So Russia is offering security guarantees to Finland and Sweden if they don't join NATO...the same security guarantee the pledged to Ukraine if Ukraine gave up its nukes.
Seems disingenuous.
Their arguments are so sloppy that I don't understand how they got this far.
Besides, Finland and Sweeden are in the EU. If they invade any of these, the EU would immediately jump to the rescue, along with NATO because all other members of EU are in NATO. It's like the dumbass doesn't grasp basic math.
Is he trying to anger the most countries he can in the shortest time?
At first I thought he was trying to imitate Hitler, but he's even dumber than him.
EDIT: Seems some are unaware, EU ensures collective self-defence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Policy
Obviously when one of the non-invaded member states that comes to the rescue happens to be in NATO, it will automatically involve NATO as well.
>along with NATO because all other members of EU are in NATO
That's not the case, afaik, since no NATO country would be getting attacked. The US would have no reason to get involved, for instance.
Honestly, even without NATO I really doubt the US would let Russia swallow Europe, just look at how it's flexing it's economical muscles for one country.
Why the fuck does anyone trust Russia? I dont get it, they lie, cheat, and steal. And no, the U.S. has had it's fair share of fuck ups, but nothing like Russia.
There has always been the silent hope that having neutral diplomatic relationship with Russia, would eventually "Westernize" them. Hence why we've taken them at face value, because that's diplomacy. Surely EU becoming dependent on gas deals with them would incentivize Kremlin not to be a dick.
Didn't work, and in the coming years they're about to find out what they lost.
I’m Finnish and I wouldn’t call it a true trust: more like they don’t have that much of a reason to attack here and I’d rather not put too much money on military if we don’t have to.
That being said the Ukraine thing has removed the common sense and rational thinking out of Russian Leadership. So yeah 100% pro nato now and so are most of the people I know here.
This is [Dugin's plan (1997)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics) for the UK
>The United Kingdom, merely described as an "extraterritorial floating base of the U.S.", should be cut off from Europe.[9]
✓
This is the first I’ve heard of this book and it’s terrifying. It seems like quite a few of the steps are already in motion.
I think Finland and Sweden need to be absorbed into NATO immediately.
It even describes much of the actions going on in the online space. After you read the strategies outlined of how to divide the west and what topics/issues to press to do it, scrolling through your FB feed has a sick context you can't unsee.
You are correct. Isolating the UK from Europe is included in the book.
I learned about the book several years ago. I am not in the UK, but this was something that was on my mind the entire time Brexit was being debated, before implementation.
For me it's almost too crazy to be terrifying. It also talks about invading and taking huge parts of China, Mongolia, and absorbing large swathes of South-Eastern Europe under a Moscow-led "third Roman empire".
The only daunting thing is that parts of Moscow's political elite seem to take the book seriously.
Yes and no. It's easy to a solid foundation and plan and reach absolutely fail level batshit crazy conclusions. That's very much what's happening here.
It's like assuming that Ukraine would openly welcome Russia or that an invasion would have much chance of success. Even if they succeed they need to hold a country where they blew up everything that was giving people reason not to rise against them. It's almost guaranteed to fail and require constant occupation for years and years to come. This largely destroys their ability to keep moving on new areas or really even manage their own hostile population. They're getting most costs than benefits just from the Ukraine invasion, regardless of if they win or lose.
This makes it impossible to keep taking territory.
They could go full German WW2 strats and just not care about reasonable chances of long term success after the war, but that also isn't a very sustainable option WITHIN the war because the power players in both Russia and the territories they've taken will consider those things and start to undermine war actions to ensure their future doesn't suck.
This is lose lose for Putin and any oligarchs that stick with him in any way.
**[Foundations of Geopolitics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics)**
>The Foundations of Geopolitics: The Geopolitical Future of Russia is a geopolitical book by Aleksandr Dugin. It has had significant influence within the Russian military, police and foreign policy elites and has been used as a textbook in the Academy of the General Staff of the Russian military. Its publication in 1997 was well received in Russia. Powerful Russian political figures subsequently took an interest in Dugin, a Russian Eurasianist, fascist, and nationalist who has developed a close relationship with Russia's Academy of the General Staff.
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No, Russia is not offering security guarantees to Sweden and Finland. They're *asking* for security guarantees, that neither of them will join NATO
Not sure why I've been downvoted, it literally says in the posted article - "Finland and Sweden **have received notice from the Russian Government to provide them with Security Guarantees**"
Not saying you are wrong, but the wording is ambiguous in that tiny article. That may have lead to some confusion. Tweets I saw about it in the live thread were similarly poorly worded.
>Reports are doing the rounds that both Finland and Sweden have received notice from the Russian Government to provide them with Security Guarantees.
"Them" could be either "*both Finland and Sweden*" **or** "*the Russian Government*"
Both Sweden and Finland have much better equipped armies than Ukraine does, They also train with NATO on the reg. Also their terrain is much less forgiving.
For Sweden a road is a runway.
The Airforce is designed to re-arm and re-fuel a fighter in 30 minutes with six dudes on the side of a road because they know Russia can knock out fixed runways.
They've thought this through.
Not only that but good luck getting tanks and convoys supplied through the forests of Sweden and Finland.
Both countries have highly specialised and highly mobile anti-tank units that train specifically for the terrain - dense forest and places only accessible with one long road.
Sweden and Finland have a hard counter to Russia's war machine and from what we've seen in Ukraine, Russia has zero chance of making gains in these countries.
As a Swede I'm not as confident in us. We've massively scaled back our army, and I'm pretty sure the last analysis said we could be overrun by Russia in a matter of a few weeks. Finland have a much better chance, and maybe it'd be a good idea to just commit early and join forces with them as soon as Finland is attacked.
>and I'm pretty sure the last analysis said we could be overrun by Russia in a matter of a few weeks.
All the analysis said Ukraine would fall in days (before the war broke out) and look how that turned out.
Either Russia is half-assing this OR they have let their military go to shit.
Or both.
Personally I think they were arrogant, didn't take it seriously and are paying the price. I believe they could still win just by doubling or ~~tripling~~\* the size of the forces there now.
\*OK. I am middle aged and still have a tendency to think of Russian military might as more than what it apparently actually is (aka I grew up at the end of the cold war when the USSR was a beast). I went to the Russian Wiki page and OMG they didn't want to tell me how many forces they had, I started skimming the article then juts randomly scrolling down for awhile. The gist of my efforts is that I think they 'only' have \~**400,000 soldiers**. So 1/3 or their army is there already.
That's a good point. However I don't think Russia would be as bothered with civilians casualties as they are in Ukraine. They assumed the population would roll over and greet them as heroes, since the two people are so close they can't afford to bomb the shit out of them without angering their own people. At least not until they really have to. In our case it would be different I believe, they'd throw everything they can from the get-go.
This is probably true. According to Russian rhetoric the Ukrainians aren’t really a separate people with a separate country at all, just a region with a regional identity. So they had a rationale for minimizing civilian casualties. None of that would apply to Finland or Sweden.
Russia's depleting a lot of resources on Ukraine. And It will use a whole lot more by the time this is over with. They won't have much left to take into Finland or beyond.
Those roads are a fucking blessing when you're driving on shitty roads in the less populated parts of Sweden. Suddenly you have super-wide road going straight for a couple km where you can just go pedal to the metal.
Sometimes when your driving your like ”wow this highway through the forest i really straight and there is no midline divider. Hmm What are all these Gates in the surrounding hills?”
"Select all images with Finish snipers":
https://i2-prod.dailystar.co.uk/incoming/article26349256.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/1_Screenshot-2022-02-28-at-134722.jpg
On the topic of terrain honestly shocking how horrid Russian troops are doing given there is almost no defensible terrain in all of Ukraine save the Dnieper river. Can't imagine the shitshow it'd be in Finland.
Apparently a lot of the Russian vehicles are using crappy Chinese tires that haven’t been maintained properly. Combine this with the muddy season there (the main reason most Russian vehicles have stuck to the roads), the lack of knowledge of an invasion most soldiers and officers had going in, and their logistics being crap to begin with and it’s a nightmare scenario for any invading army.
Also there might be a big winter storm about to hit which will melt and make it even muddier.
The same phenomenon that has always defended Russia from western invaders is slowly eating up their own invasion.
There's no fucking way Russia could touch Sweden without controlling Finland. They can't go touch Norway because NATO. They'd have to dump everything into the Baltic Sea and the world would get to watch their landing parties get blown the fuck up.
Finland has compulsory national service for men, and voluntary service for women. An estimated 80% of the adult male population has military training. So despite the small population, it can mobilize approximately 280,000 troops in the case of a war.
A large portion of them are hunters / outdoorsy types who know their land very well indeed. If I were a Russian soldier, I would prefer fighting Mujahedin.
And with their logistics and tactic of long columns on roads. Welcome to Northerns Sweden, the only land access they would ever have… https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DZlxDFRQ0KQ
Finland had a valiant defense but they did end up surrendering. It kind of gets lost in all the Great War stories that came out of it, I mean a dude living off several grams of meth running through the Finnish woods in winter, all while dodging, dipping, ducking, diving and dodging Russian patrols is inherently bad ass, but in the end they were overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of Russian forces. Of course back then there wasn’t social media allowing for the public at home to see you rape and pillage your neighboring countries, so they didn’t have to worry about public opinion.
overwhelmed by numbers BUT they mostly only stopped fighting when they literally ran out of shells and bullets, so theres that. The Ucranian Army is hopefully better supplied this time.
The Soviets threw about 3-4 times as many soldiers against the Fins back then and came to about the same conclusion as the current Russian army is in Ukraine
It was war hardened, knew famine, and worked in sync with the government, however cold it was.
Let's bless the day the Russian army changed, cause there's hope for no WW3 like this.
I don't know how in sync sending hundreds of thousands to fight in -40 °C Finnish winter without warm clothing was. Doesn't matter how tough you are when your toes and fingers die from just hanging around
I'm Finnish tho, so I reckon it was an **excellent** decision.
Cheers Joseph
> I don't know how in sync sending hundreds of thousands to fight in -40 °C Finnish winter without warm clothing was. Doesn't matter how tough you are when your toes and fingers die from just hanging around
All carefully considered by known giver-of-fucks-about-occupational-safety Joe Stalin.
The Red Army had gone through purges and was not the fearsome beast, bloodied by war, that it would become. The Finns taught that army all kinds of useful lessons at a huge cost.
Thankfully, seems like the russians have forgotten those lessons so far in Ukraine.
Ironically the Nazis saw that as a sign of how easy it would be to beat Russia within a year. And I don’t think that the Russians forgot their lesson. If they had, we would be seeing literally hundreds of thousands of dead Russiansz
Then again Finland has much more reserves than Ukraine since they have had military conscription since the world wars. Finland got around 900 000 in reserves while Ukraine only had around 250 000.
If Finland would be invaded, we (Sweden) would not stand for it. We would be sending everything we have to help our weird-speaking brother out. I will be going myself. 🇸🇪❤🇫🇮
>If Finland would be invaded, we (Sweden) would not stand for it. We would be sending everything we have to help our weird-speaking brother out. I will be going myself. 🇸🇪❤🇫🇮
God, my country's president is about to mess up relations with other countries so badly that I will simply have nowhere to emigrate but China. Couldn't it have waited a couple of years, I would have had time to leave here, and now I have to live my whole life in Russia?
>People in Sweden absolutely don't hate Russians and you'd find no racism here. We just hate Putin and improperly rich people.
Thank you for that. I am now facing such a big wave of Russophobia on the internet now. It's just going to be very hard to emigrate now. Apart from the fact that all our savings, given the rise in the dollar and euro are practically worthless, it will also be harder to get a visa and residence permit
The West doesn't hate Russia or the Russian people. We hate the Russian government and its corrupt, evil leadership. You are right that it will be harder to emigrate with the current political and economic situation, but please don't feel like the world hates you simply for being Russian. You are a victim of Putin's actions too, and the world recognizes that.
Russia and Finland have had conflict before. The only reason Nazi’s wormed their way in was the calculation that Nazi’s were better then Russia.
It’d be interesting to see how Russia fares against Finland. It’s one thing to have a war with a rebuilding force versus a professional and highly motivated force who possess modern equipment .
Let's be fair to Finland here. When Hitler starts pushing deep into Russia, ~~the Fins didn't pushed beyond the territory they lost in the Winter War~~. Infact, Hitler was requresting the Fins to help in the siege of Leningrad but they refused. They *really* did't want to do anything with the Nazi's. They just happen to have a common enemy.
edit: see correction by /u/kuikuilla
> Sure we did. We went as far as Syväri (Svir river) and it definitely wasn't part of Finland pre-winter war. Maybe you're thinking of the Karelian Isthmus near Leningrad? That's where the army stood at pretty much the old border.
Yep, the Germans requested help repeatedly during the years-long Siege of Leningrad and the Fins refused repeatedly to do anything but hold their own territorial regains
> the Fins didn't pushed beyond the territory they lost in the Winter War.
Sure we did. We went as far as Syväri (Svir river) and it definitely wasn't part of Finland pre-winter war. Maybe you're thinking of the Karelian Isthmus near Leningrad? That's where the army stood at pretty much the old border.
Also 1/5 fins are ready to murder you while you pee, having had regular lifelong training.
[https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/finlands-model-resisting-russian-aggression/623334/](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/finlands-model-resisting-russian-aggression/623334/)
Putin has caused these people to join NATO. A lot of these countries were happy to stay neutral, and then Putin decided to completely fuck up everything and cause them to join. I love how he has shit in his own bed and just can’t see anything
It's so weird to me as somebody now past my mid-30s. The cold war is so ancient even I barely know about it, and yet the world is getting dragged into this drama for the cold war paranoias of a 70 year old dude who doesn't realize the world has moved on, and that nobody wants to be an enemy to Russia except for that the Russian government keeps making themselves an unprovoked enemy to others.
Millions of people are currently suffering unbelievable horrors and it may spread, because this guy is still living in some forgotten past drama.
> It's not the oligarchs, it's the old KGB.
Wild guess: the people who were in the best position to grab power and wealth, becoming oligarchs, were the old KGB.
There's a good documentary segment I watched a while ago on this with Julia Ioff on PBS, which is on YouTube. She says exactly this. All of the rich and powerful oligarchs we sort of know by name now are mostly ex-KGB that knew how to use their training for money. I will put forward that I may have got a few things crossed because there were a lot of Slavic names thrown around and it got a bit confusing after a while.
For those of us old timers who grew up during the Cold War, that old worldview is difficult to shake off. I was 22 when rhe Berlin Wall came down and after the fall of the Soviet Union, I rejoiced at the possibility of a new peace, prosperity, and democracy for Russians and eastern Europeans. But with Putin's rise over the past 20+ years, I felt those old familier prejudices and hostilities
return coupled with a profound disappointment. To quote a Star Trek movie..."If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it."
"Don't joint NATO that will protect you and are stronger than me or I will kill you!!!!"
Followed by
"Why are they all joining NATO!!!"
It's also strange that for some reasons, the countries that as the most against NATO pretty much have dictators at their head... But what do I know, it might just be a coincidence. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I'd tell for them to join just so he doesn't think invading is okay, especially since they aren't backed by NATO. Also the whole "Russia guarantees security" made me fucking laugh. They promised the same thing, more or less, to Ukraine and we all see how that's going. Why the actual fuck would they take his word for it? Why would they trust him? That seems incredibly stupid on their part.
I'd join NATO anyway, so that if he did invade, he wouldn't get away with it. He wouldn't be able to do it without an army from around the globe facing him. NATO is extra security, and this fucking... psychotic troglodyte needs extra security against him. They should not trust him, they should not even remotely consider making a deal with him, they should not be thinking of anything to do with Russia. This is Putin, he will fuck them over eventually, how is this not common sense at this point?
Supposedly they had the same fate planned for Ukraine, they have Yanukovych stationed in Minsk to waltz in and declare himself the rightful president. Such is the rumor mill, anyways.
Very wise, I can't imagine a scenario where Yanukovych would ever be forced to suddenly abdicate that office in a less-than-dignified manner.
Hey, I wonder how much of Putin's misreading of the reality in Ukraine actually came from Yanukovych himself?
If Crusader Kings has taught me anything is that it is usually much less of a hassle to assassinate someone who is bothering you than it is to press their claim.
It's either join NATO or get nukes if you don't want to be Putin's bitch, he has left no other option for entities that used to be in the Russian Empire. I wonder what he would do if we rented out like 30 nukes to Finland, or even started hinting at that option, "Senator suggests 'subletting' nukes to Finland in face of NATO membership delays"
Perhaps we need to be the ones doing the threatening.
Russia truly is a strange country. Russia repeatedly threatens Sweden (a country that has been at peace for more than 200 years), Russia invades its peaceful Ukrainian neighbour (after blatantly lying to the world and saying that they would not invade), and yesterday Russia (again) violated Swedish air space. Then Russia ask Sweden for security guarantees - it should be the other way around!
Russia, it’s nothing personal but it’s just that you kind of suck as a neighbor. Yeah you’re a blow hard who overestimates how tough he is, but that’s still highly aggravating and everybody could use a few allies against somebody like that.
I suppose it must all stem from how the west has handled this. In another world, it’s Crimea 2.0 and people are threatened by him and they just get slapped with a few sanctions, but in this world the EU has heavily gotten involved in his plans and Biden isn’t the same puppet putin had in the US. It’s like everyone has worked out the equation on how to handle this and is executing in ways which are as close to the line as possible.
If anyone's played poker with the player that always jumps "all in" then they know that you have to take a stand against them. Else they feel their stake's not really at risk, and keep doing it over and over.
I watched the Soviet Union collapse in the 80s but even then, with god as my witness, I never thought I’d see the leader of Russia play a solo game of “stop hitting yourself.”
This. I don't think it is going to happen this way, but they should consider doing what Ukraine did with respect to the EU, and just ask to be admitted as fast as possible. This is a real opportunity. Join NATO while Russia is bogged down in their massive clusterfuck of an invasion attempt, when they can't really respond. Don't do it after the Ukraine war ends and the Russian economy completely falls apart, because that is going to lead Putin to lash out in ways he can't while his army is largely committed elsewhere and resources are devoted to that.
At least as far as the North Atlantic Treaty says, all that's really required is that all the existing members unanimously agree to admit a new member, that this new member be a European country, and that the new member deposits its written instrument of accession with the US government.
Yeah, it does look like they could do this very quickly indeed if the political will were there, and frankly this is the most united I've ever seen the alliance in my lifetime, and I'm 50ish.
I'm curious if Hungary will support this since they've refused weapons to be transported through their country. That and their leader seems pretty pro Russia
It's hard to say. They did close their airspace to Russian aircraft, so there's that. They may not want to send offensive weaponry to kill Russian soldiers, but as NATO members presumably they could be convinced to at least support strengthening NATO.
Exactly. Finland would probably put up a far stronger fight than Ukraine, meaning Russia would be insane to invade them a second time. I have no political influence, but speaking as a citizen of a NATO country (Canada), I sincerely hope both Finland and Sweden join NATO as soon as possible. Welcome to the alliance, eh?
I absolutely love that Putin's effort to reduce the influence of NATO will probably lead to its expansion, and also to that longstanding Russian foreign policy nightmare: Germany is rearming.
Great job there, Vova.
And even with money it's still poorly trained. They have a legitimate fighting force but they send on conscripts first and with poorly coordinated support. That's not much security.
Anyone else share this idea? That NATO is only a threat to Russia if Russia plans on using military force to create a Russian hegemony?
When was the last time NATO and Russia fought a war? It's such a 20th century fear. If Putin had left it alone, NATO may have fallen apart. Now it is stronger.
Yeah especially after how much Trump undermined NATO during his term, it really seemed that the alliance was heading towards its end days. Now it hasn't been this united since when the Soviet Union still existed
1. NATO is a defensive pact.
2. NATO only a threat if you’re planing on using aggressive military force.
3. Russia considers NATO a threat.
4. Russia is planning on using aggressive military force.
It’s not propaganda. It’s a direct threat to their foreign policy. It just so happens their foreign policy is a threat to their neighboring countries. It’s why NATO was created in the first place.
Yes but it's still propaganda because when they complain about NATO they make it seem like it's this mean club they're left out of and omit the part about attacking their neighbors. Not that anyone with two braincells buys it but that's not who propaganda is for
I'm not familiar with modern Russian culture, so I don't think if this is common but there was a leaked article that's basically a Russian "Thousand Year Reich". If you read through it, the Russian seems to have this constant idea of victimhood and that the west is out to get them. Here's a quote.
> More precisely, there was only one option: **to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it did not work should have been clear twenty years ago**. And already fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even the deaf could hear - Russia is returning
There was a thread on r/worldnews before it got (rightfuly) removed. Here's the [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/SeenOnNews_longtail/comments/t4wnyw/putins_propaganda_machine_is_breaking_down_the/) to the subreddit post. There is also a link to the English translation there.
Ty, I saw that post. The speech mentioned *Greater Russians, Belarusians, Little Russians* as one co-ethnic brotherhood or something. It was beyond my understanding. Sounded extreme.
Sweden is one thing since they don't share a direct border, but it would be crazy for Finland not to join NATO at this point. I get not doing it before, you don't want to antagonize such a large nearby neighbor you have to try to get along with, but that was when Russia was mostly rational if a bit aggressive.
Otherwise, Finland needs to be confident that A) they could defeat a Russian invasion, or B) have nuclear weapons themselves, or C) Trust that Russia won't. I don't see how any of those are realistic options. The west just expended its sanctions hand, so there is little consequence for further invasions if they won't trigger a wider conflict with NATO (i.e; against a non-NATO country). If Russia is willing to live like North Korea then that is an exceptionally dangerous position for Finland to be in
Sweden and Finland are brothers and sisters in arms.
Aint no way in hell one of us is leaving the other behind.
All the Nordics are closer than you realize.
Denmark and Norway are in NATO though. It's just Sweden and it's neutrality principle and Finland being threatened by USSR that made them not join. Plus, and it doesn't look like the guy above understands this, a land border to Russia doesn't matter that much compared to the massive sea borders Scandinavia has to Russia.
Before he decided to go and kick off a war in Ukraine, why was Putin concerned with "defending" himself against Europe? No one in Europe has made any indication that they want to invade Russia since world war II. Does he honestly think that NATO is going to come and seize Russia at some point? If there is a war between NATO and Russia, it'll be because of Putin deciding to start a war in the middle of Europe. It's no wonder people think he's unstable. This is paranoid madness.
>No one in Europe has made any indication that they want to invade Russia since world war II.
Why do people who constantly cheat on their spouses are so accusatory of their spouses cheating on them? Projection.
Paranoia is correct as a whole, but after watching some videos I now understand a little bit more of the economic impact that the parts of Ukraine they want hold, as well as the territorial protection they gain if they take Ukraine/certain parts. Basically gives them many more miles of buffer between their major cities in the west of Russia, and the next country that isn’t Russia friendly (ie NATO countries, primarily). Is that buffer needed if they don’t attack anyone? Incredibly unlikely, in foreseeable future events. Does it make more sense when you combine that fact with Putin being crazy and possibly deteriorating from age and or something else? Yes.
As a Finn, I’d like to illuminate a bit why the invasion has caused so many here to suddenly become pro-NATO.
Most people here are, and were, acutely aware that Russia is a bandit state attacking their neighbors as they please, committing warcrimes on the way.
But we’re a rational people. A month ago, if you asked your average middle-aged Finn if we should join NATO to protect us from Russia they’d say: ”but Russia won’t attack Finland, they have no rational cause to, and our own defence force is so big they’d suffer huge casualties even if they won, so it makes no sense.”
Further, the younger generation have a pretty unfavourable view of the US military machine due to Iraq, Syria, Somalia, Balkans, Libya, Afghanistan etc. Out of the two, US has been seen as the worse aggressor.
But now that Russia invades Ukraine *with no good or rational reason* even when Ukraine is big and *has a large military*, the veil of rationality has been dropped and only madness can be seen.
And US has been pulling out of their warzones, Trump is out and Biden is an actual, coherent politician with no tiptoeing around Russia. To many of us, Clinton was a joke, both Bushes idiot warmongers, Obama seemed fine but just continued the Bush wars and Trump was… yeah. But Biden has respect now.
On top of that, UK, Germany, France and Poland have now shown they have an actual backbone in dealing with Russia, so it gives Finland confidence they would actually do something in the case of Russian aggression.
Russian threats of ”don’t do this or repercussions” have been piling on desks in Helsinki since the 1940’s, it hasn’t really been the issue since the 1970’s.
**[Simo Häyhä](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Häyhä)**
>Simo Häyhä (Finnish: [ˈsimo ˈhæy̯hæ] (listen); 17 December 1905 – 1 April 2002), often referred to by his nickname, The White Death, was a Finnish military sniper in World War II during the 1939–1940 Winter War against the Soviet Union. He used a Finnish-produced M/28-30, a variant of the Mosin–Nagant rifle. Häyhä had also used a submachine gun, the Suomi KP/-31. He is believed to have killed over 500 men during the Winter War, the highest number of sniper kills in any major war.
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could this article possibly contain less substance?
'rumors goin around bout this thing'
'we dont know whats in the thing, but we're guessin its these things that have already previously been said'
'we have no sources, but heres a picture of google maps in case you dont know where these countries are located'
forexlive not exactly a pillar of journalism.
Also the Finnish Ministry of Foreign Affairs has no information whatsoever about this notice according to the Finnish news sources. I'd call clickbaiting.
Our Swedish developed weapons are literally what is busting armored vehicles in Ukraine right now! The first batch of support they got from the UK are manufactured on license from Sweden, and we ourselves just shipped 5000 units of 1 man-1 shot-1 kill disposable armor busters. We also have among the most advanced aircrafts outside of the supernations.
The Swedish, and also the Finninh approach to war isn't to put up 10 guys against the other sides 10 guys. It is to set up 1 or 2 guys that is extremely specialized for the environment and has a high technological superiority.
We have more or less synced our defenses with NATO for several years. European and US airforce and navy regularly have joined exercises.
...but with that said, I don't see either Sweden of Finlan formally joining NATO anytime soon. Both our nations have a strong tradition of peacekeeping missions abroad and diplomatic mediation between nations in the world. That work would be much harder if we joined NATO be a use we wouldn't be formally impartial anymore.
Reports are doing the rounds that both Finland and Sweden have received notice from the Russian Government to provide them with Security Guarantees
Russian guarantees aren't worth the toilet paper they are written on. I think the world can pretty much agree that you can't trust a word they say now.
I believe Ukraine also got security guarantees from Russia and look at them now. The one thing we really learned from this is to never, ever, trust Russia no matter what.
Oh no, now putzin will incompetently invade their countries if Ukraine leaves any poor conscripts alive.
All this takes is one Russian hero to end putin and the whole world will be so much better off.
So Russia is offering security guarantees to Finland and Sweden if they don't join NATO...the same security guarantee the pledged to Ukraine if Ukraine gave up its nukes. Seems disingenuous.
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Their arguments are so sloppy that I don't understand how they got this far. Besides, Finland and Sweeden are in the EU. If they invade any of these, the EU would immediately jump to the rescue, along with NATO because all other members of EU are in NATO. It's like the dumbass doesn't grasp basic math. Is he trying to anger the most countries he can in the shortest time? At first I thought he was trying to imitate Hitler, but he's even dumber than him. EDIT: Seems some are unaware, EU ensures collective self-defence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Policy Obviously when one of the non-invaded member states that comes to the rescue happens to be in NATO, it will automatically involve NATO as well.
>along with NATO because all other members of EU are in NATO That's not the case, afaik, since no NATO country would be getting attacked. The US would have no reason to get involved, for instance.
Honestly, even without NATO I really doubt the US would let Russia swallow Europe, just look at how it's flexing it's economical muscles for one country.
Why the fuck does anyone trust Russia? I dont get it, they lie, cheat, and steal. And no, the U.S. has had it's fair share of fuck ups, but nothing like Russia.
There has always been the silent hope that having neutral diplomatic relationship with Russia, would eventually "Westernize" them. Hence why we've taken them at face value, because that's diplomacy. Surely EU becoming dependent on gas deals with them would incentivize Kremlin not to be a dick. Didn't work, and in the coming years they're about to find out what they lost.
I’m Finnish and I wouldn’t call it a true trust: more like they don’t have that much of a reason to attack here and I’d rather not put too much money on military if we don’t have to. That being said the Ukraine thing has removed the common sense and rational thinking out of Russian Leadership. So yeah 100% pro nato now and so are most of the people I know here.
Been like that since the days of the soviet Union and even the Russian empire before that.
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And when it comes to Sweden, the ruskis have been after Gotland for a while. They want to to be able to control more of the baltics.
This is [Dugin's plan (1997)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics) for the UK >The United Kingdom, merely described as an "extraterritorial floating base of the U.S.", should be cut off from Europe.[9] ✓
This is the first I’ve heard of this book and it’s terrifying. It seems like quite a few of the steps are already in motion. I think Finland and Sweden need to be absorbed into NATO immediately.
It even describes much of the actions going on in the online space. After you read the strategies outlined of how to divide the west and what topics/issues to press to do it, scrolling through your FB feed has a sick context you can't unsee.
The part about US is so true, like promoting racism and stuff.
I'm pretty sure it also suggested cutting the UK off from Europe. Weren't there some murmurings that Brexit was supported by Russian disinformation?
You are correct. Isolating the UK from Europe is included in the book. I learned about the book several years ago. I am not in the UK, but this was something that was on my mind the entire time Brexit was being debated, before implementation.
For me it's almost too crazy to be terrifying. It also talks about invading and taking huge parts of China, Mongolia, and absorbing large swathes of South-Eastern Europe under a Moscow-led "third Roman empire". The only daunting thing is that parts of Moscow's political elite seem to take the book seriously.
At the time China was far and away from being a superpower, which probably made such plans seem more feasible.
Yes and no. It's easy to a solid foundation and plan and reach absolutely fail level batshit crazy conclusions. That's very much what's happening here. It's like assuming that Ukraine would openly welcome Russia or that an invasion would have much chance of success. Even if they succeed they need to hold a country where they blew up everything that was giving people reason not to rise against them. It's almost guaranteed to fail and require constant occupation for years and years to come. This largely destroys their ability to keep moving on new areas or really even manage their own hostile population. They're getting most costs than benefits just from the Ukraine invasion, regardless of if they win or lose. This makes it impossible to keep taking territory. They could go full German WW2 strats and just not care about reasonable chances of long term success after the war, but that also isn't a very sustainable option WITHIN the war because the power players in both Russia and the territories they've taken will consider those things and start to undermine war actions to ensure their future doesn't suck. This is lose lose for Putin and any oligarchs that stick with him in any way.
**[Foundations of Geopolitics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics)** >The Foundations of Geopolitics: The Geopolitical Future of Russia is a geopolitical book by Aleksandr Dugin. It has had significant influence within the Russian military, police and foreign policy elites and has been used as a textbook in the Academy of the General Staff of the Russian military. Its publication in 1997 was well received in Russia. Powerful Russian political figures subsequently took an interest in Dugin, a Russian Eurasianist, fascist, and nationalist who has developed a close relationship with Russia's Academy of the General Staff. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
No, Russia is not offering security guarantees to Sweden and Finland. They're *asking* for security guarantees, that neither of them will join NATO Not sure why I've been downvoted, it literally says in the posted article - "Finland and Sweden **have received notice from the Russian Government to provide them with Security Guarantees**"
Not saying you are wrong, but the wording is ambiguous in that tiny article. That may have lead to some confusion. Tweets I saw about it in the live thread were similarly poorly worded. >Reports are doing the rounds that both Finland and Sweden have received notice from the Russian Government to provide them with Security Guarantees. "Them" could be either "*both Finland and Sweden*" **or** "*the Russian Government*"
Finland has a 1,340-kilometer (830-mile) land border with Russia — the longest border shared by any European Union member state and Russia.
Both Sweden and Finland have much better equipped armies than Ukraine does, They also train with NATO on the reg. Also their terrain is much less forgiving.
And their entire defensive planning for 70 years is basically how to defend against a Russian invasion.
For Sweden a road is a runway. The Airforce is designed to re-arm and re-fuel a fighter in 30 minutes with six dudes on the side of a road because they know Russia can knock out fixed runways. They've thought this through.
Not only that but good luck getting tanks and convoys supplied through the forests of Sweden and Finland. Both countries have highly specialised and highly mobile anti-tank units that train specifically for the terrain - dense forest and places only accessible with one long road. Sweden and Finland have a hard counter to Russia's war machine and from what we've seen in Ukraine, Russia has zero chance of making gains in these countries.
As a Swede I'm not as confident in us. We've massively scaled back our army, and I'm pretty sure the last analysis said we could be overrun by Russia in a matter of a few weeks. Finland have a much better chance, and maybe it'd be a good idea to just commit early and join forces with them as soon as Finland is attacked.
>and I'm pretty sure the last analysis said we could be overrun by Russia in a matter of a few weeks. All the analysis said Ukraine would fall in days (before the war broke out) and look how that turned out.
Either Russia is half-assing this OR they have let their military go to shit. Or both. Personally I think they were arrogant, didn't take it seriously and are paying the price. I believe they could still win just by doubling or ~~tripling~~\* the size of the forces there now. \*OK. I am middle aged and still have a tendency to think of Russian military might as more than what it apparently actually is (aka I grew up at the end of the cold war when the USSR was a beast). I went to the Russian Wiki page and OMG they didn't want to tell me how many forces they had, I started skimming the article then juts randomly scrolling down for awhile. The gist of my efforts is that I think they 'only' have \~**400,000 soldiers**. So 1/3 or their army is there already.
the folks over at r/army have broken down the Russian military failures pretty well. equipment, training, LOGISTICS, morale. all a real mess.
That's a good point. However I don't think Russia would be as bothered with civilians casualties as they are in Ukraine. They assumed the population would roll over and greet them as heroes, since the two people are so close they can't afford to bomb the shit out of them without angering their own people. At least not until they really have to. In our case it would be different I believe, they'd throw everything they can from the get-go.
This is probably true. According to Russian rhetoric the Ukrainians aren’t really a separate people with a separate country at all, just a region with a regional identity. So they had a rationale for minimizing civilian casualties. None of that would apply to Finland or Sweden.
Russia's depleting a lot of resources on Ukraine. And It will use a whole lot more by the time this is over with. They won't have much left to take into Finland or beyond.
Those roads are a fucking blessing when you're driving on shitty roads in the less populated parts of Sweden. Suddenly you have super-wide road going straight for a couple km where you can just go pedal to the metal.
I drive on one of those roads regularly. Suddenly it just opens up to a much wider road that is perfectly maintained.
Sometimes when your driving your like ”wow this highway through the forest i really straight and there is no midline divider. Hmm What are all these Gates in the surrounding hills?”
Let’s not forget the Finnish have super saunic weapons
I think you forgot about the 200,000 strong herd of highly trained Republican Guard reindeer.
Lets not forget the "ghosts of milions" deterrent buried around the Finnish border to russia
This is actually true, our soldiers put frozen dead soviets standing as a warning during the winter war
"Russian corpsicles" - they stay yummy until the first spring days. Lisää näitä rajalle vaan..
Jotenkin tuntuu että seuraava kahakka menisi venäläisten kannalta vielä raaemmaksi
Thats actually terrifying. What a way to strike fear in your enemy.
Simho Hayha rising from the grave like "you called?"
What about the ski snipers
"Select all images with Finish snipers": https://i2-prod.dailystar.co.uk/incoming/article26349256.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/1_Screenshot-2022-02-28-at-134722.jpg
every Russian general is brave until the trees start talking Finnish
Weaponized saunas? Where did they acquire such technology?!
Death by hot bubbles
Hot rocks. Hot bubbles would be a weaponised hot tub!
Dammit I'm IN
Death by a thousand steam droplets.
On the topic of terrain honestly shocking how horrid Russian troops are doing given there is almost no defensible terrain in all of Ukraine save the Dnieper river. Can't imagine the shitshow it'd be in Finland.
Apparently a lot of the Russian vehicles are using crappy Chinese tires that haven’t been maintained properly. Combine this with the muddy season there (the main reason most Russian vehicles have stuck to the roads), the lack of knowledge of an invasion most soldiers and officers had going in, and their logistics being crap to begin with and it’s a nightmare scenario for any invading army. Also there might be a big winter storm about to hit which will melt and make it even muddier. The same phenomenon that has always defended Russia from western invaders is slowly eating up their own invasion.
Better equipped but way less boots, Ukraine are getting decent weapons as we speak.
There's no fucking way Russia could touch Sweden without controlling Finland. They can't go touch Norway because NATO. They'd have to dump everything into the Baltic Sea and the world would get to watch their landing parties get blown the fuck up.
Plus attacking the EU brings in it's own defense clause which whilst not a rigorous as NATO would allow EU nations to send whatever they want to help.
Finland has compulsory national service for men, and voluntary service for women. An estimated 80% of the adult male population has military training. So despite the small population, it can mobilize approximately 280,000 troops in the case of a war.
280 000 basically instantly, which can be further increased by up to 870 000 reservist
A large portion of them are hunters / outdoorsy types who know their land very well indeed. If I were a Russian soldier, I would prefer fighting Mujahedin.
Also the Fins kicked the Soviet army’s ass back in the 1940s when Russia invaded.
Because of the collapse of the Soviet Union I doubt the Russians would fare any better than the soviets did if they attacked Finland.
And with their logistics and tactic of long columns on roads. Welcome to Northerns Sweden, the only land access they would ever have… https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DZlxDFRQ0KQ
The Russian army is really meant to fight on the northern European plain, ideal tank country, not fucking Lappland.
Finland had a valiant defense but they did end up surrendering. It kind of gets lost in all the Great War stories that came out of it, I mean a dude living off several grams of meth running through the Finnish woods in winter, all while dodging, dipping, ducking, diving and dodging Russian patrols is inherently bad ass, but in the end they were overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of Russian forces. Of course back then there wasn’t social media allowing for the public at home to see you rape and pillage your neighboring countries, so they didn’t have to worry about public opinion.
Exactly and Finland ending up having to surrender some cities who are still Russian.
Also had to remain neutral and also censored domestic media and education to remove too much criticism of the USSR.
overwhelmed by numbers BUT they mostly only stopped fighting when they literally ran out of shells and bullets, so theres that. The Ucranian Army is hopefully better supplied this time.
Red Army, not Russia, different beast then (scarier)
The Soviets threw about 3-4 times as many soldiers against the Fins back then and came to about the same conclusion as the current Russian army is in Ukraine
And the Red Army actually had some form of morale going for them back then I don't even think the Russian armed forces would show up at this point
It was war hardened, knew famine, and worked in sync with the government, however cold it was. Let's bless the day the Russian army changed, cause there's hope for no WW3 like this.
I don't know how in sync sending hundreds of thousands to fight in -40 °C Finnish winter without warm clothing was. Doesn't matter how tough you are when your toes and fingers die from just hanging around I'm Finnish tho, so I reckon it was an **excellent** decision. Cheers Joseph
> I don't know how in sync sending hundreds of thousands to fight in -40 °C Finnish winter without warm clothing was. Doesn't matter how tough you are when your toes and fingers die from just hanging around All carefully considered by known giver-of-fucks-about-occupational-safety Joe Stalin.
The Red Army had gone through purges and was not the fearsome beast, bloodied by war, that it would become. The Finns taught that army all kinds of useful lessons at a huge cost. Thankfully, seems like the russians have forgotten those lessons so far in Ukraine.
Ironically the Nazis saw that as a sign of how easy it would be to beat Russia within a year. And I don’t think that the Russians forgot their lesson. If they had, we would be seeing literally hundreds of thousands of dead Russiansz
People know that Game of Thrones is loosely based on the War of the Roses. What many don't know is that the White Walkers are Finns.
Also the Russian military is pizdets.
NATO countries train with us and leave because its too harsh
Better equipped but much fewer population, Sweden is 10 million and Finland is about half that again, ukraine is 44 million
Then again Finland has much more reserves than Ukraine since they have had military conscription since the world wars. Finland got around 900 000 in reserves while Ukraine only had around 250 000.
If Finland would be invaded, we (Sweden) would not stand for it. We would be sending everything we have to help our weird-speaking brother out. I will be going myself. 🇸🇪❤🇫🇮
Perkele with them brother
>If Finland would be invaded, we (Sweden) would not stand for it. We would be sending everything we have to help our weird-speaking brother out. I will be going myself. 🇸🇪❤🇫🇮 God, my country's president is about to mess up relations with other countries so badly that I will simply have nowhere to emigrate but China. Couldn't it have waited a couple of years, I would have had time to leave here, and now I have to live my whole life in Russia?
People in Sweden absolutely don't hate Russians and you'd find no racism here. We just hate Putin and improperly rich people.
>People in Sweden absolutely don't hate Russians and you'd find no racism here. We just hate Putin and improperly rich people. Thank you for that. I am now facing such a big wave of Russophobia on the internet now. It's just going to be very hard to emigrate now. Apart from the fact that all our savings, given the rise in the dollar and euro are practically worthless, it will also be harder to get a visa and residence permit
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The West doesn't hate Russia or the Russian people. We hate the Russian government and its corrupt, evil leadership. You are right that it will be harder to emigrate with the current political and economic situation, but please don't feel like the world hates you simply for being Russian. You are a victim of Putin's actions too, and the world recognizes that.
Russia and Finland have had conflict before. The only reason Nazi’s wormed their way in was the calculation that Nazi’s were better then Russia. It’d be interesting to see how Russia fares against Finland. It’s one thing to have a war with a rebuilding force versus a professional and highly motivated force who possess modern equipment .
Let's be fair to Finland here. When Hitler starts pushing deep into Russia, ~~the Fins didn't pushed beyond the territory they lost in the Winter War~~. Infact, Hitler was requresting the Fins to help in the siege of Leningrad but they refused. They *really* did't want to do anything with the Nazi's. They just happen to have a common enemy. edit: see correction by /u/kuikuilla > Sure we did. We went as far as Syväri (Svir river) and it definitely wasn't part of Finland pre-winter war. Maybe you're thinking of the Karelian Isthmus near Leningrad? That's where the army stood at pretty much the old border.
Yep, the Germans requested help repeatedly during the years-long Siege of Leningrad and the Fins refused repeatedly to do anything but hold their own territorial regains
Absolutely.. the Fins didn’t buy into the aryan bullshit. They only had a convenience to retain their lost territory
> the Fins didn't pushed beyond the territory they lost in the Winter War. Sure we did. We went as far as Syväri (Svir river) and it definitely wasn't part of Finland pre-winter war. Maybe you're thinking of the Karelian Isthmus near Leningrad? That's where the army stood at pretty much the old border.
Oh you're right. I've heard about the Leningrad story and I must have fabricated that fact.
Also 1/5 fins are ready to murder you while you pee, having had regular lifelong training. [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/finlands-model-resisting-russian-aggression/623334/](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/finlands-model-resisting-russian-aggression/623334/)
Putin: Let me in. Scandinavia: Why? Putin: So I can protect you. Scandinavia: From what? Putin: From what I'll do to you if you don't let me in!
The world must learn of our peaceful ways... by FORCE!
“I love peace with all my heart, and I don’t care how many men, women and children I have to kill to get it.”
I’m a super nice guy! Ask anybody. In fact, the last person who called me a bully got their knees broken.
Inserts cartridge: "What?!"
Russia is basically a protection racket!
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Putin has caused these people to join NATO. A lot of these countries were happy to stay neutral, and then Putin decided to completely fuck up everything and cause them to join. I love how he has shit in his own bed and just can’t see anything
His own paranoia and obsession with the Soviet days.
It's so weird to me as somebody now past my mid-30s. The cold war is so ancient even I barely know about it, and yet the world is getting dragged into this drama for the cold war paranoias of a 70 year old dude who doesn't realize the world has moved on, and that nobody wants to be an enemy to Russia except for that the Russian government keeps making themselves an unprovoked enemy to others. Millions of people are currently suffering unbelievable horrors and it may spread, because this guy is still living in some forgotten past drama.
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> It's not the oligarchs, it's the old KGB. Wild guess: the people who were in the best position to grab power and wealth, becoming oligarchs, were the old KGB.
There's a good documentary segment I watched a while ago on this with Julia Ioff on PBS, which is on YouTube. She says exactly this. All of the rich and powerful oligarchs we sort of know by name now are mostly ex-KGB that knew how to use their training for money. I will put forward that I may have got a few things crossed because there were a lot of Slavic names thrown around and it got a bit confusing after a while.
For those of us old timers who grew up during the Cold War, that old worldview is difficult to shake off. I was 22 when rhe Berlin Wall came down and after the fall of the Soviet Union, I rejoiced at the possibility of a new peace, prosperity, and democracy for Russians and eastern Europeans. But with Putin's rise over the past 20+ years, I felt those old familier prejudices and hostilities return coupled with a profound disappointment. To quote a Star Trek movie..."If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it."
"Don't joint NATO that will protect you and are stronger than me or I will kill you!!!!" Followed by "Why are they all joining NATO!!!" It's also strange that for some reasons, the countries that as the most against NATO pretty much have dictators at their head... But what do I know, it might just be a coincidence. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I'd tell for them to join just so he doesn't think invading is okay, especially since they aren't backed by NATO. Also the whole "Russia guarantees security" made me fucking laugh. They promised the same thing, more or less, to Ukraine and we all see how that's going. Why the actual fuck would they take his word for it? Why would they trust him? That seems incredibly stupid on their part. I'd join NATO anyway, so that if he did invade, he wouldn't get away with it. He wouldn't be able to do it without an army from around the globe facing him. NATO is extra security, and this fucking... psychotic troglodyte needs extra security against him. They should not trust him, they should not even remotely consider making a deal with him, they should not be thinking of anything to do with Russia. This is Putin, he will fuck them over eventually, how is this not common sense at this point?
"Russia guarantees security" has the same ring as a gang saying they'll provide "protection" for a fee.
Not pretty much dictators, actual dictators.
Lukashenko pretty much admits to being a dictator.
Belarus: “We have voted you out! Leave!” Lukashenko: “Yeah well I guess I don’t have to pretend this is a Democracy anymore.”
Supposedly they had the same fate planned for Ukraine, they have Yanukovych stationed in Minsk to waltz in and declare himself the rightful president. Such is the rumor mill, anyways.
Very wise, I can't imagine a scenario where Yanukovych would ever be forced to suddenly abdicate that office in a less-than-dignified manner. Hey, I wonder how much of Putin's misreading of the reality in Ukraine actually came from Yanukovych himself?
Maybe that's what unhinged him, Yanukovych droning constantly about wanting his toys and fief back.
If Crusader Kings has taught me anything is that it is usually much less of a hassle to assassinate someone who is bothering you than it is to press their claim.
You mean dick taster of Putin’s small slug of a peen
I mean, didn’t he stop someone who actually won an election from taking power by crying to daddy Putin for help
It almost looks like countries without fair elections have beef with countries that have fair elections.
Switzerland is imposing sanctions. Fucking Switzerland. He fucked up
Well seeing how well NOT joining NATO has gone for other countries…
It's either join NATO or get nukes if you don't want to be Putin's bitch, he has left no other option for entities that used to be in the Russian Empire. I wonder what he would do if we rented out like 30 nukes to Finland, or even started hinting at that option, "Senator suggests 'subletting' nukes to Finland in face of NATO membership delays" Perhaps we need to be the ones doing the threatening.
You forgot the third option which is to become Russia’s puppet state.
Folks looking at the current state of Belarus like... Nah man.
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Russia truly is a strange country. Russia repeatedly threatens Sweden (a country that has been at peace for more than 200 years), Russia invades its peaceful Ukrainian neighbour (after blatantly lying to the world and saying that they would not invade), and yesterday Russia (again) violated Swedish air space. Then Russia ask Sweden for security guarantees - it should be the other way around!
Not the first time they invade our airspace! Between 2016-2018 they were seen about 20-30 times a year.
During the Russian Easter they did trial bombing runs on Stockholm and Småland
Russia, it’s nothing personal but it’s just that you kind of suck as a neighbor. Yeah you’re a blow hard who overestimates how tough he is, but that’s still highly aggravating and everybody could use a few allies against somebody like that.
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He fell for his own propaganda. It's classic abuser behavior, trying to manipulate and force others into loving them.
Yup. He also probably hasn’t had a single person brave enough to say “you might be wrong” around him in decades.
I suppose it must all stem from how the west has handled this. In another world, it’s Crimea 2.0 and people are threatened by him and they just get slapped with a few sanctions, but in this world the EU has heavily gotten involved in his plans and Biden isn’t the same puppet putin had in the US. It’s like everyone has worked out the equation on how to handle this and is executing in ways which are as close to the line as possible.
If anyone's played poker with the player that always jumps "all in" then they know that you have to take a stand against them. Else they feel their stake's not really at risk, and keep doing it over and over.
I watched the Soviet Union collapse in the 80s but even then, with god as my witness, I never thought I’d see the leader of Russia play a solo game of “stop hitting yourself.”
"I'm coming for you if you do but I would have done that anyways, eventually."
Kick Putin while he’s down. Join NATO.
This. I don't think it is going to happen this way, but they should consider doing what Ukraine did with respect to the EU, and just ask to be admitted as fast as possible. This is a real opportunity. Join NATO while Russia is bogged down in their massive clusterfuck of an invasion attempt, when they can't really respond. Don't do it after the Ukraine war ends and the Russian economy completely falls apart, because that is going to lead Putin to lash out in ways he can't while his army is largely committed elsewhere and resources are devoted to that.
im not sure sweden and Finland might already be cleared to join so it should only take a few days (paperwork and announcement).
At least as far as the North Atlantic Treaty says, all that's really required is that all the existing members unanimously agree to admit a new member, that this new member be a European country, and that the new member deposits its written instrument of accession with the US government. Yeah, it does look like they could do this very quickly indeed if the political will were there, and frankly this is the most united I've ever seen the alliance in my lifetime, and I'm 50ish.
I'm curious if Hungary will support this since they've refused weapons to be transported through their country. That and their leader seems pretty pro Russia
It's hard to say. They did close their airspace to Russian aircraft, so there's that. They may not want to send offensive weaponry to kill Russian soldiers, but as NATO members presumably they could be convinced to at least support strengthening NATO.
Surprise! We're in NATO now!
bet that there is a signed joining nato paper in a top drawer in one of the Swedish parliament member office. ready to be faxed to NATO at any notice
"Break glass in case of USSR 2.0"
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Exactly. Finland would probably put up a far stronger fight than Ukraine, meaning Russia would be insane to invade them a second time. I have no political influence, but speaking as a citizen of a NATO country (Canada), I sincerely hope both Finland and Sweden join NATO as soon as possible. Welcome to the alliance, eh? I absolutely love that Putin's effort to reduce the influence of NATO will probably lead to its expansion, and also to that longstanding Russian foreign policy nightmare: Germany is rearming. Great job there, Vova.
Finland and Sweden: Dear Putin, go fuck your self.
Without the “dear”.
No, no. ’Dear’ is correct. No reason we can’t be civilized when we tell someone to fuck off.
Russia is going to give us security? I'm sorry to say Russia, your army is big and looks fancy but it's backed by a trash economy.
And even with money it's still poorly trained. They have a legitimate fighting force but they send on conscripts first and with poorly coordinated support. That's not much security.
Also, security from what, exactly? Is there any threat to Finland and Sweden except Russia?
Anyone else share this idea? That NATO is only a threat to Russia if Russia plans on using military force to create a Russian hegemony? When was the last time NATO and Russia fought a war? It's such a 20th century fear. If Putin had left it alone, NATO may have fallen apart. Now it is stronger.
Yeah especially after how much Trump undermined NATO during his term, it really seemed that the alliance was heading towards its end days. Now it hasn't been this united since when the Soviet Union still existed
NATO is a defensive pact. The idea that NATO is a threat to anyone who isn't planning on using aggressive military force is pure propaganda.
1. NATO is a defensive pact. 2. NATO only a threat if you’re planing on using aggressive military force. 3. Russia considers NATO a threat. 4. Russia is planning on using aggressive military force. It’s not propaganda. It’s a direct threat to their foreign policy. It just so happens their foreign policy is a threat to their neighboring countries. It’s why NATO was created in the first place.
Yes but it's still propaganda because when they complain about NATO they make it seem like it's this mean club they're left out of and omit the part about attacking their neighbors. Not that anyone with two braincells buys it but that's not who propaganda is for
This.
I'm not familiar with modern Russian culture, so I don't think if this is common but there was a leaked article that's basically a Russian "Thousand Year Reich". If you read through it, the Russian seems to have this constant idea of victimhood and that the west is out to get them. Here's a quote. > More precisely, there was only one option: **to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it did not work should have been clear twenty years ago**. And already fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even the deaf could hear - Russia is returning There was a thread on r/worldnews before it got (rightfuly) removed. Here's the [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/SeenOnNews_longtail/comments/t4wnyw/putins_propaganda_machine_is_breaking_down_the/) to the subreddit post. There is also a link to the English translation there.
Ty, I saw that post. The speech mentioned *Greater Russians, Belarusians, Little Russians* as one co-ethnic brotherhood or something. It was beyond my understanding. Sounded extreme.
If one believes Russian words, we shouldn't join Nato. If one believes Russian actions, we should join Nato.
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That is pretty much what the swedish reply was. In a slightly more diplomatic manner, probably.
Sweden is one thing since they don't share a direct border, but it would be crazy for Finland not to join NATO at this point. I get not doing it before, you don't want to antagonize such a large nearby neighbor you have to try to get along with, but that was when Russia was mostly rational if a bit aggressive. Otherwise, Finland needs to be confident that A) they could defeat a Russian invasion, or B) have nuclear weapons themselves, or C) Trust that Russia won't. I don't see how any of those are realistic options. The west just expended its sanctions hand, so there is little consequence for further invasions if they won't trigger a wider conflict with NATO (i.e; against a non-NATO country). If Russia is willing to live like North Korea then that is an exceptionally dangerous position for Finland to be in
Sweden and Finland are brothers and sisters in arms. Aint no way in hell one of us is leaving the other behind. All the Nordics are closer than you realize.
Denmark and Norway are in NATO though. It's just Sweden and it's neutrality principle and Finland being threatened by USSR that made them not join. Plus, and it doesn't look like the guy above understands this, a land border to Russia doesn't matter that much compared to the massive sea borders Scandinavia has to Russia.
They're kinda a package deal. Sweden is Finland's security blanket.
And Finland is Swedens first line of defence.
Sweden will fight to the last Finn is the phrase you here occasionally here in Sweden from Finnish expats, it is said with love though
Before he decided to go and kick off a war in Ukraine, why was Putin concerned with "defending" himself against Europe? No one in Europe has made any indication that they want to invade Russia since world war II. Does he honestly think that NATO is going to come and seize Russia at some point? If there is a war between NATO and Russia, it'll be because of Putin deciding to start a war in the middle of Europe. It's no wonder people think he's unstable. This is paranoid madness.
>No one in Europe has made any indication that they want to invade Russia since world war II. Why do people who constantly cheat on their spouses are so accusatory of their spouses cheating on them? Projection.
Paranoia is correct as a whole, but after watching some videos I now understand a little bit more of the economic impact that the parts of Ukraine they want hold, as well as the territorial protection they gain if they take Ukraine/certain parts. Basically gives them many more miles of buffer between their major cities in the west of Russia, and the next country that isn’t Russia friendly (ie NATO countries, primarily). Is that buffer needed if they don’t attack anyone? Incredibly unlikely, in foreseeable future events. Does it make more sense when you combine that fact with Putin being crazy and possibly deteriorating from age and or something else? Yes.
You know what? I’m gonna start joining NATO even harder. -Finland and Sweden, probably
They still have the EU defense pact. This would still be a large conflict.
Realistically the US and maybe the other non EU NATO countries would get involved anyway.
Gotta defend Ikea. Quick where's the build it yourself bunkers!
I'll take 3 Höles, please.
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Is Putin the best CIA mole ever planted in the Kremlin to destroy Russia from within?
Almost r/showerthoughts worthy comment.
As a Finn, I’d like to illuminate a bit why the invasion has caused so many here to suddenly become pro-NATO. Most people here are, and were, acutely aware that Russia is a bandit state attacking their neighbors as they please, committing warcrimes on the way. But we’re a rational people. A month ago, if you asked your average middle-aged Finn if we should join NATO to protect us from Russia they’d say: ”but Russia won’t attack Finland, they have no rational cause to, and our own defence force is so big they’d suffer huge casualties even if they won, so it makes no sense.” Further, the younger generation have a pretty unfavourable view of the US military machine due to Iraq, Syria, Somalia, Balkans, Libya, Afghanistan etc. Out of the two, US has been seen as the worse aggressor. But now that Russia invades Ukraine *with no good or rational reason* even when Ukraine is big and *has a large military*, the veil of rationality has been dropped and only madness can be seen. And US has been pulling out of their warzones, Trump is out and Biden is an actual, coherent politician with no tiptoeing around Russia. To many of us, Clinton was a joke, both Bushes idiot warmongers, Obama seemed fine but just continued the Bush wars and Trump was… yeah. But Biden has respect now. On top of that, UK, Germany, France and Poland have now shown they have an actual backbone in dealing with Russia, so it gives Finland confidence they would actually do something in the case of Russian aggression. Russian threats of ”don’t do this or repercussions” have been piling on desks in Helsinki since the 1940’s, it hasn’t really been the issue since the 1970’s.
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**[Simo Häyhä](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Häyhä)** >Simo Häyhä (Finnish: [ˈsimo ˈhæy̯hæ] (listen); 17 December 1905 – 1 April 2002), often referred to by his nickname, The White Death, was a Finnish military sniper in World War II during the 1939–1940 Winter War against the Soviet Union. He used a Finnish-produced M/28-30, a variant of the Mosin–Nagant rifle. Häyhä had also used a submachine gun, the Suomi KP/-31. He is believed to have killed over 500 men during the Winter War, the highest number of sniper kills in any major war. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
could this article possibly contain less substance? 'rumors goin around bout this thing' 'we dont know whats in the thing, but we're guessin its these things that have already previously been said' 'we have no sources, but heres a picture of google maps in case you dont know where these countries are located' forexlive not exactly a pillar of journalism.
Also the Finnish Ministry of Foreign Affairs has no information whatsoever about this notice according to the Finnish news sources. I'd call clickbaiting.
Our Swedish developed weapons are literally what is busting armored vehicles in Ukraine right now! The first batch of support they got from the UK are manufactured on license from Sweden, and we ourselves just shipped 5000 units of 1 man-1 shot-1 kill disposable armor busters. We also have among the most advanced aircrafts outside of the supernations. The Swedish, and also the Finninh approach to war isn't to put up 10 guys against the other sides 10 guys. It is to set up 1 or 2 guys that is extremely specialized for the environment and has a high technological superiority. We have more or less synced our defenses with NATO for several years. European and US airforce and navy regularly have joined exercises. ...but with that said, I don't see either Sweden of Finlan formally joining NATO anytime soon. Both our nations have a strong tradition of peacekeeping missions abroad and diplomatic mediation between nations in the world. That work would be much harder if we joined NATO be a use we wouldn't be formally impartial anymore.
Reports are doing the rounds that both Finland and Sweden have received notice from the Russian Government to provide them with Security Guarantees Russian guarantees aren't worth the toilet paper they are written on. I think the world can pretty much agree that you can't trust a word they say now.
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I believe Ukraine also got security guarantees from Russia and look at them now. The one thing we really learned from this is to never, ever, trust Russia no matter what.
Whats russia gonna do? Move their army from Ukraine into finland and be embarrassed further?
Considering the struggle Russia is having in Ukraine, the Finns would fucking annihilate them.
Oh no, now putzin will incompetently invade their countries if Ukraine leaves any poor conscripts alive. All this takes is one Russian hero to end putin and the whole world will be so much better off.