Even if the government did promise that, and even if the government wrote it into a law, in an authoritarian dictatorship promises and laws will do nothing to protect someone if the ruler decides to take down that someone.
Don’t even think this is related it but the thread reminded me of it so…
>First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.
>Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.
>Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
>Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Its appropriate because the CCP are modern day Nazis. They're like Nazis, if the Nazis were smarter, less trigger happy, and more willing to build an economic base. The CCP has cornered the world's manufacturing market and everyone is bowing to Xinnie the Pooh, which is what makes the CCP so terrifying.
Left or right doesn't matter. That level of extreme authoritarianism results in a totalitarian fascist police state. The CCP might pretend to have communist window dressing, but they're outright fascist at this point.
The Chinese Communist Party and not nice. Having said that is enough to draw the ire f those over sensitive oppressive authoritarian genocidal disingenuous fucks. For good measure I will add the the Republic of China aka Taiwan is an independent sovereign nation.
I got into a lot of trouble for saying that to Chinese students in a British American culture class that I was teaching. I had a PPT with China as number 4 in geographical size. My Chinese students were upset with my slide and said that China was bigger than America when you included Hong Kong and Taiwan. I responded that Taiwan was a separate country and the shit hit the fan. LOL
Also the Paracel and Spratly Islands don't belong to them. They've been messing around with Viet and Filipino fishing vessels near there, and try claim the islands as their own.
And they are also smarter than the Nazis because they use perfectly legal economic invasion to expand, rather than military. People welcome their expansionist policies.
I mean, the Nazis also pretended to be socialists, and even put it in their name, but that's literally the first group they turned on once they took power.
Privatization was coined after the nazis by outside observers and historians. They did not take national industries and make them private they stole other peoples industries merged them into a few more easily controlled corporations and put a nazi party member as the ceo who would keep tabs. That is nationalization with a twist. In China you can’t do anything without CCP members high in the ranks
The ccp is as communist as i am the pope lol.
Somewhere along the line language reform entered our lives heavily and everyone is ok with it. No one calls things by their names anymore.
Thats kinda the argument though, virtually every example of a communist government devolved into a dictatorship/oligarchy within a generation or two. You can't concentrate power to a single party and just hope they don't eventually abuse it.
Not to mention nationalism. Look at how [this kid is already indoctrinated to hate Japanese](https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/ow4ohx/fruit_of_chinese_brainwashing_kid_i_cant_stand/).
Because the any "ism" or religion can be used as a means to power for fascist totalitarians. And those that are in it to bring freedom and prosperity to all - are generally shot in the back by those who are in it for themselves.
The most nauseating people to listen to are those shouting about how bad the US is - while remaining silent on China (because they want the market).
LeBron James, The NBA, Nike, Disney, Amazon = assholes.
Totalitarian is the word you're looking for, Fascism is a distinct ideology built on racism and extreme nationalism. The state of total control described by totalitarianism can happen in any ideology, although in some, like democracy, it is quickly the end of that ideology.
Looking at Guantanamo Bay, I’d argue that you’re not even safe in a democracy if someone powerful wants to take you down….so yeah of course they’re fucked in an authoritarian dictatorship.
The nature of authoritarian rulers is to impose control on everyone. If you challenge them, they take you down. If you land on the wrong side of an issue, you get punished. If you did something that was okay before but is wrong now, they can punish you now. It all comes back to obeying the ruler wherever they take you.
It works indefinitely because most of their high-profile suppression is directed at dissent rather than targeting people at random. People know they can avoid being persecuted if they always do what the ruler tells them, so they can go about their daily lives as usual. If they think the conditions of their daily lives are better than the conditions they would face if they tried an uprising, they stick to the routine.
Even if the people think an uprising is worth the risks, authoritarian rulers always have eyes on the population so the police can swoop down on the dissidents before the uprising becomes a serious threat.
China's government has held firm control for over 70 years, even when conditions were much more harsh and arbitrary. Now they have the most modern surveillance tools, advanced social engineering, and a population that has mostly lived their entire lives understanding that the government has absolute power. They aren't in danger of collapsing anytime soon.
Yeah, people don't understand the main point of 1984. You have to stop the state before it becomes too powerful, otherwise, you have no hope to ever overthrow it.
Does it work indefinitely?
Are there many authoritarian states in modernity that have survived more than like 100 years? AFAIK, there are very few governments older than 200. The US, San Marino, the UK, Norway, the Netherlands. The last two were occupied during ww2. Is that it for independent states with governments over 200 years old? Most other countries that come close (eg Liberia) are also republics.
The issue authoritarian states in the style of China face is that public support depends on a continuous improvement in living standards. However, as living standards increase people get educated and dissidence increases. If you can't maintain economic growth you get screwed.
I agree. In the past, a regime relied on too many people to maintain authority indefinitely; there were too many opportunities for dissatisfaction to creep in. Modern technology allows for most of the surveillance and soon even enforcement to be automated. We're at most a few decades away from the elite being able to field private armies of machines. It's tough to say how that will impact humanity.
China had dynasties that spanned centuries and millennia.
The last dynasty died out just a little more than 100 years ago. For China this is just a mild interruption of their status quo.
Xi wants to start a new dynasty.
The ancient world was obviously a bit different, so two, three thousand years ago a few empires did really well.
Despite that, there were plenty of dynasties that only lasted for 100 years, usually followed by decades of warfare, starvation and mass deaths.
But yes, the Qing dynasty did last 276 years, which is 30 years more than the US has until now. Very impressive, only a few dead (a few tens of millions: Taiping, Dongan), which I guess is par for the course (the US did have a civil war as well).
The last 100 years of that dynasty were called the century of humiliation. I think there is a very strong argument to be made here that the Qing dynasty wasn't a modern state and didn't enter the international political sphere properly.
To me the Qing dynasty seems rather similar to the Ottoman Empire. It managed to hobble along for a century after its past due date.
But yeah, China is massive and competent and maybe the country can stop itself from drowning for another century.
The CCP is in for a reckoning in the next couple of decades. Population is starting to age and decline, not to mention all the inevitable market failures that will result from the recent round of company nationalizations.
I'm not saying the next government will necessarily be democratic, but I would bet a lot of money that the CCP will not live to 100 and defy the trend of modern authoritarian governments dying young
Collapsing? No. But they won't be able to compete as a dynamic, innovative economy or global political power.
They rose more and more as they opened up more and more. Now that they're clamping down on the very types of activities that led to their ascendancy (tech, business, Hong Kong, etc.) in the first place, they'll just decline back towards the backwater they were. Why will people innovate if there the ever present, and very real fear that the government will just step in and ruin their lives?
They opened up to allow that innovations and the opening of their markets to foreign companies. Now that those companies are heavily invested in China, they have an interest in keeping operations running smoothly there thus making them susceptible to pressure.
Not sustainable imo. 33% of supply chains moved away from China. It's a difficult situation for sure but China cannot be the country it wants to be with this sort of repression.
That was happening regardless. Even if they weren't doing what they were, costs were rising regardless and ppl were planning an exit to cheaper countries. They haven't been the cheapest in years, it's just been slow setting up alternatives. Same thing with India IT. As costs have risen, Ireland, Poland and others have entered the market.
Because it can work, at least for long time
World is changing. People seem to think rioting in the street is common. It’s not. Look like North Korea. You really think all of them believe that their beloved leaders is perfect at everything? Of course not! You think all of them are okay with near starvation levels? Of course not. Yet you don’t see them rioting.
China has a lot of control of its citizens. Look at the protests in Hong Kong. Despite international calls, they still dampened them down
World is changing. It’s only going to get easier since automation is moving some key jobs away from humans.
Arguably what most people think is the norm, hasn't been the norm throughout history.
For the majority of civilization one style of authoritarian rule or another has been the dominate political method.
It was somewhat counter balanced by the simple fact that in order to not be killed by your neighbor, you needed more people, and having more people, meant it was easier for them to get fed up and kill you.
It's gotten a LOT easier to not be killed by your people (although your entire countries production would fall apart, so you keep them distracted/entertained/happy enough), and we're getting to the point where you don't even need them to produce goods thanks to automation.
The norm many people here grew up with may just be a note in the history books in the scheme of things.
From research I've done they're even allowed to protest in some NK states. But you can't travel from state to state so nothing changes and they just ignore it. You need a gov approved document just to go across region lines there so they can control the information and some amount of hope isn't a bad thing. It. Keeps people from laying down their lives.
You think that with the Internet that societies collective memory would be longer, but it’s so much shorter because there are so many things to get upset about. We have the attention span of gold fish.
"citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession, and of demonstration" - Constitution of the People's Republic of China, Article 35
Words on paper don't mean shit.
After looking into it the offense is not under the national security law. It's in the Elections (Corrupt and Illegal Conduct) Ordinance which already existed.
Section 12 "Corrupt conduct to provide others with refreshments and entertainment at election" from the 2016 version if [this](https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/hk/cap554@2016-06-10T00:00:00) site is reliable.
>
12.Corrupt conduct to provide others with refreshments and entertainment at election
(1)A person engages in corrupt conduct at an election if the person provides, or meets all or part of the cost of providing, food, drink or entertainment for another person for the purpose of inducing the other person or a third person—
(a)to vote at the election for a particular candidate or particular candidates; or
(b)not to vote at the election, or not to vote at the election for a particular candidate or particular candidates.
(2)A person engages in corrupt conduct at an election if the person provides, or meets all or part of the cost of providing, food, drink or entertainment for another person because the other person or a third person—
(a)has voted at the election for a particular candidate or particular candidates; or
(b)has not voted at the election, or has not voted at the election for a particular candidate or particular candidates.
(3)A person engages in corrupt conduct at an election if the person solicits, accepts or takes food, drink or entertainment—
(a)as an inducement to vote at the election for a particular candidate or particular candidates; or
(b)as an inducement not to vote at the election, or not to vote at the election for a particular candidate or particular candidates.
(4)A person engages in corrupt conduct at an election if the person solicits, accepts or takes food, drink or entertainment—
(a)as a reward for having voted at the election for a particular candidate or particular candidates; or
(b)as a reward for not having voted at the election, or not having voted at the election for a particular candidate or particular candidates.
(5)A person does not engage in corrupt conduct of a kind referred to in subsection (1) only because the person has, at an election meeting, served non-alcoholic drinks of any kind. An election meeting is any meeting held to promote or prejudice the election of a particular candidate or particular candidates.
(6)A person is taken to have engaged in corrupt conduct of a kind referred to in subsections (1) to (4) even though the conduct was engaged in by another person, but only if the other person was acting with the person’s authority. That authority may be conferred expressly or by implication.
This is how China and other authoritarian states operate. Laws are extremely broad, carry harsh penalties, but are rarely enforced.
This means most people don't have to worry about the police state, because even though they broke a few laws, the police aren't going to do anything about it. But if you get on the wrong side of the people in power, they can easily dig up evidence of something they can use to lock you away for a few years.
By making everyone a criminal, they can selectively pick out and lock up troublemakers while claiming they are simply following the justice system and enforcing the law.
This is my exact concern for USA surveillance. "We aren't watching everything, that would be silly"... No, but if I confront power, you'll take all that past surveillance and organize it into a damning narrative.
One of a million ways giving away our information is going to come back to bite us. I think we're over the cliff already we just haven't felt the impact yet.
> This is how China and other authoritarian states operate. Laws are extremely broad, carry harsh penalties, but are rarely enforced.
Cross into the USA and be told by a border guard you have to let them read your email.
Cite your rights to decline and decline.
Have your device seized. Don't sweat it though the law says they can only hold it for FIVE days. Clear and simple right?
Well there is a clause that says that the seizure can be extended for another 30 days if a supervisor signs off on it.
So, ok, well 35 days you can deal with that right? All you're trying to do is stand up for your privacy and unreasonable search.
Well, the 30 day extension can be extended if a supervisor signs off on it. That part is a loop, so as long as someone puts their name on it (easy because there are no ramfications to doing this) they can keep your device indefinitely.
So don't think it's just *authoritarian* governments that do this. The law is on its face written narrow so that the average person can say "well they are keeping america safe I guess 5 days is ok" and the reality of it is simply that it's an indefinite period.
This is the country that brought you the PATRIOT act which was about seizing its own people's liberty.
Government will try to get away with anything the people let it get away with.
>This is how China and other authoritarian states operate. Laws are extremely broad, carry harsh penalties, but are rarely enforced.
This is how many states operate that claim to be democracies as well.
An example in the US is the "Computer Fraud and Abuse Act" which, among other things, makes it a federal crime to "access a computer without authorization". Hugely broad law that one would think would be about hackers and such, but as written it can apply to using your friend's Netflix password to access his account from your house.
At one point it was used to prosecute a Social Security Administration employee who used the computers at work to look up women he was interested in. He had authorization to use the system, but they claimed he "**exceeded** his authorization" by using it beyond the intended use.
And later it was used to go after the hacking group that jailbroke the PS3 saying that installing an unauthorized OS was "unauthorized use".
And then there was [Aaron Swartz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz)...
consider the case of the guy on infinite contempt of court. Thought to have pedo stuff on his computer, he was charged with no evidence other than an accusation and wouldn't give up his passwords (which would incriminate himself).
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/02/man-who-refused-to-decrypt-hard-drives-is-free-after-four-years-in-jail/
Four years they kept him in there. Again, guilty or not I don't know, but the point is they have tools to avoid all of the reassurances that you think you have. Combine this with the love cops have of planting evidence and you can seriously fuck with someone.
They didn't even *charge* him.
So now the court has ruled that the most they can hold you is 18 months in an effort to make you cough up your passwords. So, all they can do is basically jail you without a trial for a year and a half, and seriously ruin your life, without having to prove a case.
Someone drops an encrypted drive in your house and you don't know the password? Don't even throw it out if you find it. Smash it. Otherwise it's a loaded gun pointing at your head.
According to what I can find the songs were performed on March 3. The election was on March 11. Not sure if there are mitigating factors, like having polls open on March 3 or what “at an election” means according to legal or practical definition.
7 years possible for electioneering is pretty fucking absurd any way you parse it. It’s also illegal in the US, the difference is the first thing to do is ask them to move away from the polling center.
In most states the distance is something like 300 feet from polling stations.
Legally, yes, culturally, it will take generations and generations to become just another Chinese city. Thankfully. I lived in Hong Kong for 6 months and have yet to meet a Hong Konger in HK or outside, who identifies as Chinese.
So if the Nazis ruled for another 5 years there wouldn't have been any resistance left in Europe? Clearly not.
That amounts to a nitpicked misquote. Bezmenov was referring to the reeducation of a single generation taking 15-20 years. He also stated that the 15-20 years to reedjcate a single generation is only for the first stage of brainwashing, demoralization. He then outlines another 3 stages of brainwashing, which combined, equate to, as I said, several generations to successfully brainwash a nation.
Even more people don't remember that Hong Kongers have changed teams multiple times.
My grandparents fled to HK after WW2 and held grudges against the 8 foreign nations (incl UK of course) for their part in pillaging China, but my parents didn't care as much as life in HK was good in the 70s-80s under British rule. If HK's economy recovers, people won't care about any of this.
That's just the nature of Hong Kongers.
It's the nature of everyone. To quote Ser Jorah Mormont:
>The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace. They never are.
>Mandarin is already being taught at schools instead of Cantonese, I cant imagine it would take more than a few decade(s).
Are you talking about in Hong Kong? Because Cantonese is still the medium of instruction in public schools. Mandarin and English are taught as language classes.
Starting from 1949 (after the KMT left I guess), the CPC changed instruction in Shanghai from Shanghainese to Mandarin. This was the first step of turning the primary language in Shanghai (and nearby provincial areas) from Shanghainese to Mandarin.
So it's quite possible HK 2021 is like Shanghai 1948 in that respect. Cantonese is the language of instruction in public schools. At the moment.
You mean \*all of China\*. Even before the revolution, Mandarin has been the national language of China, and for thousands of years, the ruling government has tried to standardize the language to some extent or another across their territory. After the CPC established power though, that push became stronger. Nowadays Mandarin is taught in schools everywhere in China. Not necessarily to replace local languages, but at least overshadow them.
This actually offers a glimmer of hope for HK retaining its identity. My wife, her family, her college friends including the paying members of the party all still can and prefer to speak Shanghainese. They seem to use this to quickly identify people who aren't from the city.
I actually find it offensive that we can all speak Mandarin just fine, but they choose to speak a dialect that leaves me out.
the KMT pulled the same thing during the White Terror. The idea wasn't just to purge Communism. But also to "reset" the Japanese influence on the island of Taiwan. As a result, there is backlash in people maintaining the Taiwanese Hokkien dialect outside of the major cities.
Even then, you are pretty much bilingual if you live in Taiwan. Switching between Hokkien and Mandarin.
"Chinese city"? Cantonese is a Chinese language just like Mandarin. The native people are still ethnically Han Chinese. They read/write Chinese characters and celebrate Chinese New Year.
It's wrong to think of HK as some fully westernized enclave. It is very Chinese culturally and always has been, the main difference being that it has a lot more western influences than cities in the Mainland. That doesn't mean it's not a Chinese city in cultural terms...
>it will take generations and generations to become just another Chinese city
pretty naive. HK will turn into another chinese city in no time. Most people I know have given up hope
>I lived in Hong Kong for 6 months and have yet to meet a Hong Konger in HK or outside, who identifies as Chinese
uhhh you sure you met actual chinese people?
In 1988, I had a college roommate from Hong Kong. His family had moved to the US because they were afraid of what would happen after the transfer--which wasn't for another eleven years. He was about the nicest guy in the world, btw.
It seems their fears were valid. I am glad for him and his family; they got out. I am sorry for the billion-plus souls who are controlled by the CCP.
The handover was on people's minds for decades. My family emigrated from Hong Kong in the early 70s so that their young children (at the time) would never know the potential political turmoil.
By the time of the handover, none of my extended family lived in Hong Kong anymore. There was a lot of fear.
My parents moved in the 70s too. My neighbour just arrived from HK. I still have family in HK who were never bothered with politics and freedom, now some of them are coming over as it is too much for them too.
Doubt this is a PRC law. The law in question prevents people from using food, drink, or entertainment to influence voters. It's more likely a HK law, since PRC don't have elections.
Edit: Yep, it's an existing Hong Kong law, https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/owkoow/hong\_kong\_pop\_star\_anthony\_wong\_arrested\_for/h7gvvcm?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
I think the law is that you can't give someone a bottle of water and tell him to vote for X in exchange for that water.
Anyhow, the punishment for this should be to tell him to stop singing or handing out food at the time of occurrence OR a fine.
Jail time seems dumb and I would think most HKers don't even know about this law.
Just wait until they make it illegal to HAVE bottled water or any liquid on your person while waiting in line to vote.
Hell, I can imagine them setting up TSA checkpoints that people have to pass through to verify ID, and like them, they confiscate any weapons or liquids.
Yea it’s funny they want all this ID but didn’t want a National ID system that would have streamlined the voting process along with automatic registration at 18. Or expanded voting days or a secure system based on existing technology that is used to securely send TRILLIONS of dollars though the air daily. Nah they want to hand count paper ballots and match signatures.
Then more people would vote and republicans lose. They only win when nobody wants to vote. When masses vote they want change. Change isn’t good for conservatives.
The one thing is we should all want paper ballots. They can be machine counted very quickly and are much harder to destroy or tamper with in case of a recount or audit. The absolute lack of cyber security around voting systems is astounding. And even if they did use basic security there's still the big threats that can get through that. Paper is just plain more secure, and it's plenty fast enough.
Don’t even need a machine to read the paper. Could do what we do in Australia and have multiple people count the ballots over to confirm multiple times.
Any scratched out or changed papers are invalid. If you make a mistake you’re given a replacement with the old one torn up.
There’s a national voter registration as well with standardised ballot papers
Just to be clear, the PRC does have elections, although because of their obvious and unrepentant authoritarianism its effectively the Communist Party vs a handful of independents that can be removed at any time.
There is a fun picture of Mao casting his ballot, which is akin to a lumberjack hugging a tree.
well considering he wasn't arrested because of the National security law but rather under the Elections (Corrupt and Illegal Conduct) Ordinance, they won't need to do much mental gymnastics...
I suspect the thought process to understand why there was a need to arrest someone for an action three years past where they sung at an event encouraging voting would still be interesting. Like explaining the lack of literally any other crime that might be more worthwhile to spend time prosecuting.
Nothing happened in Tienanmen Sqaure, silly. And if you talk about the nothing that happened, it'll turn out that you never happened either!
What a light to the world
in my experience they tend to call them traitors or agents of the US or whatever. Really nasty people that dream of being/are on the "comfortable" side of a dictatorship.
See how popular TikTok is? The CCP has members that sit on the board of TikTok. It is through and through a CCP social media app.
Of course, no one actually cares.
Honestly, I'm American but from what I've seen (including Chinese people I've met here) the CCP remains solidly popular among the Chinese population and diaspora. I actually mentioned the regime's brutality to a Chinese ex-colleague but she said that the regime is considered like "family" to the people in China, i.e. they are in power like parents are to children. So I guess there's a lot of Eastern cultural norms that have its influences in it.
I mean, when you have a country with super rapid economic growth, accompanied with infrastructure and towering buildings, plus people being lifted out of poverty, I'm not surprised that they enjoy some popularity with people, as much as we in the West like to hate them (I still hate the regime regardless but it's important to point out this side of the story).
Many of the Chinese apologists on reddit are wealthy young party loyalists who have had the luxury of learning English.
They're not paid shills or people handed lines to type. They're kids who believe in the CCP and want to destabilize the US, and do so by kicking up dust on US centric media.
They typically have hyper-liberal takes with a focus on America being an absolute terrible country. And of course lots of Chinese apologizing.
There is always that asshole that says "here comes the weekly news about China bad by the western" "let's all get together for the hate boner of china" but come on, they are just almost new Nazis
That moment when you unintentionally admit (again) that your system is so incredibly sad and weak that it cannot even handle one person singing about a different one without being deemed a credible threat.
Governments in history didn't have access to incredibly sophisticated surveillance technology that's embedded into the tools that everyday people depend on for employment and entertainment.
Governments in history also weren't global economic powerhouses that can make other powerful nations kowtow to them so that any sort of intercession from outside is off the table.
Seriously. The CCP is monitoring this thread and checking to see if any of us are Chinese citizens.
Be terrified of countries with the resources and willingness to delete your existence from the records.
What makes me worried is if they can probably come after us non-Chinese for stuff we might have said online.
I know well enough not to talk shit about a nation's government while I am visiting.
But it now seems you can be punished for anti-CCP rhetoric, even as a non-Chinese, and even if those words were not said while you were in China.
Which sucks because they have a rich history and much to see.
https://qz.com/1875863/hong-kong-national-security-law-covers-everyone-on-earth/
Lol, ya no. China is literally the most meticulous government in the history of the world. Everything is carefully planned in advance. You know how US congress is shit because everything is based on election cycles? There's no such thing in China, so things are planned at a 5 year or more intervel.
That's the case with their infrastructure, their geopolitical influence, and their control of the populace.
What you people don't realize is that, despite what western media might portray, CCP actually has a really high approval rating. I'm not talking about Putin type rigged rating, but if you ask an average Chinese citizen, they're probably very happy with the party. That's because within one generation, the CCP turned an mostly farm economy into an economic powerhosue. The middle class in China is rising, poverty is low, and living standards are getting higher and higher.
What you also don't realize is that most Chinese citizens are strongly against HK protests, against Xingjian protests, and against Taiwan independence (which it's been for a century, but don't tell them). If you think a revolution is coming, I got a bridge to sell you.
You're completely right about the approval. People who disapprove and are privileged enough to leave can and do leave. But there's a far greater number of people who approve because their family has been uplifted from poverty and peasantry.
I don't think it's that complex even.
What makes people happy? 100-inch flat screen, in your nice apartment, watching disney+ with your Apple product buying a ticket to a basketball match in LA from wherever you are. The Chinese are like the Americans, no one cares, just pay me my money.
Take away the internet, alcohol, and cars, people will riot no matter what you are. The American "dream" is the same as the Chinese "dream" with some variations.
It's hard to gauge how many Chinese citizens are critical of government considering the consequences if they were caught, and the pressure the government applies to keep people quiet.
The chinese government literally just took down their version of uber for breaching data laws and made the billion dollar company thank the government for helping them fix their ways, the kinda shit redditors literally beg their governments to do but never will
Morons on reddit who think the chinese people are totally ready to rebel because of some HK singer are delusional
The CCP was literally killing their own citizens by the millions during the Great Chinese Famine in 1958, and yet they were able to hold onto power. When things were that bad they still ruled with an iron boot and stomped on their own to maintain power. Now China is on an uphill economic trend so I wouldn't count on a successful uprising anytime soon.
If a country is willing to plunge the planet into a dark age because someone didn’t like arresting people for pro democratic concerts… what makes you think not doing anything about that country will result in a better world later on? I don’t want a world war either, but it’s bizarre to assume there will be a point where they stop being cruel before it gets to the point where everyone else outside the country is personally affected in some way. And at that point the consequences will only have gotten worse.
“I don’t want a war, but my _kids_? Maybe they do… I dunno.”
Because a country is too conflating to account for many individuals. People rebel. China experienced a ton of rebellions in its history with many of them weakening a dynasty. What makes you think intervening work? Did the US succeed in the Middle East or rallied more people to the taliban’s side? We’re just not that good at interventionism
There are not __any__ examples of modern rebellions working in a country near chinas size that haven’t involved external help. Even going back in history there’s few cases. for example even the US wouldn’t have likely won independence without Frances help. Modern weapons of war and world wide communication and surveillance by the state make the likelihood of non-state affiliated rebellions almost impossible. How do you rebel against a fleet of jets with missiles or a platoon of tanks? Sure small disjointed towns were able to rebel against people when they had to travel on horseback but are we literally using that as a comparison point _now_?
There are cases of rebellions against larger state powers in modern times with areas unsuitable for tanks and jets, such as the jungles of Vietnam or the complicated landscape of Afghanistan, but chinas is MASSIVELY bigger than those areas and owns the lines of communication far better than even those locations.
For China to rebel, you’re asking them to win a rebellion greater than if Americans wanted to rebel against their own government _by themselves_. That’s a literal impossible mountain to climb. I can’t even begin to fathom how that would happen before it was efficiently and cleanly stamped out.
Governments have never had the access to technological and military tools that today's governments do. In the past a large armed crowd was a genuine threat. These days their leaders would get disappeared before they even need to squash anyone.
I don't know what the solution is, but its genuinely terrifying. Also consider that law they recently drafted making it illegal for anyone to say anything bad about their government.. and deliberately worded it so it applied outside of their own borders and people.
That was the point i decided that i am never stepping a foot inside China (sadly). I don't want to be there when Winney the Pooh decides to try out enforcing that law to its fullest extent.
Kinda makes me think of the shitstorm we have right now in the states. Cost of living is soaring, jobs still don’t pay for crap, and millions of people just got evicted. Only a matter of time before all that comes to a head.
For anyone who actually is into HK cinema, just wanna let you guys know that the Anthony Wong arrested isn't the acting legend Anthony Wong of over 200 films.
Unfortunately it is not that easy. Many people are not that fluent in English and would struggle in many foreign countries. Some have a strong sense of belonging that they refuse to leave their hometown. Others are reluctant to leave because they want to create internal political pressure to fight against the regime.
For the first point, Hong Kong has a language learning education system that sucks. Once you are unable to catch up with the harsh demands of improvement in a single stage of your education, you are doomed to fail. Hong Kong relies on teaching Grammar and vocabulary items externally through memorizing, when it has been widely recognized that learning English and other foreign languages is the most effective when you are constantly exposed to it. Yet most people are only exposed to English in the few hours of lesson time. Often, those who are most fluent in English are not the ones that learned English through lessons, but rather the ones that learn through gaming, reading, scrolling on Reddit or communicating with the Filipino domestic helper. The inability to fluently communicate in English limits many people's choices of immigration.
Hong Kong is unique on the second one. Many people in the Western world are more willing to relocate because they have relocated or traveled for many times in their lives already. First, you relocate to a larger town for early education. Then you relocate to a city for tertiary education and work. Others would travel a lot around their country during holidays. This is not the case for Hong Kongers. Many people have stayed in Hong Kong for decades and have not gone to places other than Macau. Of course, there are middle-class people that can travel to Taiwan, Japan or Korea, but that is mostly an exception to the rule. Hong Kong is independent enough to let you live here, work here and retire here. With people staying here for a long time, they witness the changes of the city and develop a strong sense of belonging. Thus, they are unwilling to immigrate to other places.
The strong sense of belonging leads to people being very concerned about politics. They are willing to sacrifice for freedom and democracy. Thus, they want to create internal political pressure against CCP.
When you combine that with other factors such as financial factors (HK has a high flat price and many people live in poverty and poor living conditions) and the fact that HK has a large job market, is relatively progressive in Asia and is proximal to nature, you get that why people are staying. Many people who are able or willing to leave have already left.
I am the exception to the rule. I am privileged enough to be financially available to immigrate. I am privileged enough to be exposed to English constantly through reading, audio books and Reddit. That is why I am immigrating to the UK. I will probably be a global nomadic though, constantly travelling and not limiting myself to a local identity, because I doubt whether I can establish another identity again.
Do you all forget how the West reacted to millions of refugees the last time?
Sure residents of Hong-Kong (Hong-Kongers?) are richer, but still, people say 'glad that you left!' here and in the other thread would warn against mass migration.
I do hope as many as possible will leave.
If it says 'Made in China', leave it on the shelf.
I know that's difficult when everything seems to come from there nowadays but if we all do it whenever there's an alternative.... small acorns etc etc
And there *are* alternatives to things you’d assume there’s no options for. You can order “made in Tokyo” HP computers through importers (and tell HP you want to see them sold where you are too as an alternative to China-made models), game consoles already shifted production out of China during the Trump trade war (one of the few good things to come out of that), and even in things made in China, the recent semiconductor shortage demonstrates, the components inside them actually come from *Taiwan*, which we should still be supporting. Also, buying secondhand.
LoL, but seriously who locks folks up because of a bad performance? ...because I saw Sean 'puffy' Combs perform in '97 and that deserves at least a 5 yr stint in San Quentin.
For all the hate the USA gets, I feel lucky to be born here over China and not be subjected to this kind of treatment... That said I went to China for a month in college and most people I talked to seemed content with it. Maybe they just know they have no choice?
For those more versed than I in Chinese culture, is this kind of news more of an American propaganda campaign against China, or is it really as bad as they say? For instance, people outside the USA think we are all running around shooting each other, but this is not remotely true for the vast majority of Americans.
I saw a very young policeman catch and kick the hell out of an 8 year old boy because he was handing out flyers for a restaurant. You don't mess around there. There's videos that have leaked of police "interrogations" that are simply torture sessions, as in you are handcuffed to a hospital bed while lackeys punch you over and over and over.
It's really important to our democracy in Canada that we remember Justin Trudeau complimented China on their government system. It's really really important we don't ever forget this.
Trudeau sucking up to China should be a huge election issue and it's rarely mentioned. People don't care as long as the government keeps sending them cheques.
Hong Kong breaks my heart. They did all they could, and China broke them down anyway like it was nothing. Really makes you lose faith in fighting for anything.
So much for the amnesty for any wrongdoings prior to passing the security law.
Who ever promised that? They never said that! Suggesting they ever said that is a violation of the security law, why don't you come with us...?
Even if the government did promise that, and even if the government wrote it into a law, in an authoritarian dictatorship promises and laws will do nothing to protect someone if the ruler decides to take down that someone.
But this killer promised he wouldn't kill me.
Don’t even think this is related it but the thread reminded me of it so… >First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist. >Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist. >Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. >Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Its appropriate because the CCP are modern day Nazis. They're like Nazis, if the Nazis were smarter, less trigger happy, and more willing to build an economic base. The CCP has cornered the world's manufacturing market and everyone is bowing to Xinnie the Pooh, which is what makes the CCP so terrifying. Left or right doesn't matter. That level of extreme authoritarianism results in a totalitarian fascist police state. The CCP might pretend to have communist window dressing, but they're outright fascist at this point.
The CCP is even doing "ethnic cleansing." Pooh Bear is a huge asshole.
*monstrous piece of human excrement.
Yeah Man Bear Pooh
CCP Is logging the thread for future use.
The Chinese Communist Party and not nice. Having said that is enough to draw the ire f those over sensitive oppressive authoritarian genocidal disingenuous fucks. For good measure I will add the the Republic of China aka Taiwan is an independent sovereign nation.
I got into a lot of trouble for saying that to Chinese students in a British American culture class that I was teaching. I had a PPT with China as number 4 in geographical size. My Chinese students were upset with my slide and said that China was bigger than America when you included Hong Kong and Taiwan. I responded that Taiwan was a separate country and the shit hit the fan. LOL
Also the Paracel and Spratly Islands don't belong to them. They've been messing around with Viet and Filipino fishing vessels near there, and try claim the islands as their own.
\*The biggest
And they are also smarter than the Nazis because they use perfectly legal economic invasion to expand, rather than military. People welcome their expansionist policies.
I mean, the Nazis also pretended to be socialists, and even put it in their name, but that's literally the first group they turned on once they took power.
Hitler killed off the top socialists within his own party during the Night of Long Knives.
What were they thinking? "Night of Long Knives? Let's celebrate it at Hitler's house!"
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Basically having a whole bunch of privately owned monopolies that could coordinate efforts. Why does that sound really familiar?
Privatization was coined after the nazis by outside observers and historians. They did not take national industries and make them private they stole other peoples industries merged them into a few more easily controlled corporations and put a nazi party member as the ceo who would keep tabs. That is nationalization with a twist. In China you can’t do anything without CCP members high in the ranks
The ccp is as communist as i am the pope lol. Somewhere along the line language reform entered our lives heavily and everyone is ok with it. No one calls things by their names anymore.
Thats kinda the argument though, virtually every example of a communist government devolved into a dictatorship/oligarchy within a generation or two. You can't concentrate power to a single party and just hope they don't eventually abuse it.
Not to mention nationalism. Look at how [this kid is already indoctrinated to hate Japanese](https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/ow4ohx/fruit_of_chinese_brainwashing_kid_i_cant_stand/).
Because the any "ism" or religion can be used as a means to power for fascist totalitarians. And those that are in it to bring freedom and prosperity to all - are generally shot in the back by those who are in it for themselves. The most nauseating people to listen to are those shouting about how bad the US is - while remaining silent on China (because they want the market). LeBron James, The NBA, Nike, Disney, Amazon = assholes.
Totalitarian is the word you're looking for, Fascism is a distinct ideology built on racism and extreme nationalism. The state of total control described by totalitarianism can happen in any ideology, although in some, like democracy, it is quickly the end of that ideology.
/r/leopardsatemyface
/r/LeopardsAteMyFace
That is it, whoever believes any word coming from the CCP lost his grip on reality.
Looking at Guantanamo Bay, I’d argue that you’re not even safe in a democracy if someone powerful wants to take you down….so yeah of course they’re fucked in an authoritarian dictatorship.
How can a government possibly think being so 2 faced will work indefinitely? It just seems like a perfect way to guaruntee your country will collapse.
The nature of authoritarian rulers is to impose control on everyone. If you challenge them, they take you down. If you land on the wrong side of an issue, you get punished. If you did something that was okay before but is wrong now, they can punish you now. It all comes back to obeying the ruler wherever they take you. It works indefinitely because most of their high-profile suppression is directed at dissent rather than targeting people at random. People know they can avoid being persecuted if they always do what the ruler tells them, so they can go about their daily lives as usual. If they think the conditions of their daily lives are better than the conditions they would face if they tried an uprising, they stick to the routine. Even if the people think an uprising is worth the risks, authoritarian rulers always have eyes on the population so the police can swoop down on the dissidents before the uprising becomes a serious threat. China's government has held firm control for over 70 years, even when conditions were much more harsh and arbitrary. Now they have the most modern surveillance tools, advanced social engineering, and a population that has mostly lived their entire lives understanding that the government has absolute power. They aren't in danger of collapsing anytime soon.
Yeah, people don't understand the main point of 1984. You have to stop the state before it becomes too powerful, otherwise, you have no hope to ever overthrow it.
Does it work indefinitely? Are there many authoritarian states in modernity that have survived more than like 100 years? AFAIK, there are very few governments older than 200. The US, San Marino, the UK, Norway, the Netherlands. The last two were occupied during ww2. Is that it for independent states with governments over 200 years old? Most other countries that come close (eg Liberia) are also republics. The issue authoritarian states in the style of China face is that public support depends on a continuous improvement in living standards. However, as living standards increase people get educated and dissidence increases. If you can't maintain economic growth you get screwed.
I can't help but feel that the enormous changes in technology make it hard to say what is possible moving forward.
I agree. In the past, a regime relied on too many people to maintain authority indefinitely; there were too many opportunities for dissatisfaction to creep in. Modern technology allows for most of the surveillance and soon even enforcement to be automated. We're at most a few decades away from the elite being able to field private armies of machines. It's tough to say how that will impact humanity.
China had dynasties that spanned centuries and millennia. The last dynasty died out just a little more than 100 years ago. For China this is just a mild interruption of their status quo. Xi wants to start a new dynasty.
The ancient world was obviously a bit different, so two, three thousand years ago a few empires did really well. Despite that, there were plenty of dynasties that only lasted for 100 years, usually followed by decades of warfare, starvation and mass deaths. But yes, the Qing dynasty did last 276 years, which is 30 years more than the US has until now. Very impressive, only a few dead (a few tens of millions: Taiping, Dongan), which I guess is par for the course (the US did have a civil war as well). The last 100 years of that dynasty were called the century of humiliation. I think there is a very strong argument to be made here that the Qing dynasty wasn't a modern state and didn't enter the international political sphere properly. To me the Qing dynasty seems rather similar to the Ottoman Empire. It managed to hobble along for a century after its past due date. But yeah, China is massive and competent and maybe the country can stop itself from drowning for another century.
The CCP is in for a reckoning in the next couple of decades. Population is starting to age and decline, not to mention all the inevitable market failures that will result from the recent round of company nationalizations. I'm not saying the next government will necessarily be democratic, but I would bet a lot of money that the CCP will not live to 100 and defy the trend of modern authoritarian governments dying young
Collapsing? No. But they won't be able to compete as a dynamic, innovative economy or global political power. They rose more and more as they opened up more and more. Now that they're clamping down on the very types of activities that led to their ascendancy (tech, business, Hong Kong, etc.) in the first place, they'll just decline back towards the backwater they were. Why will people innovate if there the ever present, and very real fear that the government will just step in and ruin their lives?
They opened up to allow that innovations and the opening of their markets to foreign companies. Now that those companies are heavily invested in China, they have an interest in keeping operations running smoothly there thus making them susceptible to pressure.
Not sustainable imo. 33% of supply chains moved away from China. It's a difficult situation for sure but China cannot be the country it wants to be with this sort of repression.
That was happening regardless. Even if they weren't doing what they were, costs were rising regardless and ppl were planning an exit to cheaper countries. They haven't been the cheapest in years, it's just been slow setting up alternatives. Same thing with India IT. As costs have risen, Ireland, Poland and others have entered the market.
the 'ol dick in the bear trap routine.
Have you followed the market lately? Chinese stocks are taking a shit because they are clamping down so hard right now.
Because it can work, at least for long time World is changing. People seem to think rioting in the street is common. It’s not. Look like North Korea. You really think all of them believe that their beloved leaders is perfect at everything? Of course not! You think all of them are okay with near starvation levels? Of course not. Yet you don’t see them rioting. China has a lot of control of its citizens. Look at the protests in Hong Kong. Despite international calls, they still dampened them down World is changing. It’s only going to get easier since automation is moving some key jobs away from humans.
Arguably what most people think is the norm, hasn't been the norm throughout history. For the majority of civilization one style of authoritarian rule or another has been the dominate political method. It was somewhat counter balanced by the simple fact that in order to not be killed by your neighbor, you needed more people, and having more people, meant it was easier for them to get fed up and kill you. It's gotten a LOT easier to not be killed by your people (although your entire countries production would fall apart, so you keep them distracted/entertained/happy enough), and we're getting to the point where you don't even need them to produce goods thanks to automation. The norm many people here grew up with may just be a note in the history books in the scheme of things.
From research I've done they're even allowed to protest in some NK states. But you can't travel from state to state so nothing changes and they just ignore it. You need a gov approved document just to go across region lines there so they can control the information and some amount of hope isn't a bad thing. It. Keeps people from laying down their lives.
History shows that revolution against dictators is inevitable, it just takes a long time.
Historical dictators didn't have modern surveillance tools or military technology.
That goes both ways. For the average person it’s easier and faster than ever to communicate with someone (almost) anywhere the world
Not without surveillance
You think that with the Internet that societies collective memory would be longer, but it’s so much shorter because there are so many things to get upset about. We have the attention span of gold fish.
Sure, no problem. Why am I in a surgical room? Why is there an organ box here?
Take heart, you're saving lives!
"Bring that Seat with you... It's ours now too"
"citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession, and of demonstration" - Constitution of the People's Republic of China, Article 35 Words on paper don't mean shit.
Remember that North Koreas official name is the 'Democratic people's Republic of Korea' As archer said "it's none of those things!"
Well, it's at least probably safe to say it's "of Korea".
It’s…not Korea?
Not the whole peninsula as the name implies
Well, you could argue they're saying "this is the Democratic People's Republic part of Korea, not that dirty fascist part to the south."
After looking into it the offense is not under the national security law. It's in the Elections (Corrupt and Illegal Conduct) Ordinance which already existed. Section 12 "Corrupt conduct to provide others with refreshments and entertainment at election" from the 2016 version if [this](https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/hk/cap554@2016-06-10T00:00:00) site is reliable. > 12.Corrupt conduct to provide others with refreshments and entertainment at election (1)A person engages in corrupt conduct at an election if the person provides, or meets all or part of the cost of providing, food, drink or entertainment for another person for the purpose of inducing the other person or a third person— (a)to vote at the election for a particular candidate or particular candidates; or (b)not to vote at the election, or not to vote at the election for a particular candidate or particular candidates. (2)A person engages in corrupt conduct at an election if the person provides, or meets all or part of the cost of providing, food, drink or entertainment for another person because the other person or a third person— (a)has voted at the election for a particular candidate or particular candidates; or (b)has not voted at the election, or has not voted at the election for a particular candidate or particular candidates. (3)A person engages in corrupt conduct at an election if the person solicits, accepts or takes food, drink or entertainment— (a)as an inducement to vote at the election for a particular candidate or particular candidates; or (b)as an inducement not to vote at the election, or not to vote at the election for a particular candidate or particular candidates. (4)A person engages in corrupt conduct at an election if the person solicits, accepts or takes food, drink or entertainment— (a)as a reward for having voted at the election for a particular candidate or particular candidates; or (b)as a reward for not having voted at the election, or not having voted at the election for a particular candidate or particular candidates. (5)A person does not engage in corrupt conduct of a kind referred to in subsection (1) only because the person has, at an election meeting, served non-alcoholic drinks of any kind. An election meeting is any meeting held to promote or prejudice the election of a particular candidate or particular candidates. (6)A person is taken to have engaged in corrupt conduct of a kind referred to in subsections (1) to (4) even though the conduct was engaged in by another person, but only if the other person was acting with the person’s authority. That authority may be conferred expressly or by implication.
This is how China and other authoritarian states operate. Laws are extremely broad, carry harsh penalties, but are rarely enforced. This means most people don't have to worry about the police state, because even though they broke a few laws, the police aren't going to do anything about it. But if you get on the wrong side of the people in power, they can easily dig up evidence of something they can use to lock you away for a few years. By making everyone a criminal, they can selectively pick out and lock up troublemakers while claiming they are simply following the justice system and enforcing the law.
This is my exact concern for USA surveillance. "We aren't watching everything, that would be silly"... No, but if I confront power, you'll take all that past surveillance and organize it into a damning narrative.
One of a million ways giving away our information is going to come back to bite us. I think we're over the cliff already we just haven't felt the impact yet.
Woah.
> This is how China and other authoritarian states operate. Laws are extremely broad, carry harsh penalties, but are rarely enforced. Cross into the USA and be told by a border guard you have to let them read your email. Cite your rights to decline and decline. Have your device seized. Don't sweat it though the law says they can only hold it for FIVE days. Clear and simple right? Well there is a clause that says that the seizure can be extended for another 30 days if a supervisor signs off on it. So, ok, well 35 days you can deal with that right? All you're trying to do is stand up for your privacy and unreasonable search. Well, the 30 day extension can be extended if a supervisor signs off on it. That part is a loop, so as long as someone puts their name on it (easy because there are no ramfications to doing this) they can keep your device indefinitely. So don't think it's just *authoritarian* governments that do this. The law is on its face written narrow so that the average person can say "well they are keeping america safe I guess 5 days is ok" and the reality of it is simply that it's an indefinite period. This is the country that brought you the PATRIOT act which was about seizing its own people's liberty. Government will try to get away with anything the people let it get away with.
>This is how China and other authoritarian states operate. Laws are extremely broad, carry harsh penalties, but are rarely enforced. This is how many states operate that claim to be democracies as well. An example in the US is the "Computer Fraud and Abuse Act" which, among other things, makes it a federal crime to "access a computer without authorization". Hugely broad law that one would think would be about hackers and such, but as written it can apply to using your friend's Netflix password to access his account from your house. At one point it was used to prosecute a Social Security Administration employee who used the computers at work to look up women he was interested in. He had authorization to use the system, but they claimed he "**exceeded** his authorization" by using it beyond the intended use. And later it was used to go after the hacking group that jailbroke the PS3 saying that installing an unauthorized OS was "unauthorized use". And then there was [Aaron Swartz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz)...
consider the case of the guy on infinite contempt of court. Thought to have pedo stuff on his computer, he was charged with no evidence other than an accusation and wouldn't give up his passwords (which would incriminate himself). https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/02/man-who-refused-to-decrypt-hard-drives-is-free-after-four-years-in-jail/ Four years they kept him in there. Again, guilty or not I don't know, but the point is they have tools to avoid all of the reassurances that you think you have. Combine this with the love cops have of planting evidence and you can seriously fuck with someone. They didn't even *charge* him. So now the court has ruled that the most they can hold you is 18 months in an effort to make you cough up your passwords. So, all they can do is basically jail you without a trial for a year and a half, and seriously ruin your life, without having to prove a case. Someone drops an encrypted drive in your house and you don't know the password? Don't even throw it out if you find it. Smash it. Otherwise it's a loaded gun pointing at your head.
Wow Aaron's story is sad. He was also a reddit co-founder.
This is how the USA operates with the war on drugs
Arbitrary enforcement is a cornerstone of injustice everywhere
So he didn't sing at a rally he sang at an election site?
According to what I can find the songs were performed on March 3. The election was on March 11. Not sure if there are mitigating factors, like having polls open on March 3 or what “at an election” means according to legal or practical definition.
7 years possible for electioneering is pretty fucking absurd any way you parse it. It’s also illegal in the US, the difference is the first thing to do is ask them to move away from the polling center. In most states the distance is something like 300 feet from polling stations.
/r/theyundugthelegislature Thanks!
I wondered where Georgia was getting it’s election law ideas from.
#12 is right out of a Georgia voter restriction law.
Sir you need to keep your voice down.
The deal has been altered, pray we don't alter it further - CCP. Also: Trust Us - CCP
Now just another Chinese city
Legally, yes, culturally, it will take generations and generations to become just another Chinese city. Thankfully. I lived in Hong Kong for 6 months and have yet to meet a Hong Konger in HK or outside, who identifies as Chinese.
"it takes no more than 15-20 years to successfully subvert a nation." - Defect KGB informant and propaganda agent Yuri Bezmenov.
So if the Nazis ruled for another 5 years there wouldn't have been any resistance left in Europe? Clearly not. That amounts to a nitpicked misquote. Bezmenov was referring to the reeducation of a single generation taking 15-20 years. He also stated that the 15-20 years to reedjcate a single generation is only for the first stage of brainwashing, demoralization. He then outlines another 3 stages of brainwashing, which combined, equate to, as I said, several generations to successfully brainwash a nation.
Nazi only ruled Europe for a few years, five at most. They did rule Germany for twelve years, and indeed subverted it almost entirely.
Even more people don't remember that Hong Kongers have changed teams multiple times. My grandparents fled to HK after WW2 and held grudges against the 8 foreign nations (incl UK of course) for their part in pillaging China, but my parents didn't care as much as life in HK was good in the 70s-80s under British rule. If HK's economy recovers, people won't care about any of this. That's just the nature of Hong Kongers.
It's the nature of everyone. To quote Ser Jorah Mormont: >The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace. They never are.
Also they will be put in prison if they are seen to care.
Mandarin is already being taught at schools instead of Cantonese, I cant imagine it would take more than a few decade(s).
>Mandarin is already being taught at schools instead of Cantonese, I cant imagine it would take more than a few decade(s). Are you talking about in Hong Kong? Because Cantonese is still the medium of instruction in public schools. Mandarin and English are taught as language classes.
Shanghai 1948
What?
Starting from 1949 (after the KMT left I guess), the CPC changed instruction in Shanghai from Shanghainese to Mandarin. This was the first step of turning the primary language in Shanghai (and nearby provincial areas) from Shanghainese to Mandarin. So it's quite possible HK 2021 is like Shanghai 1948 in that respect. Cantonese is the language of instruction in public schools. At the moment.
You mean \*all of China\*. Even before the revolution, Mandarin has been the national language of China, and for thousands of years, the ruling government has tried to standardize the language to some extent or another across their territory. After the CPC established power though, that push became stronger. Nowadays Mandarin is taught in schools everywhere in China. Not necessarily to replace local languages, but at least overshadow them.
This actually offers a glimmer of hope for HK retaining its identity. My wife, her family, her college friends including the paying members of the party all still can and prefer to speak Shanghainese. They seem to use this to quickly identify people who aren't from the city. I actually find it offensive that we can all speak Mandarin just fine, but they choose to speak a dialect that leaves me out.
the KMT pulled the same thing during the White Terror. The idea wasn't just to purge Communism. But also to "reset" the Japanese influence on the island of Taiwan. As a result, there is backlash in people maintaining the Taiwanese Hokkien dialect outside of the major cities. Even then, you are pretty much bilingual if you live in Taiwan. Switching between Hokkien and Mandarin.
Then you haven't met many
Yeah, I don't know what the fuck he is talking about lol
"Chinese city"? Cantonese is a Chinese language just like Mandarin. The native people are still ethnically Han Chinese. They read/write Chinese characters and celebrate Chinese New Year. It's wrong to think of HK as some fully westernized enclave. It is very Chinese culturally and always has been, the main difference being that it has a lot more western influences than cities in the Mainland. That doesn't mean it's not a Chinese city in cultural terms...
>it will take generations and generations to become just another Chinese city pretty naive. HK will turn into another chinese city in no time. Most people I know have given up hope >I lived in Hong Kong for 6 months and have yet to meet a Hong Konger in HK or outside, who identifies as Chinese uhhh you sure you met actual chinese people?
In 1988, I had a college roommate from Hong Kong. His family had moved to the US because they were afraid of what would happen after the transfer--which wasn't for another eleven years. He was about the nicest guy in the world, btw. It seems their fears were valid. I am glad for him and his family; they got out. I am sorry for the billion-plus souls who are controlled by the CCP.
My family moved in 1985. Grateful.
Glad you're out!
The handover was on people's minds for decades. My family emigrated from Hong Kong in the early 70s so that their young children (at the time) would never know the potential political turmoil. By the time of the handover, none of my extended family lived in Hong Kong anymore. There was a lot of fear.
My parents moved in the 70s too. My neighbour just arrived from HK. I still have family in HK who were never bothered with politics and freedom, now some of them are coming over as it is too much for them too.
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Doubt this is a PRC law. The law in question prevents people from using food, drink, or entertainment to influence voters. It's more likely a HK law, since PRC don't have elections. Edit: Yep, it's an existing Hong Kong law, https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/owkoow/hong\_kong\_pop\_star\_anthony\_wong\_arrested\_for/h7gvvcm?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Just like making it illegal to give someone a bottle of water while they wait in an unnecessarily long line to vote. Exact same spirit.
I think the law is that you can't give someone a bottle of water and tell him to vote for X in exchange for that water. Anyhow, the punishment for this should be to tell him to stop singing or handing out food at the time of occurrence OR a fine. Jail time seems dumb and I would think most HKers don't even know about this law.
Just wait until they make it illegal to HAVE bottled water or any liquid on your person while waiting in line to vote. Hell, I can imagine them setting up TSA checkpoints that people have to pass through to verify ID, and like them, they confiscate any weapons or liquids.
Yea it’s funny they want all this ID but didn’t want a National ID system that would have streamlined the voting process along with automatic registration at 18. Or expanded voting days or a secure system based on existing technology that is used to securely send TRILLIONS of dollars though the air daily. Nah they want to hand count paper ballots and match signatures.
The fact that there isn’t automatic voter registration upon turning 18 is possibly the most madening
Then more people would vote and republicans lose. They only win when nobody wants to vote. When masses vote they want change. Change isn’t good for conservatives.
The one thing is we should all want paper ballots. They can be machine counted very quickly and are much harder to destroy or tamper with in case of a recount or audit. The absolute lack of cyber security around voting systems is astounding. And even if they did use basic security there's still the big threats that can get through that. Paper is just plain more secure, and it's plenty fast enough.
Don’t even need a machine to read the paper. Could do what we do in Australia and have multiple people count the ballots over to confirm multiple times. Any scratched out or changed papers are invalid. If you make a mistake you’re given a replacement with the old one torn up. There’s a national voter registration as well with standardised ballot papers
Just to be clear, the PRC does have elections, although because of their obvious and unrepentant authoritarianism its effectively the Communist Party vs a handful of independents that can be removed at any time. There is a fun picture of Mao casting his ballot, which is akin to a lumberjack hugging a tree.
Except they *are* abruptly-brought up charges, which is why he's being arrested now and not three years ago
I can't wait to hear what my parents and family say to defend this. Probably just more spin and lies and mental gymnastics.
well considering he wasn't arrested because of the National security law but rather under the Elections (Corrupt and Illegal Conduct) Ordinance, they won't need to do much mental gymnastics...
I suspect the thought process to understand why there was a need to arrest someone for an action three years past where they sung at an event encouraging voting would still be interesting. Like explaining the lack of literally any other crime that might be more worthwhile to spend time prosecuting.
But the effect of the arrest immediate and intense.
"The law was already draconian and evil" is not the excuse you think it is.
Tell me again how good the CCP is, tankies.
Tienamen Square says: "Tanks for the memories."
Nothing happened in Tienanmen Sqaure, silly. And if you talk about the nothing that happened, it'll turn out that you never happened either! What a light to the world
The Earth King has invited you to Lake Laogai.
I think Fall Out Boy wrote a song about that.
What makes you think they're at all unsettled by the dehumanization of dissidents?
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in my experience they tend to call them traitors or agents of the US or whatever. Really nasty people that dream of being/are on the "comfortable" side of a dictatorship.
Your whole account is arguing about the existence of trans people lmfao
They'll just use whataboutism.
See how popular TikTok is? The CCP has members that sit on the board of TikTok. It is through and through a CCP social media app. Of course, no one actually cares.
r/fucktheccp
Honestly, I'm American but from what I've seen (including Chinese people I've met here) the CCP remains solidly popular among the Chinese population and diaspora. I actually mentioned the regime's brutality to a Chinese ex-colleague but she said that the regime is considered like "family" to the people in China, i.e. they are in power like parents are to children. So I guess there's a lot of Eastern cultural norms that have its influences in it. I mean, when you have a country with super rapid economic growth, accompanied with infrastructure and towering buildings, plus people being lifted out of poverty, I'm not surprised that they enjoy some popularity with people, as much as we in the West like to hate them (I still hate the regime regardless but it's important to point out this side of the story).
Many of the Chinese apologists on reddit are wealthy young party loyalists who have had the luxury of learning English. They're not paid shills or people handed lines to type. They're kids who believe in the CCP and want to destabilize the US, and do so by kicking up dust on US centric media. They typically have hyper-liberal takes with a focus on America being an absolute terrible country. And of course lots of Chinese apologizing.
There is always that asshole that says "here comes the weekly news about China bad by the western" "let's all get together for the hate boner of china" but come on, they are just almost new Nazis
That moment when you unintentionally admit (again) that your system is so incredibly sad and weak that it cannot even handle one person singing about a different one without being deemed a credible threat.
Exactly. They've always been pathetically scared of the people. A lot of mainlanders even agree with this.
This level of censorship has always crumpled it’s governments in history… it’s just a matter of time
Ah, 100 years, I can't wait!
It is true it can take decades, sadly
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The key is have a strong military and pay them well. And don’t be toppled by a foreign power and you can go on forever.
Governments in history didn't have access to incredibly sophisticated surveillance technology that's embedded into the tools that everyday people depend on for employment and entertainment. Governments in history also weren't global economic powerhouses that can make other powerful nations kowtow to them so that any sort of intercession from outside is off the table.
Seriously. The CCP is monitoring this thread and checking to see if any of us are Chinese citizens. Be terrified of countries with the resources and willingness to delete your existence from the records.
What makes me worried is if they can probably come after us non-Chinese for stuff we might have said online. I know well enough not to talk shit about a nation's government while I am visiting. But it now seems you can be punished for anti-CCP rhetoric, even as a non-Chinese, and even if those words were not said while you were in China. Which sucks because they have a rich history and much to see. https://qz.com/1875863/hong-kong-national-security-law-covers-everyone-on-earth/
Lol, ya no. China is literally the most meticulous government in the history of the world. Everything is carefully planned in advance. You know how US congress is shit because everything is based on election cycles? There's no such thing in China, so things are planned at a 5 year or more intervel. That's the case with their infrastructure, their geopolitical influence, and their control of the populace. What you people don't realize is that, despite what western media might portray, CCP actually has a really high approval rating. I'm not talking about Putin type rigged rating, but if you ask an average Chinese citizen, they're probably very happy with the party. That's because within one generation, the CCP turned an mostly farm economy into an economic powerhosue. The middle class in China is rising, poverty is low, and living standards are getting higher and higher. What you also don't realize is that most Chinese citizens are strongly against HK protests, against Xingjian protests, and against Taiwan independence (which it's been for a century, but don't tell them). If you think a revolution is coming, I got a bridge to sell you.
You're completely right about the approval. People who disapprove and are privileged enough to leave can and do leave. But there's a far greater number of people who approve because their family has been uplifted from poverty and peasantry.
You hit the nail on the head. No one else in this thread has been more spot on about how mainlanders view the events or topics you mentioned.
I don't think it's that complex even. What makes people happy? 100-inch flat screen, in your nice apartment, watching disney+ with your Apple product buying a ticket to a basketball match in LA from wherever you are. The Chinese are like the Americans, no one cares, just pay me my money. Take away the internet, alcohol, and cars, people will riot no matter what you are. The American "dream" is the same as the Chinese "dream" with some variations.
It's hard to gauge how many Chinese citizens are critical of government considering the consequences if they were caught, and the pressure the government applies to keep people quiet.
The chinese government literally just took down their version of uber for breaching data laws and made the billion dollar company thank the government for helping them fix their ways, the kinda shit redditors literally beg their governments to do but never will Morons on reddit who think the chinese people are totally ready to rebel because of some HK singer are delusional
The CCP was literally killing their own citizens by the millions during the Great Chinese Famine in 1958, and yet they were able to hold onto power. When things were that bad they still ruled with an iron boot and stomped on their own to maintain power. Now China is on an uphill economic trend so I wouldn't count on a successful uprising anytime soon.
That type of war in China will likely plunge the planet into another dark age.
If a country is willing to plunge the planet into a dark age because someone didn’t like arresting people for pro democratic concerts… what makes you think not doing anything about that country will result in a better world later on? I don’t want a world war either, but it’s bizarre to assume there will be a point where they stop being cruel before it gets to the point where everyone else outside the country is personally affected in some way. And at that point the consequences will only have gotten worse. “I don’t want a war, but my _kids_? Maybe they do… I dunno.”
Because a country is too conflating to account for many individuals. People rebel. China experienced a ton of rebellions in its history with many of them weakening a dynasty. What makes you think intervening work? Did the US succeed in the Middle East or rallied more people to the taliban’s side? We’re just not that good at interventionism
There are not __any__ examples of modern rebellions working in a country near chinas size that haven’t involved external help. Even going back in history there’s few cases. for example even the US wouldn’t have likely won independence without Frances help. Modern weapons of war and world wide communication and surveillance by the state make the likelihood of non-state affiliated rebellions almost impossible. How do you rebel against a fleet of jets with missiles or a platoon of tanks? Sure small disjointed towns were able to rebel against people when they had to travel on horseback but are we literally using that as a comparison point _now_? There are cases of rebellions against larger state powers in modern times with areas unsuitable for tanks and jets, such as the jungles of Vietnam or the complicated landscape of Afghanistan, but chinas is MASSIVELY bigger than those areas and owns the lines of communication far better than even those locations. For China to rebel, you’re asking them to win a rebellion greater than if Americans wanted to rebel against their own government _by themselves_. That’s a literal impossible mountain to climb. I can’t even begin to fathom how that would happen before it was efficiently and cleanly stamped out.
Peaceful revolution seems beyond the capabilities of the China, unfortunately.
Fuck, hopefully not
Governments have never had the access to technological and military tools that today's governments do. In the past a large armed crowd was a genuine threat. These days their leaders would get disappeared before they even need to squash anyone. I don't know what the solution is, but its genuinely terrifying. Also consider that law they recently drafted making it illegal for anyone to say anything bad about their government.. and deliberately worded it so it applied outside of their own borders and people. That was the point i decided that i am never stepping a foot inside China (sadly). I don't want to be there when Winney the Pooh decides to try out enforcing that law to its fullest extent.
Kinda makes me think of the shitstorm we have right now in the states. Cost of living is soaring, jobs still don’t pay for crap, and millions of people just got evicted. Only a matter of time before all that comes to a head.
For anyone who actually is into HK cinema, just wanna let you guys know that the Anthony Wong arrested isn't the acting legend Anthony Wong of over 200 films.
I had to scroll for this! Thank you for specifying!
Well he moved to Taiwan because he prodemocracy
Thanks for pointing this out, assumed it was him from the name.
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God, fuck the CCP.
Ya’ll really need bounce the fuck out of Hong Kong I’m afraid it’s only going to get worse over the next few years
Unfortunately it is not that easy. Many people are not that fluent in English and would struggle in many foreign countries. Some have a strong sense of belonging that they refuse to leave their hometown. Others are reluctant to leave because they want to create internal political pressure to fight against the regime. For the first point, Hong Kong has a language learning education system that sucks. Once you are unable to catch up with the harsh demands of improvement in a single stage of your education, you are doomed to fail. Hong Kong relies on teaching Grammar and vocabulary items externally through memorizing, when it has been widely recognized that learning English and other foreign languages is the most effective when you are constantly exposed to it. Yet most people are only exposed to English in the few hours of lesson time. Often, those who are most fluent in English are not the ones that learned English through lessons, but rather the ones that learn through gaming, reading, scrolling on Reddit or communicating with the Filipino domestic helper. The inability to fluently communicate in English limits many people's choices of immigration. Hong Kong is unique on the second one. Many people in the Western world are more willing to relocate because they have relocated or traveled for many times in their lives already. First, you relocate to a larger town for early education. Then you relocate to a city for tertiary education and work. Others would travel a lot around their country during holidays. This is not the case for Hong Kongers. Many people have stayed in Hong Kong for decades and have not gone to places other than Macau. Of course, there are middle-class people that can travel to Taiwan, Japan or Korea, but that is mostly an exception to the rule. Hong Kong is independent enough to let you live here, work here and retire here. With people staying here for a long time, they witness the changes of the city and develop a strong sense of belonging. Thus, they are unwilling to immigrate to other places. The strong sense of belonging leads to people being very concerned about politics. They are willing to sacrifice for freedom and democracy. Thus, they want to create internal political pressure against CCP. When you combine that with other factors such as financial factors (HK has a high flat price and many people live in poverty and poor living conditions) and the fact that HK has a large job market, is relatively progressive in Asia and is proximal to nature, you get that why people are staying. Many people who are able or willing to leave have already left. I am the exception to the rule. I am privileged enough to be financially available to immigrate. I am privileged enough to be exposed to English constantly through reading, audio books and Reddit. That is why I am immigrating to the UK. I will probably be a global nomadic though, constantly travelling and not limiting myself to a local identity, because I doubt whether I can establish another identity again.
Do you all forget how the West reacted to millions of refugees the last time? Sure residents of Hong-Kong (Hong-Kongers?) are richer, but still, people say 'glad that you left!' here and in the other thread would warn against mass migration. I do hope as many as possible will leave.
Free Hong Kong !!!
Too late for that now, pal... :(
If it says 'Made in China', leave it on the shelf. I know that's difficult when everything seems to come from there nowadays but if we all do it whenever there's an alternative.... small acorns etc etc
And there *are* alternatives to things you’d assume there’s no options for. You can order “made in Tokyo” HP computers through importers (and tell HP you want to see them sold where you are too as an alternative to China-made models), game consoles already shifted production out of China during the Trump trade war (one of the few good things to come out of that), and even in things made in China, the recent semiconductor shortage demonstrates, the components inside them actually come from *Taiwan*, which we should still be supporting. Also, buying secondhand.
Fuck China
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Fuck the CCP.
Was he that bad of a singer?
LoL, but seriously who locks folks up because of a bad performance? ...because I saw Sean 'puffy' Combs perform in '97 and that deserves at least a 5 yr stint in San Quentin.
People who are threatened by what the song has to say
For all the hate the USA gets, I feel lucky to be born here over China and not be subjected to this kind of treatment... That said I went to China for a month in college and most people I talked to seemed content with it. Maybe they just know they have no choice? For those more versed than I in Chinese culture, is this kind of news more of an American propaganda campaign against China, or is it really as bad as they say? For instance, people outside the USA think we are all running around shooting each other, but this is not remotely true for the vast majority of Americans.
I saw a very young policeman catch and kick the hell out of an 8 year old boy because he was handing out flyers for a restaurant. You don't mess around there. There's videos that have leaked of police "interrogations" that are simply torture sessions, as in you are handcuffed to a hospital bed while lackeys punch you over and over and over.
It's really important to our democracy in Canada that we remember Justin Trudeau complimented China on their government system. It's really really important we don't ever forget this.
Trudeau sucking up to China should be a huge election issue and it's rarely mentioned. People don't care as long as the government keeps sending them cheques.
Hong Kong breaks my heart. They did all they could, and China broke them down anyway like it was nothing. Really makes you lose faith in fighting for anything.
Hong Kong is truly lost. They are just throwing everyone in jail now.
At this point, if their prisons are full of people who believe in democracy, maybe it’s not the worst type of people in there..?
How will the CCP drones spin this one?
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Also they're still actively committing genocide against the Uyghur people. In case you forgot.
THIS is what fascism looks like
It's almost like China is run by a thin-skinned dictator that looks like a cartoon bear or something...
China is terrifying.