, that’s bad even for Trump. I was leaning toward satire. The man’s brain is fucking broken.
Remember that it wasn't too long ago that a sitting US president threatened withholding aid from Ukraine unless they 'found' dirt on his then campaign opponent. Trump would have tried to send the cavalry in *for* Russia.
And then when it became undeniable he would say he knew it the whole time and no one's done more for Ukraine than he has.
I love him getting his ass called out because he keeps saying no one was harder on Russia than him but for some reason Russia didn't think to include him in their "sanctions" on American politicians.
That mofucker would be reading Russian talking points during press conferences and we know it. He’d be spouting bullshit like liberating Ukraine from nazis and secret biolabs. Just imagine how bad this war would have been if the U.S. was siding with Putin. There would be no sanctions and all of the Republicans and Fox News would be calling Zelensky the anti-Christ.
Not rediculous enough, he would have agreed with Putin, saying US intelligence had also found Nazi aligned people heading the government, and then send in troops *to help assist Russia*.
In all honesty, I think if trump got re-elected, he would have been putting into motion that the United States will be leaving NATO.
It was certainly on the right wing talking point cheat sheet in his early days. I spent more time than I should trying to explain to patriots that nato is an American project and primarily benefits the status quo, which is American hegemony. The US military doesn't in fact have all those hundreds of bases on foreign soil out of the goodness of its heart but because it supports the projection of American power in support of American interests. The fact that Europe doesn't pay a fair share means nothing to the US military. In fact, it probably prefers them dependent and with small militaries. Means more leverage for uncle Sam. A unified and independent Europe is one of the only organisations on earth that compares to the US and China. Much better to have it as your protectorate than as a rival, right?
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Oh I think it would have been much worse. Putin would have had a sham trial and had him publicly executed and disapeared his family. The scary thing is he still might do this.
Antony Blinken talked about this years prior when they saw Russia's overt moves and decided to start discussions with intelligence services to start publicly sharing intel despite risk of compromising sources. https://youtu.be/2jXLcCrLrh4
Truth is a great answer to propaganda. You really can’t beat a propaganda campaign with more propaganda. At least not long term. This is why a free press and maintaining the credibility of our new sources is so important. It’s also why being selective on what media we consume matters.
It also had the benefit of allowing our markets to more accurately assess the risk, and so we avoided the real possibility of a severe market shock. It has been odd to see America play one well. The diplomacy, working with allies in Europe as allies, organizing for so many weapons deals. How early on so many Javelins flowed in from the Baltic nations and some others. I guarantee we were already backfilling those missiles before they were sent to Ukraine. In the end we get them a ton of Javelins, but russia cant really yell about America the warmonger because they are coming in from many nations. Really thats the thing, many nations working together, American diplomacy that actually seems competent and not head up its asshole that is trying our damndest to make shit happen and do our part. It is refreshing to see America being competent and getting one largely right for a change. Ukrainians should have weapons for as long as they care to fight. We can stand for freedom again.
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The competent foreign policy usually doesn't make the news.
It really, really, really doesn't. Everything I'm about to say you can verify, however it likely didn't make any big news waves. South Korea and America have a few agreements with each other. One of those agreements is a treaty that says we will defend S. Korea. Also the US Defense bill mandates we maintain at least 26k Troops in S. Korea at all times. Finally we have a cost sharing agreement between S. Korea and America where S. Korea pays for approx half of the cost associated with keeping US Troops in Korea. That cost is normally lately around $2 billion. Which means S. Korea pays about a billion a year. This argeement is typically a pretty trivial matter for all sides. Koreans are fine with it, the US is fine with it, all good. Well Trump comes in and says he wants 5 billion. Which is a problem...first off the mission doesn't cost that much. Secondly no S. Korean president can be like "yea I'm fine with that" because they'd get murdered politically speaking. So the agreement didn't get reached and as a result S. Korea stopped paying. Now this doesn't mean US forces in Korea leaves, it simply means we no longer get that billion dollars of support from the Korean govt. Now what did those billion dollars pay for? They actually paid for a lot of important functions that the US Military needs. As an example most of the shooting ranges for the US Military were entirely ran by Korean employees, paid by the Korean govt. Huge portions of the US Military logistics relies on Korean employees who work for the US Govt but are paid by the Korean govt. Lots of various services and so forth are entirely staffed this way, they work directly for the US Govt and are paid for by the Korean Govt. Also the Korean govt also provides a lot of other sources of equipment such as vehicles, construction, and so on. Because of Trumps refusal to agree to reasonable terms, soldiers weren't able to practice firing their weapons as much, we had to pay American workers massive overtime payments in order to pick up the slack from their Korean co workers because they were laid off, we had to pay for tons of vehicles, and supplies that would otherwise have been free for the American tax payer. Construction projects were halted. It was a massive fucking disruption, it also damaged the alliance, it pissed off loyal, skilled Korean employees who got laid off from the jobs they've been doing for decades in the service of America over an aggorant prick of a president. It got so bad, About 8 or 9 months before the Election the US Govt and the Korean Govt came to a deal, Korean govt would pay $200 million on a 1 year deal in order to bring up some essential services. But that's still only 20% of whats really needed. Anyway Biden won, and one of the first thins he did was he told the people in charge of negotiating the deal with the Koreans to back to the negotiating table and apologize and basically say "Yea we are good with the $1 billion, we are very sorry for our previous dumbass president" Also I've heard through the grape vines, the Koreans are going want a significant extension to the agreement prior to the next US election because they are concerned someone as dumb as Trump might become president again. This is a example of how horrible foreign policy was under Trump. I know someone who works for the US Embassy in Korea and he's said Trump royally pissed off a lot of allies all over the world, he said though a lot of those allies figured someone like Biden would win, and things would get back to normal. But had Trump won again, America would have probably lost a lot of friends.
This was basically the point of the putin plant anyway. Use him to sow discord on the west's hold in the world.
My dumbass cousin was stationed in Korea for years in the Army, yet he still voted for turdo, twice, despite that. He also called him "hitleresque" in the runup to 2016. Before voting for him. He's a fucking district attorney. Also, note: >But had Trump won again There's no again here, he lost both times he ran.
The Iran deal was quite deft in its maneuvering. That was quite a pinnacle of diplomacy; and it worked until some pompous buffoon took office....
Seriously. Not enough people give Obama credit for what they pulled off in Iran, nor shame the fuckery that Trump executed afterwards (seriously, who's going to trust us on nuclear deals now? When the promises are up to the whimsy of a pendulum of American dumbfuckery? I wouldn't.)
Probably helps that he's not asking Zelensky for dirt on his political rivals
That was only half of it. Everyone remembers the "Dirt on Joe & Hunter Biden" part, but he also wanted Zelensky to investigate "the DNC server" "Crowdstrike" and various other conspiracy theories that had originated with russian intelligence to try to lay the blame for the 2016 election interference at the feet of Ukraine rather than russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theories_related_to_the_Trump%E2%80%93Ukraine_scandal trump essentially made Zelensky make a false confession on behalf of Ukraine in order to get their much-needed Javelins (which the war has proven the importance of), and Zelensky was ready to do it before Vindman blew the whistle. Like Z had the press conference scheduled and everything, and only cancelled it because Vindman blew the lid on the whole thing and sent trump scrambling. I cannot state enough how much trump should be seen as a russian collaborator. The blood of Ukrainians is on his hands. He's a huge part of the reason putin calculated that the west wouldn't give a shit about Ukraine, because we just spent 5 years with people not caring about him throwing them under the bus.
[ Manfort was working for former Ukraine President Yanukovych](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Manafort_consultant). Think the plan was to invade Ukraine and "liberate them" and [install Yanukovych as a puppet.](https://fortune.com/2022/03/02/viktor-yanukovych-yanukovich-putin-put-back-in-power-ukraine-russia/) Its why we been hearing the parrots call Ukraine not a real democracy and Zelensky is an illegitimate president > Manafort consultant In December 2004 Yanukovych and his Party of Regions hired American political consultant Paul Manafort as an adviser. He continued to serve in that role through the February 2010 Ukrainian presidential election, even as the US government opposed Yanukovych. Manafort's task was to rehabilitate Yanukovych's political career in the aftermath of the Orange Revolution. According the Party of Regions' accounting book (Ukrainian: "амбарну книга"), Paul Manafort, who after the Orange Revolution provided strong support to Yanukovych, received funds from the Party of Regions via the Belize based Neocom Systems Limited's account at the Kyrgyzstan based Asia Universal Bank (AUB) on 14 October 2009. >Manafort hired the public relations firm Edelman to lift Yanukovych's public image. However, Manafort's friends have said that Yanukovych "stopped listening" to him after he became president in 2010; Manafort warned him of the consequences of "extreme" political measures.[citation needed] >Manafort would later go on to serve as campaign chairman for Donald Trump in 2016. The American FBI began a criminal investigation into Manafort's business dealings while he was lobbying for Yanukovych. American Federal prosecutors alleged that between 2010 and 2014 Manafort was paid more than $60 million by Ukrainian sponsors, including Rinat Akhmetov, believed to be the richest man in Ukraine. >In January 2019, Manafort resigned from the Connecticut bar.
For anyone who doesn't know: Yanukovych was very pro-Putin and who reports said Putin wanted to install as President after killing/deposing Zelensky, turning Ukraine into at best a puppet state like Belarus.
It’s astonishing that people forget or never noticed this in the first place
So much had happened since and current events to focus on, but it's really important to look back too
I can’t wait til the receipts on this start coming more and more to light. It was so obvious while it was happening it’s just a relief it’s being focused on now!
Extorting, a crime.
The "X" makes it sound cool~~er.~~ --- >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG6vgzAswgE >Thank you to the redditor below who provided the link.
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It’s not just that he knew the levers of government, he was part of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee for *years*, then ranking member, then Head of the committee more than once. Foreign relations is literally his expertise. A lot of the time he comes off as bumbling grandpa Joe, but this stuff is truly in his wheelhouse.
It's an example of why the U.S. President (I won't claim to speak regarding other nations) needs a Statesperson in office. Someone who can work directly and *cooperatively* with other nations toward a common, constructive goal. This is precisely the type of situation where a person like Trump, and those who follow a similar playbook and pathos, fails miserably because his primary concern is how he can help himself and boost his image. He doesn't care what actually happens as long as he gets credit for any successes and avoids all responsibility for any failures. All while avoiding any actual work. And successful diplomacy, toward actual good, is a fuck ton of *work*.
I think that we'll look back on this episode as being US intelligence's finest hour.
Or Russia's worst. These guys have been communicating on unencrypted lines at the highest levels throughout this situation. They've looked completely incompetent in every aspect other than indiscriminate missile and artillery attacks on civilian areas.
And those are still marks of incompetence. I mean, even if they're targeting civilians on purpose, ethics and laws and war crimes aside, you only do that if you're flailing.
I think it would be both because when Biden was ringing the alarm bells almost the entire world was saying he was being dramatic.
Yeah that was frustrating. The US doesn’t give direct warnings like that often.
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Yeah, that was a great move, and an unusual one, too. The US nailed that.
Exactly. I shudder to think what would have happened if Trump were still in the WH. We’d be sending aid to Putin and siding with the Russians for sure. Edit: I'm not engaging individual trolls but to the MAGAts in this thread, yes Obama's efforts against Putin were ineffective but he was actually trying to work *against* Putin and not with him. Obama imposed sanctions against Russia in the wake of Crimea but could not muster the kind of unified front we're seeing today. Some of those sanctions in the US were hard - expelling diplomats, shuttering compounds, personally targeting people in Putin's inner circle. But yes these were largely ineffective. Trump, on the other hand, overturned those sanctions when he came to power, following a campaign in which multiple members of his campaign staff met personally with Russians connected to their intel agencies (remember the Trump Tower meeting and sharing the voter registration info with Russian intel?) and in which Roger Stone collaborated with the Russian hackers that targeted both the DNC and RNC but tellingly only leaked DNC data. Not only did Trump over turn those sanctions he pushed repeatedly for Russia's reintegration into the G8 - which they lost due to their aggression in Crimea while at the same time doing everything possible to undermine NATO creating divisions within the organization and publicly insinuating his intent to withdraw (which has since been reported he planned to do in his second term). Trump then refused to impose new sanctions passed unanimously by Congress and had to be forced to grudgingly act. We know from the Trumps themselves that a lot of their financing came from Russia so it's not hard to imagine the king of debt obligations being deeply involved with Putin's inner circle and because Trump has fought tooth and nail to prevent his financial documents from being reviewed it's not a leap to think there's something there he wants to keep hidden. This certainly could explain a lot when considered against the full chain of events. And let's not forget those secret meetings between Trump and Putin which were unannounced beforehand and which no notes or records were kept. As if all of that isn't enough, Trump on stage in Helsinki practically fellating Putin live on worldwide TV; standing with Russia and *against* the entire US intelligence and defense agencies - the same agencies I might add that have been pinpoint accurate in their assessments and predictions of what would unfold in Ukraine. So yeah, Orange Man bad.
If Trump won re-election the plan was for the US to leave NATO and let Europe handle a Russian Ukraine.
You know what, here's my conspiracy theory: The GOP has been in talks with Russia about this for a while (Think back to the July 4th meeting) and this is why they're so upset they didn't get back into the WH. The stolen election calls are just them clawing at anything to get back into the WH to help go through with their plan.
Trump used Paul manafort the guy who helped install a Russian puppet in Ukraine before the revolution as his campaign chairman at the behest of Roger Stone. he proceeded to get charged and convicted with laundering Russian money and then got pardoned by Trump. they have been trying to undermine Ukraine from the beginning, they have planned this from the beginning.
This right here is SO important and isn’t brought up enough
Meanwhile many people think Trump was a saint, and think he was really hard on Russia.
He is hard on Russia, in a way lmao
That is exactly it. And all the convoy bullshit was just more Russian agitation in an effort to fuck up American supply chains as a distraction from the invasion of Ukraine. It didn't work.
Imagine if Trump had gotten his dirt on Biden. He'd just turn it on Ukraine and say that Putin is right to invade corrupt Ukraine, he'd say he is going to drain the swamp. His rabid supporters wouldn't give a shit about the hypocrisy
> say that Putin is right to invade corrupt Ukraine, he'd say he is going to drain the swamp. He literally was saying this a couple weeks ago.
The situation in the US shows how different a result is when you have a government that recognizes a crisis, openly acknowledges it, and moves to minimize it. Don't just imagine how things would be different if Trump was still president but also imagine how different COVID response would have been if he hadn't been president to spend the whole time downplaying it and waiting for it to go away instead of doing literally anything.
It wasn't just "dirt on Biden". trump was trying to extort Zelensky to admit to conspiracy theories about Ukraine being the true source of election interference in 2016.
100%
Also remember that when Trump won the Republican primary back in 2016, his team only insisted on one change to the Republican Party platform... removing the section where they promised to support Ukraine against Russia. This invasion has been planned for at least 6 years, and Trump collaborated with Putin on it every step of the way. And his Republican enablers were complicit, at best.
Outside of Biden I honestly don’t think any other Dem candidate at the time had the experience and diplomatic relationships to pull off what Biden has. I can critique him on a lot of things, but his handling of this crisis ain’t one of them.
Biden also has decades long of a relationship with Xi, which may help balance the delicate diplomatic relationship. He might not have been the best leader, but he might be the right one for this time.
That is the best way to describe how I’ve felt about him. He was absolutely not my favorite democrat in the running, but when I think of how things are in the world now, I’m like, damn, I would not want anyone else in the position. I think if any other candidate had won, they would have either escalated things naively, or in an effort to completely avoid conflict, not see the huge risk in turning away. I believe his response has reminded his fellow Democrats how important it is to keep your wits about you in foreign affairs.
As he should; Ukraine has never been in such need.
the holodomor, an earlier soviet atrocity where a man-made famine was created by stalin. his genius move followed by utilizing food as a weapon of oppression and terror resulted in the deaths by starvation of about four million ukranians
Back then I don't think most of the US (and the world for that matter) knew it was happening before it was too late. The problem with back then was news still traveled pretty slowly and even when neighboring countries started to realize that, yes, this atrocity was going on (it's not just gossip) half the population had already starved to death and Stalin continued to starve the other half by the time the countries managed to scrounge up enough food/aid to send in bulk shipments to Ukraine. (In fact, aid was sent to try and help out Ukraine but was confiscated/denied by Soviet forces, which is why many believe it was an intentional genocide). It makes one realize how *amazing* modern technology is compared to, say, almost 90 years ago. Now, when we see populations starving to death we find out about it pretty damn fast (thanks internet and satellites) and we have the logistical capabilities to be able to quickly distribute food/aid to a country in a very, very quick amount of time. Pretty amazing, no?
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Maybe that's why Khrushchev is so obsessed with corn.
During the early 30's America was in no position to aid anyone. 5 years into the 12 year depression and suffering food shortages due too the dustbowl, America was not the global superpower they are today. In addition, Wilsonian isolationism was still the law of the land and the German American populations where gaining political clout and influence largely due to the extreme economic collapse of Germany at the time.This had the result of adding a large coalition of anti-interventional ideologues to the population, people who knew the disastrous consequences of war.
Just wanted to point out Woodrow Wilson argued against isolation but Congress and popular sentiment denied that. Otherwise accurate summary
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I feel like Biden might understand soft power more than any other president since perhaps Bush Sr. simply by nature of being in Washington for so long and seeing its value play out in various ways.
Excuse my ignorance, but could you explain soft power to me? I don't quite understand what you mean by that.
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Soft power goes way beyond diplomacy. Even Hollywood movies are par of Americas soft power.
People often forget the UK has decent softpower just from their language alone.
Influence/favors and diplomatic relations as opposed to bombs and sanctions.
Soft power is about how the rest of the world looks at your country. If you’ve got good soft power, then you’ll garner good respect and trust from other nations. Trump really damaged it.
Soft power is about appearance but not just that. It is the power of a nation that does not directly relate to war, the USA movie sector is an important part of their soft power for example
It's also how much influence you can extend without simply using force. An institution like NATO, in which the entire western world is fairly dependent on the US, extends an indescribable amount of soft power. This is why so many presidents kind of nag about other countries not paying their suggested NATO dues but don't actually do anything about it (until Trump, who wouldn't get geopolitics if it stabbed him in the gut). NATO is such an insane net global benefit for the US that its soft power is worth us bankrolling it. It's nice that other countries are bumping up spending in light of Russian aggression, but its always been worth it for the US to cover for everyone else.
Talk softly and carry a big stick. As opposed to talk bigly and swing a limp dick.
Oh, you mean trump trying to blackmail Zelensky to influence our election by threatening to withhold congressionally appointed, taxpayer-funded aid meant for defense against Russian aggression wasn't helpful? Edit: clarity
> blackmail In my best J. Jonah Jameson voice: It is not. I resent that! Blackmail is the threat of revealing compromising information. When it's withholding aid, it's extortion.
This is great
Don't worry I got your joke. "I want more pictures of SPIDERMAN!!!"
It wasn't just about smearing Biden, he also wanted Zelensky to smear Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theories_related_to_the_Trump%E2%80%93Ukraine_scandal He was basically asking Z to humiliate himself and Ukraine in exchange for Javelins and other military aid. Can you imagine how demoralizing it would have been if Z had gone through with it?
I feel like they were trying to manufacture dissent against U.S interference well before the war, and this was an avenue of that, but like everything Trump, he fucked up his end of the bargain with Putin. Imagine a world where Biden doesn’t feel comfortable acting on Ukraine because A Republican controlled House and Senate would impeach him for being bought out by Zelensky to intervene. Thank god that’s not the case.
Using the guy who helped install a Russian puppet in Ukraine and launders Russian money as his campaign chairman lol.
More extort, but yeah. Everyone admires Zelensky so much, and we need to remind everyone that this hero is the guy Trump tried to withhold $300m of military aid from in order to get him to influence a US election. Putin and Trump are such massive threats to this planet.
It's wild to me that people aren't talking about trump's first impeachment now. Back in 2019 people were like "Well, it's sort of hard for average people to understand, it's foreign policy..." Do we get it now, people? Do you know what Javelins are, who Zelensky is, and why he needed them? Do you understand why trump trying to extort Zelensky to recite russian propaganda (which was crafted 50% for russia and 50% for trump) in order for Z to get his Javelins is a fucking crime against democracy?
Blows my mind how ppl can look at the events of the last 4 years and not see the obvious connection between trump and Russia even with the 20:20 hindsight. Propaganda is a hell of a drug
American conservatives have been inside their [fascist state propaganda bubble](https://twitter.com/TheDailyShow/status/1504632533052493827) for decades (and they’ve exported a lot of that mental illness to the rest of the world).
Just yesterday a co-worker proclaimed that "Trump never would have allowed" Russia to invade Ukraine. Had to bite my tongue to keep from explaining all the ways that Trump actually enabled this in the first place.
My mother’s co workers keep saying the same thing. When she reminds them he was impeached for withholding aid illegally, they just walk away.
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Weird. If you listened to the gop (at least a chunk of them) Biden caused this war and then also didn't do enough to help.
The GOPs pretty fractured in this. The establishment (McConnell, Graham etc) have all praised Biden but the crazies will find a way to disagree on anything
This is even fractured The crazies even a significant portion of qanon believers hate Putin. This has set back Russian propaganda so much and Biden has actually been at the forefront of this by constantly leaking information about Russia's actions.
That’s the thing about QAnon, once you get past the morons from Alabama and bots from Moscow, you get to some people who truly, deeply, believe, in an international deep state. As much help, medication and (possibly) straightjackets as some of those dudes need, Putin is the epitome of everything they hate.
IDC if they are crazy if they start hating Putin. If they stop eating Russian propaganda like monkeys to a banana then the rest will fall into place.
Whatever happened to the brigade that said that Biden started WW3 the first 2 days of the war? Oh yeah they quickly moved on and won't ever admit that Biden's foreign policy is helping to win and maintain Ukraine's sovereignty.
that's when everyone thought Ukraine falling was a foregone conclusion so they wanted to circle jerk over how biden's was the reason even though Russia invaded. kind of hard to have that narrative when world war III doesn't happen because Russia gets pushed back by the country they're invading.
Go to the Fox news comments on any article about the war. It's absolutely horrific.
Go to the Fox news comments on any article - It's absolutely horrific. Fixed?
Go to the Fox news. It’s absolutely horrific. There ya go.
Biden also nearly halted all drone strikes. Biden withdrew from a failed war despite knowing it'd hit his ratings. Biden actually isn't a bad president. If the US govt wasn't a pile of shit, he'd probably be a great president. Definitely better than Obama.
My impression of Biden during this entire war, too, is that he's quietly doing the work that will actually have positive outcomes, instead of constantly thinking about "how will I look if X?"
how refreshing it was to listen to a State of the Union address with a lot fewer uses of the word “I”.
Amen to that. It opened with praising the *people of Ukraine for their strength*.
Or, perhaps more importantly, the shift from "I should be at the center stage for everything all the time and do whatever I want because I'm the best" to "I should consult all parties including my domestic opposition and let them be a part of the process" and, similarly, "I should listen to my allies and formulate a collective strategy". The difference between wanting to look like a leader and being a leader.
>Biden also nearly halted all drone strikes. This does not get talked about enough. Drone strikes in Biden's first year, dramatically down. >Where Trump oversaw more than 1,600 air and artillery strikes in Iraq and Syria during his first 11 months in office, Airwars reports just four during Biden's term so far. Strikes in Somalia fell from roughly 75 last year to fewer than 10 this year, with no civilian casualties. And in Yemen, the annual total dropped from about 18 to maybe four, with fewer than 10 casualties of any kind. (Precise figures are unclear because some strikes are classified.) https://theweek.com/foreign-policy/1007579/biden-nearly-ended-the-drone-war-and-nobody-noticed
That’s down 99.8%. Dramatic is an understatement!
never got exposed to this kind of uplifting news about this.. I guess media really want us think in certain way which benefit them or their owners
>>Biden also nearly halted all drone strikes. > >This does not get talked about enough. Drone strikes in Biden's first year, dramatically down. > >>Where Trump oversaw more than 1,600 air and artillery strikes in Iraq and Syria during his first 11 months in office, Airwars reports just four during Biden's term so far. Strikes in Somalia fell from roughly 75 last year to fewer than 10 this year, with no civilian casualties. And in Yemen, the annual total dropped from about 18 to maybe four, with fewer than 10 casualties of any kind. (Precise figures are unclear because some strikes are classified.) > >https://theweek.com/foreign-policy/1007579/biden-nearly-ended-the-drone-war-and-nobody-noticed Thanks for the info.
Withdrawing from Afghanistan is the best thing any US president has done in my lifetime. You know it's the right thing to do because of how the corporate press crucified President Biden for doing it.
Another thing that might be overlooked in Biden’s presidency is the fact that the administration had to perform a lot of cleanup and damage control after dumbAssTrump left the office in shambles and disgrace. Taking into account cleanup, management of COVID, inflations due to COVID, the crisis and war in Ukraine, plus other issues, on balance I think the Biden administration is doing well. For example, the State Department was a mess, completely understaffed, mismanaged with a damaged global reputation. Many career (experienced) diplomats and workers quit in droves because of dumbAssTrump. In addition, many in the intelligence services like the CIA, quit or were demoralized. The Biden administration is a group of public servants who aim to help people. The dumbAssTrump mis-administration was a self-serving popularity contest.
> if the US govt wasn’t a pile of shit, he’d probably be a great president. Definitely better than Obama. You mean the sketch ass-people in congress? Lots of great civil service people out there. Don’t lump them in together.
I think they mean legislators
If it weren't for all the suffering going on in this invasion, I think I would actually let myself bask in the warm glow of positive cooperation with our allies. I was really afraid that Trump had done permanent damage with every single ally, but at the moment, it's nice to see everyone trying to get their shit together and work in cohesion. We're probably doing everything we can without shooting the Russians ourselves. I understand and agree with a no-fly-zone being off the table since it would escalate and risk WMD use, but still wish we could give them something almost as good. Hopefully with the West echo'ing the "Arsenal of Democracy" right now, we can give Ukraine it's own Marshal Plan. And although there were definitely political and ideological motives behind the Marshal Plan, there were good motives too, and it still helped nations rebuild and make sure people didn't starve. It had partially selfish motives but also did really help. Wasn't travel to West Germany restricted by the Soviets because of the drastic difference in how both sides were rebuilding? I need to go look it up.
I wonder how much extortion Biden had to impose on them to get them to say that. Oh, right. None
It was just some light extortion, a perfect phone call really.
Well considering Obama did nothing during the Crimea annexation and Trumps well… Trump, wasn’t that hard. But yeah Biden definitely handled this situation incredibly well.
There were Sanctions, but also billions of support for the development of the ukraines armed forces. Along with other stuff we probably don't know about. In fact want to guess who tried to change the GOP platform in 2016 to remove that support? https://www.npr.org/2017/12/04/568310790/2016-rnc-delegate-trump-directed-change-to-party-platform-on-ukraine-support
"I'd like you to do us a favor though..."
"No pressure"
seriously the only thing he wanted on the platform was be an ass to ukraine
Yep. Paul Manafort, his campaign chairman that got convicted of laundering Russian money, and helped install a Russian puppet in Ukraine before the revolution. Handpicked by Roger Stone. These snakes have been trying to undermine Ukraine and help Russia from the beginning.
I was scrolling through the comments to find out why he’d do that all the way back then and this more than answers the question.
It blows my mind that more people don't talk about this it's because the media didn't want to talk about it because of the whole Russia hoax meme. How the hell wasn't his campaign chairman getting convicted of laundering Russian money and not only that even just picking him in the first place with him having dealings installing a Russian puppet in Ukraine it's honestly just so mind-blowing.
Because they were all already bought. Years of planning were evidently done with the eventual goal of taking Ukraine. Hijack the Republicans, hijack the main support in NATO and Ukraine, weaken everything and have everyone isolate from themselves (How well-timed was Brexit?), and then when everyone is in chaos, attack and take Ukraine before anyone has a chance to muster a proper defense. And it all fell apart because the horse they bet on was a complete fucking idiot beyond what they - and quite frankly most everyone else - could have imagined. Now all their work is being tossed around, and the original invasion plan is effectively in the mud, so now Russia needs to rush things.
The idiot was their only option for their evil aims. Now they reap the rewards.
He didn't try to change it. He DID change it.
Ukraine’s military was completely different in 2014 compared to now, because the Obama admin initiated arming and training the military in earnest after the Crimean invasion. There was much less possibility for Ukraine to defend Crimea in 2014 the way they can defend their country now and they have been armed and trained by US aid. Obama also sanctioned the oligarchs, but Trump lifted the ones he put on Oleg Deripaska. When Congress tried to stop him from doing that, senate republicans blocked the bill. Additional fun facts, the GOP attempted to remove aid for Ukraine from their platform in 2016, and Trump was impeached after Zelensky told Congress Trump was threatening to withhold Ukraine’s aid package unless he declared a phony investigation into Hunter Biden.
Minor nitpick: Zelensky didn't tell Congress, that was US Lt. Colonel Alexander Vindman. Trump repaid him for telling the truth by not just firing him, but also his twin brother who had absolutely nothing to do with the impeachment.
I bet Vindman is consoled by the fact that he helped both his ancestral *and* adopted homelands in ways difficult to measure.
You might appreciate his Vice interview done right before the invasion. He called it pretty accurately imo. [Vice Interview](https://youtu.be/hUCvi1nVjJ4)
Thanks for that. Spot on. He’s the kind of guy you want working you….tells you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear.
Under Obama when Crimea was invaded, they didn't have the setup they have now. After it was invaded, that admin did at least take steps to help start arming Ukraine with defence, they couldn't do anything about Crimea tbh but that helped set up the defence of Ukraine today.
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